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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 2007

Rural Development Strategy: Discussion with Irish Rural Link.

I welcome Mr. Seamus Boland, chief executive, Ms Breege Lenihan, PRO, and Mr. Dharragh Hunt, communications and research officer, from Irish Rural Link who are here to make a presentation on Ireland's rural development strategy for the period 2007 to 2013. Before asking Mr. Boland to commence his presentation, I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before it. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Unfortunately, I must leave to accompany a group from my local school to a meeting with the Minister for Foreign Affairs. The group in question is travelling to Zambia in May to spend three and half weeks working on a project. It had been intended to hold the committee's meeting this afternoon but there was no room available. As the Vice Chairman is not available, I nominate Deputy Ó Fearghaíl to act as Chair in my absence.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl took the Chair.

Perhaps Mr. Boland will introduce those accompanying him before commencing the presentation.

Mr. Seamus Boland

I ask Ms Lenihan to make our introductions.

Ms Breege Lenihan

I am from County Monaghan and I am a member of the board of Irish Rural Link. Members may already be familiar with Seamus Boland, our CEO. Also with us is Dharragh Hunt, our communications officer.

I thank members for giving us the opportunity to come before the committee to present our views on Ireland's rural development strategy for the period 2007 to 2013. The presentation is drawn from the strategy as published by the Departments of Agriculture and Food and Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and the independent report that accompanied it. We consulted our members and our assessment is based on this consultation. In compiling our submission, we have prepared an analysis that has been circulated to members.

Mr. Boland

I thank members for the invitation to make this presentation. We were involved in the consultation process organised by the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. We welcome the strategy in so far as it will deliver something of the order of €7 billion into the rural economy. We represent Irish Rural Link and community groups all over the country. An allocation of €125 million from a rural development budget of €7 billion is too low. We outlined a breakdown of the overall funding in our submission, the majority of which is invested in agriculture. We welcome that but, given the changes facing the industry and rural communities generally, the opportunity has been missed to create greater diversification in rural areas.

The submission is entitled Rural Development, and it is based on figures published by the Department of Agriculture and Food on farm supports. It is an agricultural rather than a rural development plan. We acknowledge the prioritisation of rural development in recent years through the White Paper on Rural Development and the establishment of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and we are particularly complimentary about the Minister who has pioneered the rural agenda with a passion. We are delighted and we have worked well with him on that. The case for supporting agriculture is well established and it is essential given the many CAP reforms initiated since the 1990s.

I refer to the independent evaluation report, which is good. It is not our analysis and it is an ex ante independent report. It makes a number of interesting points that should be highlighted. We drafted a new strategic plan for the organisation and, without any great surprise, we discovered that the challenges facing rural areas are the narrow economic base, the ongoing restructuring of agriculture, developing the potential of these areas as a source of energy and as leisure destinations, effective planning, regional inequalities, geographical peripherality and rural disadvantage in Border counties. Ms Lenihan comes from Monaghan and she is involved in the North-South rural voice, a Border project that involves Irish Rural Link and its counterpart in Northern Ireland.

In meeting those challenges, a rural development strategy, particularly one that highlights the words "vision" and "strategic", must look to the long term and address fundamental weaknesses in the rural economy. In our analysis, that is at least the beginning. However, it is unlikely to achieve sustainable rural development. Since we drafted the document, a review has been announced for 2008 and that will be a golden opportunity to address the issues we are raising. The strategy states 59% of the population live in the area covered by the plan. If these people are to benefit from the plan, they can only do so if a strong, vibrant rural economy is in place, which is complemented by full accessibility to basic social services, including health care, housing and education. Agriculture, while still the dominant industry in most rural areas, is in decline, as highlighted in the AgriVision 2015 and Foresight reports and others.

In the BMW region, employment in agriculture decreased by 17% between 1999 and 2005 according to the NDP unit's figures. At the same time, employment in the services industrial sector increased by up to 55%. The Audit of Innovation Report, published by the BMW regional assembly, provides evidence that higher income jobs demanded by an increasingly educated youth population are based in the greater Dublin area. The trend towards part-time farming continues to increase and such farming is becoming totally dependent on the sustainability of the current building boom. There is evidence that were it not for the current building boom, Ireland would be immersed in another wave of emigration.

