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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Nov 2008

Fishing Industry: Discussion.

I welcome the representatives from the Federation of Irish Fishermen, FIF, and the Marine Institute to discuss matters relating to the fishing industry. There are representatives here from four different organisations under the umbrella of the Federation of Irish Fishermen. These include: Mr. Gerard O'Flynn, chairman of the FIF, who represents the Irish South and West Fish Producers Organisation; Mr Lorcán Ó Cinnéide, chief executive officer of the Irish Fish Producers Organisation; Mr. Michael Walsh, chief executive officer of the Irish South and East Fish Producers Organisation; and Mr. Ted Breslin from the Killybegs Fishermens Organisation. We also have from the Marine Institute, Dr. Peter Heffernan, chief executive, and Dr. Paul Connolly, director fisheries science services. All are very welcome to the committee meeting.

I will call on the delegation to make presentations. First I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but that same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call Mr. Flynn from the Federation of Irish Fisherman to make his presentation. Afterwards, I will call on Dr. Heffernan to make his presentation.

Mr. Gerard O’Flynn

I thank the chairman for the invitation to appear before the committee. From an industry perspective we are very much into the business time of the year, with the annual negotiations of tax and quotas due to take place from 17 December in Brussels. That is the main focus of our business today. I will briefly discuss tax and quotas. We have several key concerns as we enter these discussions which may impact on the Irish fishing industry.

Earlier this year the Government sanctioned a decommissioning or scrappage scheme for fishing vessels. The driving purpose behind the scheme was to restore some balance and address the recognised over-capacity in the fishing fleet in terms of the available quotas. The proposal to cut key quotas is now of major concern. In many ways it undermines the whole approach to the decommissioning scheme, which is also a major concern. I do not propose to list the stocks due to be cut, but I will highlight some of them. A key stock in this regard is prawns or nephrops. The quota is due to be cut, not based on scientific reasoning, but because of a peculiar rule known as averaging, which relates to the total amount of the species caught over a set number of years. I highlight that we are especially concerned about cuts to the quota for prawns or nephrops. We are equally concerned about proposed cuts in the quota for monk, which is a key Irish fishery, and about cuts in north-west herring. I provided the committee with a summary of the proposed cuts and I do not propose to go into any further detail at this point.

Another issue which will arise at the December Council meeting is the procedure or protocol known as the Hague preferences. These were introduced in 1976 and the intention was to recognise the under-developed state of the Irish industry and provide a mechanism to give Ireland additional quota. The problem with the Hague preferences is that they arise in negotiations every year but are not enshrined in law. We are especially concerned that they will come up for discussion again this year and this is a distraction. If they are not allocated, there will be unbelievable implications for our quotas. I highlight the importance of the Hague preferences, our view that they should be enshrined in law at this stage and the difficulty posed by the fact that they are up for negotiation annually.

The European Commission introduced proposals to prohibit fishing for key white stocks in cod and haddock off the north-west coast very late in the year. It proposes a complete ban on fishing off the north-west coast in what is known as area 6. Aside from our fears and concerns about the gravity of the proposal, it defies logic that the Commission, given its stated policy including a commitment to negotiation and consultation with stakeholders, announced the proposal in November. It is ironic that industry representatives received word of the proposal before the Irish authorities. The Commission has been very deficient in the manner in which it has proposed the ban. It is of critical importance to Ireland that this very late proposal is overturned. We will highlight this point to the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Tony Killeen, and we have already done so in advance of the talks.

That is a broad overview of our concerns as the talks in December approach. In summary we have concerns surrounding the Hague preferences, the ban on fishing off the north-west coast, cuts in key stocks such as prawns which are not based on scientific advice, and cuts in monk and herring quotas.

I will now refer to a number of other issues that impact on the fishing industry. I wish to raise the issue of the Lisbon treaty. Ireland has benefitted from EU membership but Europe has not been good for the fishing industry. In the lead-up to the Lisbon treaty there was a natural reaction from the industry that this was an opportunity to register a protest vote. The committee should consider that there was a strong vote in coastal communities, led by fishermen, on the Lisbon treaty. However the Government decides to address this matter in the future, it is incumbent that it addresses some concerns raised by the industry on its relationship with the European Community, in particular key issues that impact on policy, decisions on quotas, the historic disadvantage that Ireland has suffered and the Hague preferences.

When a multiplier is done from the core fishing community, their extended families and the general public, it can be seen that the impact of the industry — which is small in number — was significant in the vote, and in the lead-up to addressing the Lisbon treaty in the future, it is something of which the Government should be cognisant.

During this year the roll-out of a fishing vessel decommissioning or scrappage scheme took place. It was put in place to give people the opportunity to exit the industry with some dignity. The driver behind the scheme was the recognition that there is excess capacity in fishing capability compared to available quotas all over Europe. We will lobby, and seek the support of the committee, to ensure further elements of the decommissioning scheme are rolled out in 2009. Vessels are divided into categories, those over and under 18 m, and there is a strong demand for qualification from vessels under 18 m. The scheme should also be extended to include vessels over 18 m. The basis of the decommissioning scheme has been undermined because quotas are due to be cut again, which is of significant concern.

We highlighted previously the need for administrative sanctions to deal with minor fishery offences and we continue to call on the committee to support this. It is a common approach used in most European countries. A recent report on control and enforcement by the European Commission referred to the need to use administrative sanctions. If we are to have a Common Fisheries Policy we must have commonality on all issues and I urge the committee to do what it can to bring about the immediate introduction of administrative sanctions. They are to be used to deal with minor fishing offences and the current legislation should be used to introduce them.

The Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority has been subject to much comment and criticism since its introduction. The industry had a difficult period in establishing a working relationship with the SFPA. It engages with us; many of the difficulties which arose have been addressed and we look forward to developing a positive relationship with the SFPA. The initial period was difficult and there was much unnecessary tension between the authority and the industry.

The fuel crisis reached a peak in 2008 and prices have dropped dramatically in recent weeks and months. Fuel was the straw that broke the camel's back for the industry, because there were many issues that bubbled under the surface and when the fuel crisis hit, it provoked a strong reaction from the industry. Europe reacted quickly and we lobbied with European colleagues for Europe to introduce emergency legislation. Regulation 744 of 2008, which sought to institute specific actions to promote the restructuring of fishing fleets in Europe, was introduced by the Commission. However, this regulation has not yet been implemented in Ireland and we call on this committee and the Minister to use their influence and ensure the requirements and recommendations of the regulation are implemented as soon as possible. The regulation makes provision for further restructuring and measures to introduce fuel efficiencies. We must be cautious not to neglect the potential of the fuel crisis. Prices have dropped but we may still hit another spike; nobody can guess where fuel prices will go. It is important that this regulation is implemented as soon as possible. The credit crunch is also affecting the industry.

