Topical Issue Debate

Social and Affordable Housing

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I want to discuss the availability of Fingal County Council lands in Dunsink Lane for social and affordable housing and the positive effects that this would deliver and ask why we have sat on these lands for so many years when there is such a crisis in housing. For many years, I have been concerned at Fingal County Council's lack of action in regard to Dunsink Lane and have raised it consistently. There are approximately 1,000 acres of land in this environ, 300 acres of which is owned by Fingal County Council, 200 acres is part of the old tip head and 150 acres takes in Dunsink Observatory and surrounding lands. The rest is privately owned.

Fingal County Council is currently conducting an overall study of this area, which is included in its development plan. There is potential to build between 4,500 and 12,000 social and affordable housing units on these lands, depending on density. One benefit of developing this area is that it is virtually a greenfield site, of which we do not have many, with a number of Traveller-specific accommodation units contained within it which can also be enhanced, delivering a decent quality of life to all in an inclusive way.

The city centre is only 4 km away. Dunsink Lane also contains vital road links between Finglas and Castleknock. The new Luas is located nearby at Broombridge. Dunsink Observatory and Elmfield golf course are currently not accessible from Finglas as a massive concrete block has been placed across the road, something that should never have happened. This ought to be removed immediately, with a new road built and a new bridge to accommodate it.

Other local amenities and advantages include its proximity to the M50 and to the Royal Canal, allowing the extension of the cycling area. It would also provide access to the Phoenix Park and the Tolka Valley Park, a beautiful new park, which runs alongside the River Tolka on the other side of where this proposed development would be located. Blanchardstown shopping centre and industrial parks also border on this area.

It is an area that has been neglected for many years. It unquestionably has great potential and would make a considerable dent in resolving the housing crisis. It would also help to alleviate the considerable traffic congestion between Finglas and Cabra and between Castleknock and Finglas. The blocking-off of that road has been an ongoing problem for many years, and has proved disastrous for the whole area. Traffic lines up from Broombridge right into Finglas and a similar problem arises on the other side, at the Cabra end.

This proposed project needs resources and a will to deliver them. There are considerable advantages in doing this. The land belongs to the local authority, Fingal, and if we ever needed a project capable of delivering large numbers of social and affordable housing units, this is it and this is the place where it can be delivered. For many of my childhood years, I lived in this lane and played in these fields.

It is a massive place with beautiful surroundings. It has huge potential and I ask the Minister of State to talk to Fingal County Council to see whether we can get a project and money and see whether it is deliverable.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government (Deputy John Paul Phelan)

I thank Deputy Ellis. I am not as familiar as he is with the land around Dunsink, but I know it slightly. The Government recognises the housing affordability pressures faced by many households, particularly in certain parts of the country. It is for this reason that the overarching objective of Rebuilding Ireland is to increase the supply of new homes to 25,000 per annum by 2020. In particular, the aim is to increase the supply of high quality social and affordable homes from State and privately held lands to buy or rent as quickly as possible in areas where demand is greatest.

Critically, €5.35 billion in Exchequer investment has been secured to deliver 47,000 social housing homes through build, refurbishment, acquisitions and leasing over the period to 2021. This level of national funding to implement Rebuilding Ireland's targets means that funding is available to all local authorities to advance their housing delivery. This year, 4,500 new social housing homes will be delivered through new builds, acquisitions and refurbishments, and a significant proportion of these will involve new construction. Taking the Fingal area alone, there are 912 new homes at various stages of the approval process.

With regard to active land management, the Department, working with local authorities and the Housing Agency, has collated details of local authority lands acquired for housing purposes. To this end, details of 1,700 ha of land in local authority and Housing Agency ownership were published in April on the Rebuilding Ireland housing land map, with the aggregate potential to deliver 42,500 homes nationally. All local authorities, including Fingal County Council, are preparing strategic development and management plans for their housing lands, with particular emphasis on prioritising those sites with the most potential to deliver housing at scale in the short to medium term.

