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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Sep 2010

Welfare of Horses: Discussion

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome the following: Mr. Louis Duffy, director of environment and emergency services, Cork County Council; Mr. Philip Maguire, deputy city manager; Ms Ursula Donnellan, administrative officer; Ms Olivia Pakenham, veterinary inspector, Dublin City Council; Mr. David Hanlon, Cantor Equine Limited, contractors used by DCC for horse seizures; Ms Caroline Curley, director of services, Limerick County Council; and Mr. John McCormack, director of services, Kilkenny County Council. Also in attendance is Mr. Garret Shine, veterinary officer, Louth County Council and recently appointed member of the national committee to deal with stray horse issues established by the City and County Managers Association.

I thank all delegates for accepting the invitation to discuss the welfare of horses. We are all aware of the serious problem of wandering and abandoned horses. Before calling on the delegates to make their opening statements, I must remind members of the long standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

The joint committee will hear submissions from Cork County Council, Dublin County Council, Limerick County Council and then Kilkenny County Council in that order. If Mr. Shines wishes to speak, he may do so when they have completed their submissions. I invite Mr. Louis Duffy to make his presentation.

Mr. Louis Duffy

I would appreciate if the chairman could make a slight change to the order in which presentations are to be made as my presentation is on laptop and it will take a little time for it to boot up.

That is fine. We will hear first from Mr. Maguire.

Mr. Philip Maguire

Dublin City Council has declared its entire administrative area as a control area under Part II of the Control of Horses Act 1996. The council has operated a seizure and impound service with a private contractor for several years. There has been an increase in the number of horses seized. Despite that we have been seizing a couple of hundred horses every year, the issue has not been resolved.

In 2006, we seized 128 horses; in 2007, we seized 190; in 2008 we seized 251 and last year, 2009, we seized 349. We have to date this year seized 310 horses, with the likely end of year figure being approximately 400. They are the figures for the city only. When we add the figures for Fingal County Council and South Dublin County Council, the two adjoining Dublin counties with a significant issue — Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council does not have a significant problem in this regard — the figure is doubled to 800 or 900. Dublin City Council's horse seizures are generally from public property in socially disadvantaged areas. Horses are seized in accordance with section 37 of the Act on the grounds of public safety and nuisance, danger to people, property and traffic, contravention of the by-laws, horses not under control, unlicensed and unidentifiable and, in many cases, animal welfare. We have had many cases involving animals that have been starved, ridden to exhaustion, beaten, slashed and rammed with cars. These more obscene cases are rare but do occur. Direct abuse such as overriding and galloping of horses on tarmac, on concrete roads and not feeding or providing them with proper veterinary care is more the case than the exception.

Encroachment by horses on private property without the owner's permission is not a major issue or the subject of many complaints. Dublin City Council faces many challenges in implementing the control of horses legislation. There is and has been since the late 1970s a culture of horse ownership in urban areas by individuals who cannot provide the necessary facilities and lack the education in fundamental horse care and welfare to properly look after the horses. They also do not have the necessary resources to do so. Owning a horse is expensive in that one must provide veterinary and farrier care and one must be able to feed the horse properly through the winter. In addition, one must be able to exercise the horse and provide stabling for it during the winter months.

In terms of disregard for the law and failure to accept the responsibility that goes with horse ownership, there are currently only 30 licensed horses in the Dublin City Council area. Most of those horses fall into the category of working dray horses or carriage horses of the type one sees around St. Stephen's Green. In a minority of cases, there are links between horse ownership and criminal activity. The seizure of horses poses dangers for county council staff and staff of its agents and contractors, in particular during the monthly fair in Smithfield on the first Sunday of each month. Seizing horses is guerilla warfare. One must go in to places at hours which will ensure avoidance of confrontation otherwise one can end up in a dangerous situation. A number of staff from one of our adjoining councils were seriously assaulted during the past 12 months.

Low value makes it easy for individuals to replace seized horses. The average cost of seizing a horse in the Dublin area is approximately €1,000. Some horses change hands for between €20 and €50. We have witnessed horses being swapped for mobile phones. It is practically impossible to find suitable outlets for rehoming most of the horses. Most of the seized horses are unsuitable for rehoming from a welfare point of view or because they are feral horses who have had no human contact or control for months or years and would need an investment of many months to break and tame them. The council is not in a position to do this.

The cost to public funds of operating this service is escalating. There is a demand on Garda resources also as council staff need back-up if they are to get out, not alone with a horse, but alive. The unregulated market at Smithfield provides a ready supply of horses. In this regard a question arises in regard to whether the passport law recently introduced can be used to cut off the supply. We understand a reasonable amount of new horses come in from England through Northern Ireland, up to Stranraer, across to Larne and then down across the Border. It would be interesting if there was an onus on all ferry companies to ensure all horses carried in either direction had the required paperwork. We understand this is not currently the case. We know that in respect of horses recently brought to England and back, no checks in regard to paperwork were made by anybody on either side. The existing legislation is ineffective for seizing the horses during transport or at the fairs. It is practically impossible to enforce or to take prosecutions due to the difficulty of proving ownership. We have had horses that bolted and caused accidents, kicked in cars and so forth. Of course, once the horse was seized, nobody owned it. The fines and deterrents are not effective because, frequently, the owners are people of no means, so there is nothing one can do. The control of supply is outside the remit of local authorities. Where does responsibility for enforcement of breeding and movement legislation, including passports, lie?

Multiple agencies, such as the local authorities, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Garda and animal welfare groups, have different responsibilities. While there have been meetings in the Dublin area to co-ordinate these, the difficulty of doing a mass seizure, at Smithfield for example, is such that it is not possible or advisable on public safety grounds to attempt it. In my view, the best way of doing it is to ensure that the Garda and local authorities have a right to seize the vehicle and the animal when a horse is being transported without a passport or licence.

Thank you. Is Mr. Duffy ready to make his presentation?

Mr. Louis Duffy

Yes. My apologies for the delay.