Another issue concerns the Department of Transport's marine survey office and a new regulation concerning safety of vessels between 15 m and 24 m in length. This regulation will be introduced over a three-year period and vessels up to ten years old were tested in October this year. Out of the 30 vessels which underwent the process, five were given a clean bill of health and 25 were given temporary certificates. We are confident that the 25 vessels will be fully qualified in due course; there are resource issues concerning specific drawings and stability records. Our concern is that this is a significant cost-driver which will impose larger costs on older vessels. Vessels up to 20 years old are due to be tested in 2009 and older vessels by 2010. The vessels were built to specific standards.

We do not wish to undermine the need for the highest safety standards at sea but there must a recognition that this is a significant cost-driver and the economics of it may make it prohibitive for vessel owners to reach the requisite standard. We are committed to safety but it is a further demand at a very difficult time.

I hope I have not spoken for too long and have touched on the main issues. We are involved in important negotiations in Europe on tackling quotas. I thank the Chairman for his time and for the attention of the committee.

I thank Mr. Flynn for his opening statement.

Dr. Peter Heffernan

For the assistance of the committee there are slide overview materials. I welcome queries as the presentation is in progress. I will give a general overview of the Marine Institute and Dr. Paul Connolly will then deal with the specifics of the fisheries science work we undertake.

The broad functions of the Marine Institute relate to the totality of the marine resource and the research effort the State can invest in generating environmentally sustainable development. We provide scientific services and undertake a great deal of research which is funded competitively. We fund research on the fisheries, and other, sectors in Ireland, harnessing the capacity of the university sector. We provide strategic advice and strategy development on the direction of science. In the context of European maritime policy I am pleased to inform the committee that Ireland's approach to developing a science strategy for the marine resource has been adapted by the EU in its approach to the publication of the integrated science plan for Europe this June. It reflects the fact that Ireland takes a market lead in guiding science. I will not delve into the structures of the Marine Institute.

In regard to the seafood industry, we would undertake the food safety services for Government, the environmental monitoring associated with the marine resource and the specific work on fish stocks which will be pertinent to today's discussion. As recently as the mid-1990s, Ireland had a total capacity to view and study its marine resource that was one thirtieth to one fortieth of the daily, weekly, monthly and annual activity of the EU in the Irish marine territory. The quantum of science done in the Irish marine area was one thirtieth to one fortieth of the total effort in 1996. That has been transformed dramatically under the tenure of the Marine Institute where, now equipped with two national research vessels and increased infrastructure and investment, the order of magnitude is more of a 1:2 ratio. The scale and quantum of international science activity has not diminished one iota in that ten to 12-year period but the Irish science effort has increased dramatically.

During the course of the past decade the major infrastructure requirements to underpin science of the marine resource have been substantially improved. There is information in the slides for the committee on that issue. Ireland is seen as a leader in the world in having commissioned a seabed survey which is moving into the territorial coastal basin areas, with areas in Cork-Kerry, Sligo-Galway and off the coast of Dublin having been surveyed in the past year.

In the context of the size of the global marine businesses which our science services to Government have to span, the size of the global marine economy is in excess of €4.3 trillion. Up until the recent economic shocks, the vast bulk of those sectors had strong growth opportunities associated with them and strong growth trends which were analysed by the institute to inform our science strategy. That analysis of the global market economy has been used by the EU in its integrated maritime strategy. The size of the Irish marine sector is €3 billion by comparative terms which, in our opinion and despite the current economic difficulties and trends, leaves significant scope for growth across the marine businesses in Ireland to the inclusion of the seafood sector. The Cawley seafood strategy sets out opportunities in this regard.

The science effort under the general term of sea change has a particular focus on the industry needs in the seafood area and is very much built with the input and advice of all the stakeholders and the sectoral players in deciding on the focus of the investments to be made on fisheries related, aquaculture related, science and environmental studies. It is continually renewed and has independently evaluated the proposals that receive funding. My colleague will speak more specifically on those areas related to fisheries.

I hope that brief overview gives the committee a sense of the institute. I will be happy to take any questions but I do not wish to delay the time of the committee on the particular focus of today. I ask my colleague, Dr. Paul Connolly, to speak on the specific relationship of the science with fisheries.

Dr. Paul Connolly

I thank the Chairman and committee for inviting me to appear before the committee. In the handout members have received, I will start from the title, the fisheries resource. If they wish to refer to that page, I will follow through. There are five issues I wish to touch on: the state of the fisheries resource and a quick snapshot; the fishing opportunities for 2009, picking up on some of the points Mr. Gerard O'Flynn has made; some key issues for science and industry; the importance of research in our fisheries resources; and the overriding importance of working with industry.

In terms of the Marine Institute and its work, we produce a stock book every year which essentially answers two questions: how healthy are the fish stocks around our coast and how many fish can be removed from those stocks. Essentially this is the scientific advice and it dictates the fishing opportunities for the following year. It is a compendium of our scientific work over the year. At this time of the year we spend much time discussing each stock with industry and Government officials and positioning ourselves in terms of the negotiations for next year.

The next page deals with the status of the fisheries resource — a snapshot. I would not have the time to go through all the stocks. However, I have picked out some of the key stocks that will drive fishing opportunities for 2009. For the west of Scotland, the scientific advice for cod, whiting and haddock is zero catches. In the Irish Sea cod is in a very severe state of depletion. In the Celtic Sea area we are concerned about the cod stock but we are not as worried about the cod stock in the Celtic Sea as we are about the Irish Sea and west of Scotland. There is some good news here. The science has assessed the mackerel stock where there is a 30% increase this year. A very important point is the prawns, the nephrops. These are really important stocks to the Irish fleet. The science is good on these stocks. We think they are exploited sustainably, yet the Commission is reducing the quota by 15%. We are working very hard and making a case with Government officials to put to the Commission to try to keep the prawn stocks at status quo.

The next set of tables lists the details of the science — the red and green column in the middle — and the fisheries opportunities for 2009, shown in the final column. I do not ask members to read them all but that is the information we have to hand. I wish to pick up on some of the key points that we will work on between now and Christmas. The next page deals with sharks, skates and rays. This is a very important point because for spurdog, the advice is for zero catch. We are working hard to build a case on the sharks, skates and rays that some fishing should be allowed. For instance, for skates and rays would it be feasible to have a separate quota in the Irish Sea or have the whole quota over the entire waters around Ireland? We are working with industry on this to come up with a proposal to send to the Commission.