The strategy clearly focuses on the application of measures geared towards resolving many of the problems faced by farmers throughout Europe. In Ireland these problems are well documented in a range of reports. Rural areas are still dominated by the usage of land and the preponderance of small holdings remains extremely high. Unfortunately, in the global economy that we inhabit, this means holdings that are no longer viable. The plan clearly adopts a policy to continue as before and to support by subsidy in one form or another the continuation of farming, even though it cannot survive without subsidisation to the tune of 90%, according to the Department of Agriculture and Food. Staying with a failed and unsustainable model in the long term without examining long-term solutions is a weakness of the plan. Such large scale assistance is required in the medium term. However, failure to examine alternatives must be seen as a significant weakness.

The other weaknesses are the increased rationalisation of farm holdings. This is supported by the strategy and will mean more people will become disconnected from farming but they will want the choice to remain within their own community. The benefits of a younger population remaining within its own community is significant for economic and social sustainability. A total of 40% of the population live in dispersed settlements and, therefore, this requires a much higher level of local service. The viability of such services depends on our ability to link a range of national strategies and we welcome strongly the recent social partnership agreement and the new national development plan because they do precisely that. The strategy could present Government with a golden opportunity to redesign the range of education and training initiatives based on the establishment of a comprehensive education and training programme, which would be available to people of all ages. While the support of small enterprises is likely to increase under the strategy, obstacles such as planning, poor basic infrastructure and lack of cohesion in the availability of health and social services are not addressed. We accept they are not addressed because of the narrow base but if rural sustainability issues are to be resolved, they have to be dealt with.

The support of farming is essential. However, the strategy could have made available resources to examine more sustainable uses of land and this is the crux. The agriculture industry benefits from 90% subsidisation and farmers and young people are expected to take up a career subsidised at that level. No other career demands such high subsidisation and that is a major worry regarding long-term sustainability. The strategy does not address the difficulties faced by isolated rural communities and communities in the Border region. The Border brings a number of added adverse dimensions into the lives of people who are often dependent of the vagaries of the economies in both jurisdictions. This statement was inserted by members from the Cavan-Monaghan region who feel strongly that the Border is a unique dimension in rural development. We forget the Border is a rural area, which needs attention, and the report does not address it.

We outlined the challenges and recommendations within the narrow remit laid down. When the Departments of Agriculture and Food and Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs sought a response, it had to be couched in narrow terms. The final two pages of the submission reflect this narrow remit, although we would have preferred a wider remit. Immediate changes are needed in the following areas: bioenergy, education and skills, and community supports.

Most members of Irish Rural Link, Muintir na Tíre and other groups worked hard at solving the problems of emigration when they began in the early 1990s. That was done through community development. We would argue that community development can still do that job, but it faces even greater challenges now. We have provided details on rural services and social inclusion and are willing to answer questions on those issues.

We ask committee members to look at the strategy now agreed by Brussels and to consider how it can be improved for the review in 2008. We will push our points again in that regard. If we really want a sustainable rural community to evolve in the long term, we must look at the current model. If agriculture is the main dominant industry and if it must be subsidised to the tune of 90%, there is no long-term future. That is the reason the package of €7 billion must look at other alternatives. The year 2008 may be our last chance.

Thank you very much. We all look forward to being here in 2008 to discuss these matters. I suggest we bank questions and then invite a response.

I have a few questions I would like to ask before I must rush off. Deputy Crawford will raise a number of other questions. I welcome Mr. Boland, whom I know, and Irish Rural Link to this committee. Irish Rural Link's proposal on the axes suggests a division of moneys in the ratio of 20%, 30%, 40% and 10% for the four axes. What is the current breakdown?

We will bank the questions before getting a response.

That limits my questions somewhat. I wonder where we are shifting from in this regard. This committee would take a different attitude to that of Irish Rural Link on the prognosis for agriculture and perhaps we can have some response on that. The committee is of the opinion that we need to focus more on improving competitiveness and product development as we do not compete on a level playing pitch with third country production coming into the European Union. What is the counter argument to that?

Another negative point I wish to raise relates to one of the recommendations regarding the establishment of a rural enterprise programme under the auspices of Enterprise Ireland, which also directs the work of the county enterprise boards. Experience has shown that the county enterprise boards are very effective. The difficulty is that once a company finishes at that scale, it is left in limbo until it starts in import substitution or export, as Enterprise Ireland only kicks in then. We should encourage more development at county enterprise board stage to bring companies up to a level where Enterprise Ireland can follow through with them.

