When is it proposed to take Fifth Stage?
Companies (Amendment) Bill 2017 [Seanad]: Report and Final Stages
Bill received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."
I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Private Members' Bill, which is intended to establish rights for certain categories of self-employed individuals to be represented by a trade union.
Have we moved off the Companies (Amendment) Bill?
We have moved on to Fifth Stage. The question has been proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."
Will I get an opportunity to speak on it?
Yes, the Deputy will get to do so shortly. I ask Members to indicate if they want to speak. The Minister has commenced her contribution.
She has commenced but it is-----
On a different Bill.
She should be dealing with the Companies (Amendment) Bill.
And so I am.
I ask Members who wish to speak to indicate that they wish to do so. The Minister is speaking to the Companies (Amendment) Bill 2017.
I thank the Deputies for their engagement on this Bill. It was only published at the start of April and it will have passed all Stages in the Houses of the Oireachtas before the end of May. That efficiency is due in large part to the support that many of the Members have given. I appreciate that their support came in part from a belief that companies needed legal certainty and, therefore, that this issue warranted urgent attention. For that reason, I intend to commence this Bill as soon after enactment as possible.
I will be brief because I outlined on earlier Stages that Sinn Féin supports the introduction into Irish law of this Bill. This is a short, technical Bill that will have a positive impact on certain companies doing business in Ireland. It will extend the current expiry date of December 2020 to enable qualifying companies, incorporated in Ireland, to prepare and file financial statements using the US generally accepted accounting principles, GAAP, rather than international financial reporting standards, IFRS. The extension provided for in this legislation is for ten years to December 2030. This continued exemption provides for an ease of doing business in Ireland and spares some companies the associated costs of switching systems.
The Bill also contains a new requirement, namely, that only companies registered in Ireland before its commencement will benefit from its provisions, and I appreciate the inclusion of that requirement in the legislation. It has been included to prevent future inversions, which have had a damaging effect on Ireland’s international reputation. With this extra criteria, extending the deadline until 2030 cannot be seen as Ireland encouraging further inversions. Any measure that benefits Ireland’s international reputation is always welcome.
I met representatives of the Coalition for Irish International Companies a few weeks ago and they are anxious to get this Bill passed to avoid unnecessary financial expenditure if it is delayed. Should the current deadline of 2020 stand, they will need to start their preparations for the alternative straight away.
This Bill was before the Select Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation last week and we moved it through quickly in order to give companies concerned about this issue the reassurance of our commitment to it. I hope the same can be done here tonight.
We oppose this Bill. It essentially allows a sunset clause for companies that have engaged in inversions, which is a tax avoidance strategy by American multinationals, where, through a paper exercise, they switch their headquarters to here in order to avoid tax. It is part of the global tax scam being perpetrated against the citizens of the world by these multinationals, which this country has been actively facilitating. The behaviour of these multinationals in engaging in inversions and other tax scams in quite a shameful manner is the single greatest contributory factor to the spectacular and growing wealth and income inequality across the world. Yet again, as in the case of the double Irish tax mechanism, because we are put under pressure on these matters, we have to finally and very reluctantly do something but we make sure that we provide a get out clause for the companies that have been engaging in this activity to date. It is worth mentioning in passing that the double Irish tax mechanism continues to be utilised by companies such as Google and Facebook. They are still evading their proper tax liabilities. They are using the double Irish tax mechanism because, despite the trumpeted headlines about it being closed down, in reality, it was extended. The companies using the double Irish tax mechanism were allowed, and will continue to be allowed, to do so for a number of years. No doubt as the Minister said, and as alluded to by the previous speaker from Sinn Féin, this legislation will prevent it in the future but, in reality, it is giving them time to find new ways to avoid tax rather than being forced to apply these accounting standards now.
I oppose this because it still facilitates the wider architecture of tax evasion by big multinational companies.
I support this Bill, as I do with anything that tries to facilitate or help accommodate companies. That is welcome and needed. I do not buy into the mantra that we saw with the previous debate with the attack on investments in nursing homes and the tax breaks in that area. We must have incentives to attract these companies. The Minister knows how hard it is to attract companies, especially to rural Ireland. They do not want to come outside Dublin and beggars cannot be choosers. We must try to make our areas attractive to companies so they can have employees there.
