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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Dec 2010

Lough Foyle Fisheries: Discussion

I welcome Mr. Liam Farren and Mr. Paul O'Donovan of the Lough Foyle Oyster Sub-Committee.

Before I call on Mr. Farren to make his opening statement, it is important that I read out the privilege material. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Mr. Farren to make his opening statement.

Mr. Liam Farren

I am the managing director of Whiskey Rock Fisheries Limited, which is based in Moville, County Donegal. Before it was formed in 1997, the company was previously known as William Farren and Sons Fish Merchants, Moville. I am the fifth generation of this family business, which predates the First World War. I am accompanied by Mr. Paul O'Donovan, who represents the majority of the fishermen in the public native oyster fisheries in Lough Foyle through the Lough Foyle Oyster Sub-Committee. The sub-committee was set up with the agreement of the Loughs Agency Advisory Forum in 2004. It was previously known as the Moville Fish and Shellfish Association, which had been in existence since 1995. The sub-committee was established to protect and conserve the public native oyster fishery in Lough Foyle and to safeguard the traditional rights of the fishermen who operate within the fishery. We thank the joint committee for its kind invitation to discuss our grave concerns regarding the management of the Loughs Agency, which is a cross-Border departmental body that is co-sponsored by the Irish and UK Governments. I offer special thanks to Deputy Sheahan, whose assistance in advance of today's hearing was much appreciated.

In the time we have been allocated, it will not be possible to cover the full details of our problems, which started 13 years ago. During that time, the harmony of our business and the livelihood of the fishermen and the general community, which depends on the public native oyster fishery in Lough Foyle, have been upset. The mussel seed trial of 1997 to 1999, which was co-sponsored by Bord Iascaigh Mhara, the Loughs Agency and Aquaculture Initiative, was the start of the problem, in effect. The primary cause of the downfall of our fishery was the decision at that time to relay mussel seed on top of our public oyster beds. If this issue is not addressed, it will perpetuate the downfall of the oyster industry, which has brought economic wealth to our community for centuries.

The existing problem - the loss of oyster grounds - was caused by certain aquaculture ventures. I refer to illegal practices such as the relaying of mussel seed and the introduction in 2005 of bonamia, which is a blood parasite that kills oysters. This disease must have been introduced through illegal movements of shellfish species from other areas to Lough Foyle as only infected oysters can carry this parasite. There are signs of invasive alien species coming from illegal aquaculture, particularly gigas oysters which fishermen are catching on existing oyster grounds. It is agreed among traditional fishermen and those involved in my business that aquaculture is a pest in Lough Foyle. If things had been done differently, the current situation could have been avoided.

The Loughs Agency needs to be taken out of the equation completely. The gap should be filled by the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority, which is currently regulating this business. I deem that the authority would be fair to all in the current situation. Perhaps the joint committee can help us with my next question. If not, perhaps someone will try to get us an answer. Is it true that talks are in progress regarding the hand-over of the powers of the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority to the Loughs Agency? Why should the taxpayer fund salaries for a body based in Northern Ireland when salaries are already paid so the same jobs can be done here? There is too much confusion. My business will not adhere to anything the Loughs Agency puts in place because I have no respect for the agency and its bully-boy tactics.

I ask Mr. Farren to refrain from such language.

Mr. Liam Farren

Okay.

It seems from the document that has been submitted that much more language of that nature may be used. I ask Mr. Farren to refrain from using it.

Mr. Liam Farren

That is no problem. My business and my family have invested tens of thousands of euros in the oyster industry. We have trained staff to handle oysters. We have upgraded premises to meet EU hygiene directives. We have developed suitable grading systems that are appropriate to the fragile nature of the oyster. We have built proper storage facilities to provide healthy habitat conditions for oysters during bad weather. We return undersize and oversize oysters to their natural environment, which is something for which the fishermen must also be thanked. We have developed a brand specifically for the Lough Foyle oyster. We invested in a survey during the mussel seed settlement of 2001, when no State agency supposedly had the funding to do so. It was 100% funded by our company. We prepared and developed a code of practice for the oyster fishery as part of a joint effort with the fishermen. It was the first time all the fishermen agreed with such a code. The chief executive of the Loughs Agency agreed with the code at the time, but he changed his mind about it after 2004. We do not know why he did so, although we could guess. We have invested time and money in going to Dublin, Brussels, Belfast and Derry to highlight the issues of concern. This has cost thousands of euros for us and for the fishermen's groups, which have personally funded their members as well.

One might ask why we have bothered to make such an investment. We have done so for the love of the oyster, quite simply, just as the fishermen have done so for the love of the fish. The oyster feeds us and our children, those who have gone before us and those who will come after us. This fishery is a passion for all involved in Lough Foyle. We will protect it at any cost. The Loughs Agency does not give us a say in these matters. Although it offers consultation, realistically it does whatever suits its own brief. As far as we are concerned, it engages in the consultation exercise merely to say it has covered its job before it continues to do as it pleases. Despite the consultation, it has ignored my company as an industry expert and the fishermen whose expertise has been passed from generation to generation.