I have spoken to my colleague, Deputy Deenihan, on this issue as he has been very involved in the area in County Kerry. What happens now is that once people leave the Leader or county enterprise structure, they hit a glass ceiling and supports are not available to them. It is at that stage that many companies get into trouble and end up falling by the wayside, especially small indigenous food companies. Should we take the route of bringing Enterprise Ireland in at that level or should we try to increase the role of the county enterprise boards? Irish Rural Link's proposal for a rural enterprise programme is a positive development and should be promoted.

Our Vice Chairman, Deputy Hoctor, cannot be here today because of the announcement on the loss of jobs taking place in Tipperary, which will have a devastating impact in her constituency. We are entering an era where we need to put a greater focus on indigenous manufacturing here. The largest element in that regard is our agriculture and food industry, which is the most stable area of our economy and has significant growth potential. In tandem with that growth we could develop the rural fabric of Ireland. We must ensure we get the plan right because this will be our last opportunity to get the structures in place. Much of what is happening now, whether in the Department of Agriculture and Food or Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, is based on 20th century policy. We need to move to the 21st century with regard to where we want to go in the future.

I welcome Mr. Boland and his colleagues and thank them for their presentation and the useful background information provided prior to this meeting. My colleague, Deputy Penrose, already met Irish Rural Link and we have had some discussion on the general theme and thrust of its concerns.

Deputy Penrose raised an issue with me that has been in the news recently, namely the decline of rural post offices, which are crucial to the social fabric of the rural environment. Perhaps their decline is seen as just one small factor, but I believe it is important. Perhaps we can have a comment in this regard. The knock-on effect of the decline in post offices, rural shops and rural petrol stations etc. is the decline of villages as a result of the closedown of a rural community's access to these services. I am interested in hearing comments on this. In a recent document I produced with Deputy Penrose and other colleagues we proposed there should be tax breaks and reliefs for these types of facilities and services to help them remain vibrant and viable.

It is clear that part-time farming will be more significant in the future. What can be done to develop this area? Mr. Boland mentioned that the building boom has helped sustain part-time farmers up till now. How does he suggest we can make progress on part-time farming? I believe we need a major input into research into the needs of part-time farmers. We all want to ensure that we retain our reputation for good quality land, a clean environment and good production and that we can maintain the reputation of our produce on the international market. However, if our farmers are predominantly part-time farmers — the trend is that way with 40% currently part-time farmers — we must provide initiatives to keep farmers on the land who will keep producing the quality foods we have bought into following recent developments with CAP reform. What are Irish Rural Link's views on this?

One other area through which farming could be made more productive, is organic farming. Irish Rural Link has identified the need to develop this area and pointed out that we still import a significant amount of organic produce. I would like to see us being more active on this issue rather than just talk about it. We also need more research and investment in the area. There is a market for organic produce, but we need a marketing initiative and the supports and promotion that go with that.

Recently I have become concerned about food poverty which is something we are often more concerned about in urban areas. However, data and information provided by Crosscare in a recent substantial publication make us aware that food poverty also exists in rural areas. We need to pay more attention to this issue and to look at the reasons for it. We operate from the basis that people in rural Ireland have access to land and production, but this is not necessarily true. The cost of food in rural Ireland is significant in terms of household budgets.

Do the witnesses believe agriculture and rural affairs should be two separate Departments? I have made some statements outlining my belief that agriculture is still the mainstay. The designation of community, rural and Gaeltacht affairs is artificial when much of what happens in rural areas is underpinned by what happens on the land and in farming operations. I would be interested to hear the witnesses' comments on the coalescing of those Departments.

I apologise that I will need to leave the meeting in approximately ten minutes to attend another meeting.

I welcome Mr. Boland and his team from Irish Rural Link and I congratulate them on their presentation. Farming numbers are in decline and we need to consider the reasons. Most of the senior citizens of farming today inherited their farms at a very young age from their parents and probably had no secondary education. In those cases generally one family member got the farm and the others emigrated because work was not available locally. While today we have a vastly different Ireland, I have a sentimental attachment to the land. I spent 50 years working on the land and I know what it is all about. Young people in rural areas have a completely different outlook. It starts with education which is a very good thing. However, they are no longer prepared to work like those of our era. They will not settle for subsistence farming. They will not work the long hours and they tell us that clearly.