Cork County Council made by-laws under the Act and these were published on 20 July 2000. The by-laws do not establish any control areas in the functional area of the council. The council engages the services of a private entity to seize and detain the horses and they are subsequently held in a privately-run pound within the functional area of the council. Both services were procured by tender and are provided by the same entity. The council has authorised staff members of the private entity under the Act and they may seize horses for the council. This arrangement provides better out-of-hours cover than the council could readily provide and the pound is more secure than the council's facilities would be. The contract provides that there be a pound keeper available for at least one hour per day at weekends to facilitate the release of reclaimed animals.

In general, seizure of horses follows the receipt of complaints from the public and/or the Garda. It is generally in public areas where they are causing a nuisance or threat to the public. Some have been detained in the vicinity of Traveller halting sites, but the residents have not claimed to own them. They have, however, indicated that another family member may have done so.

Prior to the first quarter of 2010, the problem was small and no horses seized had been humanely destroyed. Since then, however, the council has had to destroy a number of horses. I will outline the numbers later. Efforts have been made more recently to transfer custody of horses to an animal welfare centre after the required detention period.

The owner of a horse may recover it on production of a licence, proof of identity and a form of indemnity, which includes a declaration that the owner has adequate accommodation for the horse. Microchips are inserted into all horses for identification. Cork County Council does not audit the accommodation prior to release of the horse and does not have the resources to do so. Consideration should be given to extending the requirement to register all lands and property in the State in order that meaningful searches can be carried out to verify that the details provided are correct.

The pound facility in Cork is also used by or on behalf of other local authorities for detaining horses seized in their functional areas. To ensure certainty of authority to detain the horses the council has a number of agreements in place under section 59 of the Local Government Act 1955 providing for the application of the council's by-laws where appropriate in respect of horses seized outside the functional area and detained in the pound in Cork. There is legal precedent dealing with detention outside of the functional area where seized and this is seen to give certainty in this regard. The agreements provide for notices to be put in place by the authorities that are seizing, disposal by Cork County Council where a horse was seized elsewhere and for the fees to be paid.

The increased level of seizures during 2010 has forced the council to seek alternatives to destruction. Animal welfare groups have developed animal sanctuaries across the country and Cork County Council has disposed of some horses by handing them over to these facilities. There is concern that these do not have any form of regulation or minimum operational standards. Rehoming of unclaimed horses within the county is not a simple matter. Anecdotal evidence suggests that some horses rehomed after the required period of detention were later stolen from their new owners, allegedly by the original owners. It is now considered an unacceptable risk to give custody of a seized horse to another private individual.

This situation will only improve when there is a change in the attitude of horse owners and strict adherence to nationally set minimum standards for accommodation. Public awareness must improve and those who own horses must be properly educated to understand the animals' welfare needs. All horses must be forced to have clear identification on them, preferably by use of a standardised chipping system.

To put the significance of the problem in Cork in context, it was a small issue in 2007 when the council seized only 18 horses, of which 16 were reclaimed and two were rehomed. In 2008, that number increased to 47 seized, with 43 being reclaimed and the balance rehomed. In 2009, it increased to 63, with 42 being reclaimed and 21 being rehomed. Up to June 2010, 89 were seized, 51 were reclaimed, 11 were rehomed, 13 were sent to animal welfare centres and 14 were euthanised.

Thank you, Mr. Duffy. I call on Ms Curley to make her presentation.

Ms Caroline Curley

Limerick City Council under its by-laws has effectively declared its entire functional area a control area for horses. This means one should not have a horse in the city unless one has a horse licence. From 2002 to date, there have been only ten applications for horse licences and none has been granted.

Our concern is that the costs are escalating. We use a contractor to collect and impound horses. It is a Cork-based contractor. We tendered again in 2010 but there was only one interested contractor. The contractor is paid a retainer and costs per trip, so the more horses that are collected, the more the service costs. In 2009, the council seized 103 horses, which cost approximately €160,000. Up to 30 June 2010, the council had seized 93 horses, which cost €130,000. If that rate of seizure continues, it will cost €260,000 for the year.

With regard to accountability, we report to our environment strategic policy committee, SPC, on our activity in horse control on a quarterly basis. We send quarterly reports to the city council and to the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. On the horse seizures, they are mainly confined to four local authority housing estates and to four Traveller group housing or halting sites. In 2009 there were 103 seizures with five aborted trips, and 93 seizures up to the end of June this year with nine aborted trips. Due to the concern over animal welfare expressed earlier this year, Limerick City Council attempted to run what we call an amnesty. This was publicised in the local newspapers and, with the Garda, we arranged three collection points in the city to encourage people who could not afford to take care of their animals to hand them in without repercussions. Seven horses were handed over. It was probably good that there were seven horses but one could not deem it a complete success, considering the number of horses in the city.

In Limerick we operate a horse forum which includes city council officials, the Garda, representatives of the LSPCA and the contract company. Previously, we were simply rounding up the wandering animals but in 2008 we introduced a new strategy with the help of the Garda. In fact, we could not operate at all without the help of the Garda. Under the strategy, gardaí called to the homes of the owners of horses and told them that if they continued to keep their horse, they would initiate a prosecution against them. The result is that in the past year the Garda has issued 20 notices and brought 25 prosecutions, with varied success in the courts. There appeared to be a marked improvement in 2009, especially on the north side of the city. Unfortunately, in 2010, the situation appears to be deteriorating again, which is indicated by the number of seizures this year.

The challenges for Limerick City Council now include the culture of horse ownership in local authority and Traveller housing, the disregard for the law, owners sometimes being unidentifiable which makes it difficult to take prosecutions, the low value of animals which makes them easy to replace, the high demand on Garda resources for safety reasons, ensuring value for money and ensuring we get the continued financial support of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

I call Mr. John McCormack.

Mr. John McCormack

I thank the Chairman. The invitation to make a submission to the committee is very timely, given the growing and very serious problem of stray horses in County Kilkenny. The council has by-laws in place under the Control of Horses Act and some of the main provisions are: the entire county of Kilkenny is a control area; there is a requirement for a horse licence; certain persons are exempt under the by-laws from licensing requirements; it is illegal to lead or drive a horse in a public place unless the horse is licensed and has a bridal; and it is illegal to allow a horse to graze in a public place.

