Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 26 Mar 2019

Vol. 980 No. 9

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Public Transport Provision

Deputy Martin Kenny

The issue I am raising today concerns wheelchair accessibility on Bus Éireann route 480 between Donegal and Sligo towns, which includes access to Institute of Technology Sligo. This has been raised particularly by a lady living in Ballyshannon, Victoria Matthews, who has protested and campaigned very hard on this. She is a wheelchair user. She intends to do a course in the institute of technology in Sligo and there is no public transport to bring her there because there is no wheelchair accessibility on the bus serving that route.

When she started this campaign, many others in similar situations in many parts of the country raised the issue and there have been articles about this issue in The Irish Times and other newspapers. When we talk to people in Bus Éireann the answer we get is that it is moving toward a situation where transport will be accessible to all. To do that properly it needs, in as many places as possible, particularly relatively short routes, such as the one from Donegal to Sligo, to use the buses with low access. When the bus pulls in a short ramp comes out and the person with the wheelchair is on the bus very quickly. That is the model we need to see in most places. Bus Éireann in Sligo tells me it has several buses doing that but they are not allocated to that route and it says it does not allocate the buses to the routes, that is done by the National Transport Authority, NTA. That is a disconnect that needs to be resolved.

I am sure the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport has a written reply telling me about all the places where there is public transport that is accessible to all. There are many routes in rural Ireland like this one, where people in wheelchairs and people who have difficulties and disabilities want to access public transport, not just from an equality point of view but also because it would enhance their lives and give them a sense of a future by doing courses in college, as this lady wants to do, or employment opportunities they may want to take up but that they do not even consider because travel to those places is closed off as there is not proper access on the bus routes.

I look forward to the Minister's reply. Vicky Matthews is starting this course at the end of next September. We need to see fully wheelchair-accessible transport in place between Donegal town and Sligo IT, and Sligo town, on that route 480 before then. I appeal to the Minister to make that happen.

Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Shane Ross)

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I am aware of the campaign and the case to which he is referring. Whereas we have concentrated and done an enormous amount for people with disabilities and there is no doubt about that, it is shown in the figures and the results, we cannot do everything and I cannot intervene in a specific case or route to satisfy one person, however awful their hardship. That is not my role. I will, however, certainly pass on what the Deputy says about that case to the NTA.

What we have done for disabilities in transport, what the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport has done and what people such as Senator Dolan and the Minister of State with special responsibility for disabilities, Deputy Finian McGrath, as well as others in this House who are involved, have done has involved making a great deal of progress but it is slow enough progress. When a Deputy brings an impeccable and unanswerable case like that before the House, we will do everything we possibly can to see that as soon as possible, the Deputy will not be able to come into the House with cases like that and nor will any other Deputy. There are multiple such cases around the country. I know the Deputy is right about that because certain coaches are not fully wheelchair accessible but we are moving as fast as we can in that direction. The Deputy's case, which is compelling, will be conveyed to the NTA and I will suggest that it should spur it on to further efforts to make sure the necessary measures are taken countrywide, which we aim to take as soon as possible.

I am not involved in the day-to-day operations of public transport. This is a very good and suitable forum for the Deputy to bring up the case but he would not expect me to say that I will move and do something with the 480 route between Donegal town and Sligo, including access to Sligo Institute of Technology, this evening. It is not something which is either within my power or would be possible for me to do. What the Deputy has done is to highlight the case which is there, as well as the case of others, who are undoubtedly in the same boat. I have explained to the House previously that under the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, the NTA has statutory responsibility for promoting the development of an integrated, accessible public transport network.

