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Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Apr 2015

Nexus Phase

AIB - Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I now propose that, as we have a quorum, the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis will now go into public session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We commence this morning's proceedings, session 1, public hearing, and a discussion with Mr. Dermot Gleeson, former chairman of Allied Irish Banks. In doing so, I would like to welcome everyone to the 20th public hearing of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis and this morning we will hear from Mr. Dermot Gleeson, former chairman of Allied Irish Banks. Mr. Gleeson was a leading barrister and senior counsel in Ireland in the 1980s and 1990s before he became a senior Government adviser and then a businessman. He served as Attorney General of Ireland in the Government of Taoiseach John Bruton. In 2003, Mr. Gleeson was appointed chairman of Allied Irish Banks. Mr. Gleeson, you are very welcome before the inquiry this morning.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Thank you, Chairman.

Before I hear from the witness, I just wish to advise the witness that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If you are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. I would remind Members and those present that there are currently criminal proceedings ongoing and further criminal proceedings are scheduled during the lifetime of the inquiry, which overlap with the subject matter of the inquiry. Therefore, the utmost caution should be taken not to prejudice those proceedings.

Members of the public are reminded that photography is prohibited in the committee room and to assist the smooth running of the inquiry, we will display certain documents in the screens here in the committee room. For those sitting in the Gallery, these documents will be displayed on a screen to your left and members of the public and journalists are reminded that these documents are confidential and not for publication, but will be displayed to assist the proceedings as they take place over the coming weeks.

The witness has been directed to attend this meeting of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis. You have been furnished with booklets of core documents, these are part of ... these are before the committee which will be relied upon in questioning and form part of the evidence of the inquiry. So if I can now, before we commence proceedings, ask the clerk to administer the oath of affirmation to Mr. Gleeson?

The following witness was sworn in by the Clerk to the Committee:
Mr. Dermot Gleeson, former Chairman, AIB.

Thank you Mr. Gleeson, so if I can ask you to make your opening remarks to the committee please.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Thank you Chairman.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I have furnished a written statement to the committee in accordance with its request to me. It may be of assistance to the committee if I say at the outset that so far as the macro story is concerned, without agreeing with every conclusion or every detail, in general I accept the broad thrust of the official reports prepared by Messrs Honohan, Regling and Watson and Nyberg, as well as the views ... most of the views anyway put forward by Dr. Donal Donovan and Professor Anton Murphy.

Irish banks, by and large, avoided the mistakes that wrought havoc in the balance sheets of American, continental European and British banks where credit derivatives and CDOs did the damage. Unfortunately, Irish banks made mistakes of their own, principally by excessive lending for residential and commercial development and these mistakes became exposed at the same time as international money markets shut up shop in September 2008.

AIB lent too much to individual developers, put too much faith in cross-collateralisation, too much faith in the large net worth of individual developers. We didn't do enough syndication or selling down of loans and, in addition, we relied excessively on risk models that proved inadequate to the cataclysmic events of '09 ... '08 and '09.

On 5 March last, the Minister for Finance and the current CEO of AIB, Mr. Duffy, made the very welcome announcement that AIB is on course to repay the total investment made by the State in the bank.

The great recession of 2008, the worst the world had seen for 80 years, didn't start in Ireland or in the Irish banks, but there's no doubt that there were decisions made in AIB which made things worse than they need have been for citizens, for employees and for shareholders. I wish to express my sincere regret for my part in those events, and to renew the apology which I made at the AIB AGM in 2009.

In analysing what went wrong at AIB, I should point out that I resigned from the board in June 2009 and my perspective is, therefore, largely limited to information that became available before my departure - I haven't worked there for the last six years - and may to that extent, be incomplete.

A country's banking system has been described as the nervous system of the economy, and in that sense the largest indigenous bank was never going to separate itself from the dominant economic activity of the society in which it functioned. In the years leading up to 2008, a principal engine of economic growth in Ireland was property and construction. It created a lot of jobs in connected trades and professions, paid lots of taxes, was encouraged by the State and the banks were fully involved in it. Quite apart from the tax incentives that I know the Committee has heard a lot about in relation to property, local-----

Can I interrupt, Chairman? Have we got this statement?

Where is it? Is this the statement that you have provided?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, this is my oral statement, the statement I have provided-----

And have we a copy, no?

Are you drawing from the opening statement?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I am drawing from the opening statement. You asked me to shorten it and I did. I am surprised ... it is not my intention to do anything other than-----

Please continue Mr. Gleeson.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Apart from the tax incentives in property and construction that you have heard a good bit about I know already in the committee. Local authorities collected over €3 billion through development contributions imposed as part of planning permissions between '99 and 2008.

It's perfectly clear in retrospect that the appetite for risk was excessive and the lending strategy of AIB in respect of property was too expansive. That's not actually how it appeared at the time. In 2007, for instance, there was a strong national consensus widely confirmed by international commentators that Ireland was on a track of rapid sustainable expansion and development, and a good example is provided by the statements made at the launch of the national development plan in 2007. Just one detail from it: it was planned to spend €70 million a day every day for seven years on infrastructure with full employment, net inward migration, low debt-to-GDP ratio, budget surplus and buoyant tax revenue, and lots of civil servants were about to move out of Dublin. Martin Wolf, who has been described as the most respected financial columnist, expressed the view in June 2007 that the possibility of huge calamities being generated by financial markets looked remote. The IMF, in its financial stability report in 2006, expressed the view that risk dispersion as now organised in banks was less - made banking failures less likely. And of course, the reverse turned out to be the case.

In viewings with the benefit of hindsight, looking back now, it seems to me that a great deal of the issue in Ireland comes back to the question of whether at a certain stage a correction that was coming was going to arrive in the form of a so-called soft or hard landing. I think that's central to the errors. The OECD, the EU, the IMF, the ECB, the Central Bank, the Department of Finance, the ESRI, the great majority of published economists in Ireland and abroad, although not all, the risk section of AIB and the board of AIB all favoured the consensus of the soft landing and the consensus, of course, was entirely wrong.

There's a striking example or expression, I suppose, of this consensus comes from the OECD report published on Irish banks in April 2008. And I think the date is important because most of the loans ... nearly all the loans would have been made by then. And the OECD said, having looked at the Irish banks, the Irish banks were profitable and well-capitalised and provide a buffer against a future downturn. It's easy and certainly tempting to dismiss everything that went on in 2007 as irrational exuberance, but I actually think that there were - although this is not a popular thing to say - some policies, some justifications for the policy at the time, some rational justifications, and I want to briefly mention three of them. The first was the calculated demand for housing in Ireland, the second was the reassuring effect of Basel II, as it's called, and the third was reliance on risk modelling in banks.

There was hard statistical information which indicated that Ireland needed more housing. One of the things AIB did was get independent economists to come and talk to the board every year or so, and a distinguished independent economist in the middle of 2007 brought a paper to the board, which pointed out that of a selected group of European countries, Poland was below us, but Ireland was next lowest on the list in terms of dwellings per 1,000 citizens. Poland was 330 about, and we were about 370. And then Estonia, Holland, UK, were all well above us, and Denmark, France, Germany, Portugal and Spain were all over 100 dwellings per 1,000 citizens ahead of us. They were all over 470; we were at 370.

The second feature is Ireland has, as you're undoubtedly aware, a very unusual demographic history in the last century. The peak birth rate in most western European countries was in the '60s; people stopped having large families. The peak year in Ireland is 1980, so there were large groups of children born in the late 70s and early 80s and the 1980 crop will be 35 this year. So there's the feeling that there was this group of citizens coming into the ... what I would call the house purchasing age, and we took that on board. Those are the two things I want to say about housing demand, and I suppose the fact that there is now emerging something of a housing shortage in Dublin, certainly in some urban areas, suggests that this wasn't entirely irrational.

I don't want to say much about Basel II; it was promoted with banks by the Bank for International Settlements in Zurich, reinforced by the CRD, the Capital Requirements Directive. Its purpose was to ensure that banks had adequate capital. We bought into it heavily and expensively, €200 million between engaging experts and consultants and installing the systems in AIB.

It went live at the start of 2008 and frankly it wasn't much good to us when the trouble came. Part of Basel, a large part of Basel is to do with mathematical risk modelling, I remember we had to hire maths PhDs and so on to help us with this. There was a fraud in the American operation of AIB in 2002, a man called Rusnak stole a lot of money, and immediately after that, every regulator from Washington to Warsaw crawled over AIB and, we got the services in conjunction with the Irish regulator, of a man called Gene Ludwig, who had been a bank supervisor in the States and he investigated us up and down. One of his recommendations was that we needed to set up a world-class risk management system and that we needed a world-class player to head it up and we duly engaged undoubtedly distinguished and experienced risk specialists from JP Morgan in New York at a very high salary. I think ultimately 200 people came into the risk section. At the same time, on foot of the same recommendations, we got a group internal auditor from outside Irish banking, the individual in question had been director of audit for risk and finance in Barclays Bank, then gone to work for the Italian regulator for a short while and then was engaged by AIB. A third initiative at the time that I was involved in, was setting up a whistleblowing system. There's a not-for-profit in the United Kingdom called Public Concern at Work, and it will act as a facilitator, and this was published to staff; they could ring up there and their messages would come only to my office and they could preserve their anonymity if they wanted to.

Stress testing was done, installed, and in April '07 we had a stress test that looked at what would happen if things went wrong. There were two stresses: a plausible stress and an extreme shock test. The extreme shock test wrote down, for instance, unzoned land by about 60%, wrote down residential by 30% and I have the various figures if you need them ... but it went for a one in 25 year downturn and of course that wasn't enough. The stress test just didn't avail when we got a one in 100 year event. We didn't pay sufficient attention to the fact that the stress machinery didn't cater for that event and there was what I'd call an intellectual failure, for which I have to take my part of the blame, to envisage that if there was a serious property downturn in Ireland, a really serious one, and if at the same time there was a worldwide contraction of demand so that Irish businesses started doing badly, you started having unemployment and redundancy ... and at the same time as those two things, that the wholesale money markets closed up that we'd have a very serious crisis on our hands. When Lehman's failed on 15 September 2008, that in effect is what happened.

I want to say something briefly Chairman, if I can, about 2009 and what it was like. Now it's painful, it's not long ago but it's possible, in the collapsing of the historical perspective, to forget just how bad things got say from the December of 2008. In the autumn of 2008, the Department of Finance had estimated tax revenue for 2009 at €43 billion and the outturn was €33 billion. They'd also estimated the contraction in GDP in Ireland at 1%, a 1% drop in GDP, and the outturn was 11.3% for 2009, ten times worse than the prediction. In December 2008, a range of international banks were, this was unheard of before, downgraded. That included Deutsche Bank, Barclays, Credit Suisse, Citigroup, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley. Anglo was nationalised in January 2009 and just as an indicator of how the general population felt, how public confidence had just gone at that stage, new car registrations in January '09 were 65% down on the previous year. Irish banks were downgraded in February by Fitch and then in the spring, AIB and Bank of Ireland had to get help from the Government on capitalisation.

Now you can ask the question why did everyone get it so wrong? I think it's very hard to get it right, that economic forecasting is less reliable and more complicated than people think. Credit has to be given to Professor Morgan Kelly, he detected the bubble but even he said he thought the downswing in prices in real terms would take eight or nine years. He also expressed the view that the Irish banks were well capitalised.

I'd like to say something briefly about the accounting standards that applied at the time. After the dotcom bubble, where accounting standards had given rise to alleged opacity in the accounts of public companies, IAS 39 was introduced.

It prevented banks, in very simple terms, doing what was called cross-cyclical provisioning: putting something away in the good years to save you the trouble in the bad years. It also had another effect. It insisted that certain parts of a bank book had to be marked to market, and I don't think the people who designed it ever envisioned there'd be a day when there wouldn't be a market. So you were now marking to market when there was no market and getting extraordinarily low values for assets. And there's ... the best description of this - which I think is a key dynamic of the crisis - the best description of this that I've found is in the so-called EU high level group chaired by Jacques de Larosière ... Mr. Nyberg was a member, Sir Callum McCarthy and the great and good of European financial regulation. It's a bit turgid but starting at paragraph 33, if I can read you into the record what they said. It is about five or six sentences, Chairman, if you'll indulge me:

Financial institutions understandably tried to dispose of assets once they realised that they had overstretched their leverage, thus lowering market prices for these assets. Regulatory requirements (accounting rules and capital requirements) helped trigger a negative feed-back loop amplified by major impacts in the credit markets ... Financial institutions, required to value their trading book according to mark-to-market principles, (which pushed up profits and reserves during the bull-run) were required to write down the assets in their balance sheet as markets deleveraged. Already excessively leveraged, they were required to either sell further assets to maintain capital levels, or to reduce their loan volume. "Fire sales" made by one financial institution in turn forced all ... financial institutions holding similar assets to mark the value of [those] assets down "to market" ... What was initially a liquidity problem rapidly, for a number of institutions, turned into a solvency problem.

I would like, Chairman, to say something now about the milieu in which Irish banks functioned before the crisis. Analysts and large shareholders, pension funds and stockbrokers were always interested in earnings per share and particularly where your earnings per share was going up as much as your peers. If you were going up as much as your peers that was fine but if you weren't, then your share price would drop and that meant your capacity to raise money would drop, your capacity to expand would drop, vulnerability to takeover would increase. Governor Honohan in his report in 2011 adverted to that dynamic. The other issue was Anglo being held up to us as an exemplar and you'll all be aware of that. Commentators in Ireland and abroad repeatedly said, "Anglo is the best bank. Why can't you be more like Anglo?" It was determined by one international consultancy to be the best bank of its size in the world. It was the darling not just of the Irish but of European stock exchanges generally. And I had customers saying, "Why can't you be like Anglo? Why are you always asking for more? Yourself and Bank of Ireland give slow responses and you ask for paperwork", and things like that. I think we tried in some way not to be drawn into the wake but inevitably we were, I think, in some respects. Professor Honohan described the effect of this sort of competition in a memorable statement before he was the Governor. He spoke to an economic conference in Dubrovnik in June 2009. This is what he said, "Competitive pressure on the leading banks to protect market share came especially from reckless expansion [from] one bank, Anglo-Irish whose market share among Irish controlled retail banks jumped from 3 per cent to 18 per cent in a decade".

Can I say something briefly then about the regulator? We had a perfectly professional relationship, mostly between executives and the Central Bank and the regulator. I would meet the head once or twice a year maybe. We invited the CEO and chairman of the regulator to come to an AIB board meeting and they accepted that invitation. I know there has been a lot of criticism of the regulator and that is not my business. I am wary of sporting analogies in a serious matter such as this but I did look at ... one of the witnesses I did get a chance to look at was Professor Alan Ahearne and he was in this room on 4 March. And he was asked by one of the members here what was needed at that time and he said what was needed was a more intrusive regulator - someone who behaved like a referee in a football match. And it strikes me, having reflected on it since, that that's apposite, that it's instructive ... that if you've a referee in a football match which is highly competitive - and Irish banking was enormously competitive at the time - and the referee does not blow the whistle much, then the more aggressive team tends to prosper and other people can get injured.

Just to say one more thing about the bubble. No bank could stop a bubble. If, through some amazing piece of insight or wisdom which we certainly didn't have, AIB had decided on some day during this period to close up for loans and say, "No more loans. We're not lending anymore", it would have damaged the bank at the time but not as much as the crash did. But, all of our customers who were claimants for loans would have been met within the following week by our competitors with glee, the competition was so fierce. So, the point I make is that no bank could stop a bubble inflating; only authorities can do that.

I will now turn to the night of the bank guarantee decision on 29 or 30 September 2008. The committee are in possession of three separate near contemporary records which I made of the events of that night. The main one is, of course, a seven page note, not perfect I'm afraid, but which I dictated a few days after the events of that night and which I've given to the committee. There is also much shorter paragraphs in a memo that I sent to the CA two days later just as a couple of paragraphs that recites my recollection of what went on at the night and also a letter of complaint to another chairman of another bank which has a couple of paragraphs again about my recollection of the night.

On Sunday, 28 September 2008 - this was a Sunday evening - AIB directors heard from the CEO at a board meeting at 6 o'clock that the word from the authorities was that two financial institutions in Ireland were likely to fail, the timescale was unknown and that a limited guarantee would be put in place for the remainder of the banks. I furnished you in my supplemental statement a quote from the AIB minute:

The purpose of the meeting of the 29th September which the representatives of AIB and Bank of Ireland requested with the Government was to discuss the dramatically deteriorating international situation, the apparently dire staits in which Anglo found itself and the possible repercussions of Anglo's imminent collapse for Bank of Ireland and AIB. We learned that Anglo could not open the next morning and had run out of liquidity. The banks expressed the view that Anglo and Irish Nationwide needed to be decisively dealt with in some way by the State and then [and I emphasise the "then"] for a guarantee to be provided for the remaining banks to protect the surviving banks against the turmoil which would inevitably follow from an Irish bank being either liquidated or nationalised.

The Governor of the Central Bank stated during the meeting, in the presence of the Government representatives, that it would be disorderly, or ... and I remember this expression, "or there could be a fumble if Anglo were dealt with mid-week", so what was needed, the Governor said, was for AIB and Bank of Ireland to try and provide €5 billion each in liquidity to support Anglo until the coming weekend.

Most of the evening was spent in efforts by Bank of Ireland and AIB to assemble enough liquidity to keep Anglo going until the weekend. That effort was successful and, by morning, €10 billion in liquidity, in excess of our own liquidity, half provided by Bank of Ireland and half by ourselves, had been assembled with its repayment within seven days guaranteed by the Government. I want to emphasise that AIB's representatives were not involved in discussing or the making of the decision that was ultimately made. The so-called "blanket guarantee" to include six banks, including Nationwide and Anglo, was not sought by or discussed with AIB. I make no complaint about that. I simply record the fact. The representatives of AIB and Bank of Ireland were not present in the room where the decision makers were for most of the evening, perfectly proper as well. I first learned that Anglo and Irish Nationwide had been guaranteed along with the other four banks from the media early the next morning. I acknowledge that the Government was faced with very difficult decisions on 29 September, which had to be made very urgently and I am not privy to the information or advice which was available to the Government on that evening. Two days after the guarantee, I sent a note to the CEO of AIB which included the following, and this perhaps is the most encapsulated confirmation of what I think went on:

Our name and reputation has been damaged by our perceived role in asking for the guarantee. We have maintained silence on the fact that what we asked for was that Anglo and Nationwide, what brought us all down, be taken out of the market and then for a guarantee to be put in place. What we did not ask for, and I underlined that in the original, was that Anglo and Nationwide should be boosted and baked into the system going forward.

The significance of the getting to the weekend, referred to by the Governor, is that at the weekend, the worldwide stock markets are closed for about two days, I think 51 hours, whereas during the week, worldwide stock markets are only closed at night for about three hours, between Japan ... between US closing and Japan opening. Just ... finally, Chairman, to say about other options, very briefly, during that week other options, Fortis was rescued by the governments of Luxembourg, Belgium and the Netherlands using ELA and I think that option was discussed briefly by Senator MacSharry with Professor Lane at this inquiry on 21 January.

Later that week, or maybe at the start of the following week, the Bank of England made a secret loan of Stg£63 billion to solve the allegedly critical liquidity issues at Halifax Bank of Scotland and RBS and that wasn't announced publicly until Mervyn King, the Governor of the Bank of England, said it to a Treasury select committee in November the following year. Since then, like many other countries, Ireland has enacted special legislation to deal with bank resolution, the Credit Institutions (Stabilisation) Act 2010 and the Central Bank and Credit Institutions (Resolution) Act 2011, and they obviously provide much more options for the sort of events that occurred on the that night. Those are my opening remarks, Chairman.

Thank you very much, Mr. Gleeson, and just to say your full statement will be published as part of the proceedings and that should be online some time this morning, and thank you very much for condensing that because that facilitates us in our proceedings this morning and I will be asking both members and yourself to be concise in the engagements today.

Mr. Gleeson, can you explain to the committee how AIB, which is a bank which has a history going back, I think to 1825, long before the foundation of the Irish State, a bank that was considered for ... over that period as a traditional conserving banking model, ended up during your period as chairperson being guaranteed by the Irish State and, ultimately, 99.8% owned by the Irish public?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, Chairman, I have tried to do something of that explanation in my opening remarks and I won't repeat what I said there but the bank was divided into five divisions. We had an operation in the United States, in Poland and in the UK and then in Ireland it was divided into what is called capital markets and then Republic of Ireland, which is what people would know as the traditional bank that you've described.

Four of those divisions, by and large, came through reasonably intact through the crisis. Republic of Ireland, unfortunately, became embroiled in property lending which in retrospect ran out of control, was too expansive, was not controlled by the risk models. I suppose it's fair to say that we had, and this is not an excuse, but it is an explanation ... some of the things that I am saying today may sound like excuses, I'm not making any excuses. I am trying to assist the committee by explaining how it seemed at the time. We had installed this enormously expensive ... the best personnel system of controlling risk and I think that directors thought that - and it was advertised - as a means of measuring, monitoring and managing risk and we just had excessive faith in it. Allied to that, we went too far with individual developers. The AIB philosophy at the time, and for years before, was "stick with your customer". Try and make sure they don't go anywhere else, because we had, as you said, plenty of customers and you have to remember that big developers were often customers that we'd had for maybe 25 or 30 years; people who had often started modestly as perhaps small builders and had been successful, accumulating large personnel wealth, always repaying their loans, always coming back for more and always repaying them again. And I'm afraid we took too much comfort in that history and we weren't...our credit processes were not strict and savage enough. We looked at affordability and I think we have to take the blame for having processes that just did not match the cataclysm that came. As I say, the competition was fierce. I refer again to Professor Honohan's analysis of the competition but that's another explanation, not an excuse.

And other members I'm sure will open up this debate as we proceed.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Certainly, Chairman.

Can you just clarify as well because this will assist us as we go into other questioning. Do you believe that AIB required a guarantee on the night of the guarantee? Should it have been guaranteed?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, but you do understand that a fundamental part of my recollection of the event was that what we asked for was a four bank guarantee-----

And I'll come to that in a moment but the-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

But yes, I think if ... well let me back up and this is fairly important so I'll try and get it precisely. What we thought we were talking about was a guarantee for AIB, Bank of Ireland and two other banks----

And-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

In a context where Anglo and Nationwide were about to be taken down.

And other members will get into that. And at what point do you believe that AIB's destiny was on the road to what was ultimately nationalisation, be ninety-nine point ... was that at the period of the ... was it already on that journey at the night of the guarantee or was that afterwards?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Absolutely not, Chairman, I don't believe so. Can I answer that because, again, it's an important question? I believe AIB was solvent then but you'll ask the question, "When did AIB become insolvent?" and I don't know the answer to that. Again, we tend to collapse ... or I can make the mistake of collapsing this fairly short period. The fall in house prices has been 40% to 50% higher in some places. At 30 September 2008, the night of the guarantee, the fall in house prices was 7.7% nationally, 8% if you included apartments. The real trouble was 2009, and I don't know when in 2009-10 AIB became insolvent, because you could mark-to-market six days in a row and get different answers and if you mark-to-market and your assets were down, then you needed more capital, then you had to sell more ... nobody will ever know, I think, because of the interaction of capital requirement rules, the Capital Requirements Directive, and the accountancy rules, when the moment came.

I just want to clear up one other matter before we go into the questions, Mr. Gleeson. In notes taken, I think by yourself, of events occurring on Monday and Tuesday, 29 and 30 September 2008, this is from the committee's document, which is Vol. 1, 30 March 2015-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It's the note that I made, I take it?

Yes C3b, page 6. I think it's coming up on the monitor now. In that evidence book, there is a line from yourself which says "The final point I made related to the form of the guarantee-----"

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm having slight trouble hearing you Chairman. Sorry, excuse me.

Yes. In ... by your report, or by your notes, you say "The final point I made related to the form of the guarantee; an nitial draft had been furnished" and then in brackets "I think by Bank of Ireland" and "was in a form which we thought was too bare; I mentioned that a guarantee had to be read correctly to technical eyes in Foreign Central Banks" and in closed brackets again "I mentioned Peru, Libia (sic), and Russia" and in closing brackets, "We ..." and in AIB's context you're saying "We furnished a more extensive formula", in brackets again, "which we brought with us". So you're proposing, or you're explaining that you came to the meeting that night with a document yourself. Closing brackets again, "as to the sort of instruments and deposits that should be covered" and then in brackets again, "This formula was eventually adopted later in the night pretty well word for word".

Now I'll come back to that in a moment, and maybe Deputy Doherty, who's coming in lead will take that. I just want to establish for the moment ... because when the committee chased up this line of inquiry, a letter came in from AIB on 21 April 2015, addressed to me, on behalf of the committee, stating from ... responding to the direction that we issued for them to get this document, saying that "AIB does not have in its possession any documents containing the formula referred to in 1 above, or the draft guarantee referred to in 2 above". They then ... AIB then go on to say, this is from Derek Hegarty, banking unit inquiry ... or banking inquiry unit ... he goes on to say "In response I confirm that, not withstanding the extensive document review exercise we conducted in response to the direction which resulted in over 47,000 pages of documentation being disclosed to the inquiry on behalf of AIB, we have not located any such documents and I can see no evidence that any such documents were generated using AIB's electronic system". Now can you just explain to the inquiry-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I can and I'm glad-----

First of all, just ... I ... the questions in terms of content can be dealt with later. There was a document.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

There was a document but I'm afraid my ... my memorandum dictated is woefully imprecise about what actually happened, and I apologise for that. But I need to answer your question Deputy-----

I just want to establish there was a document on the night.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

There was, I think, a slip of paper, a one page piece of paper, maybe torn out of a notebook, which had a number of words on it, and my recollection, and this is not in the ..... my recollection is that before we left AIB in the afternoon ... remember this was put together in the afternoon. Richard Burrows rang me in the afternoon, and we rang the treasury people who are the people who look after liquidity, and we said that we may be asked about a guarantee. And my recollection is that there was a form of words written on a single sheet of paper in handwriting by either Eugene or me, I don't know, and it would have said, you know, something like "deposits", "bonds", and something else. But that was what was handed over.

I'll get into the detail of where the document had a significance that night of ... but just for right now, Mr. Gleeson, before I bring in Deputy Doherty, I just want to establish there was a document in existence, even though AIB can't find it now, there was a document in existence that night that was brought ... or a formula of words, that was brought to the meeting that night.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----before I bring in Deputy Doherty, I just want to establish ... there was a document in existence.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

There ... I-----

Even though AIB can't find it now, there was a document in existence that night that was brought ... or a formula of words that was brought to the meeting that night.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

There was a form of words relating only, I think - and I don't have it, I have to say - only, I think, to the scope of the guarantee. And I do remember that was discussed on the night, and it might have, but I don't know, talked about-----

All right.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Can I answer your question?

Mr. Gleeson, please. I'll get into the discussion-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, but I want to answer your question.

I'll get into the discussion later.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think one of the few rights-----

No, please, Mr. ... no, Mr. Gleeson, please. Please.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----of a section 7 witness is to answer the question.

No, look, please. Yes. I just need to ... I need to get the question established ... and we can get into later in the evening, and other members will talk about the evening. What I want to get established right now ... did AIB arrive that evening ... whether it was a document or a formula of words as to how you would see a guarantee being constructed?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

If I can just say again, Chairman, because I fear I haven't made myself clear. There was a small number of words on a slip of paper which, in my recollection, described the range that ... a guarantee that would look right from foreign central banks. That's just this bit. The bank guarantee is a 12-page legal document. In the hour before we ... there was no question of drafting a guarantee, and my note is misleading to that extent. It was this critical formula, and I know bonds were asked for. And let me say just in relation to bonds because I know that's controversial, AIB had no bonds that matured in the two-year period ... it wasn't for ourselves. We had no bonds - relevant bonds - that matured in the two-year time. But that's all I can remember. And when I say farther down the same page that you were quoting, about six lines from the end, we furnished our draft guarantee - again, it was this formula - to the Government at the very early session, I believe that slip of paper was handed over.

Deputy Doherty. Deputy, you've 25 minutes.

Go raibh maith agat agus fáilte ag an coiste. So, the document contains a number of words.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes. A form of words, Deputy-----

A form of words.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----designed-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----to be the key bit-----

No, I understand. Sorry. Sorry.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----of what the coverage would be.

In most documents-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That's my recollection.

Most documents contain a number of words. Would that be correct?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Undoubtedly.

Okay. So, in relation to the number of words that were on this document-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----that were adopted word for word by the Government-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----how many words, from your recollection, were on this document?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't recollect, Deputy. If you're asking me to guess-----

Okay. Well, what-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----I'd say less than 20, but I don't recollect.

Okay. So, you mentioned that the form ... the number of words contained "bonds". What else was-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

"Deposits" and "bonds" were there.

"Deposits". And how could they be adopted word for word by the Government, given that the guarantee didn't include any detail in relation to those statistics?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't remember that either, except that there seemed to be agreement around the range of the guarantee later in the night.

Okay. So, do you have any idea ... because you took notes with the-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I didn't take-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I made notes a few days later.

Yes, that's my point. You took notes within a week of the events.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And I appreciate that we're seven years after the event and we're relying on your notes at that time between the 3rd and the 5th and obviously your evidence here today.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

In relation to the words that were adopted, as you said, within a week-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----of that event, the words that were adopted by the Government word for word-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----what could they ... those words have been?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I ... they were about ... all I can tell you is that they were about the scope of the guarantee, and I'm afraid I ... I'm sorry, but I can't-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----I can't-----

Well, the scope of the guarantee ... let's ... what was the scope of the guarantee that was on that document that you passed to the Government?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It dealt with the sort of guarantee that you would need to reassure depositors, both personal depositors and people like foreign central banks with deposits.

And what was that type of guarantee that you're suggesting?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't remember anything more than that.

So, Mr. Gleeson-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That the Government ... the Irish State would stand behind the obligations of the Irish banks in relation to X, Y and Z.

What is X, Y and Z?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't remember-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----except that it certainly included deposits and bonds.

So, Mr. Gleeson, you presented a document to the Government at the time which contained a formula-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----which contained words that were adopted word for word by the Government-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I believe so.

-----and you have no recollection as to what was in that formula, the X, Y and Z issues you-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Other than "deposits" and "bonds". And I don't remember, it might've had the two-year duration.

And in relation to Bank of Ireland's draft guarantee that you mention-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----what was contained in their draft guarantee?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't remember it. Again, it ... Deputy, it was something similar, a formula I think.

And your guarantee, you suggest in your notes - again taken within a week of the event - suggest that it was more comprehensive; that Bank of Ireland's notes were ... formula was bare?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, that's what I say in the note, but I'm unable to throw light on why I thought our formula was better, I'm sorry, but I don't believe that slip of paper came back with it. I think it was probably handed over in the meeting.

Okay. So, you saw Bank of Ireland's draft guarantee?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't remember doing so, but I may have.

Okay. You make a point in your notes ... the notes from AIB contain a reference that Bank of Ireland's draft guarantee was bare.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That's what my notes say.

Are they your notes?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

They are certainly my notes.

They're your notes. So, you take a note to say that the Bank of Ireland's draft guarantee was bare-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----but you do not know whether-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

But less extensive than ours.

Sorry, just ... but you do not know whether you saw the Bank of Ireland's draft guarantee?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think it's ... like, I certainly either saw it or heard it. It might have been just read out is the point I'm making.

Did the formula of words that were adopted by the Government word-for-word contain subordinated debts?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't remember. It's six years ago, Deputy. Mr. Nyberg, Mr. Regling, Mr. Watson didn't ask me about this. You're the first person to ask me after six years.

Would that not be, like ... I would imagine that this is an incidental issue. As chairperson of AIB, the idea of the Government and of the bank requesting the guarantee of subordinated debt isn't an incidental matter; would you agree with that?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I said to you AIB didn't have relevant subordinated debt, so ... and I wasn't catering for Anglo, because we didn't think Anglo were going to be guaranteed.

Okay. I'll come back to the night of the guarantee later on, but just before I leave this point in terms of the draft guarantees, the slip of paper or whatever-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----you may call it, the draft guarantees that's referenced in the notes from both Bank of Ireland and AIB, were you aware of any pricing mechanism being undertaken by either your own institution or Bank of Ireland in relation to the cost of the guarantee?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No. There was some discussion afterwards about pricing and that it should be related to the relative strength of banks, but I don't remember any ... there was ... let me ... I think there may have been some discussion between Mr. Sheehy and some officials, but I was not involved in any pricing discussion that I can recall.

Did Bank of Ireland discuss with you in relation to seeking Goldman Sachs to develop a possible charging mechanism?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Can you ... let me just reflect on that. Firstly, I don't remember ... absolutely not. I had no reference to Goldman Sachs. Goldman Sachs, as you probably know, recommended Anglo shares the next morning as a good buy, but I don't remember anything on the night.

Yes, but Bank of Ireland-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, that rings no bell.

You're not aware of the Bank of Ireland------

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't believe that happened.

Okay. I want to go to some of the other areas, just in relation to your evidence and some events in relation to your bank. Why did the board decide to pay an increased interim dividend, amounting to €270 million, on 26 September 2008-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well-----

-----in light of the market circumstances at the time? This is three days before-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Sure, sure.

-----you presented your draft guarantee to the Government.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, that decision, as you probably know, was made in June but it was undoubtedly a mistake. We shouldn't have done that. I think the way it was-----

Did you approve it?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I approved it at the time, but it was a mistake. There was some dissent from a couple of members where they raised the question, saying, "Is this wise?" And I think the recollection was ... the reason for it, and it wasn't a good enough reason, was reassuring the markets. "We are still on track, we're okay." It was ... you probably know that earlier in 2008, there'd been Northern Rock, Countrywide in the States, and people were beginning just to peep at banks and this was a statement that all is well at AIB, but it was a mistake. Let me absolutely-----

Did you personally benefit from that mistake?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I did and I didn't, in the sense that I'm sure I got the dividends, but I need to tell you about my personal benefit and AIB------

No, I'm just asking, in relation to the mistake that you approved-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Okay, okay, okay.

-----in terms of paying out €270 million of dividends three days before you-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

If you let me explain-----

-----if you let me ask the question, present the draft guarantee, did you personally benefit from that mistake that you approved?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, if you let me answer the question, the answer is that while I was a director of AIB and chairman of AIB, I observed the good corporate governance precept of always reinvesting everything I had in the bank. I paid the tax and bought the shares with everything I earned in AIB. To that extent, I did.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I got a dividend and I bought the shares.

That's all I'm looking for. That's all I'm looking for. You were the chairperson of AIB. Were you also involved in property development, or property speculation?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Absolutely not.