I understand that the site in question at Dunsink Lane is not currently part of the housing land map as it includes the former landfill site, and as such was not acquired by the council for housing purposes. However, as part of the active land management process, local authorities have been asked to confirm that the data published on the housing land map is fully up to date, and to ensure that any additional sites suitable for housing are included. This should be an iterative and live process, and as other lands are identified and become available they should be added to the map.

In its county development plan 2017-2023, adopted in March 2017, Fingal County Council recognises the strategic location and development potential of the lands at Dunsink. However, it also notes significant road, wastewater and other infrastructural constraints that require further detailed investigation so as to inform any future decision to zone the overall Dunsink area for a mixed-use urban area. The council has committed to carrying out a feasibility study to identify the necessary physical infrastructure required to realise the full development potential of the wider Dunsink lands and the Department will, of course, be happy to engage with the council as it progresses this work.

Last week the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, announced a second round of the local infrastructure housing activation fund, introduced by the then Minister, Deputy Coveney, a number of years ago. Looking at this for the first time in the past day or so, I see the Dunsink area might be a suitable location for some of this infrastructural funding to be spent. I also note that Fingal County Council has not yet brought forward additional sites for development of social housing at scale. However, there is a site at Wellview in Mulhuddart, which is considered to be the most advanced site of scale in Fingal County Council's housing land portfolio as things stand. The council has flagged that Dunsink is an area of strategic importance for its new development plan, and it is drawing up the strategic plan I mentioned. The Department is engaging with it in this process. In fairness to the point made by the Deputy, it is just over four miles from the city centre. It sounds like an area very suitable for development, but there are a couple of hurdles that the local authority and the Department must overcome first before those decisions can be made.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

What I find very frustrating in all of this is I have been raising this with Fingal County Council for years and we have had study after study. What we are looking at is a new study to see what is suitable. The Minister of State mentioned Dunsink tip head, but that is 200 acres on the opposite side of the road to where we are speaking about, which is 300 acres. This is bigger than the Mulhuddart site. This is a massive amount of land and it is a greenfield area. It is an area where we would not run into the same problems with lot of residents in terms of trying to get planning. For many years we have ignored it. We also have the potential of putting in a lot of projects there, including in the Dunsink tip head area. We have a horse and pony project. We have also spoken about having a track for bikes on it. A raft of amenities can be put in the general area.

The fact this land is available is constantly ignored. It was acquired a number of years ago through a compulsory purchase order as a result of people settling on the land. It is there and ready for people to take advantage of it. We should be saying the infrastructure fund is there and asking the council what it can do and whether it can deliver on this. Can we speed up the process and look at these lands? In one fell swoop we could clear an awful lot of the problems in terms of housing. The delivery of housing on that site alone would be massive. We would have, hopefully, social and affordable housing and affordable rents on the site because it is ideal. They are prime lands with amenities left, right and centre around the area. There is also access to a lot of facilities. It makes it an ideal site.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I will contact Fingal County Council. I was there a couple of weeks ago in Swords with the manager and senior officials. I will certainly contact them. I was not aware of the full extent of the landholding until this was brought up. There is also, in terms of the planning laws, the necessity for a local area plan to be adopted before the houses can be constructed but that could happen pretty quickly. It is an absolute requirement that local people have a right to have an input into zoning issues in lands in their own area, but that process can happen also. I will speak to the officials in Fingal about where they stand at present with the commitment they have given to the Department to carry out the feasibility study to which I referred earlier, and I will get back to the Deputy.