In addition, the NTA has responsibility for the purchase of bus and coach fleets required by Bus Éireann to which the Deputy referred, Dublin Bus, Go Ahead and other operators which operate subsidised public service obligation, PSO bus services on behalf of the NTA. The NTA has advised that Dublin Bus and Go Ahead fleets are fully wheelchair-accessible by ramp. All urban services operated by Bus Éireann are also fully wheelchair-accessible by ramp. However, and the Deputy obviously wishes to highlight this, Bus Éireann's regional services are primarily operated using high-floor coaches, which are wheelchair-accessible by lift. In practice, lifts are less flexible than ramps as they require the removal of seating in order to accommodate passengers in wheelchairs. I am advised that for that reason, passengers need to give Bus Éireann advance notice of their intention to travel. In addition, a large flat area of adjacent footpath is required to operate the lift, typically 3 m wide and 3.5 m in depth. According to the NTA, in many towns and villages it is extremely challenging to achieve the necessary footpath dimensions for the vehicle lift to function. Solutions such as relocating the bus stop to an alternative location may be necessary, but this can give rise to additional problems in that the alternative stop location may not suit other users. In other cases, land or property acquisition may be required to obtain the necessary space, potentially requiring the exercise of compulsory acquisition powers to acquire the relevant lands.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I understand that while the Minister cannot specifically deal with this case I would like to broaden the issue out. I met Vicky and other wheelchair users in Ballyshannon in recent weeks and they told me that if, for instance, they want to go to Dublin Airport on the bus, they can use a bus that has a lift to get onto the bus. However, they feel this is most inappropriate because it really emphasises their difference in society because the bus has to stop and a huge area of footpath is taken up after which a ramp comes out and comes down. As one of them said, it is like loading cargo. It takes almost ten minutes for them to get loaded onto the bus. Then if it is a long bus trip in particular, very few of them use it but try to get a train instead because at least on a train, there are toilet facilities, which do not exist on the bus. The bus does not stop and if it does stop somewhere where they want to use the toilet, it is a siege and a half to get off the bus and get back on again.

There really needs to be some joined-up thinking on this issue. The Minister's reference to the National Transport Authority in respect of that is well and good but high-floor buses basically do not work for people in wheelchairs or for people with disabilities in general. I looked at that bus that was being used in Donegal. It was parked in the bus station in Ballyshannon on one of the days we were visiting the town. I counted six steps to get up to the level of the bus. Even if one takes away the person in the wheelchair, there is the elderly person and it is a serious issue for older or more frail people who have difficulty walking or using steps. What we need to do is to quickly move to a situation where low-access buses are used in as many places as possible. Particularly in the case of long journeys, if rail transport can be used and is more accessible, we need to make sure there are links to such transport for people with disabilities. In some cases, one will be talking about going back to trying to have a taxi available to bring people to college and so on.

In this particular case, there is a solution. There are buses based in Sligo that have low access and if those buses are transferred onto this route, this issue can be solved. I appreciate it is not the Minister's job to direct the National Transport Authority but at the same time, I am sure he could have a conversation with it, without directing it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Hopefully, the NTA hears what the Deputy is saying.

Deputy Shane Ross

So can the Deputy. I am sure the NTA would be as accessible to him as it is to me. I agree with everything the Deputy says. I will not be content until we have got a situation where those in wheelchairs can travel as easily as we can and we are nowhere near that situation yet. I am not saying anything in a mood of self-satisfaction but hopefully we are moving in that direction. We have acknowledged it with additional funds and fast moves in the direction of greater accessibility but it is not good enough yet.

Let me update the Deputy with the situation as it is now. The NTA's objective is to upgrade bus stops, where possible, to ensure that all main towns have at least one wheelchair lift-accessible bus stop in each direction. This programme is at an early stage. The NTA advised that plans are in progress for the installation of wheelchair-accessible stops at Ballyshannon and Sligo bus stations. However, according to the NTA, it is likely to be 2020 or 2021 before those works are completed. The NTA is aware that high floor single deck coaches do not offer a good customer experience to wheelchair users, which is what the Deputy referred to. While there is currently no viable alternative to the use of these vehicles on longer distance services, the NTA, along with Bus Éireann, is implementing a change in its fleet strategy for shorter regional commuter services. In future, an increasing number of these services will be operated by low entry coach-style vehicles, rather than high-floor coaches. The NTA is in the process of procuring these vehicles, which are equipped with a ramp at the entrance door suitable for the mobility impaired and a dedicated wheelchair space within a low floor area in the front half of the vehicle.