In my constituency, all over Tipperary and particularly in the south, we have a large number of employed people. There are nearly 4,000 jobs in Clonmel arising from foreign direct investment. Merck, Sharp and Dohme are there for over 40 years and another investment was announced yesterday, although that is for Carlow and Cork. These are good jobs, with a good infrastructure built up and an amount of contract work and business generated from that. There are also subcontractors that supply the larger industries. If we are to wave the red flag and follow Deputy Boyd Barrett's kind of thinking that they are all-----
Scamming.
I did not interrupt the Deputy.
I am only joking.
That is fine. I know Deputy Bríd Smith has had a fit of laughter tonight but I do not know at what she is laughing. I said in the previous debate that we can hire a minibus for the Deputies to show them rural Ireland and what it is about.
They Deputy should stick to the Bill.
I am doing so. We will show them what rural Ireland is about and the difference made to a town and its society by a small factory brought there by foreign direct investment. It makes a difference to job creation and work experience for young students. There is also investment in the community, along with rates and tax paid by workers. It is not always about the "double Irish" or us being like leprechauns with the luck of the Irish. This is about serious business and having an Ireland that is fit for purpose. It is about having some future for our young people and supporting them.
This legislation is badly needed and we must allow these companies to do business and have confidence that they can do it here. I fear for the day when my colleagues on the hard left - they are so hard now they cannot even feel themselves - are in government as nobody will be left in Ireland only themselves and a few more. No businessmen or young entrepreneur will invest in anything. It will be like the flight of the earls; they will be gone and imithe.
I thank the Minister for her recent visit to Tipperary. I will say again that I hope she will still be in situ next week but whoever is the Minister, the Department will still be there, along with the culture of attracting jobs and having them here, which is necessary and vital. I support the Bill fully.
I have very strong views on this matter. When it comes to foreign investment in our country, if we have to give tax incentives and create a welcoming environment for companies coming here, of course we should do that. If we shut down our borders and say to people looking to invest around the world that we will do nothing to entice them here, we will be left on our own. We must create a welcoming environment. I also thank the Minister for coming to County Kerry, where she had a productive and workpersonlike visit. She saw at first hand very great companies operating in my county that are giving very gainful employment, paying very good wages and doing very well. I thank her for coming to Kerry because she has many places to go to and her visit was very important.
I will cite one example. Deputy Boyd Barrett knows I am very fond of him but at the same time we must agree to disagree on this matter. Many years ago in the great town of Killarney, Mr. Hans Liebherr came to Ireland and he was looking to invest and start the manufacturing cranes. He was brought here and politicians helped and encouraged him in every way they could. The other night I passed the Liebherr factory perhaps between 10 p.m. and 11 p.m. and there were hundreds of cars outside it. There are over 1,000 people directly employed there, not to mention those who are employed indirectly, such as subcontractors, other contractors and hauliers who bring the raw material and leave with the finished product. There are ships that transport it to Europe and the world. If the politicians of the time had not the foresight to entice Mr. Hans Liebherr here, where would those 1,000 people be today below in Killarney and the environs, such as Kilcummin, Sneem, Killorglin or Milltown? They might not have any work. If wages are at one level ordinarily, the wages paid in the factory are at a higher level; it is above the norm. This is because the people working in Liebherr are highly skilled and educated, producing very exceptional goods and selling them around the world.
I hear politicians being critical of tax incentives. One might call it tax evasion but there is such a thing as being tax-prudent and being intelligent about taxes so as to avoid tax. I do not care if a businessman is a farmer, in plant hire or has a shop but if he is prudent about taxes, staying within the law while trying to minimise the tax bill, there is nothing wrong with that. It is legal and it is okay to do so. It is clearly wrong to evade tax and do anything illegal. When I hear politicians being critical of a Minister, perhaps, who might try to entice foreign investment to the country, I would have one question, which is how many people received wages from that politician last week. I look at politicians in this House whom I admire, as well as county councillors in local authorities and Senators but at the back of my head, I am asking how many people are on their payroll and how many people are they employing at home. How many cheques do they write every week and how many houses are they keeping going in their local communities? If a politician is to know the problems of people in business, we must ask how many people he or she is paying every week.
We should ask how big are the profits.
This will be a good judge of how well educated that politician is to discuss the jobs issue. I always hear people saying they are here to represent the working man but outside of politics, they may have never done a day's work in their lives. They certainly may not have paid anybody else to do a day's work in their lives. I do not care if politicians are Labour, Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin or Fine Gael but it is incumbent on every one of us to encourage as many people - from America, Europe or any part of the world - to come here. We must make an environment that is attractive to them so they can provide much-needed jobs to our children and grandchildren, so they can stay working in Ireland. Whether it happens through tax incentives or any other mechanism, I support any Minister who creates that environment. I will stand shoulder to shoulder with any person, regardless of the political party or flag being flown, in that regard. That is all I want to say on this matter. It is so important that we encourage investment into our country.
