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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Mar 2007

Farm Retirement Scheme: Discussion with IFA.

We are in public session. The minutes of the meeting held on 7 March 2007 have been circulated. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. I welcome Mr. Pádraig Divilly, chairman of the IFA rural development committee; Mr. Gerry Gunning, secretary of the IFA rural development committee; and Ms Elaine Farrell, IFA Oireachtas liaison officer. They are with us to make a presentation on the EU early retirement scheme.

I draw the attention of all to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Divilly may proceed with his presentation.

Mr. Pádraig Divilly

I thank the Chairman and his colleagues. It is good to have the opportunity to discuss the early retirement scheme. We are all aware that the survival of agriculture requires restructuring and having as many young people as possible involved in farming. In the recent CAP reform and WTO negotiations, it was obvious there is a major competitive element in farming. We all talk about operating in a global economy and we depend on being as competitive as possible.

There is an imbalance in the age profile of Irish farmers, with up to 47% of farmers older than 55 years of age and 11% younger than 35 years of age. The size of farms in Ireland is quite small relative to our competitors. For example, only 3.5% of farms are over 100 hectares, with 39% of farms over 30 hectares in size. The average sized farm in 2003 was 32.3 hectares and 51% of farms are less than 30 hectares.

Restructuring is needed. In 1994, one of the accompanying measures of the CAP reform was the early retirement scheme, which played a key role and has been availed of by many farmers. From 1994 to 1999, in excess of 10,000 farmers availed of the scheme, which facilitated a transfer of more than 250,000 hectares of land to younger farmers. The second scheme was less successful, with only approximately 100,000 hectares of land being transferred by approximately 3,000 farmers. There was a number of reasons for the slow-down in uptake among those reaching retirement age, including the pension rate, the age factor and the Fischler reform, which had a major effect in that farmers were left in an uncertain situation.

During the mid-term review of the 2000-06 scheme by the Department, the IFA made proposals on what needed to be done and also made a submission to this committee. We highlighted the difficulties, the major one being that there has never been indexation of the pension, with other difficulties being the age of the transferee, which was reduced, the off-farm income criteria of transferees and the unit limit of transferors. Also, something of a bad taste was given to the scheme in the early stages. The advice from the Department of Social Welfare to people taking part in this scheme at the early stage was very poor in terms of how it would affect other pensions to which they were entitled.

The 2003 CAP reform resulted in entitlement to single farm payment being established by farmers. The payment was linked to the reference years 2000-02. We made representations to the Department and a number of concessions were achieved for people who availed of retirement. These were people who retired before the reference period, especially people who were not in a position to transfer to a family member. In the case where, on the expiry of the lease, a family member could come in, they would be entitled to the single farm payment. Then there was the case of individuals who retired during the reference period and the farm had been inherited by gift. The new farmers received the entitlements established by the person retiring at that time or immediately after. The retiring farmer could establish entitlement under the private contract clause, where the claim would be put on hold until such time as the land came back into the use of the farmer. These concessions sorted out some problems, but we have to look at the broader picture. A deal was worked out in the partnership negotiations regarding European and national funding for the rural development plan 2007-13. One element of the agreement was that there would be an increased pension and the off-farm income for the transferor and the transferee would be made more suitable.

It was agreed that under the farm development scheme the early retirement programme would include the following: increasing the maximum pension to €15,000; restructuring of the calculation of the pension to ensure front-loading to facilitate people who would not have have the number of hectares to qualify; and increasing the age of the transferee to 45. This addressed a major problem. In the first and second early retirement schemes, people who were transferees found that when their ten-year leases were up they were outside the age category, but were under the age for early retirement. People who are or have been transferees will be allowed to be transferees up to the age of 50. That is necessary. The view could be taken that they should be allowed to have land available to them up to the age of 55 or 56.

The off-farm income for the transferee is to be €50,000. There is no upper income limit for the transferor, except that he or she has to show for the year prior to retirement that his or her income from farming represented 25%. In the case of land transfer, the holding of the transferee must be, in a non-disadvantaged area, a minimum of 20 hectares, or 15 hectares in a disadvantaged area. In regard to any land transferred through lease or outright transfer from 1 January, the transferor and the transferee will qualify for the retirement pension, provided they meet certain conditions.

A number of matters have to be thrashed out and flexibility is essential. We have to look at the broader picture relating to farming and early retirement. Youth installation aid and early retirement must be dealt with together. Tax concessions relating to stamp duty must apply flexibly to facilitate young people to enter farming. If a young person inherits a farm and transfers acre for acre to consolidate, there is a difficulty regarding capital gains. That problem needs to be addressed because there is no point in talking about consolidation while it is being made difficult. There has been an increase of 57% in youth installation aid, bringing it up to €15,000. Indexation is essential to make this aid and the pension more positive. There is also a 10% extra farm modernisation grant for people qualifying for installation aid.

