Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Feb 2018

Vol. 965 No. 5

Topical Issue Debate

Citizens Information Services

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

Táim buíoch don deis atá agam inniu labhairt ar an ábhar seo because there is a lot of disquiet and concern among those working in the area. It is significant that 2018 marks the 50th anniversary of the appointment of Tomás Roseingrave as national director of Muintir na Tíre because he identified the services we are discussing as fundamental to the dynamics of community action and development. Today we are speaking about the Citizens Information Board; the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, and the Citizens Information service. Numerous parliamentary questions have been tabled in the House and there was also a debate on a Fianna Fáil Private Members' motion on the issue to which I contributed. There was also a Sinn Féin Private Members' Bill. I acknowledge the expertise and professionalism of those involved in MABS and the Citizens Information service which have long been recognised, both nationally and internationally.

Some information on the restructuring issue is already available. On 30 January, in reply to a parliamentary question tabled by Deputy Thomas P. Broughan, the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection stated, "In November 2014 the Board of the Citizens Information Board decided to restructure the governance arrangements of local CIS and MABS services." That implies that the decision was taken during Ms Sylda Lankford's tenure as chairperson of the Citizens Information Board. In June 2015, however, the chairperson-elect of the board, Ms Ita Mangan, told an Oireachtas committee:

No decisions have been made on reconfiguration or exactly how things will be done. Certain proposals have been made but no decisions have been made.

It appears that Ms Mangan did not share her predecessor's view that the board had taken that decision. She was supported in that regard by the then Secretary General, Ms Niamh O'Donoghue, in formal evidence that she gave to the Committee of Public Accounts on 28 May 2015.

In its annual report for 2016 the Citizens Information Board stated the decision to proceed with "a more streamlined ... model" had been taken in October of that year. A press statement by the board in May 2017 retracted that statement, stating "[t]he decision to reorganise and modernise the service took place in November 2014". Subsequently, the then Minister, Deputy Leo Varadkar, now Taoiseach, in replying to a parliamentary question tabled by Deputy Noel Grealish in 2017, broke new ground by stating the Citizens Information Board had decided on 15 February 2017 to restructure the governance arrangements of both services. A month earlier he had moved an amendment to the Private Members' Bill asking the House to note that the decision taken by the statutory board of the Citizens Information Board had been taken on 15 February 2017.

Here we have a decision which is, in effect, a repudiation by an agency within the public sector of the will of Dáil Éireann, as expressed in the formal division on 30 March 2017, and the repudiation of the position of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection which had issued its unambiguous report on 1 June 2017. It is being seen as a decision to annihilate the tradition of community action and the principles of community development that have always informed the Citizens Information service and MABS. We do not know who made the decision, when it was made or if it was made at all. What we do know, however, is that the process needs to be reset. We need to go back to the beginning and consultation in order to do it correctly and well in order that we acknowledge that the Citizens Information service has been a safe, independent space that is citizen-directed and impartial.

I will finish by quoting from a recent article by Breda O'Brien in The Irish Times. She commented:

For CIB, the old adage, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, seems to translate as: “If it ain’t broke, fix it good and proper, and continue to do so in the face of opposition from the Dáil, the joint committee on social protection, and local protest to boot”.

Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection (Deputy Regina Doherty)

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue and appreciate how forensic she has been in outlining the background to it.

The Citizens Information Board is a statutory body established by the Oireachtas. In addition to its statutory responsibilities relating to information and advocacy service provision, it has statutory responsibility for the countrywide networks of Citizens Information services and the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS. The Citizens Information Board has been allocated €57.410 million by the Department to fund its activities and those of its service delivery partners in 2018.

In November 2014 the board of the Citizens Information Board decided to restructure local Citizens Information service and MABS networks.

In October 2016, the board decided the new structure should be regionally based. In February 2017, the board adopted a recommendation that the current structure of 93 individual local companies would be changed to a 16 regional company model, comprising eight citizens information service, CIS, and eight Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, companies. The changes are being made at local company board level only.