You weren't involved in any joint ventures with any property developer?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Absolutely not. I had ... my accountant put me into one or two property deals in which I was a minority player, but I had no involvement with them of any kind; it was on advice and-----

Sorry, so you would benefit from property development?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I suppose I would if they had worked out, yes. It was part of my pension plan, I guess.

Okay, I appreciate that. Can I take you to the question in relation to how the bank reconciled the level of lending on the property and construction sectors while being in breach of regulatory prudential lending limits for the sector? This is from July 2006 onwards; the reference to this is in the minutes of the board meeting on 27 July, AIB B2, Vol. 1, page 6, where it's clear that you had breached prudential lending limits at that stage in relation to concentration of the property and construction sectors.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

The answer to this will take me a little time but I'd like to give it to you if I can. It was reported, as you say, at 27 July board and in the following terms: Mr X - I'm not going to use the words of the officials if that's okay - reported that in respect of broad property, building and construction sector AIB was in breach of the limit contained in the Central Bank's licensing and supervision requirements and standards. And he said that we had ... the limit was 250% of our own funds and we had gone to 260%. He indicated that the matter had been discussed with IFSRA, who did not regard it as a significant issue. IFSRA were informed that the breach was likely to continue. He suggested that other banks were also in breach. He then advised that the concept of sectoral concentration was under discussion at the committee of European banking supervisors as well as between the Irish Bankers Federation and the Central Bank of Ireland. The board requested this issue be pursued with IFSRA-----

Sorry, we're well aware of the minutes and, because of time, we're not going to read the minutes into the record. Just, your bank was in breach of regulatory minutes ... or regulatory limits in terms of concentration to property lending in 2006. How do you reconcile that?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, can I just .... Deputy, if you ask me the question I have to get a chance to answer it.

I'll give you space. Proceed.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Regulatory limits are described ... there are 1995 standards is what they're known as, and they're described by the regulator in the following terms in the 1995 standards: "As many of the provisions are of a discretionary nature, the bank has set down requirements and standards which it uses to guide it in the supervision of the business carried out by credit institutions." So, it was used as guide in supervision. Now, let me say this to you: we would have been very well off not to have exceeded that sectoral limit. It's a great shame that we didn't. But if I can describe to you what was going on at the time, it was Basel II, and we were written to by the regulator in February 2007, shortly after that, and I'm going to read the first sentence ... the first two sentences. This is the regulator to our manager:

In the light of the requirements of the Capital Requirements Directive, and in particular Pillar 2 requirements on concentration risk, the Financial Regulator is currently reviewing its sectoral concentration framework. As part of this review I am contacting credit institutions that have experienced difficulties with the current sector limit.

We replied; I won't read out the reply because it's long and you've asked me to be short, but the reply did say, "We are now dealing with this under Basel." That reply was from Mr. Bhattacharya, the chief group risk officer, on 2 May, and there's two other pieces of information that I need to give you. In June of 2007 we put in our Basel II application to the regulator, a document that I'd say ran to 1,000 pages, with all sorts of mathematical formulae. The board, in June 2007, had to approve a sort of summary of it, and that summary included - and you have these papers - that summary included a section on credit concentration risk. The document is called the Basel Programme Governance Workstream. It had to be signed off and approved by the board, and that described the risk model that we were using for concentration risk, Moody's KMV portfolio manager, the one used by the Basel committee itself. And the conclusion, having applied that model to our concentration issue, was that based on the analysis conducted - I'm skipping a lot here - "AIB does not require additional capital requirement for credit concentration risk". We sent that application in and it was approved by the regulator.

Now, as I say, let me go back to basis. We'd have been much better off at the old limit.

I appreciate that, and you've made that point. Time is ticking on; I'm sure my colleagues will take up some of these issues. Can I take you to 7 September 2008, Mr. Gleeson, and this is AIB C3b, Vol. 2, page 41-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Say that again ...C-----

C3b, Vol. 2-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, I've had a lot of difficulty, given the names you give your books-----

We have a problem with them ourselves, Mr. Gleeson, so you're okay.

It's in page 41 to 43. It's the minutes of the board meeting of 7 September 2008. In this section ... in the minutes, when the minutes record Irish financial market, Mr. Sheehy talks about an Irish financial institution called "the institution" in the board minutes. To which institution is he referring?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm just trying to find it in my own copy. Is this 7 September?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

And it's in ... it's in 3b, Vol. 1?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Vol. 2, I'm sorry.

It's on the screen there now for your convenience. So, in relation to these minutes, in relation to the Irish -----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

They were being contacted about an institution -----

Yes, what is it?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Do you want me to identify it?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It was Nationwide.

In the recorded minutes ... the minutes record that Colm Doherty and Eamonn Hackett of AIB had a meeting with the Financial Regulator on Saturday, 6 September 2008. Also in attendance were senior representatives of Bank of Ireland, as well as the company secretary and treasurer of what we now know was Irish Nationwide Building Society.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Do you recall these events or discuss -----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I do, yes. I was in England at the time but I was kept on -----

The minutes of 7 September report Mr. Doherty as saying: "The funding profile of the institution [which is Nationwide we now know] was weak, and it was unlikely to be able to refinance funding that was maturing periodically over the ensuing year, commencing in December 2008." It goes on to say, "The quality of loans was suspect and could require write-downs ranging from a benign 13% estimated by the FR [Financial Regulator], to 30%/50% estimated by Bank of Ireland, which had previously conducted a due diligence review on the institution." End of quote. Can I ask you, Mr. Gleeson, what was the request made of AIB by the Financial Regulator in relation to Nationwide in these minutes?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, Mr. Sheehy dealt with them, he will give you a better account but as I recall it was that we would, if you like, step in and try and rescue Nationwide or support it with ... I think there was a request that we would put €2 billion into it, I think.

Okay, and the minutes report that Mr. Sheehy told a representative of the Financial Regulator that, "...it was his [Mr. Sheehy's] understanding that the institution's loan portfolio would required (sic) to be written-down substantially, and, accordingly, that if AIB acceded to the FR's request, AIB would, in due course, probably have to incur a write-downs (sic) of €1bn on the funding line provided." Why did AIB believe that of the €2 billion that is was asked to put into Nationwide three weeks before the guarantee, that €1 billion of it would be lost?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Because the suggestion was that, on my understanding of it, Mr. Doherty took the view that the write-downs would be 50% so that you'd lose half of what you ... that's the simple maths, as I understand, but I may be missing something here.

Okay, and Mr. Gleeson if a bank had to write down its loans of 50%, which, based on what you're saying, is AIB concurred with this situation, would that not make that bank insolvent?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think you're right.

So, three weeks before the guarantee would I be correct in saying that AIB had a view that Irish Nationwide was insolvent?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well ... I don't ... I thought ... I am not a chartered accountant, and solvency is one of the deep mysteries of chartered accountancy but we thought Nationwide was irretrievably broke.

Okay, okay. And your view in relation to Anglo Irish Bank?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

We didn't have the insight here. You see we had the advantage in this conversation, Deputy Doherty, that Bank of Ireland had done a more intrusive look at this sometime in the past so there was better information there. We never got to look ... we were never asked to look inside Anglo. I just didn't know what the ... when we were told, when we got to Government Buildings, that they had no liquidity for the next day. The share price had dropped 50% that day, so the view was that there was very serious dire trouble, but I didn't get to see their books that night.

I will move on to something ... again going back to the night of the guarantee. Mr. Gleeson, your colleague, Eugene Sheehy, in notes of events occurring on the 29 and 30 September 2008 ... and it is again in book of evidence AIB C3b, Vol. 2, page 38. I will quote the section for your attention ... said that, in relation to the original Government draft announcement on 30 September ... and this is the quote:

There were also issues in the Government's draft which we were uneasy about relating to the attestations by the FR that the system was solvent and that all banks were solvent. We felt there was clearly a risk in this statement if market participants purchased shares in companies once the guarantee was issued and it subsequently transpired that these companies were not as strong as contended.

Are you familiar with this discussion?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I am familiar with the bit from Eugene's statement, I just saw it recently. We didn't co-operate on our statements.

On that night, did you see ... did AIB see a draft announcement that the Government intended to issue, that included that line ... that included that statement?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

We obviously saw something that said all Irish ... I think the Financial Regulator wanted to include a statement in some sort of press release, Deputy, that "All Irish financial institutions are solvent", or something like that, and we advised against it. But that is all I can recollect. This was not the next day, this is on the day.

And you advised against saying that the individual institutions were solvent ... for the reasons ... why ... what were the reasons?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well I suppose we didn't think some of them were solvent.

You didn't think they were solvent. And the Government acceded to your request to remove that statement from their announcement?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, it didn't appear in the announcement ... whether they acceded to our request. And I don't think it was a request, I don't think that's a fair way to put it. A suggestion, I guess.

Mr. Sheehy's ... Mr. Sheehy's note says that there were also issues in the Government draft. So, I take it from that there that was a draft-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It sounds like it to me.

-----and the final announcement did not include a statement saying that the system was insolve ... solvent and the institutions were insolvent?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I believe that's the case. I haven't seen that announcement since.

And AIB requested them to take that reference or-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think we said, on the night ... there was a lot of toing and froing ... that any statement from the Financial Regulator ... and I thought it was the Financial Regulator ... or was it a statement that the Government were going to say "The Financial Regulator has informed us"?

It's attestations by the Financial Regulator, that was what was to be in the statement.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That may have been it ...that we thought that was just dangerous.

Mr. Gleeson, are you familiar with-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Sorry, can I just clarify that? I won't go on long. We thought that we were going to take Anglo to the weekend. Anglo was going to be dismantled at the weekend ... and to put a statement out on Monday night saying "All Irish financial institutions are solvent" ... and then people investing in Anglo the next day and finding it dismantled at the weekend, that could cause trouble. That was the point we were making.

Mr. Gleeson, are you familiar with a project called Project Omega?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Project Omega? It's not ringing a bell Deputy but we used all sorts of Greek names for projects. You'd have to tell me what it was about.

At any consideration ... did AIB consider taking over Anglo Irish Bank?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No. I think you're talking about something else, and maybe I'll identify it. There was another institution contemplated at the time, but never a thought for a moment of taking over Anglo.

That wasn't ... you weren't requested-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I got a sort of request that afternoon that might have implied an invite to do so from the chairman, but I wasn't having it.

From the chairperson?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

The chairperson of Anglo that afternoon rang me and said could he talk to me. Maybe that was the start of such a conversation but I-----

It was never considered.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It didn't go any further than that.

It was never considered.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think Project Omega - I am going to have to check it - was a quite different institution.

I am familiar with that, but the AIB didn't have a similar project?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, we never had any designs or contemplated for a second-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Sorry, to be absolutely complete, there might have been some discussion later with Minister Lenihan about reorganising the banks and the ones that were still surviving, taking over some of the sicker ones, but that's a different matter I guess.

In relation to the night of the guarantee itself, you were not informed, at the time of leaving Government Buildings, that Nationwide or Anglo were going to be also be-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, at no stage. The slightest hint I had of it, it wasn't that at all. When I was leaving ... I can remember being in the corridor, in the Taoiseach's corridor. We'd had this discussion about the four-bank guarantee and I do remember the Attorney General, who is a professional colleague of mine - both members of the same circuit in Munster - saying to me that I shouldn't assume that the Government had decided anything in relation to any particular institution.

We heard evidence yesterday that the Government made their decision around 1 o'clock-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I was slightly surprised at the timing ... just ... of Mr. McDonagh's evidence. I thought it was a bit later, but I don't know.

Yes. And can I ask you just in relation to the conversations that you presented and, indeed, Bank of Ireland presented that-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----are provided in evidence about the nationalisation of those two institutions-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----to take them down: what were the views of the participants in the room, the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance, in relation to those issues?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

We didn't get views, Deputy. I mean, when we were -- when we arrived at Government Buildings, I've told you, we were ... Richard Burrows, the governor of the Bank of Ireland rang me, he said, "I think we should talk to the Government," because of Anglo's share price falling, international chaos, and so on. We went there. We were put in a waiting room. We were asked to go in and the invitation to the group that I've delineated in my written statement was to say what we thought should be done and we presented this proposal for the four-bank guarantee. You'll see that it had arisen, however, the previous day, because the AIB meeting of the previous night had learnt ... Eugene Sheehy had learnt that this solution was in prospect or being discussed.

The final question I have here for you is: the board's response to Dr. Alan Ahearne's May 2007 view that property prices were overvalued by 30%-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, yes. Well, I remember the day ... I told you earlier that we would get independent economists and alleged experts - and I don't mean that in respect of Professor Ahearne; he is undoubtedly an expert. I have very great regard for him. But some of the other experts we had on other occasions weren't all that expert in the end. On that day, we had two economists come and talk to us. One was Professor Alan Ahearne, and he expressed the view that residential property in Ireland could be as much as 30% overvalued. On the same day we had another economist - I don't think it's any harm to name Professor John FitzGerald - and he thought that the overvalue could be 15%, and that's in the slides, and I have them here if you need to see them. Take the middle of those and it's 22%. We stress tested for 30%, and we could have borne 30% if all the rest of the things hadn't happened, but we could have borne ... our extreme stress test about the same time stressed for a drop in residential of 30%, but, of course, lots of other things went very wrong as well.

Thank you very much, Deputy Doherty, I'll be bringing you back in later. Can I just have that for a moment? I just wanted ... there's just one issue that's a bit overhanging there that I want to deal with. It relates to core document AIB B1, page 31.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Can you give me the reference again, Chairman?

It's AIB B1, page 31. It will come back up on the screen again there.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Okay.

It's to do about the bank's decision to pay an increased interim dividend, as Deputy Doherty related.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

You said at the time that you were the person that signed off on it, on the dividend was paid.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Was there any reservation at any board level or at any level within the bank in regard to that dividend being paid out?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

There was, but-----

And where was that coming from?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

At least one director ... I thought it was only one director. The minute says a number of directors questioned it, but I remember one in particular, and it was a valuable director, and he said, "I'm not so sure," and we discussed it and we went ahead with it.

It was overruled, or that objection was-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I mean, overruled is a bit unfair. I mean, we have the discussions and we reach a consensus.

Okay, thank you very much. Deputy John Paul-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

And it was a mistaken decision.

Thank you very much, Mr. Gleeson. Deputy Phelan.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Mr. Gleeson.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Good morning, Deputy Phelan.

I want to refer, at the start, to 2004, and to core document, AIB B1, Vol. 1, page 16. It's a minute, again, of a board meeting from 13 January 2004, where Jim O'Leary, who was then-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Just bear with me a moment. My papers are, I guess, perhaps not as .... yes, I have it now.

It's the only item on that page that isn't redacted.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I see it now.

Jim O'Leary, then a board member of AIB, suggested to the board at that meeting that a review of lending practices into the construction sector needed to take place, and I noticed earlier on in your opening statement that you were-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----vehement, or strongly, at least, pointed out that minutes tended to reflect decisions, and I just wanted you to outline perhaps firstly why you believe Mr. O'Leary brought that issue up on 13 January 2004.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I mean, I'm sorry, Deputy, I'm here to try and help you but, you know, it was that long ago. Board meetings, there's a lot of minutes, and to say what was in Jim O'Leary's head that day is ... I'm not so sure that I have those details.

Can I ask you then in light of the fact that minutes were made to reflect decisions, as you said, when did the review take place?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, I'm sure it did take place, but I don't know. I mean, I haven't gone through all the minutes. You appreciate that I don't work in AIB any more. I haven't gone through all the minutes but I'm sure ... I would try and get that information to you, if I can, but I don't have it.

Okay. Can you recall, at that particular time, and I suppose I'm trying to get to the point-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, in '04, yes.

-----in '04, were there concerns raised by others on the board. Did you have concerns yourself about concentration of lending in particular sectors or, indeed, by senior management of AIB?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't recall them is what I have to say. I mean, I have tried to go through the 1,400 pages of documents that you see on your right that you sent me in the last 16 days, but I haven't mastered them. It's just not possible to do it. Most of them came last Friday.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

So I haven't been through all the minutes that follow on from this and the right thing, if this is important, would be to try and trace through the minutes, but when you ask me the simple question do I recall concerns about property in January '04, the answer is I don't recall.

Okay. I want to move on to 2006, again to a board meeting and minutes referenced earlier on by Deputy Doherty, AIB B2, Vol. 1, page 6, that particular ... B2, Vol. 1, page 6.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Just bear with me.

It was a question that Deputy Doherty had raised earlier.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

B2(b) or (a) or (c)?

B2, Vol. 1, page 6. It concerns comments from Mr. Kevin Garvey who was the then head group-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----of credit review in AIB.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, I remember the one.

That particular ... You read out actually that part of the------

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, I did, yes.

-----minute earlier.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Kevin Garvey reporting his interaction with IFSRA.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And I don't wish to go through the quote again, but I want to ask you, did it surprise you that the Financial Regulator did not regard a breach of its own standards as a significant issue?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, when I heard it first I thought this is ... "Is this serious?" And then we were reassured that it wasn't and when I looked and, to be honest with you, I tried to look at this recently, when I looked at the way it was couched in their own terms and then, if you follow, the issue, as you know, was sectoral concentration, and the reason that they were relaxed, the reason that we were relaxed, frankly, about it was this: this was a standard which lumped a whole lot of non-homogenous properties together. You know, ten acres with no zoning outside a provincial town was treated the same as an office block in the centre of Warsaw or Dublin leased to the Government. So it was a crude, if you like, I say ... we would have been blessed if we had kept to it, or it would have helped us, but that was the case, and if you look at the Financial Regulator's reports in 2010, 2011 and 2012, they said this is a very complex issue.

So you were not concerned, really, yourself by-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I was reassured by ... and then came to understand why it wasn't regarded as significant by the regulator.

Can I ask, further on I think on that page as well, page 6, IFSRA were informed, and this is a direct quote from Mr. Garvey as well. IFSRA were-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It's on the screen now or are we waiting to get it up?

IFSRA were informed by Mr. ... had been informed that a breach was likely to continue.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And had not requested that AIB changed any of its existing practices.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Again, did that raise any alarm bells at-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I mean, no, I thought ... you know, I ... if the regulator said it, it must be right. I mean, I would take a different view now, but I -----

Would a man of your background and training .... you know, standards are standards-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, but, Deputy, I did point out to your colleague, Deputy Doherty, that I looked at ... this was not a regulatory standard. It wasn't a statutory instrument or a rule; it was a guide to assist us in supervision of the banks. And we were all translating over to Basel at the time and kept ... Mr. Garvey was a highly reliable and responsible individual. I believed he truthfully and faithfully responded ... reported the response, I should say. They did not regard it as significant.

I appreciate what you're saying. The initial quote, which you read yourself in response to Deputy Doherty's original question, it gives the title of what this is, "AIB was in breach of the limit"-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Absolutely.

-----"contained in the Central Bank's Licensing and Supervision Requirements and Standards for Credit Institutions."

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

And as read out from the standards.

Yes, I know, but you were not ... you were not-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, in the light of-----

You were reassured by-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I was reassured by two things: by Kevin Garvey saying:

IFSRA are looking into it. They're thinking of changing the standard. They do not regard it as significant.

And I was also reassured by something that ultimately didn't prove enough reassurance, that we used to be told, and it was true as a fact, that this included, as I say, office blocks, property in Poland, property in the United Kingdom, and it also included zoned and unzoned land, built houses, unbuilt houses, and so on, and that this made it ... well, I've said what I need to say.

Okay, now I want to refer to AIB, to the core document AIB B2, Vol. 1, page 13.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

B2?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Page 13, yes.

Stamped by the AIB board on the 9 November 2006. And I want to put a direct quote-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I have got the wrong document, I will have to wait for it to come up on the screen.

I'm sorry. This is B2.

B2, Vol. 1, page 13. The lower part there is a sub-heading "Credit Posture" it's called. B2, Vol. 1, page 13.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Okay. Is this "looking ahead"? No?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

"Snapshot at end 2006" is the original heading on the document and it's-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Let me see-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes I have it, I have ... I do have it now-----

Under "Credit Posture."

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes I do have it now.

It says, "We are at a point" and this is a direct quote, "We are at a point when we need to manage our loan book tightly-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

"-----and we are rightly concerned [about the concentration] of exposure to Property and Construction." I just want to know what did you and the board ... what action did you do or take following on from that particular point?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well I mean ... I can't remember what precise steps I took on a day in, the date again, June 2006. That is nine years ago. But, here I think it was being drawn to our attention and the "we" of course speaks for the whole organisation. We got regular updates. The group internal audit would review the property book. The chief risk officer ... remember the way we managed risk in AIB was this. There were three principles to do with risk management, just three. One, the risk is owned by the business. If you are the credit card person you own those business risks. Two, the risk function set-up under the man from JP Morgan, is an independent function to scrutinise the observance of risk management on behalf of the board. And that is what we depended on. I know that sounds like an excuse but that ... you couldn't ... I couldn't go around and check it. That was the system that we operated and the risk section was never refused resources. Whatever it needed to do their part of it, the second part. To look at the business end of it and to manage the risk on their ... to monitor the risk on their behalf.

The reason I ask is that the bank's exposure, subsequent to that document from 9 November 2006, to construction and property increased.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

There is no doubt at all about that-----

If you turn to page 17. Well, I just want to know ... I have highlighted concerns that were raised in 2000 ... as far back as 2004, this is another internal AIB document in November 2006 that says we need to look tightly at our loan book and our exposure to property-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

And ... and looking back on it, it wasn't-----

Why was no action taken? That is-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That is not true, Deputy.

The exposure increased.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes but hold on a second. "Manage it tightly" does not mean do not extend the exposure, with all due respect. "Tightly" means that you apply the proper credit standards and you know ... this was part of the bank obviously, the Republic of Ireland property book. But the property book in the Republic of Ireland never contributed more than 15% to the overall profits of the bank. It brought the bank down.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

But it was part of many businesses, most of them successful that we had. But it sometimes, I think, is informative to think ... people think, you know, all you did was give out loans to developers. I say it never ... about 10% to 13% in the relevant years is the profit contribution from Republic of Ireland property. So it wasn't the only thing on the screen as it were.

Okay, my time is limited, so I want to move on-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Sure.

-----to 2007. And AIB core document again, B1 volume 2 at page 27. I'll give you-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Vol. 2.

B1, Vol. 2, page 27.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, I think I have it, but I may not be sure. I'll get it on the screen hopefully.

It is B1, Vol. 2, page 27. It should be on the screen in a moment, I hope.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Is this B1, A B or C can I ask you? Because I have them divided as you sent them to me.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

You may not know-----

My reference is AIB B1, Vol. 2, page 27. It refers to senior management conference-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Okay I have it now, I think yes.

Where a report on AIB-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Sorry Deputy I am struggling with the papers but I have it.

Okay, I understand.

A report on AIB called "Poised on the Edge of Greatness" was presented by Oliver Wyman on 22 March 2007.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And at the bottom of that particular page 27, a direct quote, again, it says "that size equals no obstacles" and that is in ... it is in reference to the elephants in the room at page 23 and the issues that were highlighted as being important for AIB to address and less important. And the bottom of less important was "size equals no obstacles".

I just want to know, did you share that view at that particular time? Was the size of the loan book of AIB at that juncture a concern for you and particularly exposure to property and construction?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, this was a document that was presented to our management conference, and I would have seen it. But consultancy reports, as you know are full of sentiments about the future being great. I mean the front page will tell you that. I just can't remember how I reacted to that.

(Interruptions).

Even subsequently-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I mean I don't know if I have a reaction or not Deputy, this is, as I say, a long time ago. But subsequently I certainly had a reaction, there are statements in here about some of our competitors that proved to be unreliable.

At any stage in 2007, did you express concerns or have concerns-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think we knew-----

----about concentrations-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think the property book was big and we knew that it was concentrated. We thought it was diversified, as I have explained earlier because it had properties abroad and properties in Ireland. And we derived consolation from that and from the results of the stress tests and we were wrong.

Okay, and I want to refer now to a different document again. A different core document AIB B2, Vol. 2, page 11.

Again, it is a presentation to the board on credit concentrations.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

B2, Vol. 2, page 11?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Is this something we looked at a view minutes ago? "Snapshot at end 06" is it?

Sorry, slightly different, it is ... it is referred I think briefly to by Deputy Doherty, "Stress Test Results" and you referenced it yourself-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----in your opening comments. The presentation to the board on 25 April 2007-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

It provides that the probability of an extreme property downfall scenario arising was 4%.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And that even if it did, additional provisions would be up to €2 billion over three years.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

I just want to know ... do you have any recollection yourself or other members of the board of probing that particular assessment at that time?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I mean ... I think we were very pleased that all this science had been applied to something that, historically had been much more manual, had much more, perhaps, individual judgment in it. And, as I say, this was an expensive exercise. And I am afraid that-----

A very expensive exercise.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Indeed and you are absolutely correct, but the stress test itself I am saying, and the installation for the machinery for it was an expensive exercise, and I think, as I said earlier, that board members genuinely believed, this was after all the Holy Grail in every bank in the world. Basel II was the great answer to everything. It had been endorsed by the EU in its directive. And when we got this stress test done, and as I say, a very expensive process I think we thought this was the way to monitor and measure and manage risk.

Okay. I want to move on before my time elapses to 2008. And again to the core document I am referencing is AIB B2, Vol. 1, page 17.

This is the document, sorry, about credit concentrations that I mentioned earlier. Do you have it in front of you?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Just trying to find it now.

AIB B2, Vol. 1, page 17.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

B2, Vol. 1.

Page?

Page 17. Again it, it states that-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I wonder if I can have it on the screen.

Yes, yes, that as of-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Your books ... yes, I have it now.

It's at the ... it's there in front of you now.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

As of September 2008, AIB continued to be in breach of the sectoral concentration-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That was reported all the time to us.

Deputy John Paul Phelan -----that were mentioned earlier.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Where it was 200% ... the figure was 275%-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----per investment exposure and 390%-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----when confined with development. Was that a concern for you at the time, or the board, or ... you know, was there a discussion that you can recall?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I can't recall the discussions. I mean, I don't know how many hours I spent in that boardroom, but recalling the discussions, I'm afraid my memory just isn't that good, Deputy, and it's no point in my pretending that it was. But we certainly discussed the Irish property book from time to time. We certainly asked questions about it; we had the property people in and asked them. We asked the group internal auditor.

I don't wish to cut you but my time is brief. The fact that the regulator's guidelines, which we discussed-----

We have questions on each to get through as well.

-----at length earlier, indicated that the concentrations in two related sectors should be 250% maximum.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, yes.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----in September 2008.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Crucial month, we all know.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And you don't recall whether alarm bells rang in your own head, never mind in other members of the board at that particular juncture?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I suspect that we were conscious of this problem at that stage and that ... just remind me of the date again?

It's September 2008.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, well at that stage obviously all the loans had been made, you know.

Okay. Well I wish to move on, and refer again now to a document that Deputy Doherty mentioned also. AIB, C3b, Vol. 2, page 29.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

C3b, Vol. 2. Yes.

Page 29. It's the memo from the Department of Finance-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes. I've only seen this when I got the book last Friday, obviously.

-----from the night of the guarantee.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, yes. I don't know who wrote it, obviously but-----

Where you were, you were marked ... yes, you were marked in attendance.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And there's a quote, well it's not a quote it's a reference, I suppose more like, at the bottom, close to the bottom of page 29 where Mr. Sheehy, the then chief executive of AIB, is reported to have said, and the quote from this memo is that, "People we've been dealing with for decades, pulling back - 1 month we will be funding bank overnight. Bad if can't even get that, disaster - bankruptcy." What's your view on that?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't recall those particular words. I can see it here; I am sure this is a note that was said.

Well was it bankruptcy that was facing the bank on that, on that particular night?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I didn't believe so, and I don't, I don't recall that word being used, I have to say.

So you ... do you dispute what's in the attendance note or not?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I ... It's a different thing to say that I don't recall the word, Deputy, that's all I can say. I don't have a full recollection. I did the best I could to make a note a few days later, that's my contribution, I'm afraid, to this. Can I say, as you've asked me about this document Chairman, it's important that I would draw issue with some of it, just two points if I can make, Chairman, generally. You see Mr. Burrows is named, most of that is things I said, not Mr. Burrows. I think maybe the top two lines are Mr. Burrows and the rest is me; I can identify things I said, and the reference at the very end of Mr. Burrows is "heard from [Mr. Blank], Treasury", that's an AIB official. And the second thing that's ... not misleading, potentially misleading, is that there's a number of references on the next page to Mr. Neary. I met Mr. Neary in a corridor, but he was never in the decision makers' room when I was there.

Okay. Thank you for those comments. I want to refer you before I finish, again, to the same document, pages 26 and 27.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Same booklet?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

It's the letter that you issued to the then chairman of Anglo Irish Bank.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, it was-----

In ... a few days later, 6 October 2008 where you wrote ... and I'm going to quote directly from the bottom of page 26, "It is frankly outrageous for you to indicate that AIB's liquidity was good for "only a matter of days"." I want you to explain the apparent contradiction between what you're saying there on 8 of ... or sorry, 6 October, and what Mr. Sheehy seems to have expressed on the night of the guarantee with regard to bankruptcy.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Obviously you will ask Mr. Sheehy, I'm sure about that.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

But I didn't believe we had a solvency problem on that night, let me just say that to you. No one asked us, no one raised it, and if I'd been asked I'd have said we were solvent. I believe it and I believe it still. As I say, house prices had dropped by 7.7% at that stage. The real trouble, the real trouble hadn't really started at that stage, so I believe we were solvent and absolutely believed that. But I was complaining here because a radio interview had been given that said all the banks were the same, last Monday, AIB was in the same trouble as us, and I knew that that wasn't true. I knew that we had liquidity out beyond a month. I didn't know how much; I wasn't into the detail. I knew we had enough liquidity to be able to pull out reserves of liquidity, all this ... this was helping a competitor, to keep Anglo going until the weekend, if Governor Hurley's version had prevailed. But I certainly ... I believed I was telling the truth and I still believe I was telling the truth in the paragraph that you-----

So the note from the night of the guarantee from the Department of Finance, which referenced Mr. Sheehy as using the phrase "disaster bankruptcy", you've no recollection really of that happening at all?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I have a recollection and I have drawn your attention to an inaccuracy in the note-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----qua myself and I don't know that that's accurate for Mr. Sheehy or not, so I'd prefer to leave to leave it at that. I mean I can't speak for what he said-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----and I certainly don't remember the verbatim words.

Yes. I was going to ... I was going to reference, Mr. Gleeson, the end of your statement, 23-page statement, on paragraph 96, page 23.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

My one statement.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

The written statement?

Yes, the written statement for today.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Let me get it out.

You said, and I quote, "there were decisions made in AIB which made things worse than they need have been for Irish citizens". What were those decisions?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well I think the decisions we've been discussing, too much, too much property-----

Do you believe that you bear any responsibility?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Of course I do.

In light of the fact, 2004 Mr. O'Leary was raising concerns, at least, that were referenced in minutes, which have been given and now put to you at this, at this meeting. 2006, there were similar minutes that spoke about concentrations in particular sectors and how the guidelines of the Financial Regulator were being breached, and it went on into 2007. And as late as September 2008, you were at 390% when the guidelines said 250%. You know, what responsibility do you, as the chairman of the board of AIB at the time, bear for that?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

But, there's two questions there. Firstly, I would expect good directors like Mr. O'Leary to raise issues all the time; the more questions the better. That makes it a healthy boardroom.

Please, I give you enough time to ask the question, Deputy, now I need the witness to reply.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

The second question that you asked me is what responsibility I bear. And I was the chairman of this and I bear the responsibility. This is where the buck stopped. I can tell you, Deputy Phelan, that it's a salutary thing when you discover for the first time in your life in your 60s that doing your level best in a job is not sufficient to prevent very negative consequences ensuing. I haven't done many jobs in my life. I was a teacher; I was a barrister, outside Dublin, barrister in Dublin, I worked for the Government for three years. And the outturns there were adequate, perhaps, no more than that. But I did my level best in this job as well, and the outcome was entirely unsatisfactory and that's a responsibility that I absolutely accept and I can never get away from it.

Now just before we go to the break there, Mr. Gleeson, I just want to deal with one matter, and it's the issue of incentives and remunerations. And if I could maybe ask you the salary bonus and pension plans offered to the senior executives at AIB, they would be considered significant, certainly in today's circumstance-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Sure.

-----and maybe back then. Are you, are your reflection of that, do you believe they were justified and appropriate for an Irish financial institution----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well-----

-----an island of 4.5 million people paying these big sums?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well I mean, I think the answer is in the question that you've posed, Chairman. Clearly not appropriate by today's standards and looking back, they were paid much too high but that was the market rate at the time. We always got consultants from outside, expensive consultants say what is the rate. And Dr. Nyberg has commented that the salaries of the AIB chief executive was the least relative to size. Our objective was to get what the market rate was and pay a bit less than that. Clearly we paid too much.

The core document there relating to is up there on the screen at the moment, so I'm not going to ... it just gives a context as a board meeting, so I'm not going to get tied up into referencing that.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I have it.

The ... I suppose what I'm getting to here is how performance remuneration influences the factors in the bank's lending behaviour.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Was there at any time consideration relating to risk built into the measurements performance?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, I have seen that written and raised and it's a perfectly correct question to raise, these people were on performance plans which if the EPS went up a certain amount they would get a lot of extra money. The first thing to say is that hardly any of that ever vested, the test was too high. CPI plus 10% is almost impossible to do. Secondly there were components in that test that related to the market as a whole, 50 other European banks, no control over those. And so far as Irish property lending is concerned, you know going back to the statistic that I gave to your colleague, Deputy Phelan, about 15% at most of the bank's profits were provided by Irish property so lending to Irish property was never going to affect the EPS in a way that would get you this money.

In layman's or laywoman's terms looking in this morning, the performance bonuses were on increased sales -----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

They were not on increased sales, they were never on increased sales. Volume was never a parameter, profits yes but never volumes.

And were there bonuses for somebody who might say, "I think we need to shrink this area and underperform because it's getting risky"?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't remember that happening but maybe it did.

Okay, but you have no recollection of that?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't remember that happening but maybe it did.

Thank you. I now propose we break, returning at 11.25 a.m. In doing so, to remind the witness that once he begins giving their evidence, he should not confer with any person other than his legal team in relation to the evidence on matters that are being discussed before this committee. With that in mind, I will now suspend this meeting until 11.25 a.m. and remind the witness that he is still under oath until we resume. Thank you very much.

Sitting suspended at 11.11 a.m. and resumed at 11.34 a.m.