What about the red flag?
To confirm, as we have on previous Stages, Fianna Fáil will support the Bill. It is vital for the 8,000 highly skilled jobs that have already been mentioned in the Chamber. As we are dependent in some shape or form on the enactment of these provisions, I welcome the manner in which the Bill was progressed in respect of the stakeholder participation, which I believe took place in July 2016. A variety of stakeholders were invited to submit their views. I note that the companies surveyed and the stakeholders involved were unanimously in favour of extending the measure to allow them to report in this way, which is critical.
The wider theme, that is, how we support, facilitate and encourage this ongoing activity in the Irish market by the US and, in particular, multinationals is key to our whole industrial policy and has been for many years. It brings to mind one thought on a similar vein. The FDA agency is not represented in Ireland. There may be an argument to be made for it to be given a kind of embassy or outpost here, which would facilitate those multinational corporations and American companies that are investing in Ireland, particularly the pharma industry, which is also critical to our industrial policy. This might be something to consider.
The legal certainty provided by this measure is long overdue. The companies caught in the crux of this issue have been exposed to this question in recent years. We are aware that many countries in the EU have already adopted these measures, including France, the UK, Switzerland, the Czech Republic and Germany. In particular, when we consider the UK, Brexit and the post-Brexit landscape, it is clear we are actively in competition for jobs with our closest companion, our English-speaking neighbour, which is within the same zone at present. Therefore, it is particularly important we have clarity and certainty and reach out to those companies that may make investment decisions in the next few months and few years as we face into a post-Brexit landscape. It is also important we have certainty and clarity as to how these 8,000 jobs and the companies that support them are protected. I note that my party indicated it would table an amendment on Report Stage in respect of this measure. I think the Government was considering the statutory audits Bill as a possible alternative. I do not think that would have been sufficient because it would have delayed the process further and would not have brought the certainty required. I, therefore, welcome the fact the Government has now taken this Bill on board and is at the stage at which it is ready to conclude the legislative process.
I wish to address a few very general points made in the debate about the value of enterprise and the role it plays in the wider economy. This is critical because without enterprise, where would we create the income that funds public services? There is a philosophical debate at play there. It is a very fundamental principle: without income, there can be no expenditure. That is fundamental to this Bill as to so many other pieces of legislation in this area. This is how we draw the finance to fund the public services that are so important. We need measures of this kind to support enterprise and these kinds of industrial players. One would not succeed without the other. We support the Bill.
I add my voice to those supporting the Bill. As a member of the Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, I have met the stakeholders involved in this. Obviously, we want to continue creating a stable environment for these organisations so that they stay here and make a home in Ireland, in particular against the backdrop of Brexit and the uncertainty it brings. When any of these organisations consider a country such as Ireland, they seek business stability, political stability and environmental stability. Whatever we can do, we need to concretise that certainty.
I do not believe for a second the speculation that this gives companies more time to find ways to evade tax because, as was mentioned, if one is prudent about one's accounts, one will try to maximise one's potential as best one can within the law. We are a competitive nation regarding tax - we had to be. We were in the doldrums for years. We had to consider alternative ways of providing employment and educating our citizens. I feel very strongly about this, having worked in multinational organisations.
I ask the House to consider the period from the late 1980s to the early 1990s. In the small village where I am from, one person might have gone to university. These multinational organisations facilitated more people to go to university because it was seen as a benefit of the job to be educated through one's job, and these organisations paid for that education. These people went on to form domestic companies afterwards and became employers in their own right. We have seen this when travelling throughout the world. These people hold positions throughout the world and have experience in other, sister organisations. I ask the House to take Dell as an example. People went to Austin for five years, came back to Limerick, set up their own businesses or returned to work in Dell. There has been huge development in this regard and these companies have been huge education drivers. This is, therefore, much broader than just the economic side of things; it has a social implication as well.
