JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Feb 2008

Premises Accreditation: Discussion with Veterinary Ireland and Veterinary Council of Ireland.

Chairman

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Ms Ciara Feeney, Mr. John Horan and Mr. Pat Kirwan from Veterinary Ireland, Ms Meta Osborne, Mr. Donal Connolly and Mr. Joe Cassidy from the Veterinary Council of Ireland, and Mr. John O'Rourke, farmer, to today's meeting and thank them for their attendance.

There are two items on the agenda; first, the development of veterinary practice, and, second, Aujeszky's disease. I understand that Ms Feeney will give a brief introduction on Veterinary Ireland and Ms Osborne will make an opening statement on the first item. Mr. Kirwan and Mr. Cassidy will speak on the second item, Aujeszky's disease.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. We will proceed with the presentations.

Ms Ciara Feeney

I am the president of Veterinary Ireland, the representative body for veterinary practitioners in Ireland. It is a voluntary organisation, with approximately 1,200 members, affiliated to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Small Firms Association. The role of Veterinary Ireland is to represent veterinary surgeons in Ireland and to facilitate the veterinary profession in its commitment to improve the health and welfare of the animals under its care, to protect public health and to serve the changing needs of its clients and the community through effective and innovative leadership.

Mr. John Horan

We have given the committee copies of the presentation. We will go through it, if we may, and then answer questions. My role is to outline the submission from Veterinary Ireland on developing veterinary practices.

Serious concerns have been expressed in many quarters about the problems facing the veterinary sector, both internationally and here in Ireland. The difficulties facing farmers from changes taking place in agriculture and the resultant financial pressures are undoubtedly beginning to put similar pressures on the veterinary profession. While this is clearly not just an Irish problem, the non-resolution of it could have serious consequences for the Irish economy.

Expectations, on the other hand, are growing apace on the health, safety and welfare of animals, the health and safety of their owners, and the maintenance of standards of food safety, etc. These expectations were highlighted and provided for, specifically, in the new Veterinary Practice Act, which was passed into law in mid-2005. It places a whole raft of additional requirements on the profession, including the introduction of regulations in respect of veterinary premises. Their implementation will place yet another burden on an already stretched sector. The profession wishes to work with the spirit of the new regulations, with a view to achieving the specified objectives for animals and clients. The profession will, however, require assistance to do so. There are numerous precedents for such assistance and this submission is presented to the joint committee to seek support for the profession's request that consideration be given to the introduction of financial supports for the development of veterinary practices

The financial pressures on farmers in Ireland and elsewhere are having consequences for their viability and, in turn, are impacting on the operations of the veterinary professionals who support them. These are summed up well in the following comments made in an editorial of the UK's Farmers Weekly:

Imagine a health service with no general practitioners. It's unthinkable. But that is the grim prospect facing the UK livestock industry. A crisis of dramatic proportions is emerging in the countryside, leaving livestock farmers without access to one of their key support groups — vets. In an age when animal health is regularly top of the mainstream news agenda, losing knowledgeable, reliable vets would be a disaster farmers and society can ill afford.

The difficulties giving rise to these trends internationally are replicated in Ireland. The difficulties, however, could be even more serious here and the Government should be supportive of any and all attempts to maintain and improve veterinary infrastructure throughout the country. Not to do so could run the risk of inadequate veterinary surveillance, missed opportunities for the early identification of new and emerging diseases, potential adverse implications for animal welfare and public health, not to mention the removal of what Farmers Weekly referred to as one of the “key support groups” for livestock farmers.

The Veterinary Practice Act 2005, which was steered through the Houses of the Oireachtas by the Minister, Deputy Coughlan, and on which this committee did much valuable work, was signed into law in July 2005. It introduced a range of new obligations on the veterinary profession, in line with changing practices and increasing expectations among clients and the public generally.

Part 9 of the new Act, a copy of which is attached in full for the committee as an appendix to our submission, provides for the introduction of regulations in respect of veterinary premises. Regulation 108 in particular sets out the purposes of their introduction as follows: promoting and protecting the health, safety and welfare of animals; protecting the safety of owners and carers of animals and registered persons engaged in the practice of veterinary medicine or veterinary nursing and the public; and maintaining proper standards as regards veterinary premises in the State.

The Act also gives the Veterinary Council of Ireland the statutory function "to specify and keep under review standards of veterinary premises", including a requirement for a mandatory scheme for the registration of all veterinary premises. This comprehensive scheme will effectively require many veterinary practices to upgrade and improve their physical facilities in order to achieve accreditation at the desired standard. Veterinary Ireland has been supportive of this work in recognition of the overall longer-term public good that will be delivered. We realise, however, that in order for the longer-term benefit for everyone involved to be achieved, it will be essential in the short term that the affected practices involved are assisted to meet the financial costs which such changes will inevitably entail.