We will move back into this morning's proceedings and public session. Is that agreed? Agreed. I now propose that Senator Michael D'Arcy take the next line of questioning. Senator, you have ten minutes.

Thank you, Chairman. Mr. Gleeson, thank you for coming. In your opening statement, the comprehensive document, page 20, section 83 ... Mr. Gleeson?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

The initial portion of it is where you discuss the conversation that was being held between AIB and Bank and Ireland-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----and there was that there would be a guarantee for four and, in your own words, that the Anglo and Irish Nationwide there would be a taking down or taking into custody.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

You subsequently state, "At a meeting on a subsequent occasion, when I was alone with the Minister of Finance he indicated that that was the course which he had favoured on the 29th September, but that other views had prevailed."

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Could you expand upon that line in terms of the conversation you held with the Minister of Finance?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, the Minister was a professional colleague of mine and ... I wouldn't have been a close friend but I do regard him as a friend of mine ... At some meeting subsequently, I would think a few months later when we were waiting for someone else to come or maybe when he was saying goodbye to me or if it was just the two of us, I don't remember precisely, but I do remember he said, "You know, on that night, I would've been in favour of taking down those two institutions," or something like that, and there was no more than that. I didn't ask him, he didn't say anymore, and he wasn't complaining, I think he was just affording me an anecdote. I didn't find it surprising that there would've been different views on the night. This was a very difficult decision.

In previous evidence, Governor Honohan, at a chapter he wrote in a book about in ... about Minister Lenihan, stated that Minister Lenihan told him he was overruled.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I was unsure, in my own mind, whether I should put this into my evidence at all, because in a sense, he was speaking to me in confidence and I've never told anyone, but it was on foot of Governor Honohan saying that that was a thing. It seemed to me that it would be unfair of me not to record that evidence, it having, as it were, gone public in some degree, and so I've made that decision, but I believe the Minister was speaking to me privately, as it were at the time.

Thank you. In your, and I'm quoting core documents AIB C3b-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

C3b, yes.

-----page 33, the memorandum of ... C2b sorry.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Say that again?

AIB core documents, C3b, Vol. 2.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

C3b, Vol. 2, okay. Yes. Page 33.

Page 33 in a memorandum from yourself to Mr. Eugene Sheehy.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Point 1, you state, "Two institutions nearly brought down the system." Point 2, you state, "Their [.....] went unregulated, by a hopeless regulator." You-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That was private talk between me and Eugene, an unkind phrase to use, I think, but I felt that we had been let down by regulation, but we ourselves had got into trouble, so who am I to speak.

But this was written on 2 October-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes-----

-----and at that stage-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----but things were pretty fraught, Senator, as you can imagine, you know. And it was preparatory to going to meet the Minister. See, we had left Government Buildings that night thinking that there were four banks going to survive with the guarantee, and ... the phrases from farther down this memo that I read out earlier, I was ... I suppose it had been presented that we had asked for a guarantee, true, but the guarantee that transpired wasn't the one we'd asked for. But we weren't going to come out and say that, obviously, that wasn't in anyone's interest. So there was an element of peevishness here, which perhaps I ... perhaps I should regret. I mean, as I said to you, I remember the next morning, Goldman Sachs came out and advertised or promoted Anglo as a buy. They said there was an upside of 50 something percent of it as a share buy. And we'd been, sort of, asked to rescue it or to assist in its rescue for a couple of days, the day before. So mixed feelings, can I put it that way.

In the guarantee, going back to again, AIB C3b, Vol. 2, that same document, Mr. Gleeson.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Same document, yes, grand.

Page 41, we've discussed it previously about INBS-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Page 41, yes.

-----about INBS requiring potentially €2 billion to €4 billion.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Mr. Doherty and Mr. Sheehy mostly have this sent.

You had discussed that before and you had ... was there any other previous discussion formally or informally with the Financial Regulator prior to the night of the bank guarantee that another institution may have required additional liquidity, before the night of the bank guarantee, with AIB senior officials?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

You mean from a ... another institution other than Nationwide, is it?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No. Not that I recall, but I have to say, that's a question probably more usefully directed to Eugene Sheehy, because the discussions took place through him. I mean, the assessment for us was done by Colm Doherty and he went into Nationwide, looked at it and said "Don't touch it" in effect. And he's a smart fellow.

And it's clear in that document also that the Bank of Ireland due diligence certainly coloured your view upon INBS. Is that correct?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, I think Colm would have relayed that, you know, that they had done a deeper look at some earlier stage, I don't remember when, and I don't know the context even in which they were looking at it.

And on the night of the bank guarantee, was that view expressed to the senior officials, to the people who where present on that night, that potentially there was a solvency issue with INBS?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, the meeting proceeded on the assumption that both those institutions were finished, that they were down the drain. I mean ... I ... my statement of the night records the fact that INBS bonds were trading at 20 cent in the euro and their credit default swaps were 27% over Libor. That means the market thinks that's over.

But I'm asking you was that information directly delivered from AIB, Bank of Ireland, to the officials on that occasion in relation to-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well I said to them, part of the little introductory chat I had, was that Nationwide had got under the radar because it didn't have a share price but that its bonds were trading at 20% of their value and their credit default swaps suggested that their credit was not worth anything. And so, I mean, it was said in those terms. I don't think there was anyone in the room who didn't realise that was an institution that was in terminal trouble but what language precisely was used, other than what I said myself, I can't remember.

Mr. Gleeson, you understood that a four bank guarantee was what you were requesting, is that correct?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, I mean it had ... the proposal didn't originate with us because you'll see the memo of the minute we had on the Sunday evening of the meeting, where Eugene reported that the authorities said "two financial institutions likely to fail" and a limited guarantee for the rest. Very succinct.

It's seven years later, Mr. Gleeson, a lot of water under the bridge - in your view if the four bank guarantee had occurred as you hoped and perhaps had expected along with in your own words "the taking into custody" of the other two-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----could AIB have survived as a going concern without Government aid?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That's a question I don't feel I am equipped to answer honestly. I don't know the answer. If I was guessing I certainly wouldn't say it definitely would. That's all I can say but perhaps it would. I just don't know but you are asking me a question that's outside my information stock and competence. I understand but perhaps closed my mind down a bit on these matters from the middle of 2009.

But you're probably better placed than most people to make-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm not so sure because this is sort of a central banking issue. You know, we went in there that night and asked for this and in a sense the decision that had to be made by the policy makers, the Government, the Governor of the Central Bank, that involved expertise that I didn't claim to have. So I think, Senator, I'd be pretending if I attempted an answer.

Okay. You made a statement that one bank cannot stop a bubble.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Can one bank cause a bubble?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I rather doubt that. I mean ... I suppose one bank in a small country where there is only one bank, you know, maybe that could happen but I don't think one bank could cause a bubble. I mean one bank can lead a bubble. I suppose I go back to the inference of Anglo in Governor Honohan's statement at the Dubrovnik conference that reckless lending by one bank put competitive pressure, as it did. We used to think, well we're not going to copy Anglo but you know managers in country towns who see their good customers walking across the street, inevitably there's an effect.

Senator you're out of time. I just ... whilst the Senator concentrated a lot on the guarantee, I want to return to a governance issue.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

That relates to a number of control issues arose in AIB over the years such as Rusnak and I think you referred to some of these in your opening statements this morning - foreign exchange rate settings, incorrect interest rate charges, offshore accounts, etc.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

In your judgment as chairperson of AIB, Mr. Gleeson, how do you reconcile these with the governance standards outlined in each of AIB's annual reports?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I mean, AIB had 26,000 employees. I don't know I suppose that's the working population of Waterford or Limerick, I don't know. They're not all going to be perfect but I think we made a serious effort and that I made a serious effort to try and inculcate ethical standards. There had been this disgraceful business in the 90s with foreign exchange, now this is the first foreign exchange issue and you sent me some papers on that and we sent that report to the guards.

We instituted staff training on ethical issues and did surveys about how effective it was and there was ... every year ... and I haven't been able to go back through the minutes, the AIB code of business ethics was sent to every employee and it was approved by the board every single year while I was there. Usually in the spring - I can remember this time of the year.

There was a separate initiative for senior managers who would be taking the more serious decisions and I think the only time I ever addressed a group of managers, managers were run by the CEO. That's the way it works. I run the board and he runs the bank. But I did address a group of senior managers to launch a thing called "Leadership by example" and it was about probity and obeying the law. And in July 2007 Eugene Sheehy and myself launched that so we did make those efforts. We also got an assessment done by an English organisation called the Institute for Business Ethics and they said we were above par for the financial services industry. So there was an attempt to inculcate lawfulness - can I put it that way and I believe that the vast majority of AIB employees were entirely correct in their behaviour.

A general question before I invite the next questioner, Mr. Gleeson, is that the bank has governance standards, these are outlined every year in the annual report but there are a series of ... these are not small events ... they're quite significant events, the exchange rates and all the rest. At any stage was there, this is the question, that we really need to review our governance standards and by means of a process then developing, if the governance standards, were they of a particular nature that matters then relating to the guarantee were inevitably going to happen, in terms of credit concentration levels and all of the rest of it?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, I think that analysis is flawed, Chairman, I am sorry to say it but I don't think that's the way things happened. I mean I think the guarantee arose from all sorts of complex features including contribution by AIB mistakes but I honestly don't think that the historical issues, and they were real, lead to the guarantee. I honestly don't think that's what happened.

Okay but can I put the question to you that there seems to have been an ethos or a culture or a repetition of error after error after error? As chairperson of AIB, did you think you changed, that you succeeded or failed in dealing with that ethos?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I think we need to be careful about this. I don't think there was repetition of error after error after error. There were historical events in the 90s and before I was chairman and while I was chairman this FX overcharging issue came to thing which I don't think was an offensive dishonesty or anything. Bad administration maybe but there was no-one benefitted from it and we repaid fully and we ... all our reports were always supervised by someone from the outside. We got usually a former Governor of the Central Bank come and look over our shoulder while we did those investigations.

Mr. Gleeson, just to remind members whilst that we are concentrating on the guarantee at one level, there are years of events that came before the guarantee and we would need to be balancing our questionings on both areas. Next questioner, Senator Michael D'Arcy. Sorry, my apologies. Senator Marc MacSharry.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I know who you are, Senator.

And it's Michael D'Arcy.....Thanks very much, Mr. Gleeson, for being here. How did the establishment of the chairman's committee in 2004 impact on the authority of the board and what was the rationale behind the restructuring in that regard?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, the rationale of the chairman's committee was that there were sometimes things that came up, you couldn't assemble a board, the board was international. As you probably know we had two Americans at one stage, one American always, three from the United Kingdom and then two from Belfast, people around the country. So, if there was something urgent - let's say a large plc. came and said "We are going to buy a ... do an acquisition and we need €1 billion" and the capital markets fellas looked into it and said "This is fine." You couldn't get a board together and it was over the limits, so you did it for that. You also did it for things like sometimes you might need a board resolution for appointing a receiver, sort of housekeeping stuff really. And then exceptions to the large exposure policy were sent to the chairman's committee as well.

The point I want to get to in particular-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

So, when exposures were being increased or there were a decision maybe between one particular borrower, did that come to this committee or did it go to the board?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It could come to the board or it came to this committee. I mean if the board was going to sit tomorrow you'd bring it to the board.

But typically-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Typically it came to the committee.

Okay, so, how many times would you think that you would have made exceptions at that committee?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well I thought that was of interest of me and it's of interest to you obviously. All I got was the minutes for the three years, 2006, 2007 and 2008, so I can't say how frequent they were before that, but-----

Well say in those years, I mean, how many-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

In those years I can tell you how often it was.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I ... now ... this is me, without assistance, going through the minutes and trying to check. They're heavily redacted as you know so I may well have missed some, but on my account, if you include both UK property and Irish property, I'm not talking about property lending decisions, not decisions to buy out a public company or to sponsor a share, you know, other ones, but property in the UK and Ireland, I think there were 17 in those three years. About one every three months.

And would that be typically ... without mentioning names, give me one example, say, of, developer A-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well you have an example in your papers, yes. Developer A wants ... he's got a new project, or he has run into trouble in the financing of the old one. I remember one which was really quite extraordinary. There might be ... say a development was going through phases and the planning authority required the sequential phases to come back for planning. There was going to be a DART station that had to be paid for by the developer on ... or maybe a Luas station, I can't remember, and that was extra money. So you would get top-up requests, and also I'm afraid, you would occasionally get top-up requests that suggested that a developer might be getting into trouble. You know you'd loaned him €100 million and he now needed another €10 million to finish the thing out and the decision was, do you give him the extra €10 million or do you leave it unfinished? So, there were sometimes troublesome decisions.

So when you took these decisions, were they routinely second-guessed then by the broader board or-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, they were not routinely second-guessed. They were all presented and explained to the board, but, the way it worked, you see, if ... a credit like that for a developer looking for extra money would typically go, first, the lenders in Republic of Ireland division would do it, the senior lenders would look at it. Then they'd have to go to the Republic of Ireland credit committee. That's to say the credit people, who are completely independent, have nothing to do with lending and are supposed to be, if you like, scrutinising it in a sceptical way. If it got through that, and some of them didn't, it would come to the, if it was big enough, the group credit committee. Now the group credit committee had the group chief credit officer, the chief risk officer, these serious players on it, and it was then ... only then would it be promoted to the chairman's committee.

Okay, so, did the board ever have to take the decision to lend somebody money or not?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, occasionally they would have approved.

And how big ... what level, that'll end up in the board-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think there's one on the books there of adding €200 million to a developer who already was up at €700 million or €800 million.

Is there any instance where the board decided "No, we're not going to do that".

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No I don't think so, and I mean that's a very obvious question and creates the impression that it was rubber-stamping, and it wasn't actually. I mean, when you think of it, the idea was that these credits, like the one I've just mentioned for instance, you don't have in your small papers, but I have in my long papers, because you have them as well, but ... the mark-up for that particular credit, and I have it here, 48 pages of analysis and analysis of who the independent valuers are and what they say about everything, the loan to value of every component, the track record of this customer, what their personal net worth is, their personal net worth statement, all their own assets, running to €2 billion in this case, their repayment history, so, the mark-up on a document like that would be very substantial and would give you all the history and then there would be an industry appraisal. Some of this was for office development in Dublin, "What does the office development market look like at the moment?", so it was quite a stringent process.

Yesterday we had an example from the CEO of NAMA where he spoke anecdotally of a senior lender in an institution that was nameless, lending €200 million to somebody on the basis of a statement of affairs that was handwritten and put back into his pocket in a matter of months.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I saw that on some website overnight, yes.

Were there ever-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I hope not and certainly I never heard of it.

-----any such practices?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I doubt that with all due respect. I mean I ... he didn't, I think, Senator, if I'm not mistaken, I don't think he identified particular banks, but I don't believe that's the way the business-----

You said earlier on, to do with targets, that it was never sales-related, that it-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, it was profit-related sometimes.

It was profit-related.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well not profit-targeted, but sometimes-----

But how do you reconcile that then with individual branch managers having lending targets? Surely that's volume-related.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, they didn't have lending targets, they had lending limits.

No, again, can I just ask you to be very specific here? Is it not the practice that branch manager, or business manager A in region B, is told "your target for quarter one or two or three or the year, is so many millions, in lending"?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I ... he may well be told that but not connected to his pay. That's where we're ... have a difference. Yes.

So well surely if he lent that money, would that not be an indication that he performed to target and therefore might-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm afraid now you're getting into a detail in terms of managers' systems that I'm not the best person to ask. I am sorry for that.

Okay, so in terms of remuneration ... so ... you might-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm aware ... more aware of what higher managers were-----

I understand. So what you're saying, just so that we're clear for the record, what you said earlier maybe isn't entirely correct then.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It may not be, no. I don't think I can speak with sufficient authority.

No problem, we can ask ... we can ask some of the others from the bank.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think you're having Mr. Sheehy-----

Yes, we'll speak to him about that. You mentioned in your statement that the ECB had tools at its disposal to enforce policies that could mitigate against the negative impacts of interest rates being too low. I think you stated that they ought to have been between 6% and 12%.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well there's the economists, and I'm ... while I have an economics degree I'm not in any sense of the word an economist.

No I know that but you did say the ECB had these tools at their disposal if I'm understanding you correctly.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well they've a legal instrument.

Yes, and what is that legal instrument? Could you explain just for people-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It's a statute ... I don't have it with me ... but it's the statute of the European Central Bank or something, and I'll certainly be able to find the reference, and what it says is, I think, is that national central banks must operate, and then there's this key phrase, "in accordance with the instructions of the ECB". All I was drawing the attention of the committee to was that it looked to me, and I might be wrong about this, is that they had power to say "Portugal has gone off the tracks, we want to tell the Portuguese Central Bank to do X, Y or Z".

Is this something that you realised with the benefit of hindsight or at the time do you remember thinking-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Oh no, it's something I picked up with hindsight, yes.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I was ... I absolutely was not conscious of-----

Okay, so in any event, nothing happened in Irish hands-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well as far as I know. I'm not an expert on this area but I'm just conscious that it says that, and I read that somewhere, and I thought it might be of interest.

Okay, just last question then. You spoke earlier, and indeed in your statement, of how, in a private conversation with Brian Lenihan, the late Brian Lenihan, that he had said that his preferred option was to deal in a different way with Irish Nationwide and ... and Anglo.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Would there be any other pieces of information that the Minister may have shared with you in private that may be relevant to us here?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No. I don't think I'm keeping anything ... no ... no I ... I mean ... I don't honestly think so. I don't honestly think so. I mean the reason I've worried about that was obviously the late Mr. Lenihan can't give his version, and then, could there be an unfairness in this, but when Governor Honohan came out, I felt that the right thing to do was to tell you.

Okay, I have five seconds. In the room for the guarantee, on the particular night in question, was Mr. Lenihan present at all times when you were present?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, because ... there was the Taoiseach's anteroom, as I know it, because I used to work in that building myself, was where the decision makers were. The rest of us were distributed in other rooms. Now, Mr. Lenihan, when I went into that room, was present all the time. In other words when we were asked back into the decision makers, we met the same personnel, the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance, the Attorney General, the Governor of the Central Bank until very late when he was replaced by Mr. Grimes, and departmental secretaries, Mr. Doyle, Mr. Cardiff his assistant, and ... I've listed them in the list. And when we went back in to that room, Mr. Lenihan was always there, as far as I remember.

Thank you very much Senator MacSharry. Senator O'Keeffe.

Many thanks Chair. Mr. Gleeson, you said at the start in response to Deputy Doherty that you had had some property yourself as part of your pension plan.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I used a "pension plan" in a loose term, it wasn't ... in terms of my savings for retirement I suppose.

Did any of the other members of the board of AIB have any involvement in property deals, apart, of course, from owning their own house, perhaps?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I can't answer that question Senator O'Keeffe. It's certainly possible and the answer is that I don't know. I mean, I think it improbable that the American and UK directors would have, but I just don't know.

And it was never something you might've thought was relevant, you know, that involvement by-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't think so.

-----by board members in the property market.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I mean,-----

You didn't ask them.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----we were not a public body.

You didn't ask them.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, I didn't ask them, "Are you invested in property in Ireland?" I didn't.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I was to a ... I think, to be fair, to a pretty small degree, I'd have to say. I mean, nothing like you're talking about the numbers here. A small amount of my savings were put into something.

When you referred earlier to the OECD and the report that it-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----gave and said how well-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----things were going, can I ... it's just a very simple answer I'm looking for. If it looked at the banks, did it look at the banks given information by the banks? Was that how they did-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

You know, did the banks supply the information to the OECD?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Senator-----

And then it made its report based on that.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm afraid, Senator, I can't help you. I don't know the answer to the question. I'm sure that's a question that's easily answered-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----and, if you want, I will try and find the answer afterwards and-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----communicate with you.

If I could bring you back again to a document you've already looked at in relation to the regulator ... it's document C3 ... book C3b, Vol. 2, 15 April.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

C3b, Vol. 2. I have it, yes.

Yes. It's the one in which somebody else has remarked about ... you know, the "hopeless regulator" remark.

Page number? Page number?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Page 33.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Thank you.

You ... so, you said a "hopeless regulator". At the end of that document, you also said, "Either the new era of regulation starts with the price list to be published on Monday, or we despair of any proper regulation ever starting and act accordingly."

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

When you came in this morning, Mr. Gleeson, you said you had a perfectly professional relationship with the regulator. I want to know which of these should we stand by in relation to your evidence. Did you have a perfectly professional relationship or was it a hopeless regulator and you despaired of any proper regulation?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I think you can have a perfectly professional relationship, Senator. It's behaving politely, doing what you're asked, not having vast rows and ... professional, I mean, in the sense of they interacted with us at all sorts of levels. I meant it in the sense that it was respectful of them.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That's all I would say. I mean, this was an internal memorandum and I was ... I suppose, I'd not had much sleep. And it's an angry memo. That's what I'd say about that.

Okay. On page ... AIB B2, Vol. 1, page 13 ... and again you've looked at-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

B2 or A2?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Vol. 1.

Vol. 1, page 13. Again, it's a document you've already looked at. It's called-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

If you'd just bear with me for a moment, now.

-----"Looking Ahead". I think-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

B2, Vol. 1.

I think Deputy Phelan already drew your attention to it.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Okay.

The "Credit Posture" ... I just want to know one simple question - whether the handwriting on that-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'd have to find the page.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

You'll have to help me.

Page 13. Take your time.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

B2A.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Is it A, B or C?

Vol. 1, page 13.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Thirteen. I might be able to get it from that. Page 13, "Looking Ahead".

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes. I have it.

Is the handwriting ... is that your handwriting?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, it's not.

Okay. That's fine, thank you. In relation to going to the bank ... to the night of the guarantee, can you just explain to us exactly how you got to be in Government Buildings? Who made-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

How I got to be in Government Buildings, yes.

Who made the phone calls-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, surely. Yes.

-----and who was spoken to?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes. Well, I think this is set out in the note that I dictated, it appears.

Well, just tell us, if you would, please,-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Surely.

-----because it's not entirely clear from the note.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

In the afternoon of 29th ... sorry, the story starts the previous evening when we heard from Eugene Sheehy that the authorities had indicated to him that two institutions likely to fail and a guarantee for the others.

Who authority ... in authority informed him?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't know.

Okay. We'll ask him.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

And then on the ... two things happened on the afternoon of the Monday, 29th. I had a phone call from Sean FitzPatrick asking for a meeting, which I declined, and he also asked if I'd go with him to the Central Bank, I think, or to the Government. I'm not sure. Anyway, that meeting didn't happen. I later had a phone call from the governor of the Bank of Ireland and he said he thought it was ... that things were so fraught in the markets ... and this was a very fraught day. Anglo's share price had dropped by 50%. The American Congress was meeting on what's called the Paulson rescue plan. So, there was a lot of nervousness. People were, you know, very fraught. We were talking to the fellas - the officials - down in treasury department, which is the part of the bank that collects our funds. And the thing was quite fraught. Richard Burrows said, "I think we should go and see the Government." I said, "I agree." We had a quick phone call and we arrived at Government Buildings at 9.30 p.m.

So, who did you ring and who rang who?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I didn't ring anyone. I'm sure-----

Okay. Somebody else did.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I would think that someone in the chief executive's office or perhaps in Bank of Ireland's office rang someone in the Taoiseach's Department. "I don't know" is the answer.

Why did you have to wait until 9.30 p.m.?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That was the time we were told to come.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

So, off you went, the two of you, you and Mr. Sheehy.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And that was it.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Now, Mr. Sheehy says in his evidence-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----that the guarantee that the AIB piece of paper that you described to Deputy Doherty this morning-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

He says, "We had drawn up an alternative form which included language which was more specific and also included a definite timeline".

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Right.

So, again, he seems to be also-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

He has more-----

He has more-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I did, I think, say to one of your colleagues earlier, Senator, that I thought there might've been something about the duration in it.

Yes. So, again, who ... when he says "we" ... I mean, who would've drawn that up? Did you sit-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I-----

-----in your office?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No. No.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think what happened was that, it was in the conversation with the treasury people,-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----that they proffered a form of words which would reassure the people that they interacted with on a daily basis, people like foreign central banks. That's what I think happened. That's where I think the formula came. I wouldn't ... it wouldn't have been within my skill set to draw up such a formula.

You say in your statement, I think, that you and Mr. Burrows - Bank of Ireland in other words - you guys had agreed going in the door that something had to be done about the other two.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, it wasn't going in the door. We had a phone call-----

Sorry. I meant ... I beg your pardon. That's not what I ... that you had agreed this. How had you arrived at that agreement? The two banks.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, remember that the system had proffered to us the day before - to Mr. Sheehy, should I say - that two were likely to fail. We knew who they were. We knew that Anglo ... we knew who they were. It was Anglo and Nationwide. As to what was being done with them, the system had also proffered the solution that they would be "dealt with", in inverted commas. I didn't give much ... maybe ... I didn't give much reflection to how they would be dealt with. I thought nationalisation was the most likely, but maybe immediate liquidation was possible. But I had so many worries that designing the Government's solution to dismantling these ... I felt that was for the Central Bank and the Attorney General and ... you know, it wasn't one of my headaches, of which there were ample supply.

So, we went in, we were asked by the Taoiseach - very politely - to say what we thought should be done and we said that we thought they should be dealt with and then a guarantee put in place because there would be a turmoil, it would be the front page of all the financial press the next day - "Irish bank taken down" or "nationalised" or whatever it would read - and people in South Korea and Peru would be saying, "I wonder whether I want to give my money to AIB for the next two months." It was against that contingency-----

You've come to the last question, Senator.

And you were asked to assemble, weren't you, liquidity? You and Bank of Ireland.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And you went to considerable difficulty ... considerable effort to make that happen.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yeah. Well, not me personally,-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----but the people in-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That, yes.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes. They stayed up all night, I think.

All night. Why would the Government be doing that when then they were actually going to guarantee all the banks, do you think? What-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That's a good question.

What happened there?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I mean, I'm obviously only guessing at the answer.

Well, guess away.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, the guess is that there were options still floating and that the version that I had come in with was still alive.

But as you were leaving-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----Government Buildings at whatever hour it was,-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----what was in your head? Did you think, "Okay, they've done that; it's going to be four and two-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, except that-----

-----somehow or other"?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I said ... the Attorney General who, as I say, is someone I know very well, did say to me on the way out, "You shouldn't assume that the Government is committed to take any particular action in respect of any particular institution." Now,-----

At what time of the night do you think ... never mind what someone else has said?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

You know when you stay up late-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I mean, we left about 3.30 a.m., I think, so I don't ... certainly after midnight. I ... my recollection is that I thought it was towards when we were gathering our traps to go home.

Were you surprised to discover that the NTMA was in the building and never was asked for its advice?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I saw that yesterday or, sorry, on the paper this morning.

Yes, but were you surprised?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I suppose nothing would surprise me at this stage.

Senator, you're about to run out of time.

But were you surprised?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I was surprised, yes. I didn't know it, can I put it that way?

Yes. Okay. And was there anybody else that you had a conversation with in that ... you know, that night-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well----

-----that you may have not remembered?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I ... well, sorry. My memory is not any better now, Senator, than it was when I wrote the note. And I think I recorded all the names. I did mention that I met another partner from Arthur Cox's in the corridor. I met Mr. Neary in the corridor and had a private, like, personal chat with him. Nothing about the issues. But Mr. Neary was never in the room when the-----

Why nothing about the issues? There you are with the-----

Senator, you're out of time.

-----Financial Regulator.

You're out of time.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I might've said something, "We're all up here very late"-----

Bring it on.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----or ... I don't know what I said. A pleasantry.

There is a question that I believe now needs to be asked because we can ... while there is a lot of information on the guarantee, there is a period leading up to the guarantee that has to be dealt with.

And I want to discuss the business model that AIB were operating.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And would I be right in asking you, Mr. Gleeson, that the development of the bank's business strategy is one of the main responsibilities of the board?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, in a sort of overview sense. It's proposed, usually by the executive.

So, it would take up a substantial part of the board's activity?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm not so sure I'd subscribe precisely to that. It's an important thing-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----but, I mean, you have to remember this, as you pointed out, is a bank that was at this stage 180 years old. You know, you inherit a lot of the bank's universal bank strategy. You're not going to say, "We're going to close all the branches" or anything.

Okay. Well, in my opening question this morning, a bank that was in existence going back before the establishment of the State, and I think before the Act of Union, or in around that time ... there was a business model in place.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Did the business model change radically in the period before the guarantee, the grow-fast model as maybe Bill Black, a witness here before the inquiry-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I mean clearly the ... it changed in the sense that we all see now that property lending in Ireland-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----overwhelmed the whole bank.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That happened-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----but that wasn't a designed change in the business model. As I said to you, it's important to recognise that, you know, the profit contribution from Irish property was less than 15%.

Well, was there any time, let's say between 2002 onwards ... NAMA's testimony yesterday said that AIB's book doubled in a very short period of time.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Other banks' trebled or quadrupled. Was there any view at that time, at board level, that somebody was eating your lunch and that you were going to go after it?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I've hard that expression used and certainly a very senior businessman said to me once that, you know, "You should be careful." This was meant in a kindly way.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

"You should be careful because there must have been a time in the past when Aer Lingus didn't take Ryanair seriously and you'd want to be careful that you don't treat Anglo the same way." Things like that were said to me.

But the question, and I'm going to move on after this, did AIB, to your interpretation-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----radically change the type of business model that it was historically using in the 2002 period-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Not in any conscious or deliberate way.

Okay, and so-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think our policy was to hold on to our own customers.

So, how did the bank double, if it didn't change its model?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Because we were holding on to our own customers who were multiplying their businesses by much more than double.

Okay. So, were you mirroring their practice?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I mean I don't think we were mirroring their practice, but we were staying with them longer than we should have.

All right, thank you. Deputy Kieran O'Donnell.

Thanks, Chairman. I just want to touch on one or two things in the guarantee-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Sure.

-----and then I want to deal with earnings per share. On the night of the guarantee, the proposal that you put, your formula of words-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----what did the guarantee cover?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I told your colleague that I thought it was deposits and bonds, but there may have been more technical language than that.

Did it cover senior bondholders?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think it probably did.

So, it covered all deposits and it covered all-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

All deposits certainly.

And all senior bondholders?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I would think so.

So, with due respect, Mr. Gleeson, that's akin to effectively a blanket guarantee.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, the word-----

Well, for instance, you're saying you'd no subordinated debt maturing?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, yes.

So, it's akin to a blanket guarantee; would you agree?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I'm happy to have it called that.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think the word "blanket" - just so that I don't get mixed up - is sometimes used as to whether the six or the four banks at ... it's not in that sense-----

The question is, when the banks were going in-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----were they looking for all deposits-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----and all senior bondholders to be covered?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes. It was ... as I said, the purpose was to assure people who lend money worldwide that it was sound.

Well then, in substance, the guarantee that arose from the Government, in substance, did it basically ... outside the fact that it included the other two institutions, Anglo and Irish Nationwide, in substance, was it the proposal you put forward?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, you say outside of the fact that it was not to include Anglo and Irish Nationwide.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I wouldn't regard that as a footnote, Deputy.

I didn't say it was a footnote, Mr. Gleeson. What I am saying is, the structure of the guarantee, outside ... apart from the participants-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, as I said-----

In principal, was it ... sorry, in substance, was it what you proposed?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

The guarantee, when it came out, and I looked at it a couple of months ago, is 12 pages of intense legal documents.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

And I didn't read it.

But for the ordinary man, the layman-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

For the formula of-----

-----it covered all deposits of the banks, all senior bondholders and lower, tier 2 subordinated debt, not all subordinated debt.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

My recollection-----

He needs some space to answer the question.

Mr. Gleeson?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----is that the formula for coverage, what was going to be covered by the guarantee, to pose the question in sort of public house language, was the one that we had asked for.

Okay. Secondly, I'm referring back to AIB, B1, Vol. 2 ... CBC ... C3b.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

C3b?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, that's the one that your colleague was-----

And it's page ... page 31. It's a memo from the Department of Finance-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----for the meeting-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

This is the one where I've already registered-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----that's it not in all respects according to my recollection.

Now, there's a meeting that took place at 41 minutes past 12, so it's-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Can you just show me ... I don't know this very-----

It's 00.41 on the top-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Oh yes, I see that, yes.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Was that the last meeting that you had with Government on the night of the guarantee?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I couldn't honestly say because I didn't keep a note, and maybe I should have, of the times we went in and out. All I know, that we arrived at half 9 and left at half 3.

And when you left, were you under the distinct impression at that time that the guarantee that was going to be put in place would involve the four institutions, in terms of the type of guarantee that came out, and both Anglo and Irish Nationwide, as you say, would be taken our or would be dismantled?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, that was the way the conversation with me had proceeded, but I did ... it was made perfectly clear to us that the Government were listening to what we had to say and would make their own decision. That was said in one of the meeting, "The Government are listening to what you have to say and will make their own decisions." But then we were off, trying to find this liquidity, as I explained to Senator O'Keeffe.

Were you ever informed that that liquidity would not be called upon by Government?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

We were, because I can remember someone complaining the day after, or ... we were informed the following day, I think, because I do remember, and I think it was someone from Bank of Ireland, saying "We expended some money in the effort and we won't get that back". Not very large money.

And on the issue of liquidity-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----and I am referring to the same-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Book.

-----book, and referring to basically what Mr. Sheehy has said-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----did you have discussions in AIB on liquidity matters?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Oh yes.

Okay, and what-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

And liquidity was reported, as you know, on a daily basis to the regulator.

What was your view in terms of your exposure to liquidity?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Exposure to liquidity? You mean in the sense of-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----problems of not having liquidity?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, that things were getting tighter. You know, Fannie and Freddie, the American public institutions, had themselves been put into public custody a few months before.

When did you anticipate you'd come under real pressure on liquidity?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, who's to say, you know? If house prices-----

Well, Mr. Sheehy says that you were going to be ... you could have difficulty ... "Within one month, we will be funding banks overnight."

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, well I don't recall that; you'd have to ask him that. I thought we were okay, I have to say. We certainly ... can I say this to you, Deputy O'Donnell: for all the time that I was chairman of AIB, down to June 2009, when I left, there was never a month when we failed to meet the regulator's liquidity requirements. Never.

And on the final thing in the guarantee - and it's coming from your own memo of AIB, B1, Vol. 1, C3b - if Mr Burrows had not rang you on Monday of 29 September-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----what would you have done? What would AIB have done?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't know, it may well ... I mean, that's a counterfactual that I really just don't know. It seems to me that we would have had conversations with the Government. It's hard to think that they wouldn't have .. the Government, or the Governor of the Central Bank wouldn't have summoned us to a crisis meeting.