In the normal course of events, operators are responsible for determining the allocation of bus fleet to individual bus routes. From a policy perspective, I advised the House recently that one of my priorities is to complete a review of existing public transport policy as committed to under A Programme for a Partnership Government. This review is a significant and substantial resource commitment and my Department has commenced and substantially completed the research and analysis required. I urge everyone, including Members of the Oireachtas, to take the opportunity to contribute to the public consultation and outline their views on all aspects of public transport policy, including in relation to accessible public transport.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Minister taking the next matter?

Deputy Shane Ross

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

We will suspend the House for five minutes in view of the absence of any Minister to take any business.

Sitting suspended at 6.09 p.m. and resumed at 6.15 p.m.

Home Care Packages Provision

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

There is a serious crisis in the area in which I live for people suffering disability who are trying to live at home and maintain a living standard in their own home with due and proper care. There are nine community healthcare organisation, CHO, areas in the country. I live in County Louth and represent part of County Meath. My community healthcare organisation area also includes part of the midlands. I had a constituent who, because of their disability, was entitled to 56 hours home support per week. For days, they would lie bedridden with nobody to care for them or go in and out. The other family member was away working during these hours. The answer we were given as to why there was nobody to do the work, even though 56 hours had been granted, was that the only hours which could be allocated are recouped from existing service users and recycled. In other words, somebody would have to die before that person could get the hours they needed. It is not the only such case in this area. At least three other cases have been brought to my attention where a person needed a significant number of home support hours and could not get them until another party died. That is absolutely unacceptable, particularly in these days when, as the Minister of State knows and which I welcome, more money than ever is available to allow people to have home help.

I refer the Minister of State to the spending review of 2018 entitled, Trends in Public Social Care Service Provision and Expenditure for Older Persons. Figure 9 on page 17 of that report is exceptionally clear. It shows that of the nine community health areas, CHO 8, which covers Louth, Meath and the midlands, has a ratio of home care expenditure and percentage of population aged over 75 that is 30% less than is expected. There is a significant underspend in Louth, Meath and the midlands in respect of home care. These are figures produced by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform based on census data from the year 2016. It is absolutely unacceptable. I acknowledge and support the Government policy of a statutory right to home care packages. I support people's right to have care in their homes, the right not to be forced into nursing homes against their will and the right to independent living as best they can. However, it is not happening in my constituency.

I would also bring another case to the Minister of State's attention. I refer to a child of six who has a rare syndrome, Pallister-Killian syndrome. After they passed the age of five, 18 months ago, they passed from the care of the Jack and Jill Children's Foundation into State services. For 18 months they have been granted home care hours but there is nobody to provide that service whom the HSE will pay. This person lives in the County Meath part of my constituency and the services providers there cannot provide a qualified person. There is somebody who is qualified for the Jack and Jill services, who can provide the services professionally but the HSE will not pay them. That is a shame and a disgrace. The family is in deep distress. They have asked me to bring the matter to the Minister of State for reply this evening.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Finian McGrath)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue and giving me the opportunity to outline the position on the provision of home care packages for people with disabilities. I can assure him of the Government’s commitment to providing services and supports for people with disabilities, which will empower them to live independent lives, provide greater independence in accessing the services they choose and enhance their ability to tailor the supports required to meet their needs and plan their lives. The commitment is outlined in A Programme for a Partnership Government and guided by the principles of equality of opportunity and improving the quality of life for people with disabilities. This year €1.9 billion has been allocated for the HSE’s disability service programme, which represents an increase of 7.5% on the allocation for last year. It will fund the provision of a wide and complex range of services and supports for people with disabilities, including the provision of home support packages. HSE disability services constantly review all allocated hours to ensure a fair and equitable distribution of resources in an effort to meet emerging needs. The review of the current allocation is ongoing and every effort is being made to meet demand within the current available resources.

The HSE is also working to improving quality of life for people with disabilities through the provision of home support hours. In its national service plan for 2018 the executive’s priority was to provide 2.93 million home support hours for over 7,400 people with a disability. The actual number of home support hours provided in 2018 was higher; over 3 million hours were provided for over 8,000 people with a disability. This reflects the responsive nature of the service and takes account of the fluctuation in assessed need over time, as the needs of individual people change. This year the HSE is committed to maximising the provision of health and social care services, including home support services, within available resources. In its national service plan for 2019 the HSE expects to deliver over 3.08 million home support hours to over 8,000 people with a disability. This represents an increase of 150,000 hours on the last year’s target.