Hospital Waiting Lists

Deputy Frank O'Rourke

I welcome the opportunity to raise this issue to the Chamber again and discuss it with the Minister of State. I discussed a similar issue with her last week. It is important that we make progress on these issues. The length of time that patients wait for adult spinal surgery and orthopaedic surgery is unacceptable. Each time we raise this issue in the Chamber we are given a commitment that it will be dealt with comprehensively and that waiting lists will be reduced, but since I raised this issue previously the waiting lists have gone in the other direction. The issues I will deal with specifically relate to Tallaght hospital and the statistics refer to one particular senior surgeon. The figures are not for a multiple of surgeons, and if they were they would be dramatically worse. These are accurate statistics for the outpatient list of one particular surgeon working directly with Tallaght hospital. At present, he has 500 patients on an outpatient list at Tallaght hospital. Of these, 170 need surgery. In addition to this, he deals with referrals from a hospital in my constituency, Naas General Hospital, which deals with north Kildare in particular. He also deals with referrals coming from other hospitals in Dublin and the midlands. If we were to combine all of these other referrals and the other surgeons, we can appreciate the extent of the list, how long it is and the length of time people wait, which is completely unacceptable.

When I raised this in October last year and again in May this year, and looked for the required and requested investment, I was given a somewhat positive response that it would happen but, unfortunately, I am raising the matter again this evening because no progress is being made.

We want to acknowledge the management, surgeons and front-line staff in Tallaght hospital, who are working tirelessly with restricted and limited resources to try to deal with this issue. Its impact on people's lives is very significant, in a negative way. It is affecting their well-being and mental health. The pain and suffering they are experiencing is quite extensive, as the Minister of State can appreciate. It is affecting their ability to deal with everyday life. It is clearly very difficult and it is impinging on them in a very negative way. When people are suffering like this, it results not only in trauma for them and their families, but it also has a negative effect on their contribution to society generally. Owing to waiting, they can do only what they are able to do rather than what they want to do.

Currently, the routine waiting time is 38 months. If one is on a routine waiting list seeking to go to Tallaght hospital to have adult spinal surgery, the waiting time is 38 months. The target is from three to six months. If one's case is urgent, the waiting period is 23 months, and the target is one to two months. At present, Tallaght hospital is hiring or renting theatre space from the Beacon Clinic for one day per week. That confirms the lack of resources, theatre space and infrastructure required in Tallaght hospital. It is an admission that it is not geared up to do what is required. It does not have the theatre space or necessary infrastructure. The crux of the problem is that the required facilities are not in place. I have been asking the Minister for some time to invest in this theatre to deal with the waiting lists and get them under control. There is a lack of central funding. This funding is urgently needed in Tallaght Hospital so these waiting lists can be got under control and so people can have control and regain quality of life, which they certainly do not have at present.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Catherine Byrne)

I thank the Deputy for this Topical Issue matter. Unfortunately the Minister, Deputy Harris, cannot be present so he has asked me to reply. I will refer to one of the issues he raised in a little while.

Tallaght hospital is part of the Dublin Midlands Hospital Group, and the hospital is the principal provider of elective orthopaedics in the group. The hospital's spinal orthopaedic service provides emergency and elective access for a varying degree of acute and degenerative spinal conditions with a tertiary referral base. No spinal surgery is performed at Naas General Hospital.

The Minister acknowledges that waiting times are often unacceptably long and is conscious of the burden that this places on patients and their families. Reducing waiting times for the longest-waiting patients is one of this Government's key priorities. Consequently, budget 2018 announced a total allocation of €55 million for the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, for 2018. This allocation more than doubles the 2017 total allocation, which was €20 million.

Early planning for tackling waiting lists in 2018 is key. This funding will enable the provision of treatment for 18,000 inpatient-day case patients across a range of specialties, including spinal surgery, and procedures. The NTPF will work with both public and private hospitals in order to acquire treatment for these patients. Additional funding of €10 million in 2018 will be dedicated to addressing other waiting lists, including for children in need of scoliosis procedures.

Building on the momentum achieved in 2017, planning for 2018 is ongoing by the HSE and the NTPF. The organisations will work together to develop a coherent 2018 waiting list action plan. This approach is to ensure a seamless continuation of this year's work on addressing waiting lists into next year.

It is worth noting that 2017 has seen the HSE and NTPF make inroads into the inpatient-day case waiting lists and they are well on target to have removed 29,000 patients from our waiting lists by the end of October. To ensure the continuation of this strong focus, additional funding in the region of €10 million has been allocated for the remainder of 2017. This will fund patient treatment across a range of key specialties and procedures, such as those for hips, knees and cataracts, and also for ear, nose and throat and others.