On the next slide, on demersal stocks, I would pick out haddock, which is an important stock for the fisheries on the south coast and in the Irish Sea. There is a new proposal from the Commission to set up a new area in the Irish Sea. We are working on whether this would be beneficial for Ireland in the long term in the context of fishing opportunities or whether it would be a hindrance. That is the type of analysis we are doing with the scientific data to see how Ireland Inc. would come off in terms of these Commission proposals.

The next slide gives more detail on the stocks. The next page deals with the prawn stock. Members will see that a 15% cut is proposed for area 7 for the prawn stock. It is a really important fishery to the Irish fleet and again we are devoting a good deal of time with Government officials to building a case to have a status quo total allowable catch, TAC, for next year.

I would like to step back and talk about some of the key issues facing science and the fishing industry. I will read through the bullet points. It is important we improve the data that scientists use in stock assessments. To do that we need to work closely with industry. We need to reduce discarding, fishing pressure on many stocks and the impact of fishing on sensitive areas. We need to look at closed areas, the possibility of increased mesh sizes and use the knowledge fishermen have to bring it into the science process. This has been a failure of the scientific process and it is where we need to work much more closely with industry.

The reform agenda, the Common Fisheries Policy, is up for review. That process starts next year and is due to be completed in 2012. We need to be ready for these reforms and have our ideas together.

Another important point is climate change. We must work hard in terms of research to determine the impacts of climate change on fisheries.

On the next page, the fourth area I want to deal with is research. Research is vitally important in terms of developing the scientific advice. The national development plan programme of the Marine Institute has invested considerably in fisheries research programmes. A total of 24.4% of the funding in 2007 went to fisheries, seafood processing, aquaculture and seaweed projects.

It is important that we get the research done that advances our scientific assessments to allow us give better advice that will ensure fishermen are a part of that scientific advice, they understand the advice, the scientists understand the fishermen and there is much more engagement between the two. We have not done as well as we should in engaging with fishermen in the past.

The next page deals with functional ingredients. This is what I would call very long-term research. Noel Cawley of the Cawley Group said this is one of the most important areas of research for Ireland in terms of the seafood industry. It examines compounds we take from the marine that can be used to enhance food products. I am thinking of Benecol and reducing cholesterol. There could be other compounds in sea creatures that we can examine and introduce into seafood processing that will increase the value of the food and make it a much more healthy option. It is long-term but very important research.

I wish to refer briefly to working with industry. During the fuel crisis the Minister set up the Irish Fisheries Science Research Partnership after that long meeting in Athlone. It met in August and we have had various sub-groups working off it but I want to focus on two sub-groups. One is a group where science and industry came together. We examined the fish stocks on which the scientists had one view and the industry had another and identified where there was conflict in those views. We have agreed to work together to try to resolve those contracts. I am not saying we will resolve them but at least we have identified issues on which we can work together. A good example of that is the issue with Celtic Sea cod.

The other sub-group, which meets tomorrow, is dealing with the issue of tacit knowledge, the knowledge fishermen have and how we can use that in the scientific process. We will not see those results today or tomorrow. It is a more long-term but very important project.

To turn to the next page, working with industry is also seen in the regional advisory councils and working with the Federation of Irish Fishermen, FIF, at a national level. An example of where we have been working with it is on developing management plans for mackerel, which is done in an international context, and Celtic Sea herring, which is done in a national context.

I hope we have presented members with an overview of the Marine Institute, the broad marine services it provides, a snapshot of the fisheries resource and the key stocks that are dictating fishing opportunities. I have listed a table with those fishing opportunities, and the details are on that for members to see. They list the key issues for science and industry, the importance of research and that the key to our future is science working with industry. I thank members for their attention.

I thank Mr. Connolly. I call Deputy Creed.

I welcome our colleagues from the Marine Institute, the representatives from the federation and their members and colleagues in the Gallery. This is, undoubtedly, a challenging time for those in the fishing industry. The year 2008 will go down as one of the most difficult, and we are facing into significant challenges at the December Ministerial Council in terms of quota. This committee is anxious to assist the State effort to secure the best possible deal. Next week, there will be statements in the Dáil in advance of the December Council and we will use that occasion to put forward the strongest case possible for the Minister in what will be difficult negotiations.

I acknowledge the point made by Gerard O'Flynn in the context of the Lisbon treaty, which is timely. The flip side of that, in the context of next year, is whether it will happen again. The review of the Common Fisheries Policy and how we interact with other member states to secure a better deal will be a challenge politically for anybody in terms of securing a greater share of stocks for the Irish fishing industry.

I acknowledge the significant "No" vote in coastal communities as something on which we must work. In terms of the European issue, it is no longer feasible for politicians to take all the credit if something favourable comes from Europe while kicking Europe, so to speak, if there is a down side. We must look at the bigger picture but I will not go into that now.

One of the areas up for negotiation in December is the closure of Area 6, which has come as a bolt out of the blue and is a serious issue for the industry. My understanding is that a consultation process was supposed to have taken place. I am aware the Marine Institute feeds its scientific data into the Department but the State feeds it into a European analysis. However, my understanding was that if a measure such as this one, which is so profound and devastating for those whose livelihoods are involved, was to be considered, there would have been a lead-in notice of months but it was the industry that brought this proposal to the attention of the State. That is unacceptable and it gives us very little time to address what are very serious issues that have gained considerable momentum before negotiations start. I do not know whether the Marine Institute, the Department or somebody in Brussels is trying to pull a fast one on us but of all the issues it has the most serious consequences for the industry.

I would like to know about the consequences from the federation representatives. I have some idea of those because I have had some consultation with individuals on this issue but I would like to have on the record of the committee the consequences if that proposal were to be a reality. I would like to know from the Marine Institute representatives when this issue came to their attention and what their views are on the scientific merit or otherwise of it.

I note the comments made about the administrative sanction versus the criminal sanction issue. It has been well documented in this committee that the view of the Commission on this is that we were excessive in the legislation in using criminal sanctions against fishermen for minor offences. I would like to know from the federation if, in the intervening period since we last discussed this matter, progress has been made. I am aware we will take legal advice on this matter in due course but I would like to know whether there is any indication at a political level of a willingness to engage on this issue, to change and to bring it in line with our European counterparts on what is an emotive issue for thousands of fishermen and their families who fear having a criminal record, and all of the adverse consequences that go with that. Has any progress been made on that matter?