We are committed to providing services and supports for people with disabilities which will empower them to live independent lives. The goal is to help as many people as we can. This is a positive development, on which we can build in years to come.

On the individual matter raised by the Deputy, I am sure he will understand my reluctance to speak in any great detail in the House about the specifics of any one case, given the personal nature and circumstances of the matter. However, I am aware that a multi-disciplinary team meeting was held on 11 March to discuss the current waiting list in the County Meath disability service, with a view to the prioritisation and allocation of resource hours which became available this week. Subsequently, the individual concerned was allocated 42 hours a week. She will remain on the waiting list to be allocated the additional 14 hours. The Deputy can be assured that I will take a special interest in the case.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I thank the Minister of State for his reply, but I regret that I do not accept the principle he is enunciating. He is saying more and more money is being spent, but that is not the case in the CHO 8 area. Funding only became available when people died; I have received a letter from the HSE to that effect. They have been called "recycled hours", meaning that they have been reallocated on someone's death. While I agree and acknowledge that more money is being spent than ever before, it is not being spent in this area and I want the Minister of State to investigate the reason for this. I have spoken to officials in the HSE who are also very concerned. Why is it the case that the service in CHO 8 has not received an increase in allocation? Why is there no money available? People are coming to my office and I have to fight for their rights. What about the poor child, aged six years, who cannot receive the 18 hours he has been granted? That is unacceptable in our society. I acknowledge the work the Minister of State is doing and the €20 million in extra funding he is providing to keep people out of hospital and in their homes, but we are not going far enough. As a Government, we have to do a lot more in providing disability services for people who need care and want to stay at home. They are being placed in appalling situations, including the lady I described. The request was not made yesterday or the day before but last year when she was in a wheelchair, not bedridden like she is now. The quality of care she needed and which it was agreed to provide was denied to her. Her human rights were denied. Someone somewhere has a policy and is enforcing a rule in an area at the beginning of a financial year in which more money than ever before has been provided to make sure a service is available.

Deputy Finian McGrath

This is a very important issue and we have to understand exactly what has happened. The topic affects many people throughout the country. The home support service provides domestic or personal care inputs on a weekly basis. Temporary relief is offered to the carer by way of providing a trained, reliable care attendant to look after the needs of the person with a disability. The service provides support for parents which enables them to spend quality time with other siblings in the family. It also supports the individual with the disability in the context of his or her care plan, with particular attention being paid to the personal needs of the individual. Home supports can be provided through a dedicated home support service or the generic home health service. They can be an alternative to residential care where support for the individuals in daily living can avoid the need for a full-time residential service. I assure the House that I will do everything in my power to ensure these services will be protected and I hope increased over time in order that more individuals can be supported.

On the specific case raised by the Deputy, the HSE endeavours to use the funding and hours available in the most effective ways possible. The Government's ongoing priority is to safeguard vulnerable people in the care of the health service. We are spending €1.9 billion on disability services in 2019, which represents an increase of 7.5%. I recently announced an extra €10 million in funding for respite care houses throughout the country. Some ten new houses have been completed to date and another two will be completed in the next couple of months. One of the first things the Government did after being formed was to restore the carer's grant of €1,700 per family to 101,000 families.

There are issues we have to resolve and I give a commitment that I will follow up on the case highlighted by the Deputy.

Hospital Facilities

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Ó 2011 níl ach ceann de na seomraí obráide i bPáirc Mhuirlinne ag obair agus tá scuaine mhór daoine ag fanacht anois ar chóir leighis agus níl tada á dhéanamh faoi ach geallúintí folmha nach bhfuil á gcomhlíonadh. Tá sé in am ag an HSE agus ag an Aire a dhéanamh cinnte de go bhfuil na saoráidí seo ar fáil i nGaillimh. Tá iontas orm nach bhfuil siad ar fáil i nGaillimh.