The problem areas are specific to the location of Traveller accommodation at two locations in Kilkenny city and a third location in south County Kilkenny. This location in the south is specific to the presence of Traveller families.

The numbers of horses involved are ever-changing and figures are available only for the two locations in Kilkenny city. Our figures are based on readily visible animals only. Variables include the visibility of horses, topography and knowledge of land. We have regular surveys over the summer months, starting in March. We had a high of 152 horses in or around the city in June. Our last count on 23 September gave us a figure of 111.

The following has been learned from our surveys since March: the numbers and locations of horses are in a constant state of flux; a number of stallions are standing at stud, especially in the eastern environs area of Kilkenny city; during the breeding season — spring and summer — there appears to be visiting mares which require accommodation; there are serious animal welfare concerns for the horses involved and the horses we have impounded; all female horses are bred resulting in a population explosion; and there is an increase in ownership of thoroughbred-type mares, mainly for racing.

Under the by-laws, enforcement has involved periodic impoundments from public lands. This year there have been two such operations in County Kilkenny. On 8 June, 20 horses were impounded in the city. Some 17 were reclaimed and three were rehomed or euthanised. On 29 June, nine horses were impounded in the city, six were reclaimed and three were rehomed or euthanised. The costs involved are recouped from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

In recent weeks, 12 horses were impounded in an operation organised by gardaí in Piltown. The 12 horses were on a public road. Over the past weekend, two horses were impounded. Of these 14 horses, four have been reclaimed.

The pound we use is a very secure privately-owned pound located in the county. In the past, impounded horses have been illegally removed from insecure publicly-owned pounds. Private contractors are engaged by the county council to undertake the rounding up of stray horses and their transport to the pound. The contractors are accompanied by gardaí on all impoundments. Such exercises are normally undertaken under cover of darkness to avoid serious confrontation.

When necessary, on the day following an impounding operation, private security personnel are engaged to be present at the county council offices when the owners call to seek and arrange the release of the horses. Such security measures were required following incidents of serious intimidation of council staff.

I refer to the fees involved. It costs €475 for a horse to be reclaimed from the pound. There is an annual contract or retainer fee payable to the private contractor engaged to impound. This is recouped from the Department. To date, the fee for 2010 is €16,800, plus 13.5% VAT. The county council has had to dispose of 14 dead horses in 2010 at a cost of €2,736. The owners of the horses were unknown. These costs are not recoupable from the Department.

There are adequate laws in place to deal with the position in County Kilkenny. Legal issues surrounding land being provided in other local authority areas under the horse licensing procedure has proved problematic. The financial penalties in the form of impounding and pound fees the owners have to pay when reclaiming a horse are substantial. There is adequate provision for recoupment of costs from the Department, with the exception of the costs incurred in the disposal of dead horses.

To be successful, the stick approach of a regular and consistent regime of impounding is required. Given the time and staff resources required and, as important, the very tense and confrontational situations to which such exercises give rise, these exercises are very irregular in nature.

Possible solutions to the problem which presents in County Kilkenny include: an incentivised licensing system for all stallions in the country which should be performance related — in other words, they should be licensed to breed; culling and castration of unlicensed stallions; controls on the breeding of horses to be put in place — compulsory training and education if one is a horse breeder — similar to what is in place in agriculture; and a national cull of horses led by the Department.

We also have what I deem the carrot approach — the Kilkenny Traveller horse project which commenced in 2003 under the Kilkenny community action network and later the County Kilkenny Leader partnership. It led an initiative to develop a horse project which had as its core aims the following: to support Traveller culture, social and economic traditions; to build on the experience and skills that already existed within the Traveller community; to meet the requirements of horse keeping in order to comply with the Control of Horses Act; to provide training and skills development to participant Traveller horse owners; and to develop enterprises as part of the horse accommodation programme.

At the time there was an understanding that there was a commitment from the Department to provide capital funds of €350,000 to purchase the land required to house the horse project. This funding did not materialise. The Department provided an initial sum of €20,000 to fund the leasing of land on which the initiative could be developed. This funding was channelled through the county council. Land was leased at different locations over a three-year period. The project demonstrated potential but had to be shelved due to the lack of a permanent base.

The Kilkenny Traveller inter-agency group, which is a sub-group of the social inclusion measures committee of Kilkenny County Development Board, is representative of all the agencies that engage, at a local level, with the Traveller community of County Kilkenny and also of the Traveller community itself. It has identified the issue of Traveller horses as one of the three core actions for inter-agency collaboration. Sufficiently funded, we believe it offers the most appropriate and best vehicle through which the required level of engagement with Traveller men can be achieved. This group is available to re-engage on the Kilkenny Traveller horse project should funding be available to acquire land or lease land in the long-term on which the project can be housed.

Mr. Garret Shine

We have similar problems in County Louth. We operate our own pound, so as well as kennels we have stables and our own horse box and jeep. Our wardens try to do most of the work in-house. We have come across major welfare problems. We find there is general non-compliance with the Control of Horses Act and we also find we have significant road traffic accidents due to uncontrolled horses.

Unlike Dublin, many of our problems affect private land whereby horseowners place their horses on people's land without their permission. We can seize the animals when the landowner makes a complaint but there is often much intimidation and landowners do not complain.

We also have major problems with tracts of land which we would describe as of unknown ownership. It is neither public land nor is the landowner readily identified. There are horses on such land and it is very difficult to seize them under the Act.

It is very dangerous work. When we have horses in the pound, generally we must lock it completely and buzz all clients in and out, which affects all the work we do with dogs. In general, like most county councils, we operate the Control of Dogs Act as well as the Control of Horses Act. The Control of Dogs Act works very well but maybe the Control of Horses Act does not. One of the things we could do today is consider why not.

It is very dangerous and time consuming work. A horse is much more difficult to seize than a dog. We would support a multi-agency approach whereby we would team up with the Department and the Garda to try to get to grips with the main problem areas.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations, from which two things were immediately apparent. Not only is there a horse welfare issue but there is also a law and order issue with which we must deal. The local authorities, in particular in the larger urban areas, but also in the smaller urban and rural areas, are left to clean up the mess. There is also another cohort of animals where animal welfare is the issue, namely, where people can no longer afford to care for the animals and abandon them. I suppose it is a result of the economic position in which many find themselves.