The valuable work carried out by employees and volunteers working in CIS and employees of MABS will continue as heretofore to the same excellent standards. The staff and boards across the CIS and MABS networks have been assured by the Citizens Information Board, CIB, that there will be no change to the terms and conditions of staff, no diminution of services for those who use them and no closure of service delivery points. I am aware there has been some opposition to the board's decision by a small number of objectors, as this has been raised both in the Chamber and at meetings held by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Employment Affairs and Social Protection in the wake of the CIB's decision. I am also aware of the cost-benefit analysis of the new regional company model, which was provided by the CIB to the Oireachtas joint committee on 21 September 2017, and which indicates strong support for the decision of the board to proceed to implement the new governance arrangements.

The governance structure of the CIB and MABS network is a matter for the board of the CIB. It is not a matter for the Minister or the House. As a statutory body, the board of the CIB has the sole right to make decisions on its day-to-day operations as it sees fit. The board is clear this change is necessary to ensure the CIB and the delivery of services it funds adequately meet the requirements of the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and the compliance requirements of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, given the significant level of taxpayers' money involved.

It must be remembered that CIB and MABS services are 100% State funded. The aim of the change being implemented by the board of the CIB is to improve the effectiveness of the control environment, financial management and governance of the CIS and MABS networks because they are entirely funded by the Exchequer. The change is also about consolidating managerial and administrative efforts, focusing on front-line service delivery to citizens, improving the consistency and quality of service delivery and, where possible, extending services to and for those who need them.

The CIB executive is currently implementing the decision taken by its board, as it is required to do. An implementation group, with cross-sectoral representation was set up to assist with the transition to the new governance model. The CIB has, and will continue to, provide the necessary information and support to each of the local companies and their chairpersons and boards throughout the transitional period. Information sessions have already been held for chairpersons for the 38 companies transitioning to the regional companies in phase 1. Further sessions will be held for companies transitioning in the remaining phases. It is expected the full transition to the 16 new companies will take up to two years to complete. All companies will be properly supported by the CIB every step of the way.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister for her reply. I have no doubt her reply will be looked at by those who have concerns and those who are critical of what is happening in this regard. From what I have heard from certain people, I do not believe it is just a small number of objectors. If this was in the best interests of everybody concerned, namely, those working for and those availing of the service, I do not believe we would have seen the consternation and dismay we have seen in the various debates on this matter. It is about evidence. It is not about people wanting to maintain the status quo.

The Minister referred to a cost-benefit analysis. Was there a risk analysis in that? What was the extent of consultations in that process? We all agree on the important service MABS has provided. Its mortgage advisers have almost seen 5,000 cases since 2015. The members of the current voluntary boards and CIS have a wide range of experience, much local knowledge and a genuine interest in the work, as well as wanting to make a difference. CIS has almost 1,000 volunteers working directly with the public. The whole debate has been causing them much stress and anxiety.

The 2010 Pathfinder report stated the board of the CIB places independence as a central principle for all projects coming under its remit. Core to CIS is that whole independence and impartiality. That is where some of the concerns are coming from about what is being proposed. Is that local voluntary effort being valued and respected?

Deputy Regina Doherty

The CIB is a statutory body which must carry out its role as set down by resolution of this House, including its responsibility for CIS and MABS. From my experience as the Minister involved in this particular service delivery, the members of the board of the CIB comprise some of the most experienced and competent individuals I have encountered. It is those people who have made the decision to restructure the governance arrangements. It was not done lightly and it was done after five years of consultation. I appreciate different people will say different things. However, the notes of meetings show this was first mooted nearly five years ago and the conversation carried on until the board made its decision in February 2017.