But, yes, Bank of Ireland said that they were going ... they'd go on it solo if you didn't go with them?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, and I thought we should go. I mean, that's all I can say. I honestly couldn't tell you, but, I mean, when the Paulson plan collapsed, I remember watching it on television out in AIB when it got the thumbs down or whatever happened, we thought, you know, this is, this is-----

Well, did you feel any compulsion to go to Government on that night, like on that basis?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I mean, we had decided at that stage to go to Government so-----

Yes, but the Bank of Ireland had rang you to go?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, but ... would I have decided to go by myself? I'd have thought that there would have been contact, as there was daily contact between the chief executive and the people in the Department of Finance and the people in the Central Bank.

Can I move on to risk? And when you did your restructuring plan, you said your decision to expand into property was "misguided, and that its risk management and internal government systems were not as effective as they should have been in controlling this risk". Now, I'd a quick look through a couple of things and it's within AIB, B1, Vol. 2 and Vol-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Vol. 2 doesn't tell me now. Is it B?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

B1.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

B1, Vol.-----

And it's a report that AIB commissioned with Mercer Oliver Wyman.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And that's dated 22 March 2007, and it says, "Poised on the edge of greatness", from AIB. And then if I go to page 22 of that document, the case study targeting risk taking. Now, this is just over a year before the guarantee, the crash-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

This is page 22 in the book?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

This?

Yes. Page ... sorry, it's page 22, so go to page 11 of Mercer Oliver Wyman and then go to page 33.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Page 33 of this book?

Yes, 22 of the document. And you speak about targeting risk-taking.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Sorry, they speak of it.

Yes, but they obviously presented to the board.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, but we didn't commission ... I mean, we asked them to do a presentation. It wasn't to the board, it was to the management.

Okay, so did ye commission them to do this?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Oh, absolutely, yes. I mean, one of the things you do------

Well, in the amount of time ... did ye commission it as a board? Ye did.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, the management did.

The management did.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

This was the management------

The case study they put forward is Anglo Irish Bank.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

"Once poor performing subscale bank lacking strategy. Targeted higher risk ... Caught the wave of Irish property ... #1 performer." They were putting that forward as a case study.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

They were.

And then the second thing I want to go to is AIB B5, Vol. 1, which is basically-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Sorry, can you give me the reference again?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

B5, Vol. 1.

Yes, page 3. And that speaks about the remuneration committee and the structure ye put in play in March 2005, where you basically linked the shareholder ... the bonus for top management to the earnings per share.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes. That's customary, as you know, in most public companies.

But 50% of the share was if they ... the earnings per share, so the point is, were ye chasing the dragon? Were ye basically, with the earnings per share, looking for property? So, was your structure completely not factoring proper risk into account?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't understand your question.

My question really is, is that, in all the documents, ye are saying in one breath that ye are, in this proposal, your structuring plan, that you were misguided, and yet I find the remuneration committee report here saying that you put a structure in place where the bonuses were placed around the earnings per share-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Which were never met.

-----which were driven by property------

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

They didn't vest ... the hurdles were too high.

Did they make it prior to ... we'll say prior to 2008?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

There was some vesting occasionally, but in most of the years none of these payments were made. There was a lot of complaint that our performance pay hurdles were too high; people didn't get them. And, as I say, these were all externally validated by remuneration consultants.

And finally, what view did you take on the report from ... on this report you commissioned, Mercer Oliver and Wyman?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I mean, in retrospect, here they were praising a competitor of ours, I mean, like that, I'd say there was a scepticism about it, but when you ask a risk consultancy to come in and address you, you don't control what they tell you, but I suppose-----

Well, what weight ... in terms of the board, what should ye have done, in hindsight, on risk, that ye didn't do on property?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, in hindsight, I think we should not have stuck with our customers that long; we should have had more syndication and selling down of loans. We should have not depended on cross-collateralisation. The net worth of some of these borrowers was enormous sums of money, and we should have been more sceptical about them.

Mr. Gleeson, I want to return to a particular line of inquiry that the committee signalled to you prior to you coming in today, and that's the adequacy of the board oversight over the internal controls to ensure that risk is properly identified, managed and monitored.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Now, that's in particular regard to, under EEC ... EC Treaty, these rules, the bank was obliged ... the reference will come up there as I'm talking, so don't worry too much about that. Under the EC state aid rules the bank was obliged to submit a structuring plan to the EU Commission, and this was finalised in April 2010. I think it was then updated again in July 2011 and further revised in 2012. Now, in its revised plan - this is the 2012 EU restructuring plan - and it'll come up there as paragraph 3.9. It's in core documents AIB B17 at page 79-80, but I think it's going to be on your screen now as we're talking.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, I have it on the screen. Thank you.

Yes, and it is on the monitor above. The AIB acknowledges - and it's in brackets - "its decision to expand into property was misguided, and that its risk management and internal governance systems were not as effective as they should have been in controlling their risk." Could I ask you to comment on it?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I mean, that's a conclusion reached long after I left, obviously, and it's clear that our-----

But with respect of your period.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I mean, it's perfectly clear that our systems over ... I think our governance systems were good. I think the credit systems weren't strict or tough enough. I think the loan-to-value criteria should have been tougher, and I think we should not have gone as big as we did with individual developers, notwithstanding that we had 30 years' experience of them always paying back and simply getting more successful as they went along. But, I'm afraid I haven't ... this is, I say, a document that comes from after my time.

Okay, but do you think that the admission in it that the bank was misguided and that its risk management and internal governance systems were not as effective as they should be; now, are you in agreement or disagreement with that-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, firstly, the decision-----

-----because it's a judgment on your period as chairperson-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes. In so far as it suggests that there was a decision to move into property, I don't think that was a decision, it was just the way things developed. As to risk management, it clearly failed us and wasn't adequate. There can be no doubt about that; the proof of the pudding is in the history. It was not adequate. And I think it comes back to two things again: too much faith in the mathematical models and believing the soft landing consensus.

Okay, thank you. Deputy Michael McGrath. Deputy, ten minutes.

Thank you very much, Chair. You're very welcome, Mr. Gleeson. Twenty billion euro, Mr. Gleeson, €20 billion is the amount of money that the Irish State had to put forward to rescue AIB. In your six years as chairman of AIB, did you ever envisage that day coming?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, I didn't, no. I did not. Indeed I didn't.

And what's your reaction at a personal, at a human level, of the scale of that investment?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I mean, I've said to you that it's been clearly a daunting experience. I mean, I did my level best, as I said. I prepared for this job, I worked hard at it, worked full time at it, as you would have to; became a seven day a week job. And I am extremely regretful, and that's a sentiment that's never going to leave me. I know that doesn't sound adequate to the extent of the problem. I'm greatly gratified that the new management have got to a position where they can tell you and me that they hope to pay it all back, but it doesn't take away from the terrible event and I feel it keenly, if you're asking me that.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't want, perhaps, to say much more than that.

And I'm sure you know, for example, €20 billion is more than twice what we spend every year as a country on our entire education system, for example?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I accept that, Deputy. I mean, I have had a commitment in the past to education in various ways and I think it's the answer to most of the problems of the world, but I think there is, given that you're focusing on it, I think there is a tendency, not in this room but outside, to think that the banks brought down the country and that there was nothing else involved. And that was referred to this day one fortnight ago, just 14 days ago, by Governor Honohan in a speech that he made in Paris about facts and myths of the Irish banking crisis, and myth number two was, "It is chiefly the bank guarantee that brought about the nature of fiscal austerity and generally crippled the Irish economy." That's a myth, he says. He says €60 billion into the banks, €20 billion will be paid back, but the deficit that was occasioned by the mis-matching Government revenue and expenditure is €30 billion a year, something between 100 and two ... now, let's be clear: I had nothing to do with that. I am responsible-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----in my role in terms of the banking collapse, and I'm not trying to get away from that-----

Yes, and that's why you're here today.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----but I think it's not unimportant to say that there are other factors at play of which you're completely conscious.

Sure. Just can I take you to page 22 of your opening statement, paragraph 90, you say:

It seems clear now that the regulation and supervision of the Irish Banking system and of Anglo and Irish Nationwide in particular, was inadequate and that the operations of those two banks, as the most aggressive lenders in the market undoubtedly affected the way other market participants conducted their business.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Why do you feel the need to draw a distinction there between the manner in which Anglo and Nationwide were regulated and supervised and the manner in which AIB was regulated and supervised?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well-----

Do you think that the regulation of your bank was any less inadequate than the regulation of those banks, if that's-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, I suppose my view is that the difficulties that arose were much more marked in the other two institutions. I mean, the extent of the loan losses was more significant in some ways.

I think that in September AIB was in better condition and if you look at the outturn Deputy, look at it simply as that. Of the €64 billion that the State has had to put out to rescue the banking system, AIB and Bank of Ireland are well ahead in paying it off. AIB will repay hopefully what is owes, but the €35 billion that went into Nationwide and Anglo, only a very small proportion of that, I understand, will be recovered. That's why there is a difference between them, that's all I say.

And your reference there to both of those institutions -----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

My reference may be a bit unfair to the regulation that way, it's -----

Well it seems to draw a distinction.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well no, I think that's unfair and you are right to draw it to my attention. It's more in terms of outcomes the distinction should be and I accept your correction on that.

And your reference to both of those institutions as the most aggressive lenders in the market, undoubtedly affecting the way other market participants conducted their business, and you've told a number of anecdotes around the Anglo story and the how it, perhaps inadvertently, impacted on the way AIB conducted its business. But for ... I suppose for many people watching the proceedings, they might regard that as the "he made me do it" excuse. That Anglo "made us do it".

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It certainly shouldn't be, there is no excuse. I am trying to explain, I mean ... I think, you know, what am I trying to do with the committee here today? What I have thought myself is try and assist you by giving an eye witness account of what it seemed at the time. There are 300 books written worldwide about the cause of the 2008 crisis. I have nothing to add to that. All I can do is come here and try and tell you, as honestly and frankly as I can, what it seemed like at the time, from a participant. That is all I'm trying to do. I am certainly not trying to excuse what went on Deputy, and I want that to be clear.

Sure. Can I ask you Mr. Gleeson, when you state that it was your view then, and remains your view now, that AIB was solvent at the end of September 2008. What is your definition of solvency?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Solvency is that ... I am not going to go into accountancy definitions but broadly the thing is that you could pay off your debts and you'd be able to -----

And if your assets exceed the value of your liabilities -----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Exactly. And I draw attention to some of your colleagues, to the fact that property prices hadn't fallen by then. We all think they did but in truth that was a terrible event that really had hardly kicked off at that stage, and that's the main reason I say it.

You said earlier on that the real trouble was in 2009 in terms of the collapse in property values, but can I put it to you and your assertion that AIB was solvent at the end of September 2008, that less than three months later on 21 December 2008, the Government made an announcement that there would be a capital injection of €2 billion into AIB.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Less than three months later.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That is so. More capital was needed.

But why was that necessary if the bank was fully solvent?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I may be wrong Deputy, I mean someone asked me did I think it was solvent. I think it became insolvent later, that is all I can say to you. But nobody, neither you nor I, can work out when all the assets of AIB - if you valued them on a sort of liquidation basis - what they would have come to. It is impossible to say because of the dynamic that de Larosière described, de Larosière and Nyberg I should say.

Sure. You describe in detail how the risk function worked within the bank and you cite for example that the risk function had between 150 and 200 people at its peak perhaps -----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Eventually.

----- and you had a chief risk officer and so forth.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And the audit committee had a very important role, and the top ten risks were presented to the board.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

Was the risk of excessive exposure to the property and development sector -----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well the credit risk -----

----- regularly featuring in that regard?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes. Again you have been sent, although you can't have read everything, but you'll see the board dashboard. That was something that I came up with, with the chief risk officer, that every month every member of the board would get the risk dashboard. It was against the contingency that some board member would say "We were never told about this". It had the ten biggest risks. Back in 2006-07 it was "Will we be able to complete the Basel transformation?" Earlier than that, perhaps at my behest it was regulatory conformance, "Are we obeying the law in everything we do?" That was something that I was very keen on. Then subsequently it became credit risk.

Can I ask you, Mr. Gleeson, about the issue of interest being rolled up and that practice? Because I think some light was shed on that yesterday by NAMA that, for example, of the €74 billion of par value of loans they acquired, €9 billion of that was actually just interest being rolled up and that €9 billion more or less related to the €40 billion in the land and development book. It emerged at one of your own board meetings on 8 October 2008 when questions were being asked about interest being rolled up that the bank didn't have access to that information readily.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Absolutely, that was a very bad piece of missing architecture that the management information system wasn't able to produce the information on that key indicator. I agree with you, it should have been able to find that. I think what they said, I haven't got it in front of me now, but it had to be done manually I think.

Yes. To be fair to you it says that the information was not available from the bank's accounting system and that a manual exercise would be required to obtain that information.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That's an indefensible gap, I agree.

Many of those loans, as we now know, were being recorded as being fully performing, even though not a cent was being repaid on them?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I just don't know that. I have heard that said.

Across the system.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Across the system, I don't know how bad AIB was in that respect, I just don't know enough to tell you. I think Mr. McDonagh's and Mr. Daly's evidence was across the whole banking system. I would like to think that we weren't as bad as the worst, but I just don't know is the answer.

Very briefly Chairman. On the night in question, 29 September, you cite a number of examples whereby you had the clear impression that a different solution would be found for Anglo and INBS, that they would be either taken out or nationalised.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That was what was being discussed is what I would say.

Who gave you that clear impression?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well it was just ... I suppose that that was what was discussed. I mean when Governor Hurley says "Can you get €5 billion to keep Anglo going to the weekend?" it wouldn't make any sense if you were going to guarantee six banks the next morning for us to be providing liquidity to the weekend. It was inconsistent with that. And that was an effort that was ongoing, not me, but Eugene Sheehy talking to officials during the night - we are doing this or we might bid at an ECB auction tomorrow. So that idea of Bank of Ireland and ourselves saving Anglo until the big event could take place at the weekend - and public companies often go till the weekend when they have a crisis because you get 48 hours when the stock markets aren't on top of you - would be inconsistent with the six-bank guarantee, so that's why I believe that solution was in the ether late into the night.

Mr. Gleeson, you tell us in your extended opening statement that after October 2002, when you became deputy chairman of Allied Irish Banks, you went on a series of upskilling, educational programmes.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

You attended banking courses at University College Dublin, the London Stock Exchange, Harvard Business School, Stanford University and INSEAD Paris, which describes itself as the business school for the world. You attended educational events at the International Institute of Finance and the International Monetary Conference. No doubt in some circles these would be seen as very prestigious institutions. Can I ask you Mr. Gleeson, did the instruction include the fact that within capitalist banking internationally, systemic crises erupted with great regularity all over the world, and that these sprang from very definite causes which were therefore avoidable?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Just to correct the preamble to your question. Some of the courses I did were about banking, but most of the courses were about corporate governance, running a board. In so far as I did instruction on banking, some in Dublin and some with INSEAD, I don't believe that issue was covered.

Mr. Gleeson, arguably the first speculative bubble and crash was what became known as tulip mania in Holland in 1637. Jan Brueghel the Younger has a fascinating painting about it. The impression is being given that what happened in Ireland in the crash was, you said a 100 year event. But in 1999, three years before you became deputy governor, Oxford University Press published a paper by a man called Peter Englund, Stockholm School of Economics. He wrote about a study that was done by a colleague of his, published the year before, a study of 30 major bank crises, not from 100 years ago, but from the 1980s, including three of the most advanced industrial countries in the world, namely, Norway, Finland and Sweden. The common patterns that he outlines are in paragraph 2: deregulation, overly rapid credit expansion, sustained increase in asset prices, a bubble, the bubble bursting, collapse of asset prices accompanied by non-performing loans, acute banking crises, credit crunch, government salvage banks.

Will you agree with me that that would be, or not, an uncanny synopsis of the bubble and crash in Ireland? But this was from 1999, which-----

Can I just make one brief interjection, Deputy Higgins. I'm not too sure if Mr. Gleeson has read that paper before but I think you're generally ... because Bill Black, when he was in before us kind of gave a similar type of modelling.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, I haven't read the paper, but-----

To be clear, I'm not asking Mr. Gleeson if he was aware of this-----

Yes, but due process-----

-----but aware-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, I mean, I've seen this issue, and it is an important issue that you raise, Deputy, that to what extent do we learn from history and I've seen it written that ... by a historian within the last six months, that the only lesson we learn from history is that we never learn the lessons of history.

I have to let him respond now as well, Deputy Higgins, please.

Yes, but I want to ... Why not?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think that's a sort of deep-seated question that would be better asked of academics. I've seen John Lanchester, writing about two months ago - the well-known economic and financial journalist - say that ... he gives the following explanation for it: he says that-----

I really don't have time for this.

I have to allow the Deputy ... I'll give you a bit of time but I have to allow the witness to respond. If ... I tried to make-----

Yes, but Mr. Gleeson's proposed question earlier-----

Keep your questions short if you want a longer response.

Why did everyone get it so wrong? They didn't, Mr. Gleeson ...this is the point I would put to you. For example, were the critiques, very perceptive of David McWilliams, an economist, ever discussed on the board of Allied Irish Banks when he was predicting that the credit expansion was just going crazy and that it would finish in tears?

There's three different questions there, Deputy. I need to allow Mr. Gleeson to respond to the three of them now.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm going to respond, Deputy, because I think ... Chairman, because I think it's one of my few rights is that when a question is asked I'm probably entitled to-----

Indeed, and-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----some opportunity to answer-----

-----I'll facilitate you with that right there now.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

-----however inadequately.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

So I'm going back to your previous question, Deputy Higgins, to answer it as best I can. I was about to tell you, and you probably know this, that John Lanchester, who is a respected commentator says that economists ... that economics ... one of the reasons that economics is so bad at predicting the future is because economic history has been downgraded in economics departments in universities and that ... when I was learning my economics a long, long time ago, economic history was compulsory, but now the feeling, among some economists at least, is that it's all in the formulae, it's all in the mathematical formulae. The mathematical formulae capture the history, therefore you don't need to learn the history, and that if there was more attention to history ... so I agree with your point that attending to the history ... on the other hand, Deputy ... let me just finish. On the other hand-----

The witness is talking down the clock, Mr. Chairman.

Excuse me now, Deputy, please. I'm going to make an interjection here. And I monitor the period of time that Deputies take to ask a question. I try to moderate that by facilitating the witness with the exact amount of time, if possible, and if the witness is short in his response, fair enough, but there is a due process. If there is a very extensive question being answered, or questioned and then to be answered, I will give a bit of overtime at the end of the process, but there was three questions there, Deputy. I have to allow the witness to respond to the three of them.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

If the Deputy could give them to me one by one now, because I was answering the previous question and I can't-----

Mr. Gleeson, were the warnings of economists like David McWilliams ever discussed or taken seriously on the board or by yourself?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Absolutely. I mean, we would have economic ... addresses from economic experts. For example, I said John FitzGerald and Alan Ahearne, two excellent people, whom I both admire ... we would bring them in and they would talk about what the economics profession felt at the time. But can I just say this: you will be aware, as well as everyone else in this room, that economists frequently disagree. I mean, you only have to open up any American journal at the moment and you'll see "Krugman versus X", and so on. There's always two schools and we did the best we could with the schools. That's all I can say.

But you had historic precedents from Sweden only a few years before you became chairman. But I need to move on because of time. You put a lot of emphasis, and may I put it to you, Mr. Gleeson, you blame Anglo for a lot of things-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't blame. It's an explanation, not blaming.

Yes, it's an explanation but you said it was inevitable that we were drawn too much into Anglo's wake. Now, is it really credible that, you know, in Irish banking you had a pied piper called Anglo spinning tunes of excessive credit, profiteering, etc., and that the whole pack-----

Be very mindful now, Deputy. Be very mindful, Deputy. Be measured.

-----were in thrall and dutifully followed. Is that credible?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, let me explain it a bit better, because I think I haven't explained it, Deputy, and your question certainly suggests that I have failed absolutely to explain it. If you were the manager, in a good sized country town, a big country town, of AIB, and you've had two big builders as your clients for 25 years and then they go across the street to Anglo, it's inevitable, I think, that you get reaction to that sort of thing. It's-----

Because it affects your profits?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Because it affects all sorts of things: your success as a job as a manager, the job that you're paid to do. It's ... I'm talking about human nature in commerce, and I don't think it's disgraceful either.

But mainly, am I correct, it would affect the bank's profits?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I don't know if the average manager in a branch in a country town is waking up in the morning saying, "Now I must worry about the bank's profits today." I don't think that's quite the mindset. I think we want to be successful in this branch. We want to keep our customers.

Mr. Gleeson, are banks not there primarily to make profits?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Absolutely.

And I haven't time to go through it but I compared your profits to Anglo profits during the bubble and you were massively ahead. How much profit did you need to be satisfied?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, with respect, now, we were an infinitely bigger institution. We had enormously more employees, enormously more social responsibilities in terms of running ATM machines for free, for instance. Anglo didn't do any of that, Deputy.

You said, Mr. Gleeson, at an extraordinary general meeting, again if I may say, spreading responsibility, "We drank too [much] from the national cup of confidence." Would it be more honest to say that you drank too much from the bankers' cup of greed for profits and that was what drove you?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, I think that would be a dishonest thing to say.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Because it's not true.

Why were you chasing Anglo then?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I wasn't chasing Anglo. I was trying to ... as I said, my function here is to try and explain how things were at the time and you had ... this bubble grew up. Anglo had a role in it. There was some very good people in Anglo. They took some of our good people. And the price of building land moved on ... became the object of speculation, as you say.

Deputy Higgins, I'll have to ask you to desist from questioning that is laden with an implied value judgment in it. Ask the question but don't make the value judgment in it please.

Yes, but I'm speaking to an experienced barrister who is well able to stand up and-----

And all the more reason-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That's me asking the questions.

I know, but all the more reason to have your question legally framed.

Mr. Gleeson, you spoke about ethical behaviour, and between 1996 and 2006, a PTSB analysis found that each year the price of an average home increased-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----by the equivalent of the average industrial wage.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

'96 to ... give me the dates again.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

2006, yes, the decade, yes.

Each year, requiring young working people to have mortgages extended from 20 years' duration to 40 years, into their retirement, and at unsustainable levels. Now, can I ask you, in your view, is it moral or ethical, do you think, that inordinate profiteering and speculation in building land and in housing by banks, developers and bondholders should enslave a generation of young working people to that extent, with all the suffering and the horror that has ensued after for them? Do you think that is ethical or moral?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I'm not in favour of immorality or slavery or suffering. So far as your question relates to the issue of the price of building land, I think that there is a serious political and social issue as to how that should be controlled, and the price of building land, and you probably know that building land becomes the object of speculation, and you probably also know that 40 years ago, this very issue was addressed after an increase of 500% in the cost of building land in Dublin between 1963 and 1971.

This is a social resource, it should have some element of, in my view, State control. You can't increase the number of building land ... amount of building land around Dublin. And that issue - that very issue - was put to an expert committee in 1973 ... 1971, reporting in 1973, under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Kenny.

Wrap up now Mr. Gleeson, very quickly to answer the question.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I have been asked the question and I am going to ... and I'll try and finish within 30 seconds.

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Mr. Justice Kenny reported. If you look at that report, it's lain on the shelves for 42 years. He proposed ten solutions. One ... the first was nationalisation of building land.

Yes ... and I'm-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Eventually he proposed-----

Not a new question now, Deputy Higgins.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I want to finish my ... can I finish my answer? I simply say, the legal intellectual spade work in relation to the price of building land has been done. That's all.

Not a new question. Not a new question, you are out of time. You are out of time.

Mr. Gleeson-----

If this is a new question, I'm not taking it.

Okay. All right.

Thank you very much. Okay, I'm moving towards the wrap up because we do have a timeframe to keep to and we do indicate to witnesses as to what that general timeframe will be. There will be flexibility with witnesses with a degree of overrun, but we are not going to be repeating the whole morning session going into the afternoon. Right, Deputy Doherty and Deputy Phelan, and I am going to be tight here because I have a little bit of a wrap up to do as well. I am allotting five minutes - with a bit of flexibility each - to both of you but I will be very, very-----

Okay, I'll try and be brief. Mr. Gleeson we are going back to Project Omega.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

You said Project Omega was quite a different project.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I hope I'm right about that, Deputy.

Okay, so going ... to ask this question, did AIB-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

If you could give me a date on it, it might help me.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Or roughly, even.

The question you ... the question I had earlier on, and I have got the evidence book now was, did AIB ever consider taking over Anglo Irish Bank?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

The answer to that was "No".

No? Never. Now I want to refer to AIB, C3b, Vol. 2.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

C3b, Vol. 2? I have that.

And page 45 to 47? Which is an extract of Project Omega.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

It is a 64-page document that was reported to AIB plc on 24 November 2008.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

And it is to the acquisition or takeover of a financial institution.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

What is ... who is Omega in this report?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well I ... there are elements of confidentiality with this. I mean I can tell you, but should I tell you is the answer ... I don't know.

Yes, you should.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think it was Irish Life.

It was Irish Life, okay. In relation to the business overview, would you have been ... would this have been presented to you as chairperson of the board? This report?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It would have come to the board, yes we would have been given it to read a few days before a board meeting.

Okay, so Irish Life, you believe that is Omega and this was the-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I hope I'm right, but I think that's right.

Okay, well let's go to page 47. The business overview suggests that ... and we will look at the group structure. It says Omega plc, which you believe is Irish Life, had, in H1-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I am just not certain about this.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm now worried that I've-----

H1, 2008. The total assets were €101 billion, which equates to the total assets of Anglo Irish Bank at that reporting period. Well-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It was Anglo then.

The loans was €68 billion-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Maybe I was confused. I've ... I've only redacted copies Deputy and I only have two pages. But we never considered, I think, taking over Anglo.

But you have a 64-page report-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----commissioned by AIB-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----reported to the board of AIB eight weeks after the guarantee-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----which looked at taking over Anglo Irish Bank and advised against it, but suggested that there were benefits in doing so as well.

Space to respond. Space to respond.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm unfortunately uncertain about which institution we are talking about. And I don't think it is Anglo. But I am sorry that I can't make that clearer.

Okay, let me go back-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

But can I just say this to you?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

We weren't fit to take anything over at this stage. A 64-page document would have been paid ... prepared over months and months. It was brought to the board and we rejected it.

Okay, the document talks to the guarantee, it says in it's executive summary "While the Guarantee provides respite it does not fix the structural funding issue at Omega.", which-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well then it sounds more like ... what it sounds-----

Now, can I get clarity on this here? Do you now believe that this is ... Omega is Anglo Irish Bank, or not?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't know, but I'm going to ... if you want me to go look at the full document, I will get it out and I will get unredacted copies.

And I'll talk while you are looking for that. H1, Anglo Irish Bank-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I can't look and listen.

No, no, no I-----

Well the half 1 reports of Irish ...Anglo Irish Bank in 31 March 2008 reported assets of €101 billion, loans of €69 billion - in this report the loans are €68 billion - and the deposits in Anglo's reporting period was €54.5 billion ... this is €55 billion.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Okay.

Can we now agree that this is Anglo Irish Bank that we are talking about?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm believing what you are saying.

Okay, can I make one intervention here, because I ... I think this is material evidence and I can ... I will give flexibility to a witness if they can't ask or answer a question right here and now. But could I ask you, Mr. Gleeson, that you would revert back to this committee with your clarity actually on this.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Certainly, I mean my practical problem ... it looks as if I am not trying to answer your question, I am. But I was sent, you know, 800 pages last Friday and I haven't been able to read them all, I'm sorry.

I understand that.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

And it is rather confusing. I find the denomination of your books a bit difficult as well. I am sure you've the same experience.

No, I understand that. I understand that, Mr. Gleeson. We have a lot of evidence, as investigators, to go through ourselves. What I'm finding difficult to understand as ... as chairperson of AIB, in a report that was commissioned by AIB to take over a bank which was ... had €101 billion of assets ... that you gave testimony to this committee that you never considered such an event. You say, "I wasn't having it. Project Omega was a different project". You suggested it was another institution.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It's clearly that I'm confused, Deputy, but if ... the only circumstance which I think it would have arisen is this, is that there was this discussion about the healthy banks taking ...I mentioned that earlier ... taking over some of the invalided banks, if I can put it that way. And it may be that the Government asked us to look at it at that account. But, I have to say, I can't bring it to mind.

Mr. Gleeson, you suggested earlier, again ... and I just want to ask you, because obviously, you know, witnesses are under oath here-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm here to tell the truth.

And I have no doubt about that there. But did you not suggest to this committee afterwards that nobody in Government circles suggested that you take over ... look at taking over Anglo Irish Bank?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I mean, not at the formal meeting - if that's what you are talking about - on the night of the guarantee. But there were certainly discussions afterwards ... I think about us taking over some of the smaller players.

Yes. There's another project, which is Project Indigo, which, I expect, refers to Irish Life, which was a takeover-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

And I'm confused, I'm afraid, as I said. These code names have confused me, I'm sorry.

I can understand the code names. But the generality of the ... this is what I'm finding ... if you could explain to the committee ... as chairperson, as somebody of the standing that you have, that you would not recollect a commissioned document reported to the board as chairperson that you would've seen, as you said, a couple of days before hand.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I'm afraid it has slipped-----

That you could not recollect a takeover of Anglo Irish Bank, which was widely in the media at that time. Indeed the report ... the report itself says that Anglo Irish Bank would need in the region of ... what is it ... "Brokers are suggesting €3.0bn - €4.6bn [losses]-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I mean, we couldn't have taken it over. It doesn't seem to me to have been a process with any reality to it, Deputy. That is all I will say.

As I have already stated, and following on from Deputy Doherty's-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I will follow up that.

Yes, I would request that you would do that, Mr. Gleeson, please. Deputy Phelan.

Thank you, Chair. Mr. Gleeson, I have two areas that I want to cover so I'll be as brief as I can and I hope you can be too, time is ... the Chairman is strict. What did you see as the main purpose, Mr. Gleeson, of the round table ... the main outcome indeed ... the round table discussions that took place with the Central Bank post the publication of financial stability reports in 2004?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, I don't recall the round table discussions but we would have interactions with the Central Bank. I suppose we felt we were, feeding into the financial stability reports and getting feedback from it. It was that sort of thing, it was trading information about where they felt the economy and the banking system was and getting information back. But I can't bring the specific discussions to mind, I'm sorry to say, Deputy.

The other thing ... point that I wanted to make briefly in relation to Deputy Higgins's question - and you've mentioned it several times - about good customers crossing the streets of provincial towns.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I use that as a sort of an ... image-----

I know but Anglo Irish Bank did not have a commercial network in provincial Ireland.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Ah well, with respect, Deputy, I didn't mean that it was actually looking at them across the street. I meant that they might go into Limerick or Cork to the Anglo branch-----

You repeated it a number of times in answer to different-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well, can I then correct it ... if you took me literally that it meant crossing the road-----

We'll take it as a general analogy.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think it was an analogy. "Crossing the road" is an expression that is often used in businesses. Solicitors use it, certainly.

Indeed, as is eating someone else's lunch is ... is an analogy as well.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Grabbing your business is suppose what I meant.

The final area that I wanted to touch on is the issue of directors' compliance statements. I was interested in your comments earlier. You referenced Professor Ahearne's testimony where he spoke about the need for, you know, more firm regulation.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

You were often quoted in the media, prior to the collapse, as being one of the leading bankers who did not, to say the very least, favour firm regulation. Now I want to put a direct quote-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

That's not true.

-----I want to put a quote to you from The Irish Times, 1 August 2005, an article titled "Big banks oppose vetting of financial manners ... managers".

On the issue of directors' compliance statements, which the financial regulatory authority had started a consultation process----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, I remember.

----first, firstly did you take part in the consultation process as chairman of AIB?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I might well have.

Is the witness familiar with the documentation that Deputy Phelan's----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I, I think I know what the Deputy----

Okay, sure.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I was resistant to aspects of it and I'll tell you what they were.

Okay. Well I want to put this particular quote in excerpts of what you wrote in opposition to it, you reported in that article that I mentioned, 1 August 2005, The Irish Times, as stating that it would have, and I quote, " a chilling or discouraging effect on good tax compliant and law-abiding candidates who would simply prefer to maintain their privacy." I want to know do you stand over that? Do you stand over that comment?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Firstly, I had two reservations about the compliance standards. The proposal at one stage was that you'd ask directors for details of their personal finances at a level that wasn't being asked in London by the regulator there, and we were competitors for trying to ... one of the big problems getting bankers to be directors of AIB ... you couldn't use Irish bankers, you couldn't use former AIB people, that wouldn't be good governance. You couldn't use Bank of Ireland because they would be bringing Bank of Ireland secrets, so you had to look to the UK. And we thought that having to give a much more detailed account of your personal finances in a way that you wouldn't get asked if you were a bank director in London was a bad idea.

The other reservation, which I ... on one occasion saw misrepresented - I'm all in favour of compliance and people being asked to sign up to compliance ... but I remember once, for instance ... and Chairman, this ... I'll conclude on this ... getting a draft compliance statement which said that the directors would confirm that the bank is in compliance with all statutory regulations and rules. Now, if the stairs in the bank in Ballybofey had a safety feature that they were missing - I just want to answer - I couldn't tell whether everyone was in absolute compliance all the time, no one could.

Good example there, all statutory regulations and rules. The rule that was mentioned early on about the 200% concentration and 250%, you were not in compliance with that, and if, if that requirement-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Deputy, it wasn't a statutory-----

I know, I understand. But if it came out of this consultation, which you are on the record as having opposed, would that not have been a beneficial development?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think you're mixing up cows and crocodiles here, I'm afraid. I think the regulation as you describe it, the standard as the Central Bank calls it, which they used as an aid to their supervisory duties, is a different thing than having, you know, not obeying the environmental protection Act because the way you're dealing with the rubbish in a branch, or something like that.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I think there are differences.

There's significant differences, that's the point.

Okay. Can I just ... to round off that point and to move towards a wrap-up, Mr. Gleeson, did you ever contact the Financial Regulator re issues arising from supervisory visits either to challenge the regulator on positions in the regulatory office, or to lobby him in regard to maybe taking a lighter touch?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Never. I never did either of those two things.

Okay. Thank you very much. Right. Can I also, just in regard to the guarantee and just to round that off-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

What's your current view on the appropriateness of the guarantee?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I was fearful I might be asked that, Chairman, and I don't think-----

I don't want to frighten you, I just want you to answer.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, and you're not frightening me. I don't honestly think that I have sufficient qualifications to give a view on that. And I mean that, that's not dodging the question. I mean you've heard views, I know because I looked at them, there's some of the witnesses I did look at - Professor Ahearne, Governor Honohan, and Mr. Nyberg, all of whom are Central Bank experienced people. They're the appropriate people to ask. You've had other comments from people that I wouldn't rate as highly. But I don't think, given that I've been out of this space for six years, that I can usefully add to the stock of information of the committee by giving an opinion on that.