Much is made of part-time farming. For many years most farmers' wives have been working on the land. We would have reached this crisis much sooner were it not for the women. The women on the land worked very hard. Given that we have 90% subsidisation at the moment, finding a solution is difficult. The Ministers for Agriculture and Food, and Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs have tried hard and €7 billion has been allocated for the future. However, it is very difficult to find a solution. The committed and dedicated farmer will remain and the farms will get bigger.

I am very deeply involved in community development. Great aids are available for people who take the initiative to form development companies and go through the process, which may involve some bureaucracy. While it takes some time to explore it and get it, considerable help is available. One of the great problems in rural areas relates to planning. In the past six months I have come across three small enterprises refused planning permission because they were based in rural areas. Despite owning the land, they were not permitted to proceed and were required to move into industrial estates, which in many cases cost them a fortune in rent — buying was out of the question. After many years renting they would own nothing anyway. This issue needs to be reconsidered. While there is a place for establishing enterprises in the centres in villages and towns, many farmers could establish small enterprises on their own lands. Planning requirements make it extremely difficult for them to do so.

While I would like to see a ready-made solution to the issue of farming, there is no room for sentiment in business and we must make a living from the land to stay there. I congratulate Irish Rural Link on what it is doing. I would like to help in any way I could. Perhaps my outlook is too practical. The views I have expressed are based on considerable experience although I am still learning. I wish the group well.

I, too, welcome the three delegates from Irish Rural Link. I loaned my pen to Deputy Wilkinson, but I did not think I would also give him my ideas because he has made the points I was about to make. The presentation made some very strong points. As a Deputy coming from a rural Border county and the same county from which the Minister for Agriculture and Food comes, we are all on the same wavelength on the problems for agriculture and rural areas generally. I concur with Deputy Wilkinson. Young people have so many other avenues for employment that they do not want to work the long hours in farming. Some are prepared to work on a part-time basis. That reflects the reality of society and the goals people are setting for themselves. Nobody here can change that. We have an uphill struggle in securing the future of farms, particularly the small ones. It is likely that we will progress down the route of factory farming, which will not be good for our society. I welcome the report of Irish Rural Link and I am sure the committee will pass it on to the Minister. We will see what we can do working constructively with the group.

I, too, welcome the representatives of Irish Rural Link. If I may, I wish to single out Ms Breege Lenihan from my county. She knows better than most the problems in Border areas. While we have received considerable funding from IFI, PEACE ll, etc. unfortunately this has been used as basic funding and not additional funding as we all would have liked. This has been admitted by the Taoiseach and others. Any EU funding should be additional rather than replace funding from Departments. It is very easy to simply lower the funding from central funds on a pro rata basis to such areas and be seen to give them additional funds. However, it is not really additional in areas that have suffered dramatically as a result of the Troubles and other difficulties such as lack of infrastructure.

The group has made recommendations on rural-proofing. I heard the same mentioned by Deputy Davern when he was Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture Food and Rural Development, and I am sure he was committed to it. However, it never materialised. We need more than nice words: we need real action. A sum of €7 billion is a considerable amount of money. Coming from a farming background in Cavan-Monaghan, I differ in some ways on the 90% subsidisation. If I consider the pig, poultry and mushroom industries, only the mushroom industry got some start-up grants. All of them are self-sustaining industries, in difficulty, but never in receipt of subsidies. Lamb producers are another group under pressure, and lamb production is not subject to any subsidies from Europe. In the main, subsidies are linked to crops, dairy and beef. The system has been changed in recent years from one of direct payment through export refunds and intervention to a single payment. The amount of funding is very small.

We must examine the situation in the United States, among other countries, where significant funding is directly paid to farmers through other means. To hear the American officials demand through the WTO that we should remove our subsidies, one would think they were not given any. First, farmers there are given every subsidy and, second, those of us on the committee who travelled to Chicago some years ago saw how they use every possible growth promoter and means to increase production yet their produce is being sold on markets in which we have to compete, even though farmers in the European Union have to meet strict production regulations. I am on my hobby horse. It is important that people remember this when they come out with blanket statements about farming being subsidised up to 90%. That is not factual.

It is correct to say there will be a major change. It has already started, but we have seen nothing yet. Dairy farms are being forced out of business for economic reasons. They cannot avail of the single payment without being involved in the dairy sector but there is no point in operating in this sector at a loss. Only for the so-called new structures introduced by the Minister on the sale of milk quota, we would have seen many more people getting out of the dairy sector this year. In my small dairy co-operative there is just one seller under the first tranche and there are five buyers but because they do not meet the computer requirements, the individual in question cannot sell and the buyers cannot buy. Only 11% of milk was transferred in Lakeland. We will see dramatic changes in farming over the next few years.