As are its right and responsibility, the board considers as one of its core objectives the delivery of valuable services to users by optimising the potential to improve the quality and consistency of those services. There are plenty of reasons, as has been laid down by the CIB during the numerous debates in the Chamber and in the Oireachtas joint committee, why it has made these changes. Although people are expressing concerns as to the changes being made, nobody can point to what they think will happen that will cause a diminution of services or make them less effective, consistent or supportive. In fact, the services will either be equal or better because of the new governance arrangements. The delivery of services on the ground will show no difference except by being enhanced where there is not a delivery of services. There will be no dilution of services or of effective management locally. There will be a new national governance maintained by 16 regional bodies, as opposed to 93 local bodies beforehand.

The board takes its obligations seriously to operate to the highest governance levels. That was probably its root reason for these governance changes. It could not potentially stand over a claim that all operations were working at an equal level or on an equal footing. The board is entirely independent of me, the House and any individual Deputy. It values exceptionally its staff and volunteers. I was in Dublin Castle several months ago, attending a day out for volunteers, where I met the most gracious and energetic people who have been providing services on behalf of CIS and MABS, regionally and locally, for donkey's years. The CIB very much values and appreciates their work.

Orthodontic Services

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We have no choice but to suspend.

Deputy Regina Doherty

I can stay. If I am not able to provide an answer, I will revert to Deputy Burke. Will that be sufficient?

Deputy Peter Burke

Yes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The purpose of this debate is to make the Deputy's case to the Minister for Health. It is not the Deputy's fault. As we have been waiting for approximately four minutes, I recommend that we suspend for ten minutes. No one will lose out.

Deputy Regina Doherty

I am quite happy to take this Topical Issue debate instead of suspending, which would just waste everyone's time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for selecting for debate the critical issue of the shortage of orthodontic consultants in the midlands. We are at crisis point as regards interventions for young children. I met a number of parents at one of my recent weekly clinics in my constituency office who had been affected by this situation. One was a lady whose son had been on the waiting list for in excess of 18 months. Cousins of his in another part of the country and who are much younger than him have already received treatment. Despite having waited longer than 18 months, there is still no timeframe for his treatment.

In another case, a young boy spent nine years on the waiting list. After seven years, he was referred to Carlow for private treatment under the national waiting list initiative that was rolled out at the time. His problem had advanced significantly during those seven years, which meant that he was referred back to the Midlands Regional Hospital at Mullingar, where he has spent a further two years on the waiting list. That is nine years in total. He will turn 22 in July.

These are young and vulnerable children and this issue is critical in terms of their self-confidence, body image and pressure from peers. Prevention is better than cure. After a prolonged period, problems like these grow much worse and require surgical intervention, which is more expensive for the State and comes at a significant cost to the well-being of the young people in question.

Currently, there are 2.5 whole-time equivalent consultants in the midlands covering Tullamore, Portlaoise, Athlone, Longford and Mullingar. An advertisement was placed to recruit another orthodontist. Why did that not succeed? It is unacceptable that young and vulnerable people have spent as much as nine years on a waiting list for the treatment they need. The Department and we as a State and a people cannot stand over cases being allowed to worsen to the point of requiring surgical intervention. I would like answers for those involved.

Our resources are improving, but we need to show that on the ground. For how long has the position been vacant? What are the details of the recruitment campaigns that were run? Where were they advertised and why did they not work? What remuneration was offered and was it competitive with other jurisdictions? If services are stressed right now with 2.5 whole-time equivalents, what were the new contract's terms of employment? How many children in the midlands are on the waiting list for orthodontic services? We need to know that. As far as I can ascertain from working on the ground with my constituents, the number is significant. What efforts have been made since the HSE's last recruitment campaign?

The examples I have provided are snapshots of two vulnerable children, neither of whom has yet received a date for surgery. They are still waiting in the unknown. One will turn 22 years of age in July and requires surgical treatment now. Under the waiting list initiative, he has been passed from the private sector back into the public sector and has still not received answers.

Deputy Regina Doherty

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. From personal experience with my own little lady at home, I can speak about the length of and variations in the waiting lists.

In line with the commitment in A Programme for a Partnership Government to provide more timely access to orthodontic care, the HSE has undertaken a procurement of orthodontic services with a number of private service providers. Since commencing in 2016, this has enabled treatment for an additional 1,180 of the longest waiting patients. Approximately 400 of them were from the midlands.

