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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Oct 2017

Vol. 960 No. 6

Topical Issues

Garda Station Refurbishment

In 2013 in County Limerick there was an amalgamation of two district divisions, Newcastle West and Askeaton, creating a bigger division that includes Pallaskenry, Foynes, Abbeyfeale, Athea, Glin, Rathkeale, Croom, Ballingarry, Adare, Newcastle West itself and Dromcollogher. It is part of the new regional divisions. In 2014 there was a preliminary design sign-off on the refurbishment of Newcastle West Garda station and it was welcomed that in 2015 it was to be part of the capital plan for 2016 to 2021. The station requires refurbishment as it was built in a time when fewer people used it. More people will use it now because of the amalgamation. Refurbishment is also required to meet the needs of modern policing and customer service for people who use the station, particularly with regard to concerns about privacy and dignity.

I have put down a number of parliamentary questions on this matter trying to get some sort of start date or estimate of when the refurbishment will be completed. In May I received replies to my parliamentary questions indicating a design team was being appointed in order to further advance the project. I took that in good faith. I was told construction work would take 18 months and in a reply to a written question in July, I was told the Office of Public Works architectural and quantity surveying services have been assigned to advance the procurement and appointment of other design team members and progress the full design of the project. Following the necessary planning and tender procurement processes, it is envisaged the construction works will take approximately 18 months. In those questions I sought timelines and a breakdown of how designers would be appointed, the tendering process, the completion of the tendering process and the move to the construction phase. I also asked when the envisaged construction phase will start, as we can assume an approximate duration of 18 months for the refurbishment.

I have nothing but the highest respect and regard for the gardaí in County Limerick and how they conduct their duties. I have interacted with many of them over the years and I know gardaí have had to work in challenging times. I welcome the fact that the previous Government re-opened the Templemore training college in 2014 and we are now starting to see gardaí come back on stream from a recruitment process. The facility at Newcastle West needs upgrading as soon as possible, given the divisional changes that have taken place and the restrictions it currently has for the public and staff who use it. It is imperative we get these timelines.

I understand the Minister might be constrained in giving a specific start date but could we be given some sort of scheme of work or timeline for the design process? When will designers be appointed and how long will the design and tender processes be? Could the processes take place simultaneously? Could a start date be deduced from these?

I thank Deputy Neville for raising this important matter, and it is not the first time he raised it in the Houses. As the Deputy is aware, the programme of replacement and refurbishment of Garda accommodation is progressed by the Garda authorities, working in close co-operation with the Office of Public Works. As Minister, I have no direct role in these matters but I acknowledge the importance of this to Deputy Neville in the Limerick area. The Programme for a Partnership Government recognises that An Garda Síochána must at all times have the modern technology and other resources, including fit-for-purpose buildings, necessary to do the job. I note in this regard that the capital plan for 2016 to 2021 secured resources in this regard.

The Deputy will be aware of the significant efforts being made by the Government to enhance the working environment generally for members of An Garda Síochána and of the major investment that has been committed under the capital plan to upgrade Garda premises, the Garda fleet and Garda ICT infrastructure. This is evidenced by the Garda station building and refurbishment programme for 2016 to 2021, which is an ambitious five-year programme that will benefit over 30 locations around the country and includes over €60 million of Exchequer funding. It is a major public-private partnership project. The programme includes the major works in respect of a replacement station at Newcastle West.

I am advised that the Office of Public Works has completed a feasibility study on the existing Garda station site with regard to the brief of requirements for a district headquarters station. Office of Public Works architectural services are currently reviewing that study from a health and safety, building efficiency and compliance perspective prior to the preparation of tender documents for the procurement of external civil and structural, mechanical and electrical consultants. I note the Deputy's comments on timelines and that the Deputy wishes to have certainty on the matter of this proposed building. I understand it is currently envisaged that the tenders for both of these services will issue between now and the end of this year, which is in the next few weeks. I am further advised that, at this early stage of the project and until the full design team is in place, it is difficult to estimate the precise timeline for the completion of the works. However, it is hoped by all involved that the necessary planning and procurement processes will take place by the end of next year. Following these, it is envisaged the construction will take approximately 18 months.

With regard to the existing accommodation at Newcastle West, pending the refurbishment, I understand that minor remedial works continue to be progressed by An Garda Síochána in conjunction with the Office of Public Works as the need arises. I reassure the House that the Government is fully committed to proceeding with its major investment programme that aims to provide new stations and to modernise older stations at key locations around the country, ensuring a safe, modern working environment for gardaí as well as fit-for-purpose facilities for visitors, victims and suspects, as well as the people in the Newcastle West and surrounding areas of County Limerick in general.

