Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 2017

Vol. 962 No. 4

Topical Issue Debate

Protected Disclosures

Deputy Lisa Chambers

Newspaper reports yesterday again raised the issue of one of the Air Corps whistleblowers who is now facing discharge from his employment. Recent events have focused the mind on the failure of the State with regard to whistleblowers and the consequences for those in charge who fail to act. I am deeply concerned that a whistleblower in the Air Corps is facing dismissal from his job for what appear to be issues directly relating to the very issue he raised with the Minister of State on which he had to blow the whistle.

The charge against him is "generalised anxiety disorder and work-related industrial dispute resulting in chronic ineffectivity". I have raised this issue with the Minister of State many times and I am not satisfied with his response and his actions to date on the matter. He has not dealt effectively with the health and safety issues relating to chemicals at Casement Aerodrome that have affected the members serving there at that time. The review the Minister of State initiated produced no answers. There have been no actions to date and we are in exactly the same position today as we were when I first raised the issue in the Dáil.

The Minister of State has not ordered a full health review of people affected. He has not engaged effectively with those affected. The review is quite farcical because the person tasked with the reviewing the issue told the Minister of State that he did not have the information or the capability to do what was asked.

The issue stands. The individual in question has been summoned before a Defence Forces medical review board for medical issues he feels the State actually caused. His case against the State and the issue he raised with the Minister of State is that he is incredibly sick because of the failure of the State to provide him with a safe workplace. It is incredible to think that he could now be dismissed from his job because of those health issues.

Given all that has gone on regarding this issue, is the Minister of State satisfied that this person has been summoned to appear before a medical review board and may lose his job over the matter? What engagements has the Minister of State had on the issue? What will he do to address the matter?

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

In July, I asked the Minister of State the reason the Air Corps was proceeding with attempts to medically dismiss a serving Air Corps health and safety whistleblower, whom the Minister of State had met shortly before, in direct contravention of the Protected Disclosures Act 2014. In reply the Minister of State stated:

The Deputy will appreciate that it would be inappropriate of me to comment on individual personnel cases. However, I can assure the Deputy that the Defence Forces and my Department are fully committed to compliance with the requirements of the Protected Disclosures Act, 2014, and to the protections contained in that Act.

The articles in the Irish Examiner yesterday and today show a clear breach of the spirit and the letter of those protected disclosures. As Deputy Lisa Chambers has outlined, the man in question appeared before a medical hearing this morning in St. Bricin's Military Hospital for the very reason he met the Minister of State - that there was something rotten in the Air Corps in terms of health and safety, as he and other whistleblowers had outlined. His medical condition and others are directly related to mass exposure to highly toxic and carcinogenic chemicals.

What steps has the Minister of State taken to ensure the Defence Forces as a whole, and therefore those involved in this individual case, understand that they must fully comply with the Protected Disclosures Act 2014?

Minister of State at the Department of Defence (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I thank the Deputies for raising this very important issue. I am fully committed to compliance with the requirements of the Protected Disclosures Act 2014 and to the protections contained in that Act. I have directed that processes are put in place to manage protected disclosures across the defence organisation, on both civil and military sides.

The health and welfare of the men and women of the Defence Forces are a priority to me. To this end, I wish to ensure that all protected disclosures made by members of the Defence Forces are and continue to be dealt with in a thorough, fair and independent manner.

I am assured by the Chief of Staff that the military authorities are fully aware of the protections afforded to their members under the Protected Disclosures Act 2014. In order to ensure compliance with this legislation the Defence Forces have implemented general routine order 07/2015, which sets out the policy, procedures and protections afforded to serving personnel on making a protected disclosure. The document was signed and promulgated on 21 August 2015. The Defence Forces are committed to the highest possible standards of compliance with our legal requirements. Their protected disclosures policy is intended to encourage and enable members of the Defence Forces to raise concerns about relevant wrongdoing in the organisation.

The Defence Forces are committed to ensuring that members making a disclosure under the Act will be protected from penalisation or threat of less favourable treatment, subsequent discrimination or disadvantage. The Defence Forces protected disclosures policy gives effect to the obligations and provisions of the Protected Disclosures Act 2014 and does not replace any legal reporting or disclosure requirements arising under other legislation. The Defence Forces remain cognisant of the requirement to ensure the health, safety and welfare of all members. The Defence Forces policy on protected disclosures is intended to cover all aspects of Defence Forces activity including operations outside of Ireland.