Another measure being introduced to achieve this aim involves upskilling staff - dental hygienists or dental nurses - to become orthodontic therapists. Orthodontic therapists carry out a certain range of orthodontic treatments under the prescription and direct supervision of a specialist or consultant orthodontist. This facilitates a greater throughput of patients. Four orthodontic therapists are now in place. For each therapist, approximately 150 extra patients are removed from waiting lists annually.

Under Directive 201/24/EU, now commonly referred to as the cross-border directive, which I believe the Deputy alluded to, it is open to persons entitled to public patient health care in Ireland to choose to avail of that health care in another EU or EEA country or Switzerland. Assistance is provided by the cross-border health care directive department of the HSE. Access to treatment under the directive is based on the referral of the treating clinician.

The issue raised by the Deputy is an operational matter for the HSE. The orthodontic service for Longford and Westmeath is part of the midlands orthodontic service. The HSE advises that there is a centralised waiting list in the four counties of Laois, Offaly, Longford and Westmeath. This is to ensure equity of access within those counties and prioritisation of greatest clinical need. Currently, 1,896 service users are on that waiting list.

I am informed by the HSE that there have been three recruitment campaigns to fill the vacant post of consultant orthodontist in the area but that, unfortunately, they have not been successful. There are 2.6 whole-time equivalent specialist orthodontists, supported by dental nurses and clerical staff, covering clinics in Tullamore, Portlaoise, Athlone and Longford. The HSE is actively seeking ways to increase the number of children being seen and to reduce the waiting times for orthodontics. The post will be re-advertised and the HSE will continue to seek local cover.

The HSE will continue to seek to fill the vacant post to provide orthodontic services in a more timely manner than is being done at the moment. Other means will also be used to tackle the waiting lists. The Department of Health is at an advanced stage of developing a new national oral health policy. Future provision of oral health services, including orthodontics, will be informed by the new policy, which is being led by the Chief Dental Officer.

The aim is to develop a model of care that will enable preventative approaches to be prioritised, improve access, which is what we are here to talk about today, and support interventions appropriate to the current needs.

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the Minister for her response. She spoke about equality of access but it is very hard for me to go back and explain that to the parents of a nine year old who has been waiting over 18 months or to the 21 year old who has been waiting nine years. It does not ring true. The cross-border initiative is used by a lot of people in the State. Unfortunately, it does not suit everyone because payment has to be made upfront. There are people whose economic circumstances mean they cannot afford to do it so it is beyond their control. We have to be very clear on this. If the State is offering orthodontic treatment to people who are in vulnerable positions and we are spending a huge amount of money, at record levels, in the health service, we need to say we can treat them within a reasonable timeframe. We have taken 180 of the longest-waiting patients off the list but if a 22 year old has been waiting nine years, I shudder to think how long some of the 180 people have been waiting. Where is the equality of access which should be its cornerstone? I cannot emphasise it enough. We get frustrated as public representatives when we see vulnerable people and children like this in our clinics who need this treatment. It frustrates politicians when a small bit of early intervention can save them invasive surgery years down the line. The HSE is getting money and the Government should recognise that having three recruitment campaigns represents a failure in the HSE. It has had three recruitment campaigns but has not secured a consultant when there are lots of them in the private sector. We cannot access them under the NPF because the conditions do not allow for it. We really need to get on top of it before it gets out of control.

Deputy Regina Doherty

I appreciate everything the Deputy has said. The only thing I will say again in the HSE's defence is that it is actively trying. It is not as if we do not acknowledge there are waiting times we are not happy with. That is why there are specific objectives in A Programme for a Partnership Government to address those. The national dental care policy is being devised. We have been waiting for a while but it is definitely coming this year. If the recruitment programme was successful we might be having a different conversation with regard to the waiting times in the four counties I have described today. Every objective is being looked at to make sure we improve it in a timely manner. It is not only politicians who are frustrated. The mammies of the young girls and young fellows who have an overbite that needs to be corrected are also frustrated. I am not even talking about the level of surgery the Deputy talked about the 22 year old young man needing. They are formative years. They are the years in which they get goofy and get slagged in school. Our main objective, apart from giving the best health care we can, is to do it in a timely manner. Those objectives are being looked at to try to achieve the programme for Government initiatives this year.

