Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 6 Feb 2025

Vol. 1062 No. 5

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Childcare Services

Deputy Emer Currie

As this is my first time to speak in the House, I express my sincere gratitude to the people of Dublin West who have given me the honour of representing them - I will work every day to show them it was the right decision - to my supporters, who showed up for me day in and day out, and to my family: daddy, who is watching from his armchair in heaven surrounded by newspapers, my mum, the most tolerant politician's wife and now politician's mother in the world, and my husband and daughters, who are quickly following in their footsteps.

A total of 262 childcare services in Fingal signed up to core funding this year. As of 13 January, 37% of those services applied for a fee adjustment if they were charging below the county average and struggling with increased operating costs. A total of 17% have been approved for a fee increase and 34 decisions remain outstanding. At least 45 services have already increased their fees across Fingal, which has been passed on to hundreds of parents who bought into and benefited from the increase in subsidies under the national childcare scheme last year, who felt a reduction in their household bills in September, only to see it or a portion of it wiped out. The number in the Dublin city area is similar. Approximately 17% of core funding services will see an adjustment, so 17% of families will see an increase of some sort in fees. Both of these administrative areas are relevant to the people I represent in Dublin West.

Will the new Minister for children, Deputy Foley, now correct this flawed approach and make good on the pledge to further reduce childcare fees for all parents as per the new programme for Government commitment to review and increase core funding?

I welcome the Government's commitment to review and increase core funding. I believe that at this point it is essential for the sustainability of the sector. The cost of staffing, for example, has increased significantly since the 2019 fee freeze. Payscales will continue to grow, I hope, and a number of providers' fees predated 2019. Not every childcare provider is the same, especially those who have scale and shared resources on their side. I appreciate the approach must be dynamic.

I will take this opportunity to welcome the commitment to reduce the administrative burden on providers. Our childcare providers should be doing what they do best, which is educating and caring for our children and not spending most of their time as auditors of national schemes. Our local childcare services require adequate funding to stand still and to grow, and parents should be able to access affordable fees.

The work of the review must start today, based on the increases these parents are experiencing. One parent told me her fees have increased by €80 per month since September and they will increase again. Another said the additional cost this month is €250 as the crèche is backdating fees, and it will be an additional €140 per month. Other families are fearful of impending decisions and want clarity from the Government. We need further analysis of the range of adjustments to understand the impact on parents and assist them through the process. There is confusion and we need to understand this. I have seen the correspondence shared with parents on fee increases. Reassurance from the Department that an increase in childcare subsidies will mitigate fee increases, instead of reducing overall household bills, is very different and not what our stated objective was.

Minister of State at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)

I congratulate Deputy Currie on a personal level on her election in Dublin West. I know how passionate and hard-working she is. It is great to see her rewarded and sitting in Dáil Éireann today. I know her family are very proud and, in particular, I know her father would be very proud of what she has achieved. I look forward to working with her. I am taking this Topical Issue on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Foley, and I will raise the issues Deputy Currie has raised directly with the Minister. They are very important for us as a Government and we look forward to working with Deputy Currie.

I thank Deputy Currie for raising this very important issue and for offering me the opportunity to respond. I know from her time in the Seanad, and now representing the constituency of Dublin West in the Dáil, that the cost of childcare is one she has been raising consistently and one she is very passionate about. By way of background, core funding represents a significant increase in income for services and allowed for the introduction of the fee management system in line with the recommendations of the expert group in the Partnership for the Public Good report.

The first step in introducing fee management was to limit increases in fee rates, which in years one and two was effectively a fee freeze, whereby providers could not increase the fees charged from September 2021. Core funding has allowed for substantial increases in the total cost base for the sector, related both to pay and non-pay costs, thereby creating the conditions for this. This effective fee freeze ensured the increases to the national childcare scheme universal subsidy in 2023 were fully felt by parents in corresponding reductions in out-of-pocket costs.

In recognition of the notable difference in fees charged across the sector, and given that some services may have been operating with a fee that was not sufficient to sustain the business, even with increased State investment through core funding, a fee increase assessment process was introduced in year three of the programme. The fee increase assessment process balanced the need of parents for stability in their early learning and childcare costs and the need for providers to operate viable businesses in order to continue providing this public good service for their community.