Within the broader agriculture sector, there are numerous examples of similar support structures in place. However, it should be stressed that the total sums involved in supporting the relatively small number of veterinary practices that will require it will be very much lower. Financial supports towards capital expenditure on computer hardware and software have previously been given to those becoming involved with the new animal health computer system, AHCS. Veterinary Ireland strongly supported the Department's work in this regard, yielding substantial savings for relatively small grant assistance.

Against this background, Veterinary Ireland is requesting that consideration be given to the introduction of financial supports for registered veterinary practitioners for the upgrading of their practice premises and facilities. The organisation will be pleased to work with the Government in developing and promoting such a scheme to its members and earnestly seeks the support of the joint committee for the profession's request for assistance in meeting this new legislative imperative.

Ms Meta Osbourne

I am deputy president of the Veterinary Council of Ireland, the statutory body established under the Veterinary Practice Act 2005 to regulate the veterinary profession in the State. The council consists of 19 members drawn from the veterinary profession and from bodies with an interest in veterinary matters, such as those in the food safety area, consumers, users of veterinary services and education providers. It has a range of specific functions under the Act, including registration, education, discipline, ensuring the standards of veterinary premises, making pronouncements in respect of issues that affect the profession and advising the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on relevant matters.

Mr. Donal Connolly

I am an elected member of council and I have been chair of the practice-premises committee since the coming into force of the Act in 2006.

The Veterinary Practice Act 2005 empowered the Veterinary Council of Ireland to draft and implement regulations regarding practice premises. These regulations established four different classes of veterinary premises — State-owned premises are exempt — and set standards for equipment and resources in each class of premises.

Premises assessors, who will be trained to audit compliance with each of the four standards, are being recruited. A four-year period is allowed for the initial phase of inspections and preliminary certificates of suitability have been issued to all who have registered a standard to date. Final certification will, however, depend on the results of the audit and assessment.

The mandatory nature of the regulations requires significant upgrading of buildings and equipment by many veterinary practices. Practitioner feedback to the Veterinary Council of Ireland from regional meetings and from individual queries to the registrar indicate serious concerns regarding a sustainable future for the veterinary profession in its current form in some regions. Reasons advanced for this include an increasing age profile; decreasing returns from veterinary practice; geographic location; and lack of a time-off rota. On foot of these and other issues, some practices may reduce their levels of veterinary and, or, lay staff or encourage people to take early retirement. As a result, there is a potential for some areas to have a reduced or no immediate veterinary service.

When the State service announced vacancies for veterinary officers, it is interesting that up to 20% of those practising in the profession applied for these positions. Such a scenario points to a potential reduction in the number of veterinary practitioners in rural areas and thus the availability of veterinary services nationwide, particularly as the Veterinary Council of Ireland enforces the regulations relating to veterinary premises. A reduction of this nature would run counter to the objectives of the recent legislation and the function of the Veterinary Council of Ireland, which is the protection of the public interest through the promotion and protection of the health and welfare of animals; the protection and safety of owners and carers of animals and registered persons in practice or nursing and the public; and maintenance of proper standards of veterinary premises in the State.

Risks to the public interest arise under three main headings. The first of these is veterinary public health, which was defined by the World Health Organisation, WHO, at Terramo, Italy, in 1999 as "the sum of all contributions to the physical, mental and social well-being of humans through an understanding and application of veterinary science". This definition recognises the fact that throughout the world, human and animal health are inextricably linked because all share the same environment and on foot of the role of animals in food production, transportation, clothing and companionship.

The risks to public health, and the economic consequences of diseases transmitted from animals to man — zoonoses — are very significant. The WHO recognises that, in the past ten years, 75% of the new or emerging diseases affecting humans are caused by pathogens originating in animals or animal products. Furthermore, established zoonotic diseases such as brucellosis, cryptosporidiosis, leishmaniasis and echinococcosis continue to affect public health, hinder socio-economic development and create barriers to international trade.

The second of the three main headings is integrated surveillance. The existing distribution of veterinary practices throughout Ireland has been a major contributor to the current excellent animal health and welfare standards and also the economic well-being of Irish society and agriculture. Veterinary practitioners play a major role in preventing and controlling zoonotic diseases. They do so by working in such domains as disease surveillance, food protection, environmental and water quality management and co-ordination of the response to public health emergencies. In this regard, they collaborate and interact with other scientists and health professionals. Any diminution of the number of veterinary practitioners or the immediate availability of veterinary clinical expertise would have a negative impact in each of these areas.