Third Level Funding

Deputy Michael Collins

The Sherkin Island Development Society, under its chairman, Michael Collins, who is no relation, has run what should simply be called a course of excellence, the Bachelor of Arts in visual art on the island off Baltimore since 2012. It has worked closely in that time with the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Dublin Institute of Technology, the local authority, which is Cork County Council, and the Sherkin Island community. They have worked together in funding and in the huge task of organising the course. Development officer, Aisling Moran, and the Sherkin Island group tell us that verbal commitments were given to the group from all concerned that funding would remain in place but in the past 12 months the local authority has reneged on its commitment, first stating it would not give the €20,000 that was previously committed and then saying it would only give €10,000 from the economic development fund and no more. All sorts of conflicting reports have been given as to why the local authority wants out. I am genuine in my belief that the local authority does not fully realise what it is doing. What is economic development money for? Any other local authority would be jumping out of its skin to fund something like this and to get such a prestigious course to an island in its jurisdiction. There are eight islands in my constituency and my respect for the island people is so high that I started my election campaign on an island some time back. Whiddy Island, Bere Island, Dursey Island, Cape Clear Island and the rest, like Sherkin, are doing their utmost to keep the life in their islands. This DIT course was a major boost to the island and the surrounding communities of Baltimore, Union Hall, Glandore, Leap and Skibbereen. Many families travelled with the students to west Cork each weekend while the course was ongoing. Councillors from west Cork are fully supportive of the local authority restoring the €20,000. Why are their voices being ignored? Are they not, like myself, elected by the people and answerable to the people? In one weekend in May, 1,000 people visited the island for the degree exhibition. At a time when traditional island incomes from farming and fishing are under threat, this course is a major boost to the island. It also created three skilled jobs for the community, with three roles divided between four people. Will the Minister of State give the island people of Sherkin hope that the €10,000 will be found to save the course?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I too want to put my shoulder to the wheel on this very important issue. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting it for discussion today. The continuation of this very successful programme with Dublin Institute of Technology is of massive importance. We all have to work together in whatever way we can to avoid the teaching staff being made redundant in the next three weeks. There are difficulties getting Cork County Council to comply with the commitments given to support the programme. The background to the matter is that the programme has been running on Sherkin Island for some years now. It is enthusiastically supported by DIT, the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, local and national politicians and the local community of west Cork. In 2016, Cork County Council committed to providing the €20,000 of funding that would enable the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht to pay a grant of €40,000. The combination of both these funding sources of €60,000 was deemed adequate to maintain the programme while there was a commitment from the council to further enhance the programme in line with the Government policy on rural development. The Minister of State knows that in the programme for Government, the Government made many commitments with regard to rural Ireland. This is a typical case in point which could not be more sincere. The Minister of State might ask how he is responsible for what Cork County Council reneges on.

I thank Deputy Collins for his important work on this issue to date. We want to maintain our islands. We want to keep people living on, going to and visiting the islands and having an economic vibrancy about them. Taking away this combined €60,000 would be disastrous. I am asking the Government to use its influence with Cork County Council - it is only €10,000 - to make sure the money is provided because there will be a massive pay-off in the local community.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I thank the Deputies for raising this matter. I am standing in for the Minister of State, Deputy John Halligan, who has asked me to reply to the Deputies.