I welcome the comments made by the Marine Institute about working with industry because from my time in this portfolio the view I get is that there is a "them and us" approach. Perhaps some progress has been made in that regard arising from the Athlone meeting, and I acknowledge what the representatives have said in their submission in that regard, but at best it appears there is a time lag factor in terms of flagging issues that those in the industry face on a daily basis. They would say that by the time the institute carries out its research, collates the data and publishes its findings, matters have moved on in that the stocks may have replenished. That issue needs to be addressed. The issue of the institute working closer with the industry might be a way of addressing it.

Fishermen are on boats 24-seven, almost 365 days of the year, while the institute has only two research boats. Fishermen may well have more up to date data. Is there a way of using that resource to constantly update and reappraise the institute's analysis of stock levels? I do not know the institute's modus operandi, but by the time it completes research on a particular stock to inform policy on quota, etc., and publishes its findings, would the stock levels have changed significantly? I do not know the timelag required to allow a stock to replenish itself to a level that it is fair game for the setting of an increased quota. From talking to those involved in the industry, there appears to be an issue in that respect. Can the institute bring its modus operandi more in line with the industry’s local knowledge to enable us to get a more up-to-date position on stock levels?

In the context of the difficult challenges that face the industry and the Minister, we will do everything possible to assist the Minister in making a case for the industry at the December Council. We wish the industry every success in what has been a difficult year.

I welcome the representatives and thank them for the presentation. I am aware of the depressed state of the fishing industry in many areas. I am also very much aware of the concerns of coastal communities, particularly in the context of a declining economy, where there is no replacement industry, and the effect of that on rural Ireland. I am annoyed about the circumstances surrounding the proposals for the decommissioning scheme and how it was argued at the time that it would be beneficial to those surviving in the industry. Now quotas may be cut, which would defeat the purpose of the scheme, of which I was not in favour. I made it known publicly at the time that I opposed it and thought it was a step backwards for people to leave the industry and for those people not be replaced. I found that difficult to handle. However, other organisations thought differently, as is their prerogative.

Dr. Connolly referred to cuts in various sectors, including that of the quota for prawns. That stock level is not under threat and there is no logical reason for a cut in the quota. Other people are making decisions for the industry that effect people's livelihoods which, effectively, is making the position worse. In regard to the knock-on effect of the Hague Preferences, if they were adopted and operable, they would be of huge benefit in terms of quota to the Irish fishing, which is operating at a huge disadvantage because of mistakes in the past.

I am pleased and relieved to hear there is commitment to a co-ordinated approach or, at least, a recognition of the industry participating with the Marine Institute in regard to the scientific service. To have disregarded for so long the input of people involved in the industry, who have first-hand knowledge of it, for the purposes of contributing information for conservation purposes was a great mistake and has resulted in a deficit of such information. From my experience of being involved in the fishing industry, in oyster fishing in Tralee Bay in particular, it was fishermen who brought about the conservation of the Tralee Bay fisheries while working with others, but the input of the fishermen was crucial.

This illustrates the point I am making, namely, that people involved in the economic sector want to preserve their livelihood and so forth. It is essential, therefore, that they have an input. I welcome that approach and look forward to observing how it works as we move forward.

The proposed ban in respect of the north west was decided without consulting those in the industry. A fait accompli was presented. Decisions taken by bureaucrats from outside of the State are determining the livelihood and future of people engaged in the industry.

I must suspend the meeting as a vote has been called in the Dáil Chamber. We will resume following the vote. My apologies to the representatives for the short suspension.

Sitting suspended at 11.55 a.m. and resumed at 12.20 p.m.

We will recommence the meeting. I call on Deputy Ferris to continue.

With regard to the Lisbon treaty, I concur that the people who have been most affected by the European project from the start have been the fishermen. That is understandable. I also concur that if there was a decent quota system for fishermen and a proactive means of building an economy in our coastal communities, it would be most beneficial and could have a different effect.

We mentioned the decommissioning scheme. Mr. O'Flynn referred in his presentation to the commonality in other member states regarding the implementation of administrative sanctions. This was argued and debated in this body and almost unanimously the committee was in favour of administrative sanctions rather than pursuing criminal sanctions in the fishing sector. Unfortunately, it was not carried in the vote. Has Mr. O'Flynn any indication that there is a commitment forthcoming from the Department to revisit that situation and come forward with administrative sanctions for minor offences, instead of what is currently in place?

There was also a reference to the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority and establishing a working relationship with it. It was said that the authority was engaging more positively with the industry. In my opinion, that is not the case. I was told only three weeks ago that in one instance there were 15 sea fishing protection authority members involved in an area where there was only one boat. That is a form of intimidation, no matter what way one looks at it. I do not believe it is the correct way to approach this. Nobody will defend illegality in the fishing sector but fishermen and their communities have rights. The Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority should be cognisant of that when it is dealing with people. Ultimately, it is dealing with people who are trying to make a decent living and who, when they come to the harbour or pier after three or four days at sea in difficult weather conditions, find themselves facing that situation. It is unacceptable.

With regard to the fuel costs issue, the price of a barrel of oil is down to less than $50. It was $148 a barrel. When the price was this low previously, from a commercial point of view for car drivers and so forth, the price of fuel was 85 cent to 89 cent per litre. However, we are now paying 103 cent or 105 cent, despite the price of the barrel being lower. Something is causing this and we must get to the bottom of it. How can this multinational sector raise the price of oil and keep it at a higher price than it was three years ago? It is worse for commercial fishermen and people in the farming sector who are trying to make a living.

The code of practice is a huge issue. In the case of older boats huge money is required to bring them up to standard. People have been fishing for perhaps 25 or 30 years on these boats. These are not of the required safety standard. In fairness to the industry, it has always said it wanted those boats brought up to standard, but people need time and support to bring their boats up to the required safety standard. It is a huge outlay. In the case of one boat in Cromone it will cost over €1 million to bring it up to standard. Who can get their hands on €1 million to do that? It is ridiculous.

I have a question for the representatives of the Marine Institute. How does the institute propose to facilitate a harmonised approach between the marine sector and the industry? As well as having a co-ordinated approach, it will also build goodwill with the industry. The institute must bear in mind that fishermen are at the coal face trying to make a living. They are fishing in sectors and moving from one area to another according to the type of fishing they are doing. They are the best people to talk to because they are talking about their future. It is not a hit and miss approach — there was a reference to one in 30 or one in 40 in 1996 in the institute's presentation regarding the effects of fishing. It is not just a small sector. These people are at sea every day trying to make a living. They will not go out to sea and totally destroy the industry. That would kill their future and the future for their family members who will continue after them.

