Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 24 Oct 2017

Vol. 960 No. 7

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

The tracker mortgage scandal represents a damning indictment of the behaviour of our banks towards both our people and their customers. It also reveals, it would appear, a tardiness and certain reluctance on the part of the Central Bank to deal early and resolutely with the issue, particularly the systematic nature of the abuse that occurred and the part of the Government in allowing this scandal to drag on for far too long.

I am sure the Minister would agree that the banks essentially stole people's money. They caused enormous damage to people's lives and a great deal of distress to families. Mr. Thomas Ryan's heart-rending testimony to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach last week revealed that damage in shocking terms - a stroke at the age of 47 and a nervous breakdown within the family. In many respects, it constitutes a failure of regulation and Government oversight that a man had to come before an Oireachtas committee with others to reveal all of that. What does it say about the system of regulation? What does it say about the ethos and culture of our banks that they would bring people to that level of shocking distress, resulting in individuals having to come before Dáil Éireann to articulate what happened to them? We know that 102 customers have lost their homes as a result of this scandal.

The Central Bank would have had some indication of this as long ago as 2009 or 2010 - although it was not systematic at that stage - and it took it until 2015, when an investigation took place, for it to begin to be satisfied that this was systematic. It defies all credibility that 11 institutions would have acted independently. No credible explanation has been given as to how this happened in all of the banks at the same time. That matter needs to be pursued. The banks have been pathetically slow in the context of resolving these issues.

It is interesting that some weeks ago representatives from Ulster Bank gave testimony to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach that only 40 of its 3,500 mortgage holders had got their money back. KBC indicated that it had not contacted all of its customers. Yet there were no big announcements at that stage or ministerial meetings being profiled. It took last week's meeting of the committee to get some belated action from the Government. I put it to the Minister that there is a pattern here with, for example, the Government having been negative and adversarial towards my party's Central Bank (Variable Rate Mortgages) Bill 2016, which Deputy Michael McGrath put forward-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----and which was designed to deal with the issue of mortgage holders being ripped off as a result of the imposition of excessive rates.

The Government essentially seems to be standing by and putting the interests of the banks ahead of those of the public. Why did the Government not intervene earlier and more decisively on this issue? Is the Government going to increase the bank levy as was indicated last week? Has the Government told the banks to cease any repossession of mortgages affected by this scandal? Will the Government now proactively support our Central Bank (Variable Rate Mortgages) Bill?

Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Simon Coveney)

The Government takes this issue very seriously. I am glad to understand that the two largest parties in this House have agreed upon a motion for tomorrow night. There is a very clear message coming from the Oireachtas in respect of how unacceptable the behaviour of banks has been in the context of the tracker mortgage scandal, which we are trying to bring to a conclusion. We had a Government meeting last night, most of which was taken up by a discussion on this issue.

The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, has made it crystal clear that he sees this as a totally unacceptable breach of the kind of standards that banks should be applying. This is unfortunately a recognition that for some in Irish banks, there is still a cultural problem. It needs to change. We have seen both the Central Bank and the Minister for Finance make very clear and blunt statements on the need for banks themselves to respond in a more comprehensive way than has been the case to date. Clearly, different banks are behaving differently in terms of the pace of co-operation with the Central Bank. That is also something that needs to come to an end this week. The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, met representatives of three banks yesterday, namely, Bank of Ireland, KBC and Permanent TSB. Today he will meet representatives of AIB and Ulster Bank. The Minister has given a very consistent message to all five that the Government regards their behaviour in this scandal as totally unacceptable. Banks should be there to serve an economy and a society as opposed to the other way around. There are families today who have lost homes and others who have lost properties because of the dishonest behaviour of banks in the context of tracker mortgages and their attempts to get people off them for some time now.

I want to give a very clear message to the House that the Minister, supported by the Government, is going to see this through. He will make a lengthy statement to the House tomorrow in the context of his meetings this week. We also expect comprehensive statements from all five banks addressing how they intend to bring this saga and scandal to an end and to ensure that people get their money back, as well as get the appropriate redress they are due. The damage that has been caused is, unfortunately, a further example of banks not acting in the interests of the public but acting in their own interests.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Minister did not answer the questions that I asked. The first one was whether the Government is going to increase the bank levy. I am not saying that is the optimal outcome but it was touted by the Government last week. Those were the screaming headlines last week indicating a tough response. Given that there was a lengthy discussion on it last evening at the Cabinet meeting, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, might clarify whether it is the Government's intention to increase the bank levy or add additional levies. What powers does the Central Bank have at the moment that it could use to penalise the banks more? Has the Government made it clear to the banks that all repossessions of properties affected by this scandal should cease? Has the Government a clear position on that?