The third heading is agriculture and international trade. Relative to Third World countries, Ireland has a high production cost base which necessitates access to premium markets, rather than dependence on world commodity prices. Access to such markets demands the highest disease-free standards possible. Freedom from class A and class B diseases enables the Irish agrifood industry to export approximately 80% of its national production. The emergence of hitherto exotic OIE class B diseases in Ireland in recent years has increased the threat to the country's trading status. Recent outbreaks of diseases such as foot and mouth disease in Europe in 2001 and bluetongue in northern Europe in 2006 and in the UK in 2007 have demonstrated the trade consequences for any country affected by such outbreaks. In the absence of the current national veterinary service infrastructure, integrated veterinary surveillance aimed at the early detection and elimination of such diseases would be difficult, if not impossible.

In the past, the Veterinary Council promoted the public interest through support for State investment in veterinary education and undergraduate training and research. It also supported the establishment of a world-class diagnostic laboratory facility such as the that at Backweston. Equally, the public has a legitimate expectation of a readily available, modern, sophisticated and wide-ranging clinical veterinary service in a country recognised for its high standards of animal health and welfare. Any threat to this status is of significant concern to the Veterinary Council of Ireland. The council believes it to be in the public interest that the Government supports legislation for which it is responsible by funding the requirements of the practice premises regulations described in the Veterinary Practice Act 2005 and the council requests that financial support should apply from its establishment date, that is, 1 January 2006.

Mr. John Horan

I do not wish to sound a note of dissent but this is one issue on which Veterinary Ireland and the Veterinary Council have slightly different approaches. The council would like eligible expenditure backdated to 1 January 2006 while Veterinary Ireland believes it should be backdated by an additional six months to 12 July 2005 when the Act was signed into law. It is not a major difference but it is a subtle point. That concludes our formal presentations. However, Ms Valerie Beatty, the registrar of the council will contribute and reply to questions, as will Mr. John O'Rourke, who is a valuable member of our delegation. He does not have a formal presentation to make but many members will know him from his previous incarnations as a mart manager and an active farmer. He is also a ministerial appointee to the council. As a user of the veterinary service, I would like him to make a contribution from a farmer's perspective.

Mr. John O’Rourke

I am pleased about the number of Oireachtas Members present. It shows an interest in what I consider to be a genuine case. I formerly managed two marts and I am a full-time farmer who uses the veterinary service. When I left home, I gave my caretaker the number for my veterinarian, who is in a practice of three, because I could not leave my farm with sheep, lambs and cows calving, without being sure one of them was on hand. Veterinarians do more departmental work than they are ever credited for and during my years as a mart manager I could not do without the local veterinarian being available 24 hours a day. As members of the council, we have to do our duty to regulate under the new Act but there is over regulation, which will cost veterinarians a large amount. I have examined practices that must relocate and some will go out of existence in rural Ireland if they are not supported. Many young people who have qualified in this field will seek other jobs and we will be dependent soon on part-timers from practices overseas who will not have the money to comply with the regulations, although they will provide a good service for the short time they are here.

I must compliment the Minister and her staff on their efforts to provide a payment of €80 solely for animal welfare. How can the welfare of animals be ensured if professionals are not available to look after them? Animals will not look after themselves and veterinary practices that are on call 24 hours a day are needed everywhere. I agree our standards are among the highest in Europe and they should be maintained. During the seven-year transition period of accreditation, when inspectors must close a number of veterinary practices which we cannot do without, we must support them. I am present at my own expense as a user of the service and I am trying to impress upon the committee its importance. It is seriously important from a farmer's point of view and all the members represent constituencies in which there are farmers. I am not here for a cod or because I like veterinarians. I have had disagreements with them along the line but their value is unquestionable. I have never called a veterinarian who failed to arrive immediately. I was sick lately and I rang a doctor who could not visit my house. I had to be brought to his surgery and we are all aware of the support doctors receive. I appeal to the committee to seriously consider the sincere views of this delegation. I would not be party to them if they were not important.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

I thank the Chairman for his kind words regarding Deputy Creed, Fine Gael's spokesperson, who is recovering from minor surgery. I thank the delegation for attending. My eldest son is studying for his leaving certificate and he says there is no point in applying for veterinary science through the CAO because it requires the highest number of points. Many young people still want to become veterinarians. Approximately 20% of those currently practising have applied for easier positions and that indicates that after they qualify, they realise the profession is not as glamorous as they expected. There are many good veterinarians and, for example, my first cousin recently spent a significant amount revamping a premises in Wicklow town. Practices along the east coast are insulated because many people have horses and other pets whereas rural practices are more dependent on agriculture.