The fee increase application process opened on 31 July 2024. Only services charging fees below the average in their county were eligible to apply. There was an assessment to ensure there was a demonstrable need for a fee increase before approval was granted. Where a demonstrable need to increase a fee was confirmed, the resulting increase did not exceed 74 cent per hour, and the maximum weekly increase was €33.30, which was equivalent to the increase to the national childcare scheme subsidy from September 2024. For example, a place offering 45 hours was eligible for a maximum increase of €33.30 while a place offering 20 hours was eligible for a maximum increase of €14.80. The process closed for applications on 29 November 2024. Only services charging low fees, those being fees below the average in their county, were eligible to apply. For example, if a service offered five fee options and one fell below the county average, only the one fee below the county average was eligible to enter the assessment process. The onus was on the provider to demonstrate a need for a fee increase.

Where parents may be seeing an increase in their fees as a result of this process, those in receipt of the universal subsidy, for example, will not see an increase in out-of-pocket costs compared to this time last year because of the maximum increase allowable under the process. For parents on the universal subsidy using the full hours offered, fees are not increasing beyond the level charged in September 2022, when core funding was introduced. These parents will have been paying some of the lowest fees in the country. As well as the fee increase process, a cap on fees was introduced for services joining core funding for the first time in the third year. A fee cap will apply to all services in core funding from September 2025. This change will improve affordability for parents, as very high fees will be reduced.

Deputy Emer Currie

I thank the Minister of State for taking this on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Foley. I believe I understand the parameters by which the fee adjustment has been operated but I still feel there is a difference between using the subsidies to mitigate fee increases and reducing the impact on individual families and the real cost of their childcare. A 25% reduction in childcare fees in the household budget in 2023 was meaningful but the 50% reduction last September was significant. We should still honour this. We should examine it in advance of, or along with, the more transformative reforms we have in the programme for Government. I do not think we should leave 17% of families behind in terms of the full scope of subsidies and the impact on the household budget they would provide. For the purposes of today, I am focused on the need to review and increase them initially.

We have stated that there is a commitment to work in partnership with private providers, most of whom are women providing local services that families truly value and depend on. We also need to go beyond our near total reliance on private providers so that all communities have access to services, developing a system of forward planning and the delivery of appropriate childcare infrastructure capable of meeting demand. For now, childcare services need to be funded fairly in order to be viable operations, and parents need the most affordable fees we can provide.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I thank Deputy Currie. Her passion for this issue has been very clear throughout her contributions this morning and previously. I will relay the points she has raised to the Minister, Deputy Foley, who has responsibility for this area. The introduction of core funding in 2022 brought a significant increase in investment for the sector of €259 million, paid directly to services in the first year of the scheme, of which €210.8 million was entirely new funding. Now in its third year of operation, core funding is worth €331 million. The increases implemented from September last year facilitate increases in the base rate for all age groups. The strengthening of targeted measures was introduced in 2023 to support sessional and smaller services and growth in the sector. Fee management was introduced, with the substantial investment of core funding, following the recommendations of the expert group in the Partnership for the Public Good report.

For Deputy Currie's information, a total of 1,147 services submitted applications to the fee increase assessment team in 2024. As of 5 February 2025, a total of 1,098 decisions have been issued to eligible services. Additionally, of the 1,147 applicants, a total of 811 have been approved to increase at least one fee, which equates to a success rate of 73.86%.

Parents and guardians and their children can only avail of the benefits and protections that core funding creates, such as the effective fee freeze, at 2021 levels, if their service has chosen to participate in the scheme as a partner service. It is a matter for providers to decide whether they wish to withdraw from the core funding scheme, the significant financial supports it provides to providers and the certainty it provides to parents through the associated fee management measures. However, the Minister, Deputy Foley, is confident that given the level of investment and the associated supports, services should not need to take this step. While a provider may withdraw from core funding, they will remain eligible in the programme year to provide the national childcare scheme, the early childhood care and education programme and the community childcare subvention plus saver programme.

Agriculture Schemes

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I congratulate Deputy Currie as well. I look forward to working with her again in her capacity as a Teachta Dála. I worked with her before on North-South matters of peace and reconciliation. That is very important to both of us. I look forward to working in that vein with Deputy Currie.

I congratulate the Minister, Deputy Heydon, on his new role. The first challenge for him to tackle is the need to sort out the ACRES debacle. I spoke to him about it yesterday. Honest to God, I have never seen anything like the situation with ACRES. I have been dealing with agriculture since long before I entered politics. This is the worst ever. I would nearly say that the Minister should leave other things aside to get this sorted for now. I have been in contact with the ACRES section in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on a daily basis for weeks and months now. Several thousand farmers in County Mayo and in other counties are still without payment. My question for the Minister is this: when will all of the payments be made for the outstanding ACRES payments that are needed?