There is an extraordinary situation in Galway where some 2,000 patients in need of an orthopaedic operation who have been seen by a consultant are awaiting the procedure. It is the worst backlog I have ever seen in my time in politics and happening because there is a problem with the roof at Merlin Park hospital. Instead of having two operating theatres, only one is operable. There was supposed to be a quick solution, including the provision of temporary buildings. Therefore, I find it difficult to understand why the building has not been repaired by now.

In the meantime, the roof of the operating theatre in Merlin Park cannot be fixed to allow operations to take place. A temporary modular building cannot be put in as promised to allow operations to take place. The patients do not care how it is done. They just want it done.

Many years ago when I was selling fencing stakes, I once ran out of them. Somebody rang me looking for fencing stakes. When I started giving excuses, they said something to me that has stuck in my mind since. They said: "Éamon, I'm not looking for excuses. I'm looking for fencing stakes." The people in Galway are looking for orthopaedic procedures, not excuses. Some 2,000 people are in pain waiting for services such as hip and knee procedures, injections that have to be done in an operating theatre, operations on backs etc. They want to know when they will be put out of their pain and misery and have the service provided.

The past eight years have been characterised by more reports, more investigations and more procedures except for the procedures that are not being done, namely, the actual operations. We have had every other kind of procedure to prevent from happening the procedures we need to happen - those operations on patients that need to be done to take them out of their misery and let them get on with their lives. As the Minister of State knows, people waiting in pain often take a large number of painkillers etc. which can have its own effect on the body.

I hope the Minister of State has good news for me and a firm date for when we will start tackling these waiting lists, ensuring that the people of Galway and the west in general have a very basic service.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Ar dtús, gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta as ucht an t-ábhar seo a ardú agus tá orainn go léir obair a dhéanamh ar son muintir na Gaillimhe. I thank the Deputy for raising this very important issue. Of course, he has to be given a very detailed and considered response.

Galway University Hospitals, GUH, comprises University Hospital Galway, UHG, and Merlin Park University Hospital, both managed by the Saolta University Health Care Group. Merlin Park University Hospital provides elective medical and surgical orthopaedic and minor surgery services, renal services, including a haemodialysis unit, two designated rehabilitation units, and a number of specialist outpatient clinics.

As the Deputy is aware, in September 2017, leaks developed in the roof of a building in the Merlin Park hospital campus that housed the hospital’s two orthopaedic theatres. To ensure a continuation of the orthopaedic service and with the support of Merlin Park staff, the hospital facilitated the transfer of elective sessions to University Hospital Galway, UHG. In addition, some minor procedures were undertaken in hospital 1 Merlin Park. In March 2018, remedial work facilitated the reopening of one of the two theatres at Merlin Park to restore service.

To bring the services back up to full capacity, a tender process was undertaken to provide two modular theatres and a successful vendor was selected for the project. Contracts were exchanged and were under discussion between both parties and a planning application was submitted in December 2018. However, the HSE has advised that, unfortunately, contracts could not be executed, and after discussion with legal advisers, the decision was taken to terminate this procurement. The HSE is working on a revised procurement strategy to restore full capacity at Merlin Park.

It is important that patients are aware that services have continued to be provided at Merlin Park since the initial problem arose. In the 12 months to the end of September 2018, more than 2,300 patients had orthopaedic procedures at Merlin Park. Every week, an additional ten theatre sessions are completed, treating 44 cases on average.

To address the waiting list issues immediately, the hospital is working to optimise current capacity to treat patients. The Government is committed to providing timely access to treatment for patients and has further increased investment in tackling waiting lists, with funding to the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, increasing from €55 million in 2018 to €75 million this year.

The recently published Department of Health-HSE-NTPF scheduled care access plan for 2019 sets out measures to improve care for patients waiting for scheduled care in 2019 by reducing waiting times for inpatient and day case treatment and outpatient appointments. The plan will again this year place a strong focus on high-volume procedures, including orthopaedics. When combined with HSE activity, it is projected that the NTPF will be in a position to offer treatment to all clinically suitable patients waiting more than six months for hip or knee replacements. The NTPF will deliver additional activity in the health service by working with hospital groups and individual hospitals as well as private healthcare providers to maximise the number of patients treated in both a public and private capacity. I strongly encourage all hospitals, including Galway University Hospital, to collaborate with the NTPF to identify waiting list initiatives.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It is extraordinary that in September 2017 there was a problem with the roof and it will not be solved by September 2019. Having gone halfway down the road like so many processes, they all seem to run into legal, procurement or other problems. We are meant to have a dedicated national procurement process. It seems to me that in the old days when we could just procure stuff, we could get the jobs done. The Minister of State said they are working on a revised procurement strategy. In other words they are on the never-never. When does the Minister of State think we will have two theatres operational in Galway again? How long will this new process take until we actually have theatres fitted out and operational? He might throw in an answer as to why the roof could not just have been mended. It must be some roof.