The Veterinary Council comprises 19 members who represent various strands. How many are veterinarians? How much influence have they on the council? Is there a danger when setting standards that the council runs the risk of doing damage by forcing people out of the profession because they are unassailable and will break the bank? Reference was made to supports and minor grant assistance. How much support should be provided? What form should it take? I acknowledge the issue of backdating the eligible expenditure but it is not clear what supports will be required. I am a farmer and veterinarians visit my farm. Mr. O'Rourke said a veterinarian can be called on at 3 a.m. to preform a caesarian but a doctor will not call to my house if I suffer a cardiac arrest, for example. Is there a danger the drive to prevent diseases reaching our shores will take from the care of sick animals? Are we in danger of reaching a level such as that of New Zealand, where the cost of getting a vet to tend to a sick animal is prohibitive and a humane method of destroying the animal is considered more appropriate? While that is not the reality in this country, it is the reality in other countries. Are we moving to a situation where we are no longer trying to prevent new diseases coming into the country? The World Health Organisation pointed out that 75% of new diseases come from animal pathogens. That has probably always been the case but perhaps the research was not carried out in detail previously.

Those are my points, questions and observations on the presentation which I found very interesting. What format of support does the delegation require?

Chairman

I will call Deputy Sherlock next unless the delegates want to respond now.

Mr. John Horan

We are in the Chairman's hands. We can respond directly if the Chairman wishes.

Chairman

We will take questions from the spokespersons and then get the response.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

I must apologise in advance because I have to speak in the House and will have to leave immediately after asking my questions.

I thank the delegation for its presentation. Mr. O'Rourke hit the nail on the head when he stated our great little country now has a system where every aspect of human behaviour or economic or social practice is being regulated in some way or fashion. However, the resources to enforce regulation are not available. Veterinary Ireland and the Veterinary Council of Ireland were willing partners in the Act and acted in partnership during its formulation. However, we now have a situation where there is penalisation in terms of how the regulation and the Act is enforced.

If rural Ireland and our agribusiness are to thrive, this must be predicated on a fully financed veterinary practice, no matter how big or small it may be. I support wholeheartedly the calls being made today. The situation is that the regulations are drafted on the eastern seaboard but they have vast implications for those living in the rest of the country. Sometimes the people drafting the regulations do not realise fully the extent of the problems or the financial hardship they will impose on those operating businesses in rural areas. Therefore, I fully support the calls being made.

I am not sure whether the representatives can answer my one question. It is possibly a matter for the Minister to answer it and perhaps we should put it to her. If financial assistance is given by way of grant aid to individual vets, could that be deemed a state aid? I hope not and that we would be in a position to provide that financial assistance. If we are going to legislate to modify behaviour and practices, we should at least be able to legislate to provide the assistance and support to back up that legislation.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

I apologise that I too must leave for a meeting. As a practising farmer I welcome the presentation made. I agree with Mr. Horan that vets and farmers must work together for unity of purpose, animal welfare and the success of their businesses. Most of the questions have been asked so I will not repeat them. Most vets have organised themselves into groups, as has been done with primary care in the health area. In my area they have amalgamated into groups of four or five with their own premises where they distribute medicines and have laboratories to which small animals can be brought for treatment. Was it this type of premises to which Mr. Horan referred when he spoke of best practice and upgrading premises to a certain standard?

Vets work in private practice and calling a vet is expensive. When a farmer calls a vet, the latter does not come as a volunteer but must be paid. Farmers pay dearly for vets, more than they would pay for a doctor. I am not criticising them; everyone has to live. Farmers would wonder at times, however, whether it is worth the cost of calling a vet to an animal because if the animal dies, they are at the loss of both the animal and the cost of the vet.

I have a question on the retrospective aspect of grant aid, going back to 2006, for the improvement and upgrading of premises. Are the representatives seeking grant aid from the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food? Would tax breaks for the moneys spent on premises be something they would consider?

I agree we must have some control over diseases. New diseases appear every year. The world is getting smaller and as a result of the amount of travel done nowadays, some diseases will be more rampant. We need some forms of controls and the Act and regulations try to provide these controls. How can this committee support Veterinary Ireland and the Veterinary Council of Ireland in this regard? What figures are available for the sum of money required per practice and what are the expected overall costs?

Chairman

Senator O'Brien also must leave early.

Senator Francis O’Brien

I apologise that I must leave immediately after speaking for another meeting. As a farmer and having listened to what Mr. O'Rourke had to say, I understand where he is coming from with regard to the importance of the vet and co-operation between farmers and vets. Deputy Aylward touched on an important issue, namely, that veterinary costs for farmers are very high. Vets are well organised now into small groups, but the service they provide has become very expensive, although it is an excellent service. In Monaghan, co-operation between vets and farmers is top class.

In the past ten years many vets have upgraded their premises following amalgamation. There was a time when farmers could bring their animals to the vet, but in County Monaghan that cannot be done any more and vets must come to the farm. The Veterinary Council of Ireland should take a look at some issues. With regard to the grants and support required, we need to know what exactly these are for. Are the funds required for premises to be used by vets amalgamating into one premises or will vets operating alone get a similar grant? We would like clarification on how exactly moneys would be spent.