What is going on? We cannot understand what is going on. To say there is a computer glitch is okay for a day or two but to use the problem of a computer glitch for months on end, while people are not getting paid, is not acceptable. I am hoping that the Minister will have some straight answers for us today. Farmers are left in limbo as they wait to find out whether they are getting an additional payment or a bill for their 2023 participation in the ACRES scheme. I do not think my time is up.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan)

The Deputy has another two minutes, or four minutes in total.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

That is okay. We probably need four hours or four months on ACRES. Throughout last year, the processing of 3,000 outstanding cases for the 2023 payments was moving very slowly. After the general election was called, the then Minister insisted that ACRES payments were on track for a late November payment. On 5 September, it was suggested on the website of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine that 95% of farmers could expect to be paid their ACRES balancing payments by the end of September. That did not happen. Those payments were set aside. A payment run was done for tranche 1, comprising those who joined in 2023. Just 60% of those received a payment for 2024. We can add to the mix around 9,000 farmers who joined tranche 2 of ACRES in 2024, one third of whom have yet to be paid.

The other problem is that if you have a query in relation to your file, you cannot ring the ACRES section. Instead, you have to email that section. This is usually replied to with a generic email which states that the Department is processing payments and will be in touch in due course. This is not good enough. Unlike other schemes like the basic income support for sustainability, BISS, scheme and the areas of natural constraint, ANC, scheme, farm advisers do not have access to ACRES payments. They do not have this with ACRES. They have no access to payments or issues relating to files. Why is this the case? This has to be changed immediately. They must have access to what is going on.

I need to know today that all outstanding payments for 2023 and 2024 will be made immediately because these funds are badly needed for each farm household. The Department upholds a very rigid set of deadlines that farmers have to adhere to or penalties will issue. However, there is no issue with the Department missing deadline after deadline when it comes to the processing and payment of ACRES payments.

The Department needs to be more proactive in contacting farmers. There always seems to be a technical issue on the other side. The farmer and the adviser are left in limbo wondering if it is something on their side, but more often than not it is not something on their side; it is something to do with this famous glitch. We have to sort out what this glitch is. This is landing on his table now because farmers' confidence in ACRES is absolutely on the floor as we speak.

Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Martin Heydon)

I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh for raising a really important issue. I thank her for her good wishes at the start. This is a topic that is a real bugbear for farmers. If they are caught in this, the frustration is palpable. I will go through the detail on this in a minute. Before I do so, I want to respond to the Deputy's point about the frustration with the overall scheme, especially the frustrations of those who have got caught up in the complexity of the system. I understand the significant challenges for those who have not got that clarity or do not have the full payment in that space. If farmers have not had clear communication, that too is frustrating. Farmers are a resilient bunch. We can deal with anything as business people if we know what we are dealing with, if we know the timelines and if we know the impediments. That communication has got to be very clear. We must clearly communicate where the impediment is. In some instances, the impact is on the farmers' side. There are issues around probate or different elements around title. We will work with them on that. What I am looking to do at the minute is get a full detailed brief on exactly how many farmers are in that space and how many are in the space where the issue is on the Department's side. Where the impediment is on our side, if extra resources are needed I am very clear that they will be found and we will do everything we can - we will move might and main - to get this addressed as quickly as possible.

As the House is aware, ACRES is the flagship agri-environment and climate measure under Ireland's CAP strategic plan 2023-27, with €1.5 billion allocated to the scheme over its duration. The design of the scheme was informed by lessons learned through the green low-carbon agri-environment scheme, GLAS, the results-based environment-agri pilot project, REAP, and experience gained in locally led projects undertaken under the European innovation partnerships. ACRES has been a big change in our approach to agri-environmental schemes. It was and is a very ambitious scheme. It involves scaling up the results-based approach to national level. The level of payment is determined by the score assigned to the land. The higher the quality of the habitat, the higher the resulting payment. There are two approaches within the scheme. As the Deputy will be aware, an ACRES co-operation approach is available in eight zones which have high nature value and an ACRES general approach is available nationally outside those eight zones. In response to the high level of interest in participating in ACRES, it was decided that all valid applications for the scheme would be accepted, the outcome of which is that there are now 54,300 farmers in ACRES. The roll-out of the scheme from October 2022 and the commencement of contracts from January 2023 necessitated the development of an extensive new IT functionality and the upskilling of advisers in relation to the assessment and scoring of lands.