Outpatient waiting lists remain a challenge, however. Over 92,000 patients have come off the waiting list so far this year but there remain almost 500,000 patients on the OPD waiting list nationally as of the end of last week. Outpatient waiting lists do not lend themselves to outsourcing initiatives because the full episode of care would have to be outsourced. The NTPF has advised, however, that it will seek to commission treatment on a see-and-treat basis, which could be used to assist with the management of OPD waiting times.

I assure the Deputy that the significant increase in funding to the NTPF reflects the ongoing commitment of this Government to reducing waiting times for the longest waiting patients. Next year will see a continued focus on our longest waiting patients and overall waiting list numbers, including access to spinal surgery at Tallaght Hospital.

On the Deputy's question on the number of people being referred by the surgeon in Tallaght Hospital, I do not have any information but I will certainly revert to the Deputy. I will ask the Minister whether he will consider specifically the case of the 500 on the surgeon's list, 170 of whom need surgery. I have no specifics on this for the Deputy at present.

Deputy Frank O'Rourke

I acknowledge the Minister of State is filling in for the Minister. I met the Minister in June or July of this year and raised this issue, among others. It is disappointing that we are not able to have a full debate on it here. It is not a matter of having the post mortem but agreeing on a strategy to deliver and make progress. With respect, the answer given covered the proposals dealing with outpatients, surgeries and procedures in general but it was not specific to adult spinal surgery or orthopaedics, which represent a massive issue. I am focusing on this issue because it is so urgent and important.

What is required is a €4 million investment. When I spoke with the senior surgeon, I noted this was costed. What the hospital is seeking is a €4 million investment in providing the theatres, the necessary facilities and infrastructure in Tallaght hospital to allow it deal properly, strategically and in an orderly manner with reducing the waiting lists once and for all. That is what I sought 12 months ago and in May and July. That is what I am seeking today. We need a commitment on that because the lack of funding is the problem.

The Minister of State talked about the NTPF. We acknowledge that because putting funding into it in 2017 and increased funding 2018 was part of the confidence and supply agreement. The reality is that, based on how it is being managed or channelled, it is having zero impact on the waiting lists. Figures show that people on the routine list must wait 38 months, yet the aspiration is three to six months. An urgent case - it could be a family member or someone who comes to the Minister of State's own constituency office - must wait 23 months although the target is from one to two months. This is the crux of the matter. It needs to be addressed and we need to bring forward proposals to deliver solutions and results so the people who are suffering can receive the treatment they need and get their lives back on track and so they do not have to wait 36 or 38 months for routine surgeries to make them mobile again and let them have some quality of life.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I have taken note of the Deputy's concerns and I will certainly raise them with the Minister. Maybe my reply was not specifically dealing with some of the issues the Deputy raised. A permanent spinal consultant took a post on 17 September 2017. Some 50% of the consultant's capacity is already dealing with immediate, emergency and urgent spinal cases. Tallaght Hospital is in the process of completing its theatre reconfiguration to facilitate a dedicated spinal theatre and address the question of the future appointment of a spinal consultant in 2018. I will certainly raise the specific issue concerning the surgeon. If the Deputy gives me his or her details, I will certainly pass them on to the Minister and bring to his attention again the urgent needs of 179 patients on the surgeon's list and the fact that they need to be seen to urgently.

Deputy Frank O'Rourke

The investment is critical.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I have that down here.

Credit Union Regulation

Deputy Michael Moynihan

I thank the Office of the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this very important issue of the floor of the Dáil. Just after noon on Friday, liquidators were appointed to Charleville credit union. That was a huge shock to the people of Charleville and its hinterland. We should consider a number of issues in terms of how the liquidator was appointed. The timing is one such issue. The notification came in the early afternoon on Friday when many people would have their wages paid into their accounts on Thursday night and pensioners would have had their pensions paid in on Friday. An entire cohort of people has not been able to access their weekly wages or other funds on the Friday. The powers that be, in this case the Central Bank, should examine the situation and how the liquidation process was executed.