I thank the Minister and welcome his statement. He has put some meat on the bones regarding the timeline for refurbishment. I ask the Minister to keep a close eye on this and that efforts be made to push it through as quickly as possible, given the timelines there in respect of next year. It will help if we can bring it forward or prioritise it to any degree, even perhaps by a number of months. The refurbishment was announced in 2014. I recognise the Minister's input and thank him for his reply and his prioritising of this issue.

On the issue of the Garda in County Limerick in general, I welcome the recruitment that is taking place and recognise that Templemore was opened by the last Government. We want to see that recruitment continue and to ensure the force is beefed up to the level outlined in the programme for Government but I must also put in my own spake for Limerick. I hope that rural Limerick is not forgotten but will be recognised, particularly given the challenges rural areas have had to face in recent years. The county will be complemented by the city region as well. We are trying to get the resources for the city but are keen to ensure the rural areas are not forgotten.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the Garda in County Limerick and how it conducts itself. A superintendent in Newcastle West has retired. I wish him well and hope that his replacement will be brought in as soon as possible. I thank the Minister for replying to my question.

The Deputy has asked that I keep a close eye on matters. I assure him that I am very keen that this project will be completed but I do not believe there is any necessity for me to keep a close eye on matters, having regard to the close eye Deputy Neville himself keeps on this and other important issues in the Limerick constituency.

I agree with the Deputy on the matter of Garda recruitment. I am committed to ensuring a strong and visible Garda presence throughout the country to maintain and strengthen community engagement, to provide reassurance to citizens and to deter crime. The substantial increase in Garda numbers is tangible progress towards achieving the overall vision of this Government to have an overall Garda service of 21,000 personnel by 2021 comprising 15,000 gardaí, 2,000 members of the Garda Reserve and 4,000 civilians. I am pleased to say that last week's budget will support the continuation of this high level of investment in the Garda workforce and will ensure that our targets are firmly on track. Deputy Neville will be aware of the recent graduation of 180 Garda recruits and trainees from Templemore, with a further 200 expected to complete their training course prior to the end of this year, which will bring numbers in the Garda service, having regard to retirements, to approximately 13,500 by the end of this year. Many of these new recruits have been given responsibilities in the Deputy's constituency of Limerick.

On the specific issue of Newcastle West, I assure the Deputy that the works on the Garda station in Newcastle West is a key component of the Garda station building and refurbishment programme, which is an ambitious five-year plan which will benefit Newcastle West, Limerick and other areas. An Garda Síochána and the Office of Public Works, OPW, are working closely to progress the works and to ensure adequate accommodation for the Garda in the meantime, considering the challenge of being a member of the force. The works are estimated to take 18 months following the completion of the tender and procurement process. They will be completed at the earliest opportunity throughout 2018 and I am sure that we will have the opportunity of revisiting this issue as the works progress.

Emergency Departments Services

In May 2014 I instigated a Topical Issue debate on the need to provide a new emergency department at Cavan General Hospital. The hospital opened in June 1989 and since then the number of patients presenting at the emergency department has grown substantially. That particular debate, to which the then Minister for Health, Senator Reilly, replied at the time, highlighted the need to provide appropriate resuscitation and isolation facilities at the emergency department and in particular the need to provide more examination cubicles. I also highlighted the benefits that would accrue from having a minor operating theatre within the emergency department.

The layout of the department is not suitable due to the numbers presenting nowadays. That has been accepted by the HSE and by all medical and nursing clinicians as well. There has been an increase in the population of the Cavan-Monaghan area, which I very much welcome. When I raised this issue in 2014, the population of both counties at that time was 133,500 people. Today, thankfully, it has reached 137,562 people. I raise the point about population because there is a high proportion of older people in the Cavan-Monaghan area. It is well above the national average. As the hospital also provides services for our friends and neighbours from counties Meath, Leitrim and Longford, it has a major catchment area. Over the years, thankfully, there have been major developments at the hospital and I welcome the provision in 2009 of a medical assessment unit. A paediatric assessment unit was also provided. In 2014 an outpatient facility for paediatric cystic fibrosis patients opened and that occurred with huge input from the local community as well. From 2000 to 2011, a major capital programme was in place in which more than 20 additional beds were provided for the hospital, as well as a magnetic resonance imaging, MRI, unit, a computed tomography, CT, scanner, oncology services and a major expansion in renal dialysis services. Thankfully, today services are provided at Cavan General Hospital that once one could only access in the tertiary hospitals in Dublin.