The scheme is also linked to several IT systems within my Department. For example, claims for payment under ACRES are submitted through BISS, while scores from the assessment of lands are submitted on the Department’s generic land management system. The development of these platforms had to coincide with the roll-out of the scheme. There is significant work involved in the verification of claims and in the calculation and issuing of payments to more than 54,000 participants. Most of these applications consist of a number of actions, or there may be a number of different habitats to be assessed, and multiple scorecards to be completed and submitted.

Payments have been finalised to 94% of ACRES tranche 1 participants in respect of their participation in the scheme in 2023, to a total value of €247.1 million. Balancing payments in respect of 2023 remain to be made to approximately 2,700 farmers. Certain issues such as transfer of contracts, alignment with BISS and issues with scorecards have contributed to delay in making some of those payments. Work is ongoing to resolve these issues and every effort is being made to process outstanding payments as quickly as possible.

It is important to point out that interim payments of €4,000 and €5,000, amounting to almost €120 million, were paid in February and March 2024 to 25,000 ACRES participants who had not at that point received an advance payment for their participation in 2023. I can touch on this further in my supplementary response.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

The Minister is aware that issues - I refer to probate or other matters - are normally sorted out by the planner, or by the farmer having access to talk to somebody in the Department who can explain why this parcel received a certain designation, or what is happening in relation to it.

When one cannot talk to anybody, though, it cannot be sorted out, and therein lies the problem. Untold damage is being done in the relationship between the Government and the Department and farmers and in bringing farmers on board in terms of climate change, biodiversity and everything we need to do. That is why this is so urgent, never mind the fact that we are in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis.

All of these farmers in Mayo who are in ACRES will also have had sheds damaged, fodder damage and lines down. I have an email from somebody trying to get hold of Eir to get CCTV calving cameras systems sorted and so on. There is major hardship for farmers at this time of year between the cost of living, not having enough payments and not knowing when they are going to get paid. This has to be sorted out. Is the Minister putting in place a grant to replace sheds for people who have had severe damage? It would be important for restoring confidence and faith, and farmers would know what to expect, if the grant was at least put in place fairly quickly.

I am aware of the fishing sector and the damage done to the fishing industry. I cannot converse with the Minister here today without raising that with him also.

I ask the Minister to please get ACRES sorted and tell me when all of these farmers will be paid their full entitlement, which is what they were promised and they signed up to. Otherwise, there will be other schemes that farmers will just completely turn their backs on.

Deputy Martin Heydon

The Deputy has raised a number of different issues. I have been over in the west of Ireland meeting a number of farmers affected by the storm. Many of the farmers we are discussing in terms of ACRES have been impacted by the storm in a range of ways. We stand ready to support them. Initially, we are getting their power and water back but I am conscious that this debate was about ACRES and I want to give clarity on the record in that regard.

The year 2023 was a challenging for this brand-new system, which was ambitious and had a level of complexity that previous agri-environmental schemes did not. We have to manage those complexities and challenges, and we made €4,000 and €5,000 interim payments, amounting to almost €120 million, to farmers last year to make up for that fact. The vast majority of farmers did get a payment in that space. We are now working through the final calculation for the 2,700 farmers who are outstanding as to exactly what amount they are due. For those who require a top-up payment, that will be pursued. We are dealing with processing of those balancing payments now on a case-by-case basis. These are some of the more complex issues.

Regarding the Deputy's point about issues around probate and title deeds, talking to an official in the Department of agriculture can sort that out. I agree that we need clear communication. Farmers require that. The very officials who are working through these detailed and complex cases are the same ones who spend all of that time on the phone as well. Where there is a probate or title deed issue, it is dealt with by the Land Registry, not the Department of agriculture. We must clearly communicate so that, where there is a title deed issue, farmers know what steps they can take. I will make a commitment: if a large number of them are impacted in a similar way, I will use my office to talk to the Land Registry and others to see how we can move their cases along.

Ultimately, I take on board the frustration of farmers impacted by this. The year 2024 saw a significant improvement in processing through the issues and getting on top of those that were highlighted in 2023. Some 75% of ACRES advance payments were made in 2024, which is a reflection of the fact that progress has been made in the delivery of the required IT systems. There is more to be done and I will continue to work on that. It is a major priority for me to resolve this issue for the very reason the Deputy outlined, namely, achieving the confidence that is needed in this agri-environmental scheme, which so many farmers wanted to sign up for. I am proud of the fact that we were able to facilitate all of those farmers being able to access it. Now we want to ensure that those who have outstanding payments or issues are dealt with as quickly as possible.