Charleville credit union had been working extremely hard in recent times to try to get out of a very difficult situation. The board of the now former credit union was working extremely hard with the Central Bank. The Central Bank said Charleville credit union was not insolvent. The situation is very difficult for people in Charleville to swallow given that the credit union was founded many years ago and provided an extensive service to people within the community. Many business people told me over the weekend how their funds in the credit union have been frozen. Reference has been made to guaranteed funds but many businesses had to resort to their own resources to keep them going and to provide cash to pay their employees last Friday afternoon. People were told it would take 21 working days before any moneys would be paid out which means people would be starved of access to money for the next three weeks to a month. That is simply not acceptable.

We could have a lengthy debate on how we came to the pass that was reached last Friday afternoon and how Charleville credit union was prevented from expanding or trading itself out of the difficulties in which it found itself. The board and staff of the credit union made significant sacrifices to try to put it in a good place. The question is where we go from here. We have no credit union services within the town and hinterland of Charleville. The credit union had 12,000 members. Today is 17 October. What plan is in place? Are the liquidators now going to wait for 21 days before giving money back to people? That would starve the community of resources in the shape of their own funds. As Councillor Ian Doyle said this morning on the radio many small and medium businesses and small traders will be adversely affected and the town of Charleville will be devastated. Will the Minister of State outline the plans of the Department and the Central Bank to make sure there is a functioning credit union in Charleville in the short term? I am not talking about the long-term future.

I am a major supporter of the credit union movement and the work it has done in every community, urban and rural, especially in Charleville. In the run up to the very busy Christmas period if we leave a void in terms of the credit union in Charleville we will force people to resort to moneylenders and all of the negativity that surrounds them. What are the plans of the Department and the Central Bank to deal with the situation?

There is a meeting in Charleville this evening to allow local people to air their concerns. People are right to be worried. If the Minister of State will pardon the pun, we need to see the colour of his money at this stage. We want to see what is envisaged for Charleville and its environs.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I am responding to this issue on behalf of the Minister for Finance who wishes to thank Deputy Michael Moynihan for raising it. This is primarily a matter for the Central Bank but the Minister is fully aware of the strength of feeling locally about the situation in Charleville credit union and the restoration of credit union services. In terms of credit unions, the role of the Minister for Finance is to ensure that the legal framework for credit unions is appropriate for the effective operation and supervision of credit unions.

The Registrar of Credit Unions at the Central Bank is the independent regulator for credit unions. Within his independent regulatory discretion, the registrar acts to support the prudential soundness of individual credit unions, to maintain sector stability and to protect the savings of credit union members. Where issues arise within individual credit unions, the Central Bank gives them time to implement remedial actions, including potential mergers. In the case of Charleville credit union the Central Bank has been engaging with it over a number of years seeking remediation of the weaknesses in its financial position. As the Deputy is aware, Charleville credit union had been exploring a number of different options in recent years and has explored merger discussions which have not been successful.

The view of the Central Bank is that the inability of the credit union to address its reserve position, despite previous receipt of external funding, has resulted in it being necessary to apply for the winding up of the credit union. As the Central Bank, acting as independent regulator, is closest to the detail of this case it would be difficult for the Minister for Finance to second guess its expert opinion.

The Central Bank of Ireland made an ex parte application to the High Court on 13 October 2017. The High Court approved the appointment of joint provisional liquidators, David O'Connor and Jim Hamilton of BDO, to Charleville credit union. The Central Bank took this action in order to ensure the protection of members’ funds. In presenting its assessment to the court, the Central Bank outlined that it believes all feasible options available to Charleville credit union to raise and maintain its reserves at the levels required by law have been exhausted. The joint provisional liquidators will oversee the closure and wind-down of the credit union pending a final decision of the court. The credit union will not reopen and all issues relating to the wind-down of services will be managed by the joint liquidators.

