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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 2018

Vol. 970 No. 8

Bail (Amendment) Bill 2017: Second Stage [Private Members]

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I will be sharing time with Deputies Lawless, Michael Moynihan and Breathnach.

I will outline the context for saying we need to strengthen our bail laws. We can only understand the need for strengthening our bail laws by looking at recorded crime statistics. It is appropriate that this debate commences on the day when the Central Statistics Office published its statistics for recorded crime in the first quarter of 2018. The recorded crime statistics published by the CSO today indicate an increase of 15.9% in the number of fraud, deception and related offences in the year to the end of quarter 1 in 2018, compared with the same period to the end of quarter 1 in 2017. Similarly in respect of robbery and extortion, there was an increase of 15.9%.

The recorded crime incidents, classified by offence group and annualised to the end of quarter 1 of 2017 and 2018, show an increase of 388 incidents in the area of sexual offences or 14.7%, which is particularly worrying. The detailed statistics in quarter 1 of 2018 in respect of sexual offences show 181 rape offences for the first quarter of this year. The CSO statistics for the fourth quarter of 2017 showed a significant increase between quarter 4 of 2016 and quarter 4 of 2017. The last time the statistics were published they showed a 28% increase in the number of rapes recorded at that particular time.

I refer to those statistics because it is important to recognise that the debate on bail does not take place in any abstract context. We know the rate of crime carried out by individuals on bail has been growing steadily in recent years. It rose from 9% of all crimes in 2011 to 13% of crimes in 2016.

In the latter year, almost 26,000 crimes, including 6,214 thefts and 1,377 burglaries, were committed by individuals who had been released from custody while awaiting trial for separate offences. In 2016, individuals on bail were also charged with 24 rapes and sexual assaults. These are significant statistics and they show that serious crime is rising in certain areas. I refer, in particular, to sexual offences, burglaries and aggravated burglaries. As a result of a statistical analysis, we are also aware that many of those crimes were committed by individuals who were out on bail. The purpose of the legislation is to try to strengthen our laws in respect of bail so that it will be more difficult for individuals who have already been convicted of serious criminal offences to be granted bail for subsequent criminal offences for which they are charged. The Bill seeks to change, from a discretionary requirement to a mandatory requirement, the obligation on a court to refuse bail where it is satisfied that such a refusal is reasonably considered necessary to prevent the commission of serious offences by the person involved. That is an appropriate response.

When one looks at the next section, one will see that the court still has limited discretion in this area. If one is convicted of a serious criminal offence and subsequently charged in respect of another serious criminal offence, the presumption should be that one will not be granted bail. Alternatively, we should seek to avail of the provisions that were introduced into the Criminal Justice Act 2007. Sometimes it is forgotten that the Oireachtas, by means of section 11 of that Act, introduced electronic monitoring of certain persons granted bail. The section has not been commenced yet. I do not know the reason for that. We need to do something to change this to strengthen the laws to provide greater protection to people who are victims of crime.

I commend my colleague, Deputy O'Callaghan, on bringing forward this much needed legislation. It is a source of great frustration to the public and to the victims of crime. There is pure astonishment at the number of perpetrators who are already bail for other offences and who have a string of previous convictions. Sometimes, to the knowledge of the Garda and the courts, they are awaiting charging or sentencing on many other offences yet they remain at large to continue to burgle, steal, pilfer and terrorise. Not only is it a source of great frustration and alarm to the public but also to those charged with the security of the State, maintaining public order and defending the public from such crimes, namely the Garda Síochána. Assistant Commissioner John O'Driscoll recently outlined the difficulties when the gardaí were implementing Operation Thor. I commend the force on the latter operation, which involved some great successes. Some of those targeted had a string of offences to their names and many were on bail. Many were repeat offenders and some were quite prolific. Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll observed at a press conference that the sentences being imposed for such crimes, particularly burglaries, are inadequate deterrents to repeat offending and are being shrugged off in many cases. Many of those involved are committing more burglaries before being sentenced for their original crimes. This highlights the serious concern this is causing for the upper echelons of the Garda as well as for the public.

At a technical level, the Bill seeks to replace the word "may" with "shall" in terms of the sentencing guidelines in section 2(a) of the Act. Judicial discretion does not always work. We know that sometimes if a court may do something it often does not do it. We need look no further than section 15A of the Misuse of Drugs Act for a comparison. The latter was an attempt to introduce mandatory minimum sentencing for serious offences relating to drugs and the intent to supply. There was provision made for a ten-year minimum sentence for repeat offenders in that regard. It includes a get-out-of-jail clause which states that, in exceptional circumstances, a person could avoid minimum sentencing. Unfortunately, it has been the experience of the courts that almost every offender has been construed as having exceptional circumstances. Those exceptional circumstances have become the norm.

I cite this as an example of where legislation with good intent behind it has been circumvented and where there have been inconsistencies in the judicial approach. Having said that, I commend the recent decision of the Court of Appeal. The court considered a number of burglaries and the difficulties in the consistency of sentencing and tried to impose a reference sentence in a recent judgment, which was reported in The Irish Times and elsewhere. Tom O'Malley, the legal academic, talked about the matter at length. He commended the judges involved on stating that somebody needs to take the bull by the horns and apply some kind of reference sentencing in order to encourage the courts to be tougher in these kinds of situations and have a criterion and yardstick at hand they can use to apply sentencing.

In a more general sense, there has been a total breakdown of law and order in many rural areas. As both a State and a society, we are still reeling from the widespread closure of Garda stations in 2012 and 2013. In my constituency of Kildare North, five stations were closed along the west Wicklow-north Kildare border, including at Ballymore Eustace, Kill, Hollywood and Dunlavin, leaving that swathe of territory completely exposed to criminality. Those areas continue to be targeted. The stations covered a very large area. Not only was there a Garda presence there but there was a local garda in each station who knew the area, had local intelligence, knew the people, the activity and the rhythms of the area and could keep an eye when things went awry.

I attended a meeting in Broadford, north-west Kildare, at the other end of the constituency, last week and we heard tales of machinery being pilfered and agricultural equipment and farm machinery being taken at will. Often the local gardaí and community are well aware who the perpetrators are. One individual had over 100 previous offences. That continues to occur. That particular area is served by Leixlip Garda station which is an hour's drive away. Gardaí in Enfield and Edenderry are only moments away but cannot respond because of the jurisdictional splits. This is a situation I hope the Minister and Garda management can investigate.

I compliment Deputy O'Callaghan on introducing the legislation. The legislation is worthwhile and it mirrors a growing concern among the general public about crimes committed by people who are on bail. The criminal justice system has to be overhauled several times. It is a work in progress because there are people who are trying to outsmart it and outdo it in every way.

I heard on the radio yesterday that it is 22 years since Veronica Guerin as killed. Crime has destroyed communities and families. We reflect on the speed with which legislation changes but the legislation before us will be important as we go forward. The reality is that a huge number of crimes are being perpetrated by people who are out on bail. We need to enact this legislation fairly rapidly. It is needed in order to ensure that people in their own homes and businesses are free from fear of a raft of crimes right across the spectrum. We associate burglaries with late evening and the end of the year but there have been a number of them in the past week. Burglaries were attempted between Boherbue and Newmarket on a fine summer's day. All of that leads to a huge fear among families and elderly people who are living on their own. When they read about individuals who are out on bail committing crimes and see that 1,200 serial offenders have committed burglaries while out on bail, it feeds into the impression that there is nobody in charge and that the Garda does not have the powers or legislative resources to deal with these issues. This is where we have to come from. We have to ensure that, in so far as possible, every deterrent is put in place to ensure crime is not profitable.