I listened with interest to what Deputy Wilkinson had to say about planning. I am aware of a case at present where two young men set up an industry in a hay shed cum farm buildings on one of the farms with the intention of setting up an independent structure. Pre-planning had been organised on a number of sites and unanimous agreement was reached with the planner on one site. However, three months later, planning permission was turned down completely. It was claimed this was because of a new development plan structure.

Moffat Engineering in Monaghan was started in a cattle shed and has gained worldwide renown for its work. The company exports to 51 countries. Huenna Kitchens in north Monaghan is another successful farm enterprise. People are coming here and making decisions affecting the ability of people to start small industries in rural Ireland. As Deputy Wilkinson stated, the individuals concerned cannot afford to locate in an industrial estate in a town where the rents are so high the project would not be viable.

As politicians, we must act in conjunction with groups such as Irish Rural Link that are extremely important in terms of leadership within the community and in terms of providing follow-up and support. Funding is important but if we do not have the structures in place to allow the system to work in rural Ireland we will go back to the situation prevalent in the 1950s and 1960s where we had mass depopulation. Coming from the parish of Aghabog, I do not want to ever see that again. It is an unthinkable scenario.

Some planners have no idea of what is necessary to ensure the small industries that mean so much get support. As Ms Lenihan can verify, if it were not for indigenous industry in the Border counties, there would be little employment. We have had no external investment of any kind in the past 20 years. This may be partially because of the Border location or the lack of infrastructure. Thank God, we are now in the process of improving infrastructure in terms of roads and broadband. We do not have any railway. We will have major problems if these issues are not addressed.

One issue I cannot ignore is the health service. If we do not have an adequate health service in rural Ireland, no industry, either native or otherwise will set up there. It is vital that we have an accident and emergency service that will allow people to access it 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I am scared by the current situation. I received a letter from the HSE as a direct result of my open letter to the Taoiseach which went in turn to the Minister. She hands everything over to the HSE, which was adamant in making the case it would provide a safe system. This is an extremely important aspect of rural development. A service located up to 90 miles away is of no use to us.

I was also interested in the comments on the building boom. This is a serious matter. The boom is coming to an end in some areas and this will have significant implications. That is all the more reason for us to look towards research, development and marketing. We must ensure we make the best possible use of the educated young workforce to keep them in rural areas, otherwise, the €7 billion will not have any significance. Major investment is required for research, development and marketing.

I was involved in the meat and livestock board for many years. At the time, in the early 1980s, we depended on export refunds and the intervention systems. We refused to commit ourselves to marketing within Europe. We have done more of that recently but if small industry is to survive, it requires help.

Some initiative must be taken by the Departments. In that context, I support Deputy Upton. I am interested in hearing a comment from the group about its thinking on rural development and agriculture. The two issues are closely linked. While it might be nice to sit down and have a chat with the Minister, the most important issue is that funding would be provided. I commend the work that has been done in the past. If it were not for the community groups and all they have done to totally revolutionise the landscape of areas in counties Cavan and Monaghan, we would be much worse off.

I welcome the delegation from Irish Rural Link and compliment it on its presentation. A number of points have been made. I do not wish to delay the meeting for too long. Does the organisation make presentations on rural development? Many aspects of local rural development are governed by local authority county development plans. Does Irish Rural Link make a pitch to local authorities when they are reviewing their county development plans? Planning is largely governed by the county development plans.

Deputy Upton made a point on the disappearance of rural post offices, filling stations and shops. I see this occurring also but one should realise the scene has changed regarding rural post offices in that people make payments directly. In the past people used post offices to make telephone calls as there were no telephones elsewhere. I do not believe rural post offices will survive unless they are attached to other premises, which premises will have to be fairly busy to sustain them.

Many filling stations and shops, given their prime locations, are being purchased by developers who want to build apartments and houses. There is very little we can do about this. If the owner of a shop or filling station wants to make money by selling his site to a developer, we certainly cannot get involved.

Will the delegates comment on part-time farming and the more sustainable use of land? Land is making such prices that no man will be able to farm it and make an income therefrom. Why is this and who are the people who can afford to pay such sums for land? What is the position on developers giving fair money for sites in rural areas on which they want to build houses?