I welcome the fact that the two sectors will work together. The institute must be open-minded about the industry and be cognisant of people whose livelihood is at stake. I am sure there will be a good working relationship. They are sitting together here today and that is a good start.

I thank the Chairman and the members for arranging this important debate today. I have been seeking this debate for some time and am glad it has been facilitated. I welcome our visitors. The Marine Institute is doing an exceptionally good job. As a nation we should be proud of its work. I am encouraged by the fact that the institute is interacting regularly with the fishing industry. That is essential for the future.

I am concerned that, for example, in the case of the reduction in prawns proposed by Europe, the institute's scientific data and analysis tend to indicate that it is not necessary at present. In the negotiations in Brussels next month the institute's science will be an important support for Mr. O'Flynn and the fishermen. It would be a different kettle of fish if the institute's science stated that a reduction was required. It is critically important that in future fishermen work with scientists, although I know there can be times when differences occur. We are all wearing the Irish jersey, however, and I am encouraged by that fact.

I have interests in aquaculture, including AZA toxins and other problems down the road. I will not go into that today but it deserves another debate. Perhaps we will debate it with the scientists in February because there are issues of major concern, including the jobs involved. I do not want to muddy the waters on this issue today, however.

I have concerns about the Hague preference. While I will not go over issues that have already been mentioned, I will refer to a couple of matters to which the FIF might respond. On a number of occasions I have asked why the fishing industry is not involved in pay negotiations. Farmers are so involved and I think fishermen should be also. Why has that never been achieved by that industry? It would provide extra leverage at the negotiating table so it should be done.

We must also deal with the additional mackerel quota. I know that a meeting is scheduled with the Minister, but I feel strongly that the polyvalent fleet should get a fair percentage of that increase, which is welcome. We must face the fact that 12 years ago there were 12 processing plants in the southern area, but only four are left and they are barely surviving. They are in Union Hall, Castletownbere, Dingle and Rossaveal. Extra quota must be obtained for the future security of those processing jobs. It is essential for us to support that sector's plight. From time to time the argument is used that when the mackerel quota dropped the club of 23 went down, but the number of boats that took up the 7,000-tonne figure has increased substantially. Originally there were only a few but the number has since increased for various reasons, including the under 65s. If there is not a 50% fair allocation between the north west and the south west we will have major problems, including job losses.

I am concerned about the bilateral fishing agreement with Norway. What benefits, if any, will that bring for Irish fishermen? The Norwegians constitute a powerful fishing nation, which is outside the European Union, but will Ireland lose out because of those negotiations? A message should be sent to the Minister to be mindful of that matter. Sometimes these matters are slipped through at European talks and a year or two later the fishing industry discovers that the Norwegians are getting part of our mackerel quota. I am worried about that quota and we should be careful to protect it.

One other point probably concerns the Marine Institute. Every year, the Minister and the fishing industry's representatives go to Brussels for the annual review of the total allowable catch, TAC, and quotas. It is like a day at the races, trying to fight for so much quota, but if scientists can predict certainty for some species, why can we not have two-year or three-year quotas? The annual quota system is like Santa Claus, with fishermen asking "What'll we get at Christmas for cod, haddock or herring?" and "Will certain sectors close?" The system is very uncertain for many fishermen who have borrowed money.

I thank the Chairman for announcing that Dr. Gerard Hogan, a leading constitutional expert, will attend this committee next Wednesday. He will advise the committee on administrative sanctions, which is something I felt strongly about during the passage of the fisheries Bill. We succeeded in some areas, but the legislation failed in that area. We cannot presume what Dr. Hogan will say next week, but if administrative sanctions cannot be achieved under our law or Constitution, it could possibly be done under the terms of an EU directive. I have explored this matter and I will let the expert decide on it next week. Three or four years ago in Kenmare, Commissioner Borg told us that the Irish system was unique among 27 in Europe. That does not add up for me. As Deputy Ferris said, we are suffering in one sense because Ireland is a member of the EU. There is no doubt that coastal communities reacted negatively to the Lisbon treaty referendum because of the way they have been treated historically. We cannot rewrite the original accession treaty of 1973, but several things have not been delivered, including a fuel package that was promised.

I ask the Chairman to convey our deep concern about the mackerel situation. I will not go into greater detail but the polyvalent section must get its fair share, otherwise we will have job losses. Under decommissioning the polyvalent sector has suffered greatly, with those boats being taken out of the system. Perhaps the witnesses can tell us how many such boats have been taken out of the Irish south-west and south-east regions during the last two rounds of decommissioning. It is grand to decommission boats but when that was put to us under the Cawley report, it was presumed there would be extra fish for the remaining boats. That does not seem to be happening, however, and I am very concerned about it.

I welcome to the committee the representatives of the Federation of Irish Fishermen and the Marine Institute. I thank them for outlining the current situation. There is much information to digest and it will take time for the ordinary layman to do so. When decommissioning was introduced, I understood that it would mean the introduction of more quota for the remaining boats. Looking at the European Commission's proposals, however, I see a lot of minuses down the sheet. There is only one plus factor, which is the mackerel quota. Therefore, I cannot see what decommissioning has achieved to date. Where are the positive factors for the industry? I cannot see them in the figures before us, unless someone can explain them.

A fair distribution of the mackerel quota is important for the polyvalent fleet. We have not dealt with the important value-added side of the fishing industry fairly. Only four processing factories are left in the south, which depend on fish that are landed there to keep them going. They are important for the maintenance of employment in areas which cannot attract industries other than those related to fishing, so additional mackerel quota is hugely important from that perspective. A decision will be made eventually and we look forward to it being fair, with common sense prevailing.

The question of administrative sanctions has been bandied about for a long time and we are informed that the Constitution has a bearing on what will happen in that regard. How is it possible to have a Common Fisheries Policy if there is not a level playing field and if the relevant sanctions do not apply across the board to Irish fishermen and their European counterparts?

This matter will have to be addressed sooner rather than later. It is time we took action. What we are discussing is not rocket science. If a change is required in respect of the Constitution, then so be it. As Senator O'Donovan stated, an expert in the field is due to come before the committee and we will be obliged to listen to what he has to say. I do not believe we can wait forever for these changes, particularly in light of the fact that they are of major importance to fishermen who are trying to make a living in extremely difficult circumstances.

If one message goes out from this meeting, it should be that every sector, regardless of its position, is important. All sectors must work together. There is no point in different sectors in the industry pulling against each other. While the position in this regard might be improving, the problem still exists. We will not obtain the best results for the industry until all sectors begin working together. It is extremely important that the sectors operate as a unit. I do not wish to make comparisons but the IFA, which represents the farming bodies, ensures that the various sectors in agriculture work as a unit. It may be difficult but we must endeavour to ensure that the various sectors in the fishing industry work together.