Regarding the matter raised by the Deputies, life within the Defence Forces, particularly at operational level, can be physically robust and challenging. To ensure that the health and safety of individuals and those of his or her colleagues are safeguarded, the monitoring of medical status is an important safeguard in military life. Defence Forces regulation A12 provides the regulatory framework for medical treatment in the Defence Forces. These regulations provide for the convening of a medical board in specific circumstances. This can lead to a range of outcomes, including individuals being classed as below Defence Forces medical standards. It is important to note that this is not a disciplinary procedure and among other things it provides a mechanism for appropriately managing cases of long-term sick leave.

Issues of confidentiality are of the utmost importance in dealing with matters such as those raised in this Topical Issue. Individuals are entitled to confidentiality regarding their personnel dealings with their employer, their medical dealings and in other areas such as litigation and protected disclosures. Accordingly, I am severely constrained in what I can say here today. While I cannot discuss medical and other personal details of an individual, I can inform the Deputies that in the case referred to, my overarching concern is that the individual’s rights under protected disclosure legislation are fully protected. I have previously written to the Chief of Staff in this regard, highlighting the requirements for full compliance with protected disclosure legislation.

I have recently written to the Chief of Staff restating my position that the individual concerned is afforded the full protection of the Protected Disclosure Act. I have made clear that no action should be taken that would impinge on his rights in accordance with protected disclosure legislation. I assure the Deputies that, if required, I will take whatever actions are available to me in order to ensure that all individuals who make protected disclosures receive the protection of that legislation.

Deputy Lisa Chambers

The Minister of State has said he was constrained by litigation that was ongoing, but this issue is all over the Irish Examiner newspaper. Mr. Joe Logue reports on it on a regular basis and we all know what has been going on. We may as well discuss it in this House where it is appropriate to do so. I accept that the Minister of State has said he is complying fully with the protected disclosures legislation, but, on a human level, the issue concerns an individual whom both he and I have met and who is very ill. However, he is not the only person who is ill. Many others have been affected, some of whom are now deceased. The allegations made against the State are very serious. They are that it caused them to become ill owing to the lack of health and safety standards and exposure to dangerous and hazardous chemicals, from which they were not protected. The very fact that somebody is ill because of the place in which they work and that they are now being dismissed from their employment by their employer - the State - because of that illness is utterly and morally wrong. The Minister of State said that he will take whatever actions are open to him. What actions are open to him? What about conducting a health review? Why is he not reviewing the health of the people concerned to identify who has been affected? Why wait for a very lengthy litigation process to conclude before acting? The Minister of State has the ability to do so now. I believe he is not doing enough on the issue which we will continue to raise in the House.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I welcome the Minister of State's statement on this issue, especially the last two sentences. one of which reads: "I have made [it] clear that no action should be taken that would impinge on his rights in accordance with [the] protected disclosure legislation". He has also said he will act. We will hold him to that commitment in the event that there is further penalisation of the whistleblower in this instance because the person concerned is not the only one who has faced disciplinary procedures or suffered at the hands of officers who seem to be of the same view as a former Garda Commissioner that whistleblowers are disgraceful. That attitude which is held by some within the Defence Forces will have to change, but such a culture has not been changed fully. The Minister of State is right in saying the environment in the Defence Forces is robust and challenging, but that does not excuse the bullying, victimisation or targeting of whistleblowers who have made claims to the benefit of everyone within the Defence Forces. I hope we will not be back here again if the Minister of State takes the required action, if action is needed.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I thank the Deputies for their comments. I am surprised at Deputy Lisa Chambers, given her professional capacity and legal background, that she does not understand that I cannot discuss confidential information on a whistblower or someone who has made a protected disclosure. As a legal professional, she should know that I cannot discuss it. As a layperson, I understand it, but-----

Deputy Lisa Chambers

The Minister of State is not a layperson.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

No, but the Deputy should understand, given her professional and legal background, that I cannot discuss confidential information. I am surprised that she is not aware of that fact.