We welcome the provision of additional services but they pose additional demands on the emergency department. When capacity is expanded - which I was very glad to support and to work towards achieving - that creates an extra demand on the emergency department. In the meantime the investment has not taken place in upgrading existing facilities or providing additional facilities. A number of years ago, the HSE brought the design plans to a very advanced stage on three or four occasions. There was going to be a major capital investment but each time, it did not happen. It would have been a very substantial project with additional facilities that everyone would have welcomed. In the meantime, plans were put in place to have a more minor investment that nonetheless would be very important. It was a programme that had advanced through planning. We were told the money was in place but unfortunately it still has not happened. The smaller project, which would be very welcome, would provide eight more cubicles. That would be extremely important. People with family members who have attended and people who have worked in the hospital over the years have told me the extra accommodation - comprising examination cubicles - would be key in providing a better service to the patients presenting. I have been told, via replies to parliamentary questions, correspondence with the HSE and meetings with successive Ministers and senior representatives of the HSE, that a resuscitation area is being developed. Nothing has happened on that, to my knowledge. I would appreciate if the Minister could give me an outline of what is proposed at present, because nothing has happened so far. The numbers presenting are increasing on an annual basis. That is a clear fact.

The HSE is fully aware that in 2016 approximately 35,000 people presented at an emergency department which lacked adequate facilities to deal with such patient numbers.

On behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, I thank the Deputy for the opportunity to update the House. I will reply to the issue as tabled and then maybe pick up on some of the Deputy's concerns. The emergency department in Cavan has been performing well this year. Performance information from the HSE shows a 51% reduction in trolley numbers at the hospital in comparison with the same period in 2016. This is a positive performance especially when we consider that the overall public hospital system is seeing growing demand for emergency care.

This year emergency department, ED, attendances are up nearly 2% overall, that is, over 15,000 more patients attending EDs nationally as compared to 2016. In addition, Cavan General Hospital has been performing well in terms of patient experience times in the ED. Up to the end of August, 72% of all patients completed their episodes of care in the ED within six hours. The Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, RCSI, Hospital Group has identified the need for development of the resuscitation area in Cavan emergency department. Future investment in Cavan General Hospital will be considered within the overall acute hospital infrastructure programme, the prioritised needs of the hospital groups and within the overall capital envelope available to the health service.

The HSE will continue to apply the available funding for hospital development in the most cost effective way possible to meet current and future needs of the health service. The new capital envelope announced last week in the context of budget 2018 will be used by the HSE to revise the capital plan for 2018 and will form the basis of the Department's submission for the forthcoming ten-year national investment plan. Community health organisations and hospitals are all currently in the process of planning for increased demand for health services. They are developing integrated winter plans to cover the period October 2017 to March 2018. These plans, including the plan for Cavan General Hospital, have been submitted to the HSE and will be approved before the end of October. As part of budget 2018 an additional €40 million was announced for 2017 to prepare for and manage the expected peak in demand for our health services over the upcoming winter period.

A bed capacity review is also ongoing within the Department of Health. This review is examining key elements of hospital capacity. The findings of this review will provide a basis for determining the capacity requirements over the next 15 years. It will also identify the type of capacity needed at a national and regional level with regard to acute hospitals, primary care and community care. A final report will be published before the end of the year.

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. If the small project I mentioned were to be provided eight more cubicles and minor surgery could be provided in that accommodation. That would cost less than €1 million. That would ease the pressure considerably on the staff in the emergency department and provide better facilities for the patients who are our number one consideration.

Poor accommodation and inadequate facilities place a huge additional burden on staff. It saps morale. I compliment all the staff in all the different disciplines in the emergency department in Cavan General Hospital and throughout the hospital. They work extremely hard and provide a very good service under very difficult conditions. A few years ago the HSE stated in a report that the emergency department was not fit for purpose. In the meantime it has not invested. The need is urgent. I would settle tomorrow morning for the smaller project if it got the go ahead and the additional accommodation could be provided.

It is not acceptable that when people come into hospital and speak to the reception staff, who are under pressure too, the next person in the queue can hear what they are saying. When we present at an emergency department we do not want to know the name or the details of the person ahead of us or why that person is there. The least that can be provided to patients is privacy. It is not possible for the staff to provide that privacy because of the lack of accommodation. The staff in that department and throughout the hospital are working under tremendous pressure, providing a very good service.