That is what Deputy O'Callaghan is doing in this Bill.

Gardaí are working flat out. In some instances it must be very frustrating for members of An Garda Síochána to know who is committing these crimes. Burglaries alone instil great fear in all communities, rural and urban. The latest development is bicycles stolen from garden sheds all over Dublin. Many communities in rural Ireland have set up their own community alert or community watch. They have all put up cameras. The old open door policy in rural Ireland had to cease because of the fear communities live in.

The opening hours of the Garda station in Kanturk have been curtailed and services moved to the central barracks in Mallow. There has always been a 24-hour Garda presence in the capital of the Duhallow region, which is Kanturk. That needs to be considered because there are sprawling rural communities in the area. The farming community has been prone to many robberies of equipment and so forth. We have to have a serious conversation about where this equipment ends up when it is sold. We must ensure that it has no sell-on value. I compliment Deputy O'Callaghan on the Bill and ask the Government to make sure it goes through as soon as possible.

I compliment Deputy O'Callaghan on bringing the Bill forward. It is time for this House nailed bail with jail for repeat offenders. The majority of decent people, law-abiding citizens want the punishment fit the crime. Regardless of the CSO figures released today suggesting that homicide figures were down from 87 to 72 to the end of March, most crime figures are on the rise.

Last evening, I attended a local policing forum meeting in my county where it was outlined that most categories of crime are up this year when compared to the same period of 2017. Serious crimes, including theft and threats to kill, are up on last year's figures. Last week during Questions on Promised Legislation, I referred to the programme for Government in the context of the brutal murder of Cameron Reilly which has left the community of Dunleer and my constituency in shock, as did the murder earlier this year of Yosuke Sasaki in Dundalk. These, coupled with the murder of Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe and Garda Tony Golden, are examples of the need for action on the perpetrators of crime particularly their use of lethal weapons such as guns knives and not to mention brute force which are all part of every day crime perpetrated on our citizens. Our bail laws are ineffective when perpetrators of violent crime repeatedly appear before the courts and are allowed out on bail to reoffend. There are no deterrents to discourage such criminal activity. We need a system where the punishment matches the crime. We need to get tough on those appearing in court on additional charges, repeat offenders, so that bail will not be considered for such individuals and a deterrent is clearly there to halt these activities.

In the period between the two shocking murders I mentioned, two individuals previously charged with murder in the Dundalk area were out walking the streets on bail, one accused of the murder of a taxi driver, Martin Mulligan, the other accused of the murder of Irene White. It is my strong belief and that of his family that in the case of Shane O'Farrell had the bail laws not been as relaxed as they are he would be alive today.

For less serious offences such as burglaries and theft, it is common knowledge - and I have been told on more than one occasion by members of An Garda Síochána - in my area that the incidence of many crimes would reduce by up to 60% once certain known criminals who specialise in one or more of these criminal activities were under lock and key. Surely the fact that they would not qualify for bail, being repeat offenders would go some way to reducing the crime figures.

In the past ten years more than 250,000 crimes were committed by those out on bail. Currently, the perpetrators of serious crime are apprehended by the Garda, charged and then released while a file is being sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP. A file could be with the DPP for months. In the meantime, the people in question are reoffending. There has to be a system where those charged with violent crimes are held on remand while the DPP considers the files. If this means provision of more prison spaces, then bring it on. Before entering this Dáil many of us heard talk of zero tolerance, crackdown and a war on crime. We owe it to our constituents and our communities to take this issue seriously and deal with it. It is incumbent on us to get back to a position where some degree of law and order is restored and gardaí feel more confident in dealing with these issues and do not think they are wasting their time trying to bring these cases to court.

I thank Deputy O'Callaghan for his work on this Bill. I agree with much of what he said. The number of offences committed by persons on bail is deeply disturbing. A crime committed by someone on bail is particularly troubling as there is an inevitable sense that it could have been prevented. I assure the Deputy and the House that the Government is committed to tackling this issue.

When we talk about bail we must remember that an accused person enjoys a presumption of innocence in relation to the charge on which he or she is applying for bail. This has been frequently emphasised by the Supreme Court and the European Court of Human Rights. The fact that an accused has previous convictions may be a factor which the court can take into account but the accused cannot be doubly punished for those convictions.

The Deputy will be aware of the constitutional limits to refusal of bail and I have no doubt that he will have crafted his proposals with this in mind. I am advised, however, that the proposals in this Bill are inconsistent with the Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights, ECHR.

The decision on whether to grant bail is a judicial issue rather than an executive power. In introducing the Bill last December, Deputy O'Callaghan rightly asserted that his proposals do not remove consideration of the issue of bail from the court. However, the provisions in section 2(a) oblige the court to refuse bail if it "is satisfied that such refusal is reasonably considered necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by that person". This precludes the court from considering other factors which have traditionally been deemed to be relevant in bail applications such as the time to trial or the personal circumstances of the accused, including serious illness or disability.

It will be no surprise to the Deputy to note that the Supreme Court has previously stated that precluding the court from considering such factors would not be consistent with the right to personal liberty acknowledged in Article 40 of the Constitution or with Articles 5 and 6(1) of the ECHR. Section 2(b) contains a similar provision targeted specifically at persons accused of burglary of a dwelling. As section 2(a) covers all offences, including burglary, I am not sure that this subsection provides anything additional. In any event, the same constitutional issues arise in respect of this subsection as arise in respect of subsection 2(a).

In short, I do not believe this is constitutionally sound.

Section 2(c) of the Bill lowers the threshold for what may be considered evidence that the person is likely to commit another burglary of a dwelling. The threshold is reduced from three prior convictions or pending charges, to just one prior conviction for a burglary of a dwelling. There is a strong likelihood that this lower threshold would not meet the constitutional or ECHR requirement for proportionality. ECHR case law is clear that the risk of re-offending can only justify pre-trial detention if there is actual evidence of definite risk of re-offending available and the mere fact of having committed an offence is not sufficient reason for ordering pre-trial detention. It is difficult to see, therefore, how a provision requiring the court to accept a single prior offence as evidence of future offending could be acceptable in light of ECHR case law.

Section 3 of the Bill would require a court to impose electronic monitoring on any accused person admitted to bail in respect of a charge of burglary of a dwelling who also has one prior conviction for a burglary of a dwelling. I also have concerns as to the constitutionality of this provision. In balancing the accused’s right to liberty with the rights of the public, the court is obliged to impose conditions that impinge on the accused person’s rights as little as possible in order to achieve the desired aim. If the imposition of electronic monitoring is mandatory, then the court would be precluded from considering alternatives that may achieve the desired outcome in a less restrictive manner. It is likely that this provision would breach the test of proportionality in individual cases.