I received correspondence from the Irish Horse Welfare Trust, which, like Mr. Shine, calls for joined up thinking. The by-laws of which I have heard, particularly from Cork and Kilkenny, prove that one can put rules in place that can cope with the people. We will probably have to deal with some using the carrot and stick approach. It was stated earlier that it costs €475 to deal with one horse and one might put some of those resources into further beefing up the community aspect, especially around the cities, where one would engage further with those who own the horses and allocate unused land. South Dublin County Council did that for a while. Is there any merit, from a cost and animal welfare point of view, in doing so?

A fundamental issue will be animal identification. Most horses are registered through one or other of the organisations, whether it be for thoroughbreds, show horses or draught horses. Pedigree breeds have a system of registration and a passport, whereas the animals subject to today's discussions do not.

A simple point was made about the animals being the supply chain. There are two elements to this. The first is getting the females slaughtered out of the system by way of some form of amnesty in the knackeries or the fallen animal places without the fee being applied. The second relates to an argument we made in the case of puppy farms when the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill 2009 was introduced, that a simple measure would have been that every animal — there are many dogs exported and it seems there are many horses imported — coming in or going out of the country must have identification. That would be a simple way, first, of cataloguing how many come in or go out, and second, of calling persons to account. It is the basic system. If that is identified as the primary supply chain for animals, it is something that needs to be dealt with.

It is worrying that people who work in this area and who own land on which there are trespassing horses are intimidated and afraid to report it. Initially, there will be a need for the stick approach. A heavy-handed approach to try to impose a certain level of rule must be adopted. There is no way one can do it all with the carrot approach. Following on from that, there must be a clear message that engaging with the authorities will save money in the long term. That is the bottom line. On the issue of engaging with the authorities, the use of a control area and licences relates to the confines of a city or a boundary. Am I correct in stating that a person can keep horses on a paddock without a licence?

Ms Caroline Curley

It depends on what is defined as the control area. In Limerick city, the whole of the city is defined as a control area and one can have a horse there provided one has a licence.

How does one secure the licence?

Ms Caroline Curley

One must have sufficient land and the proper stabling. The welfare element comes into it then.

A significant number of animals are reclaimed, according to every one of their reports, and there are not that many horses licensed. Are they reclaimed outside of the city boundary?

Ms Caroline Curley

Yes.

That explains it. When the point was made, it was confusing.

This document I received from the horse welfare trust is about joined-up thinking and collaboration between the local authorities and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Those who are compliant fear that they will be asked to double identify their animals which are already in the system registered through a breed society, the Show Jumping Association of Ireland, Horse Sport Ireland or the thoroughbred breeders. If one is registered, one should not need to register a second time because these animals have tattoos and passports and, in many cases, microchips. If we target the real problem areas and channel the resources, we can deal with the problem. However, there must be some heavy-handed approaches to this because there is human safety, quite apart from animal welfare, at stake here. I apologise that I must return to a meeting.

That is fine. Is it acceptable if I take the contributions of a number of members together or can I take them all?

We might as well take them all because there are so few of us here. Many of us will make similar points.

I call on Deputy Upton who is deputising for her colleague. I welcome her back to this committee as she is a former member. We all are saddened that she will depart the scene in 2012. I wish her the best of luck.

I have not gone away yet, but thank you, Chairman. I also thank you for the opportunity to speak. My concerns related to the Dublin City Council area and, I suppose, if I can be parochial about it, my constituency. In a reply I received recently through a councillor from Dublin City Council, I noted that there were 34 complaints received from Dublin South-Central between August 2009 and August 2010 and there were 85 horses seized in the same period. Clearly, there is a substantial problem.

One of the points Mr. Maguire and Deputy Doyle made is that multiple agencies have responsibilities. What is Dublin City Council doing to ensure co-ordination? There are the local authorities, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Garda, the animal welfare groups and others. The delegation acknowledged we need a co-ordinated approach. For as long as I can remember, and I may only speak for my constituency, there have been problems with animal welfare issues, in particular, horse welfare issues. This has dragged on and on. What action is Dublin City Council taking to achieve some level of co-ordination or what role does it see for itself in trying to access that co-ordination?

I understand the difficulties in Smithfield, but this is one area that must be looked at. In that same reply, dated 15 September last, the council stated that in the case of Smithfield it has made representations to Government to enact primary legislation to extinguish the market right without providing an alternative location, and it hopes this will happen soon. Has there been any progress on that because Smithfield is one of the key areas generating many of the problems for Dublin City Council, in particular, in my area.

Recently, I met two young lads at 15 or 16 from one part of my constituency. I talked to them for reasons that had nothing to do with horse welfare or anything like that, but they were totally committed to horse welfare. They went to Smithfield and for approximately €15, were able to buy a horse. Their problem is they very much want to keep those horses, to manage them properly and to look after them. They have an interest in them. They are in an area where they do not have too many outlets and, I would say, they would not have such commitment to any other pastime. It is very important for a variety of reasons to support them in some way or to put some facility or service in place to allow them to house the horses and to look after them properly. Mr. Maguire might comment on whether there is any possibility of putting in place some kind of facility for them.

Deputy Upton's mention of Smithfield brings back memories. My first visit to Dublin was on the back of a Ferguson 20 with a load of hay to sell in Smithfield. That was a long time ago.

There will be a few more of those by the look of things. Like the other speakers, I welcome the five worthwhile presentations made today.

This is the committee's third meeting on animal welfare and the control of animals, in particular, horses. We had Mr. Ted Walsh, the broadcaster and trainer, who is well known, in here and from my county, we had Mr. Ted Farrell of B&F Meats, which kills horses. We are moving on and trying to get an answer to the problem.