Will the Government proactively support our Central Bank (Variable Rate Mortgages) Bill? It would give additional powers to the Central Bank to be able to deal with the rip-off of up to 300,000 people in terms of their interest rates. We have been pursuing this now for quite some time yet there has been a negative, foot-dragging, almost adversarial approach from the Government. I put it to the Minister that this follows a pattern of standing back from the banks, standing by and allowing them do what they are doing, which is screwing customers on a continuous basis.

There needs to be a change in the official approach to the banking system across the board.

Deputy Simon Coveney

It is the role of the Central Bank, not the Government, to regulate the banking system. Should another a scandal occur, the type of which we are talking about today, the Government, if it needs to, will act. On the levy issue, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, has made it clear that he has not been prescriptive in terms of what the Government will do until such time as he gets clarification from the banks this week on what they intend to do, but he has also made it clear that if the Government is not satisfied with the response this week from the banks there will be a further Cabinet meeting dealing with the detail of the options that are available to Government in that regard.

In regard to the Central Bank, it already has extensive and significant powers to fine and a series of other powers. The suggestion that the consumer protection function should be taken from the Central Bank is misplaced.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The suggestion was made by a Minister of the Government.

Deputy Michael McGrath

It did not come from us.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I am not suggesting that it did. What I am saying is that I do not believe any consumer protection regulator would have the power the Central Bank has. That function needs to remain with the Central Bank. We will have a comprehensive statement from the Government tomorrow. We expect a comprehensive statement from the banks also. If we do not get that, the Government will look at the options that are available to it.

On the legislation issue, I will leave it to the Ministers concerned to discuss the detail in that regard. If the Central Bank indicates that it needs more power, it will get it from Government.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

First, I extend a very warm welcome home to Irish citizen and fellow Dubliner, Ibrahim Halawa. I am sure everybody will join me in extending to him and his family our warmest wishes as he readjusts to life back home. Céad míle fáilte ar ais. Fáilte abhaile, Ibrahim.

I wish to raise the refusal of the Government to provide necessary funding to produce up-to-date research regarding the sexual abuse and violence in Ireland, SAVI, report. This report, which documented the impact of sexual violence on the Irish population, is 15 years old and so many aspects of the 2002 research are outdated. The importance of updating this research cannot be overstated. Ms Noeleen Blackwell of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre has said that the Government "is in a situation where decisions are being made about how to combat sexual violence in Ireland which are based on evidence that is so out of date that it might as well be from Dickens".

This matter was raised last week by our colleague, an Teachta Catherine Connolly. At that time, the Taoiseach, while professing to have an open mind on the subject, said that Government Departments have expressed a preference for the money to be directed into services rather than into funding new research. He also said: "Departments are satisfied with the statistics and the information that they have." The Department of Justice and Equality cited the Rape Crisis Network Ireland as the source of these statistics yet that organisation has clearly stated that it is no longer able to publish such statistics because of funding cuts. This was a cynical attempt on the part of An Taoiseach to pit two vital pillars in the combating of sexual violence against each other. It should not be a case of research or services. The message should not be that we can have one or the other because we clearly need both. In the absence of up-to-date information, how can we be certain that services are being properly allocated?

The need to fund a new report is not without its supporters within the Government. I understand that members of Cabinet were asked to support the funding of a new report. I know that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone, has stated that the Government should fund the new study and that the Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Fitzgerald, has said that it is something the Government should consider. However, it seems that all of this has fallen on deaf ears. At the Fine Gael presidential dinner last Saturday night, the Taoiseach's open mind had closed shut.

He confirmed that the Government would not fund a new report and said the money would instead go on legal aid. In so doing, he has again played the needs of research and services against each other. Both are required and should be properly funded. This is about choices. It would cost €1 million to produce this report. Five such reports could be produced for the cost of the Taoiseach's vanity project, the now infamous strategic communications unit. It is difficult to imagine that the Government could not find the money if it were so minded. I ask the Minister to come to his senses and commit to funding a new report.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I also welcome the return of Ibrahim Halawa to Dublin this morning. I thank all Members, including the Ceann Comhairle, who helped make that happen, along with the many others who made Mr. Halawa feel very welcome on his return. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has spent more time on this case than any other in consular history. Many Members have been involved in a campaign to highlight the injustice in this case. I am glad that, despite four very difficult years, there has been a happy ending for the Halawa family. I hope to meet Mr. Halawa later today.