I wish to put a question to the representatives from the Marine Institute. Fishermen indicated up to four or five years ago that there is no real difficulty with stocks of herring in the Celtic Sea. However, it took the Department five years to produce scientific evidence in respect of this matter. Why was there such a delay?

I welcome the representatives from the Federation of Irish Fishermen. Those who spoke outlined in no uncertain fashion that there is a need for a comprehensive examination of the fishing industry, particularly if it is going to survive.

The EU Commission's proposals for the 2009 quota, as issued to the federation on 23 November, indicate that only the quota relating to mackerel will be increased — by some 33% — while the quota relating to the other 24 listed species will be reduced. When the decommissioning scheme was introduced, we were led to believe that there would be additional quota for those boats that were left. Now, however, the European Union is proposing that only the quota relating to mackerel be increased and that all others be reduced.

It is also stated in the Commission's proposals that the quota relating to blue whiting could, depending on negotiations between the EU and Norway, be reduced by 80% or more. Norway is not a member of the Union and I do not understand how it could have an influence over the latter's decisions. The position is ridiculous. Norway was a member of the European Union but it bailed out of it early on for its own benefit. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food must oppose the proposed reduction to which I refer at EU level.

The Hague preference, which was established in 1976, recognises the underdeveloped state of the Irish fishing industry. When applied annually to the establishment of total allowable catch, this preference gives Ireland an additional quota. Unfortunately, however, the Hague preference is subject to annual negotiations. Why is that the case? This preference, as it relates to the fishing industry here, should be a permanent fixture. Apart from Britain, Ireland is the only other EU member state that is surrounded by water. The Minister must fight tooth and nail to ensure that the Hague preference, as it relates to Ireland, is maintained.

Reference was made to the ban on catching whitefish off the north-west coast. This will have serious repercussions for those who depend on catching such fish to make a living.

The most ridiculous development is the reduction in the prawn quota by some 15%. Research carried out by our fisheries research vessels indicates that stocks are in very good condition. The cuts in this regard are based on a rule that relates to recent average catches. According to the Federation of Irish Fishermen, this is a bizarre proposal that must be resisted by the Minister. Common sense must prevail. If prawn stocks in the waters around Ireland are in good condition, why are reductions being imposed? The rule relating to recent average catches has no bearing on the conditions of stocks.

The debate on the Lisbon treaty correctly highlighted the overall benefits of European Union membership for Ireland's economy. However, it provoked considerable discussion among those in the fishing industry, with strong views being expressed to the effect that the Irish fishing sector had been gravely damaged by the failure of the EU's fisheries policy. Nothing has been done to correct the imbalance that exists in respect of the Irish fishing industry. The Minister must fight to ensure that it is corrected. The Federation of Irish Fishermen recommends that in the lead up to any possible future referendum, the Government should adopt a more proactive stance in respect of both the fishing industry and the relevant EU institutions in order to achieve significant reforms in the short term. The sooner the Minister realises this, the better. I wish to inform the representatives from the Marine Institute that pious words will butter no bread for Irish fishermen. Common sense must prevail in order that we might obtain our rightful share of a quota that was taken from us during the negotiations relating to our entry to the then EEC.

As already stated, the decommissioning scheme was supposed to be the cure for all ills. It was supposed to provide additional tonnage and quota to the remaining boats in the industry. However, it has done nothing whatsoever in that regard. As the table contained in the federation's presentation shows, only the quota for mackerel will be increased while those relating to the 24 other listed species will be reduced.

The question of administrative sanctions was the subject of heated debate in the Dáil at this time last year and also in January last. The issue was put to a vote in the House and we were voted down. The Fine Gael motion to abolish the criminalisation of Irish fishermen and replace the provision with administrative sanctions was voted down.

It should be noted that the recent EU proposal on control and enforcement includes the provision for administrative sanctions on a harmonised basis throughout Europe. What further advice does the Government need? It has been told by Europe to abolish the criminalisation of our fishermen and replace it with administrative sanctions. However, for some unknown reason the Government has turned a blind eye to this, which has left the fishing industry in a sad situation. It is a serious accusation against Government representatives at this meeting that they have not forced the Government to end the criminalisation of our Irish skippers and embrace the European law requiring they impose administrative sanctions. This could be achieved by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food with the stroke of a pen.

The newly established Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority supposedly has a working relationship with the industry. When this authority was established, it put almost 20 fishery inspectors in Castletownbere to inspect every Irish fishing boat along the south-west coast, but the inspectors never checked the landings of the Spanish or French trawlers. Those trawlers can land fish at any time of the day or night, but they are never molested by our fishery protection officers.

I ask the Deputy to give his colleagues time to speak. He has been almost ten minutes speaking. People want the meeting to conclude by 1 p.m.

The Federation of Irish Fishermen has asked that every effort be made to ensure EU Regulation 744 (2008), the emergency aid regulation, be implemented immediately with regard to the specific actions required to promote the restructuring of fishing fleets affected by the economic crisis. Surely, when Europe calls on the Irish Government to introduce that regulation, it should do so. Is the appeal falling on deaf ears? The Government has done nothing to implement the regulation.

There is an old saying that a rising tide raises all boats. The tide in Castletownbere and Schull is rising and falling, but the boats are tied to the pier and are not allowed out to fish. They are tied to the pier waiting for quotas. This is a sad reflection on the Government and I call on the Minister to heed what we are saying before it is too late.

I will be as brief as I can with my observations. I was not long in the House before the former Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food appeared at this committee. Perhaps I asked a naive question, but I asked her whether she had ever sought an increase in quota from Europe. The response I got came in the form of a put-down remark more or less saying I did not know what I was talking about. However, I see on page 2 of the document we have here that 22 out of the 25 species are proposed for quota reductions and only three are increased. I thought the question I put was straightforward.

On the question of the banning of white fish fishing in area 6, Mr. O'Flynn mentioned there was poor scientific data. Does the Marine Institute have the scientific data necessary to fight this ban in Europe in December? We were given a summary of what the Marine Institute does, but what will it do in Europe at the talks in December and what will it do between now and then? We hear comments about long-term management plans and reducing the discarding of fish. Discarding is supposed to be a conservation measure, but I believe it is immoral and wrong. It is supposed to promote conservation, but a fish is not much good when it is dead and being thrown back in the water. In the south and south east area, where the cod is healthy and there is a significant amount of it, it is because the cod season is closed during the spawning season. Is that correct and would a similar measure be an alternative in area 6 rather than a blanket closure?