It is obvious from the presentations today that the problem is nationwide in that in the five local authorities whose representatives have spoken here today, the problems are much the same. The problem might be a little different in urban as opposed to rural areas but, basically, it is the same across the nation and it is a serious one. The biggest percentage of it involves horses of the Traveller community, who, according to their heritage and culture, must have horses as part of their system. In the past they moved around the country, brought their horses with them and stole some grass here and there. I recall that, when I was young, my father often went out at 6 a.m. to chase ten or 20 horses out of the field of grass he was trying to keep for his cattle to graze on. Times have changed and members of the Traveller community have settled but the problem with their horses remains. This is causing difficulties in urban areas in particular. Everyone is aware of the dangers in this regard.

Having listened to the various presentations, I am of the view that the necessary by-laws and controls are in place. However, as the two previous speakers stated, an issue arises in the context of co-ordination. Questions also arise with regard to who has responsibility. A multi-agency approach is required and the Garda must be involved if horses need to be moved. We must also consider the dangers inherent in catching and impounding horses. When these animals have been impounded, what should be done with them? When young people reach a certain age, they love caring for or riding horses. However, they lose interest very quickly. A previous speaker stated that one can now buy a horse for the price of a mobile phone. As a result, people can purchase horses for little or nothing and use and abuse them before finally abandoning them. It is then up to the State agencies to see to the welfare of these animals.

I do not know the answer to this problem. I served as a councillor before I became a Deputy in 2007 and I was involved with the project to which Mr. McCormack referred. Mr. McCormack, who was director of services for housing at the time, was a leading light on that project. The project was extremely worthwhile and, at the outset, we obtained funding for it — something more than €20,000 — from the Department, with a promise of more to come. When the downturn came the money disappeared. I had a little influence in the Department at the time because my brother was a Minister of State there.

We need to roll out other projects of this nature. I accept that funding is scarce as a result of the economic downturn but prevention is better than cure. If a project such as that which was run in Kilkenny was put in place on a trial basis, it will work. Projects of this nature all involve education of the Traveller community. It is fine to keep horses but people must realise that these animals require fodder, care and land on which to graze.

The committee should probably invite the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and his officials to come before it so that members might exert whatever influence they can in respect of this matter. If projects such as the one to which I refer were rolled out in every local authority area, this would create a starting point. Land is much cheaper to buy now than it was previously. The local authorities could purchase or rent land on which these projects could be run and people could be educated in how to handle and feed horses and to cut and store winter fodder for them. Horses can graze on grass in the summer but in winter they need hay or silage on which to feed. There is a lesson to be learned from the Kilkenny project. The route I have outlined is the one we should take. I accept that it might not solve all our problems but it would at least be a starting point and it would assist in showing members of the Traveller community that there is another way in which to care for horses.

I thank our guests for their presentations on this extremely serious issue. A large number of horses are being bought and sold in Smithfield each month. There are no controls in place and it is often impossible, for reasons of safety, for people to enter Smithfield when the market is on. We must consider the option of castrating more stallions. If we do this, there will be fewer horses for sale. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food must examine the possibilities in this regard.

I hope the committee can learn from the presentations made to it today. I also hope it can seek to ensure that there is greater co-ordination and that legislation is introduced so that we might gain control of the serious problem of horses running wild and being a danger to members of the public, particularly in urban areas.

It is obvious, from the tenor of the presentations made by our guests, that there is a major problem. Matters will not just suddenly improve. From my knowledge of the horse trade, I believe they will get worse. It is obvious that there are two aspects to this matter, namely, the urban and the rural. While both involve horses, they are slight differences between them. Major difficulties arise in the context of the urban problem. Anyone familiar with horses will be aware that it is not possible to keep a horse in a back garden. They are not like dogs or cats. I accept that one can keep greyhounds in one's back garden if one has access to a place where one can exercise them. When it comes to horses, however, the position is different in every respect. One must have a certain amount of land to ensure the welfare of the horse and of everyone around them.

I have highlighted this problem for quite some time. I do not know how we can deal with it. We have very little time to address it because matters are becoming worse by the day. Major difficulties will arise this winter. Even people in rural areas who have land on which to keep horses are discovering that they can no longer maintain them. The value of horses has dropped to such an extent that they are now nearly worthless.

Our first action must be to reduce the number of horses. How this will be achieved is the question we must address. I have for some time sought some kind of slaughter-out system whereby horses that are of no value and which will be of no value in the immediate future will be slaughtered. This is the only way we can begin to resolve the problem. It is fine to impound horses and local authorities do good work in that respect. However, through our discussions here, we have established that doing this costs in the region of €500 and in some cases more. It depends on the circumstances. If one impounds a quiet animal that will walk straight into a horsebox, that is fine. The cost could be much higher in respect of a horse one is obliged to spend a couple of days trying to round up. Such an animal may never have been properly broken in, ridden or handled.

Large sums of money are spent dealing with unwanted horses. If, as a once-off solution, some of that money could be devoted to slaughtering unwanted animals it would be a start. If a horse is taken to the pound, obviously it will not be slaughtered immediately. Eventually, a certain number of the animals that are impounded must be slaughtered. However, those who run the pounds usually seek out the owners or try to find suitable new homes for horses. The problem of unwanted horses is so great that this system will not address it. Releasing the animals back into the system does not help resolve the problem, particularly because the numbers of such animals consequently remains high. Consideration must be given to slaughtering. Departmental officials who deal with the welfare of bovine and other animals visit farms on a regular basis. These individuals may have a part to play in resolving this problem. In urban areas, however, it is difficult to establish the ownership of horses. When animals are not properly tagged and chipped, it is difficult to identify their owners. People can easily abandon these animals.

I have found animals on my land in the past and I was obliged to feed and keep them. I had no use for them because I had a sufficient number of my own. However, one cannot simply put an animal out on the side of the road and leave it there because safety issues arise. For example, a car could come along, hit it and someone could be killed.