I have raised separately the need to appoint additional nurses to the hospital. I hope the Minister will tell the RCSI Hospital Group of the need to have more nurses appointed to Cavan General Hospital. I had the opportunity to meet him privately on this issue. Could the Minister of State bring back to him the clear message that I am trying to impart here this evening, namely, the need for that additional accommodation to provide people with the service they need when they present at the emergency department? The number of patients presenting at the emergency department is increasing annually. They are not just repeat patients. That is a significant factor in the assessment of the demand on the hospital. My colleague and good friend, Deputy Breathnach, who was a very prominent and active member of the old north eastern health board, the HSE forum for the north east and a great advocate for the development of services in Cavan, Louth, Monaghan and Meath shares my concerns about the inadequate provision of emergency departments for the four counties concerned. I would appreciate if the Minister of State would speak to the Minister about my concerns and ensure that the HSE moves to provide additional upgraded accommodation and new facilities at Cavan General Hospital's emergency department.

For the first time in a long time, there is a possibility of increases, particularly in capital spending in the budget for 2018. It is not acceptable that people entering an accident and emergency department do not have a proper room where they can speak one-to-one without everybody else listening to their business. I have never been in Cavan General Hospital, so I am not sure of its layout. I will, however, relay this to the Minister. I will take on board what the Deputy said about capacity there to build extra cubicles that could assist in the overall administration for people who come into the accident and emergency unit. With regard to what the Deputy said about the increased population in Cavan, I know people who have moved from Dublin to the Cavan area. That is happening weekly or monthly. I have taken detailed notes of what the Deputy said and I will make sure the Minister responds to the Deputy.

Social and Affordable Housing Provision

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. This is my seventh or eighth time addressing the House in the five weeks since we returned after the summer break and I have yet to see the so-called Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy.

I wish no disrespect to the Minister of State who is present. I have had a few conversations with him about housing and he has earned my respect. This is a very problematic area. The problems are not easily fixed but sadly they have got worse in the six and a half years since I have been here. I do not agree with the Government's approach.

My topic is the need to ring-fence all State land currently available throughout Ireland for social and affordable housing. In certain parts of the country, especially in Dublin and other major cities, there is a lot of land under the control of the State and of the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA. I do not understand why we would, for example, allow NAMA engage developers to build housing, and finance them to sell units that are unaffordable.

I do not understand why the State is not proactive about supplying affordable housing. I am very disappointed that the amount of social housing coming down the line is not enough. We need about 10,000 social housing units per annum for the next ten years. We also need a minimum of 10,000 affordable units per annum for the next ten years. We will not achieve that under the current policy.

We face two big problems, the price of land and developers' profit - that is a developer as distinct from a builder. As the then Minister with responsibility for housing, Deputy Simon Coveney, told us in December 2016, the local authority on State land in Dublin could have built a three bedroom house for €205,000, that might be €230,000 now, while the figure outside of Dublin was €154,000, which might be €170,000 now. The truth is that we will not get units through a major developer who has been funded by NAMA on State land for less than €400,000. It is not happening and it will not happen. Why will the Government not ring fence the land?

I have looked at what happens in Europe. In Germany, local authorities can freeze the value of the land after it decides to specify an area for residential construction. The freezing of land values means that the local authority effectively acquires the land at use value. That is not rocket science. Our site levy which was invented in 2015 is a joke. It is too easy to get out of it. It will not catch anyone with a brain in his or her head. It is no good for the Minister to increase it from 3% to 7% because it will not catch the developer. If I had a land bank I guarantee I would not have to pay a penny in tax because I know exactly what I would have to do to avoid it and so too do the developers. If one has borrowed more than 75% of the money one can avoid most of the tax, which is also the case if one is using the land for anything.

This week I was at a launch of a report by the Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice and I will mention a couple of relevant points made at that event. The first was that the housing crisis was a direct result of Government policies and the second was that Rebuilding Ireland failed to address the financialisation of housing. It said that the market failure must be recognised, the market does not deliver when it should and the prices are too high. The report says that three out of four homeless people will end up in private rented accommodation. We are moving towards the private rental market but we have designed it in such a way with REITs and vulture funds that rent is too expensive here. The average rent for a two-bedroom apartment in Dublin is now €1,800, where it is €400 in most cities in Italy or Germany. I ask the Minister of State, please can we have a change of direction and ring fence land so that State land can be used to provide housing - social and affordable - for the people of Ireland?