To date, decommissioning does not appear to be working with regard to boats over 18 m. If the proposals on quota come in, decommissioning will have to be introduced for boats under 18 m also. It is strange how these things happen. For example, our quota is reduced and we introduce decommissioning. Now that the quota for another 22 of the 25 species listed is being reduced, we must look at further decommissioning. How long can we continue decommissioning before fishermen are put out of business? This is a redundancy package. There is no incentive whatsoever in it for our fishermen to go out and make a living. Many of the fishermen I know do not want to do anything else. They know nothing else. Fishing is in their blood, but they are being put out of the water.

I would like to think this committee had some part to play in the more acceptable approach of the Sea Fisheries Protection Authority towards fishermen and towards implementing the regulations. I compliment fishing organisations who had much to do with this, but I think the committee had a small input.

A code of conduct and safety is important. Over recent years people from my area and others have been lost at sea. I support the highest possible safety standards and a proper code of conduct. In Cromane, the fishing area closest to me, I have seen mussel dredgers for which the fishermen cannot get licences. As a result, the fishermen were renting replica boats from the North of Ireland while their own boats were tied up. They did not get to dredge this year, because it was too late. That leads me on to my last question. I might be out of bounds——

Is the slipway built?

——but I must ask the question. Europe provided €5 million for surveys to be undertaken on the ecosystems in special areas of conservation such as Cromane. Were these surveys undertaken under the auspices of this Department or under the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government? I presume the Marine Institute would carry out the surveys. This €5 million was returned to Europe because the job was not done and this is not like us as a country.

I cannot understand why it is the case that Cork Airport is the busiest fish port in the country. We are importing a phenomenal number of tonnes of fish. Senator O'Donovan quoted statistics to show that there used to be 12 processing plants in the south and south west and now only four remain. Why can we not invest the money in the natural resource and in these plants? We have to have the quota to have the fish but money should be invested in these plants to produce a value-added product and let Cork Airport be the busiest fish port but with exports of processed fish.

On the issue of mackerel, there will be a tug of war today. I hope it is not the heaviest team that wins that contest. I hope the small man fishing inside the 12-mile area will not be forgotten today.

Mr. Gerard O’Flynn

I will ask some of my colleagues to speak on this subject. Mr. Walsh wishes to make a couple of points on conservation and Mr. Lorcan Ó Cinnéide will pick up on a few other points.

Mr. Michael Walsh

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to make this presentation. I will try to be as brief as possible.

Points have been made about quotas being cut this year. Considering the state of the economy, I will put in context in monetary terms some of the species of fish being lost. I did some rough calculations so I hope the committee will not hold me to exact figures. In the case of monkfish in area seven, there has been a reduction of €700,000, and there has been a reduction of €4.4 million in prawns in area seven. On a rough calculation, between €12 million and €14 million worth of fish will be cut again this year. Some of this is on the basis of good scientific advice and some of it has no scientific assessment while some is on the basis of precautionary approaches taken. The normal trend is to cut, cut, cut. The decommissioning of fleets was referred to today. The fishing industry pursued a decommissioning scheme to reduce the size of our fleet to make it profitable for the boats that are left. However, every time we got anywhere near the target, the goalposts were changed. It is vitally important to know that it is the whitefish sector that will suffer the €12 million or €14 million cut. Somebody asked a question about area 6. We do not believe there was ever an economic impact assessment carried out on area 6.

Mr. Ó Cinnéide told me six or eight weeks ago that this was coming down the track and I heard it from a fisherman six weeks later. I rang the Department and they said they had no official information and had not heard anything. A week later there was a ban on fishing in area 6. This means there are people out of jobs and it means the north-west, which is an area dependent on fisheries, is gone and finished. It means extra effort deployed into the Celtic Sea, the area where we work. A question was asked about the closures and the measures in the Celtic Sea. From a fisherman's perspective, the Celtic Sea cod stock is the one that has been working. Fishermen see better signs of cod. The industry took a great deal of pain to put in place that 1,500 sq. mile closure. There was a big result from an Irish perspective last week. The Celtic Sea cod stock was to go into recovery measures that would have restricted the length of time the Irish fleet could spend fishing in the Celtic Sea. The targets set out for that stock to return to sustainable levels were so unrealistic from our point of view that it would have meant our fleet being reduced in the Celtic Sea down to about four to five times what it is at the moment. Thankfully, from an Irish perspective we managed, by wearing the green jersey, to keep this off the table for another year. However, the Commission has put a paragraph in the statement saying we have to come back to this again next year, that the stock is still in poor shape. The fishermen have been saying for six years that the cod are three or four times the size of what science thinks. We need to engage as an industry next year and we need every support to engage in real time science to get the proper assessments done on the cod, the Celtic Sea herring stock, the north-west herring stock, a number of stocks where the industry still believes there is a fishery there. We are out seven days a week, 365 days a year. We can see what is going on.

We welcome the industry-science partnership and we look forward to working with the Marine Institute tomorrow. To answer one of the Marine Institute's questions, it has engaged with us over some of the stocks and it is making its own case. I spoke to Dr. Connolly and he said they have been given a chance this year to look at some of the issues and to have a chance to present the case for Ireland. People should not lose sight of the context that any opportunity lost is gone and it is very difficult to ever get these opportunities back again.

Mr. Lorcan Ó Cinnéide

Members raised the issue of the Hague preferences. These were negotiated in view of the situation in 1976. We are advised that this year there will be a particular attack on them. They are a formula which takes fish off other people and gives it to us. If this attack were to be successful this year, we could see a reduction in our cod quota, for example, which is one of our most critical shortages, of more than 50%, not 25% or 15%. It is very important that across the board, the attack on the Hague preferences is resisted and, second, that it is taken as an integral part of the Common Fisheries Policy, rather than something we have to return to every year. We have had it every year since 1976 and we need to have that enshrined.

A direct question was asked about administrative sanctions. We have been told quite clearly that so far as the Minister and the Department are concerned, administrative sanctions are off the table. We have been much criticised for keeping them on the table ourselves and that is the factual situation. The committee will discuss this next week. We see this as having been applied in many other areas of regulation, the Environmental Protection Agency and in inland fisheries and other places. We believe the wrong question has been consistently put and we believe it is very important that this be continued. We ask the committee to note that the European Union, in putting forward proposals for harmonised control and enforcement throughout Europe, has stressed that this must be based on administrative sanctions. I do not understand why this cannot be done in Ireland and it beggars belief. Deputies and Senators will know that we have been at this for the past three years but to no effect. We have been told to drop it, something we are not prepared to do.