The sooner we try to resolve the problem with abandoned animals the better. The best starting point would be a slaughter-out system because this would begin to deal with the matter. At present, if one does not have proper identification for an animal, the factory will not even consider it for slaughter. There is huge demand for horse meat in Belgium and France. We have a surplus of animals here and yet we cannot get them slaughtered. Surely, a proportion of them can be taken to a factory for testing and slaughter. I acknowledge it costs money to test them but we have already established that the cost of seizure is in some cases €500 per horse. Perhaps some of this money could be used to ensure these horses are taken to proper establishments for slaughter, prior to which they could be tested to determine if they have received any injections. I doubt if any of the horses in respect of which problems have arisen has ever received any necessary injections. We must address the short and long-term problems. There must be proper control of stallions and mares and a limit to the number of horses people can keep and these must be registered and identifiable. We are facing into winter again and I believe the problem will be greater this year than it was last year.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. Much has already been said on this issue. It is fair to say that this is an urban problem. Most rural people look after their horses and have the land to do so. I am not quite sure how we are going to address this problem. We cannot expect local authority staff to seize horses as it is an unsafe practice and leaves them open to intimidation. This issue recently came up for discussion at a meeting of my local authority. We need to get serious about tackling this issue. If we are to deal with this problem there must be traceability. The best way of ensuring traceability is to have horses microchipped. If this is done, horses can be at least traced to their owners thus ensuring some responsibilty for them. The cost of seizing horses is becoming very expensive. I note from the documentation from Limerick County Council that the cost involved in having a horse impounded is more than €1,500 per horse, which is a phenomenal amount. The cost for impounding a horse in Kilkenny is €475. This cannot be allowed to continue.

Limerick city is a licensed area. Am I correct in saying that when horses are impounded, the people from whom they have been taken can collect them from the pound because it is not in a licensed area?

Ms Caroline Curley

No.

Am I correct in saying that the people from whom the horses have been taken and impounded can go to the pound and take them out again?

Ms Caroline Curley

We only release the horses on payment of a fee and proof that the horse is being kept outside the control area. When reclaiming a horse people must produce affidavits and title documents from a landowner stating they have rented land from him-her and that is where the horse will be stabled.

How much is the fee?

Ms Caroline Curley

It is over €900.

The council is at least getting some of its money back.

Ms Caroline Curley

Few horses are released back.

(Interruptions).

I ask members to refrain from interrupting and to allow the witnesses to answer their questions.

I am trying to establish the facts. Addressing this problem is becoming very expensive. Either we are serious about addresing it, or we are not. I believe the only people who will be able to deal with this is the Garda. The Garda Síochána has horses and as such there are people within the force who are used to dealing with horses. Perhaps we should bring them on board to deal with this issue otherwise this problem will be with us in ten years time and will have gotten worse.

I welcome the delegation and thank them for their excellent presentations which brought home to us in no uncertain fashion the problem that exists with horses in city and urban areas, in particular Dublin city. Mr. Maguire from Dublin City Council stated earlier that between 2006 and 2010 the council seized 1,300 horses, which is alarming. I do not know what number of seizures were made in Cork during those five years.

The cost of maintaining horses in pounds is a considerable drain on the councils concerned and this issue must be tackled. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food demands from any farmer claiming an equine grant a passport in respect of every horse, pony, donkey and so on. Anything that could be done to alleviate the current problem would be of immense benefit. A horse with a clean passport, which illustrates it has not been injected with drugs in its lifetime and as such is fit for human consumption, could be taken to a meat factory and humanely killed. Its meat will then go into the food chain destined for Europe. However, few of the horses of which we are speaking have passports.

Should we put in place regulation to ensure every equine animal in this country has a passport? Perhaps that is the solution. Also, horse passports should be required for every animal entering and leaving the country. Is the law in this regard being implemented? There are many loose provisions in the current law in terms of dealing with this problem. It is important passports are available for every animal imported to or exported from this country. This may be the deterrent required to address the problems in respect of horses that are being experienced in Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Louth and Kilkenny, which is a big town.

It is a city.

Yes, it is. What we need is a multi-agency approach. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food must play its part in addressing this problem. The Department in tandem with the councils concerned should ensure steps are taken to alleviate this problem.

I will be brief and will try not to engage in repetition. I welcome the delegation. As Deputy Aylward said, this meeting is a continuation of discussions we have been having for quite some time. The joint committee recently heard a presentation from Mr. Ted Walsh who runs a slaughtering facility. We need to recognise that there are different parts to this problem. The social aspect of this problem needs to be addressed. I agree with much of what Deputy O'Sullivan had to say in regard to over-production. Deputy Sheehan stated that this is an urban problem. These horses are being produced somewhere and are then ending up in our towns and cities. In this regard, we need to examine the chain of supply.

It has been suggested on a number of occasions — those politicians who suggested this were not well thanked for it — that there is a need for a once-off slaughter scheme. Over-production is now affecting the thoroughbred industry and is seeping down onto the streets. We need to nip the problem in the bud. I, too, believe the Department should consider a once-off slaughter premium to try to take as many as possible unwanted horses out of the equation, both from an animal welfare point of view and a public safety perspective.

What is international practice in this regard? This is not, I presume, a uniquely Irish problem. I assume some of the larger towns in Britain are also experiencing this problem. What solution is being put in place in other jurisdictions? We need — please pardon the pun — to use the carrot and stick approach, the stick being the slaughter scheme. On the other hand, some of the people facing this problem currently, especially youngsters, do not have the facilities, money, education or wherewithal to care properly for their animals, although many of them have a genuine love for horses. Deputy Upton pointed out that if some of these people were given the opportunity and facilities, they and animal welfare would benefit. We should consider, through our city council structures, trying to provide land and facilities for youngsters with a genuine love of horses so that they can have the opportunity to interact with and ride horses on a structured basis without needing to go and buy a horse for €50 at Smithfield. I support the comments made by Deputy O'Sullivan on the need for a one-off scheme of slaughter premia to remove the excess animals from the system.

I apologise for my late arrival due to travelling up from Cork. I note the presence of Mr. Louis Duffy and am sure that with the number of Cork people present, he must feel this meeting is a bit like a meeting of Cork County Council. He is probably wondering why he came so far for it.

Some of the Cork members are missing as well.