As a result of my experience as a farmer I, like other committee members, fully support the council and vets in their efforts. The delegations have my full support. Veterinary services have become expensive. For a beef farmer the cost of veterinary services has increased steadily over the years, regardless of the price being achieved for cattle. It has hit a peak and that deserves to be examined. I thank the delegation for attending the meeting.

Senator Paul Bradford

I also welcome the delegations. It is noteworthy that two groups, the practitioners and the people who are supposed to monitor the practitioners, are all singing from the same hymn sheet. It must be the first occasion at any Oireachtas committee meeting that both the regulator and the people being regulated have presented the same analysis.

The Chairman made the point that, to some extent, we all represent rural constituencies and rural Ireland will not survive without a strong rural agricultural sector. A local veterinary practice is a key factor in retaining farming families on small farms. The kernel of this debate is how the new regulations will affect local veterinary practices. Unless we can ensure every farmer in every parish has easy and local access to a veterinary practice, we will not be doing our job. The presentation, documentation and pure common sense demonstrate that if we are to impose the strictest standards of regulation of premises on veterinary practices, in particular on smaller practices, this will prove to be very costly for those practices.

Previous speakers referred to the cost of veterinary medicine and I am not disputing what they said. However, compared with a general practitioner service it is very modest and moderate. The cost must be paid by someone. If we expect people to invest significant sums to upgrade and extend their premises without some degree of grant aid, we all know who eventually will pay the piper and this will be a vicious circle.

We could discuss many issues relating to veterinary recruitment, practice and scale but we are concentrating on the possible crisis down the line of rural Ireland losing many of its veterinary practices and we must find a solution to stop this happening. If we want to maintain the current level of veterinary practice, some of which are small businesses, grant aid is necessary. I am interested to hear what type of grant aid is proposed by the delegation. The grants schemes include animal welfare and dairy hygiene grants and these are to be welcomed and I would like to see more of them. This is simply another mechanism to support Irish agriculture and to support veterinary practices by ensuring the standards which they are obliged to meet can be met without practices closing down.

I fully support the presentation by the delegation. It is a sound, solid, long-term investment, not simply in the veterinary business but also in the future of Irish agriculture which cannot be sustained in its current form without the veterinary practices and without easy access to a local vet. This is what the debate is about when everything is stripped away. If we want to keep our local vets we must ensure they are given some degree of assistance to fulfil the conditions which are imposed upon them.

This committee should advocate strongly to the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food that a grant scheme be put in place. This is not the first time this committee has sought a grant scheme for Irish agriculture and we have made progress before. This is part of the same equation. Mr. O'Rourke summarised the argument very well. I thank him and his colleagues for their presentation. The committee must support the retention of rural veterinary services and small veterinary practices, something which cannot happen without some degree of assistance, whether state aid or grant aid, being put in place. I record my full support for the presentation.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

Other speakers have asked questions about the form of the financial support. In the case of an amalgamated practice with three to five vets who may have to extend their facilities, the same facilities would serve a five-vet practice as well as a single vet practice. I fear for the small vet practice, what could be termed the travelling vet who does not have a practice but rather works from home and who may not have the site or the wherewithal to build the facilities that will be needed.

I note the discrepancy between Veterinary Ireland and the Veterinary Council of Ireland regarding the backdating date. I understand this is to cover some big practices that have made the improvements already. Many small animal clinics in towns deal with dogs and other pets. A parallel has been drawn between health costs and veterinary costs. When one goes to a hospital it is either to see a gynaecologist, a geriatrician, a cardiologist, a dietician or whoever but one gets the lot with a vet. Small animal veterinary clinics are everywhere but I know vets who only deal with livestock. Many of these facilities will be white elephants. If a sole practitioner vet, a travelling vet, so to speak, does not erect these premises, will he be put out of business? I would be fearful of the cost being passed on to the farmer. What levels of funding are being sought by the delegation?

I am a new Deputy who was a small farmer but I have given that up. I was talking to my vet last night and he told me that for the first time in 30 years he has been asked by the district veterinary office to give up his TB book. I was the cause of this because I tested 132 animals and only one animal was a query.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

I thought the Deputy said he was a small farmer.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

I would be afraid that excessive regulation may result in small vets being put out of practice. It will be like prohibition and we know what happened there, in that the Mafia was born. The small vet will be pushed out. They may have been in practice for 30 years and be in their mid-50s. There will need to be some level of funding for them. They will walk away from the profession.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

That is the small farmer from Kerry.