The Minister for Finance can advise the Deputy that the deposit guarantee scheme, DGS, has been invoked and that members' savings are covered by the scheme up to €100,000 per member. Compensation payments will automatically issue by cheque to all duly verified depositors. The payments will be made as early as possible within the statutory deadline of 20 working days.

The Minister for Finance can further advise that the Central Bank is conscious that there is a demand for the services of a credit union in the local area and will examine what arrangements can be put in place to provide specific credit union services in the Charleville community in the future. The Central Bank is keen that credit union services are available to the people of Charleville. In some cases members may currently be able to avail of services in another credit union in the area as the common bond may extend into their locality or through their place of work.

The Government recognises the important role of credit unions as a volunteer co-operative movement in the country and while the roles of the Minister for Finance and the Central Bank in relation to the credit union sector are distinct, they are both working to protect members' savings and maintain the financial stability and well-being of credit unions generally. The Government is absolutely determined to continue to support a strengthened and growing credit union movement into the future. I will try to ascertain from the Central Bank what specific proposals it has and a timeframe for them in relation to the establishment of new credit union facilities in Charleville.

Deputy Michael Moynihan

I know what is in the reply. We could debate for the entire night why we have come to this position and whether the approach taken was heavy handed, but at this point what people are discussing tonight in Charleville is what is the future of a credit union service in Charleville. Saying the Government supports the credit union movement will not cut it. I seek a meeting with the Department of Finance tomorrow and I will also seek a meeting with the Central Bank to discuss how we will fill the void in Charleville, and how we will have a functioning credit union service available to the people there who have supported the credit union since the very start.

Could the Minister of State go back to the Department and the Central Bank? He accepted that there was a demand for a the services of a credit union in the local area and will examine what arrangements can be put in place. I would have thought the Central Bank would have examined what arrangements could be put in place to provide credit union services prior to putting the credit union into liquidation. I accept that there is a commitment that something will be done but that should have been done prior to last Friday. We need to have a functioning credit union within the Charleville area.

A period of 21 days is not acceptable. I cannot see why this cannot be done in two, three or four days. Everything is computerised to the absolute limit and all the facts are available. People's cash – their hard-earned money – is tied up. People need money to survive in their day-to-day lives. It is not acceptable to have pensions, salaries or anything else, whether belonging to individuals or small traders, tied up within the liquidators. I appeal to the Minister of State to give the matter the serious consideration it needs. To be honest, the people of Charleville and its surrounds deserve better. They deserve to have their money and to have a functioning credit union.

I appeal to the Minister of State not to leave a void in respect of other lending services having to come in and deal with the aftermath of this in three, four, five or six months' time. When will there be a service in place? When will the cash be delivered back to its rightful owners? I am seeking a full meeting with the Department of Finance tomorrow or Thursday morning to ascertain what is happening. This is far too serious.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I was writing the questions down as the Deputy asked them. I will endeavour to get answers to those questions, which are reasonable enough. However, I would point out that, in the first instance, it is the responsibility of the board of the credit union to operate its activities and to operate within the law.

The Central Bank took a decision on this question after several years of engagement. I do not believe it was a decision that was taken lightly. However, I understand the Deputy's point. I have had no direct contact with the Central Bank on this issue in respect of whether it made definitive plans on what credit union facilities would be available in Charleville. The first responsibility of the Central Bank is to protect deposit holders and the actions on Friday were on foot of that. However, I will do my best to ensure that we get a response to the questions the Deputy has put before we leave on Thursday.

Pension Provisions

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The next topical issue is in the names of Deputies Broughan, Clare Daly and Jack Chambers. Each Deputy has one minute.