I have other concerns in respect of the electronic monitoring proposals. The Government’s view is that electronic monitoring has a valuable role to play in monitoring bail conditions but it must be targeted at those cases where it is most likely to be effective. The mandatory use of electronic monitoring, as proposed by section 3 of this Bill, would reverse the approach taken in the Criminal Justice Act last year. It is also in breach of Council of Europe guidelines on the use of electronic monitoring. The provision also contains a number of technical flaws. It fails to provide for any of the safeguards and consequential provisions necessary to operate an electronic monitoring scheme. No provision is made for an authorised person to monitor the person’s movements, no provision is made for an application to vary or revoke an order, there is no requirement for the person’s consent and no restriction on applying the provision to children.

I do not intend to minimise the issue of offences committed on bail but I do need to state clearly that we already have a robust system of bail laws. Last year, the Government further strengthened that system with the introduction of the Criminal Justice Act 2017. That is important legislation which strengthens the powers of the courts and the Garda in dealing with persistent serious offenders and persons on bail who pose an ongoing threat to the public. The Act places a greater emphasis on the rights and the safety of victims and of the public in bail decisions while continuing to safeguard the rights of the accused. It provides increased guidance for the courts and greater transparency in the bail process.

The Act also provides that electronic monitoring may be imposed as a bail condition if the prosecution applies to the court for such a condition. Extensive preparations are underway to ensure these provisions can be implemented and, more importantly, to ensure they can be effective. The report of an inter-agency working group, established to examine these issues, has been submitted to the management board of my Department and is under consideration. The Criminal Justice Act 2017 was enacted just one year ago and is in force for only ten months. The impact of the new provisions is not yet reflected in annual crime statistics. It is too early, therefore, to assess whether or not these changes are having the desired effect. I am open to revisiting the bail laws if the changes introduced last year are shown to be insufficient but I do not wish to engage in change for the sake of the change. It is important to await the evidence and take the time to evaluate the effect of the Criminal Justice Act 2017 before we introduce further changes in the law.

I will not give the impression that we should do nothing to address the issue of offending on bail while we evaluate the recent legislative changes. On the contrary, there are many other ways in which the Government is targeting offending behaviour, which in turn impact on offences committed on bail. I want to highlight the area of burglaries, as this type of offending has a high recidivism rate and is a key concern for members of the public. Operation Thor is a concrete example of how the Government’s investment in Garda resources, including an overtime allocation of almost €100 million announced in Budget 2018, has impacted on crime. There were 43% fewer burglaries of homes reported in March 2018 compared to October 2017, following the implementation of the winter phase of Operation Thor. That involved the undertaking of targeted enforcement and preventative activity and was designed to prevent potential burglars from exploiting the reduced hours of daylight. A significant drop in burglary offences committed by persons on bail has also been reported since the launch of Operation Thor.

In addition, the Court of Appeal has recently published sentencing guidelines for burglary at the request of the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, who appealed several sentences arguing the matter of undue leniency. The lower courts now have a clear set of principles to follow when sentencing for burglary offences. While I acknowledge the independence of the courts, I believe this is an important development and will, over time, impact on the number of such offences committed by persons on bail. The Government’s difficulties with this Bill relate primarily to its constitutionality. I believe the main provisions of the Bill are inconsistent with the Constitution, but not only that, they are also inconsistent with the ECHR. As the constitutional difficulties relate to the essential aim of the provisions – obliging the court to refuse bail under certain conditions – it would not appear that any amendment, whether from me or any other Member of the House, could make the provisions of this Bill constitutional without undermining that aim.

The constitutional risks are particularly problematic because the Bill replaces the existing section 2 of the Bail Act 1997 with the new provision. Consequently, if the provisions were enacted and subsequently struck down by the courts as unconstitutional, the courts would have no power to refuse bail to prevent the commission of a serious offence. This would pose a significant risk to our State’s bail laws. I do not doubt the sincerity of Deputy O'Callaghan. I listened closely to the remarks of his colleagues on the Opposition benches. I am also concerned that our laws are robust and the we take every opportunity to assist the Garda in the fight against crime.

From my point of view, that is twofold. In respect of resources, this year we have already allocated an unprecedented sum in excess of €1.6 billion under the Garda Vote. Equally important is my role as a legislator assisting the State by ensuring we have robust legislation available to An Garda Síochána and everyone involved within the criminal justice system. Like all Deputies here, I am bound by the Constitution and the constitutional position regarding our bail laws. I am unable, therefore, to accept this Bill because I have serious doubts as to its constitutionality. I see Deputy O'Callaghan, a practitioner of some experience and expertise in this regard, amused at my disposition on this legislation. I invite him to take some time to examine the case law on this issue and, ultimately, to agree with me that his Bill, however well-intentioned, is constitutionally and legally unsound. For those reasons I am unable to accept this Bill and I will be opposing it.

Ask the people what they want.

It is right and proper, like other Deputies have said, that we reflect on the context. The crime statistics released this afternoon do not make for positive or encouraging reading. There are significant increases across a number of heads. The first three months of the year saw close to 19,000 burglaries and 70,000 thefts. Those are staggering figures. There was a 15.9% increase in fraud, deception and hijacking and a 14.7% increase in sexual offences - and over 3,000 of those were in the first three months of the year. I acknowledge that murder is one of the heads that has fallen. I recognise, particularly in respect of ongoing feuds and an extremely challenging environment, that An Garda Síochána is working hard to tackle that. While the environment remains difficult, some headway, I hope, is beginning to be made. Nonetheless, that figure remains far too high in a general sense.

I believe this is a resources issue. Despite what the Minister has said, many Garda stations and districts are still running to a standstill. Many Garda stations are only just at or below 2010 levels. That is certainly the case in the Cork city division, where some of those, such as Mayfield, are well below the 2010 levels. The figures tell us that Dublin has lost almost 100 gardaí since last year despite what the Minister said about increased numbers and resources. In real terms, Dublin has lost about 900 core unit gardaí since 2010. Assistant Commissioner Pat Leahy said that rock bottom had been hit in respect of policing numbers in Dublin.

The solution to this is to be found within policing. While the Minister is keen to flag the number of probationers etc., I am of the view that is where the focus must be. In rural areas, a farcical situation has arisen whereby almost 50% of front-line gardaí do not have adequate training and clearance to pursue cars at high speed. Those figures were provided by the Garda Representative Association, GRA; I do not believe the Minister has released the statistics. Clearly, the ability of gardaí to pursue criminals is severely constrained by that. The Minister is shaking his head. He is more than welcome to publish the figures, but until he does so I can only rely on the GRA statistics. If the Minister has the statistics, he can publish them and I will absolutely accept them. However, if it is the case that there is anything approaching the number of gardaí who cannot pursue criminals at high speed suggested by the GRA statistics, that is clearly a problem for the tackling of crime in rural areas and in large districts.

The Bill seeks to address conditions of bail and electronic tagging. We support some of the provisions in the Bill, have difficulties with others and would prefer to have the wording amended in others still. The legislation has some significant flaws, but I hope these can be remedied on Committee Stage. We will allow the Bill to go forward to Committee Stage so that these amendments can be tabled. However, we will seek to amend the Bill before it is enacted because it contains quite significant flaws. It is important that legislation of this kind is in compliance with international human rights and contains mechanisms based on evidence of what works, as opposed to gestures, and that is it constitutionally sound.