How many people from Galway have had to avail of EU treaty rights and leave the jurisdiction to get basic services because they could not wait any longer? The Minister of State has said that nobody will have to wait more than six months. When will that actually happen? How many people are projected then to be on the waiting list rather than the 2,000 on the waiting list at the moment? We need specific answers and we need to know the facts.

At the end of the day, as I said in the beginning, people do not want excuses or explanations. They want operations carried out. For some, if they have access to money, the EU treaty rights provide some escape valve. It is ridiculous that we have to send people out of our country for basic services, but we have to because of the incompetence of the Government. For those without ready cash, that is not even a way out.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I again thank the Deputy for raising the matter. Of course, I accept the points he raised, including certain detailed questions that need responses. The HSE advises me that it is in the process of appointing a procurement strategy design team to develop the new procurement strategy. The HSE advises me that the planning application has been lodged and a request for further information has been received. As part of removing the contractor from the previous process, this request for further information will need to be responded to. These are the reasons for the delay.

I reassure the Deputy that the Government is committed to reducing waiting times for patients and improving access to care. The Department of Health is working with the HSE and the Saolta group to restore the full orthopaedic hospital at Merlin Park as soon as possible. On the individual issues the Deputy raised, I will bring his concerns back to the Minister, Deputy Harris, and we will respond accordingly.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Will the Minister of State get me a specific answer to a specific question since he has not been briefed on them?

Local Authority Boundaries

Deputy Seamus Healy

Clonmel is the largest town in Tipperary. It is the county town and has a population of more than 17,000 people or 11% of the population of the county. The last Fine Gael-Labour Party Government that was in office from 2011 to 2016 significantly damaged Clonmel. It abolished Clonmel Borough Council; it closed the 50-bed St. Michael's psychiatric unit in South Tipperary General Hospital; it closed Kickham Barracks, a military establishment in Clonmel since 1650, with the loss of 150 jobs and approximately €10 million that was spent annually; and it transferred the headquarters of the vocational education committee from Clonmel.

The Minister of State's recent decision regarding the municipal district of Clonmel and Cahir has made matters worse. Far from restoring the borough council, it makes Clonmel the second smallest municipal district in the county. It significantly reduces funding to the town and it reduces staffing. As the district manager told the Minister of State recently at a meeting in the town hall in Clonmel, a practical example of this was where it had been proposed that the current scheme for the centre of the town enhancement programme in O'Connell Street, Gladstone Street and Irishtown was to be done over a five-year period, it will now take ten years. The Minister of State's decision has also undermined local democracy further. It removes Cahir, which is in the hinterland of Clonmel and has always been associated with Clonmel, from the municipal district. I ask the Minister of State to reverse that decision and to be fair to Clonmel and the local area.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to raise this Topical Issue matter and for his forbearance. This is an example of a smash and grab. We had an independent review, the findings of which we all accepted. Tipperary County Council and others made their submissions to it and we accepted it. This is going back to the Tullymandering days of the heavy gang in the 1973-77 coalition. Fine Gael paid the price for that.

This is an outright attack on Clonmel and Cahir. As Deputy Healy said, Clonmel, our county town, has been destroyed. As I have said, we kept Cromwell out of it but we could not keep the then Minister, Phil Hogan, out of it when he destroyed our borough council, which we had for centuries and in which we had great pride. We had €15.1 million of a fund in those days. We have only pennies now, crumbs from the table in Nenagh, which is a secondary town and it was always was, and I have nothing against the people of Nenagh. With respect to the county manager and his three-man team, Mr. McEvoy agreed to the amalgamation with respect to roads, planning and finance in terms of Nenagh and left Clonmel with precious little.