Farmers used to be fairly conservative. They dealt with sheep, cattle, dairy and tillage. Younger people are more enterprising and many of them would like to diversify. A farmer who decides to afforestate part of his land can consolidate his entitlements. That same provision needs to apply if a farmer wants to go into an enterprise where some of his land is not available for forage. He should not lose entitlements if he wants to establish an alternative enterprise, which might not begin to pay for five or six years. In a disadvantaged area he would lose that payment anyway if he did not have the forage area. In the single farm payment it can be consolidated.

We need to consider how best to maintain farming as an industry and attract young people to it.

Mr. Gerry Gunning

We see the early retirement scheme as an important measure. It is part of the rural development programme which covers many other areas such as REPS, farm investments, forestry, disadvantaged areas schemes, etc. We have to look at the package of rural development measures. We would like the pension to be higher. The maximum allowable under European legislation is €18,000. As part of the partnership negotiations in advance of the rural development plan going to Brussels, the compromise figure is €15,000. This figure and the issues surrounding the early retirement scheme need to be revisited over the coming years. The problem in the past was that there was no change in the first early retirement scheme until the second scheme was introduced seven years later. This also happened in respect of the second early retirement scheme that was agreed in 2000, in which no real changes were introduced until 2007.

During the negotiations, the question arose of a top-up for the first and second early retirement schemes which would be backdated to November 2006. While people deserved it, the problem was that—

Although a vote has been called in the Dáil, a few minutes remain to members. Mr. Gunning may continue.

Mr. Gunning

I have nearly finished. My point is that early retirement is part of an overall package. The Chairman is au fait with the budget proposals made by the IFA in respect of consolidation to which Mr. Pádraig Divilly referred. We envisage it as part of an overall package of measures. There are and will probably continue to be problems in respect of the early retirement scheme. However, it is the job of the IFA and the joint committee to try to resolve them. As for the new scheme that is about to be implemented, we seek a review of its operations as soon as possible. This could be done after two or three years rather than waiting for seven years. This is our request to the joint committee today.

Does Ms Farrell wish to contribute?

Ms Elaine Farrell

No.

Very well. We must leave.

I suggest that Deputies Naughten and Wilkinson should pair. I will pair with Deputy Hoctor and the meeting could continue.

Unfortunately, it does not work like that. Is it agreed to suspend the meeting until the vote has been taken? Agreed. I apologise to the witnesses, but these things happen.

Sitting suspended at 12.01 p.m. and resumed at 12.17 p.m.

We will resume the meeting. I apologise to everybody, but these things happen. That is democracy.

I welcome the delegation, including Mr. Divilly and the representatives of the IFA. I have a number of brief questions.

Moving away from the presentation, the delegation touched on a few matters. Mr. Gunning might be able to answer the first question and might come back to the committee if the figures are available to him. My first question concerns the percentages that were given out in respect of the size of farms in this country. Has the early retirement scheme had an impact on that restructuring or has it had much impact? For example, in his presentation, Mr. Divilly said that 51% of farms are less than 30 hectares in size. Has this reduced over the term of the early retirement scheme? In other words, has the early retirement scheme been successful in consolidating the size of farms? I know it is a bit of a curve ball, but maybe Mr. Divilly can provide the committee with some information.

My second question concerns a point touched on by Mr. Divilly in his presentation, namely, the poor legal and financial advice given to farmers. This seems to be a significant issue in respect of the early retirement scheme and a significant part of the problem in respect of issues dealt with by this committee in connection with participants in the early retirement scheme. It is an issue right across the board, not just with regard to farmers involved in the farm retirement scheme. While there is a relatively good structure in place in respect of agricultural advice, there seems to be a very weak structure in respect of legal and financial advice for farmers, which is becoming increasingly important. To get independent advice on those issues, do we need to increase expertise in Teagasc? While current incomes in the industry are poor, it is asset rich.

The sole objective is to try to involve more people in farming. The early retirement scheme was successful initially and our guests have highlighted some of the anomalies that caused the problems and left us in a situation where the scheme is not as attractive as it should have been. Do our guests believe that the new scheme will attract an increased number of participants compared to the ERS II, putting it in line with the ERS I?