Okay, but you used a football analogy yourself earlier with regard to referees. You were togged out on the pitch the night of the guarantee and-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Can I put it this way-----

And every time I put on my television or radio there's former footballers talking about their careers and all the rest of it, and how the team today plays-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Hurlers on the ditch, I think-----

In this regard I'd like you to-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No I don't think so, and I mean-----

-----with regard to expansiveness or anything else-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

I don't think so. To extend the hurling analogy, on a final note, you know, if the hurlers on the ditch are All Stars they're worth listening to, but I'd be more Junior B in this particular circumstance.

Okay. Finally, Mr. Gleeson, just we discussed the wider bank ... wider banking sector this morning; we also spoke about the general behaviour of AIB. In regard to yourself, did you personally, in your tenure as chairperson of AIB, do you feel that you got anything wrong during that time?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Oh lots of things wrong, very obviously. I mean we've talked about a lot of them this morning. Clearly, I did.

Okay. And particularly, is there any one regret that you have about it?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Well I mean, not one moment where I could have turned off the tap, miraculously said "We're closing ... close every branch tomorrow, tell them they're ... we're not giving any more loans." I don't have reflections like that. I don't think there was a big turning point in the road but clearly the mistakes were made.

Okay. And that brings me to my very final question, because you said about no more loans and in an opening comment earlier today you said no more loans either as being the approach. But could I put it to you, and particularly in light of NAMA's testimony yesterday, it was ... it would be suggested by NAMA's testimony that it wasn't to stop giving loans, but it was to change the methodology by which loans were being given in terms of looking at the cross-securitisation-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes.

-----where personal guarantees-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Yes, I mean I think the history that is now seen in AIB, and I obviously haven't seen it because I wasn't there, but if you look at some of the reports that were done afterwards. There's one in 2009 by a Mr. Treble, for instance, it analyses that the credits ... the credit assessments systems weren't as strong as they should have been have.

And there was a question I put to, I think, Mr. Daly yesterday, and he said it maybe be better placed to the banks. So-----

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

Sorry, I missed that, Chairman.

I put a question to Mr. Daly, I think yesterday, and he said ... in his response he said maybe the banks can answer that better. And it comes back to my earlier question which was about the banking behaviour, the banking behaviours with regard to cross-collateralisations, cross-exposures, letters of guarantee and all the rest. So I asked Mr. Daly did the banks, to his view, behave in a deferential manner to major developers and lenders.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

In my case, absolutely not, I think I only know ... knew two developers ever, and one of them didn't bank with AIB; he was the one I knew best. And the other one I knew him only slightly as a neighbour, and I never discussed financial matters with him. So I never deferred to anybody.

Okay. Thank you very much Mr. Gleeson. To wrap things up, is there anything further you'd like to add or comment on?

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

No, but I'm sure when I leave I will think of things I should have said, but thank you very much-----

We all suffer from that fault, Mr Gleeson. Thank you very much.

Mr. Dermot Gleeson

It's called the principle of delayed eloquence.

Okay. So with that said I'd like to thank Mr. Gleeson for his participation and for his positive engagement with the inquiry. The witness is now excused, and I propose that we suspend until 2.30 p.m., at which time we will resume with Mr. Donal Forde. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 1.10 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.

AIB - Mr. Donal Forde

As we have a quorum I propose that the committee now goes back into public session for this afternoon's hearings. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We'll commence with session two, public hearing with Mr. Donal Forde, former managing director AIB in the Republic of Ireland. The Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis is now resuming in public session and can I ask members and those in the Public Gallery to ensure that their mobile phone devices are switched off? We will now hear from Mr. Donal Forde. Mr. Forde served as the managing director of AIB bank, Republic of Ireland, from 2002 to 1 May 2009 and was responsible for AIB's retail banking operations in the Republic of Ireland. Mr. Forde joined AIB in 1978. During a long career with AIB, he held a variety of senior executive roles within their capital markets and retail businesses. Mr. Forde you're very welcome before the committee this afternoon.

Mr. Donal Forde

Thank you Chairman.

Before I hear from the witness, I just wish to advise the witness that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If you are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to do so, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. I will remind members and those present that there are currently criminal proceedings ongoing and further criminal proceedings are scheduled during the lifetime of the inquiry, which overlap with the subject matter of the inquiry. Therefore, the utmost caution should be taken not to prejudice those proceedings. Members of the public are reminded that photography is prohibited in the committee room.

To assist the smooth running of the inquiry, we will display certain documents on the screens here in the committee room. For those sitting in the Gallery, these documents will be displayed on the screen to your left. Members of the public and journalists are reminded that these documents are confidential and they should not publish any documents as displayed. They are there to assist proceedings when evidence is being given.

The witness has been directed to attend this meeting of the inquiry into the banking crisis and you have been furnished with booklets of core documents. These are before the committee and will be relied upon at times when questioning, and form part of the evidence of the inquiry. With that said, could I now ask the clerk to administer the oath of affirmation to Mr. Forde.

The following witness was sworn in by the Clerk to the Committee:
Mr. Donal Forde, former Managing Director, AIB.

Thank you. Mr. Forde, if I can invite you to make your opening address to the committee please.

Mr. Donal Forde

Thank you, Chairman, and thank you for the invitation to appear before the committee. In that invitation I was asked to give evidence relating to a number of lines of inquiry in the context of three positions which I held in my employment with the AIB Group, specifically in the years from 1999 to 2009. Those three roles were general manager of the strategic development unit in the bank, managing director of AIB Bank, Republic of Ireland, and as director of group strategy at AIB plc. I just want to take the three of these in turn for a while if I might.

I was general manager of the bank's strategic development unit from September 1999 to April 2002. That was a strategic marketing role. In that position I had no responsibility for credit management or credit strategy. I was appointed as managing director of AIB Bank in April 2002, and I held that position until February 2009, you may have mentioned May 2009 earlier. I believe it is principally in the context of this role that I can be of assistance to the inquiry. AIB Bank was the domestic retail banking division of AIB Group. As its managing director I was responsible for all aspects of the division's activity in accordance with AIB Group policies and governance. Specifically in the context of credit strategies, credit approval or credit risk management, activities were all conducted within policies that were set out by the central group risk management function, endorsed by the group executive committee and approved by the board of directors.

Thereafter, these activities were supervised by the group risk management function with support from the internal audit function. As managing director of AIB Bank, I did not have any credit discretion. My responsibility was to manage the business to the highest possible level of performance in all respects, and to do so within the credit risk policies and credit risk management frameworks that were set and ordained at group level. Let me make it clear that, in outlining the corporate governance structure within which the AIB Bank division operated, I am doing that for the purpose of clarity. I am not in any way suggesting that I am without a share of the responsibility for the failure of the bank. I was part of the group executive management committee through this period and I became a member of the AIB Group board in 2007. My voice would have been an influential one if I had questioned or challenged our credit strategy and credit positioning at these fora, but I did not do so. While I had expected a faltering of economic activity and a pull back in the property market, I simply did not foresee the scale of the collapse that was to follow. It is clear now that AIB credit policies were inappropriate at that advanced stage of the economic cycle. At the time, I believe that the economy was on a more resilient and sustainable footing than subsequently proved to be the case.

With the wisdom of hindsight, this was a serious misjudgment on my part and on the part of many others within the bank and outside. My own failing in this respect is a matter of deep personal regret and I am very conscious of the implications of that misjudgment for very many people. In late January and February of 2009, I was informed by the AIB Group chief executive that I was being moved from my post as managing director of AIB Bank to a newly created position as director of group strategy. However, that position never materialised in the way that was indicated to me at the outset. I found myself from that point completely removed from discussions at executive management and board level, and without objectives or direction in terms of a work agenda. That situation persisted until I decided to leave the bank nine months later in November 2009. Throughout my time in this role, I had no involvement in the management of the bank and very little knowledge of developments from a credit risk perspective.

Turning to the specific lines of inquiry that I was asked to address, I have addressed each of these in my written statement. In the interest of time, I will not read through the detail of the views and perspectives that I have to offer, but I am happy to elaborate on my submission in any way that the committee considers helpful. I have summarised that submission, Chairman, with my personal conclusion that the failure of the bank was primarily attributed to the failure of our credit risk management policy. Our stress testing of customers' repayment capacity was not sufficiently challenging, and our loan to value constraint on security was inadequate. The impact of these principle factors was exacerbated by an excessive weighting of property exposure in our portfolio, an undue level of exposure to individual counter parties, and there were external factors that contributed to the difficulty. There were inappropriate accounting protocols in my view for loan loss provisioning, there was unanticipated and increased funding costs, there was an external requirement for increased capital and all of these added to the strain.

I hope my statement is helpful to the committee. I have relied primarily on my recollection of events in preparing material for the inquiry and this may mean that some points of detail have escaped me. With that caveat, I am happy to address any more detailed questions that may arise. Thank you, Chairman.

Thank you very much, Mr. Forde. Our first questioner today is Senator Marc MacSharry. Senator you have 25 minutes.

Thank you very much. Welcome, Mr. Forde. Can I ask what processes and actions were taken to monitor and remediate the regular approval of exceptions to the group-large exposure policy limits?

Mr. Donal Forde

I do not think there was much action taken to remediate them. That is the truth of the situation. I think it became far too routine that exceptions were created to the large exposure policy. I think that is the case. There was not a question of remediating them. They were referred to the board, all of these, they were approved. I think we began to accept it as something routine that that policy was honoured more, I have to say, in the breach than in the observance.

Is it fair to say or not that the correct checks and balances did not exist?

Mr. Donal Forde

I would not have put it like that, in the sense that every one of these cases was scrutinised. All the documentation and the circumstance of the case would be reviewed three times - by the division, the division then referred them to the group credit committee and they would be reviewed again and then they would go to the board for final approval. So it was not that there was an absence of scrutiny on them. I think we had come to accept that large exposures to individuals who were long-established in the property and construction business were acceptable. I would put it in those terms.

What would constitute a large exposure, typically?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think the policy dictated - from memory - I think it is anything in excess of €75 million. I may be wrong in that but of that order had to be referred to the group, essentially. Given that it was at odds with our policy, it had to go to the board for approval and sign off.

In your experience, both outside the board and in the board, was the board rubber stamping or did it scrutinise the work already done by the various committees? Or did they just rubber stamp and accept recommendations?

Mr. Donal Forde

It felt like an intense process of scrutiny. I cannot speak for how the members of the board saw it but certainly from my point of view and certainly from the perspective of those at divisional level who were going to those, they certainly felt they were being scrutinised fairly rigorously.

Was there ever an instance where one was rejected by the board?

Mr. Donal Forde

There was. I couldn't ... I cannot say that they were all approved. There was some. There would be, in some sense, amended or some recommendations would actually follow that piece of work to say security was to be amended or some such, or-----

But no decline. There was no decline, was there? Just that we asked before, the previous witness, just to-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I don't know that I could answer that absolutely. I don't know. I don't ... I can't recall one, truthfully. I imagine it would be less of a decline than some amelioration of the case or something, but-----

So you would have recommended adjustments, but-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes-----

-----but you don't recall saying, "No, we're not doing that."

Mr. Donal Forde

I don't recall an outright decline where adjustments would be reasonably frequent. I ... remember, I wouldn't actually attend at those because I would be considered to be someone in conflict. So I ... it would be very infrequent that I would actually sit at those chairman's sub-committees.

Except when you were at the board itself?

Mr. Donal Forde

No. No, because it would be regarded as a conflict. I think I sat at one, I remember, where somebody had withdrawn or something but, it was always regarded as a conflict on my part given that I was coming from the division if I was to be sitting in judgment on something that those working for me were bringing forward.

In your time on the board, post '07, the chairman's committee, it seemed, routinely considered these issues. Did the board rubber-stamp the recommendations of the chairman's committee typically or did they scrutinise or change or adapt or adjust or-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I think the minutes of those committees were then circulated with the board and they would be read and read into the minutes and-----

And do you recall at any stage, any dissenting voices to a decision of the chairman's committee?

Mr. Donal Forde

I vaguely recall a discussion and I'm ... and I'm now in the left last ... the later months of '08 and '09 when things were beginning to get problematic. I do remember one or two cases though, they were the subject of board discussions.

Would you like to elaborate on those?

Mr. Donal Forde

I ... I don't think it would be appropriate for me to mention names. I'm not sure that I should, but-----

What size of the deal? I mean, developer A was borrowing ...

Mr. Donal Forde

I can't remember the name. I ... forgive me, it's six or seven years ago, I wouldn't remember the detail of the case, but it was a substantial case, and I remember there was ... there was discussion as to what the right stance was to adopt in that case at least. I do recall-----

And did that end up in a ... in a refusal or-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I think it would've ended up in a fairly significant amendment-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Adjustment.

Mr. Donal Forde

I remember that one specifically.

Okay, was there ever staff members or ...senior or junior of AIB, who would've been termed high exposure?

Mr. Donal Forde

Staff members? Oh ... well sorry, in the sense of the large exposures policy? Or do you mean it in a less formal-----

Well let's say I'm ... Let's say I was an employee of AIB. Was there any people that owed €75 million who were on staff?

Mr. Donal Forde

No. No. Nobody on that scale.

Mr. Donal Forde

There was one or two individuals who had property exposure but nothing of that ... of that order.

Okay. Were they in senior positions?

Mr. Donal Forde

One of them certainly was, yes.

What kind of a role would that have been?

Mr. Donal Forde

He would've been involved ... he would've been in charge of the unit that ran our property and construction business.

And how deep was that person exposed?

Mr. Donal Forde

Deep in the sense of?

I mean ... How much did that person borrow from the bank to facilitate their property investments?

Mr. Donal Forde

Very small amount from our own bank but he had facilities from another bank, in my knowledge, in party with other individuals.

Would there have been many staff, say, that borrowed or were involved in syndication for multi-million, say, in excess of €5 million?

Mr. Donal Forde

I can only speak of what I knew. Very few.

And were there rules that governed these issues?

Mr. Donal Forde

There were rules in the ... there was a rule that we had a very rigorous conflict of interest policy. So I guess the judgment to be applied in that case was whether somebody, through activities like that, was conflicted in terms of what they were doing for AIB. And that conflict could arise in one of two ways: that they had an interest in one of the cases, and I was never aware of any such instance, or alternatively that they were active in some fashion in the market place in a manner that might've compromised one of the cases. There wasn't ... Never was there any evidence that that had happened. I do know there was some discomfort when one or two individuals, as I've said that I've acknowledged, but ... but, and that was the topic of some discussion, but I think we were always satisfied that they were not doing anything that conflicted in any way with the business of the bank. And, I guess there was a view that the knowledge and intimacy, I suppose, that they had with the market place, was actually of quite a benefit to us in the sense of knowing the nuances of the market, having credibility in standing in the market, so ...

Are you aware of any loans or terms offered to borrowers which would be considered outside the normal commercial terms available at your institution made during the period of your tenure and if so, can you clarify the reasons why this would've happened?

Mr. Donal Forde

That's a very sweeping question. I suppose maybe I ... maybe before I answer that, if I explain ... I wouldn't have involvement in individual cases of any description. I had no credit discretion of my own. Credit decisions, there was a ... there was a framework within which they were made. We had a chief credit officer. He sat with the committee, he adjudicated on those cases. I didn't get involved in those cases and I took the view that to do so created some danger that my opinion of a case would sway unduly members of the committee. So I didn't get involved in those. Now, I ... we're dealing with many thousands of customers and can I say that there was a case ... that there weren't cases where something exceptional might've been done? There may well have been but there would be very very few. I mean, those credit committees operated to pretty stringent guidelines from the group credit committee. The product ... their ... the output of their work and the decisions they made on the cases were frequently reviewed by the group risk management ... risk management function. So, you'll see audit reports on the documentation there. The number of exceptions that would arise to policy would be very few.

And would ever any large lending decision come to you for approval? Never?

Mr. Donal Forde

No.

Mr. Donal Forde

Never. Never once. I had no credit discretion.

Okay. So the credit committee would recommend and you would say "Okay".

Mr. Donal Forde

No, it wouldn't even come ... it wouldn't even be referred to me. The credit committee essentially, I think I make reference to it in my statement, in the pre-2005 period, the credit committee ... our divisional credit committee had discretion up to €40 million, I think it was, so they would've approved cases up to €40 million. Approved meant approved, and that was the at the decision of the chief credit officer. If it exceeded that amount, it then had to be passed to the group credit committee, and the group credit committee would then review that case and it would pass a decision on it and if it passed a certain threshold there, it had to go to the chief executive of the board. So, I wasn't ... never had a sight of individual credit cases.

Had you a role in setting targets for managers in the country?

Mr. Donal Forde

From a lending point of view?

Sales, lending, yes.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. I had ... certainly that was at the heart of what I did. In the way that I described here, my job was to drive the performance of the division within the policies that were set down. So yes, at the start of the year, there would be targets agreed for pretty much every aspect of the business.

So in with regard to lending, how would that manifest itself?

Mr. Donal Forde

It would manifest itself in an expectation that loan growth would be, say, 10%.

Okay. We heard earlier from former chairman, Mr. Gleeson, and he seemed to be of the case, though I did ask him to reflect and he said he may have been incorrect, that targets were only ever linked to profitability, rather than, say, volumes. So I was querying that. So are you saying that when you would be setting targets for branches or performers in ... that it would be linked to growth in lending, rather than profitability?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, let me ... let me explain, I suppose, the way that the process would work. We would have a divisional profit target for the year that would break down into a whole variety of different lines of business. There'd be an advance as growth target and then that would break down between an expectation of growth in margins or growth in commercial loans, each elements of the portfolio, and there would be a margin attributed to that growth. So, example, the loan book in totality was to grow by 10%. The expected margin on that was, let's say, 1.5%. So the expected profitability outcome through the course of the year would be whatever the ... whatever the rate dictates. What would go on through the course of years, obviously each of those lines would vary, so you would be endeavouring to improve the margins on lines, and as you improve the margins, then clearly there wasn't the same pressure for volume growth. But I was accountable for the totality of that, and ... the totality being the profitability that fell out of it by the ... by year-end.

Let us say, on lending, who ... who would ... who reports to you, say-----

Mr. Donal Forde

On lending?

From a lending point of view?

Mr. Donal Forde

The divisional chief credit officer had a line of report to me and a line of report also to the group risk management function.

So, when you'd sit down and do targets for the year and you'd say, "Right, we're going to grow lending by X per cent", that's based on volume. So by the time that gets to Joe Bloggs, the branch manager or the regional manager over three or four branches, would it say "You are to grow your lending by X on commercial and Y on residential"?

Mr. Donal Forde

I would break the overall target down and I would then turn, for example, I would turn to the general manager who was in charge of property and construction and I would say, "Look, our expectation is that loans will grow by X, our expectation, our expectation is that we will earn margins of Y, the group is expecting profitability of Z from us, okay". And thereafter, what we would endeavour to do is to manage the margin up. We would endeavour to grow the volume but we had to grow that volume within the credit guidelines that were set out for us.

Who would set the target .... you would set the margins at maybe your level? And above?

Mr. Donal Forde

I would have a target passed down to me from the group for the division and I would then pass that target out to------

So, the target that would come to you would be based on profitability, would it?

Mr. Donal Forde

It would be ... well, it would be based on profitability but remember as part of the bank's budgeting for capital and other things, that would have a particular loan growth expectation attachment to it.

What I'm asking really is, when targets are determined or for you, as managing director, do you then have to localise that then for the branch network to say "Here's what you need to do"?-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes-----

And would ... is it fair to say that that manifests itself then in sales targets in terms of mortgage products or lending products?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, that's fair.

Alright and then if that's the case, if I'm a manager or a loan officer or whatever I am in whatever branch, am I-----

Mr. Donal Forde

No, lest I give the wrong impression, just in parallel with those would be those guidelines that I have talked about which said "Your mortgages have to fall within these parameters, they have to generate this return at an individual level, your loans have to fall within these parameters. They have to be ... they have fall within this risk framework." So I had no licence to operate outside of the framework that the group had dictated to be appropriate from a risk perspective.

Of course, yes, so and how were the people remunerated then in direct sales?

Mr. Donal Forde

People were remunerated-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, ultimately people were remunerated on profitability.

On profitability?

Mr. Donal Forde

On profitability of the business.

But if ... would people have targets and on-target earnings?

Mr. Donal Forde

They'd have, you see I'm hesitant to use the words "absolute target" in the sense that at the end of the year, if somebody fell short of the expectation from a volume point of view by 10% but had improved their margin by 12%, you would be very content with them and they had done a very good job. Does that make sense?

Yes but, individual branch managers didn't have discretion on things like rates, for example?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, no.

Well then sure --- they're the ones selling the loans, aren't they?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I am talking about my allocation of targets to the general manager, who in turn would allocate them down but they wouldn't be specific at their level.

What was the percentage growth in lending in your tenure as managing director on property and construction?

Mr. Donal Forde

I don't have the overall number. It would have been a very strong number.

And what was the contribution-----

Mr. Donal Forde

The numbers are there in-----

And what was the contribution of your division in terms of profitability to-----

Mr. Donal Forde

It was in excess of a billion by 2009.

So what was that percentage in terms of the bank?

Mr. Donal Forde

The overall group ... oh ... forgive me now I'm ... I'm guessing would have been around 50% but I don't have the number to hand.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, I'm guessing it would have been of that order.

The chairman, the then chairman, Mr. Gleeson, told ----

Mr. Donal Forde

I may be corrected on that-----

-----told us earlier that property and construction contributed maybe 10% to 13%, I think, if I am quoting him correctly, this morning-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Of the overall group?

Mr. Donal Forde

I don't have the number to hand, that strikes me as a little on the low side but I don't have the overall number to hand.

Okay. When targets were being determined, it was being driven purely by profitability, at your level. But that manifested itself in the branch network then.

Mr. Donal Forde

Forgive me, I am just careful to say that within the constraints from a risk perspective that had been ordained. So it wasn't as if we could go out and create any number of loans on terms that weren't consistent with the risk guidelines that were given to us. So my objectives formally would be to manage loan growth within the credit risk guidelines that had been laid out for me and then to endeavour to reach the targets that had been set for me. I think that's fair to describe it in those terms.

Yes. In terms of an earlier question there, in terms of anybody getting special deals or situations that it would be outside the norm, I mean the individual discretion of branch managers, how high would that go?

Mr. Donal Forde

They wouldn't have one.

They wouldn't have one.

Mr. Donal Forde

They wouldn't have one, you know, we did become very centralised, I mean I think I describe it in my statement. The divisional chief credit officer had a discretion of €40 million. Below that we had senior lending and sorry, forgive me, the divisional chief credit committee had a discretion of €40 million. The chief credit officer, I think, had €20 million, from memory and then we had a number of senior lending executives who had the order of €8 million to €10 million and pretty much after that, you know, they within their teams might pass that down one level more but we were dealing with a pretty centralised system where the local branch manager would have no discretion.

Mr. Donal Forde

None. The fact-----

Was there ... would it have been possible for a manager in pursuit of a target to procure a purchaser for land that they were aware was on the market and approve a loan for that amount of money?

Mr. Donal Forde

Sorry, when you say manager, you mean a branch manager?

Well, a lending manager.

Mr. Donal Forde

No. The way the system worked was I described the sector that dealt with the relationships in property and construction. Their job was to originate the loan, okay, on terms that were consistent with our guidelines and that would then be brought either to the senior lending executive or to the divisional credit committee for approval. So, you couldn't originate and approve as one individual.

Were independent valuations always sought?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, not in the early days. That, well, they weren't sought at all times until about 2006, I think it was, when the audit committee dictated that there should be formal independent valuations then for security greater than €5 million, I think it was, at that stage.

But up to then, up to 2006-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Up to then, it would be done in some cases, not in others.

And after 2006, if it was anything under €4 million it wouldn't be. As a matter of routine.

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I wouldn't say it wasn't done but it wasn't prescribed.

It wasn't prescribed so it was possible then for a person to go in and say "You know me, I'm a good builder I want to borrow €4 million, that's the property, there's the brochure" and theoretically, your credit committee could say "No problem here's the money".

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, but the credit committee's job was to evaluate that asset and-----

They wouldn't be valuers, would they?

Mr. Donal Forde

They wouldn't but I-----

Okay, so they were guessing or were they? I mean, what did they do? I mean, how did they evaluate without a valuation?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I think, the way a loan officer does this is they look at this from first principles. So if there is a piece of property, you look to see what's the potential productivity of that piece of property, so is it to be used for residential development, how many houses can be built on it, what's the price of those houses, what's the cost of building those houses, what will the density be, how long will it take for the money to be realised. They're meant to work it out from first principles and then stress test that and that determines the value of the property. I think I made the point in my statement that perhaps there was less of that and too much of the reliance on "the auctioneer up the road says this is worth €4 million" because I'm not sure what value attached to that in some respects. But the loan officer's job and he would be coming with 20 years' experience to this, would be to look at that asset and establish what seemed like a fair value for that asset and in many respects, the getting or the seeking of an independent valuation would be confirmatory more than anything else. I mean, more value would attach to that senior lending officer's valuation of that asset frequently than would to the external-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

Do you think that was wise?

Mr. Donal Forde

In hindsight, I actually think that the focus we started putting on external valuations was part of our undoing. Because it was something of a house of cards, I mean, one auctioneer says it worth four, one says five and then a certain solidity begins to attach to that from a lending point of view when prior to that, I think there'd be a lot more rigour about saying "Actually well, we need to work out ourselves what this piece of land is worth" and I think more effort and more scrutiny and more challenge maybe went into it in the earlier stages when you didn't have the comfort of an external valuer saying this is worth X.

So external valuation was poor practice?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, no, I think that-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I think that's being a little ... I think what I'm saying is that both are proper, both are important inputs into a lending decision.

I think we began, perhaps, to sway a little and to put too much weight on the externals and maybe less weight on the internals. Both done properly should give you the best result, clearly.

Okay. I'm nearly there. Just moving to the guarantee for a second. In your view was the guarantee the best solution, in your opinion, and did you believe in advance ... did you anticipate that it was going to be a blanket guarantee?

Mr. Donal Forde

I suppose the first thing to say is I'm - and I use the word guardedly - but I'm something of an onlooker on the process in the sense that my division wasn't in the line of fire from a liquidity point of view at that stage. The leakage of deposits from the bank was primarily from our capital markets division and from our UK division because it was the external players, particularly, who were losing confidence in the system. So I wasn't witnessing, in my particular area of responsibility ... I wasn't witnessing extensive leakage of deposits.

But what did you ... just ... I have only a minute left ... what's your opinion?

Mr. Donal Forde

I was surprised by how "sweeping", I think was the phrase I used. I ... my expectation, I had been led to expect, from the internal discussions, was that two institutions might necessarily be taken out of the market and then the guarantee would be restricted to the remaining institutions, and perhaps a more restrictive guarantee. So it was a surprise to me when it was-----

On the morning of the guarantee ... of it being announced ... it was a surprise. And looking back, what's your current view of the appropriateness of the guarantee?

Mr. Donal Forde

I don't know that I want to volunteer. I wasn't there, I wasn't privy to all the information-----

No, no, but you're a professional with a lot of experience so it's just your view of the appropriateness - given that experience - that may be of value to the committee.

Mr. Donal Forde

It's easy to judge these things in hindsight. I can understand the view that a more sweeping and radical response often has the impact of giving the market confidence and, sort of, dealing with the issue decisively there and then. So, overkill sometimes is good to deal with market negativity. Perhaps that was the mindset. So I would be slow to criticise, I wasn't there, and-----

Thank you very much, Senator. Deputy Eoghan Murphy - 25 minutes.

Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Forde. You're very welcome. Just to clarify, Mr. Forde, if I may, you were managing director of AIB in the Republic of Ireland from 2002 to February 2009. Did you have an opportunity to hear Mr. Gleeson's evidence this morning?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I didn't.

In the written statement he provided to us he said that - under the heading "Quality of the Business Model Setting Process" - "Four of the five business divisions, came through the crisis relatively intact. The exception was the largest division namely Republic of Ireland." And then in his oral presentation he said "ROI brought the bank down". Would you like to comment on that?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think that's substantially true. I mean ... the weight of the loans that ultimately caused problems - property and construction loans - did originate in our division so I have no quarrel with that.

Coming to your opening statement ... just to get some clarification ... you said that in January-February '09, you were completely removed from discussions at executive management level and board level, and without objectives or direction in terms of a work agenda, and nine months later you left the bank. Could you please clarify what happened here and why you think it happened?

Mr. Donal Forde

In what respect, Deputy?

In terms of that move being made, at that time.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, my understanding, when it happened, was that the chief executive, I think, thought that fresh eyes and fresh perspective on the division would be a helpful thing at that point in time - that, I expected was his mindset - and I didn't have a quarrel with that. You know, I was disappointed clearly to be stepping aside when business that I had been intimately involved with for seven years before that, but I understood his rationale. The position that I understood I was taking up, I thought, given, in a way, the difficulties in which the bank found itself at that stage, that it's ... a perspective on strategy would be an interesting ... and a role in which I could make a contribution, and in some sense help with the situation that I was part of creating. The role simply never materialised. I think the bank got into crisis, ever more intensively, from that point onwards. Whatever ambitions he had for that role to develop just never materialised and-----

And do you think that move, that you made, do you think it was a result of a particular action on your part, or connected to the performance of the bank in the Republic of Ireland, under your tenure?

Mr. Donal Forde

It wasn't offered to me in those terms but I can't speak for the chief executive. I think that's a question for him. It wasn't put to me in those terms.

Okay. Thank you.

I'd like to move to just a few months prior to that, when you appeared in front of an Oireachtas finance committee in December 2008. And you said:

With regard to the recapitalisation of banks, part of the difficulty in the debate is that banks are banded together as if we are all the same. We are not. AIB has made it clear it does not believe it needs capital and that additional capital will not do anything for the business for which I am responsible.

Then in February, two months later ... February 2009, there was a capital injection into the bank from the Government. Can you please explain the difference between your statement and the actual subsequent action?

Mr. Donal Forde

I can. I think you'll see in the documentation that we were given, there's a stress test that was done there on the property and construction portfolio in '07, and that was done by the risk management function in the bank ... by the most qualified people we had in the risk management discipline. And you'll see in that, that their downside scenario, their extreme case scenario, was a loss of €2 million of the bank's capital. Well actually not of the bank's capital ... a loss of €2 million which would substantially erode the profitability of the bank, and might ... might require, I suppose, it's capital adequacy to be boosted. But this was the extreme view, so, when I was asked in '08, I was still leaning on that understanding of our portfolio. That was my view of the risk that attached to the business that I was responsible for. And I answered the question, and anything I would have said would have been informed by that perspective, which I now accept was wrong, but that's what guided those answers at the time.

You weren't ... sorry, were you instructed to make that statement, at the finance committee, about AIB not requiring capital?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well I wouldn't say I was instructed, I mean, I think ... there would have been discussion going on at the executive management team and the issue of capital would have been under discussion because at that time there was an expectation in the market, essentially, that we needed capital. And I think ... like ... and I remember seeing some of the minutes here in the documents. I think the view of the finance team was that there were some steps we could take to improve our capital position, but not going so far as a capital issuance. So I was persuaded by that view, and I ... that's what informed ... so ... so I wouldn't say I was instructed, I would say I accepted the view of the finance team at that stage.

But was there a discussion at management level as to how to present the bank's position to the Oireachtas at the time?

Mr. Donal Forde

No I ... no I can't say that, no, no.

And then moving just two months later from you making that very express statement in a finance committee, two months after the guarantee, the bank does not need capital, it then requires a €3.5 billion injection from the Government, in a two-month window.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. I think ... I make the point I think, in my statement, that in my last act, if I can express it in those terms, of the MD of the division, was that the chief executive has asked me to do a very rigorous assessment of what the scale of loan losses could be. This was in late January, early February of '09. And I did that at the time and I did it ... that was ... that was done in close collaboration with the chief credit officer and the risk executives. And the product of that was, at that time, to suggest that the loan losses could be of the order of €2 billion to €3 billion. That was my last picture of the division before I, in a sense, stepped aside. Now that would have not led to that order of capital requirement that subsequently came. Now things deteriorated so quickly and so sharply after that, that from one month to another the situation changed, so I can understand how ... I mean, at that stage ... I recall when that was being done, the worry and the concern from a credit point of view was that houses weren't selling, sales of completed office developments had stopped. The worry was not so much about the fall in value as it was about the suspension of economic activity. At that stage values were back ... house values were back 25%. Clearly from then, to a period 12 months later, things changed very dramatically. So, if you'll forgive me, I think asking me whether something, an evaluation of the loan portfolio, was done in February or done in April is very material given what was happening. And the last one I saw was what was done in late January and February and that was the product of it.

And that work you did talked about a, at maximum, €3 billion loss on the loan book in the Republic of Ireland division, and you said that would've changed dramatically again two months subsequent to that.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I stepped out from there, but I'm saying I can understand how, month to month thereafter, given the pace at which things deteriorated ... the point at which you looked at that portfolio, you would get a different and more adverse result every second month, I think, if you looked at it.

Just to clarify, then - your statement to the Oireachtas committee in December 2008, as far as you're concerned, was true at the time.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. Yes.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. Unequivocally yes.

Mr. Donal Forde

And the evaluation that I did in late January and February was, in my opinion, a proper, fair and honest evaluation at that stage.

Okay. Thank you. I want to take you back, then, to your management of the increase in property lending in the Republic of Ireland prior to the 2008. The rate of increase in property lending in the AIB Group was magnified in the Republic of Ireland division, and on exposure to property, property lending grew in the Republic of Ireland from €10.1 billion in 2004 to €33.3 billion in 2008. Can you explain this imbalance with other divisions in the AIB Group? Why was it magnified? Why was it so much greater in RoI?

Mr. Donal Forde

Because the heart of our franchise ... we were Ireland's biggest ... well, we still are Ireland's biggest business bank. The core of AIB's franchise in the Irish market was with business customers and the greater part of economic activity that was afoot at these times was in property and construction. So, I think an added statistic for that period, Deputy, was that our market share wouldn't have changed during that period. So, what happened was, we kept pace with the level of activity in the market. We continued to service and support those customers through that time. Mistakenly, I now accept, but we didn't feel we were stepping more intensively into the market. We felt we were keeping pace with the requirements of our customers.