Deputy Martin Mansergh

I suspect the history of the Mafia might be just a little bit more complicated than that. I welcome the delegations from Veterinary Ireland and the Veterinary Council of Ireland. As a farming partner I begin by paying tribute to vets. I have worked with them for more than 40 years. I refer to their excellent, vital and indispensable help. A former Member of the Dáil, Michael Ferris, was an administrator in a veterinary practice in Bansha, County Tipperary. At national level I have sat with Ministers meeting delegations from, for example, Egypt to discuss re-opening markets. Vets will be in the delegation of the other country, be it Russia or Egypt, and their advice will ultimately determine whether the market is reopened. The vets of Ireland can be proud of the way we have dealt with some of the disease threats coming from abroad. We have managed to fend off most of those threats. We have an obvious benchmark for comparison across the water where the record has been very much inferior.

I submitted my accounts for the year to the accountant earlier this week. Needless to say, the veterinary column amounts to a very significant cost. Vets do not come cheap, especially as beef farmers are operating at the margins and the returns do not necessarily increase the way they do for most other trades and professions. I would like to bring some more rigour to the discussion. When discussing veterinary premises, we are talking in a global sense. However, veterinary premises in Dún Laoghaire are totally different from veterinary premises in Tipperary town. In a place like Dún Laoghaire, practically all the work will be done on the premises on pets of various descriptions. In somewhere like Tipperary town, the vast majority of veterinary work is done out in the field. While there might be a small pet clinic by the side one evening a week, the vast majority of work is done out on the farms. There was a brief mention of four categories of premises. In some veterinary practices, the premises are vastly more important than they would be in other practices.

It is not as easy a matter as perhaps has been the assumption here to convince the Minister for Finance to introduce a new grant scheme. With respect, the case will need to be made with considerably more rigour regarding the type of scheme the organisations have in mind. Illustrative examples of the costs involved for different categories need to be given. It is extraordinarily difficult to introduce a retrospective grant scheme for building works. I find it quite difficult to envisage that the Minister for Finance—

Chairman

I ask for telephones to be turned off completely.

Deputy Martin Mansergh

My phone is turned off.

Chairman

I am not saying it is the Deputy's. Somebody has a telephone on and it is not fair to the people here.

Deputy Martin Mansergh

With most grant schemes, proposals need to be made and approved, following which a grant is provided. A case would need to be made in detail that vets cannot afford to do this themselves out of their income. Is it really the case that the number of vets in Ireland has fallen? Are there no existing tax allowance schemes that could be used for upgrading premises? The tax allowances might represent a more promising route than a grant scheme. It would obviously be for specified expenditure. The whole matter needs to be fleshed out in considerably more detail for it to have any hope of convincing the Minister for Finance.

I am very supportive and admiring of the veterinary profession and I am happy to support it if a convincing case is made. This morning, we have only really heard a very general case made which needs to be fleshed out in considerably more detail.

Senator John Carty

I, too, welcome the representatives of Veterinary Ireland and the Veterinary Council of Ireland. I have met them before on occasion and we have taken their concerns to both the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Minister for Finance. They have a case and, as the previous speaker has said, if they flesh it out I am sure there will be some support for the proposals they are making. They will have my support and I am sure all those on this side of the House.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

I apologise for being late in attending the meeting. I was making representations to another Department. I welcome the representatives of Veterinary Ireland and the Veterinary Council of Ireland. Having scanned the documentation, I can see the submissions are very worthwhile and we will undoubtedly pass them on to the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. While I welcome the regulation, apparently it will make life considerably harder for small operators, vets in rural Ireland. Vets in disadvantaged areas of the country are not on a par with their friends up the country where there is good land and if a person lost his walking stick in the morning, he would not find it for the growth of grass the following night. These people must also be taken into consideration.

Throughout the years, our GPs have operated in very up-to-date premises. They are operating from excellent dispensaries and health centres provided by the Department of Health and Children. I cannot see why the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food cannot do likewise for veterinary surgeons. It does not make sense to impose all these red tape regulations on veterinary surgeons in Ireland with no compensation to those providing the modernisation of premises. The scheme is well worthwhile but is badly founded because it has no funding. Veterinary practitioners are getting no funding for improving their premises. My nephew, Deputy Tom Sheahan from Kerry South, states that many veterinary clinics are being opened throughout the country caring for dogs, etc. We have one of them in Bantry and it is operating fairly well. We have another state-of-the-art clinic for sick animals, mainly dogs and other pets, in Ballydehob operated by two rural vets who are giving very good service to the community.

It is vital to retain a good veterinary service. In almost 99% of cases, it is possible to get a vet at any time of the day or night to call to a sick animal. It is not that way for human beings. General practitioners close their premises at 6 p.m. People in rural parts of the country must travel up to 30 miles to get the services of a doctor through organisations such as SouthDoc, which operates throughout the night from 6 p.m. to 9 a.m.

The excellent veterinary service in Ireland should be preserved and maintained. We should make every effort to help veterinary professionals develop their premises. Section 108(1) of the Veterinary Practice Act 2005 states that the council must ensure veterinary practitioners are involved in:

(a) promoting and protecting the health, safety and welfare of animals,

(b) protecting the safety of owners and carers of animals and registered persons engaged in the practice of veterinary medicine or veterinary nursing and the public, and

(c) maintaining proper standards as regards veterinary premises in the State.