I thank Deputy Mick Wallace for raising the issue of housing and the question of State land. He might not realise it but we are actually on the same page on much of this. People seem to keep missing that. He and many others who are not in Government keep mentioning this magic target of 10,000 social houses annually. We agree on this and have set aside the money that will get us to that point. Over the next four or five years we will deliver 10,000 social houses annually and we will continue to do so thereafter. Some Governments might do more, and we might do more ourselves if the taxpayers' money is there, but we are agreed on that figure yet people keep talking as though we are not. It was recommended by the Committee on Housing and Homelessness, we adopted it, the funds have been set aside for coming years and have been ring fenced in order to deliver, as a minimum, 50,000 social houses. We are on the same page. That is separate to affordable housing. Deputy Mick Wallace wants 10,000 affordable houses also, but we are on very similar territory there too.

We agree about the use of the State landbank and the very important role that it can play in delivering housing, increasing and accelerating its delivery especially in the social and affordable area. That is what we are trying to do. The plan places a particular focus on maximising the output of housing on landbanks owned by local authorities, the Housing Agency and the broader public sector. This is what we want to do. We also want to maximise taxpayers' money and its use to drive housing activity for social and affordable housing and to get private housing back going too. If we are to solve the problem it must be across all tenures. The first task was to map the land and track what we had because all the land that was owned by the State was not known. We had to go find it. In April 2017 we published a list of 1,700 ha of land belonging to the State; 770 of those sites belong to local authorities and about 30 belong to other State agencies. In total all those sites could accommodate up to 50,000 houses. This landbank is under the control of housing authorities and given their broader role as planning authorities they are crucial in operationalising social and affordable housing delivery from the sites. Importantly, in addition to that, local authorities are already working on 11,000 social houses which are part of 700 construction projects. There are 11,000 social houses in the pipeline which is not enough. We would like to treble that and add to that further. A sum of €6 billion has been set aside to drive this and deliver these houses. Once again, the number of houses which Deputy Wallace seeks and which I seek and which we need are the same and we want them in a hurry. I wish that we could produce them tomorrow, but we cannot. The Deputy will see much more social housing being delivered in the coming years. We have gone from 75 social houses two years ago to 500 last year, to 2,000 social houses built directly this year and nearly 4,000 next year. Those are figures for direct build. When one adds in Part V acquisitions and other houses, there will be around 6,000 social houses built next year and that does not include leases under the HAP scheme. It is steady progress. We all want to get to the figure of 10,000. I agree with Deputy Wallace. We will get there but it cannot happen with a switch. We had to put the plan in place, make it happen and provide the money to do that. I have also set aside LIHAF funding to open up sites which will deliver social, affordable and private houses. We have set aside an extra €75 million of funds for LIHAF, which consists of a fund of €50 million for LIHAF and €25 million specifically to open local authority sites in order to deliver housing.

Anyone who builds houses on State land will have to sign up to a reduction in the price of those houses to the market. Naturally, if they are being given access to a free site or a low cost site belonging to the State, there must be a pay back in the price of the house which will be passed on in the cost to the customer or in providing access to affordable housing. We will try to get the maximum from those sites. We have set aside €6 billion but in order to stretch that it makes sense that when we open these sites we would allow a combination of social, affordable and private housing, by which we can get a lot more houses for everyone which will bring prices down. We are on the same page.

NAMA has to work with its debtors. They have debts to repay. Everyone knows about those situations for the builders and developers with those debts. They have to repay those debts and NAMA cannot force them to deliver social housing and sell them for free. They are entitled to work out their debt on their sites and lands which is what they are doing.

Regarding NAMA, people with skills will be used in relation to the loan of €750 million. That is other money that will be used to deliver housing. Naturally, if that housing is delivered on State sites, there will be payback to the State. They will not go in and deliver a house which will be sold on the private market without any payback to the State or any nod towards affordability. It will be dealt with on a site-by-site basis.

Regarding all the sites which I mentioned, the local authorities have been asked to bring forward their plans by the end of September so over the coming weeks they are expected to come back to the Department with their plans for each site, showing how they will be developed for affordable and social housing with some private units too. Those plans have been submitted and are currently being analysed. There will be much more in this area in coming months and it is a positive development.

The Minister of State says that we are on the same wavelength but that is not true. Myself and Deputy Bernard J. Durkan, who is also in the Chamber, were on the Committee on Housing and Homelessness last summer. The Government has ignored most of its recommendations.