The position is that the Department of Education and Skills allocates recurrent funding to the Higher Education Authority, HEA, for direct disbursement to the HEA designated higher education institutions. The HEA allocates this funding as a block grant to the institutions, including Dublin Institute of Technology, DIT. As autonomous bodies, the internal disbursement of this funding, along with any funding it receives from private sources, is a matter for the individual institution. The Bachelor of Arts in visual art has been delivered by DIT in partnership with the Sherkin Island Development Society for the past 14 years. The programme is a full-time honours degree programme delivered on Sherkin Island. It was developed and designed by DIT in collaboration with the Sherkin Island Development Society. The programme represents an innovative approach to programme delivery and partnership in education. The programme engages explicitly with the Sherkin Island community and fosters a critical understanding of the community’s cultural and economic relationships. By means of this partnership, DIT provides the necessary academic input, with lectures taking place in Sherkin by video link. The Sherkin Island Development Society provides the administrative assistance and facilities to ensure the smooth running of the programme and to support students on site in Sherkin. The Minister for Education and Skills understands that this model has been effective in delivering a model of outreach education that is valued by both students, the academic teaching staff and the community. The Department does not have a role in the funding of the Sherkin Island Development Society. However, the Minister understands that a meeting was held on 12 February between DIT and the funding partners for the Sherkin Island Development Society programme, namely, the Department of Culture, Heritage and Gaeltacht and Cork County Council. The Department has been informed that one of the items discussed at this meeting was the future support available to continue the visual art BA programme that is delivered by DIT.

Officials from the Department of Education and Skills understand that both DIT and the Sherkin Island development society are awaiting formal communication from the funding partners about the outcome of this meeting. DIT has reiterated its continued commitment to the visual arts programme and its desire to continue the outreach programme in partnership with the Sherkin Island Development Society. However, this is contingent on the Sherkin Island development society being able to continue its support for the programme. To provide the necessary reassurance for students while discussions about the future of the programme have been ongoing, DIT has provided a commitment to the cohort of students currently on the programme that they will be able to complete the programme on graduation. The commitment is provided under DIT's policy for protection of enrolled learners.

DIT is willing to continue to deliver the programme in partnership with the Sherkin Island Development Society but, ultimately, funding for the Sherkin Island Development Society is not a matter for the Department of Education and Skills. The Minister, Deputy Halligan, thanks the Deputy for affording me the opportunity to respond to the House on his behalf.

Deputy Michael Collins

The Minister of State said this was not the responsibility of the Department of Education and Skills. I wish the Minister with responsibility for this issue was here to answer questions because we need answers to them. This programme needs an annual input of €60,000 each year to deliver the BA. For €60,000 in investment, funders receive a programme valued at approximately €415,000. As a direct result of this programme, an economic spin-off to the value of €150,000 is generated. The €60,000 investment funds one full-time and three part-time jobs located on Sherkin. The in-kind voluntary contribution by the Sherkin Island community has been valued at €40,000, with the Dublin Institute of Technology contributing an estimated €311,000 to the programme delivery. The financial management group has estimated that the BA course in visual arts, as part of the island of the arts, generates in the region of €150,000 for Sherkin Island per annum. DIT proposes to undertake social and economic benchmarking of the impact of the provision of the course on Sherkin Island.

The figures speak for themselves. I ask the Minister to meet the Minister of State at the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy McHugh, and to get everybody to sit around the table, including the local authority, the Minister, DIT and local public representatives who want this to continue. It is an invaluable course to the island and five people who did the course last year have continued to reside on the island. That is island life and it is what we have been fighting for over many years. The money is small in the scheme of things.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I ask for common sense in this debate. For the small amount of €10,000 and the massive payback we get in the locality, is it worth it or not? I do not care whether the €10,000 by which we are short is to be funded by Cork County Council, the Department of Education and Skills or elsewhere. It is a very small amount of money and it is common sense to provide it as the economic benefit is massive for the island and the surrounding areas. It will send out the wrong message if this course falls because of a shortage of €10,000. I ask the Minister with responsibility for the islands, the Minister for Education and Skills and other stakeholders to have a meeting as a matter of urgency to safeguard this extremely important course. When five people are living on an island who did not live there previously and they like the area, that is what we want.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I thank the Deputies for raising the issue and I fully understand their frustrations over a very small amount of money. The Department understands that DIT is willing to continue to deliver the programme in partnership with the Sherkin Island Development Society, but ultimately funding for the Sherkin Island Development Society is not a matter for the Department of Education and Skills. I hope both Deputies understand that. I call on Cork County Council to play a role in settling this issue. There is funding from the Department of Education and Skills through the Higher Education Authority which subsequently goes to the Dublin Institute of Technology, and DIT is willing to play its part, but there is an onus on Cork County Council and I call on it to look at the issue. It is very important for island life, especially on Sherkin Island, and when I heard the debate on "Morning Ireland" last week, I could not understand how it could not have been sorted out before it went onto national radio, or came before this Chamber for that matter. The Deputies are right that a common-sense approach is needed. It breathes life into the island and I ask Cork County Council to reconsider its decision.