The Bill contains a number of provisions which will change the law as it relates to bail. Section 2(a) changes the wording of section 2(1) of the Bail Act 1997 to make it an imperative that the court shall refuse the application for bail if it is satisfied that such a refusal is considered necessary to prevent the commission of a serious crime by that person. The 1997 Act states, "Where an application for bail is made by a person charged with a serious offence, a court may refuse the application if the court is satisfied that such refusal is reasonably considered necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by that person." The explanatory memorandum states that this will make it "mandatory for a Court to refuse a bail application where such application is made by a person charged with a serious offence and where the Court is satisfied that such refusal is reasonably considered necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by that person." I presume it is intended that people listening to proceedings or reading the Official Report will pay more attention to the word "mandatory" than to the phrase "where the court is satisfied". Of course, it is still conditional and still at the discretion of the judge to be so satisfied. To provide otherwise would be an unreasonable fettering of judicial discretion. This is a matter of framing the decision - for it is still a decision for the judge to grant bail or not - as an imperative. The Minister has spoken about this matter. In previous debates, the point has been made that framing judicial decisions as imperatives has been considered constitutionally questionable. Indeed, Deputy O'Callaghan made that point to me when we were discussing sentencing guidelines on the radio on one occasion. I remain open-minded in this regard and will consider arguments as to what is the most appropriate wording. However, it is important that judicial discretion is preserved.

Section 2(b) concerns the strengthening of language in respect of judicial decisions about bail. This amends the section of the Bail Act 1997 inserted by the Criminal Justice (Burglary of Dwellings) Act 2015, which allows a court to consider the fact that a person who has committed relevant offences in the past in a dwelling as evidence that the person is likely to commit a relevant offence in a dwelling. Section 2 of the Bill extends this to say that circumstances in which relevant offences have been committed in a dwelling shall be considered evidence of likelihood to commit a relevant offence and shall lead to a judge refusing an application of bail if he or she is satisfied that such refusal is reasonably considered necessary to prevent the commission of a relevant offence by that person. Again, while this is framed in a way which suggests an imperative, the final decision remains with the judge and he or she has final jurisdiction. However, the same question of constitutionality applies here. If a judge feels that such a refusal is likely to be necessary to ensure that a crime will not be committed, it seems that he or she should properly refuse bail if she or he was properly convinced. However, this is phrased as an imperative and so it may be constitutionally hazardous. I retain an open mind and I will listen carefully to the rebuttal which I am sure Deputy O'Callaghan will give.

We recognise that the right to bail is not unlimited. It is not unreasonable for a court to have powers to make bail conditions such that bail can be withdrawn if these are broken or even to refuse bail to an accused who is a flight risk or who poses a demonstrable risk of interfering with witnesses or of committing an additional serious crime. There will also be cases where the nature of the crime is such - for example, extreme violence or violence against multiple victims - that the withholding of bail can be justified in the name of public safety. It is our view that the protection of the presumption of innocence should be at the core of our justice system and that there should be a presumption of bail. The general presumption in favour of bail is important. The European Convention on Human Rights states that pre-trial detention should only be used as a measure of last resort. There are rightly situations where this can be qualified or circumscribed, but I do not believe we should depart too far from that principle. Paragraphs (a) and (b) of section 2 may well do that.

Paragraphs (c) and (d) of section 2 relate to the conditions in which a judge may refuse bail. Of course, that hinges upon section 2(a) of this Bill to a considerable extent. Taken in isolation, we have no difficulty with the judge having the discretion to refuse bail in circumstances outside what is currently considered. This would allow for a situation whereby if a crime was previously committed in a dwelling, that it could be considered a circumstance in which bail could be refused. I have read the memorandum and I am not quite sure that it equates to what is contained within the legislation. The memorandum outlines that for which the Bill provides. Where a serious offence has been committed and a judge is satisfied that there is a likelihood of reoffending, in a dwelling or otherwise, it would be logical to refuse bail. To an extent, that is contingent on paragraphs (a) and (b). The Minister has said that it is difficult to see how a provision requiring the court to accept a single offence as evidence could be permissible. A different situation would pertain if we were looking at a provision that allows a court to accept a single offence as evidence of a risk of future offending. If the crime is of a serious nature, containing a certain level of violence, we should allow judges to take that into consideration and potentially to refuse bail. That may require that the first two subsections be changed so that they do not create an imperative to act.

Section 3 relates to electronic tagging. Making electronic tagging mandatory and removing the discretion of the judge is not an idea with which we agree. It undermines the discretion of the Judiciary, and pushes for a wide application of a policy when we are not yet sure of its effectiveness. Sinn Féin does not have an objection, in principle, to the use of such tagging. There are circumstances in which it may provide an alternative to custody which make sense, particularly in cases involving very serious crimes, such as sexual crimes, but we do have some concerns about operability and cost-effectiveness. There is a need for safeguards, and we do not agree with the blanket use of the measure as proposed in this Bill. There is an element of removing judicial discretion involved. We have had significant discussions in recent times about trusting the judgment of judges. This is a decision which is traditionally a discretionary power and it should remain so.

Moreover, tagging is only as good as whoever is monitoring it. Tagging will not tell one what someone is doing, merely where he or she is doing it or whether he or she is outside a particular area. Clearly the attendant staffing of that activity is crucial to ensuring it works even in the circumstances in which it is applied, and there need to be safeguards there.

Deputy Breathnach made a point about the case of Shane O'Farrell. I would argue that the failures in that case were not particularly to do with the approval or refusal of bail. They related to the failure to pursue breaches of Bail. That is quite a significant issue which was highlighted by the "RTÉ Investigates" programme before Christmas; bail breaches are not always pursued to the extent that they should be, where people are failing to report to a Garda station or where people have committed additional crimes or appeared before a court again. That is certainly an area where we have had a breakdown and we need to focus quite considerably on ensuring that bail is enforced and applied.

In the context of this debate, we need to be conscious of the impact on the prison population. Pre-trial detainees make up between 13% and 15% of the prison population in the State. Clearly there is a need for some defendants to be held on remand in order to ensure they stand trial, but it does not come cheap for the Exchequer. In 2014, the average cost of a staffed prison space was €68,959, or an average of €189 per prisoner per day. If there are, on average, 520 or so remand prisoners held on a day, it costs the State approximately €100,000 a day to hold prisoners on remand. Obviously that is necessary on occasion, but we do need to take consideration of that.

We also should take consideration of the fact that our prison population is quite substantial. My understanding is that as of yesterday, Limerick Prison was at 179% capacity in respect of female prisoners. The Dóchas Centre is at 129% capacity. There are approximately 4,000 prisoners in Irish prisons and the main remand prison already is more or less at capacity at 97%. Obviously if we increase the number of pre-trial detainees, that will push the numbers even higher and that increases pressure on staff, restricts access to existing offender behaviour programmes and leads to physical overcrowding. Finally, the Bill does not really address the need for bail supports, which I think represents a crucial issue in any discussion of pre-trial detention.

We will not oppose the Bill proceeding to Second Stage. As I have outlined, there are some provisions we can live with, some we would not and some we seek to amend. In summing up, however, I believe the solutions to the problems described by numerous Fianna Fáil Deputies - real problems of increased crime figures which I myself have outlined and dwelt upon - ultimately involve policing. We must ensure that members of the Garda are in a position to respond quickly and are visible, as the visibility of police offers a far more effective form of discouragement than what is proposed here.

In the first instance, I note that the Labour Party will support the Bill's passage to Second Stage. However, we have some serious reservations about some of the conditions or content of the Bill and have several questions.