As I have said, no general practitioner in this country is compelled to provide such facilities. They are provided for GPs by health boards throughout the country. It is of paramount importance that the same approach should apply in the case of vets. They are not asking for too much in their presentation. I do not doubt that the premises assessors who will be responsible for inspecting veterinary premises will be white-coat gentlemen. They will be well prepared with their documentation, etc. They might not realise the serious inconvenience they will cause this country's veterinary services.

I accept GPs are entitled to proper dispensaries. I thank God that 99% of the GPs in this country have decent and up-to-date dispensaries which people can attend in comfort. The same should appertain in the case of veterinarians. GP facilities are provided by the health board. Some kind of assistance should be provided in this instance. Deputy Mansergh suggested that assistance could be made available in the form of tax allowances rather than a grant scheme. I continue to favour the introduction of a grant scheme, however, as one might be waiting a long time to get help from the Minister for Finance or the Revenue Commissioners. If the Department of Agriculture and Food were in charge of the grant scheme, it would set the criteria for the financial aid that is needed by veterinarians throughout the country. I am only too pleased to further the case of the veterinarians for assistance from the Department.

Chairman

I did not think it would take as long to get back to Mr. Horan.

Mr. John Horan

The members of the committee have raised a wide range of issues. I am conscious of our time constraints, as I am sure the Chairman is.

Chairman

It is fine.

Mr. John Horan

I will run through the main points as quickly as I can. If there is anything I have not picked up on, my colleagues will help me out.

Chairman

That is grand.

Mr. John Horan

I am sure my colleagues will agree with me when I say I am very impressed with the support expressed by the members of the committee. It is heartwarming to hear that members understand the issues facing Irish agriculture and veterinary services. It is much appreciated. I hope it will translate into action in terms of delivering improvements. Like all professions, the veterinary profession has a difficulty in getting involved in pricing. If we do so, the Competition Authority will quite rightly come down on us like a ton of bricks. We do not go there. We recognise that times are difficult for farmers, who comprise our main client cohort although we have many other clients. The difficulties being experienced by farmers affect the veterinary profession. We have to trim our sails to what the market will bear. The members of Veterinary Ireland would argue that their prices are competitive in light of the value and service they give. It is a very competitive market. We must be careful not to go too much further than that.

Deputy Tom Sheahan said he is concerned about the impact of this regulation on small veterinary practices in particular. That concern is shared by Veterinary Ireland. One of the side-effects of the new regulation may be an increase in the rationalisation of veterinary practices. I refer to circumstances in which a couple of small practices might come together. While that might be a side-effect of the regulation, it is not its main intention. Senator Bradford argued that one of Veterinary Ireland's objectives should be to ensure that people have easy access to a local vet, which is a phrase I like. We would all say, "Hear, hear," to that. I hope the new scheme can ensure that happens. The scheme, which has been developed on the basis of international models but with an Irish flavour, is graded to cover registered veterinary practices, such as small ambulatory services, as well as registered veterinary surgeries, clinics and hospitals. It will accommodate veterinary premises with various levels of facilities and expertise. Provision has been made to continue to support the small local vet.

Members asked whether we need a grant system or some other type of structure. I recognise the point made about the difficulty of retrospection, particularly in a grant scheme. Deputy Mansergh suggested we might be better off looking at the tax code. We have made submissions directly to the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. If I read correctly between the lines, it seems there might be a better prospect of some sort of tax related scheme. We have examined the accelerated capital allowances scheme, which is already available to all industrial buildings, to that end. The term "industrial buildings" covers hotels, nursing homes, convalescent homes, sports injury clinics, mental health clinics and buildings used for the purposes of growing fruit, vegetables or other produce in the course of the trade of market gardening. There is already a precedent. We did not include any reference to the scheme in the information we submitted to the committee because we did not know how far today's session would go.

I have copies of a document that sets out the precise funding support we would like to see. It also sets out, under the heading of "accelerated capital allowances", the precise mechanism that could be used. The document refers to the need for a change in the definition in section 268 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. It could be as simple as that. I will give copies of the document to the secretary of the committee. If the definition in the 1997 Act were amended to include "registered veterinary premises", it would provide access to accelerated capital allowances of 15% per annum for six years and 10% in year seven. There is a related need for an amendment to be made to section 272 of the 1997 Act, which deals with write-offs, tax life periods and clawbacks if things change, etc. The technical detail is in the document that I will give to the secretary of the committee. I hope members will be able to read it. That is what we are looking at, in effect.