National Parks

Deputy John Brassil

The proliferation of red deer in Killarney National Park is now at crisis level. The number stands in excess of 1,000 but, as they are protected, only Killarney National Park can deal with them. This leads to the question whether, if something happens such as a road traffic accident involving a red deer, Killarney National Park is to be held responsible. This crisis has numerous effects. First are road safety issues, and there are ecology issues for the national park. There are animal welfare issues for the deer and there are health issues, because the area is a Lyme disease hotspot. There are other types of deer, such as sika deer, and there is a risk of the hybridisation of the herd, which nobody wants. A deer management plan is needed for this. It has been called for on several occasions and it has not been delivered. There have been a couple of reports but reports are just reports. If there is no plan or an implementation plan behind it, it will be impossible to get to grips with this very serious issue.

Killarney National Park is severely under-resourced and it is struggling with a huge rhododendron crisis. I wonder if the park has the ability to deal with this issue, even if it had a plan in place and was directed to deal with it. Will the Minister consider transferring responsibility for this issue to the Office of Public Works until it is under control? This seems to be the only logical solution. The Minister could also look at recruiting responsible, trained and licensed hunters in the vicinity to deal with the crisis until it is under control.

On the verge of the national park, in places like Tomies and Beaufort, farmers and landowners are at breaking point over this issue. One farmer has up to 20 red deer grazing his land daily. Can the Minister imagine the effect that is having on fodder control for his own animals? The deer leave droppings and these become part of the silage, rendering it useless.

In summary, if we do not have a plan, we have no ability to deal with the issue so can the Minister ensure that a plan is put in place? Could she look at transferring responsibility for Killarney National Park to the Office of Public Works and look at the possibility of recruiting trained hunters to deal with the immediate crisis? Could she use her good offices to ensure that instead of having reports and possible actions, we have real action before the crisis escalates beyond an already critical point?

Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Josepha Madigan)

I thank Deputy Brassil for raising this important topic. Each year, as part of the ongoing management of deer populations within Killarney National Park, deer numbers may need reduction for the reasons outlined by the Deputy. There is a significant challenge in attempting to balance the demands of agriculture, forestry and conservation with the need to ensure that deer populations occupying the same land resources are managed at sustainable levels and in a responsible and ethical manner.

Ultimately, however, where deer species are increasing in range and numbers and depending on the annual count and instances of damage caused by deer to habitats, especially woodland, culls need to be carried out to ensure that deer populations do not reach levels that would have negative ecological consequences. Deer have the potential to impact significantly on woodlands, including the iconic yew, oak and also wet woodlands, within the park by, for example, bark stripping of mature trees and preventing regeneration. Accordingly, and as part of its regular ongoing management operations, the Department carries out localised annual deer counts on State lands when appropriate. The Department commissioned a comprehensive survey and report in the winter of 2016 on the distribution, population density and population structure of red deer and sika deer in Killarney National Park. The study found that the total estimated red deer density over the entire study area of 13.64 sq. km was some 708 deer. I am not sure if Deputy Brassil was including sika deer within his own statistics. The number of sika deer is approximately 200 so the number is almost 2,000, as the Deputy mentioned earlier.