Exactly. I note the submission from Cork County Council and will speak on that, but there is no point in me addressing the submissions of other local authorities because the only one on which I can speak with some authority is the Cork one. The question facing us is whether, if the coming winter is similar to that of last year, we will see similar abandonment of horses as happened last year. There is no evidence to suggest matters will be any different this coming winter. We cannot lay the blame at the door of the local authorities because they are doing everything they can to try to alleviate the problem. The issue is how to ensure responsible ownership. The type of horse abandoned in north Cork in particular was the typical piebald horse. A question arises, therefore, as to whether members of the Traveller community adequately ensure their horses are identifiable in compliance with legislation. It is fair to surmise, without being racist or prejudiced, that this is the problem. How can we ensure everyone who owns a horse, no matter their class, creed or origin, complies with the law on ownership of animals? Is microchipping being policed? If not, how can it be policed and has the State the resources to police it?

I do not believe in the notion of giving irresponsible owners a slaughter premium so that they can create another market. People must take responsibility for the animals they have purchased from day one and now that there is an excess supply of horses, they or others should not benefit from slaughter premia to get rid of the problem. We need to tackle the issues and find some mechanism to ensure horses will be traceable from birth and that owners can be readily identified. Where such horses are abandoned, punitive measures should be taken against the owner without prejudice. I suspect the pound operated by Cork County Council in Carrignavar will be full again this year, despite this discussion, unless the Government takes control of and grapples with the issue once and for all.

I apologise for being late. I did not hear the presentation but I have a copy of it. This problem will not disappear and will probably get worse. We are all aware that horses have little value currently and that very poor prices are being paid for them. If one takes any road, even out of Dublin, one will see the fields are full of horses. Many of the owners of these horses are not prepared to take responsibility for them and their owners cannot be traced because we are far from 100% traceability. We have a serious problem and the question is who should deal with it. The real problem is in urban areas, but even in the country there are surplus horses people do not want but cannot get rid of. If the coming winter is as bad as the last with hard frost, many of these horses will not be properly fed.

It is difficult to see where we are going with the horse industry, with so many horses neglected or unwanted and, even where they are wanted, there is a lack of facilities to care for them. Cost is another issue and as our local authorities are aware, many owners do not have the wherewithal to care for their animals. It is a serious problem and difficult to know how to address it. There is a market for the meat and we have a factory in Kilkenny which slaughters horses. They cannot be slaughtered without identification, however. It is not an easy problem to resolve but it must be addressed. It is startling that despite the shortage of money and the cutbacks in funding for local authorities, they must spend so much on gathering up abandoned horses. Dublin City Council, for example, expects to have taken responsibility for 400 horses before the end of this year. It is clear from this figure that it is a growing problem. I do not have the answers, but we must take a serious look at the problem and address it sooner rather than later.

Who would like to respond to the questions?

Mr. Philip Maguire

We seize horses for three main reasons, public safety, damage to parks and pitches and the welfare of the horses. Some 95% of the horses in the Dublin area are scrub horses with no monetary value. It is correct, therefore, that the situation in Dublin is different from that in some rural areas where there are more thoroughbred or semi-thoroughbred horses. The Ballinasloe horse fair will take place this coming weekend and dealers will offload all their surplus horses there. They do not want to feed them for the winter months. Regardless of whether it is a good winter or a bad winter, there will not be enough pasture or enough land to feed those horses so they will be turned out on to the road, on the long acre, and the traffic issues will then arise.

On the suggestion of a slaughter premium I would recommend rejection of such a proposal as it would create a market. It would be impossible to differentiate between one horse and another. It would create a false market and encourage imports. A variation on the suggestion — which may have been what was intended — was that horses could be surrendered. This has been tried elsewhere. I would not expect it to yield great results but at least it would not create a false market. I will ask Ms Pakenham to comment on the food chain later.

On the question of providing land for privately owned horses, Deputy Upton made a recommendation about two young fellows in her area. I have two comments. To look after a horse properly, besides pasture, it is necessary to provide care and exercise, stabling, feed, veterinary and farrier care. It is an expensive business. If it became known that any local authority provided this service for privately owned horses, there would be a large queue of people, probably including myself, looking to provide for a horse for their kids and family. It would provide all the benefits of horse ownership and none of the costs for those people. It is not possible. The council had a meeting recently with a group from the north side of the city — I will not say which area. It was one of three horse clubs or horse ownership groups in the area and they were looking for 200 acres of land for their exclusive use to properly pasture animals. My veterinary colleagues will agree that to properly pasture an animal requires half an acre, an acre or more, per horse. In the three or four local authorities in the Dublin area, horse ownership is probably well into four figures and therefore, such a proposal is not possible.

With regard to co-operation, Dublin City Council wishes to acknowledge that it could not do its work without the co-operation of the Garda Síochána. The council has had meetings with the Department. We have not seen real progress as yet but we hope some background work is being done on legislation to remove the ancient market rights in Smithfield. We would like the passport regulations to be upgraded with regard to the movement of horses. The council would like to have the power, along with the Garda Síochána, to seize not just the horse but the vehicle and the trailer transporting the horse when the horse is being transported without a passport. This would save us having to have a fleet of suitable vehicles. I can say for certain that in the Dublin area, 99.9% of horses have no passport, no licence and no owner if anything goes wrong.

Dublin City Council co-operates with its adjoining local authorities. Most of these horses are kept right on the border with Fingal which runs along the M50 and also close to the area referred to by Deputy Upton, on the border with South Dublin. It is a bit like the Rio Grande with the horses moving over and back. We co-operate with other local authorities in the seizure of horses. Some horses have returned and have been recycled in the system. We could not guarantee this has not happened. At the moment, 5% or 10% of the horses seized by the council are suitable for rehoming but the remainder are not. Unfortunately, this is the situation. The statistic may vary from area to area but in the city area, up to two thirds of the horses are social housing-related and approximately one third are Traveller-related. Ms Pakenham will speak about the food chain.

Ms Olivia Pakenham

Dublin City Council has a policy of slaughtering horses the majority of which are not suitable for rehoming and we do not have information on their backgrounds. The majority of horses seized in Dublin city are ponies. If they are to go into the food chain, we have to test for drug residues. Currently, if I were to bring a decent two-year old thoroughbred to a licensed Department abattoir I would only get €200 to €220 for the meat. These are animals with very poor body condition scores so there is no meat on many of them. They must be tested for residues and housed while test results are awaited. If a larger animal is worth €220, then these ponies are worth much less. It is not a viable option for the council. A total of 90% to 95% of the animals are being slaughtered because the recession means fewer people are available to rehome them. These animals do not have passports so their background is unknown. We have to respect withdrawal periods for drugs and minimum residue limits.