Deputy Lisa Chambers

Who decided that it was confidential?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I have listened carefully to the contributions of both Deputies and will conclude by once again giving a commitment to ensure compliance with the Protected Disclosures Act 2014. I have set out that I have been in contact with the Chief of Staff in that regard. Some of the issues raised are personal to an individual, while some are linked with other issues that are the subject of litigation. It would be wholly inappropriate, therefore, for me to comment further on the detail of the case. As a process of litigation had commenced before the protected disclosures were made, the courts are the appropriate forum in which to consider such matters. However, the independent reviewer's report on the protected disclosures made in the Air Corps has been provided for the three individuals who made the disclosures. I asked those who had made the disclosures for their views on the report, which I have recently received from the three individuals concerned. As I have stated, I will consider the next steps to be taken, taking into account the views provided for me by the three individuals in question.

Separately and in parallel to the independent review, following an inspection in 2016, the Air Corps has continued to work with the Health and Safety Authority, HSA, to improve the health, safety and well-being of its members. It should be noted that there is a significant overlap between the HSA's recommendations and those of the independent reviewer. I have been advised that, subject to completion of improvements - the HSA's investigation has been closed - it must be noted that health and safety in the Air Corps are subject to ongoing monitoring and supervision. The health, safety and well-being of each member of the Defence Forces are of great concern. If required, I will take whatever action is necessary and open to me to ensure all individuals who make protected disclosures will receive the protection provided by the legislation.

National Cultural Institutions

Acting Chairman (Deputy Frank O'Rourke)

We have been contacted by the office of the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys, who has advised that the second Topical Issue in the name of Deputy Joan Burton will be taken by the Minister of State, Deputy Paul Kehoe.

Deputy Joan Burton

I had not heard that the Minister was not going to appear in the Chamber. I am disappointed that she is not present as she is the Minister with responsibility for culture and this matter was very much directed at her. I will wait to hear what the Minister of State, Deputy Paul Kehoe, has to say on her behalf, but this is most unsatisfactory. With no disrespect to him, had I been advised of this information, I would not have accepted this arrangement.

I wish to ask Deputy Heather Humphreys as the Minister with responsibility for culture whether she agrees that orchestras, in particular, the two RTÉ orchestras, the national symphony and concert orchestras which were founded in 1948, are an intrinsic part of our culture? Does she agree that music is an intrinsic part of our culture? It is something for which we are known and celebrated throughout the world, yet we seem to be on a slow march towards reducing the numbers of employees working with the orchestras and possibly doing away with one of them entirely.

The Minister has not come into the House to take this matter, but I want to ask her as the Minister with responsibility for culture and a successor to a former Minister, Michael D. Higgins, now President, who established the first Department of Culture, what her vision or fís is for orchestras in the playing of music in this country? Are we on the road to almost having a plot that one might see in an opera in which music, particularly classical and orchestral music in RTÉ, will be killed in a death by a thousand cuts? Already RTÉ is 30 professional musicians short and by next year, it may be 40 short.

I am not aware that in its history Fine Gael has been particularly committed to culture, but this is shocking. When Creative Ireland was established during the centenary commemorations, as the then Tánaiste, I strongly supported widening the investment in culture to rebuild the national cultural institutions, including the National Concert Hall, yet we have an important short debate taking place on the matter today and the Fine Gael-led Government has not been able to send the Minister into the House to take it.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I apologise on behalf of the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys, who, at short notice, has been unable to make it into the Chamber. I remind the Deputy that she was once Tánaiste and a Minister when she would have got other Ministers to take Adjournment Debate matters on her behalf.

Deputy Joan Burton

They always contacted the Deputies involved.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I understand that, but the Minister was unable, at short notice, to come to the Chamber to take this matter and I apologise on her behalf. I have been asked to take it on her behalf.

Our colleague, the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Denis Naughten, has statutory responsibility for broadcasting and his remit includes RTÉ. The Minister, Deputy Heather Humphrey's Department has no role in that regard. She understands RTÉ is an independent public service broadcaster which was established under the Broadcasting Act 2009. Section 114 of the Act sets out the objects of RTÉ which include the objective "to establish and maintain orchestras, choirs and other cultural performing groups". Section 98 of the Act establishes the independence of RTÉ in pursuance of its objects.

The Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment and his officials have certain responsibilities in respect of RTÉ, particularly regarding a range of policy and governance issues. It is understood the RTÉ National Symphony Orchestra and the RTÉ Concert Orchestra provide the only full-time salaried employment for orchestral musicians in Ireland. In line with a model found in over 30 European countries, both orchestras have been part of the public broadcasting company since their foundation by RTÉ in the 1940s. As a result, they reach large national and international broadcast audiences, in addition to their live event audiences for large year-round programmes. Both RTÉ orchestras are funded by RTÉ as part of its public service remit.