I refer to the issue of electronic tagging. While I need some further clarification, from my reading of the legislation this is the third attempt to legislate for electronic tagging. This legislation seeks to do something which is already on the Statute Books and one wonders about the efficacy of such an effort. I refer specifically to the administrative consolidation of the Bail Act 1997 as prepared by the Law Reform Commission. On page 14 of that consolidation, under the heading F22, it states amendments "Inserted by Criminal Justice Act 2007(29/2007), s. 11, not commenced as of date of revision". That is the first attempt. It then continues with F23, "Substituted (14.08.2017) by Criminal Justice Act 2017 (14/2017), s. 7, not commenced as of date of revision"

Now we have before us a third item of legislation, which seeks to legislate for electronic tagging. Tagging is already on the Statute Books but it has not yet commenced. That is an issue we should explore further on Committee Stage. I am happy to receive clarification if my points are misdirected but I am not entirely sure they are. As such, there are some reservations on that score.

I received a document today from the Irish Penal Reform Trust, IPRT, which tallies with the concerns of the Minister. Spokespersons such as Deputy Ó Laoghaire also outlined some of its contents or there is a coincidence between the points he makes and the contents of the IPRT submission. I will quote from that document because it sums it up for me with regard to section 2(a) and fettering discretion of the Judiciary. It states:

It is important to note that the Court already has the power to refuse an application for bail under the 1997 Act (as amended) where they are satisfied that such refusal is reasonably necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence. In response to concerns over a perceived increase in offending by people while on bail, Article 40.4.6, the Sixteenth Amendment of the Constitution, was inserted in 1996 as a result of a referendum. Section 2(1) of the Bail Act, 1997 gave effect to this amendment, providing that:

"Where an application for bail is made by a person charged with a serious offence, a court may refuse the application if the court is satisfied that such refusal is reasonably considered necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by that person."

The issue of recidivism is a great worry to all of us in this House, regardless of our political hue and beliefs. None of us can stomach the fact that there are those who commit crimes while out on bail. Recently in this House, we had passage of a Stage of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2017, which is now before the Seanad. We have had some external commentary on the efficacy of that Bill. In dealing with issues around offences committed, I am genuinely concerned that Members are legislating in a way that could put us offside with the Constitution. We are attempting to deal with the issues that are societal or are due to a lack of resources in policing and so on. The solution to all of those problems is not in the making of law which could subsequently be overturned if it is tested, or if it is challenged at a future date. We have to proceed-----

There is aprize piece in front of the Deputy and he is supporting it.

Could the Minister repeat that?

There is prize legislation in front of the Deputy that is constitutionally unsound and he is going to support it.

No. If the Minister was listening to what I said, he would know I indicated we would support the passage of this Bill to Committee Stage in order that the questions we have on some of the flaws we perceive in it can be addressed. That is the point I am making. I think notwithstanding-----

That is a cop-out.

Notwithstanding the points that I am making about the passing of legislation in this House - the Minister I am sure will be embarrassed by the fact that his Government is standing over the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2017, which is a joke and a legislative farce - I still believe that because we are in a democracy, we in this House have the right to give a hearing to Deputy O'Callaghan and his party in respect of legislation that comes before us.

We are fully entitled to allow the Bill to proceed to another Stage even though we might have reservations about it. That is the fundamental point I am making.

I refer again to the submission of the IPRT. I have made the point on electronic tagging about which we have questions. I support the Minister's point on the Bill's constitutionality. This is supported in the submission by the IPRT. We have to be cautious about how we legislate for these matters in this House. I stood before the Ceann Comhairle to support the O'Farrell family. There was a litany of abuses and failures of the system in that case, but that should not mean we should legislate in haste and repent thereafter if there is a risk the legislation might be overturned. That serves nobody and it does not do anybody any good in dealing with the issues at hand.

I have a question about the explanatory memorandum, which I hope Deputy Jim O’Callaghan can address, and the statement that 13% of all crimes being committed by people out on bail. In how many cases was bail opposed? If we are going to interrogate the metrics we need to know in how many of the 13% of crimes, bail was opposed.

I have no qualms about supporting the passing of this legislation to the next Stage, but there is a lot of work to be done on Committee Stage. There is an issue as to whether the Bill is constitutional, and on Committee Stage we will soon find out whether that is the case. There are more than 200 Private Members' Bills, as I understand it, and we as individual Members have to check the Executive authority of the House. For too long the Executive ruled the roost and it is no harm the balance has shifted back towards the ordinary Members of the House.

I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the debate, although it is not a debate to which I wanted to contribute because the Bill plays to the crowd and looks for the simplest form of kudos it can. I was not going to speak on it because I did not feel it was worthwhile. Having examined the submission of the IPRT, and examined the Bill itself I felt it was important to speak on it and register my objection to and complaints about it.

The Bill is an attempt at raising the flag of populism to make it look as though we are being strong and doing something on bail and criminality but it will not do anything except probably make the situation a lot worse if it is enacted. Our neighbours next door said they were tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime, and that was their mantra. It is also the mantra that could be used about the Bill. It is too simple to think if we stop bail, we will solve the problems with criminality throughout the State. I do not believe it would do so. The IPRT outlined the improvements it could make to the bail system. If we implemented them, that would have a greater impact on people who are on bail for crimes and criminal offences and on recidivism, which is important.

Most of the people in our criminal justice system are addicts or unemployed or in need of support from the State rather than in need of being made criminals. Putting people in jail while they are waiting for their court case to come up will increase the crime levels because there is no better place to learn how to become a good criminal than jail. If we are serious about preventing crime, we should put in place the supports outlined in the submission from the IPRT because then we could do something to prevent crime being committed by people on bail. However, that is too difficult. It is not simple and it would be very hard to justify to the public that we were introducing a system to make bail more humane and make it work for people to reduce crime in the State. The cost has been outlined clearly. The cost of jailing people will increase significantly and will place more demands on the criminal justice system, which will move more money away from preventing recidivism, but at least they will all be in jail anyway so that will be good. In 2017, the average cost of a staffed prison place in the State was €68,000 per year or €188 per day. We are stating we should increase this amount and ensure more money will be spent on it. That €188 per day would probably ensure that 40 or 50 people would not commit a crime again if we invested it where it would be far more useful than jailing people for offences.

A previous speaker spoke about people being in jail for offences. Much has been made about how the figures have been manipulated in terms of the CSO. It will not quote Garda figures for murders now because it cannot stand over them. How many of the figures relating to people who commit offences are genuine? If somebody is arrested for a particular offence, the garda will put it to him that ten or 20 other offences of a similar type took place and that if he admits to all those offences his court date will go a lot easier. People admit to committing crimes that they might not have had anything to do with. That improves the solved crime rate and it looks good in the reports that go to the Government and are published every year. The crimes included in these great figures might not have been solved at all.

The Bill should put in place more proactive supports and ways to make bail effective in order that people can do more than just sit around waiting for their trial to take place. We also have to question why it takes so long for trials to take place. Perhaps this is something else we address to make the bail regime more effective.

There always will be cases where people on bail commit crimes. That is wrong but this is a knee-jerk way of resolving those cases. There have to be other ways of doing so and we should ensure they are followed rather than putting forward defective laws such as this. The Bill might have the right to go to Committee Stage and be sorted out there, but it would be more worthwhile to use that time for Bills that have had their constitutionality checked and that Members can stand over before Second Stage is taken. I will be opposing the Bill.