I am sorry but the Government has. This week the Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice - I am talking about people like Fr. Peter McVerry, Ms Margaret Burns, Dr. P.J. Drudy who know a lot about housing -----

-----said that we need to reverse the policy pursued by successive Governments of relying to an ever increasing extent on rent supplementation of different kinds as a way of meeting long-term social housing need. We are discussing 10,000 units but the Government still does not want to go to a place where it will get the local authority to build-----

That is where we are going. Which bit does the Deputy not understand?

Hold on, I did not interrupt. In Wexford this year, three local authority houses will be built. That is three, with a waiting list of 3,700. The Minister of State needs to give us a break. It is nonsense. The Government is still totally dependent on the private market to deliver. The Minister of State says that no one gets to build on State land without providing affordable housing. Nobody to whom NAMA has given land has provided affordable housing. They are selling four bedroom houses in Dún Laoghaire for €700,000 each on land that NAMA provided and financed. NAMA did a deal on loans belonging to the developer Harcourt Developments, known as Project Abbey.

It sold it, but it took the residential land out of it and boasted to us at the housing committee last year it they would ring-fence it for Government housing. What did it do with it? It went back to the same developer a couple of weeks ago and did a deal with him. There is no way there will be a unit in it for less than €400,000. They will be a lot more. We are not going in the right direction. There is no affordable housing policy at present and there was none in the budget. Will there be one? I would like to see it. There is no way NAMA should be allowed to fund the building out of State land, because every bit of land NAMA has is State land.

Hold on a minute. It sold 3,800 sites in Cherrywood for €27,000 each to Hines, a vulture fund, which is now selling them for more than €100,000 each. Explain how this makes sense to the Irish people, NAMA selling 3,800 sites in Cherrywood for €27,000 each and now Hines is selling them for more than €100,000 each. Explain the logic of that to me, please.

To be very clear to the House, what I have outlined here is State land, that the State owns and that we will use to deliver social and affordable housing as well as allowing for private housing in order that we get a combination of houses and provide housing for all the different needs of people, be they key workers, people on the social housing waiting list or others. That is how we will increase the supply of housing. We will only tackle the housing crisis by increasing the supply of housing.

The Deputy listed people whom he said were experts on housing. They might understand homelessness, but they are not experts on housing, no more than we are. All of us put together have the right solutions. We are on the same page because we all want to deliver 10,000 social houses a year. I understand, and the Deputy might not understand, that it takes a little bit of time to get there. We cannot just say we want it tomorrow and have it. We have to put in place a plan, allocate the money and make it happen. That is what we are doing, and we will use State land to do it.

In the short term, we are rebuilding our housing stock and, trust me, the Government and I are committed to making local authorities central to delivering local authority housing. That is what they are doing. They were stopped by other parties, not by Fine Gael, the Labour Party or Independents, but a different party which is not in government now. We are putting the capacity back in the system to do that. Deputy Wallace and I agree on that much, but I disagree with him because the NAMA sites are not State lands.

It is State land, please. It belongs to the State.

NAMA has a duty to the debtors, with which it works, to try to maximise the return to those debtors, because most of those guys have debts that they owe and they have to be paid back. We work with NAMA on key sites and we will use NAMA's skills, but there is a difference in the State-owned lands I am speaking about and those which the Deputy claims are State-owned lands. NAMA has a duty to the people who have debts to pay back as much debt as possible and that is a separate issue.

We should try to work together and deliver more social housing where we can. There is a commitment on the NAMA sites to deliver 20,000 houses. Some of them are under Part V and some will have more houses. On some of the sites, more than 10% is being given for social housing. Either way, what we badly need is more housing in the system because the supply of housing will help us solve this. We have to rely on the private sector through the housing assistance payment scheme and lease schemes in the short term. We do not have a choice in the matter if we want houses today and if the Deputy wants me to solve the housing situation today. We cannot solve it only with social housing, so yes, we will have to use private housing in the short term.

I want a long-term project or a long-term vision.

If the Deputy takes the time to read the plan, he would see there is a commitment of €6 billion for social housing.

Fine Gael and the Labour Party did away with the social housing scheme.

GLAS Payments

I am very glad to see the Minister of State, Deputy Doyle, in the Chamber. The issue I am raising is about green low-carbon agri-environment scheme, GLAS, payments. The 6,000 or more farmers waiting for their GLAS money are waiting for their 2016 payments, and we are now nearly at the end of 2017. I am given to understand that a lot of the reason for this is to do with nutrient management plans which have not yet been submitted or have been delayed in being submitted. There are a couple of issues in this, and one of them that certainly comes to mind for me is there were huge difficulties over the summer and last spring with the portal and computer system the Department was using for accepting these nutrient management plans. This seems to be one of the main reasons for the delays in getting this done. This brings me back to an issue we have often raised here, which is the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine seems to have some problem with its IT systems and what is happening in this respect.