The Arts Council which comes within the remit of the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht provides funding for two smaller and regularly performing orchestras - the Irish Chamber Orchestra and the Irish Baroque Orchestra - which are occasionally supported through Culture Ireland for their work abroad. The Irish Chamber Orchestra which retains 22 musicians on part-time retainer contracts specialises in classical music written for small string chamber orchestras. The Irish Baroque Orchestra which has a core of 12 to 16 uncontracted project-based freelance players is a specialist orchestra that plays predominantly 17th and 18th century classical music exclusively on historical period instruments. Both of these smaller orchestras have lower levels of public activity than the two full-time RTÉ orchestras. In 2017 the Arts Council allocated funding of €916,000 to the Irish Chamber Orchestra, while an allocation of €208,000 was made to the Irish Baroque Orchestra. The three other professional performing groups supported by Arts Council funding are the Crash Ensemble, Chamber Choir Ireland and the Contempo Quartet. All three groups receive occasional project-funding support from Culture Ireland for performances abroad. In addition to the two orchestras and the three regularly funded groups, a large and varying number of established and ad hoc professional groups access non-recurring public funding through Arts Council funding programmes to support them in touring, commissions of new work, one-off music projects and fixed-term residencies.

Deputy Joan Burton

Having listened to the poor Minister of State who was asked to deliver that script, I know why the senior Minister did not come in. It is a disgrace. We are proud of our culture in this country. It is an insult to the musicians who work in the two orchestras that the Minister responsible for culture was unable to grace this Chamber for the debate. I mean no disrespect to the Minister of State, Deputy Paul Kehoe, when I say that. At least he had the courage to be here. He was certainly handed a patsy to read.

Will the Government apologise to musicians? Will it apologise to the large numbers of young people who are studying music to degree level with a view to becoming professional musicians? Where is their employment going to be if we are working systematically to downgrade the number of people who work with the RTÉ orchestras, possibly with a view to axing one of them entirely? Music lovers and the members of the Musicians Union of Ireland and SIPTU want to see the orchestras restored to their full status. We want to see a thriving culture of music learning and appreciation in schools and at degree level in universities. We probably have the smallest orchestra provision of any small European country. Our orchestras are based in RTÉ because the custom when they were founded in 1948 was to have radio orchestras that broadcast to people around the country in order that they could enjoy classical music.

The Minister of State was part of the discussions when Topical Issue debates were introduced. One of the reforms promised by the Government at the time was that the relevant Minister would appear. If he or she could not appear, which can happen, an apology would be provided as part of the discussion with the Deputy who placed the Topical Issue. We were told that it would be possible, with the agreement of the Chair, for the Deputy in question to refuse to proceed with the Topical Issue on the day and ask to raise it with the Minister in the Chamber on another day. Will the Minister of State ask the senior Minister to reschedule this debate in order that we can be given some answers as part of a response in favour of the retention of the orchestras?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I dispute the Deputy's questioning of the Government's commitment to the national orchestras. As I said in my initial reply, the statutory remit of the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment includes broadcasting and RTÉ. I set out the position on the RTÉ orchestras. The Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht is very committed to culture. I agree with what the Deputy said about the importance of music, culture and everything like it. The Irish Chamber Orchestra receives annual funding of €916,000.

Deputy Joan Burton

We are not talking about the Irish Chamber Orchestra but the RTÉ orchestras.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

It is important to note that the Minister, Deputy Heather Humphreys, does not have overall responsibility for RTÉ.

Deputy Joan Burton

The Taoiseach does not agree with the Minister of State. He has told me that he wants to see the orchestras being retained.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Absolutely. Of course, we want to see them being retained. As a Minister of State on this side of the House, I want to see them being retained. This matter falls under the stewardship of the Minister, Deputy Denis Naughten, whose statutory remit includes broadcasting and RTÉ.

Deputy Joan Burton

Does that mean that the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht has no interest in the orchestras in RTÉ?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

The Deputy is pulling at straws when she tries to accuse the Minister, Deputy Heather Humphreys, of having no interest in this matter. Of course, she has huge interest in it. Perhaps the Deputy should speak to the Minister, Deputy Denis Naughten, in the first instance to see how we can proceed on the issue.

Deputy Joan Burton

As her ministerial title indicates, the Minister, Deputy Heather Humphreys, is responsible for culture.

Childcare Services

Deputy Joan Collins

I thank the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Katherine Zappone, for coming into the House to discuss this question.