On foot of this comprehensive survey and report in the winter of 2016 and following a further census of areas of the park conducted in spring 2017, my Department commenced a cull of deer last month. It is hoped to conclude the cull by the end of March. This work will be undertaken by qualified and competent National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, personnel of my Department. The proposed cull is at a similar level to that which was undertaken in previous years. I can give the Deputy the statistics afterwards but approximately 45 deer were culled last year while 55 were culled the year before. To date, 13 deer have been culled this year. The following points should be noted with regard to the cull. The proposed course of action has been decided upon following consultation with NPWS professional staff, including scientific input as required. Shooting of deer in the park will be carried out only by NPWS professional staff members who are fully trained, competent, expert and licensed in the use of firearms. Deer will be culled within the boundaries of Killarney National Park. The selection of deer to be shot will be in accordance with normal deer management protocols. The deer will be shot humanely by qualified expert marksmen. The remains will be processed and disposed of in full compliance with the applicable Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine guidelines and with the involvement, as appropriate, of Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine officials. As part of the ongoing proactive management of the habitats and species in Killarney National Park, it is proposed to conduct a Killarney National Park deer census in 2018. This work will be undertaken by external specialists. It is hoped to initiate this process shortly.

As the Deputy mentioned, wild deer are protected under the Wildlife Acts and roam freely throughout the countryside. They are the only remaining native large mammal in Ireland. They are also a huge attraction for tourists, particularly during the mating season in autumn which is known as the rut. However, I accept what the Deputy is saying regarding road traffic issues. With regard to the licensing, which the Deputy raised during his opening remarks, a licence can be applied for under the Wildlife Acts outside the normal open season but there must be evidence of damage to private property.

Deputy John Brassil

A person can apply for a licence but, unfortunately, the experience to date has been that if somebody applies for a licence and is experiencing a large number of red deer, for example, 15 or 20 deer, on their lands continually, they will get the licence to cull possibly two or three deer, which does not deal with the problem. Perhaps the Minister could look into that. This is not a very nice issue to have to raise because the culling of any beautiful wild animal is not something I would call for here without very good reason. In her reply, the Minister said that the work has started. I have no knowledge of this but, obviously, I will take the Minister's sources at their word. I would also caution that this is the time of year when deer are in foal - I am not sure whether that is the correct term to use for a deer carrying its young. It would not be the most appropriate time for such activity. To my knowledge, September is the time when this work should be carried out. I revert to my original question and point. In my opinion, if we do not have an actual plan that states the number of deer that the park can successfully manage and deal with, we will not know what our target is and the number to which we should be getting. Perhaps we should look at reducing the numbers over a five-year period to an acceptable level that reduces the risk of traffic accidents, ecological and animal welfare issues and any potential hybridisation. It is not a topic that will probably read very well or make for good listening for anybody watching but at the same time, it is very important. If it is not dealt with, it will just escalate into an even greater crisis. I welcome the fact that the Minister's sources tell her that the work has started but I would question it because, to my knowledge, there is no evidence of it on the ground.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

As the Deputy noted, this is an emotive topic and there is a balance to be struck, as I said earlier, between agriculture, forestry and conservation when we talk about deer, which are of significance in terms of conservation. However, I accept what the Deputy is saying regarding possible road traffic issues. My understanding is that it is more an issue during the rut period, which is during the autumn. It should be noted as well that we do not cull pregnant deer. Given that the deer are wild, they are often difficult to find but, obviously, if a sick deer is found in an opportunistic way, they would have to be culled. I understand that only a handful of sika deer have been culled over the past number of years whereas 18 red deer have already been culled. It is important that we try to manage this. The council has responsibility as well with regard to putting up proper signage to ensure that motorists are more vigilant when they drive through the areas. I mentioned that to obtain a licence, there needs to be evidence of damage. People who want a licence to cull deer must apply for it because it is important that we preserve the deer in Killarney National Park for the reasons I outlined earlier.