Water Supply

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an gCeann Comhairle, an Teachta Ó Murchú for choosing my Topical Issue. I wish the Minister of State well in her new role, together with my good wishes to all of the Ministers who have been appointed, and I look forward to working constructively with them. However, there has to be a change in the practice of Ministers not coming to the Chamber to take Topical Issue debates. I met the Minister of State in the canteen and she told me that she was taking this Topical Issue. That is fine but this practice has crept in and it is unfair to Deputies. We expect to have the Ministers present to deal with issues so that they can get an understanding of them. It is not good enough, and I hope the practice changes in this Dáil.

Uisce Éireann is working on a €20 million project to move sections of Clonmel water consumers onto a different source. One might ask what is the big deal. The so-called solution includes upgrades to the water treatment plant at Monroe, improvement for a pumping station and a 15 km pipe that will see hard water, uisce crua, being brought into all parts of Clonmel. This is very hard water with lime in it. Currently, water for the whole heart of the town is coming from a Poulavanogue supply in Contae Phort Láirge, in Waterford, up the hill, which is gravity flow. It is a wonderful plant that has been working for 200 years or more. There is a reservoir at Ragwell that is lying idle now that used to provide a backup supply for the centre of the town. Uisce Éireann wants to stop all of that natural supply, which is supplying the businesses and households in the town, and to bring in water from Monroe 15 km away, which depends on a borehole and a pump. I understand that there have been two or three outages this week and that Uisce Éireann cannot explain why the well stopped. Sure, wells will stop. Anybody who has a house knows that wells will go dry and will stop in storms. Without electricity, wells are out. This new service will disconnect the gravity flow into the town. It is nothing short of insanity.

With regard to the hard water, the chamber of commerce has expressed great concerns about the cost. Remember that all of the business people in Clonmel and everywhere else pay for their water, paying quite dearly for water in and water out. They expect to have water that is not going to destroy all of their equipment, much of which is high-spec equipment in cafeterias, hotels and other such premises. The same applies to householders. Already, the people north of the bypass in Clonmel are on hard water, have significant problems and face the cost implications of having to put in softeners and replace salts. Uisce Éireann will not even entertain the idea of putting in a big softener at source. We are begging it to leave the water supply alone. Why would one cut off one's nose to spite one's face and cut off a supply that is working? It is saying that it is because of the standard of water, but it has always been of a high standard and high quality. I salute Eugene Dargan, Mr. Hartigan before him and all the other caretakers who have looked after it. It was built by hand. It is a fabulously crafted reservoir - built by the British army, I am sure - and it has stood the test of time. Now we are giving the whole town this hard water and depending on a borehole that will undoubtedly run dry, given the unexplained outages this week.

Business people have sat down with Uisce Éireann. The manager of the Clonmel Park Hotel, Richard Gleeson of Gleeson's Pub and Nuala Hickey of Hickey's Bakery, which are long-established businesses, do not want this to happen because it will wreck and cause havoc to their equipment. Who will support them? They are already struggling businesses without having this mad, so-called solution. It is not a solution. Uisce Éireann has caused major disruptions all over the town in preparatory works to bring this new supply in, what with the digging up, changing and directing. It is going to be bedlam for businesses and households. It is not acceptable to have a company like Uisce Éireann, which is answerable and accountable to nobody. That is why I wanted the Minister here today. I appeal to the Minister to bring Uisce Éireann in and to have somebody talk to it about the nonsense that is being carried on.

Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform (Deputy Emer Higgins)

I thank the Deputy and I congratulate him for his successful re-election to Dáil Éireann. As he alluded, I am taking this Topical Issue on behalf of the relevant Minister, Deputy Browne, and the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins. I am happy to pass on the Deputy's feedback in terms of what he has just said about Uisce Éireann and his ask of that company.

The supply of public water and the provision of water services, as acknowledged by the Deputy, are matters for Uisce Éireann. Uisce Éireann has statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services - planning, delivery and operation - at national, regional and local levels. Under section 7 of the Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013, no Minister has a function regarding Uisce Éireann’s specific operations, as the Deputy said. To be helpful, however, the relevant Minister and I have made inquiries to Uisce Éireann on the Deputy's behalf and the company has confirmed that it is committed to delivering safe and secure drinking water supplies for customers, and that this requires it to comply with all Irish and European Union standards relating to drinking water, in particular, the European Union (Drinking Water) Regulations.

I have been informed that the water supplied from the Monroe water treatment plant is harder than the Poulavanogue treatment plant.

However, the improvement in water quality and the importance of protecting public health strongly offset any inconvenience which may result from a change in water hardness.