On the comments made by the Taoiseach last week in respect of sexual assault and violence in Ireland, my understanding is that he has an open mind on this issue, as does the Government. He merely pointed out that if €1 million is to be spent in that area, regard must be had to the most acute current priorities. That question needs to be asked by the Government if it is to allocate fresh resources that were not provided for in the budget. That is not to say that the Government will not do this if it is the right thing to do. There is no disputing that the SAVI report was ground-breaking when it was published in 2002. However, much has happened since then, including the formulation of the first and second national strategies on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. There are additional sources of more recent data in respect of sexual violence. The European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights' study on violence against women in 2014 provided comparative prevalence data across the 28 member states and a Eurobarometer study provided comparative data for 2016 for each member state. The European Union statistics body, EUROSTAT, is gearing up to survey gender-based violence and victimisation. It is anticipated that the Central Statistics Office, CSO, will take part in any EU-wide victimisation survey. Existing Garda data on sexual crimes published by the CSO have also been strengthened, thus ensuring we have more robust current data. The Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality, Deputy Stanton, met the director of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, Noeline Blackwell, this afternoon. The Government will consider the issue and if it is right to prioritise spending on research, that will be done. However, that decision has not yet been made and, therefore, I cannot announce it today.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is the right thing to do. Although the Minister has cited studies that have been and will be carried out, none are comparable to the SAVI report in terms of the depth of data produced and the depiction of the entire scope of sexual violence in Ireland. This is the right thing to do. The Minister is correct that it is about prioritisation. It is not lost on Members that €5 million was prioritised for the Government's strategic communications unit. In that context, it should be confirmed in the House today that €1 million will be prioritised to fund this very necessary research.

This is not some additional bauble or concession to those in the world of research; it is absolutely essential to the guiding and shaping of our responses and our services to care for people who are victims of sexual violence. This is a necessary part of service provision and, to repeat, it is very wrong to suggest that one should choose services over up-to-date, reliable information.

Deputy Simon Coveney

That is not what I am suggesting.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The one feeds into and directs the other. I would like the Minister, as a member of Cabinet, to state his personal support for the funding of a new SAVI report and to state that he recognises the priority of this and that he is prepared to see an allocation-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time is up.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

-----of €1 million for this purpose.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call on the Minister to conclude.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Neither the Taoiseach nor anyone else in Government has been pitting one against the other, and the Deputy should not present the matter in those terms because it is simply not true. The Government's commitment in respect of domestic and sexual violence is clear. We have the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017, and more than €22 million in funding for the purpose of tackling domestic and sexual violence is now available within Tusla. This is an increase of €1.5 million on last year. There is a commitment on the part of the Government to try to deal with this issue comprehensively. The issue is whether we should now prioritise spend on further research to build on that which is already there but outdated. I will take my advice from the experts in this area through the Department. If trying to find €1 million for this research is the right thing to do, the Government will do it.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

On 19 September many of us were at a conference on mental health in Dublin Castle that the Minister had been instrumental in organising. Like many others, I sat there listening to the various presentations and inputs, and one could be forgiven for thinking we have a service that is comprehensive, extensive and accessible to those who present with mental health issues. Some progress is being made but I will highlight an area where absolutely no progress is being made, that is, dual diagnosis, the coexistence of substance misuse and a mental health issue in an individual. The mental health issue could range from psychosis or bipolar disorder to depression or an anxiety disorder. I know this is not the Minister's area of expertise but I hope my highlighting of it will enable him to have a conversation about it with the Minister for Health.

There has been discussion on the demand and the need for this since the late 1990s. In 2004 a report by Dr. Liam MacGabhann of DCU raised two particular findings: first, that 76% of services failed to provide a specific service for those with dual diagnosis; second, that a majority of the service providers agree that a fully integrated service would be the most effective management of dual diagnosis. However, since then, there has been little or no movement except a downward movement. Mental health and addiction services are not currently able to treat people holistically because they are treating the condition and not the person. Addiction services address the addiction; mental health services address the mental health issue. However, a recent report indicates that two thirds of those who die by suicide have both addiction and mental health issues.

Just 20 minutes ago I took a phone call from someone I know in this exact situation. Her brother has a psychotic condition and is being seen by a psychiatrist and being given medication. Because the condition is not being adequately addressed, this young man has been turning to alcohol and other drugs to try to deal with his symptoms. His behaviour has become much more aggressive, with the result that his family fear for their safety. They have had to call the Garda. He spent hours yesterday and today in a police station. He is currently in a police station waiting for an ambulance to take him to an accident and emergency department, where I doubt very much he will get the service he needs.