You had two different CEOs during that period 2004 to 2008. Did either of them express concerns with that magnification in property lending?

Mr. Donal Forde

There was a number of discussions, not ... I don't recall specific ... well, I don't recall specific discussions with the CEOs, but I recall discussions at our group executive forum and I recall a number of discussions at the board where there would be considerable discussion about the weight of our property-construction lending, and I suppose particularly a fact that it was - again, I saw reference in the documents - it was in breach of some of the guidelines from the regulator. And there was a number of board discussions to specifically address that point - were we comfortable with what we were doing in property-construction? I actually recall ... I think when that stress test in 2007 was presented to the board, that was in response, I think, to a specific request from the regulator that the board would validate and confirm its comfort with AIB's property and construction exposure. And I ... the board's response to that was to ask the risk function to do that evaluation that you've seen there and that stress test. And the output of that - mistaken, I now accept - I think left them with a false sense of security and a false sense of comfort. So, yes. I've answered that in a long-winded way. There was discussion. I wouldn't say there was concern, but the scale of our property and construction exposure featured frequently, but each time the board got to a point of comfort with it and we continued.

You were in breach of the limits by ... the limits were 250%, the limits you mentioned. And in 2006, you were at 260%, but by September 2008 you were at 390%. I mean, that's-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I can't ... I'll take it that you're right on the numbers.

I could give you a reference for that if you'd like. It's-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yeah. I'll take-----

Mr. Donal Forde

We were in breach of them. I acknowledge that anyway.

But it was a significant breach.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

Would you not agree? 250% to-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, I would.

-----390%. But you drew comfort from the fact that the board was happy with this.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I don't ... sorry. I, too, drew comfort and ... let me-----

Because you were the managing director-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yeah.

-----in Republic of Ireland.

Mr. Donal Forde

I, too, drew comfort. And I think, when you'll see that, if I can just lay my hands on it ... when you see the presentation that was made to the board ... this was a time when there was a lot of discussion going on about Basel II and the manner in which loan portfolios should be measured and evaluated from the perspective of what capital was required to support them. And you'll see reference in this that ... certainly, what was communicated to me, or was communicated to us, was that the regulator themselves recognised that this singular, homogenous limit was no longer appropriate and what was now required - and that was consistent with Basel II - was a segmentation of that portfolio and analysis of the different elements of it from a risk point of view. And that's the exercise, essentially, that the risk function presented. And that ... you will see a reference there that the regulator was interested in that methodology themselves.

Just to confirm, from your point of view, the regulator was also considering changing-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. That's what I understood.

-----the methodology of calculation.

Mr. Donal Forde

That's what I understood.

And you were in agreement that the methodology should be-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yeah. In principle, it's right to say that one homogenous limit for all property is perhaps not the best way forward, so I understood the logic of that. Perhaps the alternative that we were working with didn't prove itself too well but, in principle, I could see where they were going with that.

If I could move now to the reliance by the bank on interbank lending, securities, short-term commercial lending and wholesale funding, were you aware of the extent of the tracker mortgage interest rate risk in AIB that you were taking on over that period and was it ever discussed with the board?

Mr. Donal Forde

No. I don't think we ever looked at it as an interest rate risk. By that, you might mean the basis risk?

Mr. Donal Forde

Okay. Yes, we were conscious of it but, at the time, the view was that mortgages were going to be so preferentially treated under the new Basel II regulations that, actually, those margins could contract further because these ... as an asset, they were particularly favourably treated, essentially under Basel II, in a manner that perhaps in hindsight wasn't justified. And for that reason, again, the view was that those margins would continue to contract. So, as with other elements, we didn't see the risk in that.

I mean, that was just an accounting tool, though. I mean, more than 50% of your residential loan book was tracker mortgages.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yeah.

I mean, in terms of the practice of having to borrow ... to lend at one rate and borrow at a higher rate and the risks inherent in that.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, you had that risk anyway. I mean, you know, even a conventional mortgage has the same risk attaching to it.

But do you think the bank understood those risks or the scale of those risks?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, no. No, I don't think we did. No, I don't think we anticipated ... sorry - we did not anticipate the level of structural change that came about in the interbank funding markets. We had never anticipated a scenario where, essentially, you would have to borrow money at such premium in the marketplace. No, we had not anticipated that properly.

Okay. Why did the bank ... why was there a significant increase in the issuance of short-term commercial paper funding, given the short tenure and volatility of such instruments, you know, when it comes to a credit crisis? I mean, if you look at ... just to give you the figures ... in the end of the financial year 2004, AIB increased-----

You've strayed into liquidity, Deputy, yes?

That's correct.

Increased its commercial paper by €6.2 billion, a 300% increase year on year, to assist in funding balance sheet growth.

Mr. Donal Forde

I'm not sure ... are you right in describing-----

I'm sorry. There was-----

If you want, I can bring up a bit of evidence on this.

Yeah. Well, sorry. I-----

Mr. Donal Forde

It's okay, Chairman. My-----

Mr. Forde, there was a significant increase in the issuance of short-term commercial paper funding in AIB when you were managing director, a 300% increase year on year. It's a risky thing to do for the reason that we've just been discussing. In a credit crisis, when people then call in these issuances where there's no lending on the interbank market, you then run into trouble in terms of your funding and liquidity if it's called upon. Were those risks appreciated by AIB at the time?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, in answer to your question more broadly, I'm not sure we understood the degree of funding risk, but I wouldn't attribute that to commercial paper. The issuance of commercial paper is a well recognised means of improving your liquidity profile.

Why did you ... why did it increase? Why did it expand?

Mr. Donal Forde

Because it was one of those measures by which we were trying to improve, essentially, the construct of the balance sheet. By being able to issue commercial paper, you improve your liabilities and you will ... that enhances your liquidity position. So, that was a positive step. But, if I take it in the context of the broader question you're asking, I'm not sure we fully understood. In fact, I am sure we didn't fully understand ... we did not anticipate the scale of dysfunctionality that came later in the interbank markets. I accept that point and I acknowledge it. Commercial paper would've actually been a positive feature of the work that was done to try and improve our position, or the issuance of it.

Okay. And, to your knowledge, was there a practice of restructuring criticised loans, agreeing to moratoriums, interest only, interest roll-up, extending terms and conditions in the period 2006 to 2008?

Mr. Donal Forde

Sorry, Deputy, was there?

This is related to solvency with the bank.

Yes, sorry, we're moving into the solvency issue debate ... restructuring criticised loans.

Mr. Donal Forde

In the period?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think there's always a practice of restructuring criticised loans. I mean, one of the means by which you try and remedy a loan that is not functioning is to try to restructure it, so, yes, always, not just in that period, there's a practice of trying to restructure criticised loans. But the volume of criticised loans in the period of '06 to '08 would have been very few, so I'm not sure where your question is going, but it wouldn't have been material.

Well, it began to increase quite quickly then, the criticised loans?

Mr. Donal Forde

In '08, it would have.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, in '08. Late '08, it would have.

And then what does that tell you then about the quality of the loans that were being given out then in the period-----

Mr. Donal Forde

It tells you the obvious, which is that your loan quality is deteriorating, which was obvious from the early part of 2008 when, as the economy began to slow, it was obvious that loan quality was deteriorating and that was just one of the symptoms of it.

I want to take you back, if I might, just to your opening statement, just to clarify something then, because you said in your opening statement, which I know you didn't get to read out in full, "The first point of failure came with the collapse of economic activity and the manner in which it undermined repayment capacity." Just elaborate on that point for me, please. When did the problems in AIB actually begin?

Mr. Donal Forde

Okay. Well, the market began to deteriorate in early '08. Now, what I mean by deteriorate is that essentially ... well, forgive me, I'll just step back one step further. If you're managing a property and construction portfolio, you lend for a significant period of time. You've to lend through a period in which land is purchased, in which houses are built and the costs are incurred before ... the revenue only comes at the end when houses begin to sell, or the office, the commercial development that has been developed begins to sell. The loan and the cash flows are predicated on that sale happening at a particular time and, from early '08, it was obvious that activity in the market was beginning to slow; houses were not selling in the way that had been expected and what that begins to do then is it pushes out the revenues on which those loan cases are based, so, from early '08, it was obvious that there were some developers who were going ... would not meet the cash flow expectations that we had and I would describe the deterioration in the loan book through the course of '08 as that dynamic. That's what was going on and it wasn't until '09 actually that the concern of inadequate security values began to really manifest itself. It's only then that it became obvious that asset values were falling to a point that our security was going to be compromised.

In terms of-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Does that help?

Well, in terms of AIB failing, its failures as an institution, as a bank-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Okay.

-----were prior to that, though. AIB's failures weren't just because of a collapse in economic activity in the country?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, no, forgive me, I was trying to describe why it is that the loan book was deteriorating. I've acknowledged that our failure goes back to the scale of property and construction lending that we had. I make no bones about that.

That's unclear from that point in your opening statement.

Mr. Donal Forde

Sorry.

And then, in relation to the change in management, the change in CEOs while you were MD, would you like to comment? Was there a change in style or a change in direction for the bank between 2005 and 2006?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I can't say that there was. I can't say that there was. I think the level of growth in the market intensified in '05 and '06, so it seemed like the pace of activity was more frantic, if I can describe it in those terms, through '05 and '06. I didn't ... I can't say that there was a change in the culture of the bank, no. I probably ... sorry, let me just amend that a small bit.

Mr. Donal Forde

I think there was a little more pressure from outside the bank for performance because I think, at that point, other banks were going through a stellar performance period and certainly I was more conscious of the pressures from analysts and shareholders to meet their expectation, so I would say it was different in that regard, but I can't say the internal culture changed.

Well, then other tactical changes: bank exposures needing group credit committee approval went from €40 million to €75 million, end of 2005, beginning of 2006.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

Was that from a change at CEO level?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, it simply came about because of, I suppose, two things: the growth in the portfolio and the growth in the number of cases that exceeded the threshold that applied at the divisional credit committee.

Okay. I want to just come back, just finally, to Mr. Gleeson's evidence earlier today. We were talking about the roll-up of interest in the RoI division and when he was asked about ... the board went looking to find out exactly how much interest had been rolled up and he said there was a bad piece of missing architecture because management weren't able to produce it, they had to go and look for it manually, and he said that this was an indefensible gap.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, I think that's fair, an indefensible gap at the level of portfolio management and understanding. In each of the individual cases, that would be well-documented on the file, so yes, that was a gap in the inability to be able to pull that together as a complete picture. I accept that.

Did you understand that that gap was there? Did you understand that people underneath you------

Mr. Donal Forde

I guess-----

-----in terms of managing their portfolios weren't monitoring this?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, that's not what I've said. People were monitoring it, at a case-by-case basis. The gap was that, from an overall portfolio management, we weren't readily able to present that picture and I guess that only became ... that only came into such ... our focus in late '08 and then it became obvious that that was a piece of information that we needed and needed a lot more ... needed to be able to access a lot more readily than we were able to do.

As it occurred, was it being reported to you?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I think it's ... can I just step back here for a second? If you take an individual property case, as I've said, if I lend money to somebody for the purchase of land, or if I lend money to somebody to develop residential housing, there's always going to be interest roll-up. There's no way of paying the interest. There's no way, until the houses begin to sell or ... so, there's interest roll-up endemic in every property loan.

That's one reason for interest roll-up.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

But there are other reasons, where someone's not able to meet their repayments.

Mr. Donal Forde

Sorry, that would be fair. That would be fair. Later on, that became a feature, I think, I would say through '09; and, late '08, there were some who were beginning, as I explained earlier on when you asked me to explain the deterioration in the portfolio, it was for that reason, that we were beginning to encounter some cases where they simply couldn't pay their interest because those sales weren't materialising. Yes, that's the case, but I would distinguish those from the concept of interest roll-up more generally.

Did AIB distinguish-----

I'll be bringing you back in at the end, Deputy. You'll have time; okay?

Mr. Donal Forde

Did we ... we distinguished on a case-by-case basis. I have acknowledged that what we didn't have is an overall MIS that was able to present that to the board in the way that they would have wished.

Thank you very much. That concludes the leads, but there is just one issue, maybe if we can just get a bit of further clarity on the appropriateness of property-related lending strategies and risk appetite in AIB. This relates to core document AIB PB2, page 6, item 4, or 4.2. Very simply, Mr. Forde, the Central Bank have a licensing and supervision requirements and standards for credit institutions and the standards provided that the credit institutions should not have risk assets amounting to more than 200% of shareholder funds; that's the own funds inside in the bank. And, in any one sector of business, or economic activity, or were considered to apply to two or more separate sectors, the limit was 250% of own funds. Now, in July 2006, the banks' exposures to the broad property, building and construction sector, amounted to 206% ... or, sorry, 260% of own funds, which was already now going over the limit and while the limit was 250% and then the bank continued to breach these limits and such lending reached the level of 390% at September 2008. Now, you were the head of AIB's Republic of Ireland's business. How do you reconcile the level of lending to the property and construction sectors while you were, at this case now, clearly in breach of regulatory prudential lending limits for the sector from 2006 onwards?

Mr. Donal Forde

Okay, I think the first point to make is that the numbers you're quoting are for the group, not for the division, and would include our property exposures in the UK and in capital markets, okay? So, I wouldn't be able to relate to this statistic as a divisional one, it's a group-----

Mr. Donal Forde

-----so just to make that point, firstly. I mean, my ... I suppose what I have to offer about this is all set out in that slide that you see in that stress review-----

Mr. Donal Forde

----where we were ... certainly we knew we were in breach of that limit, but that limit had ... that limit had come into question and, certainly my understanding is, as much by the regulator as by anybody else. And that that limit was a historic one that had a homogenous kind of a constraint on all aspects of ... sorry, had a constraint on all aspects of property, as if they were all homogenous.

I have heard the expression kind of used sometimes, maybe on the roads of west Cork, that people would say the rules of the road are a suggestion. In this case the rules of the road are actually the law. Were these rules that were regulated, steadfast rules, or were they interpretive rules?

Mr. Donal Forde

My understanding is that they were guidelines. I understood them as guidelines from the regulator. But, sorry, I think it's ... strong guidelines from the regulator, but my understanding, and I would have had no direct engagement with them, but my understanding was that the regulator themselves, by reason of the manner in which portfolio analysis and measurement was developing under Basel II, had questions about that limit also.

I want to try to establish then, on foot of that, Mr. Forde, is, obviously whether it's a guideline or a rule, I would imagine there would be a mechanism - correct me if I'm wrong - that in AIB somebody would say, "Hang on a second, we need to be looking at this," and it gets fed up the line. How far up the line-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. No, not fed up the line, fed down.

Fed down the line?

Mr. Donal Forde

Fed down the line, because the engagement with the regulator's office would happen at a group level, it wouldn't happen at individual level.

So the board would have been aware of this?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

Okay. So, the ... so, at board level in authority then would feed this down the line. Okay, so what was the remedial action, because the outcome seemed to have been that you now went up to 390% by September 2008? One would imagine that the action was to break this down or to slow it down and to calm the jets, but in fact it went the other way. So, what was the action, because if the action was to slow things down, that's certainly not reflected by the figures?

Mr. Donal Forde

Chairman, I think the best ... the best illumination of this is in that stress test that was presented to the board in ... it's in '07, isn't it? I think it is in early '07, in April of '07. That acknowledges to the board that we are in breach of the Financial Regulator's limits.

That's not the ... but that's not the question I'm asking you, with respect, Mr. Forde.

Mr. Donal Forde

Okay.

We know that you were in an area that you were breaching, whether these were guidelines or rules and, correct me if I'm wrong, one would assume that the then desired action would be to get more congruent and in line with what the rules are, but the outcome over the two year period was to go further beyond the limits. So, was there a direction to calm things down or was there any direction at all?

Mr. Donal Forde

Just bear with me, I suppose. The reason I was drawing attention to that was what that presentation sets out is the fact that we're in breach of the limit, then goes on to explain, however, if I can use that phraseology, that when the portfolio is analysed in the manner that Basel II required of it, break it into logical portfolios, the result was that the risk attaching to it came within levels that were comfortable for the bank. And that was fed back to the regulator, and it was that that led the board to the conclusion that the level of exposure that we had at that stage built up was acceptable to them. So, no, you're right in saying that there was no direction to stop. What there was, was, I guess, a reassessment, a re-evaluation of it under that new methodology to say, yes, it is within levels that are comfortable and prudent for the bank.

I'm not going to labour over the point, but it was 260%, above 250%, which is marginally above it, but it was then 390%, which would seem to have been quite a distance. I raised this with Mr. Gleeson this morning and I'm just wondering if these figures are related to the point I was making. There was a suggestion that other banks may have been eating AIB's lunch, and particularly in the property and construction sectors. Was there a strategy during 2006 and 2008 to expand rapidly into the property and construction sectors by AIB to win back market share?

Mr. Donal Forde

No. No, I wouldn't describe ... in fact, if there was any ... if there was any concern, it was that we were losing market share. And, I guess, as MD, if I had a concern, it was that we should be trying to remain relevant to our customers, and that meant largely trying to maintain it, but there was no ... there was no ambition to grow it, no. I think there was a recognition that to retain the position we had was as ambitious as we could be.

Okay, thank you. Deputy Kieran O'Donnell. Deputy, ten minutes.

Thanks, Chairman. I want to welcome Mr. Forde. Mr. Forde, can I ... is it fair comment to say that the division over which you were managing director, which was the Irish division, was the division that caused €20 billion of taxpayers' money to be invested in AIB?

Mr. Donal Forde

I would say substantially that is true, yes.

You'd accept that responsibility?

Mr. Donal Forde

I accept ... the number, it's not in totality, but the substantial part of that did arise from the loan portfolio in that division, in my division. I accept that.

And you spoke about risk, and I just want to go through the area of risk. On page 3 of your statement you have provided. Am I correct in saying that, below the level of €40 million, that there was ten executives around Ireland in AIB that could effectively both take the application and agree the loan?

Mr. Donal Forde

I don't think I mentioned ten, did I?

Yes, well, you mentioned ... you said, "...only ten executives had individual lending discretions of more than euro 8 mil and this level of discretion generally only applied to the higher grade credit cases." The question I'm asking is, were there people within AIB that, if someone came in to them in a branch anywhere, one of ten, if someone came in to them with a loan of €39 million, that they could both take the application and approve it?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, that's not correct.

Well, what was the situation, then?

Mr. Donal Forde

These ... the people that I ... the people that I make reference to there were called senior lending executives, okay. They were in the credit function, okay. So, if somebody had a loan proposition, essentially, at branch level or coming from some other quarter, that loan proposition would be presented to those people, who then had the discretion to make judgment on it. They were separate from the point of origination.

But were they based in the branch?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, they were not.

Where would they be based?

Mr. Donal Forde

Centrally based.

Centrally based in-----

Mr. Donal Forde

In the Bankcentre, and there was ... there was ... the ones with the greater discretion were based in Bankcentre. There would have been ... there would have been ones with a lesser discretion based in three centres: Galway, Cork and maybe Limerick-----

But you had people that were based ... that would have discretion up to €40 million of a loan?

Mr. Donal Forde

No. No, no, no, no. There was only one person ... there was a divisional credit committee who had discretion at that level. There was a number of people ... I'm searching for the ... if I said ten, I'm sure that's it. There was a number of people, senior lending executives, who had discretion of the order of €8 million to €10 million. All of those, I think, maybe bar one, were based in Dublin, in the Bankcentre, in the lending units. I think one of them might have been based in Cork.

Can you explain how that your loan book in your period ... you were CEO of the Irish division from 2002 to 2009, correct? Your loan book went up from about €76 billion, from 18% in terms of property of the overall loan book, to 37%; it more than doubled and ... which was €49 billion at the time. And, of that, €22 billion of that was land and development and €17 billion of the €22 billion was based in the Republic of Ireland. So, it meant 77% of land and development of €22 billion was based in Ireland. Why did the alarm bells not go off, and tell me how did you have a credit risk system within the bank that allowed that situation to develop?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I guess an added statistic to that is that ... through that time, AIB's share of business in the market didn't grow, okay. So, the first difficulty is that through that time, the business that our customers were doing, which they required us to support, was, unfortunately, very much in the arena of property and construction.

And is it fair to say, Mr. Forde, that ye became salesmen rather than prudential bankers?

That is leading ... can you ask would they be ... which-----

In the way ... in the approach that how you, we'll say, operated, were ye more concentrated ... the formula ... were you very much driven by sales growth in terms of the loan portfolio, and that the prudential, old style lending wasn't ... didn't form part ... as large a component as it would have previously. Could you comment on that?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. I think I've somewhat addressed it in my comments to Senator McSharry earlier on. At an overall divisional level, I've explained the way the targets worked. And the reason I was so careful to say that while there was targets, at the same time there was a very regimental, rigorous risk management function.

What was the bonus system in operation with your staff, in terms of sales of ... we'll say in terms of loans? Was there a bonus system in place?

Mr. Donal Forde

There was a bonus system.

Can you explain what that bonus system was?

Mr. Donal Forde

It would be based on profitability.

When you say profitability, how do you define profitability?

Mr. Donal Forde

I define the return ... the net return to their particular business unit at the end of the period.

So that would be ... so, clearly, would it be fair to say, that the more loans they had out-----

Mr. Donal Forde

It would be fair to say that the more of anything that they did ... if they did more fee business, it would improve it ... if they did more loans and they remained good it would improve it. If they gathered more resources-----

And what was the structure of that bonus? Was it based on a percentage? How did it ... what way did it work?

Mr. Donal Forde

It was based on a percentage of their salary. So, essentially, if targets were met ... if targets were met, they were assigned a bonus that would relate to a percentage of salary.

And what was ... typically, what would it have been ... in terms of the structure, what would have been the maximum percentage of salary for a bonus?

Mr. Donal Forde

I honestly ... I mean, at general manager level it would have been significant. It would have been 50% of salary, if not more on occasions. But as you move down, it would be much less than that.

So at manager level, they would-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I said general manager level.

At general manager level-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Of which there would have been seven or eight of them.

Countrywide. They could get a 50% bonus based on-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, it would have been of that order.

-----50% of their salary by way of a bonus.

Mr. Donal Forde

I may be corrected, but of that order yes, yes.

And typically what would a general manager be on salary wise?

Mr. Donal Forde

They would have been on ... more junior ones in the order of maybe €170,000 ... €180,000 and the more senior ones would be at €210,000 ... €220,000.

So if they were €210,000 ... let's assume they're on an average of €200,000. That means they could be getting €100,000 of an annual bonus.

Mr. Donal Forde

This, this ... that would be true of seven or eight senior people in the division.

So there was a great incentive in terms of-----

Was there?

-----sorry ... was there a great incentive ... I will have to get you to preface my questions, Chairman.

I'm available.

Was there a great incentive then in terms of a general manager encouraging his staff to promote new loans?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think the implication of your question is that would be the only means of doing that. There was ... there certainly was an incentive. Well, firstly I should say, of the eight general managers I've talked about, only four of them would be managing front-line activities. Others would be managing call centres, they'd be managing areas like electronic banking. So, there were many and different ways by which profitability could be grown, but they all had an incentive to grow profitability, yes. Of which growing loans, good loans was part of it.

And the bonus system, how did that filter down to staff ... we'll say, down the line? What bonus system was there for them?

Mr. Donal Forde

There was cash bonuses to a certain point and then there was also share option schemes ... excuse me ... there was a share grant scheme where staff were granted a profit share.

So everyone basically ... if their own portfolio was going up, everyone gained a share of the pie.

Mr. Donal Forde

If the loan portfolio was growing profitably, everyone gained a share of the pie.

And clearly up to 2007 and 2008 that was the case.

Mr. Donal Forde

It was the case to then.

Can I just ... the final question I want ... you were a member of the group board from what period?

Mr. Donal Forde

Early 2007.

Was risk ever discussed at the board level?

Mr. Donal Forde

Risk was discussed at every meeting of the board. It was a routine matter that the chief risk officer would come in with what was called the risk dashboard and present the top ten risks, and they would be discussed.

And was it discussed in terms of the exposure to property?

Mr. Donal Forde

Frequently, as I-----

Did you make your views known on it?

Mr. Donal Forde

I've acknowledged in my statement that I, mistakenly and ill-judged, felt comfortable with our position on property.

How ... for the ordinary person looking in, Mr. Forde, how can you justify that statement?

Mr. Donal Forde

I am not sure what you mean by the ordinary person-----

Well, with due respect, right, it's very easy to say that "I'm sorry and it shouldn't have happened". The bottom line here is that the Irish taxpayer ended up putting €20 billion into AIB. I believe that-----

Sorry, Deputy, you are moving into lecturing-----

No, no, I am making a point.

Just ask a question please because you're running out of time.

I want to know why you didn't raise this issue. How can you justify not raising an issue when the loan portfolio-----

Deputy, I am going to make an interjection here. You are running out of time and your questioning is running out of line. Can you put a question?

Can you go through between the period of '02 and, we'll say, '09 ... or '08?

You're out of time. Question please.

The question is, when the loan portfolio went up so dramatically, are you saying to me that during that entire period you never ... it never arose ... discussed ... raised the issue of the exposure on risk with the loan portfolio under your direction?

I'll take a very short answer on this because I've other matters that I need to be dealing with before we go to the break that maybe should be dealt with during this session.

Mr. Donal Forde

Through that time, Deputy, I worked in an environment where the OECD, the IMF, the ESRI, the Department of Finance, the Central Bank, the majority of the domestic commentators all expected ... the worst expected was a soft landing for the Irish economy. I worked through a time when all analysis was that there was a shortage of housing stock, okay? That there was a demographic that meant the demand for houses was going to increase. So, I think I would have been wiser than most if I had seen what was coming, but I didn't see it. And it's, as I have said, a matter of great regret but I can say I acted in good conscience, in good faith. I, at no time, ever had a premonition of what was going to happen. If I did I would have acted differently, but I didn't.

Taking matters a little bit back on track with you before we go back on the break there Mr. Forde, I am just delving into kind of ... just certain operations in the bank with regard to risk. And in ... the reference document for this is going to come on screen in a moment. It's AIB, Vol. 2, pages 13 and then 21. They are appropriate to staffing and training and so forth. But, in a group internal audit, a GIA report dated April 2006, concern was then being expressed that the experience levels of staff in the Republic of Ireland division - the division you headed up - would not be sufficient to manage cases through the cycle and this could lead to the bank missing significant credit events on accounts. Now, this is as things are really heating up ... it's two years out from the guarantee but we can see that the loans into different sectors are happening in particular ways. What I want to deal with you here is how ... or did management understand the importance of maintaining a balance between staff with good credit experience and more junior, more sales orientated personnel? In particular, I suppose what I am dealing with is that staffing and appropriate lending skills ... set ... these sets ... or the skillsets ...seem ... appear to have been an issue across the Irish banking industry, particularly in the mid 2000s. Were you, or how aware were you, of this problem?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think the piece that you have put up on screen ... I think that's my report to the board. So that's mine. I was aware.

Maybe you might like to comment upon that.

Mr. Donal Forde

So I was aware. Through this time, the amount of ... the degree of movement of staff - senior lending staff - from one institution to another was quite intense on occasions. So, senior lending people were highly prized assets, if I can describe it in those terms, and from time to time we in AIB lost a number ... and the loss of one or two of these was a serious blow when it happened. So, I guess I was very conscious of it and I had two concerns - one, that our remuneration was somewhere on a par with our competitors in a way that wouldn't give people a monetary incentive to move down the road, in the first instance, but that secondly that we were trying to train young people, essentially, who would be able to reinforce and step up, essentially, if that happened. It was an ongoing challenge because you don't learn credit experience overnight and one of the difficulties was that most of the people in ... many of the people, I wouldn't say most ... many of the people involved in credit management in AIB had never seen bad times. That was an anxiety.

And that kind of brings me on to what will be my final question before we go for the break. As the market conditions were then deteriorating and the loan impairments began to increase, Mr. Forde, did you consider, or was there consideration in AIB at that time, that you had sufficient trained staff with the appropriate skillset to deal with the arrears collections and manage prominent loans?

It's like playing offensive football and defensive football. This was ... you were moving from very open banking now to a far more difficult type of banking.

Mr. Donal Forde

I think we ... we didn't so much have to make that decision, if I can describe it in those terms, because from early '08, the offensive activity had stopped and, essentially, people were being put in the back line from that point forward. And you'll never have adequate resources when something of the scale of what was beginning to develop at that stage, you know, began to gather momentum. That's the truth of it. But all offensive activity stopped from early '08. From there forward, all resources were, essentially, in the back line.

And that required a different type of banking, I would imagine, and that that banking would come with a skillset. How do you think AIB were coped for the skillset that that new type of banking required?

Mr. Donal Forde

I'm not sure we had an adequate number ... you know, when ... when ... when things get that difficult you never have enough resources. So I think we tried to mitigate that as best as possible by a more centralised approach by relying more heavily on some of the senior lending people who were working, through the late 2008, 24 hours a day, so, yes, there were strains that you wouldn't consider to be appropriate at that point.

Thank you very much. Okay, I now propose that we take a break and we take a break until 4.15. Just to remind the witness that once he begins giving evidence he should not confer with any persons other than his legal team. If I can just ask Members to remain in their seats please until I actually ... thank you.

Mr. Donal Forde

Chairman, do I leave for a while?

I just need to give you some advice, Mr. Forde, just before you do, okay. The witness is reminded that once he begins giving his evidence he should not confer with any persons other than his legal team in relation to his evidence on matters that are being discussed before this committee. With that in mind, I now suspend the meeting until 4.15 p.m. and remind the witness that he's still under oath until we resume. Okay, so we're now suspended until then.

Sitting suspended at 4.02 p.m. The joint committee resumed in private session at 4.18 p.m. and went into public session at 4.21 p.m.

We are now back in public session. The next questioner is Deputy Michael McGrath who has ten minutes.

You are very welcome Mr. Forde. You were no longer MD of AIB ROI in late January or February 2009 but you remained with the bank until November 2009. What was your position during those nine months?

Mr. Donal Forde

Formally, my title was director of strategy plc but I really wasn't involved. I can't put it any more clearly than that.

What was your day-to-day work? Did you have any responsibilities?

Mr. Donal Forde

Nothing substantial.

Was your departure from the bank entirely voluntary?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

Can I ask about the system of regulation? Will you characterise how regulation applies, in your view, to AIB? On the system of regulation, what are your observations on how it worked? Do you believe it was adequate or inadequate?

Mr. Donal Forde

From an external viewpoint or internal governance?

External; the Financial Regulator. The regulation of the bank from a statutory perspective.

Mr. Donal Forde

The first thing to say is I would have been a little bit removed from that. Most of these things were handled at a group level but I would have had experience of it through my executive role. There was a number of events through that time from 2002 to 2009 that would shape my answer to your question. I came to the division as MD at the time of the Ruznak crisis which prompted a fairly radical governance review and overhaul within the bank and the regulator seemed to be intensively involved in that at the time, certainly. Then subsequently, in 2004 there was an FX charging issue. I was at the centre of that; it was in my division and I would regard the manner in which the regulator intervened, supervised and directed the bank as a consequence of that to be quite heavy-handed. It was very interventionist, very demanding. This, now, is in the context of consumer regulation, though, but it was quite ---

Yes, on that specific issue ---

Mr. Donal Forde

On that specific issue it was by no means light touch and generally I would say thereafter, as relates to matters of consumer regulation, that sort of continued. It really followed as a consequence of that but there was a great deal of pressure, intervention, review and demand, if I can use that word, from the regulator relating to fees and charges reviews and remedy of things that had gone wrong. So, it would be very wrong to characterise that as light touch, all in the context, now, of consumer regulation.

In terms of prudential supervision at the time ---

Mr. Donal Forde

Prudential supervision seemed, if only by comparison, quite light touch. That would be fair. Certainly ---

They weren't breathing down your neck.

Mr. Donal Forde

No. The only thing that immediately comes to mind is their focus on property and construction. My memory of that is an April 2007 review and I recall at the time that the regulator asked that the board "confirm its comfort" with the bank's position in property and construction. That just struck me at the time as a slightly odd phraseology for a regulator, by contrast with the terminology which would frequently be used in matters of consumer regulation.

You are drawing a clear distinction there.

Mr. Donal Forde

A very clear distinction.

The regulation was more intrusive on consumer issues than on the supervisory side.

Mr. Donal Forde

It was much more intrusive. I have seen the term "light touch" used much too frequently. It was by no means light touch in the area of consumer regulation but I don't think that would be an unfair characterisation of it from a prudential viewpoint.

Were there ongoing tensions between the bank and the regulator?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. Most or all relating to that consumer ---

Not on the prudential supervision side?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, or none that came to my attention.

Was there any fear within the bank of the regulator on the supervision side?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. I think there was a fear. I think there was a general feeling that we were excessively industrious, if I can use that phrase, around all matters of charges, fee reviews and so on. Historically there was a great amount of resources tied up in it. There was no satisfying the regulator on some of those points. It seemed pretty intense all the time and demanding.

Can I ask you about the issue of losing deposits? You said in your statement that the liquidity concerns really weren't relevant to ROI. It was more capital markets and the UK ---

Mr. Donal Forde

I wouldn't say they weren't relevant but they were predominantly in the other two divisions.

In the fraught environment of September 2008, for example, you will recall the "Liveline" show covering the safety of peoples' deposits in banks on Thursday, 18 September. It was reported at the time that €50 million was placed in An Post State-guaranteed savings accounts in a 24-hour period. On 20 September Minister Lenihan increased the deposit guarantee from €20,000 to €100,000. Were you losing deposits at that time?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

At what kind of rate were you losing deposits?

Mr. Donal Forde

Forgive me, I don't have the detail on it but not at a rate that was of major concern. I recall a number of large depositors with whom I would have had a personal engagement in an effort to reassure them about the standing of the bank. I can recall a few large deposits and yes, at a sort of low level, there was a constant movement of deposits but not of a scale and volume that was threatening.

Mr. Donal Forde

Not that much. Remember the corporate deposits were in the capital markets division more substantially.

Mr. Donal Forde

I don't want to suggest it wasn't a concern but not with the intensity that I know preoccupied the other two divisions.

During your time at the bank was there ever any evidence that dissenting voices were suppressed or that anybody who raised serious concerns about the sustainability of the model didn't have a proper airing of those concerns?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I have only one recollection. I remember one of our board members asking that we look at the question of our property and construction positioning in more detail and asking for a presentation on it. I do remember that. It was frequently under discussion. There is no other way to describe it. We regularly revisited the logic of where we were positioned in property and construction but never in a manner that changed that position.