Uisce Éireann has advised that hard water contains high levels of natural minerals that have come from rock and soil and it is very common in Ireland’s drinking supply. Hard water does not pose any public health risk and meets the drinking water regulations. Depending on the local geology, the hardness of the water supply will vary, but such water is perfectly safe to drink. Further information on hard water and advice on how to manage it - the Deputy raised a number of concerns of businesses, in particular - is available on the Uisce Éireann website.

Uisce Éireann has a strong customer service focus through its water charges plan and customer charter, which outlines the standard of service customers should expect to receive. The water charges plan sets out a comprehensive mechanism in cases where water quality is compromised and unfit for human consumption, such as when boil water and drinking water restriction notices apply. However, the message is that this water is absolutely safe. Business customers, as the Deputy said, pay water charges and those who do so are entitled to a rebate under the customer handbook, as agreed with the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, in instances where the water is unsafe. However, the implementation of the plan is a matter for Uisce Éireann. Any issues which cannot be resolved by Uisce Éireann can be referred to the CRU.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I never suggested that the water in Monroe treatment plant was in any way unsafe. My office in Clonmel is on the Poulavanogue supply, the soft water. I think I look healthy enough. The water is perfect. It is State vandalism to dismantle a perfect scheme. It is a backup and it is being dismantled altogether. The pump supply had an outage this week. Clonmel was without water for nearly 50 days last year, maybe more. It is continually being interrupted. We have the Glenary supply, which I know well, the Poulavanogue supply and the Monroe treatment plant. The well will not last. Any household knows that wells run out and the source might go down. The failure of Irish Water to give answers about why the well stopped functioning a number of times in the past week is very worrying.

The Minister of State referred to the website and everything else. It is lovely on paper but it is not functioning. Irish Water is not functioning as a utilities company and the sooner it is stood down, the better. No one from Irish Water will engage and those who will do not know what you are talking about. It does not want to take experience from retiring personnel who have offered to show people where all the connections and valves are. Irish Water knows everything, yet it knows nothing. There are none so blind as those who cannot see at all. The businesspeople and householders in the greater part of old Clonmel will not accept this because it will cost them a fortune. It will damage all their machines, including high-spec machines for catering, washing and everything. It is utter madness to destroy an old functioning water supply that has supplied Clonmel for hundreds of years, and this all in the name of modernisation.

The standards that have been set are too high. That is the problem. The reservoirs are tripping out because it is all computerised and the standards have been set too high. They need to be examined by the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA. We need common sense to prevail. We need to keep the soft water and we do not need to destroy a perfectly functioning source that continues to supply the greater part of the town of Clonmel, the heart of Clonmel town.

Deputy Emer Higgins

The Deputy is right that we need to invest in our water supply. That is crucial and the examples he gave of water shortages and outages really reinforce that. Our water and wastewater systems require substantial and sustained investment over a number of investment cycles to bring them up to the quality and resilience standards required of a modern service, to provide for population growth and to build resilience in the face of climate change. The Department of local government secured record investment for water services for Uisce Éireann in the period 2021 to 2025, with commitments of almost €6 billion in capital investment, of which more than €4.5 billion will be voted Exchequer funding for domestic water services. This commitment is also reflected in this year's budget, with the Department securing record funding of more than €2.2 billion, including €514 million in terms of the billion equity investment. That is all about giving Uisce Éireann the ability and the investment to be able to meet the cost of delivering water services this year.

It is important for the Deputy's constituents in Clonmel to know that this overall investment will deliver significant improvements in our public water and wastewater services.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

And the well will run dry.

Deputy Emer Higgins

It will support improved water supplies across Ireland, including in Tipperary and rural Ireland, and it will support a range of programmes delivering improved water services in our rivers, lakes and marine areas. It will make a significant contribution to addressing Ireland's needs. Uisce Éireann, as we both acknowledged, has a dedicated team to deal with representations and I will provide the Deputy's feedback to the two relevant Ministers. I hope he will engage with them on the matter to outline the concerns of his constituents, including the businesspeople in his area.

Water Quality

Deputy Thomas Gould

I am disappointed that the Minister, Deputy James Browne, is not here today. This is a serious issue. If I had known in advance, I might have postponed the question until next week when he would be here to answer it. It is about a serious public health matter in Cork and the senior Minister should be here to provide answers or I should have been notified he would not be here.