Mr. Walsh referred to the effects of the area 6 closure which is extremely negative in itself but also it represents a precedent. We are blue in the face from going to meetings all over Europe and in Ireland about issues such as this and getting nowhere much of the time. There is a process there and it has not been engaged in here. If they succeed in doing it in this case, not only will it have a direct effect but it will have a huge effect in terms of precedent. They could then do it to any fishery in any stock down the line. This is the reason it is absolutely critical.

Mr. Walsh is correct in how he described it. I heard about this proposal at a meeting. I telephoned the Department. It is a disrespect to our Government, apart from anybody else, that a proposal would be made by the European Commission and that the Government would have to hear about it from the likes of me. This is completely unacceptable. I am glad to know it but we would have been waiting until last week to get that proposal. It is symptomatic of the failure of the entire fishery system in the EU as it relates to us. It reflects considerable disrespect to this country as the principal country to be affected by it.

On mackerel distribution, every silver lining has a cloud. We have a 33% increase. A discussion is scheduled to commence at 1.30 p.m. Some of our IFPO members are on different sides of that equation. In this internal debate it is very important that each side has a fair chance to put its case forward and the justice of the cases involved should be heard by the Minister who should quickly decide what he will do. I will say no more about it. It is a matter for discussion later.

There are many other issues, but for the sake of time I will leave it at that.

Dr. Peter Heffernan

I take up a common theme, the stress the committee has put on the development of strong and lasting partnerships between fishermen and the scientists. I assure the committee that the respect of the Marine Institute for fishermen is very much there. I come from the west of Ireland and it is in my genes to have respect for the fishing industry. In any way we can to improve the speed with which science decisions can be made in Europe, Ireland will be to the forefront in advancing those cases. I alert the committee to the fact that we work within an international decision-making mechanism in the science arena. For our voice to have credibility in that science arena it must stand up very often to the opposite scrutiny and opposite viewpoints. However, there is progress and great benefit to be gained by Ireland through a seamless partnership between fishermen and the science agencies. We are committed to working to that effect.

Mr. Ted Breslin

I do not want to repeat what has already been said by representatives of the fishing sector. Deputy Creed asked how serious the Area 6 closure would be. It will effectively wipe out a number of small fishermen. If one looks at the map of Ireland, it is basically north of Killybegs to Greencastle. Those smaller vessels have nowhere else to go. They do not have large enough vessels to head south or out to Rockall. They are basically out of business.

There was much discussion about mackerel. We should not pre-empt the meeting at 1.30 p.m. Suffice it to say that there is much more to it than some of the speakers would lead one to believe. It is much more complex and complicated. We have a major interest in that. Jobs are being lost in Killybegs also and factories are being closed. As Mr. Ó Cinnéide says, there should be a full debate on the mackerel issue, so let it be discussed there.

I ask the Marine Institute to comment on the science behind the Area 6 closure as well as the notification and consultation process. I appreciate these gentlemen are under enormous time constraints and might need to leave. They do not necessarily need to delay for that response.

I have one naive question again. From reading this am I to believe no boat other than an Irish boat is permitted to fish inside the red line shown on the map?

Mr. Lorcan Ó Cinnéide

No.

The document states that an exclusive economic zone is an area not exceeding 200 miles in which coastal states have sovereign rights with respect to natural resources and certain economic activities.

I asked about the time lapse between the information we get from the fishermen — the people on the water — and the scientists giving the scientific analysis.

Dr. Peter Heffernan

I will ask my colleague to come in on that. On the exclusive economic zone, as the members of the committee know, under the Common Fisheries Policy, fisheries are considered as a European resource. The Common Fisheries Policy governs that.

I will answer a specific question on the Marine Institute. The Marine Institute was not in receipt of €5 million towards surveys. We have not been in the practice of returning money to the EU during any year of my tenure. I do not know what agency may have been involved, but it certainly was not the Marine Institute.

I will ask Dr. Connolly to update the committee on north-west science.

Dr. Paul Connolly

In terms of science, off Donegal, area 6, and west of Scotland, we are very concerned about cod, whiting and haddock. The advice is that there should be no fishing there. The EU agreed to set quotas for the area and tax for the area. Then rumours went around that it would halt all fishing. We were expecting a paper to come so that there would be a process of consultation between science and the Commission, between industry and science, and between science, industry and Government. No such paper materialised and it caught everyone on the hop. The major problem is that the Commission is very much in favour of consultation with stakeholders. There was no consultation with stakeholders here. We are working with the industry both here and in Scotland to try to build a solid case that can be built around mesh size increases and looking at closed areas and things like cod avoidance schemes. The key to it is that there needs to be buy-in from the industry, and science and industry must work together if anything fruitful is going to come out of this. Imposing draconian measures like this will not solve anything.

Dr. Peter Heffernan

The picture on this stock as in the case of most other stocks was shared with the industry from our surveys and outputs in June or July of this year. We were not in the loop on the sudden outcome.

Mr. Lorcan Ó Cinnéide

On Deputy Sheahan's question about the map, the only thing excluded from the map, is The stuff in the middle between the bottom and the top, which is the fish. As Dr. Heffernan says, that is held to be common. It is common access to a common resource, a concept invented by the French when they saw us coming into the EU. The stuff under the water belongs to the State. We have control over what floats on top of the water vis-à-vis our 200-mile limit and other limits. Unfortunately, according to the definition of the Common Fisheries Policy, the fish are shared. Therein lies the rub.

Mr. Gerard O’Flynn

We raised the business of the emergency aid package. Just in case Deputies were misled, Ireland is still looking for a European funding package regarding that emergency aid package.

Dr. Peter Heffernan

Deputy O'Sullivan asked about the time lag. Dr. Connolly will answer that question.

Dr. Paul Connolly

The Deputy is absolutely right. Science builds a data set and then uses that as a launch pad to predict into the future what will be the state of the stocks. This launch pad is based on data from the past. We need to strengthen that launch pad with information from fishermen and the industry. At the end of the day, a bit like weather forecasting, scientists try to predict the future. That is very difficult to do. The point was made earlier that we need more stability in predicting into the future. We need to develop plans to bring stability to the industry with three-year quotas or rules where people have a very good idea of what the prognosis will be for a fishery over the following three years. That is very difficult to do. That is the way to go but it is difficult.

Is it agreed that the clerk of the committee will convey to the Minister the discussion that took place today? Agreed.

I thank the Federation of Irish Fishermen and the Marine Institute for their comprehensive presentations and for answering the questions asked by members.

Our meeting on Wednesday, 3 December will be in private.

The joint committee adjourned until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 3 December 2008.
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