When farmers who want to avail of the fairly good farm modernisation grant apply for planning permission to install slatted sheds, for example, they find they will not be allowed to spread slurry within 100 metres of existing houses on their land. They may have sold the sites for these houses but now face a serious problem in regard to carrying out normal farming practices.

Large sums of CLÁR top-up funding are available in rural areas. Some local authorities fail to make a timely bid to draw it down while others are pretty good at doing so. One must welcome forestry development on poorer land. This provides further income for farming communities.

Young farmers must have a second trade or profession to remain viable and compete with others, bearing in mind that farming is their number-one trade. It is a bit depressing to see so many farmers selling out good dairy herds in March, even though they may have spent a number of years in the dairy scene. Smaller farmers are leaving while larger farmers are expanding.

On the sale of stock, and particularly the funds required for purebred stock, farmers sometimes refuse €5,000 to €7,000 for an animal. One wonders why this type of funding is required. Farming is now deemed to be a professional practice.

There has been much comment recently on rural transport. Will Mr. Boland comment on what can be done to expand it? Many of those who begrudge the expansion of rural transport refer to the small numbers on buses that carry rural dwellers, perhaps into town to draw their pensions. It takes time for numbers to increase.

Consider the role of express buses, particularly those travelling through the midlands. The operators could often incorporate a few other towns and villages into their routes without having to travel too many extra miles. This would afford people the opportunity to use the buses, particularly elderly passengers who wish to commute to town using their travel passes. Many of the express buses travel at high speed and only cater for the main towns. How can we ensure that those in rural areas can avail of such transport?

I compliment Irish Rural Link on its work. Mr. Boland has been involved with rural development for many years. I served with him perhaps 25 years ago on agriculture committees. He was a very active member of Macra na Feirme and tried to do his bit to improve the lot of people in rural areas, on which I compliment him.

I thank the delegates for their presentation. Many points have been made and I fully agree with some of them. One of the main problems in rural areas concerns those involved in small manufacturing units and farming-associated activities. It is usually farming people who are involved in these ventures and we try to support them and obtain planning permission for them. The seven, eight or nine jobs their ventures might sustain comprise the lifeblood of the areas in question.

I recently dealt with a case concerning a man who was employing 12 people and wanted to expand his business because he had not enough space. The planners were forcing him into an area in a town that was zoned for manufacturing. However, the cost of a site within that area was €1 million per acre and therefore he could not afford to relocate. Fortunately, the county manager saw sense and granted the man planning permission. He now employs 25 people in a rural area. Positive discrimination should therefore apply in the granting of planning permission to those employing staff in rural areas, particularly in farming-associated activities.

Mention was made of post offices in rural areas. I recently attended a meeting on the closure of a rural post office at which 86 people were in attendance. The main reason for the closure was because the employee in the office was retiring, and there seemed to be nobody to take it on. When asked how many people used the office, the meeting was informed eight. That means there were 79 people complaining about a post office closure who did not even use the facility.

Many areas have benefitted from CLÁR funding, particularly with class 3 road local improvement schemes. Anyone living on a class 3 or private road is entitled to the same service treatment as a person living on, say, the N4. When I joined Sligo County Council in 1991, those applying for a local improvement scheme would have to do so when making their confirmation because they would probably get it by the time they got married. That has changed and the waiting list has been reduced to 18 months to two years.

What does the delegation believe would be a positive step to support rural areas?

There is a common thread running though the comments and questions from all members. There is committee support for the agri-sector and it would never try to talk it down. Many members have a keen interest in the planning process. Will the delegation write to the committee after today's meeting with more detailed observations on the comments made?

Will the delegation give its definition of "rural"? The inordinate difficulties with the planning process were reflected in members' comments. There may be many positive comments about rural development in the Houses of the Oireachtas but on the ground one often finds the planning process hinders it. Whereas county councillors talk positively about rural development, many county development plans do not contain positive commitments to ensure it takes place. To what level is Irish Rural Link engaging with county councillors on rural development?

There has been much talk about part-time farming. The committee has engaged with other groups who are assisting farmers to diversify. Does Irish Rural Link have views on education and training that could be mainstreamed to assist the agri-sector and farmers seeking alternative employment?

Mr. Boland

Thank you, Chairman. I thank the committee members for their many questions and comments. We will be corresponding in more detail with the committee on some of the interesting questions raised. I will ask Mr. Hunt to clarify the axes question raised by Deputy Naughten.