I welcome the opportunity to speak to the Bill. We need to examine the overcrowding in our prisons. Figures from yesterday indicate that five of our 12 prisons are over capacity. Currently, all Irish prisons hold close to 4,000 prisoners and our main remand prison in Cloverhill is now at 97% capacity. This is an urgent matter. We have a growing population and yet our prisons are nearly at full capacity. We need to look at solutions to the problem as burying our heads in the sand is not good enough. We must re-examine the sending of women to prison for small-time crime. This is done in the UK. When women committed petty crimes in that country in the past, they were being sentenced to prison but now there are alternatives, including training, before getting the women into the world again. These people will have learned the error of their ways after small crimes.

We must consider how to protect people in rural Ireland, especially those living in isolated areas. I come from a rural area in west Cork and I know only too well the fear about crime in our communities, particularly among isolated people who live alone. They may be elderly and vulnerable. Where bail has been granted, electronic monitoring should be a mandatory condition. I understand electronic monitoring cannot, in itself, prevent a person from committing a crime, it is certainly a deterrent. We must do everything we can to make the people living in rural Ireland feel safe again.

I have stood here many times in this House highlighting the Government's failure to rural-proof its actions. There have been prolonged closures of rural Garda stations around the country, which is without doubt the biggest contributing factor to rural crime. There are three coastal Garda stations in my constituency, among many others, that have faced closure. These are Goleen, Adrigole and Ballinspittle. The people of Ballinspittle are working very hard as a community to get their Garda station reopened. The Minister for Justice and Equality was here earlier and I hope he will be back in a moment to clarify the position in this regard. I see from media reports that he visited the Stepaside Garda station. It is one of six Garda stations that are to reopen. If he visited the Stepaside Garda station on Monday, surely he will visit Ballinspittle and the other four that remain closed? They are very important to their communities. If these stations are reopened, it might at least help to discourage those who are committing crimes and allay people's fears.

I am happy to speak to the Bill and I thank Deputy O'Callaghan for bringing it forward. One of the main provisions of the Bill is that in considering bail, a court shall refuse application if the court is satisfied that such a refusal is reasonably considered necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by that person. Two weeks ago, we debated the setting up of a commission of inquiry into the tragic slaughter of Mr. Shane O'Farrell. We can consider the number of times the gentleman responsible for that crime was on bail. Surely he was a threat, particularly as he was wanted in Northern Ireland. This is not as good as it looks.

It will come as a major shock to people to hear that this is not already part of existing legislation for bail. We are way behind the curve in trying to deal with bail laws. There is a laxity in the law and there is a real need to pursue Private Members' options like that which we are debating this evening. There is a clear need to reform spending on legal aid in bail laws. The spending is phenomenal. There is an absence of any mention of the widespread abuse of legal aid in our bail laws, which is incomprehensible. There is an open door or cheque book, which is simply unacceptable.

Section 2 of the 2016 bail legislation referred to the number and frequency of any previous convictions of the accused person for serious offending and it stopped short of linking this to legal aid but it must be linked. Parliamentary questions I have submitted to the Minister for Justice and Equality reveal that total expenditure for criminal legal aid for 2011 to 2015 amounted to €252.2 million, which is a staggering amount. The figure does not include a further €162.3 million spent on civil legal aid. In light of this level of funding, the Department and Minister must conduct an analysis of the link between abuse of legal aid and the application of bail laws. They are interlinked. Access to legal aid, especially in cases where bail is persistently violated, must be reviewed and taken into account the next time a person applies for bail. It is not fun and games we are having.

Section 3 of the Bill refers to electronically monitoring a person's movements while on bail so it can be established if he or she commits an offence while on bail. This is a no-brainer because there is an issue here. The Minister has informed me that provision has already been made in this regard. Has it been implemented, however? I want him to clarify that and, in particular, how many times the provision has been used. The Minister is aware that I raised this matter with his predecessor, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, when I sought to clarify why it had taken ten years to enforce a provision of the Criminal Justice Act sanctioning the use of electronic tagging. It is too long. The former Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, and the current Minister, Deputy Flanagan, must step up to the plate and sort out this tagging straight away.

Deputy Mattie McGrath has taken all the time. We should do what is wanted by the people out the country being affected by thieves, blackguards and criminals. When dealing with serial offenders, we should give them no bail or legal aid. The first day they are caught they should go before a judge and be jailed right away. Waste no more time or money with them as that is the way they should be dealt with. This applies especially to those people convicted before courts for other crimes. They should not be treated the same as the poor person with a single misdemeanour who is entitled to bail or free legal aid. In cases of serial offenders, like in America, the day after being caught they should be brought before the judge and jailed right away. They should get no other chance as that is what they deserve. They do not appreciate what is right and wrong and they should be made to understand it.

Garda stations have been closed in rural Ireland and I call on the Minister to reopen them, particularly as they had a positive effect in the past. They were there since the foundation of the State. In good times and bad, we kept them open. The Government is boasting that the country has been turned around and things are flying again. If that is the case the Garda stations should be opened as the people in rural areas want them opened again. The Government will reopen Stepaside all right for the fellow who is giving that proposal support.

I thank Deputy O'Callaghan for bringing this very important matter to the floor of the Dáil. Without a doubt, this is the problem of bail and reoffenders on bail committing serious or minor crimes. If we want to squeeze crime, we must view it all as serious, whether it is a handbag being stolen or a more serious offence. Without a doubt, the current position is unacceptable and the people of Ireland are fed up of seeing a revolving door system. Individual cases must of course be looked at, which is why we have judges. It is wrong, however, that people are getting bail when they have committed serious crimes and getting the opportunity to create chaos again in society. I ask the Government to look at what is happening. It is about time the bail issue was overhauled with a view to being sympathetic and understanding of the victim of crime. There is enough mollycoddling of people who commit crimes but not half enough consideration taken of the poor people who are victims.

I will avail of my few minutes to support what my colleague has brought before the House this evening. It is very relevant, important and well thought out.

Moreover, it is something that the electorate and the people have been calling for now for some time, indeed, for some years. The fact that this Dáil is prepared to tackle the issue and to do so in the correct way will be welcomed by many. I hope the House will see its way to support this particular legislation.

The Bill is a serious attempt to address, once and for all, the situation of reoffenders. Members of the public are watching this and they see it. They will tell us of the recurring scenario whereby people who reoffend seem to get bail easily. That has to stop. We must have more respect for the victims of crime. Many people believe that the victim is twice a victim because the State does not deal with some of these reoffenders. A total of 26,000 crimes, including 6,214 thefts and 1,377 burglaries, were committed in 2016. It can be seen from these figures that in many of these cases a considerable percentage of the perpetrators reoffend. I imagine the figures for 2017 are not much better.

The Government cry will be that crime levels have fallen. I have raised the matter in the Dáil previously. A considerable number of people, especially in rural Ireland, will not report minor crimes any more. Only recently, a man who had some tools taken from his farmyard said he did not bother to report the incident. The point he made to me was that the offenders get out on bail time after time. I urge everyone to report every crime, no matter how small. It is important that victims report crimes. This victim made the point to me - many others have made the point to me as well – that a situation arises whereby these people continuously get bail.