You acknowledged earlier a number of failings, particularly on the issue of lending and the dependence on one sector. To what extent was AIB really chasing Anglo and chasing the spectacular growth in profits, in turnover, in dividend and in share price that Anglo was enjoying? To what extent were you trying to keep up with that?

Mr. Donal Forde

I have seen in the last while media commentary that we were chasing Anglo. That isn't fair, I don't think. I certainly wasn't conscious that we were chasing Anglo but we were chasing the pack, if I can describe it in those terms. We were regularly being challenged by the investors, by shareholders and by the analysts as to how we were going to keep pace, not just with Anglo but with other Irish banks and with some very fast-growing UK and continental banks.

So, yes, it's true to say there was a lot of pressure for performance. But Anglo ... see I'm careful to say that because, to be fair, it's true that lending was the core of where the growth was coming from but the bank was trying to diversify away from that. Certainly one of my objectives all the time - formally given to me - was to try to diversify the earning stream of the divisions, so more fees and charges income, more from health and life insurance and the like. So there was an objective to diversify but it's true that ... that the substance of our performance was coming from loan growth.

Yes. Can I ask, did you have property expertise within the bank? Property experts.

Mr. Donal Forde

I consider that we had some really strong people in property. That was my view.

In what function? What roles did they have?

Mr. Donal Forde

Particularly the people who worked in the property or construction sectoral team, as we called it, who were engaging with the clients. And I regarded that also we had some people of equal standing in the credit functions. So I thought we had some very competent people.

Okay. And finally ... when loans were being extended to property development construction, are you satisfied that the bank had adequate oversight of the full exposure across the different banks of the borrowers?

Mr. Donal Forde

If you'd asked me the question when I left I would have said yes. I think it's clear from what ... some developments subsequently that we didn't. I'm not sure what weight to attach to that because sometimes if you're lending you're lending into a legal entity and-----

Well, it might have meant the borrower was over indebted?

Mr. Donal Forde

It was but ... it was, and that stands. But ... but if you're lending into a particular sub-unit in the legal entity, sometimes it's not of huge concern to you what's happening elsewhere with the relationship -----

Is it your view now that some lending decisions were made without the full picture being available?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. I don't know how the full picture might have changed the way ... but you're right ... we didn't have the information we should have.

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Forde.

Maybe just to round that off ... It's just on the issue of valuation. How was the expertise gathered or was ... and applied in AIB with applying valuations? It's one thing to give a loan to somebody's capacity to be able to pay it back, but a valuation has to be put on what's been purchased as well. How, what was the expertise like around the valuations?

Mr. Donal Forde

An experienced credit person would be somebody who had been looking .... I mean, the people who were to the fore in that respect in the division and at group level were people who had been active in reviewing property cases for 20 years. Okay? And what they would bring to that consideration is, as I've said, a first-order analysis of essentially the asset that was being purchased. If it was for residential development, you know, how many houses would be built, at what cost ... you know, what was the track record of the developer in delivering these, in what timeframe? And you work it back from first principles. If you're going to sell ten houses with a net profitability on each of whatever €50,000 and you've worked that back, you can just calculate the value of the land and you discount that in some measure for safety. So it's a first principles analysis, if you like, of what the value of the asset is relative to what it's going to produce.

Was the value not changing the lending model? So let's say, for instance, your ... as often is used as a kind of a barometer ... the guard married to the nurse. They were going to take a mortgage out over 20 years, whoever was the chief earner - whether it was the guard or the nurse - it would be three times their income and then the guard or the nurse's annual income applied. But ... and that would be ... that was a very set ratio. But over a period of time we saw that going into multiples of what the earning capacities were and the mortgage schedules getting longer and longer, going from 20 years nearly out to 40 years. At any stage ... was it ... did somebody say "It's not the valuations of the properties now is the issue, it's the capacity and the affordability to pay?"

Mr. Donal Forde

I'm sorry, I'd answered your question originally in the context of commercial lending.

Yes, yes but-----

Mr. Donal Forde

In the context of mortgages, I think you're right to some degree. I think the emphasis shifted from the simplicity of a multiple or one or the other.

It shifted to this capacity of the borrower to be able to meet the repayment. The formula was that all mortgages had to be stress tested for interest rates, if I remember, for 2% higher than prevailed to make sure that the borrower was able to meet the repayments. That sort of model did become more prevalent rather than the simple one that you described. So it is true to say, I think, that the model failed a little bit. I am acknowledging that-----

Did anybody in AIB say at the time "that model, where is this going"? I mean, if one operates on the assumption that all purchasing markets are required upon - if I am selling my car tomorrow morning to buy a new car, somebody has to come in and buy a second hand car. The housing market is very much contingent upon first-time buyers to come in to allow people to trade up and trade down and all the rest of it, and that affordability for first-time buyers was becoming so difficult that the State had brought in a package of affordable housing, which was supposed to be subsidised housing. In Cork affordable housing was €250,000. This was council housing that was subsidised at €250,000. It is probably worth less than half of that in today's market. So you had this massive compounding snowballing effect. Was anybody in the bank saying that this is a concern?

Mr. Donal Forde

If I can just step back a bit for context, I guess we were very conscious that the value of houses had become inflated. I think our difficulty, and I now accept that mistake, but our difficulty was that we did not see that changing dramatically because the view we had was that we were in an environment where there was a shortage of housing stock ... in the capital at least, in the greater Dublin area. Probably still the case today. We had an influx of people coming into the country from eastern Europe and so forth. We had a demographic where the baby boomers of the 80s were coming into house. So you had a scenario and you had - the outlook, it seemed, was one for continued economic expansion. We did not see how it was that there was going to be a significant change in the fact that houses were going to be more expensive and going to demand more of the proportion of disposable income to service them. We sort of accepted that. For that reason then, the shift in the model, I suppose, looking more at the capacity of the borrower to be able to meet the repayments even if interest rates rose became more the issue, rather than a concern about the inflated value of the house. I am not justifying our approach now in hindsight, but I am trying to rationalise the way we were thinking at the time.

But it was never flagged as a problem? Okay, we can see that the prices are going up but is somebody going to say "Is there a sustainability issue here"?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think we focused on trying to make sure that each of the borrowers was in a sustainable position. I think too much so, and with too little thought for the total picture. I think that's fair.

Senator Barrett.

Thank you Chairman. You are very welcome, Mr. Forde. On page 4, part of the professional valuations were frequently but not always thought by AIB to evaluate property as a security. Could I refer to AIB before Vol. 1 on page 10. You were referring to part 2006 in your statement today, but the board minutes show this problem persisted two and a half years later, 2006, 2007 and half way through 2008. There was a discussion about AIB's practice of not seeking professional property valuations, and whether this will have implications in terms of financial accounts to giving a true and fair view. So, given that the commercial property went up 14 times from €8 billion to €112 billion, and the residential, as you have been saying to us, went up much less, €25 billion to €122 billion, the practice of not doing the valuations was still of concern at board level on 24 July 2008.

Mr. Donal Forde

Can I just ask for the reference again, just so that I can

Indeed. Thank you. It is page 10. It may be on your screen now. It is AIB, B4, it was issued to us on 31 March. The paragraph begins at the conclusion. In fact, the other two below it are redacted.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, I see the piece. And the commitment that was made in the directive in '06 was that valuations over a certain, for security, over €5 million or €4 million, was to be valued. I think that would be a reference to ... that would be a reference to valuations for the ... for smaller values. So it's not ... I think it may be wrong to suggest that ... that's indicative of any ... that's indicative that the 2006 directive hadn't been covered.

Could I ... AIB B2 on page 6, if we could have that one up please.

What volume Senator?

Vol. 1, thank you Chairman. As that's being sought, it refers to a board discussion, AIB's exposure to the broad property building construction sector, amounted to 260% of own funds, while the limit was 250%. And let me go on, the board requested that this issue be pursued with the IFSRA, given that the standards clearly required revision. Is that me saying I was speeding but the speed limits were wrong, kind of ... you know or ... it's a pretty strange attitude to the regulator that you assumed that at the board level, the regulator was at fault.

Mr. Donal Forde

We sort of mentioned this previously, maybe ... my ... I wouldn't have had any direct engagement with the regulator here but my understanding was this, we were in breach of the limits ... we were in breach of a limit that set out a singular constraint on the totality of all property and construction lending. That had been in place for a long time. What was going on in prudential circles at the time, and there is reference to it here in the paragraph just before that, what was going on at the time, was the introduction of Basel II conventions to analyse, and these were new protocols that were being introduced for the assessment of risk attaching to loans, and the thrust of those was not to look on loans as one homogeneous set, but to break them into what were called logical portfolios and to look at the particular risk attributes that are attached to each of them. My understanding is that the regulator was also of the view that that's where they needed to go and for that reason that the old limit was somewhat ... somewhat redundant and were in conversation with AIB saying, "How are you doing this, and actually how are you getting comfort with the scale of your exposure and is the board comfortable with it?" And then, as part of that presentation, AIB set out how it went about assessing its portfolio in this new way under this new methodology and the board, it seems, took comfort with that and is saying, okay well, let's then make it clear in our engagement with the regulator, let's have this new formula adopted but let's not have this indecision as to what particular standard of measurement is to apply. That is my understanding of what was going on but I was not directly in discussion with them.

Now on B3, Vol. 1, page 17 and it's also Vol. 1 for our colleagues-----

Okay, volume?

Yes, Vol. 1, Chairman. This deals with a proposal to revise the adjusted loan-deposit ratio. How did it get to the board? Did somebody propose it? Did somebody second it? Because it makes a 162% ratio into a 115% ratio. Was this also because we didn't like the regulator when we went over the limit? I mean, again, it seems to illustrate to me a casual attitude towards regulation. If you don't like the rules you adjust it to make it a different set.

Mr. Donal Forde

Okay, I'm ... Let me first say that this wouldn't be my direct area of responsibility but my understand ... I don't believe that's a regulatory constraint. I don't believe there was any regulatory constraint on loan to deposit. I may be wrong on that but that's my belief. What was happening here was that the market was putting a strong focus on the loan-to-deposit ratio in different institutions, but, again, this changing methodology in the marketplace was an issue and that rather than the simplicity of this customer loans and totality over customer deposits, the market was looking for a more informed ratio, where the value of long-term deposits was recognised or the saleability or liquidity of assets was recognised in the formula and that's what this adjusted loan-to-deposit ratio achieves.

So this isn't a regulatory matter, I don't think, Senator. This is a matter of the way in which AIB presents a picture of itself to the marketplace. The marketplace was looking for something that was more nuanced and that's what was proposed.

Because our briefing notes were that it should have been at 120% and I appreciate what you said and thank you for the answer and so that when it went to 157%, we found a way to bring it back to 115% with many commentators suggesting that the ratio in excess of 120% to be less than ideal.

Mr. Donal Forde

I think I would answer your question more freely in this respect. I think we were, looking back, we were going through a period right through from 2002 to 2008 when generally banks globally were being driven to more efficiency, more efficiency meaning that you were endeavouring to squeeze, if I can express it in those terms, performance out of every aspect of the business and it is right to say that I think we were being pushed and responding to a marketplace that was constantly pressing us into positions, perhaps, of more risk, of more efficiency, more leverage of assets all the time. I think that is true to say but I am just making the distinction between the previous one which was certainly coming from the regulator, this was coming from the market.

Now the fact that 56% discount had to be applied to AIB, only 5 points off, what does that mean about the conduct of the bank that it ended up as a silver medalist to Anglo in a competition nobody wanted to be in?

Mr. Donal Forde

Sorry, this in the context of?

This is the discount that NAMA applied to what was transferred over from AIB, 56% and Anglo was 61% and Bank of Ireland was 43%.

Mr. Donal Forde

I find it difficult to answer this, Senator, because that happened a year and a half after I stepped down as divisional managing director so I just don't know too much about the performance of the portfolio in that period of time. It's a disappointment to me and something of a surprise to me but I don't know how the portfolio was managed or how it developed in that period after I left.

I see the conference of management on 22 March 2007, the title was "Poised on the edge of greatness". I mean, was the board in no way anticipating what was just around the corner?

Mr. Donal Forde

In fairness I saw that.

Next question.

That is the last one, Chairman, thank you.

Mr. Donal Forde

I saw that, it's not the title of the senior management presentation. I think it's a title of a presentation made by Mercer Oliver Wyman to us. It wasn't the board's view of itself.

Glad to hear that. It is over your logo. Thank you very much. Thanks, Chairman.

Mr. Donal Forde

I know.

Thank you, Mr. Forde. I just need to deal with a matter there in regard to solicitor undertakings. Maybe you could explain to the committee in layman's terms what a solicitor undertaking actually is.

Mr. Donal Forde

Okay. It's an undertaking essentially to put the security into effect, whatever that might involve and you leave that in the hands of the solicitor. He undertakes to do that for you and it's as simple as that really. You might be taking possession of deeds or might be taking possession of some documents of title and they would involve frequently work at the registry and so forth and the Land Registry and the solicitor will undertake to do those.

It means a kind of securitising an asset and so forth.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

Okay alright. So the loan then would be issued on foot of that security being ribboned and bowed legally.

Mr. Donal Forde

Issued on foot of the security and then the solicitor would undertake to perfect that security.

Okay. There was an internal audit in AIB in April 2006 highlighting an issue relating to outstanding solicitor undertakings in the Republic of Ireland division, your division. It's the reference page, it's actually up on the screen there in front of you but just for noting purposes, it's AIB B4, Vol. 1, page 20.

And in that audit it would demonstrate that outstanding solicitors' undertakings was No. 1 in the top three outstanding internal audit issues, as late as October 2008. This was a continuous issue that was running through AIB. Was the board aware of this level of difficulty that was there in solicitors' undertakings and them being accepted, relating to property being taken as security, and the lengthy delay in perfecting security in many cases, and was there even situations that when the undertaking wasn't even complete, that the loan was being issued anyway?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, the loan would always be issued subject to the undertaking because you didn't have the facility to perfect the security there and then. I suppose you're ... I think I'll answer it in two ways, Chair. The first is to say that I, and I reference this in my statement, the first thing is, I suppose, to make sure that we see this issue in context. The practice for all the larger exposures was that the security was handed over to be perfected to first and second order legal firms. So they would do it for the bank. So those loan cases with greater exposures were never a problem, they were not an issue. So this issue related to the lower level cases, but yes, it was a constant difficulty, and as you see, the audit ... that audit report would have been given the board so they were aware of it, but it was one of those issues that I was always working on and we were never ... we were never in a comfortable position. But it would be important not to overstate that, as I've said, because all the larger exposures would not be at issue here.

Okay. Did AIB in all circumstances follow up and ensure that the security had in fact actually been registered?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes well, each loan ... each loan case was reviewed annually at least. So this was part of the work of the credit committees. A loan case would come up for review and if they had a concern about it they would stipulate that it was to be reviewed in perhaps three or six months' time. Part of that review was to confirm the standing of the security. So-----

And are you aware that there are issues with NAMA when they actually took over the loan portfolios?

Mr. Donal Forde

I am and I-----

That the registration never actually took place?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I again ... I'm one and a half years removed from that point but that wouldn't surprise me that there were some issues relating to the lower level orders of exposure, around solicitors' undertakings. I'd be surprised if there's any significant issue with the higher levels because they were always considered to be in good order.

But there was a roll-over at the review. There was a roll-over of this difficulty on an ongoing basis within ... and it was a significant issue between 2006 and 2008.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes it was, but I ... again, Deputy, I just ... important ... at the ... the lower order cases. I wouldn't think there was a problem with the higher ones.

Alright, thank you.

Mr. Donal Forde

Higher ones being those over €20 million of loan.

Deputy John Paul Phelan.

Thank you Chair. Mr. Forde, I have a few questions also. I want to refer to the evidence given earlier by Mr. Gleeson. In his testimony he was asked about AIB being caught in the wake of Anglo, and to quote him directly, he said "we tried not to be brought in the wake but in many ways we were." I just want to know, in terms of your role, as managing director of AIB from 2002 to 2009, in the Republic of Ireland, was there any direction from the board, from the chair, as to how not to be brought in the wake of Anglo Irish Bank, can you recollect?

Mr. Donal Forde

Let me try and answer it this way, I suppose the first thing to say is I think he's ... I take his reply to mean that he's speaking in the context of the performance of the bank, such things as share price performance, and so forth. In a way that was up there, if I can describe it in those terms. At my level, Anglo was just one of a number of people that were very aggressively targeting our business. I would have gotten no direction to deal with any one competitor more than another. I would have constantly been relaying information about threats or inroads in our business from Anglo, yes, but Bank of Scotland, Ulster Bank, Danske Bank, Bank of Ireland, so I wouldn't have held Anglo in any particular place from my perspective. From his, I suspect that in terms of accounting for the performance of the bank to the investor community, would be a constant thorn in-----

There was no real discussion about Anglo or other specific competitors in terms of the Republic of Ireland business that you were managing director of.

Mr. Donal Forde

There was ongoing discussion about them, but not a direction-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Not in any direction to respond to them in one way or another, no.

In response to Deputy McGrath ... he asked about lending concentrations in particular sectors and you said that they were frequently under discussion. You also said that there wasn't decisions, I suppose, taken as to how to change that. You outlined that one of your roles specifically was to diversify. How successful were you and the Republic of Ireland operation in terms of that attempt to diversify?

Mr. Donal Forde

Not very. Well, I made that comment earlier in this respect at diversification between different lines of business, and so there was a very heavy push to try to increase the profitability from deposits, from health insurance, life insurance, from fees and charges, from electronic banking. So, the push was on from that perspective. There was also a focus on trying as best as possible to diversify the loan book. I was more successful with the first of those objectives than I was with the second, and I suppose the reason that I wasn't successful at all with the second was it's rather difficult ... in some respects, you have to respond to the business that your customers want to do. And, unfortunately, property and construction was where it was all happening, so it made it difficult.

Deputy Murphy asked ... was first, I think, to ask the question about sectoral ... the levels of lending into specific sectors, and you said - it was an interesting direct quote again - that the board "wrestled" with this issue about ... can you outline to the inquiry the nature of that wrestling? And, in the sense, is it not ... I don't want to put words in your mouth or be accused of leading you, but "wrestling with one's conscience and winning" is a phrase that might come to mind as to how the board dealt with the matter. Or it might not, just to leave it an open question.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, what I meant by it was that, frequently at annual planning time, there would be discussion, essentially, about the outturn from the previous year, what it had meant in terms of loan growth, and that was the point at which the expectations for the year ahead were signed off at the board. So, I can recall discussions at that time about whether this was appropriate. There certainly was a consciousness that we were intensely involved in property and construction, so I can remember discussions at that time. I can remember this discussion that's here, this stress test prompted by the regulator asking the board to validate that its weight of exposure in property and construction ... that it was comfortable with it. So, I can remember that. Certainly, no surprise in 2008, as the market began to turn down, there was discussion. So, I think it is fair to say the board wrestled with it.

But didn't take any particular ... or did they take particular action?

Mr. Donal Forde

No. Well, we didn't change position, so-----

Okay. That's-----

Mr. Donal Forde

-----I have to acknowledge that.

No, my time is limited, and-----

Mr. Donal Forde

But if I could just add just a small point to that, I think the reason we didn't change position, and the reason I didn't feel uncomfortable personally, was that stress test that I've just shown you there. We had a mistaken view, I think, of the degree of exposure that we were running.

Mr. Donal Forde

That's it.

I want to specifically refer to the standards of the Financial Regulator at the time. And I ... Basel II has been mentioned a lot and the transformation that was taking place within AIB and maybe other organisations at the time, but did those rules still stand or not with regard to sectoral lending, the 200% figure and the 250% for related sectors, and the fact that AIB was at least one third over both of those headings in terms of lending into property and development? And I don't ... like, Basel II-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I understand, yes. It's a fair ... if you'll forgive me, I don't know - and that may seem an odd question - because I wouldn't have engaged directly with the regulator. What I'm led to believe, essentially, is that the regulator also felt that they had become redundant.

Who led you to believe?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think you'll see a reference to it there in the presentations. I think Kevin-----

At the time, though, did ... who was leading you to believe it or was this an issue that you were wrestling with yourself at the time?

Mr. Donal Forde

No. If I ... I wasn't wrestling with that, no. I didn't see that as an issue, but I'm trying to make it clear I didn't speak directly with the regulator.

The fact that AIB was so over the thresholds, which are described as standards in AIB's own document-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

-----which I quoted at-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I think, from my perspective, I have described the engagements with the regulator in all other matters, if I can describe them like that, relating to the consumer ... which were pretty rigid, pretty uncompromising. In this regard, the fact that every bank, to my knowledge, in the country was over those limits and had an excessive exposure with property and construction and that the regulator hadn't simply said, "This isn't acceptable" suggested to me that they were not applicable.

I know. You were ... I'm asking you specifically as managing director of operations.

Mr. Donal Forde

I understood that they were not applicable. I understood that they had fallen to the wayside.

Did you not have any concerns yourself, though, as the popular .. or the possible exposure of your operation, which was under your management in the Republic of Ireland? That's ... I'm asking about your response?

Mr. Donal Forde

Okay, that's fair, okay. I frequently had conversations with people within my division and people above me about the scale of property and construction. All I can say to you is, and I acknowledge the error of it, but I at no point, no point, considered that anything like what has transpired was possible. I simply didn't.

And I understand, and the phrase you used earlier-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I simply-----

----- in response to Deputy O'Donnell was, "At no point had I a premonition." That's fair enough, but I'm asking about your role as ... of oversight.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, okay.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well------

-----your position with people more senior than yourself in the organisation to raise those concerns?

Mr. Donal Forde

No. Well, no is the answer, but let me just put that in context. I saw ... it's not ... my responsibility wasn't a one-dimensional one, if I can describe it in those terms, so the risk in our portfolio was one; the profitability that was expected of the division would be another; our relevance to be able to meet the needs of customers was another. There was a general clamour at that time that the domestic banks, AIB amongst them, was losing position and relevance with customers and that other banks coming in from outside were far more relevant. So, in the balance of those things and with the belief that the risk in the portfolio was of the order that's outlined in the stress test that wouldn't threaten our capital, I didn't consider that we were in an imprudent place.

I've just one last, very brief question. Dr. John FitzGerald, in evidence to the committee, a number of weeks ago, expressed the view that a senior official within AIB had raised with him, at the end of October 2005, concerns with regards to stress tests and exposure to the property sector. That has since been disputed by the said senior official. Were you aware, at that time or subsequently, of that discussion and those meetings that took place?

Mr. Donal Forde

No.

Do you have a comment or a view on that?

Mr. Donal Forde

I said no, I wasn't, Chairman, no.

You ... okay, okay.

Mr. Donal Forde

I wasn't aware. That was news to me when I saw it.

Okay. Deputy Higgins.

Mr. Forde, did you see the testimony yesterday of the chief executive and chairman of NAMA?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I didn't, unfortunately. I haven't been able to review it.

Okay. Can I put some of that testimony to you from the chairman, Frank Daly? And both made serious reference to the equality of the security that banks had or didn't have, in terms of massive loans. Mr. Daly said, "The safety zone of borrower equity usually existed only on paper. The result is that the borrower was typically not the first to lose. In the event of a crash, the banks stood to take 100% of the losses and that's what happened." He said, "The model did not appear to require a stringent approach by borrowers to analysing project feasibility." And he said, "Very little, if any, consideration was given to the inherent cyclical nature of the property markets. The attitude appears to have been that the only way was up, that somehow the forces of gravity were suspended as far as the Irish market was concerned and that the long established pattern of property market cycles was no longer relevant." Does any of that apply to Allied Irish Banks?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think some of it applies, Deputy. I'd be the first to acknowledge that I think we did lose sight of the cycle; I think that's fair. I think the reason for that was that ... my personal view was that there was some order of economic transformation going on in the country; the number of people in employment was growing dramatically, we'd had a period of expansion, and all of the indications were that ... not at the same pace, but that it was sustainable. So, I certainly was misled into the view that we were not in some bubble but we were in some, as I've said, economic transformation that was in some way more sustainable, so I-----

And some would say you were building houses for the people that were coming into ... or to build them, but we'll leave that aside for the moment. In terms of the type of rigour or non-rigour that was brought to projects that came, of a large order, before you, does the charge that the NAMA chairman and chief executive made apply?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think it's true in some measure at least, and by that I mean this: I've set out in my paper, like, it's the manner in which we approached loan proposals for property and construction. And it was to ensure that there was security in place, to the order, generally, of 70% of the loan, but, more importantly, to make sure that in the first instance that there was a demonstrable means by which the loan could be repaid. That was done. I think where it fell down was that that challenge, if you will, to the repayment capacity of the loan was not rigorous enough at all. I do accept that.

Yes. In that regard-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I do accept that.

-----we had testimony from Professor Black. Are you familiar with Professor Black?

Mr. Donal Forde

No.

No. He's a quite well known former regulator, academic and financial prosecutor from the United States. And he came to give us testimony, and he spoke about a similar situation, of banks or financial institutions extending loans. And he said we intervened to stop loans that we called liar loans, and the Chairman, Deputy Lynch, intervened and asked: "In terms of what Professor Black means by "liar loans", are they loans on which people more or less self-assessed themselves?" And Professor Black says: "Yes. It is US business parlance." Would you describe some of the loans that were extended by Allied Irish Bank as liars' loans in the context in which Professor Black-----

Mr. Donal Forde

No. No, and I think it's worth me saying this emphatically: I don't think, even now with the benefit of hindsight, there was an absence of rigour, if you will, in terms of the process of looking at loans. Our weakness was in the assumptions by which we tested them and stressed them. They were just not remotely challenging enough. I don't ... there was a lot of attention, an enormous amount of attention given to loans. I think the processes were pretty rigorously followed, but the assumptions that guided those processes were wrong, they just were not conservative enough-----

How much ... what total volume of loans went into NAMA from Allied Irish Banks?

Mr. Donal Forde

It was something like €20 million ... €20 billion. Twenty-----

Twenty billion?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, I think ... I may stand corrected; that's-----

Well, would that suggest that indeed there was a catastrophic fall down in regard to the collateral and the security that was available?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, I don't quarrel with that at all. I mean, I ... as I've said, we simply did not anticipate the confluence of things that came about and which left us hugely compromised. I have no argument-----

You say to us today Mr. Forde:

AIB lending decisions were based on the belief, now obviously mistaken, that long established, experienced scale-players in the property market represented a better risk than smaller less experienced counterparties. They were seen to have had a track record of performance and built up significant equity."

A stunning irony struck me in relation to that, I will ask you to comment upon, that at the end of virtually every advertisement for a bank, is "past performance is no indication of future return." Was that the situation here?

Mr. Donal Forde

Let me try and rationalise the thinking that was going on at the time, and it's this. If you can imagine ... earlier on I described I suppose a simple loan project where someone, a developer, has to buy land and go through that long period during which they pay for the land, they develop the housing stock and then they sell it. Through all that time there is no revenue whatsoever to be got. If you are dealing with a larger player that has a number of these projects afoot at one time, they tend to be at different stages of maturity so typically you'll have some projects that are closer to revenue and sales than others. That helps to make the loan a more manageable proposal from the lender's viewpoint. So the principle of working with a more diversified player that has experience and a track record in building houses on time and within budget, that stands. What fell down here was that there was such a collapse of economic activity that every element of these different businesses - whether they were involved in residential development or whether they were involved in commercial development - all of them simply weren't able to produce revenue and that logic became completely unstuck. So I am in a sense defending the principle of working with a diversified player in any industry. But it afforded us no protection here in the way things developed, as we imagined it would.

Mr. Forde, the report of the Allied Irish Banks said that in 2004 you took home a salary of €575,000 and a bonus of €600,000 - €1.75 million. Is that an inordinate amount of money, in view particularly of what happened very shortly after that? And secondly, my last question is in relation to the people out there who have been burned badly as a result of the bubble and crash and what the banks and the bondholders did. Do you understand how bitter they feel towards the bankers like yourself?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. It seems an inordinate amount of money in hindsight and in the context of what happened. As I tried to indicate in my statement, I spent my professional life with AIB. I suppose it was my life, it was my career - the interests of the bank were what woke me up in the morning and took me to bed at night. So, I'm very conscious of my failure, I'm very conscious of the bank's failure and I'm hugely conscious of the implications of it for everybody concerned. I say that as genuinely as I can and looking back, I do accept that you know, the salaries we were paid now seem silly. They didn't then in the context of what people in the banking sector earned here at home and abroad. I had two job offers during that period, one domestically and one abroad that offered more money. So I had no sense that I was as overpaid as I now seem to have been in hindsight. I do fully understand that bitterness it creates. I fully understand the disappointment that there is with us. I have no quarrel with that, it is justified. I am very conscious of the manner in which we did leave people down. All I can say again is that I acted at all times in what I thought was good faith and best conscience. I never woke up of a morning with any real concern that the bank was in a position of difficulty. I am wrong on that, but I am guilty of a bad judgment, but no more than that.

Mr. Forde, have you watched any of the proceedings of the banking inquiry to date?

Mr. Donal Forde

I haven't watched ... I've read the ... up to last week, I think most of them. I've read most of the ... of what's ... but I haven't watched them.

Professor Black that Deputy Higgins quoted, he had a term that he used that was crucial for lending, which was ... it's not a very academic term but it was, "grow like crazy", and when he was asked what was "grow like crazy", in terms of percentage growth, he said 30% was reckless. The expansion of the loan book of AIB for property in construction averaged 29% per annum, and that was in the sector that you were in charge of. Would you have considered your growth in that sector reckless?

Mr. Donal Forde

No. I didn't then.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, in hindsight ... reckless is a strong word.

Mr. Donal Forde

I consider it ill-judged but I did not consider it reckless at the time, you know. And the reason I didn't consider it reckless was for the very reason that you'll see in those stress tests. My understanding was that the level of exposure we were running was not threatening to the bank even in an extreme case. That would be my definition of reckless.

Simon Carswell, in his book, Anglo Republic, page 55, stated that there was a win-back team in AIB. I can only assume it's within your sector, to win back-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I saw reference to that, yes.

Yes. Was there a win-back team in AIB?

Mr. Donal Forde

When I joined the division ... when I took responsibility for the division ... this would have been back in about 2002-2003, I asked three people - so the team was three people - to look at business we were losing from long-established customers and to ask if we should be competing in some way more vigorously to win it back. That's what has later been described as a win-back team or win-back strategy. I think that's far too grand a term for it.

And were those three people ... were they senior executives or mid-ranking?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, they would be middle ranking people. I think too much is made of that by Mr. Carswell. I mean, there was ... those three people were in place but it was no more than a standard measure to make sure we were competitive with customers that we valued.

Can I ask you, Mr. Forde, your ... you spoke a lot about the credit risk within the sector, within the institution, and they seem very much at arm's length away from yourself as the senior manager in terms of the retail sector of AIB in the Republic of Ireland. Was there any ... you also said that you did phone people in terms of deposits ... you made some phonecalls.

Mr. Donal Forde

We met ... met physically with two and phoned one.

Okay, but was there any occasion ... I suppose what I'm coming at is: it seems very pure, it seems very straight lines in terms of the independence of each sector. Was there ever an occasion that you saw a loan that you thought was-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I ... for better or worse, I'm not sure which, I didn't get involved with individual loan cases, no, no, ever. Because my view of that was the chief credit officer had 25 years' experience in lending. He was the one we had mandated to review loans. If I stepped in to a review of a case and offered a view, well, I was going to colour that judgment potentially, and that wasn't adding any value. So I didn't look at individual cases, never had an input into one.

You didn't look at them at all. They were-----

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I looked ... sorry, sorry, forgive me. I didn't have an input into them in the sense of offering a view on them.

Were there occasions that you thought-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, there were occasions I would look at individual cases.

But, sorry, were some of those cases that you looked at, were there occasions that you thought that this is over-the-top lending, this is very generous, that potentially there may be a problem?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, there would have been occasions in which I would have asked to have the rationale of the case explained to me and pretty much always I would understand the perspective that the credit officer had taken when it was explained to me.

Were there occasions that potentially the credit officer would have said, "No," that you would have requested-----

Mr. Donal Forde

No.

Mr. Donal Forde

No. I mean, generally, the cases I would have been ... they would have been ... typically would have been questions about the return on the case or some matter where there might have been conflict between one aspect of managing the case and another. My involvement would be more at that level rather than in offering a view on the credit exposure per se.

Jim O'Leary, in 2004, it's been touched upon earlier, in relation to a director who had concerns about property and construction-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

-----subsequently, 2007, Alan Ahearne had concerns that property in construction was overvalued by 30%.

Were you concerned at any stage during your term that with the increase of the balance sheet that there was a significant overexposure within AIB for property and construction?

Mr. Donal Forde

I was conscious of the weight of our business that was in property and construction. I was party to discussions above me and below me as to whether or not we were in an appropriate place. The conclusion of all of those discussions ultimately was that we were in an appropriate place and that, you know the rationale for that was the view we had of the risk which I now accept was mistaken. The fact we weren't growing at any pace that was faster than people in the market and the fact that, notwithstanding that there was one or two people who were critical, the broad mass of those who essentially were offering a view on the market and offering analysis of the market were positive about the outlook.

Your ... and just very quickly as my time is running out, the Mercer Oliver Wyman report in 2007 were ... was that part of your group's ... your sector's requesting them to come in and present a seminar to AIB.

Mr. Donal Forde

No, my place it would have been the chairman who would have asked them. I don't know if it was a report so much as they were asked to make a presentation.

A presentation, yes. Can I touch upon the solvency issue, Mr. Forde. PwC were requested by the Financial Regulator to conduct analysis into the banks. The project was called Project Atlas. They took the evaluations from within the banks and presented them to the Financial Regulator. You were there until February 2009, the report was presented to the Minister around that stage. Were you in sight of Project Atlas? You weren't.

Mr. Donal Forde

I was aware of what was going on, but I hadn't seen those-----

Were you ... were you contacted in relation to the valuations or anything of that nature?

Mr. Donal Forde

I don't think so.

Mr. Donal Forde

But that ... that wouldn't surprise me, the people to contact would be the credit officers. You know if you were reviewing cases, so no I wasn't interviewed directly by them, from memory.

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I don't think so. No. I certainly don't recall it.

Can I ask, Mr. Forde, in terms of your sector ... your sector was ... from evidence from Mr. Gleeson this morning, was effectively the sector that brought the bank into insolvency.

Mr. Donal Forde

The division.

Your division. Were there people within your division who offered contrarian views and if there were was it ... Mr. Gleeson outlined an avenue in which those concerning views could go directly to him. Did that happen on any occasion within your sector?

Mr. Donal Forde

To my knowledge, no.

Mr. Donal Forde

No. Sorry, one of those avenues was confidential so unless somebody used that ... but none that I am aware of, ever.