Putting Cahir in with Tipperary and Cashel is a travesty and an injustice. There is not even a road, or a hiking path, over the Galtee Mountains to get from Skeheenaranky or Burncourt, or Araglin or indeed Clogheen to Tipperary Town. One has to go into County Cork, into County Limerick and back to Tipperary or else go back into Cahir or Bansha. It is unjust. Who gives the Minister of State the right to do this? The Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, stood up here and said that the boundary commission did not do its job correctly and that they were going to add to it. That is outright Fine Gael arrogance; arrogance of the highest order. Its members think they can do what they like with the people but the people will have the final say and they are waiting for them in the long grass.

This is unworkable. They did not include the Tipperary name in the district. The Minister of State apologised for that, and he said something about getting married. I wish him and his wife well in their marriage but this is disgraceful. They omitted to include the brand name of Tipperary. What kind of officials were they who would think of the name of a district without including the name of Tipperary, which is recognised all over the world? I know the Minister of State represents Kilkenny, as did the then Minister, Phil Hogan, big Phil the enforcer, as I like to call him, but this coming from the Minister of State was outrageous. We kept Cromwell out but we cannot keep his interference out of Clonmel and Cahir, destroying the area and forcing us into an area that is unworkable, too distant from us, and this also resulting in a loss of money to the area.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister of State should remember his wedding when replying.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government (Deputy John Paul Phelan)

I will.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I wish you well.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I thank the Deputies for raising this issue. Changes to local electoral areas may only be carried out following the completion of a review, by an independent boundary committee, established under section 28 of the Local Government Act 1991. The Act states that the Minister must have regard to the report of a boundary committee before deciding on whether to make an order amending local electoral areas. The terms of reference for a boundary committee are set by the Minister.

A municipal district is an administrative sub-division of a local authority, as designated by ministerial order, and is therefore separate and distinct, although obviously linked to local electoral areas.

Local authority members and the Association of Irish Local Government had raised concerns regarding a number of issues in respect of local electoral areas. A concern was raised regarding the need to ensure large urban centres were adequately represented. I established two independent local electoral area committees, committees Nos. 1 and 2 in December 2017, to review and make recommendations on local electoral areas. In response to the concerns raised, I specifically asked the committees to have regard to, among other things, the need to ensure adequate representation for large urban centres.

The recommendations in the local electoral area boundary committee reports in respect of electoral boundaries were accepted in full. Alas, Deputy Mattie McGrath was around during the era of the Tullymander, which he mentioned.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I was around.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

Boundaries for electoral purposes were accepted in full in Tipperary and everywhere else. The issue of municipal district boundaries was not one that committees were asked to adjudicate upon but one of the committees chose to do so, in spite of the fact that one of the distinct terms of reference was that each of the five former boroughs would have its own separate municipal district. I reiterate that the boundary committee reports, in terms of local electoral area boundaries, were accepted in full. I signed the statutory instruments on 19 December. I was married on 21 December, as Deputy McGrath pointed out.

The overall policy objectives, particularly regarding large urban electoral areas with populations in excess of 15,000, were largely met but were not in the case of several of the former boroughs.

In considering how best to configure the municipal districts in Tipperary and in order to ensure that Clonmel is adequately represented, I designated a distinct municipal district entitled "Borough District of Clonmel". The local electoral areas of Cahir and Cashel-Tipperary were aligned in a single municipal district. I visited Clonmel and Tipperary town recently to discuss the municipal districts with local members. We will certainly in the next week or so be changing the name of Cahir-Cashel-Tipperary municipal district to include the name Tipperary.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

How could you have left it out?

Deputy John Paul Phelan

More generally, the case for the replacement of the out-of-date town authority regime with a new model of municipal governance under the Local Government Reform Act 2014 was and remains very strong. Local government has been strengthened within counties and inefficient administration and duplication between town and county authorities, regarding matters such as budgeting, planning, rating and charges, have been dealt with. The fundamental democratic deficit that existed in the old system where certain citizens got two votes and others got one has been removed. There is now full integration of local authority resources across each county and an elimination of duplication both in administrative and electoral terms.