Veterinary Ireland will be asking for eligible expenditure to be backdated to the date when the Veterinary Practice Act 2005 was passed into law. It has nothing to do with any particular premises — far from it. The date in question is 12 July, which has all sorts of connotations in other jurisdictions. It is an easy date to remember. I refer in this case to 12 July 2005, the glorious 12th. That seems to us to be the logical start date. We do not want it to be an open-ended scheme because we accept there are Exchequer constraints, etc. We have suggested the scheme should last until the end of 2010. It will cover 2008, 2009 and 2010. There will be a sort of a limit on it. If the accelerated capital allowances mechanism is used, the Exchequer will not be handing out money. Savings will accrue to veterinarians in the context of revenue forgone. It is a much easier scheme to administer as one will not have to send in lots of documents to show one dug foundations, built a wall or bought a piece of machinery. It will be done by one's accountant through one's tax computations directly with the Revenue Commissioners at that end. It will be a much easier scheme to administer. The scheme would cover eligible expenditure on premises and facilities — capital equipment and so on — in the period from 12 July 2005 to the end of December 2010. The revenue foregone will, therefore, be over a much longer period. For those who have commenced works the scheme would operate for the next seven years, whereas it would extend until 2017 for those who start in 2010. This approach spreads the burden.

We appreciate the support offered by members. The Veterinary Practice Act 2005 placed a number of additional obligations on the veterinary profession, including mandatory accreditation of premises and mandatory continuing professional development, all of which are designed to ensure the interests of members of the public and their animals are protected to the greatest possible extent. When the overriding considerations of public health and animal health and welfare are taken into account, it is clear that these obligations on the profession offer real protections for the members of the public we serve. We are, therefore, pleased to comply with them and proud of the work we do with animals on behalf of the public. The commitment and contribution of the veterinary profession are recognised, as we noted from members' comments, and we value the vital support we receive from clients. Without it, we are at nothing and we do not want this hard-won relationship to be damaged, even inadvertently.

On Deputy Doyle's question about the number of veterinarians on the Veterinary Council of Ireland, the new council has 19 members and an in-built lay majority. As it happens, however, some of the nominating bodies nominated veterinarians. Nine veterinarians were elected, while the dean of the faculty was nominated by the university. As a result of additional nominations, 12 of the 19 council members are veterinarians.

We acknowledge the work done by the joint committee in the evolution of the 2005 Act. We ask members to support the profession as we seek to secure assistance for the development of veterinary practices to enable us to continue our work with animals and their owners in the best interests of the community. Veterinary Ireland will be available to discuss with the joint committee or its individual members any matter they may wish to raise today or in the days ahead.

Senator Paul Bradford

Is Veterinary Ireland calling on the Government to introduce a tax allowance or tax relief scheme rather than a grants scheme? The joint committee has been considering the grant aid option, whereas the delegation would like us to pursue the possibility of introducing capital allowances tax relief.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

I suggest the delegation endorse and promote the continuation of the RTE television series "Vets on Call" as it has had a positive impact on people from urban areas who previously knew little about the role of veterinarians. The programmes showed the profession in a positive light.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

Until Mr. Horan made his contribution, it was not clear how Veterinary Ireland would make its pitch. It is important in terms of the different categories to make a distinction between food and health and safety, on the one hand, and, on the other, providing support for pet plan. This will be necessary to convince people that the scheme is worthwhile, given that in some larger towns the majority of veterinary business is based on domestic animals. We need to ensure that any scheme of accelerated capital allowances facilitates veterinarians providing services that are focused on animal welfare, food safety and human health. This is a vital point.

Mr. John Horan

While I agree with Deputy Doyle's final point on the health of humans, the potential for serious zoonotic disease from pets is significant.

Deputy Andrew Doyle

I accept that.

Mr. John Horan

The veterinary system is integrated and close knit and needs to be supported as a whole. From that perspective, the scheme should cover all veterinarians allowing for different gradations.

On Senator Bradford's point on grants, as a profession we would welcome the possibility of grants being provided. However, we are realistic and accept that this is not the most likely outcome. The outcome most likely to achieve success and be most acceptable would be in the form of accelerated capital allowances. That is the reason we specifically set out the detail of a scheme.

Mr. John O’Rourke

We overlooked small animal practices to some extent. This has become a major issue because the population has grown by 1 million. We are a rich country in which people have dogs for protection and many people walk with their animals. Small animals are important and should not be overlooked, nor should the contribution from, and need for, equine veterinary medicine. We attract a large number of people to the many race meetings and shows held here, all of which must be supervised by veterinarians. Significant revenue is generated from this activity.

Mr. Donal Connolly

I am pleased at the grasp members have shown of the issue and praise their interest in it. It is interesting that the Veterinary Council of Ireland and Veterinary Ireland are of a single voice. It has been mentioned time and again that requirements in this regard are law. As we speak, 30% of the infrastructure in the industry is at risk.