I have received an email from Ms Aoife Hannan, the project manager with the Kilmainham Inchicore Network. It was sent on behalf of the child care professional group in Inchicore. The Minister has received a professional report that has been drawn up since February 2016. She knows what is contained in the report which was pulled together by representatives of primary schools, secondary school principals, child care and preschool services, the Garda, youth workers and community, social and psychological services in the area. Those who started to work on the report in February 2016 met officials from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs in March this year. They emailed the first version of the report to the Department on 14 July, but they did not receive a reply. They subsequently emailed it again on 19 October. I ask the Minister to confirm that she has received the report and that she will reply to it. I am aware that those involved in producing the report were emailed by a member of staff in the Department this morning. They were told that the departmental response was ready and would issue shortly. That response is welcome and the individuals in question are delighted with it.

The Minister will agree that the report, which is a review of evidence-based local and national statistical data, paints a picture of the underlying demographic conditions in lower Inchicore and highlights the level of disadvantage in the area. It goes through the levels of child poverty, male and female unemployment, deprivation, lone parents and homeless children, Pobal reports, population increases, etc., all of which it breaks down into categories.

It depicts the disadvantaged situation in that area and the dire need for solutions to be put in place in the community. Section 2 discusses how a comparative study with other areas would help explain conditions and needs in the area and section 3 outlines the loss of services which has occurred in the area. Case studies to humanise the situation as experienced on the ground were outlined at the meeting with the Minister's officials on 29 March. Section 4 gives a review and solutions are offered in section 5. The last section is a brief summary and outlines the conclusions of the report. I would like to hear the Minister's reply to this. The group has asked me to extend an invitation to her to come into the community in response to the report so that she can actually see the area, get a feel for it and meet the different organisations involved in pulling this together.

Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (Deputy Katherine Zappone)

I thank Deputy Collins for raising this issue. I can confirm that officials from my Department met with representatives from the Inchicore child care professional group earlier this year, as the Deputy mentioned. As the Deputy has outlined, at this meeting the group submitted a report on a wide range of issues which it felt were having a negative impact on the lives of children and young people in the Inchicore area. These ranged from the funding of youth initiatives to the sustainability of child care services. Many of the issues raised are those that I have been seeking to address during my time as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

I commend the group on a comprehensive report and assure it that my Department has been working hard to address the issues raised within it. One issue that struck a chord during the group's meeting with officials was the fact that parents from lower income families could often not afford to pay the difference between the subvention available to cover the cost of child care and the cost of delivering child care or the fee charged. This had led to a situation in which the sustainability of community-based services in the area was threatened. It also led to an unfortunate situation in which the service had to chase parents for top-up payments which they could sometimes ill afford. That is deeply distressing. To address this problem I have recently increased the amount of subvention available to many of these families by as much as 50%. Subsidies per week per child have now increased from as much as €95 per week to €145 per week. Some 34,000 children across the country are now registered for subsidies such as this.

To improve the sustainability of services, I have also recently announced an increase of 7% in the capitation my Department pays for the early childhood care and education, ECCE, scheme. This will come into effect next September. This will deliver extra income to child care services for the 114,000 children expected to participate in ECCE from that time. I have also introduced a universal, non-means tested child care subsidy scheme for children under three. This reduces the cost of child care for parents by over €1,000 per year per child. In addition, in recognition of the administrative role which child care services play in delivering Department of Children and Youth Affairs schemes, especially services such as those in Inchicore which deliver targeted schemes, I have made available €18 million in funding in 2017 as payment to the services for supporting these programmes. This funding has also been secured for 2018 onwards.

I recently announced an additional €2.12 million of funding for family resource centres. Up to €10,000 is being made available to each of the existing 109 family resource centres. In total, €16.37 million will be invested next year by Tusla in its family resource centre programme, an increase of 21% on 2017. Extra funding of €1.5 million to support the provision of youth services throughout the country has also just been announced. This brings overall investment in both national and local youth work services to €58.9 million.

While these changes may not fully restore funding to its peak they represent a hard fought step in the right direction. It is not always possible to restore specific projects that have ended but by leveraging additional funding into the areas of child care, family resource centres and youth work we are helping to strengthen the key services which the Deputy's group has identified as struggling from cuts made during times of austerity. I have fought hard to increase investment in these areas. Investment in child care, for example, is up 87% in three years. I know that much more needs to be done to get to where we want to be, and I look forward to working with the Deputy and hearing her suggestions in that regard.