Deputy Clare Daly

I know Deputy Chambers cannot be here, so can we have two minutes each? It would only be the same as the length of the Minister's reply.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will give you a minute and a half each.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Last Wednesday, my colleague, Deputy Clare Daly, hosted a briefing by members of the Aer Lingus supplementary pension scheme, known as the second scheme, to discuss the serious issues that have emerged relating to the wind-up of the scheme. I attended the briefing. I understand that up to 2,500 workers and pensioners are entitled to a share of the €106 million pension fund, known as Pot B or the Second Scheme, that is currently being wound up.

Members of the scheme raised concerns when they began receiving letters detailing their allocations. They soon realised that there did not appear to be any rhyme or reason to the method of distribution of funds. The distribution had been decided without consultation by the trustees, Irish Pensions Trust.

The second Aer Lingus supplementary scheme was in operation from 2007 to 2014. Aer Lingus paid 4% of pensionable salary on behalf of employees and employees paid 2% in all. Additionally, the Government provided €34 million from the sale of Aer Lingus. It is striking to note the decline in the value of the fund by €2 million to 31 March 2016 and the fact that administrative expenses increased by over 100% between 2015 and the wind-up. When the wind-up was mooted, members believed they would receive their allocated contributions and a fixed percentage of the performance of the scheme, but that has not happened. There has been a total lack of consultation with members. The proposed distribution seems erratic, inconsistent with the principles of the scheme and totally unfair on many members. Deputy Daly gave several examples when she raised the matter with the Taoiseach some days ago.

On behalf of constituents I am calling on the trustees and the regulatory authorities, the Pensions Authority and the Pensions Ombudsman, to investigate the distribution of the second scheme and to explain why no other options were afforded to members, as is usual in many other schemes. Moreover, I want them to explain the accounting and actuarial basis on which the distribution calculation is based. I call on the Minister to ensure such an investigation takes place.

Deputy Clare Daly

I know Deputies Chambers and Darragh O'Brien were keen to be here today. They would be singing very much from the same hymn sheet as us on this matter.

This is urgent because the wind-up of the financial interest of the scheme is under way. The scheme was in existence for eight years. As Deputy Broughan has said, workers paid in an average 6% per head, including the employer contribution. A further €34 million was put into the kitty beforehand. The benefits objective was discretionary and there is no requirement for the method that is being used by the trustees now to be implemented. Moreover, there is no impediment to the trustees changing their minds.

What has really aggrieved people is the unilateral decision making. It means every group of people involved in the scheme is being affected. For example, for 394 current pensioners of the scheme, the average weekly benefit comes to 45 cent per week. The trustees propose to buy annuities for this group of pensioners out of their interests. However, annuities are exceptionally pricy at the moment. It would be far better for them to have the purchase of approved retirement funds.

In the case of deferred members, the trustees want to buy pre-retirement bonds, most likely, with one of the big insurance companies. The trustees have advised that if a member wants to transfer out of the pre-retirement bonds that the trustee has chosen, there will be a fee to opt out. There have been no discussions whatsoever.

As we discussed last week, there has been incredibly unfair distribution of the financial interest. People of a similar age who have made similar financial contributions will be subject to major differences in returns. As I said last week, one class can put in €10,000 and get back €12,000, while another can put in €22,000 and get back €84,000. There is a method in place, but it is an unfair method. We urge and hope the Minister and the Department can intervene with the Pensions Authority in respect of these matters.

Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection (Deputy Regina Doherty)

I thank the Deputies present and those Deputies absent as well. I know it is a particularly rife issue in the environs of Aer Lingus and the constituencies that touch it.

I wish to outline that the trustees of any scheme have duties and responsibilities under trust law, other relevant legislation and the Pensions Act 1990, as amended. The duties of pension scheme trustees include administering the trust in accordance with the law and the terms of the trust deed. Consequently, any decisions made by corporate or individual trustees of an occupational pension scheme are governed by the relevant legislation.

Trustees have a basic obligation to carry out their duties in accordance with the law and the terms of the trust deed and rules. Most important, they are obliged to act in the best interests of all scheme beneficiaries, whether deferred, active or those receiving a pension - this is probably what is most relevant to this case.