For two years, the communities in my constituency have been plagued with dirty, filthy water. Sludge, muck, dirt, rust and high and unsafe levels of manganese in the water have been coming through people's taps. This is because, two years ago, Uisce Éireann spent €40 million on a new water treatment plant - €40 million. The water is worse now than it was before that. That has led to Uisce Éireann bringing in a private contractor. It did not use the local council staff who are contracted. The whole issue of privatisation means that it brought in a private contractor that put caustic soda into the pipes which stripped the lining of 300 km of cast iron pipe, releasing rust, dirt and filth that was there for years and that is what is running into people's drinking water.

I have raised this with Uisce Éireann. This is a serious public health matter. I raised it with the HSE and the EPA. This week, I got test results which prove everything I have been saying for the past two years. Last week, RTÉ's "Prime Time" covered the issue and that programme also proved that the water in Cork is not fit for consumption. Zara King of Virgin Media covered it on that station's news broadcast. It has been covered in the national newspapers and local newspapers and on local radio stations. If this was happening in Dublin, an emergency would be called and a special team put in place, but because it is in Cork - the northside of Cork - we are putting up with it.

To give the Minister of State a feel for it, from 28 August to 25 November, in the Dillon's Cross area of Cork city, 11 tests were done of which four showed the water to be unsafe. In the Gardiner's Hill area, 19 tests were done, of which eight showed unsafe water. In the Thomas Davis Bridge area, eight of 21 tests showed the water to be unsafe. In Gurranabraher, three of 12 tests showed unsafe water and, on 14 October, manganese levels in Gurranabraher were 90 mg per litre. The HSE says it should not be above 50 mg. The World Health Organization, WHO, says that anything above 80 mg is a public health issue. No further test was done in Gurranabraher for three weeks, so, potentially, the people of Gurranabraher were drinking unsafe water for three weeks. There was no public health notification, no advertisement. No one was told about it.

We are now seeing potentially unsafe drinking water being given. I will tell the Minister of State what this means. Children who are given this water over a prolonged period have serious issues relating to neurological delays and reproductive maturity. It is not Sinn Féin who says this. This is what the WHO says. I firmly believe Uisce Éireann is trying to bury this. It does not want to admit that half of the second city in the State has unsafe drinking water because of the consequences of such a scandal and the costs that would be incurred in supplying drinking water to half of Cork city. The HSE and the EPA are doing a Pontius Pilate, washing their hands of it. I have serious concerns. I will write to them to get them in front of the housing committee to explain why they are not acting. The consequences of manganese poisoning are long term and permanent.

What we have here shown in red - I will send the Minister of State a copy of this - are the ones that are over 50 mg per litre. Some of them are 128, 186 or 131 mg per litre. This is dangerous drinking water that the people of the north side of Cork city are being forced to drink.

Deputy Emer Higgins

At the outset I congratulate Deputy Gould on his successful re-election to Dáil Éireann. I thank him for raising this really important issue. As the Deputy has alluded to, I am taking this Topical Issue on behalf of the relevant Minister, who cannot be here today but has provided me with quite a lot of briefing material on this. That is because it is a hugely important issue. The issue of safe drinking water has both national and local importance, and I fully appreciate the Deputy's concerns for communities affected. I know the Deputy will appreciate that the operation of the public water supply, together with the operational issues locally, are matters for Uisce Éireann and it has the statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services, which includes water services delivery, planning and operation at national, regional and local levels. In turn, the EPA, as the environmental regulator, is responsible for setting quality standards and enforcing compliance with the EU directives the Deputy mentioned in his contribution, and with national regulations for the provision of drinking water.

I served with the Deputy on the housing and local government Oireachtas committee in the previous term, and it is a very good suggestion he has made that the EPA would come before that committee to discuss this in more detail with him. I understand from inquiries made that Uisce Éireann remains committed to addressing instances of water discolouration for affected customers in Cork city. It wishes to assure householders and businesses that its dedicated task force is taking all possible measures to minimise discolouration and to address the underlying issues right across the city. It continues to advise customers not to drink discoloured water and to contact it directly with any reports of discolouration to help it manage the response in real time and to prioritise reactive works.

To protect public health, Uisce Éireann is undertaking extensive sampling, including testing at customers' taps and at networks and operational sampling in the water treatment plant, and the Deputy has outlined some of those test results. As he knows, manganese is a naturally occurring metal found in many soils, lakes and rivers. While a small amount of manganese is actually good for human health, the HSE and the WHO advise that exposure to high manganese levels on an ongoing basis in drinking water can be a risk to health. All exceedances are, therefore, as standard, notified to the EPA and the HSE.