The Minister will tell me a review of A Vision for Change is ongoing, but as dual diagnosis was not covered in A Vision for Change in the first place, there cannot be a review in this regard. He may also tell me a new national dual diagnosis service is being set up under the HSE. My question is whether the Minister will ensure there will be real collaboration between that service and those who work in this area and those who struggle with addiction. What they are hearing is that the model of care will be drawn up and then there will be a meeting. It seems there will be a top-down, specialist-driven, consultant-knows-best approach that will not take into account the views of those who are actively working in the area and those struggling with addiction, who have a voice themselves and can give their opinion. It will not do this young man or his family any good unless that collaboration happens.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I do not profess to be an expert on this area. I thank the Deputy for acknowledging the limitations of what we can commit to here in the House. This was an issue we put a lot of focus on about a year ago in the context of homelessness, particularly in terms of the need for the State to intervene in a more comprehensive way to try to deal with both addiction and mental health in a way that was complementary, as opposed to a silo-based approach where there are two different approaches trying to deal with challenges people face that are very much intertwined with each other. If it would be helpful, I will happily arrange a meeting between the Minister, Deputy Harris, and Deputy O'Sullivan so she can talk to him in some detail about her specific concerns and proposals in the context of what the HSE is doing, the new national drugs strategy which has recently been published and the review of A Vision for Change. There is a lot happening within the Government to try to grapple with this policy issue. I suspect the Deputy has particular things she wants to raise in that context and I would happily try to facilitate that for her.

I also point to the increased funding we have provided specifically around homelessness services. Identifying the multidisciplinary nature of the supports the State needs to provide is a very clear recognition of some of the issues the Deputy has been raising. The funding for homelessness services into next year will increase by some €18 million. Much of that support is in the context of family transition hubs, for example, and the supports for families and individuals in emergency accommodation will be focused on the type of multidisciplinary approach the Deputy is seeking.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

Collaboration and talking with those who are directly involved is vital because there are unique factors and unique needs with regard to those who are in addiction. We have made some progress in the north inner city and in supports for workers. However, in the west, for example, mental health services will not deal with somebody who is currently in addiction and, because there is no addiction service there, those people are left with absolutely nothing. There is also a need to look at the term "dual diagnosis", which is an old psychiatric term from the United States of the 1950s and 1960s. We are saying that, for those in addiction, it is a mental health issue. The other part of the triangle is those who are homeless. Many of those who are homeless are also presenting with a mental health issue. It is this integrated service, with people talking together and collaborating, that will give the best outcome.

I am struck by the fact that the people I am talking about will not get next or near a mortgage, tracker or otherwise, unless they get into recovery. If they are in recovery, they will have their lives back and can do those things.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I do not disagree with any of that. The most useful thing to do is to make sure the Deputy is fully plugged in to what the Government is doing in this area across different Departments, but in particular led by the Minister for Health in the context of mental health services. I will ensure there is a follow-up from the question today.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The infamous American bank robber, Willie Sutton, once said: "You can't rob a bank on charm and personality." What the Irish banks have proven, however, is that one can indeed rob the people on charm and personality. I am referring to the latest example of our predatory banks' behaviour with respect to tracker mortgages. I believe it is important that we speak about this not only because of the obvious need to give redress to the victims of the institutional scam that has unfolded, but also because it is episodes like this that reveal where the real centre of power lies in this country, unfortunately. We in here might like to think that the Oireachtas and this House is where the authority resides but, sadly, we are being shown every day that this is not true and that it does not reside here at all. When scandals like this happen, those who are really in control are fully revealed, and we know who they are.

The so-called pillar banks and others seem to have a free hand to do as they wish, when they wish, to whom they wish, and especially to the little people and the ordinary people. The attitude very much appears to be that if the people and families lose their homes, tough luck; if families unfortunately lost loved ones through suicide due to the stress of trying to meet mortgage repayments, that is their own tough luck.

If the children must endure the pain and suffering of seeing their parents tormented, demented and driven to bad health by the debt and the bullying of the banks, is this their own fault as well?

This is the kind of attitude that lies at the heart of our banking culture. It is rotten to the core and, worse, it appears that all regulatory attempts to get rid of it have utterly failed. The banks have done absolutely nothing to voluntarily disclose this latest fraud perpetrated upon tens of thousands of our people. Only when the glare of the public spotlight is forced upon them do they rush out with their pretence of sorrow. It is a small pretence. They know from experience that the best strategy is simply to ride it out and keep the head down. Soon the huffing and puffing and the tough talk of the Government will die down and it will be a return to business as usual. That is all we have seen so far but it will not and cannot ever be business as usual for the tens of thousands of families that have been affected.