An active member who is elected as a trustee has to act in the best interests of all members. If there is a conflict of interest, then the person's duty as a trustee must take precedence over other interests. If it is considered that benefits due are not being paid in accordance with the rules of a pension scheme, the member concerned can invoke the dispute resolution process and procedures that the scheme is obliged to operate. If the member is still dissatisfied, she can bring the complaint to the Pensions Ombudsman or the Pensions Authority.

I trust Deputies appreciate that, in my position, I cannot comment or intervene directly in the pension arrangements applying to a particular scheme. However, where issues that cause concern relating to a particular scheme are raised with me, as in this case, I can notify the Pensions Authority and ask those responsible to intercede. I wish to confirm for the Deputies present and absent that the matter relating to this particular scheme has been raised with my Department. In turn, we have raised it with the Pensions Authority, which has agreed to examine it and come back to us with a report. The Pensions Authority will assess if there has been a legal breach of obligations and take any necessary action if such a breach has been found.

Although the Pensions Authority is under the aegis of my Department, it regulates pension schemes entirely independently of the Department. Therefore, I am not in a position to influence or comment on the matter, the process or the length of time it will take. I can say that when this concern was brought to authority officials last week they were happy to intervene and address the concerns to the trustees. We await a response. I hope that clarifies the matter for the Deputies.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I welcome what the Minister has said in respect of the Pensions Authority. The Taoiseach gave a commitment to Deputy Clare Daly that the Minister would organise a meeting with her and the other two interested Deputies as well as others to see what we could do within the current legal situation.

Will the Social Welfare, Pensions and Civil Registration Bill 2017 address some of the problems which have arisen with the administration of funds, such as the second scheme with Aer Lingus? Is there any conceivable way that the ambit of that legislation could be utilised on current wind-ups? It was disturbing to hear from ordinary members that they did not receive annual benefit statements. People seem to be uncertain about how additional voluntary contributions, AVC, are operated. There was no consultation whatsoever on the wind-up. I hope the Minister and the Pensions Authority take action on this and ensure there is not a recurrence in any other scheme and that the current problems are addressed.

Deputy Clare Daly

I welcome the Minister's response. She is right that the trustees have huge power in this area and that is where it really rests. That is a legislative shortcoming and I welcome the Taoiseach's remarks last week that the area is under review and that the Pensions Authority is going to look at making sure that trustees behave in a more accountable and transparent way. I welcome that the Pensions Authority has agreed to examine this area.

I have a word of warning on that, since we are never happy. This scheme has been delayed in its wind-up for a number of years. Millions of euro have been bled out of it while the trustees waited to decide what to do. The resources were in cash and were effectively losing money. It consumed €2 million between 2015 and 2016 in professional fees and so on, just by sitting there. A further delay runs the risk of that situation. Members are very keen to have the financial interests distributed, but they want them to be distributed in a fair way where staff have options and a way of addressing the matter. That is my word of caution. Hopefully, the intervention by the Pensions Authority will be timely and measured but it is important that we go back to the drawing board on it because while there is a method of distribution, it is one of madness and needs to be changed.

Deputy Regina Doherty

I was not aware the Taoiseach had promised a meeting so I apologise. I do not know if there is a need for it now but if there is, I am happy to organise it with the relevant people in my Department. I hear what Deputy Daly said. It is not within my gift to put a timeline on the request but I can certainly convey to the authority the details the Deputy has just outlined.

To respond to Deputy Broughan, although the information provided has caused me concern, that does not necessarily mean that anything that has happened is wrong or illegal. Therefore, it would probably not be helpful if I was to concur with the Deputy that further legislation is needed. I will express the concerns regarding the timing to the authority and whatever the outcome of this is will be reflected in any future legislation. The Deputy is aware that our legislation is coming back on 9 November. I am not sure whether we will have it back soon enough to address the issues but I can guarantee the Deputy that, as long as I am sitting here, whatever issues arise, if there are any, from the treatment of this pension fund will be addressed in future legislation.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Tuesday, 17 Oct 2017