Deputy Joan Collins

I thank the Minister. The case the group is making is that there is a particular need within the lower Inchicore area, where there is quite considerable deprivation. It is suggesting that the Minister target specific initiatives which would assist the community in the area. The level of child poverty in Our Lady of Lourdes national school is 22%. The rate in Dublin generally is 6.6%. We are talking about a community where the child poverty rate is 16 percentage points above the Dublin average. The unemployment rate is 38% in that area while the national average is 7.1%, so we are talking about a community in which the unemployment rate is 31 percentage points higher than the national average. The level of male unemployment is 30.4% in the Myra Close and Turvey Avenue area, 22 percentage points above the national average. The report makes points about child poverty in the area of St. Michael's Estate specifically, an area which is suffering severe deprivation. Surely there are initiatives which could be looked at. The group wants to sit down and talk to the Minister about such initiatives. It understands that money has come through. The Minister has made many points about the increases she has managed to get in other areas.

This area also has the highest density of DEIS schools. The need for DEIS schools and the need to provide more supports for children is recognised in the community. If this generational poverty continues, it will cause more hardship, more drug problems and more chaos in the community, and there is a lot of chaos in the community already. We can do an awful lot more to redirect resources to this area. The group is talking about money, but not just money. It is also looking at other areas which could support the community. It would be very good if the Minister could link in with the group at some stage.

Deputy Katherine Zappone

I thank Deputy Collins again. She represents the concerns and interests of her people very well. It is important that she is able to do that and I hear the concerns. Over the course of the years I have been working, I have had the opportunity to go to Inchicore and to meet some of the people there. I have come into contact with some of the real challenges which the Deputy has identified but I have also come into contact with the extraordinary group of professionals there and seen the community spirit and the resilience of both the people living there and those working there. I commend them on that resilience and spirit. I mean that. It has inspired a lot of my own work in other settings.

The report which the Deputy has provided to myself and the officials, which was prepared by a range of professionals in the area who worked together to put forward their case, is really important. Ultimately, the only way an area can change, particularly in respect of the primary issues which the Deputy identified towards the end of her contribution, and the only way it can challenge, reduce, shift and change generational poverty, is for all the different groups to work together. I have some understanding of how challenging that is. The fact that they have come together in this regard is very impressive.

The Deputy described the level of disadvantage in terms of child poverty. She is probably aware that, as part of a cross-Government approach, we have tried to identify new ways to work on this very challenging social issue. We have come to the conclusion that a lot of it is about investing in services as well as increasing opportunities for the employment of parents. I have told the Deputy about many of the different ways in which I have made additional investment in services throughout the short tenure of my ministry. At the same time, I have given her national figures. The Deputy is looking at her constituency. She has asked me to come and see the area and I will do so.

Minor Works Scheme

Deputy Declan Breathnach

Boards of management, principals and parents' committees across this country are struggling to run schools due to the lack of a proper and adequate funding structure.

I ask the Minister for Education and Skills to introduce a defined timescale for the payment of minor works grants to all schools. Is he aware that delays in the payment of approved minor works grants are causing huge financial difficulty for schools that are trying to keep their accounts in credit and that the Department has said that such grants will be considered in the context of the Department's overall capitation position, which is unfair for schools desperately in need of these moneys? I am all too aware of these problems as I was a teacher for 35 years, 23 of which were spent as a teaching principal in a small primary school that struggled every year, regardless of who was in Government.

Circular 62/2013 states that the grant will only be paid in future years as funding permits. However, the grant first came into operation in 1997 and has been issued in all years since then with the exception of the 2012-13 school year. Schools rely on the grant as part of their operational income as there is always a need for funds to cover the type of works covered by the scheme. The Acting Chairman, Deputy O'Rourke, discussed this matter with me on many occasions in regard to the issue of playgrounds in his constituency not being available to be used because of delays in minor works grants. If we are serious about health and safety as well as improving children's physical health, surely this issue needs to be addressed and we need to ensure it is on a firm footing.

The principals of schools in my constituency are under a lot of stress trying to balance the books as schools are not permitted to go into overdraft except in exceptional circumstances. They have told me that the minor works grant has not yet issued this year. In answer to a parliamentary question I tabled earlier this year, the Minister said that the overall 2017 capital position, and expenditure levels in particular, would be assessed in the late autumn and that the issue of the 2017-18 minor works grant would be determined at that time.