I have long said that none of the Garda stations should ever have been closed. The amount of money that has been saved is so small. The fact that a village or town has a Garda station, even though it is not manned 24-7 or even eight or ten hours per day, is a help. The fact that gardaí are back and forth to the station and that there is a Garda sign in the town or village is something of a deterrent. There was a Garda station in my village of Termonbarry on the N5 national primary route. The River Shannon runs by it and the N5 is a major route. The Garda station was closed. It should never have been closed. Given that we are looking at all this legislation, I urge the Minister to reopen virtually all of the Garda stations that were closed.

We have a serious problem whereby people who are on bail reoffend. I compliment my colleague, Deputy O'Callaghan, on bringing this legislation forward and presenting us with an opportunity to address this problem. The Bill attempts to redress the balance between the victim and offenders for one specific type of crime, that is, domestic burglary. The aim of the Bill is to target prolific offenders by requiring the courts to refuse applications for bail. The Bill also refers to the use of electronic monitoring and so forth.

I listened to the contributions of previous speakers. Many raised concerns about the balance between the victim and the offender, as well as the presumption of innocence. It is worth recalling that one in eight of all crimes committed in 2017 was committed by someone who was out on bail for another offence. Therein lies the scale of the issue. Burying our heads in the sand and doing nothing are simply not options. I was pleased to hear the contributions of the Sinn Féin Deputies. They said they had issues with some aspects of the Bill but they are prepared to allow it to advance so that those issues could be addressed appropriately on Committee Stage. I welcome that move. It is the correct way of dealing with legislation. The detail can be dealt with adequately.

The Irish Penal Reform Trust was mentioned numerous times. We have all received information from the trust. It has specifically stated that if we introduce this measure, it will place further pressure on an already overcrowded prison system and give rise to significant cost implications. The trust goes on to say that yesterday, 26 June, a total of five out of 12 Irish prisons were operating over capacity. That is no excuse for not doing the right thing by having the right legislation. If resources or more prison spaces are needed, then so be it. No one would realistically suggest that we have insufficient prison space for a person who committed a serious crime or was convicted of murder. That is a ludicrous argument to put forward. The corollary of five out of 12 prisons being overcrowded is that the other seven are not overcrowded. My understanding is that in recent times there are fewer people in prison than previously.

Unfortunately, like several other initiatives relating to crime, the Bill is not being supported by the Government. Numerous speakers have referred to the whole area of crime. If we are to have effective control of crime, the first steps that must be addressed relate to the number of gardaí and the need for the physical presence of gardaí. The Minister of State will reply that the number of gardaí is increasing. We get this time and again but I want to make two points. If the number of gardaí is increasing, it is important that there is visibility on the street and in our communities. In any event, it is not happening because gardaí are preoccupied with other duties. Civilianisation requires a clear and distinct roadmap to show how we will free up more gardaí.

I wish to outline my view on Dublin specifically. I have received the replies time and again. From my work in my constituency and as a member of the joint policing committee I see more and more crimes being committed. The crimes range from scramblers in our park to antisocial behaviour. Every time I question the Minister on the issue specifically, he says that we have more gardaí. I have checked the figures. It is galling and drives me absolutely mad that there is no apparent decrease in the problem in Dublin. The number of gardaí nationally last year increased in 2017 by over 600. I get that time and again. However, what the Minister does not always say is that the number of gardaí in Dublin decreased by 100. Therein lies a large part of the problem. If we are going to deal effectively with this issue, it is not only a matter of the legislation but of all the other issues to which I have referred.

I compliment our justice spokesman, Deputy O'Callaghan, on bringing forward this Bill. I was in my office earlier when the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan, was responding to the contribution of Deputy O'Callaghan. I was very disappointed with the Minister's contribution on the Bill.

There is a serious problem. The public are annoyed about the amount of crimes committed when people are on bail. Ordinary people are frustrated in rural and urban areas. They are told that a person is out on bail for three, four, five, six, seven or eight offences. Yet, nothing is done to change it. We had the family of Shane O'Farrell in the House in the recent past. We had a motion discussing Shane O'Farrell's particular case. The person who murdered Shane O'Farrell had been in court eight times in the previous seven or eight months but was never put into custody. That is an extreme example of the way the bail laws and the system are failing people. His family's loss can never be recovered, but the least we can do is change the system so that can never happen again.

When I travel around rural areas, I knock on the doors. Ten or 15 years ago I could have simply pushed a door and it would have opened. Now, only a window will open or someone will squint out at me to see who is there. People are living in fear.

Amending the bail laws will not solve all the issues or stop all the crime. However, repeat offenders have to be taken out of circulation. The Minister referred to person's rights. What about the people against whom the crimes are committed? What about their rights? When repeat offenders are out on bail they believe they have a licence and that they will only get one sentence for whatever number of crimes they commit. This has to change. As Deputy Curran said, this Bill may be imperfect and it may be that some things in it need to be changed but certainly the laws in force at the moment on how bail operates are wrong and have to change. Let this Bill be a first step to ensure that repeat offenders, when they come into the judicial system, are kept in custody. That way the people in rural and urban Ireland will feel safer. In this way, we will take the first step to reduce crime figures and ensure that the people who commit these crimes are dealt with quickly.

The Minister, Deputy Flanagan, and I have listened to the debate with some interest. Earlier, the Minister agreed that an unacceptable amount of crime is being committed by people who have been charged with other offences and who are out on bail. However, the Government has already introduced changes to the bail laws to tackle this problem. The Minister argues that we need to give these changes, introduced in the Criminal Justice Act 2017, time to have an impact and we need to assess that impact before we introduce further changes. Among the provisions of the 2017 Act were amendments to facilitate the introduction and targeted use of electronic monitoring, so that proposal is already on the Statute Book. Much work has been done in my Department and in criminal justice agencies to implement those provisions. The Minister and I are confident that electronic monitoring, when used in this way, will be valuable in monitoring those on bail in certain circumstances.

The primary aim of the Bill before us is to make the refusal of bail mandatory where a court is satisfied that it is necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by the person. The Minister is advised that these proposals are inconsistent with the Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights. Because of the constitutional difficulties relate to the main aim of the Bill, namely, mandatory refusal of bail in particular circumstances, it does not appear that any amendment could make the provisions constitutional without also undermining that aim. When considering issues relating to bail, we must also consider that the accused person has not been convicted of the offence. He or she must be presumed innocent and has a right to liberty. These are fundamental rights that can only be curtailed in very limited circumstances. The proposals in this Bill, in the Minster's view, go too far in curtailing the right of the court to consider all the relevant factors before restricting a person's liberty. For that reason, the Government is not in a position to support the Bill.

As the Minister noted earlier, Operation Thor is a concrete example of how investing in Garda resources, including an overtime allocation of almost €100 million announced in budget 2018, has impacted on crime. Following the implementation of the winter phase of Operation Thor, there were 43% fewer burglaries of homes reported in March 2018 compared with October 2017. A significant drop in burglary offences conducted by persons has also been reported since Operation Thor was launched.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae and others referred to victims. Last year, we implemented the Victims of Crime Act. This has gone a long way towards supporting victims. It is not true to say that victims are not considered. I agree with Deputy Eugene Murphy who said that it is important to report every crime, no matter how small, because it adds to the knowledge and intelligence of An Garda Síochána.