We also have coming up very soon the issue of the commonage framework plans, which also are supposed to be submitted or people will not get their money. As the Minister of State knows, because he lives in a mountainous part of the world in County Wicklow, a lot of farmers on commonage will have to do up this framework plan and submit it. The plans have to be in by 31 October and yet the portal to submit the plan only opened up on 1 October. We understand there is a bit of a row going on between private planners and Teagasc, as there was in regard to the nutrient management plans, because the private planners have to get access to it through Teagasc. There are a lot of problems there, the reason for which is poor foresight, because they were not sorted out in the beginning and worked through.

I draw the Minister of State's attention to the commonage framework plans. I am delighted the Minister of State is here because he has a greater understanding of this than the Minister. With all due respect to the Minister, Deputy Creed, he is from a part of the world where commonage plans are not as common. As the Minister of State knows, one of the things required for the framework plans is that if, for example, there are ten parties on the commonage they have to come up with a plan. They work together. They may not all have the same planner, but only one planner has to submit the plan, so they have to co-operate to do that. Several parties to the commonage may not be in GLAS at all. There may also be adjoining much of the commonage land big tracts of forestry because the commonage is on a mountain. Certainly, in my part of the world that is one of the major problems. The forest companies will not fence the mountain, so we end up in a situation where people are in a commonage plan where one of the conditions is they must graze the mountain to a certain level. The people have to put sheep on the mountain to graze it, but the sheep do not stay on the mountain because they go back down through the forestry and away with them. Despite this, the forestry companies will not fence the area concerned.

These practical problems are coming up for farmers, and while the plan may look very well on paper, implementing it in reality will be very difficult and many of the farmers are fearful. They put in these plans and everything looks great, but when it comes down to it, they may not be able to manage it the way it is set out in the plan because much of the mountain is outside of their control.

The issue which I raise regarding the GLAS payments is a reflection of this. If, because of the nutrient management plans, we have this hold-up, what kind of a hold-up will we have in future with the framework plans? The whole GLAS situation is a bit of a mess in this regard.

There are approximately 50,000 farmers in GLAS and there is an average payment of just under €4,000 per farmer. This shows an underspend last year of more than €50 million, because €1,000 by 50,000 farmers is €50 million. What is the possibility of reopening the scheme to new applicants to use up this underspend, which clearly will be there this year again? We find very few farmers reach the €5,000 spoken about in the beginning as the average payment, and it clearly is not. The average payment is under €4,000 per farmer. There is space to open up the scheme to more farmers and allow them in to enhance their income.

I thank Deputy Kenny for raising this matter, which gives me an opportunity to outline the up-to-date position regarding the 2016 payments under GLAS. It is important to point out with regard to the Deputy's final point that GLAS is the most heavily subscribed scheme ever run under a rural development programme in Ireland. The original target of 50,000 participants has been well surpassed such is the popularity of the scheme. GLAS has a maximum annual payment of €5,000 under the general scheme, with provision for payment up to €7,000, known as GLAS+, where the farmer is required to give exceptional environmental commitments in a limited number of cases.

GLAS, like previous agri-environment schemes, provides valuable support to participants who deliver public goods and environmental benefits that enhance Ireland’s agriculture sustainability credentials. The scheme delivers overarching benefits to the rural environment and also addresses the issues of the mitigation of the impacts of climate change, the improvement of water quality and the enhancement of biodiversity.

The scheme supports participants in improving their agricultural productivity and practices in a sustainable manner. Applications under the first two tranches of the GLAS scheme resulted in almost 38,000 farmers being approved into the scheme in its first year of implementation. This represented an unprecedented level of participation in the first year of an agri-environment scheme in Ireland. A further 13,500 participants have been approved under GLAS 3. Last year, 2016, represents the first full year of payments under GLAS. To be very clear, only GLAS tranche 1 and 2 participants are eligible for a payment in respect of 2016.

The scheme is co-funded by the national Exchequer and the European agricultural fund for rural development. As required under EU regulation, two payments issue in respect of each year, with the advance payment being followed at a later stage by the balancing payment. In 2016 and again in 2017, the advance payment represents 85% of the annual payment, with the balancing payment being 15%.