One of the principals to whom I have spoken said that she, along with a huge number of her colleagues around the country, is absolutely outraged to be back in this position. There has been much engagement on the topic on the website of the Irish Primary Principals Network, IPPN. There is no point issuing IT grants, for example, if principals cannot keep the school running on a day-to-day basis. The minor works grant should be mandatory rather than dependent on money left over at the end of a calendar year.

The schools in question are depending on the grant arriving in November. Their principals are fearful that the schools will not otherwise get to January, when the first of the capitation grant money arrives, without applying for an overdraft. This can be extremely stressful for staff. Many schools are reliant on parents' committees constantly running fundraisers to get them through, along with the minor works grant.

The Capital Review 2016-20 states in regard to the minor works grant to primary schools: "It is not possible to maintain the school infrastructure without the payment of the minor works grant and an annual summer works scheme.” Primary schools are the Cinderella of the Department's funding regime and I ask the Minister to address the issue.

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Richard Bruton)

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue and I know it is of significant concern. I have to put my cards on the table because we are working to very constrained capital budgets and have been through a period of very rapid population growth, which is very good fortune for us in one sense. We have to provide approximately 12,000 to 15,000 new places and 5,000 replacement places every year. Those demands are putting the Department to the pin of its collar to ensure there are places for children when they turn up in September. This year, the Department will deliver almost 14,000 new places and 5,000 additional replacement places That has to be prioritised, which has put a squeeze on some other funding areas, as the Deputy will understand, such as emergency grants, summer works and minor works. The Deputy made the point that it would be great if the minor works grant were mandatory but I have to live within the capital framework provided and the Deputy knows the background to that. Over the past eight years, the overall capital programme has been cut to one third of what it was at its peak. We are living in a very financially constrained period. Although I acknowledge the minor works grant is an important element of funding, we are continuing to review our work programme both this year and next in terms of meeting the demands of the new schools we have to build and places we have to provide. Since 2011, we have provided 120,000 new school places and 200 new schools, and that is being done in accordance with a very strict system whereby it is only when an area can show a shortage of school places that we commit to build, as the Acting Chairman, Deputy O'Rourke, knows. That is a constraining factor.

We are continuing to review our funding position but I cannot give a commitment as to when we will be in a position to make a decision on the issue. I am very conscious of the concern expressed by the Deputy and many others on all sides of the House. I am working with the Department to seek a solution.

Deputy Declan Breathnach

I thank the Minister and acknowledge the constraints under which he is working. Will there be a minor works grant for schools before Christmas? The principals and boards of management need to know that because otherwise they need to look elsewhere for funds. As we head into December, schools need to have enough money to pay insurance, heating bills, ancillary staff, electricity, fire alarms and so on. They are unsuccessfully trying to manage on a shoestring. To have to jump from one grant to another, never quite sure when the next one might land in the bank account, if, from what the Minister is saying, it happens at all, is no way of running finances. I ask that the Minister seek to guarantee that the yearly minor works grant would be made mandatory and end the practice of making this essential funding dependent on leftover capital that may be available in the Department.

Furthermore, the Department needs to carry out an audit of what it costs boards of management to run their schools and provide a realistic level of funding for minor works grants and capitation grants. The use of the word "grant" should be removed because this funding, as I said, should be mandatory and is part of the necessary expenditure for running a school.

Will a grant for minor works be issued before Christmas or is the Minister fearful it will not? If the answer is in the negative, schools need to be informed.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I regret that I am currently not in a position to answer the Deputy on that issue. I understand he is saying this should be the top priority in the capital budget but if children had no school to attend next September, the Deputy would be clamouring about hopeless planning such that the Department cannot use its capital in order to ensure every child has a school place. We are trying to balance all those conflicting pressures. It is often the situation that there are more schools in the pipeline waiting for the go-ahead than there is funding available and we have to manage our funding to meet those demands. That is the constraint under which we are working.

As regards capital spending, both this and the former Government led by Fianna Fáil sought to protect our education system as much as possible and that continues to be the case. As the Deputy knows, we have made commitments regarding an increased pupil-teacher ratio, guidance counsellors, the resource teaching model and SNAs. We have sought to meet those very immediate children's needs.

It is a balancing act, but all I can say to the Deputy is that I am very aware of the concern he expresses. I will work with my Department to see whether we can resolve the issue.