On another point, I am aware that a large number of teenagers are interested in horses and it would be great to develop that interest, but as a vet, I would be completely against sacrificing the welfare of animals for the sake of a person's hobby. For instance, I would love to have a St. Bernard dog but I do not have the facilities for it. I suggest a club system might be an option and this has been tried in other areas. The simple desire to look after an animal is not sufficient and we have all seen the photographs. It just cannot be allowed from a welfare point of view.

Mr. John McCormack

I have had four separate meetings with members of the Traveller community earlier this year to deal with the condition of horses after the very severe winter. They refused point blank to hand up any of the animals. One of those same people refused to pay the pound fees over the weekend for some of his animals when he came to reclaim them. He told the staff what they could do with the horses. This probably proves the point that impounding the horses works. It is a very expensive solution and it will provide a reduction in numbers but it has to be sustained and consistent. The horse farm project can only work if there is a realisation among the horse owners that the numbers are too great. One needs at least one acre per animal and given the numbers currently in Kilkenny this is not an option unless horse numbers can be reduced.

In the case of Dublin, are all those confiscated ponies sent the knackery to be destroyed? Are they of worthless value?

Ms Olivia Pakenham

Yes, they go to a Department abattoir.

What percentage of animals tested for drug residue are found to have residue?

Ms Olivia Pakenham

We do not test, that is the point.

I thought Ms Pakenham said they were tested.

Ms Olivia Pakenham

I said if they were to be used in the human food chain then we would have to test.

I suggested they would be tested in the factory rather than the council having to do it. If residue was found then they would not be used.

Ms Olivia Pakenham

Then the factory would take the risk.

If no residue was found then they could go into the food chain.

Ms Olivia Pakenham

Then the factory would pay for that then.

The factory will not pay.

This is where the Department must be involved and play its part, if this problem is to be resolved.

Mr. Philip Maguire

Many of the animals would not be suitable and one would know by the condition of the animal. Some of them may go into the animal food chain as opposed to the human food chain. I omitted to make a point about the passports and putting a legal onus on the ferry companies and the port companies to control movements. There is a bottleneck and if we can control it — I do not say we will eliminate the problem but at least it will be self-contained on the island.

Mr. Garret Shine

A horse must have a clean passport to go into the food chain. It must never have had an injection, apart from a vaccine. There is no withdrawal period with horses. They simply cannot have ever had medication which precludes most of the horses in question from going into the food chain.

That is a problem because such a strict regime does not apply in other European countries. That is something we must seek to change.

I shall allow Deputy Aylward to ask a quick question of Mr. Shine.

I wish to ask about the project in Kilkenny. None of the other local authorities made any comment about education. I accept it is costly and that it is not easy to get at least an acre per horse to rent but perhaps education programmes are the way forward in that care would be provided for a certain percentage of horses. Apart from Kilkenny County Council, what is the attitude of other local authorities to such programmes if the Department could be persuaded to put some money into education?

Does Mr. Maguire wish to comment? Then we will take Mr. Duffy.

Mr. Philip Maguire

Yes. At Cherry Orchard, which Deputy Mary Upton talked about, we have a community owned, operated and managed equine project. The equine centre owns horses. People can register there and be taught animal care and horsemanship. A small number have gone on to work in the horse industry. The project has reduced but has not prevented other horse ownership in the immediate area.

We got involved in another equine project on the north side where privately owned horses were kept in a facility. That has proven very unsatisfactory in that both the horses and owners are now totally unco-operative. It is not an experience we would recommend or intend repeating.

Does Mr. Duffy wish to contribute?

Mr. Louis Duffy

Yes, if I may on that point in particular, and I will refer to one or two other points after that. Geographically, Cork county is a large area and while some of the cities may be able to provide facilities, access to facilities provided in rural settings or even in large country towns is only open to the few at a high cost. When one puts it in the context of the other challenges to service provision right across the country it would be difficult to argue for such facilities to be put in place.

To follow up on a point made by Deputy Sherlock, we have a situation currently where there are 42 horses on one site in the town of Mallow. The main reason they have not been taken in as yet is that the pound is full. We do not even have to wait for winter for the pound to be filled. The population of Mallow is between 15,000 and 20,000. That is only one of a number of sites in that town. Smaller numbers of horses are to be found in other smaller towns across the county. There is no realistic way that we could provide a readily accessible shared facility that would in any way help to alleviate the difficulty we have across the county.

Does Ms Curley wish to add anything?

Ms Caroline Curley

There are mixed views in the city on it. Part of it is a Traveller issue and part relates to the settled community. We have tried to address the issue in the past but nothing successful ever came of it. There are a number of concerns, one being the ongoing cost. Even if one gets the capital cost from someplace there is the ongoing cost of running such a facility. The second issue is the number of horses and the number of people for whom one can cater. People just want to have their own animal and look after it themselves. I do not think one can run a facility in such a way. The third issue is that we just do not have land in the city as the boundaries are so tight.

That is all. On behalf of the committee I thank the witnesses for their presentation and for answering the questions. This has been a very informative meeting. The views and suggestions of the witnesses will be further scrutinised by the committee possibly when we bring the Minister in. We had the officials in already. As Mr. Maguire said, perhaps something can be done about the ferries. Does Mr. Duffy wish to speak?

Mr. Louis Duffy

One of the points raised by a number of committee members was multi-agency work. That is something we have begun to engage in more significantly in Cork recently. A number of sites were visited on foot of a complaint in one area but dealt with in a concerted way. One particular site had waste enforcement staff, animal welfare staff, housing staff, gardaí and customs officials. Each of them found business to follow up on from the exercise. Similar operations are planned not only dealing with animal welfare but other sites where there are multiple likely infringements of the law. That approach is proving to be effective and we are trying to develop a model for it.

Again, I thank witnesses very much.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.15 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Thursday, 30 September 2010.
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