In September 2009, we went to Belfast for a meeting of the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development of the Northern Ireland Assembly, at which representatives of the Loughs Agency were present. We expressed our concerns about the size and weight measurement guidelines, which had been changed in a way that we did not want. The agency's supposed law had originally provided for a ring size of 75 mm. The representatives of the agency were adamant that this was consistent with Irish law. I suggest they had not read the Irish law book, which provides that no oyster under a three-inch, or 76 mm, ring can be landed. This is how these problems begin. The agency does not know anything about oyster fisheries. Its staff have no experience of running an oyster fishery. Specifically, the agency, which was formally known as the Foyle Fisheries Commission, has only ever dealt with wild salmon populations. Traditional shellfish beds and aquaculture are new to it. Regardless of what consultations the agency has carried out, it has not once listened or adhered to what people on the ground have been telling it.

We have written separately to the Assembly's Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development and the North-South Ministerial Council concerning other issues but to no avail. We did not even receive a response from the North-South Ministerial Council acknowledging our letters. How is it possible that the agency appears to be cleared of any wrongdoing it does? To whom is it answerable? We are supposed to live in a democratic society yet this body seems to be able to do as it pleases without oversight. It seems to be answerable to no one but itself.

The Loughs Agency tells us it must report to the Foyle, Carlingford and Irish Lights Commission. In that case, why is the CEO of the Loughs Agency also the CEO of the Foyle, Carlingford and Irish Lights Commission? How can it claim to act in an open and transparent manner when we do not have somewhere to report wrongdoing? Who acts as the ombudsman in regard to the Loughs Agency?

We are worried about what is happening in Ireland. The country is experiencing an economic Armageddon, the like of which has never been seen before. It appears, however, that the Loughs Agency is handed money from both North and South without any questions being asked. Why? Has the Government sold the rights of the people of County Donegal to the UK? This seems to be the case given that the Assembly's Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development and the North-South Ministerial Council are passing laws for the Loughs Agency. My company and fishermen will never recognise these laws under the current regime.

All the laws that have been introduced are flawed because they have not done anything to help or in any way enhance the public oyster fishery in Lough Foyle. The Loughs Agency claims to have enhanced the fishery but it has ruined it and, in doing so, it will ruin our future. The Loughs Agency is bluffing both Governments to serve its own purpose, that is, to protect the organisation's jobs. All we have seen has been the agency's systematic inability to manage itself or protect a fishery of which it has foolishly been left in charge.

Members may ask the reason this is the case. We have a few plausible answers. The Loughs Agency set up an advisory forum, which is basically a talking shop, to gather information. Through this forum, it collects information which enables it to state it is doing its job and is working with and talking to people in the industry. The members of the advisory forum are divided into four focus groups which are supposed to meet approximately six times each year. Our focus group, known as the aquaculture and shell fisheries group, has never met.

The advisory forum met on the following dates in the past three years: Armagh on 21 February 2008; the Loughs Agency headquarters on 18 September 2008; Armagh City Hotel on 26 November 2008; the Silverbirch Hotel in Omagh on 20 May 2009; and the Loughs Agency headquarters on 23 September 2009. Rather than 18 meetings, a total of five meetings have been held. As is clear, meetings are not held consistently and, worst of all, the Loughs Agency indicates it has an aquaculture and shell fisheries focus group, even though such a group has never met and exists on paper only. Does this not set alarm bells ringing?

I refer now to the biggest con of all. The MMV Ostrea is the Loughs Agency’s new flagship from New Zealand. It was originally grant aided by both Governments to the tune of £750,000. The cost is still rising and Loughs Agency staff blab that the cost of the vessel is now nearer £2 million. Who is conning whom?

If another example is needed, I refer to the Lough Foyle native oyster survey of January and February 2010. I have provided members with minutes of a meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council of September 2010 which was chaired by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan. Two main areas of concern are highlighted. According to the document, Ministers "noted the effectiveness of the agency's response to pollution incidents on the Foyle system and the positive impact of the regulation of the Lough Foyle oyster fishery including improving the catches in the 2009-10 season". How can the agency or anyone else claim to have improved catches on Lough Foyle public oyster fishery? Fishermen and businesses such as mine have for years been implementing harsh measures on grading and return policies for undersize and oversize oysters. Given that the agency took control of licensing the oyster fishery for the first time in September 2009, how could it have improved catches for the 2009 season? This improvement could only have been achieved through the policies we pursued over four to five years, the period required for oysters to reach marketable size.

l will now describe a new level of corruption involving this group. The native oyster survey in Lough Foyle, as highlighted in red in the presentation, was carried out by the MMV Ostrea. According to the minutes of the North-South Ministerial meeting of September 2010, Ministers noted that the Loughs Agency’s new monitoring vessel, the MMV Ostrea, “is now operational and has facilitated the surveying of the seed mussel areas in Carlingford Lough and the native oyster fishery in Lough Foyle”. A survey carried out in January and February 2010 was the only oyster survey carried out so far this year in Lough Foyle. The MMV Ostrea has a tracking system fitted, as is required by law, which appears to work only when the vessel is in operation. Where was the vessel in January and February this year?