I hear the words of the hard left on this and I understand it is an ideological view but I never hear how, if what the hard left suggests were to happen, the transition from one part to the other would happen. I have never heard anything about a transition in this regard. I understand I am ideologically poles apart from the hard left when it comes to this. We may have some similarities on social issues, but this is something I feel extremely strongly about. I ask the House to take Limerick, my own county, as an example. Since 2011, when we were in the depths of a recession, and since the previous Government came into office, the likes of Northern Trust has been increasing its workforce. There were wastelands with factories which have now been taken over. There is the likes of Regeneron, which has come in with 300 or 400 jobs. I was speaking to someone on Sunday about this. There is the likes of DesignPro in Rathkeale, a small town in the middle of County Limerick where my office is located. DesignPro employs up to 90 people. There is Ortec, which is coming to Newcastle West, one of the major towns of County Limerick. Ortec is providing 110 jobs. These people have to make a living. The 100 cars outside at night were mentioned. This is what will keep us going. This is what sustainability means. This is what we are talking about. The bottom line is jobs, and this is an area in which we can compete extremely well and one in which we need to continue competing.
I do not want the word to go out to the wider world that there is some kind of witch-hunt going on with these companies. We want to keep them here. They provide employment and education through their benefits, and the innovation side of these companies is driving education as well. I am delighted to support the Bill.
Well said.
First, I need to put on the record that this is not about tax; it is about how companies report their financial affairs.
That is closely linked to tax.
My second point is something I have been waiting a long time to say to Deputy Boyd Barrett.
He needs to go to Sandyford Industrial Estate and see the thousands of people working there. I bet he has no idea how many people work there.
I have been there quite a few times.
Approximately 25,000 work there.
I have been there quite a few times.
Hold on. Approximately 25,000 people work there, many of whom are Deputy Boyd Barrett's constituents, and he comes in here and insults multinationals and foreign direct investment. Every time he does so, he does so in a derogatory tone.
Hear, hear.
I have spent the past year trying to make sure foreign direct investment companies come to our country and into regional and rural areas, which was devastated and about which Deputy Boyd Barrett sometimes has no idea. He does not have a clue about these companies. He talks about jobs. Jobs are for people. These are young people trying to start a life and set up or buy a home and they need jobs. Many of these people do not rely on social housing. They want to go out and earn and try to make sure they can rear their families. In Seapoint Rugby Club - Deputy Boyd Barrett represents that area and those people as well - for many people in my sons' age group, there was not even a rugby team left because they all had to leave this country. There is approximately-----
Despite the tax breaks.
You guys can shake your heads-----
Give them tax breaks and they will come.
-----but 400 people are coming back every week to take up jobs, many of which are in foreign direct investment companies. Deputy Boyd Barrett may not know that there are 130,000 people employed in US foreign direct investment companies-----
I do know that.
-----in Ireland. He probably does not know that people who worked-----
I do know.
No, you do not know.
The Minister, without interruption, please.
Keep going, Minister.
You do not have a clue, actually.
I ask Deputies to speak through the Chair.
Do I not know that?
I wish to make one last point.
The Minister knows a lot about what I do not know.
Some 50% of people who work in foreign direct investment companies - Deputy Boyd Barrett can sneer because he does not give a hoot about the working man or the working woman, if you ask me. They earn 50%-----
Jesus, it is getting very personal in here, Acting Chairman.
I have the floor.
They earn 50% more than people in our other companies.
Deputy Boyd Barrett, when you were speaking the Minister did not interrupt you. I ask you to allow her to make her case and please address the Chair.
He did not personalise it.
I did not personalise it though.
I am telling Deputy Boyd Barrett about his constituency. He needs to know that the majority of mothers and fathers I know want their children to go out and get jobs. There are multinationals and foreign direct investment companies supplying 200,000 jobs for 200,000 people.
Just last week, so that Deputies know, we had a trade mission within Ireland. We brought our indigenous companies to meet foreign direct investment companies in Ireland. We felt if they did more business together in this country, everyone could win. Foreign direct investment companies would win because they would have a good supply chain from indigenous companies. The indigenous companies could get more trade. I know "trade" is a terrible word for the hard left, but trade and profit create jobs.
I am trying to give Deputies a lesson in economics because people need jobs, and foreign direct investment companies supply jobs. The Bill is not about tax. If Deputies read it, they would know it was about how companies report their financial affairs.
It is about accounting.
Is the Bill agreed?
Will the Deputies claiming a division please rise?
Deputies Richard Boyd Barrett, Thomas P. Broughan, Gino Kenny, Thomas Pringle and Bríd Smith rose.
As fewer than ten Members have risen I declare the question carried. In accordance with Standing Order 70 the names of the Deputies dissenting will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Dáil.
Question declared carried.
A message shall be sent to the Seanad acquainting it accordingly.