Citizens who live in large and growing population centres and rural areas, who previously lacked any sub-county representative governance, now have municipal districts representing and responding to their local needs and I am satisfied with the operation of those arrangements.

Deputy Seamus Healy

The situation is obvious. Decisions the Minister of State has taken have damaged and further damage Clonmel and Cahir and they continue the serious damage done to the town of Clonmel during the term of the previous Government. The decisions that have been taken are unbalanced. The moving of Cahir to Tipperary and Cashel in this respect is completely without justification. There is no connection between the two areas. Cahir was always related to Clonmel. The only adequate way to represent towns is to re-establish boroughs and town councils, and the Minister of State should do that immediately.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I wish the Minister of State well. He definitely took his eye off the ball, as did his officials who designed this new area, including Tipperary, Cashel and Cahir, and they left out the name of Tipperary. They should not be getting paid by any Department because of such a disconnection with respect to the brand name of Tipperary, which we can market around the county. This is an outright attack, nothing short of it, a Fine Gael attack. The Minister of State came to Clonmel, we met him and he saw the resistance there. Tipperary County Council voted overwhelmingly to oppose this at its most recent meeting. When the Minister of State went on to Tipperary he got a lovely gift - I hope it was Tipperary crystal - from his Fine Gael colleague, Councillor Michael Fitzgerald, the cathaoirleach. That was nothing short of a bribe.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I do not mean a bribe.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy does not mean that.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

No, I do not mean a bribe but it was a nice little jolly present. Perhaps it was for the wedding, and perhaps I am wrong.

Nonetheless, it is not a laughing matter. This has done untold damage to the town of Clonmel, a proud town with a proud history. As I said, we kept Cromwell out of it but we cannot keep Fine Gael from destroying it - the Army barracks, St Michael's hospital and the VEC, not to mention the loss of services to the county council.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Has the Minister of State given any consideration to the staff of the county council, such as the outdoor staff and the engineering staff who have to try to manage this but who will not be able to manage it, as well as the loss of revenue to Clonmel due to the roles that will go from Cahir to Tipperary? He has given none.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

On the issue of Clonmel being attached to Cahir, in my time in local government, Clonmel and Cahir were always two separate districts. I understand and I fully accept the geographical issue that there are difficulties in getting from Cahir to Cashel because of natural boundaries that exist in that part of the world.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Of course there are; the Galtee Mountains.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

However, with regard to the understanding from Deputy Healy that there has always been a connection, there has not been. The connection was established in the last review, which put Cahir and Clonmel into the same district.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

There was a connection.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Minister of State to respond.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

It was up to Tipperary County Council to read the terms of reference and make a submission accordingly. I completely refute the accusation made. In fact, it was at the behest of local authority members, as well as some Members of this House, that the former borough towns would have a separate municipal district with a view to giving them extra status. The idea that this reduces the status of Clonmel-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What about the money?

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I am only answering the question. The idea that this reduces the status of Clonmel-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It does.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

-----bears no resemblance to the truth.

Deputy McGrath asked who or what gives me the right. The designation of municipal districts is a ministerial function, not a function of any electoral boundary review because municipal districts are not electoral boundaries of themselves but are administrative boundaries. I want to state to the people of Clonmel there will be no loss of funding to the citizen.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

There is.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

There is not. It is a dishonest argument of the two Deputies. It is completely dishonest to suggest that the money that is allocated for Cahir is somehow money for Clonmel when it is not. The central funding will not be adversely affected for Clonmel. It will receive the same, if not increased, funding into the future as under the Local Government Fund.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Minister of State does not understand it.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

That is the truth.

Deputy Seamus Healy

It is reducing it.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

Both Deputies are making some valid points but there is a central dishonesty if they believe this is going to reduce because it is not going to reduce.

Deputy Seamus Healy

It is Fine Gael dishonesty.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

It is going to place extra emphasis on having a separate and distinct municipal district for Clonmel.

An Ceann Comhairle

At least it is good that we could finish Topical Issues in such an animated fashion. I wonder if the Aircraft Noise (Dublin Airport) Regulation Bill 2018 will excite as much energy.