Our guests made a valid argument regarding the limit for the payment of the ERS pension, which is to increase to €15,000. There is flexibility to allow that amount to increase to €18,000 under EU rules. Regarding installation aid, which is to increase to €15,000, what is the upper cap? It is important to examine both sides of the matter because the scheme's objective is to get more young people involved in farming. We must make the scheme more attractive, but we need to encourage young people to enter farming and to make it a viable business.

Whether in terms of the social welfare pension or the taxation of retirement relief in respect of forestry and so forth, a difficulty experienced by the IFA is that the scheme's participants are finding that once they have spent ten years away from agriculture, they are not entitled to the reliefs to which they would have been had they stayed in farming. This relates to a point on which I have argued with the Department of Social and Family Affairs. If a farmer is in the scheme, his or her lease is exempt from the calculation of his or her old age pension. However, once he or she leaves the scheme, the full value of the scheme's pension is deducted from the old age pension, with the exception of €20 per week. This leaves retired farmers in a difficult situation in that they cannot return to farming because they participated in the scheme and, if they do not lease their farms, a nominal figure is taken and deducted. While the theory behind the scheme was an increased income during participation in the scheme, they are worse off financially once they conclude the scheme than someone who did not participate. Will our guests address some of these points?

I welcome the delegation from the IFA and its presentation. For some time, there have been a number of anomalies in the farm retirement scheme. For example, many people who took part in the previous scheme must repay money because they are also in receipt of the social welfare pension. There is a great deal of misinformation. While "flawed" might be a harsh word to use when describing the advice given when the farmers first participated, we found that many of those who were advised early were inclined to opt out because of grey areas.

This is a significant issue. Two early retirement scheme groups have appeared before the committee, led by Mr. Eamon O'Donoghue and Mr. Seán Guerin. One group had 72 cases before the Department, an anomalous issue that must be addressed. I have also taken cases to the Department.

The idea behind the scheme was good, namely, to give financial security to parents leasing to young people. Our guests referred to restructuring, in respect of which I agree, but if we examine current land and land sales, many of those in the market for land are not full-time farmers, which poses a difficulty. Young people are moving in other directions, but holding onto the land as part-time farmers. This makes restructuring in its truest sense difficult.

Many of the issues have been addressed and good decisions have been taken. Our guests have highlighted another number, in respect of which I agree, but it is vital to scrutinise the scheme closely to make it more attractive. While it would be of some help, there are larger issues. For example, one of the first matters to be addressed is the situation in which a few farmers find themselves, namely, needing to repay large sums of money. We have taken the matter up with the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Minister for Agriculture and Food, but we await their decisions. There are major issues involved and I ask that our guests continue pressing them, as we support the IFA.

I welcome today's deputation and thank our guests for their briefing. While it was informative, I have a problem in that the IFA agreed and signed up to the partnership process. I received the impression that this issue was dealt with under the process. I might be wrong, but is the committee or the IFA being duped? Has the Government not fulfilled its commitment under the partnership agreement? Why are we listening to the delegation's justifiable complaints about the farm retirement scheme? Was it not agreed with the Government that the scheme would be reformed and the IFA's concerns would be addressed? Will our guests clarify where the matter stands?

The IFA and other sectors have often put it to me that one of the reasons there are few young people involved in farming is due to a reluctance among the farming community to leave land to daughters. We know the story of the daughter walking down the aisle with the bouquet of flowers as a bride and returning with half a farm, but does the opposite not apply? When a son gets married, his bride could get half the farm. Is this an issue or is it just a red herring?

What is the current status of the scheme? I understand that it is not working, given that it is not possible to make an application. Was this matter dealt with under the partnership agreement? At such an important time in farming, why is there a lull and why can one not apply? Could our guests address the issue of bureaucracy, a bone of contention in agriculture? Even solicitors have difficulty in filling an application form for the farm retirement scheme.

I also welcome the deputation from the IFA. It seems the IFA had a dilemma in trying to please the young farmer who wanted to take up farming and the older farmer who wanted to retire. Applicants for the early retirement scheme were aggrieved that they lost their entitlements on their land. How did the IFA manage that dilemma? Some early retirement farmers felt under-represented by the IFA. The representatives of two early retirement groups were with us recently. They shared common ground in their representations, yet they work separately. What communication has the IFA had with those groups?

I too welcome my colleagues from the IFA. I was recently at the Irish Farm Centre and it brought back many memories. Many of the questions I wished to raise have already been asked. However, one relevant question centres on the transfer of property. How much briefing regarding the new single premium is given to solicitors and those involved in transferring land from father to son or by any other method? I understand from constitutents that a number of articles have been published recently in farming newspapers regarding the legal position. I understand one cannot benefit from entitlements unless one has land, yet the entitlements are being treated as an asset.