But ... I would have assumed that-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I would have assumed that if there was he would have come to me, he didn't. He never did.

So that avenue was unused?

Mr. Donal Forde

Correct.

As far as you are concerned, in your division.

Mr. Donal Forde

Correct.

Did anybody come to you directly with a contrarian view?

Mr. Donal Forde

No.

From within your division?

Mr. Donal Forde

No ... we would have had, just as I have outlined, the wrestling a little bit at the board, our own management team within the division would have frequently had conversations about what was happening in the markets, so in a sense we had the same discussions there.

Mr. Donal Forde

And yes as part of those discussions people, like this around the table would have offered points of challenge. But, no I can say definitively nobody ever made a point of indicating that they were in disagreement with our positioning fundamentally. No.

Can I just ask you how many-----

Final question Senator.

Finally can how many within your division that you would have been within had your conversation with in terms of that?

Mr. Donal Forde

My principle conversation would be with the management team that was variously between ten ... eight and ten people. They would be my first order of reference.

Mr. Donal Forde

And then I would have a conversation with some of the lending executives from time to time.

And finally can I ask, Mr. Forde, would that not seem unusual that everybody was on the same page? That surely there would have been somebody with a contrarian view that the loan book ... that the balance sheet was expanding too rapidly, that there was an overexposure to the group, that potentially, I mean I'm surprised that nobody took that opportunity to say it to you, I'm surprised that the avenue that Mr. Gleeson put in place-----

I...you're moving into value judgment, now ask the question, please.

Well, the question I'm asking is, were people afraid to offer a countering view?

Mr. Donal Forde

I certainly don't think so. It's for others to judge, but I don't think my style was ever intimidating. I made a practice of actually having a lot of personal conversations with people and I'd like to think I was approachable, so no, I don't think they were afraid at all. I'm, I'm pretty sure of that but others would have to validate that; I would feel confident in saying that. I think ... I don't want to say that people wouldn't challenge our position. I mean at our management team there would be discussions. The discussions would more relate to what segments of the property market we should be, in a sense, more positive about, others that we should be more negative about. There was a consciousness about the totality of that exposure, and each time it went back to the debate. As I've said, it wasn't one dimensional about are we in safe place, what's the risk, what's the stress test telling us, what are ... where are our competitors, what do we have to do to try and remain relevant to our customers; what do we have to do to meet the expectations of the market place. So, we had each time the debate about the balance of those and wrongly, each time we came down to feel that we were in the right place.

Senator O'Keeffe.

Thank you Chair. Mr. Forde, how many years banking experience overall do you have?

Mr. Donal Forde

I joined AIB at 17, I left at 48, so 31.

Okay. On the night of the guarantee were you one of the people involved in assembling the liquidity back in the bank?

Mr. Donal Forde

No.

No. You had nothing to do with it at all?

Mr. Donal Forde

I was at an arm's distance from it. I wasn't-----

In document C3b Vol. 2, page 29, Mr. Sheehy, this was a contemporaneous note made of the meeting that Mr. Sheehy was involved with, in which he says "People we've been dealing with for decades, pulling back - 1 month we will be funding bank overnight. Bad if can't even get that, disaster - bankruptcy." So that was on the night of the guarantee, that was your chief executive. How ... what do you make of that observation that he made that was ... the contemporaneous note was made at the time?

Mr. Donal Forde

That seems accurate to me. Again, now let me ... I'm ... I have explained that my division wasn't so directly impacted, but I was party to the management meetings at which there was conversations about the two divisions that were more directly impacted, AIB capital markets and the UK, and certainly I could see that they were having difficulty increasingly in sourcing money from the market. The term for which they were sourcing it was shortening. So it's a judgment call as to whether it was going to last for a month or six weeks, but in broad terms I can understand that as being not an unreasonable picture.

See there isn't unreasonable?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, total insolvency, which equals bankruptcy, when it comes to that.

Mr. Donal Forde

I mean if the bank couldn't fund its obligations then essentially it was bankrupt.

To go back to the salary position and the whole incentive structure, that I know you explained in great detail, in relation to yourself did you then ... were you then eligible and did you get a bonus in each of the years in which you had that position of managing director?

Mr. Donal Forde

I didn't get it in the last few years, as you might imagine when things got more difficult, but I got it pretty consistently through the earlier years, and the incentive for me was of two forms. One was a cash bonus but the bank was progressively moving away from that and it was moving more towards the grant of share grants. And those share grants were dependent on ... and the reason it was moving there was that those share grants were dependent on two aspects of the bank's performance. They were dependent on how the earnings per share performed over a three-year period, and they depended on the performance of the share price relative to other banks. And there was another aspect which was that any grants that were given obligated me as a senior person to hold a very substantial share. So when I hear on occasions that the charge that, you know, that structure incentivised me or others to do the wrong thing or behave in a short-term way, I was a significant shareholder in the bank, so it would be illogical for me to behave in any way that wasn't in the bank's medium long-term interest. So I never felt any motivation to do anything other than the right thing in the medium to long term.

Did you ever invest in property yourself?

Mr. Donal Forde

Other than in investor dwelling?

Other than investor-----

Mr. Donal Forde

But no, not in a meaningful way.

Were you aware at any point during your employment... did the bank invest equity in any of the property transactions for which it had also provided debt finance?

Mr. Donal Forde

If it happened it was very... I immediately cannot recall. I am tempted to say never but there may be one or two odd cases, but they would be in that order, it would be very exceptional.

Was there anybody working in your division that was not eligible for some kind of bonus?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, to be fair. That did not mean everyone got one but they were all eligible.

They were all eligible. Okay. Did you or any of your colleagues ever partake of any hospitality with developers or with borrowers?

Mr. Donal Forde

No. For better or worse, as I have said, I kept my distance from all of the borrowing cases and the clients. I just felt that it was a safer place to be.

Did colleagues ever talk about being involved with hospitality with borrowers, going to football matches or whatever, there were lots of-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Well yes. The people in the property and construction sector, they were obliged to tell me if they were, and they would, frequently someone would say to me that X client has invited me to a football match, or X client has invited me here, and I would approve that. I would usually make sure that they are paying for it, or if it is excessive, that the bank is paying for it, that there was no suggestion of conflict, but you have to do that to a point. It is just a question of judgment that it doesn't go too far but I had no sense ever that it did. Certainly, by the standards, whether they were all true of what seemed to happen in some other institutions, I think we were a long distance behind.

Going back again to the guarantee, I think you said earlier in response to one of my colleagues that you were surprised, I think, when you were asked for your opinion, you said you were surprised. You said you had been led to believe from internal discussions that two banks might have been left out of the guarantee. So just maybe talk us through what kind of internal discussions, who was involved, and at what point those discussions began to take place about that kind of dilemma.

Mr. Donal Forde

I am operating from memory here, but in that time which was obviously pretty stressful, the management team was meeting, I recall meeting at weekends. I recall meeting very frequently. The conversations would be around liquidity predominantly, what was happening, I suppose a review of some of the developments that were taking place daily in the broader global market and potential implications. So, in all of that, I guess the view within AIB that two institutions domestically were particularly compromised was a dominant theme.

Compromised to what end?

Mr. Donal Forde

Compromised in the sense that the market had taken a very poor view of their sustainability and they were not attracting moneys that were needed for them to be able to ... so that particularly. Now, sometimes the view went beyond that and a question as to their substance overall in terms of the quality of their assets, but generally it was about their access, generally it was about the availability of money for those two institutions.

So was the conversation that these two banks were going to be the ones to pull it all down or did-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. That was very much the theme, that these two would compromise the system.

Okay. But what about AIB and where it stood? We have already referred to Eugene Sheehy's observations. So what were you thinking?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well. There were two things. This was my picture of it. There were two things happening. There were specific concerns about two institutions. They were giving rise to a particular focus on the Irish market, but generally, banks even beyond Ireland were having difficulty with funding and liquidity. The conversations were essentially reviewing both of those dimensions, the domestic concerns revolving around those two, and the broader global picture which was deteriorating rapidly. That certainly was what was in mind as the situation then became more acute, when engagement was going on with the Department of Finance and the regulator. The briefings at those sessions would be from the head of capital markets, from the Head of the UK division, an assessment of those by the chief risk officer, the head of finance, the chief executive, so that conversation was going on. The view that a potential remedy for it was to take out the two problematic institutions, and even then, when they were taken out, perhaps to guarantee in some limited way the liabilities of the other.

At that point, what were AIB saying about themselves? Were you guys talking about your own capacity to be insolvent?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. We were concerned. No more than is indicated in your piece, we were concerned that if this continued and if something wasn't done to remedy the stress that was building, that it certainly was going to have very direct and fatal implications for all banks, AIB included.

Just tell us what kind of time period are we in here, August, September, mid September? Can you try and just-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I think we were in the period August and September but I am certainly ... the intensity with which I have now kind of described that process, is in the week, ten days, two weeks, building up to the guarantee.

So there was a very clear understanding at senior level in AIB that things were getting very serious-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

-----for everybody including yourselves.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

And that it could be fatal.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. That's fair enough to say.

Okay. Given ... I know that you weren't directly involved with the bank guarantee, but do you ... obviously that message was taken then. That must've been a key message going-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I left the management meetings with the understanding that that was the message that was going. I wasn't there but that's certainly ... was the view of the bank.

Obviously for yourself, you have expressed your own regret and your own concern about what happened in your time. Do you think that you might have resigned given what happened? I mean, I know you left, but I don't think you used the word "resign", even though you acknowledged that your division took the bank down.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I suppose, I resigned eventually. I agreed to leave early ... By leaving early ... So, we're playing with words a little bit I suppose.

I wasn't meaning to, I just-----

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I didn't resign my position in February '09. No, at that point I was asked to move to another ... I think it became clear to me through the course of that subsequent, whatever it is, seven or eight months, that there was a lot of pressure from outside for change in personnel that someone like me who had been central to what had happened was very compromised, so I'd come to my own conclusion that, you know, banking ... time for me to move on.

And obviously you left with your pension and all of that intact.

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I did not because I would be unique ... because I left in my 40s. So by reason of my age, I'm a long way away from having built up my pension in the ways others had, so that was very significantly reduced, so ... So it wasn't without consequence but I'm not going there because it's nothing compared with the hardship others had to endure. But I don't want you to think it wasn't without consequences.

Deputy Doherty?

Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh agus fáilte roimh an tUasal Forde ag an fiosrúcháin. Mr. Forde, your opening statement says that "I was responsible for all aspects of the division's activity in accordance with the group policies". So, would I be right in assuming that in relation to the division in terms of the loans that were ... the policies that allowed loan ... large loans to be paid out to developers, who we know today, can't pay them back, that the buck stopped with you?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I don't see it that way.

Okay. Who did the buck stop with? Maybe it's the best way ...

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I think there was a collective responsibility. So if I can go back for a moment. We had a risk function-----

I understand that. I just want to ask you this question, it says "I was responsible for all aspects of the division", so will you-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I don't ... I think I would go a little further than that.

You do. You explained the risk policy and that's on the record.

Mr. Donal Forde

So my formal objectives would have been to manage the loan portfolio within the guidelines that were laid down by the group. That was my formal objective.

Okay. Because-----

Mr. Donal Forde

But I'm not trying to shy from this-----

No, no, that's okay. I'm just trying to clarify it because you give evidence in terms of the risk policy committee and so on ... that you had no part in that which is very clear. But you did have responsibility in relation to overseeing the policies-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I did.

-----that were in place.

Mr. Donal Forde

If I can Deputy, I just would like to make this clear because I don't want ... hopefully I've been up front about this. I make a distinction between my obligation as the managing director, which was to manage the business of the division within the group policies. So that's one thing. My failing, more so, is that I was part of the group management committee and that was the group that was responsible to review all policies and in that respect, I certainly didn't raise a doubting voice and I fell down there.

Mr. Donal Forde

My failing personally is more at that level than at the other-----

And in relation to the loan to value policy that AIB had in place around the period of 2007 and 2008, do you agree with the statements from Mr. Frank Daly and Mr. Brendan McDonagh yesterday, that in the ... in most cases ... in many cases, that it was actually 100%?

Mr. Donal Forde

No I don't. I don't understand that and because, as I've said in my statement, when these loans were originated, our guidelines were that security should be at ... sorry, the loan value should be at 70% of the security value-----

Mr. Donal Forde

At the point of origination. It may have well have been that when they transferred ...

The point that he makes is that, rarely if ever was it in the form of cash when they talk about the developers putting equity in place, and that's from Frank Daly's yesterday's testament.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, sorry, cash would be a small proportion of it. I think that is fair to say.

Can I go to AIB B2, Vol. 1, page 35? And this is a request for approval of exception to the group large exposure policy limits. In relation to those policies - it'll come up on screen in a second, but just before I deal with the document - in relation to the policy documents, how extensive would they be? How many pages would they go in? How ... what kind of document are we looking at? You talked about ... there was a robust discussion at many occasions in relation to them. How detailed would-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Okay. You're ... I think you've made particular reference here to the large exposure policy?

Yes, I'm saying in relation to the document that would go to the board, how extensive would the documentation be?

Mr. Donal Forde

The large exposure ... from memory ... but I ... three to five page document.

Mr. Donal Forde

It would be of that order.

Okay. Okay. So what we're seeing here ... we have a three-page document here with a note at the bottom of it which says, "only pages 1 to 3 were" ... "only 3" ... "only pages 1 to 3 were circulated to the board".

Mr. Donal Forde

If I'm right, I think is that not a reference to an individual particular case, is it?

This is a request for approval of exception to the large group ... large exposure-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

-----policy limits.

Mr. Donal Forde

Okay. What that would be, is somebody coming to the board and saying, "We've lent X to a particular borrower. We now are proposing an increase in that." So it's a particular case, as distinct from ... I've answered your first question in the context of general policy documents.

No, no. And in relation to the request?

Mr. Donal Forde

A case mark-up, as they were called, could be 20 pages long.

And the board only got the three pages in this case?

Mr. Donal Forde

In this case got a summary, yes.

And would that be the normal situation?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think so. I ... I-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I'm-----

Okay. Okay, in relation to this case. Let's just walk through this case in particular-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Just ... Deputy, may I answer? The reason I'm hesitant about that is I would be very conscious of the documentation that went about in my own division-----

Mr. Donal Forde

-----and that passed up to the board, I'm less sure-----

Mr. Donal Forde

But certainly the full case documentation would be there for them if they requested it.

Okay. In relation to this individual, which is one of your larger exposures ... we can see from Project Atlas in page 19 the different types of exposures you have, so this individual is definitely in the top five. In September '07, the board had approved that underwrite ... written ... €789 million. A number of weeks later, on the 5 December '07, a request came for €202 million additional to this individual. Now, the document ... if we look at page 36 of the document ... the document goes on to outline the individuals ... the bank's exposures already. They talk about a €202 million exposure. That is the request that was before the board. They talk about €228 million, which was significant pre-lets. They talk about €190 million, which was, interestingly - and there's details of this in the first page - which was €160 million to buy shares in ICG, which the board ... which was suggested represented long-term strategic investment. And I'd maybe ask you to comment ... how did that investment turn out or are you aware of how that investment turned out?

Mr. Donal Forde

Not in specific terms, no.

Mr. Donal Forde

I mean, in the sense of I don't know it, but-----

Would I be right in saying that this was at the peak of the ICG shares in November 2007 or around that period and they started to decline at that stage?

Mr. Donal Forde

I'm not now familiar enough with the share price-----

Okay. And €30 million was for planning ... or was for a development where planning permission refused for 737 apartments and 270,000 sq. ft. commercial space rejected by An Bord Pleanála on the basis of infrastructure and so on. Then there is €138 million to be clear in 12 months, designated site, substantially complete, €90 million for sites - and we don't know where they are - €59 million for five distinct sites, with interest being funded, €84 million for something that's 73% self-financing and takes this person's total exposure to AIB of €991 million. But of the request that was before the board that day, it was for a syndicate proposal that was going to be co-funded with NIB and another bank, which I just don't see in front of me here. There was two other banks in ... and the total request was €602 million of which ... €605 million, sorry, of which AIB were asked to put up €201 million. On this documentation, I can't see anywhere where the developer was putting in his own cash.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I haven't ... I won't recall this in the detail that you'd wish me to but from the documentation that you've presented there, the proposal talks about a gearing level, I think of 50%, doesn't it?

Mr. Donal Forde

So, what form the equity ... the 50% equity from the developer took, isn't clear from this. But-----

But the point that Brendan McDonagh and Frank Daly were mentioning is the point about the gearing is that most of this person's wealth and you mentioned at the start, it's mentioned at the start his net wealth worth is €3.2 billion. Is it not the case that most of this is a result of lending, by AIB, to the individual and the equity that responded from the first loan went to pay the second loan, the third loan, the fourth loan and so on and we have a domino effect, when one starts to fall, the house of cards comes in on top of the bank and the developer but the developer, as was said yesterday, has no skin in the game.

Mr. Donal Forde

No I don't think that's entirely true. I mean, what earlier on I was describing what would typically be happening with a large-scale developer like this, there would be a whole series of different elements of business going on as is indicated by the different facilities here. Each of those would have a slightly different profile and some of them will represent, in some cases land will be purchased five, six years previously on which there is a very substantial equity today. In some cases, there's housing stock that's under construction for two or three years that's now ready for completion. So, or there may be an office development that's being developed that is now ready for sale, so they are not cash but they're near cash if I can describe some of them in that-----

Many of these cases didn't work out the way that you expected.

Mr. Donal Forde

I do accept that completely. So I am partly agreeing with you in saying that the proportion of cash that would be represented in the developer's equity would be small-----

One final question and it's a short one. It's in relation to and again we have a document here, the same booklet AIB B2, Vol.1, page 25. It's another advice to the board re approval of exception of group large exposure policy and this is for €11 million to increase the individual's exposure to the bank to €322 million. This is, I believe, to buy 1.75 acres in some place where he has already bought 6.5 acres at the cost of €70 million. The question I ask is the CEO or the group chief executive approved this on 22 December, just a couple of days before Christmas, because of the timescale that was required and it went to the board then for approval. Now how does that work if the chief executive approves €11 million to increase the exposure of AIB to €322 million in December. What power does the board have at that point and is that a common factor that the CEO ... did the CEO have that power, is that the power that the group chief executive had at the time?

Mr. Donal Forde

He had, from memory, remember I described about the divisional credit committee operating up to €40 million, we then had to refer the cases to the group. I think their discretion was up to €75 million or €80 million. I think then the chief executive had a discretion over that, before it went to the board, from memory. But that was rarely practised, in fairness and I think this would arise because there was obviously some particular deadline that had to be reached. That was rare. It would be unusual that the chief executive would step in and I think it's because of the particular point in time here, Christmas, but that would be an irregular thing. That would not happen and the board would then be advised of any decisions he had made and would be asked to endorse it.

Mr. Donal Forde

I think I haven't answered your earlier question very well and if I may just come back to it for a minute. I think there is something in what you have said and in what the NAMA representatives may have said yesterday. The difficulty if you are funding a client that is involved in a number of different property projects is that it is difficult for cash to be realised. There are always ... property of any description when it's in the development, is cash consuming and as a lender you are always faced with that challenge and it is true that in many cases the equity as we saw it, that a developer would be bringing to the occasion would be completed houses or nearly-completed houses or it might be property or land, excuse me, some of which would have been bought five or six years earlier that now ostensibly was worth very much more.

So yes, we did regard that as equity, and you're right, when push came to shove, and things ... there's was such a collapse of economic activity, all of these came unstuck.

But that meant, as was said yesterday, that the only person who would be caught out, in a worse case scenario, is the bank.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, I don't think that's entirely true. I suppose if you have a developer who has essentially absorbed the cost of building an estate of houses that are ready for sale, he has a lot of skin in the game at that point, equally.

But if he hasn't put any money up-front himself, hypothetically speaking then, there's very little skin ... there might be a bit of sweat on the building site but he hasn't put any cash on the table.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well I wouldn't say he hasn't put any money up-front. I would say he has been given credit, I would say, for the value of that. But he would have put his own cash in, in some measure.

We can talk through what Mr. Daly actually said yesterday because I wanted to wrap this up in ... because I had it in my notes. What NAMA, to my knowledge, and I can stand corrected in this, is the biggest national asset management agency in the world, or is a company that holds the biggest portfolio, so Mr. Daly comes with a certain authority, given the job that he has as the biggest of this type on the planet, to my knowledge. So Mr. Daly's testimony yesterday, and I'll get it up on the screen there, it is page 2 and 3 of his opening statement. He says:

While internal bank lending documentation may indicate that loan-to-value ratios were, typically, less than 100% when the loan was drawn, the reality, in many cases, was that a developer's equity contribution was in the form of a rolling-up of unrealised, paper profit from other developments. This was presented as an equity position.

So it would have been presented to your bank and other banks as an equity position.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, yes.

He continues:

Rarely, if ever, was it in the form of cash", "Rarely, if ever, was it in the form of cash. On the face of it therefore, developers had some skin in the game, but in reality that amounted to nothing more than unrealised equity positions levered by the developer to secure funding for new transactions.

He then goes on to say, and what this means in summary:

In effect, therefore, the banks were providing all of the real cash funding for both acquisitions and development. It is safe to say that quite often the borrower's paper equity position never paid for an acre of land or concrete or scaffolding or a worker's wage at the end of the week. The safety zone of borrower equity usually existed only on paper. The result is that the borrower was typically not the first to lose. In the event of a crash, the banks stood to take 100% of the losses and that's what happened.

Is that a fair reflection of the type of banking practice that you managed for AIB in your senior role?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think if I go back to an individual case and, so, you had a scenario typically, as I say, where a developer came with a piece of land, essentially, that had been purchased at X and was now worth 2X, okay? The bank regarded some proportion of the inherent value in that as equity, and had a position of security over it. So from a security viewpoint it's true to say that we would have relied on many occasions on non-cash assets. That is true. But in giving the loan, the proposition would be much more about what assets, essentially, were going to be created with that loan, and what they were going to sell for, and the bank would have, essentially, part of the loan agreement would be, that the proceeds of the sale, for example, of each residential development would come to the bank. So it's true to say that when things happened in the way they did, which is that office developments stopped selling, houses stopped selling, then the source of repayment for the banks, cash, that also stopped. Then the difficulty arose because the security that we held, which in many cases was equity, also began to devalue very quickly. So I think it's true to say that in the way things ultimately developed, we were left frequently where it wasn't cash that we had recourse to, but they were assets that were of much less value. But in the normal run, essentially if the assets that were produced off the back of that loan were sold, the bank would have collected the cash on those, all the time.

I wouldn't purport myself to have the same level of experience and knowledge that Mr. Daly would have, and in that ... I grew up in a council estate, my parents bought their home through a tenant purchase scheme, so I don't come with any big property background, but what I hear him saying here, very simply, is, there is an issue of acceleration and deceleration in the property market, and there's an issue of inflation and deflation in the property market.

And what was happening is that inflation was running so quick in the property market and development was at a very accelerated level, so it wasn't the case that a housing development was completed and now sold. It's that there was a notional value on property that was interpreted right all the way through the process. So, a developer could develop something in a part of Cork or a part of Dublin and, even though it's now not completed - and we've seen this with housing developments as well as they were going through phases - new values were given to them. So, even before the development is completed, a valuation would be placed upon it even though it's now not even out in the market - there's no rents coming in or anything else - and that equity - notional equity, albeit - was now being used as leverage against another loan.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yeah. I think that is fair. The only comment I'd make on that is that it wouldn't be the full value, that it would be a discounted value of it. So, in the instance that you describe where a development was near completion, a value would attach to that, but not the full value. It would be discounted, but, yes, that would be ... have been considered as equity.

I'm going to move to the wrap-up. Senator MacSharry, five minutes, and then Deputy-----

Thanks very much. Can I just go back to what you were discussing there with Deputy Doherty? You said that the buck ... in terms of where the buck stopped, that there was collective responsibility or there was a kind of ... the buck stopped collectively as opposed to with yourself. Would that be a fair assessment of what you were saying?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

Okay. So, as a result of the collective responsibility model that you described to Deputy Doherty, I mean, was there a level of trust that each of the people that reported to you within the division were all doing their job correctly, so you didn't have to check? It was a collective thing, so that ... the credit committee did their job well in terms of securities, so you didn't have to check anything and-----

Mr. Donal Forde

There was-----

-----therefore, it was taken as read.

Mr. Donal Forde

I ... trust and validate would've been the model, and that's why there was a group risk function and that's why there was an internal audit function. So, I very frequently received copies of reviews, reports, that they did. Everything was scrutinised and reported on to me and to those ... to the CEO and to the risk function. So-----

And given what happened, and what the Chairman was just outlining to you there, and given the nature of the equity being paper, for want of a better expression, do you feel that that was insufficiently robust or do you feel it was robust enough?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, it wasn't. I fully acknowledge ... I mean, as I've said, where ... in a way, the model worked so long as developers were able to sell their assets and the produce of the work that they were doing. We didn't require them to sell 100%, but we required them to be able to generate a measure of cashflow from those assets. The wheels came off when that was not possible because all economic activity got suspended some time in 2009, and the wheels came off at that point. I think it goes too far to suggest that we were allowing people just to build paper on paper, but I think we were doing that in some measure, yes.

Was there ever an instance that you're aware of in the bank that a lending executive received property by way of a gift from a developer?

Mr. Donal Forde

No. No.

Mr. Donal Forde

That would've been completely unacceptable.

I can imagine, but there was never-----

Mr. Donal Forde

No.

-----any instance anyway.

Mr. Donal Forde

No.

At the board meeting of 24 July 2008, there was a discussion about the Republic of Ireland division's practice of not seeking professional property valuations. Can you expand on this? It's on-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I think Deputy-----

Mr. Donal Forde

I think Senator Barrett-----

He made reference to that exact-----

Mr. Donal Forde

-----pursued me on that earlier, yeah.

Okay. That's fine. That's fine.

Mr. Donal Forde

And I think ... I may be wrong, but I think that's a reference to the practice of not always getting valuations for the smaller assets as distinct from the other issue, which we talked earlier on, which is the board decreed that all assets of value of greater than €5 million had to be properly valued. I think that was being done. I think there was a concern that we should be doing it, perhaps, for the smaller cases also.

Mr. Donal Forde

For all cases.

So that everything should be valued.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yeah. I think that's the concern that they were raising, that we should have moved to do that.

Mr. Donal Forde

That wasn't the policy.

Did that happen then?

Mr. Donal Forde

That wasn't the policy. No, I don't believe we moved to doing that. The problem about doing that is that's a fairly costly exercise in its own right. So, that's why the earlier decree was to do it for assets of a certain value and over.

Which was €5 million.

Mr. Donal Forde

Which was €5 million. The view at the time was that it was uneconomic to do that below. Here you had a view being raised that perhaps the outside world was going to expect that it was being done in all cases and we should reconsider, but this-----

And who was it uneconomic for? Did the-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Cost-----

-----did the borrower not pay?

Mr. Donal Forde

Not always, not always. If you were in a competitive position, you know, and you had to have regard for that.

Mr. Donal Forde

If AIB was insisting that there was going to have to be a formal evaluation and somebody else wasn't insisting-----

Okay, so really it was a competitiveness thing; that if somebody, Customer A or Developer A was going to borrow €50 million-----

Mr. Donal Forde

No, we're talking about smaller cases here now, so-----

Mr. Donal Forde

-----the point being that-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Perhaps, yes.

That we were going to say, "Well, look, we don't want to lose that €4,990,000, so I'll tell you what, don't worry about the valuation, our underwriter will make the call, end of story." Was that the practice?

Mr. Donal Forde

In some ... sorry, this didn't say that in all cases evaluations were not being sought ... but in some cases, where there would be a confidence about the value of the asset, that decision might be made, yes.

And just in terms of your underwriting teams, or the credit committees, would they have valuing qualifications, other than their experience?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, we talked about it earlier. Their valuing qualifications would be 25 years looking at loan proposals.

Okay, so would it be street sense as opposed to the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers, or-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Street sense and long experience.

---chartered surveyors, or any of those?

Mr. Donal Forde

Long experience, yes.

Okay. And that's better or worse, do you think?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, well, if you'll forgive me, we kind of went there before. I-----

I just ... I wasn't clear, so I'm asking it again.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes. It's not one or the other. Ideally a loan proposal would have both: it would have a formal valuation but I think I made the point in my submission-----

If competitiveness got in the way, the practice became, "We'll leave the valuation out"; would that be-----

Mr. Donal Forde

No, No, that's not what I said.

All right, okay.

Mr. Donal Forde

I said ideally a loan proposal would have a formal evaluation and would have all the street sense of an experienced credit executive looking at it.

Okay, thank you very much. Deputy Murphy?

Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Forde. Mr. Forde, you were still on the board in September 2008. On 26 September, the board decided to pay an increased interim dividend amounting to €270 million. Did you agree with that dividend payment?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes.

Did you benefit from it?

Mr. Donal Forde

I was a shareholder, so yes, I would have benefited from it, I guess, yes.

And did you reinvest in AIB shares?

Mr. Donal Forde

At that point? Yes, well the dividend automatically got reinvested, I think, as part of a profit share, yes. Sorry, we would have ... I'm ... the reason I'm hesitant is I would have had an established, big established shareholding and I would have got a dividend on that, some of which would have been invested automatically; I'm not sure if all of it was. I can't say that.

And do you remember people objecting to the issuance of that dividend?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, there was quite a bit of discussion at the board about whether that was the right thing to do. I think the ... there was different views. There was a conflicting view, one view held being that it was important at that point to demonstrate a confidence that the management felt that we were in a reasonably secure position from a capital viewpoint. There was another view with the idea that essentially we needed to conserve capital. And the view that went out was the one that we needed to make a strong statement to the market and I was persuaded by that, yes.

That was optics. In terms of optics ... that you were making a statement to the world market that you were sound.

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, you could describe it in that way now, yes, yes.

Sorry, Deputy Murphy. Okay.

Thank you, Chair. I just want to ... just a couple of brief questions then. The accounting standard, IAS 39 ... did you understand the flaw in that standard when it was introduced?

Mr. Donal Forde

Did I ... I had ... sorry. I had a view that it wasn't an appropriate formula.

Did you express that view to anyone?

Mr. Donal Forde

Frequently enough. I think we had that discussion internally. That view was held by all the senior people in AIB and it would have been a point of discussion with our external auditors, but I understood that they had to operate the system that prevailed.

Were you aware that the banks in Spain were ignoring the application of that accounting standard?

Mr. Donal Forde

I was, yes.

And was there any discussion that you might follow the lead of the Spanish banks and ignore it yourself?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think that was because the regulator had prescribed it in Spain. I don't think the regulator had made any such prescription here in Ireland.

And did your bank or the auditors discuss bringing this to the regulator's attention?

Mr. Donal Forde

I didn't personally. I wouldn't be in ... that would be the finance function that would be involved with the auditors but certainly I was party to discussions, and many of them, amongst the management team where that view was the dominant, prevailing view, and certainly would have been shared with the auditors. I don't know how pressed, in a sense, they were by the finance function to take it further.

And was there any discussion then of doing your own internal bookkeeping that wasn't for official accounts that would, you know-----

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, you couldn't do that. You have to meet the standards by which you're-----

No, you'd meet these standards with your official accounts, of course, and with your auditors, but you yourself would take your own look, using a different accounting standard, to be safe?

Mr. Donal Forde

But you couldn't do that. I mean, you either could make a provision or you couldn't. What IAS 39 prohibited you from doing was making provisions.

No, but in terms of understanding what the potential provision might need to be under different standards?

Mr. Donal Forde

Oh yes, sorry, I had a strong view, as had the loan officers, that we would wish to have more provisions, but that was ... that was not possible.

But would you ever attempt to calculate what those, you know, wished for provisions might need to be?

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, yes, absolutely. Each time at year end we would have discussion about, in an ideal scenario, how much more we would wish to put aside. Absolutely so, yes.

Was documentation kept on that?

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I wouldn't have said so, no. In some sense it was a bit of a futile exercise, because the rules were the rules and we had to-----

Do you remember how significant the discrepancies were between the wished-for provisioning and the provisioning under the accounting standard?

Mr. Donal Forde

I think discrepancy suggests that there's-----

Yes, a discrepancy is ... a judgment-----

Sorry, the difference, the difference.

Mr. Donal Forde

Yes, I think that suggests wrong. What I'm trying to convey here is, when times are good, a banker's instinct is to put money aside. The rules were specifically designed to disallow you from putting money aside, so we always felt that, look, this isn't a clever formula. And, with respect to the specifics, we would have been obviously of a much stronger mind to have a greater quantum aside in late '07, in '08, than would have been the case in '04, '05 and '06.

But the feeling that you couldn't do that was because the regulator had not permitted you to go outside of that accounting standards?

Mr. Donal Forde

Well, the ... no, I-----

Sorry, you said that's why in Spain that's why they were able to do it.

Mr. Donal Forde

No, I can't say that. We were very clear that the reason we couldn't do it was that the accounting protocols didn't allow us. You are right in that there was an instance where, in Spain, that had been set aside, I think by the regulator, but no such action had been taken domestically.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you very much. I am now going to bring proceedings to an end, Mr. Forde. Is there anything further you would like to add by means of comment or suggestion or anything else?

Mr. Donal Forde

I mean, perhaps no more than just to repeat what I've said at the outset, Deputy. I made it ... I hope that I've made it clear that, you know, I am party to something that went very horribly wrong, and it's not a pleasant feeling, let me say, and I'm very conscious of the implications of that. But, you know, it is a misjudgment, and it's all of that, but no more than that. I mean, there was at no point, I can say, at any time in my period as MD had I any real concern that the bank was operating in a manner that could be described as reckless. That's poor judgment, but I never had such a concern; I never went to sleep with any anxiety that I was doing the wrong thing for the bank in the medium to long term and, you know, I acknowledge the error of that and I acknowledge the consequences of it, but it's that and it's no more than that, I think, expressed in those terms.

Thank you. So, with that said, I'd like to thank Mr. Forde for his participation today and for his engagement with the inquiry, and as I'm excusing you ... just before I call an adjournment to the meeting, just to remind members that we're adjourned until 3.30 p.m. next Tuesday. The public hearing on Wednesday morning will commence at 9.30 a.m. On Thursday, to facilitate events in the afternoon the public hearing will commence at 9 a.m., so we'll be moving it a little bit forward to accommodate the break that we need to accommodate for the afternoon. So, with that now said, I propose that the meeting is adjourned until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 28 April 2015. Is that agreed?

The joint committee adjourned at 6.08 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 29 April 2015.
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