I spoke with a couple yesterday that had no idea, until last Friday, that they had been swindled by their lender Ulster Bank. They had no idea. They received a letter last Friday from Ulster Bank telling them that, as a result of an internal review, the bank was now aware that it had been overcharging this couple between 2009 and 2015. Ulster Bank explained to the family that even though they had a tracker mortgage the bank had taken it from them and they had not been on the tracker for the past six years. They purchased their house in 2005 but were forced to sell it in 2015. Ulster Bank informed them that they had been overcharged by €40,000. The couple was offered €4,000 by way of redress. Is this the banks' own summary justice system in operation out there for robbing? Ned Kelly robbed from the rich to give to the poor. The Minister is allowing the banks to do this but there is no one to take it off the rich now. Does the Minister agree that the people of this country have been taken for absolute fools by the shadowy cabal of bankers who seem to lack even the slightest element of social conscience? Will the Minister agree that some of these people need to be brought to justice, tried, handcuffed, brought before the courts and sentenced to prison? A prison sentence would be too good for them as far as I am concerned. They should be out rebuilding the lives of the families they have destroyed.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Lest anybody be unaware of the extent and seriousness of this scandal, by the end of September €163 million had been provided back to 3,300 customers. By the end of this process we are talking about close to 30,000 customers who will be entitled to their money back and to redress. This will involve hundreds of millions of euro. This is money that was taken inappropriately from families right across the country, many of whom were put under huge pressure during that period. This is why people are rightly angered and they expect the Government and the Central Bank - independently of each other - to make sure the response is comprehensive.

The Central Bank is engaging with other statutory bodies on this tracker mortgage examination, including An Garda Síochána. They will take the appropriate action in respect of what has happened. I share the Deputy's anger and frustration. I assure him that the Minister for Finance was not mincing his words yesterday when he briefed the Cabinet on this issue. This is not going to be a case of grandstanding for a number of days. The Central Bank will need to see this through with regard to the probe it started back in 2015. The Government will insist on getting a comprehensive answer from the banks on this so we can bring the saga to an end, sooner rather than later, and ensure people get their money back, as well as the appropriate redress they are due.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I think that Oliver Callan will have a field day this weekend when he addresses the Minister's paltry answer. This has gone on for years. We see that the courts do not give protection to the families on these tracker mortgages either and the Central Bank is toothless, useless and totally fruitless. I suppose the banks brought some nice fruitcake in to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, when they came in yesterday for their nice little cosy chat. This is nonsense and a reply of total poppycock from the Government. The banks know that the previous Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan - and I wish him the best of health - just totally ignored it. The new Minister has been in place for some time - the Minister opposite has been in government for nearly seven years - and absolutely nothing has been done. The bankers are friends and supporters of the Government. Members of the Government play golf with them and cannot deny that. The Government will not hurt them at all. Were it to slap them, it would ask how hard it was slapping them in case they were hurt altogether; child protection laws and everything else.

The Minister has to act. Derision and the Taoiseach standing up to call it "shameful" is not enough. The Government must deal with the banks. There is no banking regulation in this country. They have run riot. We were all forced in here in September so many years ago to vote to save the banks but all we got back was the two fingers every time and to every customer. This is not the only robbery that is going on. We are used to seeing gardaí and couriers minding the cash but now the robbers are inside behind the counter. I do not mean the ordinary tellers but those who are deep in the board rooms. Where are the public service directors? They seem to have no function and if they are getting a salary, it is a shame. People are being robbed blind and it is time for the likes of Ned Kelly to resurrect himself for Tipperary. This is outrageous and the Government has shown the families no mercy. Notwithstanding the scale, the Government will do nothing other than to arrange a strong talk from the Minister. That will do nothing without serious action and legislation. If the banks are charged a levy, they will only pass it on to the customers. It is downright, naked fraud.

Deputy Simon Coveney

The first response to that particular contribution is to make a distinction about the thousands of people who work behind the counters-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I did that.

Deputy Simon Coveney

-----in banks to deal with customers in difficult situations every day. They are not the people who should be the target of our ire here. It is senior decision-making in banks that is responsible for what happened in this scandal and that is why it is the most senior decision-makers in banks that the Minister for Finance met yesterday and will meet again today. He will make a comprehensive statement tomorrow on the back of those meetings and we expect as a Government that the banks will also make comprehensive statements before the end of the week in an effort to bring an end to the issue. If they do not, the Government will have to consider further how it will respond.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Show us the money and legislate.