In one case with which I am dealing a will was made in 1998 when entitlements were not an issue. The testator has passed away and the family is in a very difficult situation. I asked in the Dáil some seven or eight months ago that action should be taken, but solicitors have not received communication of any kind as to how to deal with this difficulty. I am sure others are in the same position. Many young farmers have not received their payments because of hold-ups in the transfer procedure within the Department of Agriculture and Food. This is a serious matter. I support the improvements in the farm retirement scheme and I would like to see the new aspects introduced as quickly as possible to give some guarantee to young farmers that they will be able to move forward. Like Deputy Hoctor, I would be interested in comments on balancing the right of young people to get their entitlements with the loss of those entitlements by those who have signed up to retirement. It is not easy to achieve a balance.

Mr. Divilly

When the scheme started in 1994 it was very important to farm families. Farm income was not great and they were always under pressure. Certainly there was not an income for two families. The scheme provided an income for those retiring, while the young people taking over could generate an income from the farm. It enables a young person to stay in the locality rather than move away. Off-farm employment was also beneficial, both for young people and for those retiring from farming who might move on to something else. The scheme had a major impact.

Every year there are fewer people in farming. Therefore, the size of farms has increased in the past ten or 15 years. Even with 30 hectares, a farmer will not make a full living but it nevertheless represents an important element of income, with off-farm income as well. There is a massive service industry around agriculture. The spin-off is very important.

Mr. Gunning

The average size of farm which came under the scheme was about 24 hectares, while the enlarged farm was 47 hectares. There is no doubt that there has been poor legal and financial advice. We do as much as we can, producing brochures and newsletters, etc. However, the IFA is not dealing with the client. We have held advice clinics, bringing in solicitors and so forth and we will do that again in the context of the new scheme. It operates on a case by case basis and inevitably Deputies end up dealing with problems. I can only assume that there has been some litigation. We would encourage anybody who takes on a consultant or engages legal representation to look at the question of indemnification. We are particularly concerned about this area.

There are leasing incentives on the tax side, but concessions do not exist in the context of social welfare. We have raised this in our pre-budget submissions over the years and we will continue to pursue that point. Not all farmers are covered by the contributory old age pension. It is fine for those people for whom it is not a problem, but there are means test difficulties for those who do not have the full record of PRSI contributions since 1998. We will continue to raise that matter also.

Deputy Wilkinson mentioned the case where the Department of Social and Family Affairs said there was a pension due and there was no deduction from the early retirement pension. The European legislation provides that the early retirement pension cannot replace the State pension. However, this point was not picked up by the Department of Social and Family Affairs and people were double paid. A large sum of money has to be clawed back. Unfortunately, neither the Department of Agriculture and Food nor the Department of Social and Family Affairs picked up on this. It transpired people were double paid and a large sum of money must be clawed back by the Department of Social and Family Affairs. We put this down to maladministration and a line should be drawn at this point where it should be admitted a mistake was made and the Department should not seek the money back. In future the Departments of Agriculture and Food and Social and Family Affairs should ensure cross-reference.

Does this happen at present?

Mr. Gunning

It may happen now but we deal with historical cases. I know of a person who had to pay back €72,000, a significant amount for a person of old age.

Senator Coonan raised the matter of the start-up of the scheme. The new early retirement scheme must be approved by the European Union. With certain events to take place shortly, we expect to have an announcement soon.

Will it be announced shortly?

Mr. Gunning

Many of the issues raised are historical issues and will be addressed in the new early retirement scheme to be introduced. We can dwell too much on the past but we can learn from it. It is hoped many of the issues we highlighted as problems will be addressed in the new scheme on which we are still in negotiations.

Deputy Hoctor raised the matter of the two groups which was a dilemma. The IFA, the Government and the Department of Agriculture and Food must work within the constraints of European legislation. The reference period for the single farm payments was defined from 2000 to 2002. Mr. Divilly outlined three areas where it was possible to receive the single farm payment. These included people who farmed during part of the reference period and those who retired prior to it whose children went into farming and were classified as a special category in the national reserve.

We must consider all sides in this issue. The outcome was not perfect for those who had retired because the CAP reform introduced in 2003 had not been signalled and quotas which previously existed no longer did so because of incorporation into the single farm payment. It was a decision of the European Union to scrap the quota system.

On behalf of the committee I thank Mr. Divilly, Mr. Gunning and Ms Farrell for attending and responding to the queries raised by members. It is always a pleasure dealing with them.

Sitting suspended at 12.43 p.m. and resumed at 12.55 p.m.
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