Mr. Dharragh Hunt

The figures are on the first page of our presentation. In our recommendations, we used percentages. Approximate figures are rural development, 6%; REPS, 40%; disadvantage, 30%. Those are actual percentages rather than figures.

Mr. Boland

We will clarify them in a written submission.

If we go down the road of a competitive food industry, will it solve the problems in the agriculture sector? It is our analysis, using evidence on the ground and the AgriVision 2015 and Foresight reports, that a competitive food economy will not necessarily sustain smallholders. It is in the country's interests to have a competitive food industry but it is not necessarily in the interest of smallholders. A competitive food industry in the global economy means food produced at the lowest possible price. Ireland would have to compete with South America and the US.

On Senator Moylan's comments, the reality is regarding the job. At a conference we held recently, a woman from the west was very vociferous about her husband's quality of life. He was farming, trying to keep his piece in the building industry and raising a family. His wife made the point that holding down a second job is not conducive to the long-term prospects for her family.

I accept Senator Moylan's good advice that a farmer must have a second trade. In the long term, a young farmer will opt for the trade instead of wasting time on keeping the land going, unless it is a source of pride. This is the dilemma that the younger generation of farmers is experiencing. Wives and mothers of young farmers feel strongly about the second job. The problem with that is farming is being carried out at the lowest level. We believe this is the challenge of this programme which can be met. We do not see it as a conflict with agriculture. Ireland is and will remain an agricultural country. There are thousands of young people who are not taking the option of staying in farming. From Teagasc figures, thousands of smallholders will leave the land. This is obvious too from the figures for farm sales.

Deputy Naughten raised the question of enterprise. We held a conference in Carrick-on-Shannon two years ago. Many Leitrim-based businessmen attending it pointed out that between them they had created 350 jobs. Not one penny from State supports or subsidies were given to their enterprises. We want a debate on the role of the county enterprise boards and Enterprise Ireland. It is clear that neither is reaching small scale rural businesses, particularly service related businesses. The county enterprise boards and Enterprise Ireland are not doing enough to keep people employed in small scale businesses in rural areas.

The issues on planning are constantly brought to our attention and must be addressed. The term "rural" refers to anywhere outside the main cities. In other words, it is what is designated as a city, although Athlone could be close to that definition as well. Some 40% of the country's population is regarded as living in dispersed settlement patterns. Some areas are more rural than others. However, if one takes Athenry, Tullamore or Cavan, for example, these are rural towns. They might have an urban population as such, but they are rural towns. They depend on what is happening in the outer rural community, so for us, the definition as regards outside the city is relevant. We have put a proposal to Government for a rural development planning commission to be established. The majority of planners are urban-trained. They think urban and use their planning expertise from that perspective. We have come across planners in England and other parts of Britain that have a different approach to planning. There are even models in Sweden, which we will talk about at a conference later this year.

There are other ways of doing rural planning, but we are not availing of them. We have asked the Government to look at the establishment of a rural planning commission to find the best way forward in planning in a rural perspective. A number of people came to us during the ploughing championships who had tried to set up businesses on their farms. This worked well by allowing them to do the farming and manage the business. Some were asked, however, by the county council to move the business into the industrial park in the town, and stay farming, but that completely defeats the purpose of giving people jobs within the rural area. For those members of the committee who want to take it up, that proposal is very much alive. We will continue to put it forward until the Government or someone else decides to take it up.

We believe this plan probably will not achieve the diversification necessary to keep smallholders in rural areas. We do not see it happening. I know that Deputy Crawford has reservations as regards the 90%, but we are using the Department of Agriculture and Food figures for a start, as well as family farm income statistics as compiled by Teagasc. That is where we are getting the data. They are not our figures. However, I accept the argument about mushroom production and obviously there are parts of the family farm sector that are not subsidised. Alternative farm activity, such as mushroom cultivation, does not get the same type of support as mainstream farming. The Deputy is correct in saying they are not subsidised.

I do not know whether I am covering half the issues. On Senator Moylan's point as regards whether we make submissions, as an organisation our resources are restricted so we do not make submissions to any great extent. Our member groups, however, put forward submissions in their own names within different counties and we assist them in that. We hope to address this area. It is an issue within our strategic plan, which was launched just recently by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív. We hope to do some of that in the future. At the moment, however, because of restricted resources we simply cannot.