In old cast-iron mains, which account for half of the 600 km water main network across Cork city - the 300 km the Deputy has referred to - sediment can become dislodged and can occasionally be carried through to customers' taps, leading to discoloured water. This sediment can include manganese build-up, and the flushing of pipes will typically lead to the water running clear again. Following a notified exceedance of manganese at a customer tap, which is normally isolated to that network, Uisce Éireann commences an investigation and typically undertakes reactive flushing works.

All infrastructure at the plant complies with global and national water treatment standards. Uisce Éireann is also progressing an additional investment in a new process at the Lee Road water treatment plant to minimise the impact of treated water, and to minimise the impact that treated water has on the old cast-iron watermain network in the city, to which the Deputy referred. This investment is a new conditioning system and it remains on schedule for installation and commissioning by the middle of this year. This will be delivered as part of the ongoing series of task force initiatives by Uisce Éireann to address water discolouration in Cork city and any impacts it has on constituents the Deputy has referred to.

Deputy Thomas Gould

This bottle I am holding contains what we are drinking in Cork. It is yellow. The thing about this is that if you boil it, the cast iron, the dirt and the manganese are still in it. People are boiling the water at home thinking they are doing the right thing but instead all they are doing is drinking dirty water. Does the Minister of State think the people of Dublin would accept this? Why should the people of Cork North-Central accept it? Does she think the people of Dublin would accept dirty water or manganese levels that are unfit for human consumption? It is not me saying it. This is what these test results are saying.

The response here today - I know it is not the Minister of State's response; she was reading it out - is absolutely pathetic. With regard to the Department and Irish Water-Uisce Éireann sending this in, who are they codding? Do they think we are fools in Cork? It says here that the Minister has no responsibility. If Irish Water is poisoning the people of Cork, it is the Minister's responsibility.

It says here that the EPA is the regulator responsible for setting high quality standards. The EPA does not want to know about it. It is turning a blind eye. We have been trying to contact it and it wants to know nothing about it, and it is the same with the HSE. People in Cork have contacted me to say they are suffering with migraines and have had problems. One family contacted me and said that in hindsight, when they looked back, it was probably the drinking water that made the family sick but they did not know at the time about high manganese levels and the effects they have on people.

Uisce Éireann has told the Minister of State that where the water runs clear, it is safe to drink. It is not. We have the figures here. When the water is tested and it is not fit for human conscription, why is a notice not put out to the public saying not to drink the water in this area as it is not fit to drink? I need answers. The people of Cork need answers. This would not be acceptable anywhere.

I want the senior Minister to come to Cork and see whether he, his family or this Government would drink this water. We are not going to drink it anymore. People are paying €20 and €30 a week-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan)

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I will finish with this. People with children and babies have to buy bottled water. The people at risk here are people who are blind or have sight issues, as well as older people, who are drinking this water because they do not have the money to buy bottled water.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the Deputy. To be clear, the message from both the EPA and the HSE is not to drink discoloured water, and to report it to the EPA. I take on board the Deputy's feedback that the EPA and the HSE are not doing enough in that regard, and not doing enough to interact with the public in that regard too. I will absolutely pass that on to the Minister, Deputy Browne, and ask him to act on that.

Our water and wastewater infrastructure requires substantial and sustained investment. That is clear. It requires it over a number of investment cycles to bring the systems up to the standards required of a modern service, to provide for population growth, to build resilience in the face of climate change and to make sure the Deputy's constituents have access from their taps to water they can drink.

Uisce Éireann's capital investment plan for water and wastewater infrastructure is funded on a multiannual basis. There will be record levels of investment in water services by Uisce Éireann in the period 2021 until now, with commitments of over €6 billion in capital investment, of which over €4.5 billion will be voted Exchequer funding for domestic water services for the domestic customers the Deputy is speaking about today. This commitment is reflected in budget 2025, with the Department securing record funding of over €2.7 billion for Uisce Éireann to meet the cost of delivering water services this year. This overall investment will deliver significant improvements in public water and wastewater services across Ireland, including in Cork. It will support improved water supplies in rural Ireland too, and a range of programmes delivering improved water quality in our rivers, lakes and marine areas.

I take on board the valid concerns the Deputy is raising on behalf of his constituents. I will absolutely pass it on to the Minister, Deputy Browne, and it is really important that the EPA, HSE and Uisce Éireann are engaging with all representatives from Cork as we work through this issue.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar fionraí ar 11.48 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 12 meán lae.

Sitting suspended at 11.48 a.m. and resumed at 12 noon.