Deputy Curran referred to prisons operating over capacity. There are certain pressures on prisons at the moment, partly due to the success of Operation Thor in targeting criminal gangs and roving criminals and bringing them before the courts, resulting in custodial sentences. It is a sign of the success of the criminal justice agencies that the prisons are under pressure. We must keep an eye on this situation.

I accept the aim behind the Bill but, unfortunately, the Government is advised that it is inconsistent with the Constitution. As a result, we cannot support it.

This country has a very serious problem with people committing offences while out on bail. The failure to address this has resulted in a situation whereby 12% of all crimes in 2017 were committed by persons who were out on bail. Some 18,926 crimes were recorded by such suspects in 2016.

This Bail (Amendment) Bill 2017, introduced by Deputy O'Callaghan, attempts to redress the balance between victims and offenders in the context of offences of a certain type, namely, domestic burglaries. This is the most heinous crime and it is very traumatic for victims. The sense of upset and invasion, and the feeling that someone was in one's home, rummaging through one's belongings is very difficult to come to terms with. Crimes of this nature can be opportunistic. Often cash and jewellery, especially gold, are the focus. It can be very traumatic for people who lose heirlooms as valuable items, passed from generation to generation, are lost for ever.

In a recent interview with The Irish Times, Assistant Commissioner John O'Driscoll said that last autumn, when the Garda had drawn up a list of burglary gangs it wanted to target during the winter phase of Operation Thor, the sheer extent of some of their criminal records stood out. In his view, the sentences imposed by the courts are failing to act as a deterrent for prolific burglars. This must be addressed and Fianna Fáil remains committed to the establishment of a judicial sentencing commission. Unfortunately statistics show that this type of crime is repeated time and again by offenders. Bail is not a deterrent.

The primary aim of the Bill is to target prolific offenders by requiring the court to refuse and application for bail to a person charged with a serious offence where the court is satisfied that such refusal is necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by that person. It also makes provision for the electronic monitoring of persons as a condition of bail in certain circumstances.

Strong community relations are the bedrock of an effective police force. However, reductions in the number of community gardaí across the country have damaged local links with the force. We need to cover all Garda districts to ensure that a community garda is based in the area and has strong links with the community. Communities have not sat back on this. In many areas, the community alert system have been set up. This system is very effective. In collaboration with local gardaí, a text system has been established whereby local information is fed to a Garda station manned on a 24-hour basis. The information is checked and, if correct, then texted to locals who can be alert to any situation and be the eyes and ears of the community.

If we are serious about tackling crime, this Bill should be allowed to progress to Committee Stage.

I sincerely thank my colleague, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, for bringing this Bill forward. It would be the fulfilment of the wishes of the people in a referendum held in the aftermath of the murder of Veronica Guerin. We need to get tough on crime and on criminals. The Department of Justice and Equality and the Government is not doing a sufficient job. It is not remotely interested in dealing with crime. Statistics have been massaged over recent years. The Central Statistics Office continues to regard them as being under reservation, which is extraordinary. I sincerely hope that the Garda Commissioner designate, Drew Harris - who I wish well - gets to grips with the matter of statistics. In that context I urge everyone to report every crime to An Garda Síochána to ensure that they are all recorded.

We see the failure of the Government's approach to criminal justice in the statistics that have been released on my own constituency today. Burglaries in the Ashbourne area have increased from 96 to 136; in Dunboyne from 47 to 84; in Laytown from 73 to 76; in Kells, a quiet town, they have doubled from 27 to 54; in Nobber they have increased from 12 to 18; and in Navan from 114 to 147. This is the Minister of State's record. It is the wishy-washy approach that we have become used to from Deputy Stanton's party, which used to be known as the part of law and order. That wishy-washy approach has to end.

Judges must be given their constitutionally proper roles but they must also be given guidance from the Oireachtas on the basis of the message of the people in the bail referendum more than 20 years ago. We must keep people on bail who are at serious risk of committing offences. Gardaí in my area have arrested various suspects in respect of burglaries committed there. They do fantastic work in bringing people to justice. However, while gardaí do their job and bring people to court, immediately these boys - and they are mainly boys - are let out on bail. They are gone again to rob, burgle, plunder and maim. That must end. The Minister of State must show the seriousness of his intent and his approach by supporting Deputy O'Callaghan's Bill. I sincerely hope that the House supports this Bill tomorrow because we have had enough.

The crime rate is too high and people are concerned. This has been a major issue on social media and so on in Dunboyne. The people there have noted that the number of burglaries has increased. They probably have not noted that it has almost doubled, but that is the feeling on the ground. The word is out there. People know what is happening to their neighbours. It is the same in Ashbourne, Kells, Navan, Nobber and throughout my constituency. I suspect the picture is the same throughout the country. I thank Deputy O'Callaghan and I call on the House to support this legislation tomorrow.

I thank all Members who contributed to the debate on the legislation. Many Members spoke in support of it. I will not deal directly with the comments they have made in my response but I appreciate their support.

I fully recognise that this is not some simple solution to the problem we have in this country in respect of crime. I fully recognise and agree that to resolve or cut down on the incidence of crime, a multifaceted approach is required. It is primarily an issue of resources. While it is about having more gardaí on the street, it is also about ensuring that we as legislators put in place legislation we think is effective and will be useful in vindicating the rights of individuals.

I fully recognise and accept the presumption of innocence and how it should apply. I fully respect and honour the principles of personal liberty in the Constitution. However, I also fully respect other provisions in the Constitution which were inserted relatively recently, and not in 1937, as referred to by my colleague, Deputy Byrne. We have to remember that in a referendum in 1996 the people voted to change the provision dealing with personal liberty so that a court could refuse bail being sought by a person charged with a serious offence where the court reasonably considered it necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by that person. That is as much part of our Constitution as the other provisions in respect of personal liberty. We need to recognise that people who are subjected to serious criminal attack are entitled to have their rights vindicated as well.

That brings me on to the issue this legislation seeks to deal with. We cannot get away from the fact that we have a problem in respect of individuals who are out on bail committing offences. The Government, Sinn Féin, the Labour Party and everyone else in the House agrees on that issue. Where we have some dispute is on the question of how we resolve that. Current legislation provides that a court may refuse an individual bail in respect of the commission of a serious offence if the court believes it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offence by that person. Deputy Ó Laoghaire is correct that the provision I have included in my legislation will preserve court discretion. The court will still have to determine whether it is likely that an applicant for bail will commit an offence in the future. That necessarily involves consideration. In his response, the Minister of State said that the Bill is blunt because it does not take into account an applicant for bail having a serious illness or a disability, for instance. Of course that will be taken into account by the court considering the application. The court will consider it unlikely that somebody with a disability or serious illness will commit an offence in the future. That discretion is preserved.

We also need to recognise that judges do not make law. We are the sole law-making body in this country. The people passed a referendum in 1996 and we need to give effect to it. I fully appreciate the comments of Deputies Ó Laoghaire and Sherlock who have concerns about the Bill. I will certainly take those concerns on board if the Bill passes Second Stage. I am happy to talk to the Deputies. The Government has simply said that the Bill is unconstitutional and that, therefore, it will not proceed with it. In light of what the people voted for in 1996, I do not know how it can be baldly stated that the Bill is unconstitutional. People voted for this change and we have a responsibility to implement it in statute.

Question put.

In accordance with Standing Order 70(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time on Thursday, 28 June 2018.

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