Deputy Upton talked about rural and Gaeltacht affairs and agriculture. The Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has a fair track record. It has, for instance, been instrumental in ensuring that the 34 special initiatives on transport were mainstreamed, despite this being the bailiwick of the Department of Transport. We compliment the Department for this and for its work under CLÁR etc. We would argue that putting it back under the Department of Agriculture and Food might not be for the best, but ultimately that is a decision for Government. At the moment, however, we compliment the work of that Department under the present Minister. The Minister has been wrongly criticised for his proposed solutions to the problems of evening transport etc. At least he is putting forward solutions, as we are. The availability of transport is one of the most acute issues facing rural populations. We need to solve the evening transport problem, not as regards pubs or the drink link, as someone called it. This area has to be developed and the Minister is running some pilot projects in this regard and should be supported. We will not learn unless we try.

Senator Scanlon is right in his comments about post offices. We had a piece in The Irish Times of last Friday, where Irish Rural Link argued for the future of post offices, as we have done all along, but we as a community must use them. We cannot complain about losing a post office or a business if they are not used. The key question, however, as regards whether the future of a post office is sustainable because of its non-profitability hinges on whether it is delivering a public service. Therefore, how is a public service to be defined? If we agree that the individual post office is delivering a public service, then we have got to look at it. An EU Commissioner, when talking about supporting rural communities, asked at a recent conference: who supports the hairdresser in rural Ireland and who supports the last shop and the post office? In other words, if we believe that farming should be subsidised, certain businesses under certain criteria, including post offices, must be subsidised as well. We should not apologise for saying that.

Perhaps we will take some brief concluding remarks from Ms Lenihan and Mr. Hunt if he wants. If there are more detailed replies that Irish Rural Link wants to forward to the committee, we shall be happy to get them.

Ms Lenihan

Mr. Boland has said a few words on whether there should be two Departments. I have lived in rural Ireland practically all my life. I come from a small farming background. I am not involved in farming at the moment, although still living in rural Ireland. I have reared my family in rural Ireland, but they have all left because there are no openings in my county for the fields in which they have chosen to be educated.

There are many people living in my part of rural Ireland who have nothing to do with land. They might have, formerly, had something to do with the land or been reared on a small farm, but they are now just living there. It was a very good idea to set up the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. At least there is a Department to support people such as me, who like to live in a rural area because of our heritage. However, we have nothing to do with farming, unfortunately. We should like to own some land, because it is very valuable at the moment, but I believe there is a need for a Department which looks after the needs of people living in rural areas. On the issue of women supporting the farm income, they have done that for as long as I can remember. In my area in the past many farmers were involved in hobby farming because in most cases the income coming from the spouse employed outside the farm was the main means of support. My mother often said that farming was just about keeping the money together. It was not about making any money, but keeping the money together. When I was growing up the household was supported by an off-farm income because the family could not have survived on the earnings of a small farm in County Monaghan. That is nothing new and is a fairly common experience. It is, perhaps, especially true of people living on small farms in the Border counties where land is not necessarily as good as in other areas. Young women are not keen to support a farm that may be dying on its feet, so to speak, and not making an income. They are not keen to support a spouse or partner who is hobby farming. That day is coming to an end. The other off-farm enterprises, such as the mushroom industry, have provided a living for people in those areas, even though they were not supported by grant aid. However, the mushroom industry is more or less gone in the county. The people who were employed in that industry need to look elsewhere for employment as there are not other kinds of jobs available to them in the county. That needs to be addressed.

I do not know what the outcome will be for rural post offices. Those involved will have to get involved in other types of business. Rural post offices will not be able to stand alone because there is not enough business for them. Permission has been given for large housing schemes in rural villages that no longer have any community other than a post office, a school and a church. The village of Smithboro, which is near my own area, does not have a decent community centre. We must sustain the communities in the rural areas. Opportunities must be created for local people to address needs in their own areas. They have been doing that, which is the area of work in which I am involved. The supports need to be in place for the rural communities. The rural community is very different from what it once was, and we need to continue to support rural development other than farming, because it is not the way of the future in areas such as the Border region.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation and for their responses to the queries of committee members. I propose that we suspend to allow the witnesses to withdraw, and we will then continue in private session to deal with a few housekeeping matters.

Ms Lenihan

We thank everybody for giving us the opportunity to attend the meeting and to make our presentation today.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.33 p.m and adjourned at 1.35 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 22 March 2007.
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