In 2016, advance payments commenced in December and continued to be made on an ongoing basis as cases were cleared. Over 99% of 2016 advance payments have now been issued and, to date this year, we have paid out almost €150 million under the scheme. In the majority of the remaining cases, applicants have been advised on a number of occasions of the steps they must take before the Department can process their payment. In most cases, this relates to outstanding documentation they must submit. As soon as this is received and assuming everything is in order, my Department will move immediately to make the payment. After the advance payment, the remaining 15% is paid out at a later stage, and this is known as the balancing payment. The 2016 balancing payments commenced on schedule during the summer and are also being issued on an ongoing basis. We have been paying out almost €1 million per week in payments since these payments commenced, and this week expect to pay out almost €1.2 million.

The main issue with these payments is the need for advisers to submit a farm nutrient management plan to the dedicated online system. A plan must be submitted on behalf of each GLAS 1 and 2 participant before 2016 balancing payments and any future GLAS payments, including 2017 advance payments, can be issued. Plans have now been submitted on behalf of over 80% of all GLAS 1 and 2 participants. Just over 6,000 plans remain outstanding.

This specific figure of 6,000 is what was raised by the Deputy. These are not delayed payments, as has been suggested. It is simply not possible for my Department to make these payments because the 6,000 applicants have not met the requirements by not submitting their nutrient management plan. Over 30,000 applicants have submitted the plan and, hence, received their balancing payment immediately. We are keenly aware of the need to process these cases and issue the balancing payments without delay. We have regularly communicated the importance of submitting the plans to participants, the farm representative bodies, the advisers and the media generally in order to generate as much awareness as possible.

I understand that and I understand why the problem has arisen. I would like the Minister of State to try to deal with it. The system was to take in the nutrient management plans before March 2017. The deadline was extended until the middle of June. It then had to be extended a second time, into July, because the system was not able to take them. That is what I was told was the reason. The Minister of State has not dealt with that. He is putting the blame on the farmer again.

Or the advisers. There will always be somebody who is a little late. Everybody does not get every wisp of hay home; that is life but farmers have been waiting for their money for a very lengthy period as the Minister of State will acknowledge. What needs to be acknowledged is that there is a problem in the Department in regard to the IT systems it uses. I am not blaming the Minister of State, the Minister or anyone else at present but the problem needs to be acknowledged and a solution needs to be found to deal with it. Every year, some issue or clash arises, or the independent advisers have a row with Teagasc because they do not have access to this or that. It is the same with the commonage framework plans that are due shortly. Could the Minister of State acknowledge the problem and assure the House, farmers and advisers that an effort will be made to deal with the matter.

There is a bit of a hotchpotch within the Department. Many different people are coming in as consultants working on the computer system and there is no overall system working effectively and efficiently and able to deal with what we all acknowledge is a massive volume of payments. Farmers are very grateful for the payments. The system would work very well if we could get it to work better, but there is currently a hold-up. Blaming the advisers or farmers is not really the way forward. The Government needs to acknowledge that there is a problem and that it needs to be fixed.

I wish to clarify a couple of points. I attended the Agricultural Consultants Association annual conference and was asked about this matter at the end of it. It was just coming up to the deadlines for area aid applications, in May. Those to whom I spoke said the workload at that time made it very difficult for them to get nutrient management plans in. They said everything was running to deadlines of 31 May, 12 May, 15 May or otherwise. They asked for an extension. This was nothing to do with the Department's system at that time. The deadline has been extended several times. One can see the point on trying to spread the workload. What has happened since the time in question is that the money is ready to be paid to the 6,000 people in respect of nutrient management plans. The button, if it is pressed, will not issue a payment until there is a management plan. It has nothing to do with consultants or the IT system. It is a matter of acknowledging the problems earlier in the year. I hope there will be a far higher percentage dealt with when the advance payments for 2017 are being made, assuming everything is right. The 6,000 need to get the plans in so they can get the balancing payment of 15% and be in a position to receive the advance payment for 2017.

With regard to the commonage management plans, the portal opened only a month ago. The target is 31 October to enable the making of the payments and future payments. Any activity beyond that deadline will cause a delay. Even if there is an extension of the deadline, the payments cannot be made until the commonage management plans are submitted.

It is fair that the Deputy acknowledges that the GLAS is huge, including over 52,000 farmers. The moneys will be fully drawn down over the lifetime of the programme. The moneys may not all be drawn down on the date the programme ends because of the way payments naturally follow. We have done everything possible to communicate with all stakeholders the need to get the nutrient management plans in so payment can be issued. It is not in the Department's interest to hang on to money any longer than it has to. I can assure the Deputy of that.

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