Members have before them a series of images taken from the ship AIS tracking system, a highly accurate website. The document features a series of numbers with lines underneath. Members will see, at the centre of the maps, a small rectangle with the words "MMV Ostrea” beside it. On 4 January 2010, the vessel was docked at Lisahally and there was no movement. On 8 January 2010 it was also docked at Lisahally, with slight movement towards Derry and back, indicated by a black or purple line. On 22 January 2010, the vessel was docked at Lisahally and moved to Derry and back, again indicated by a line. On 2 and 8 February 2010, the MMV Ostrea docked at Lisahally with no movement. On 10 February it was docked at Lisahally with little movement, as indicated by the small line. On 12 February it was docked at Lisahally with no movement and on 16 February it was docked at Lisahally with little movement, as indicated by a line. On 22 and 23 February and 15 and 22 March, the vessel was docked at Lisahally with no movement. On 27 March, it was docked at Lisahally, with little movement, as indicated by squiggles. On 28 March it was docked at Lisahally with no movement. On 8 April 2010, the vessel was docked at Lisahally, moved to Foyle Bridge and back again. On 9 April 2010 the vessel docked at Lisahally, moved to Foyle Bridge and back again. Eventually, on 11 April 2010 the vessel made its longest journey from Lisahally, Derry to Killkeel. To cut a long story short, how could this vessel owned by the Loughs Agency and funded by Governments South and North of the Border have carried out the January to February 2010 oyster survey in Lough Foyle? The answers lies with the fishermen and the fishing vessels the Loughs Agency hired to do the oyster survey, none of which they have accounted for. Neither have they accounted for them to the North-South Ministerial Council in the presence of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan. Who smells a cover up?

The big question is that it is said that the MMV Ostrea did the survey and members now know it did not. Where did they source the money that paid for the fishermen and their vessels which were actually used in the said survey? For now we have given the committee enough to go on and to question the legitimacy of the Loughs Agency. We openly state today that we will not recognise this body as it stands under the current regime nor any laws which have been foolishly handed to it as we have no faith in the Loughs Agency or its commitment to Lough Foyle.

We ask the committee today to take action. We ask members to consider the following points and implement them. First, to implement a full public inquiry into the Loughs Agency regarding mismanagement by the senior management team. Second, as the Department with responsibility for the marine can issue foreshore licences for Lough Foyle, it should issue a removal order for the illegal aquaculture and start the process of alien invasive species removal, for which it can probably get EU funding. For the benefit of the public oyster fishery and the community that this fishery supports I urge the committee to please do something. Committee members should not be the ones that ignored the next Anglo Irish Bank-FÁS debacle.

I asked Mr. Farren already to refrain from that type of language.

Mr. Liam Farren

I am sorry, Chairman. I thought that would be okay. A considered, combined, course of action is required. We thank committee members for their time and welcome any questions they have on the issues raised.

I thank Mr. Farren. Before I call Deputy Sheahan, is it agreed that Deputy Aylward will take over the Chair. I have to go into the Chamber to speak. Agreed. I will keep an eye on proceedings for the moment.

I welcome Mr. Farren and Mr. O'Donovan. I met the two gentlemen in Donegal more than a year ago. I thank the secretariat and the Chairman for affording them the opportunity to come and tell their story. There is only so much ground we can cover in that the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is responsible for the Loughs Agency. For the want of a better description, the agency is answerable to the Minister, Deputy Ryan. The relevant committee is the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. We can deal with what comes under the remit of this committee, namely, the aquaculture licensing part of it. We cannot deal with the issues relating to the Loughs Agency. I suggest that we send a copy of the report to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources for its consideration. It might see fit to bring Mr. Farren and Mr. O'Donovan before it. We cannot deal with the Loughs Agency as it does not come under the remit of the committee.

The licensing issue was a big concern of the two gentlemen when I met them. One must question the criteria for the granting of aquaculture licences in the Lough Foyle area and the loss of oyster ground due to relaying of mussel seed. Lough Foyle is a big area. Is there not enough space for the two endeavours to work in harmony?

Mr. Liam Farren

They could work in harmony but only if done in a different way. We need to start back at square one again.

Does each licence holder have an area of ground?

Mr. Liam Farren

That is the problem.

Mr. Farren should please allow the Deputy to ask the question and then he can answer.

Mr. Liam Farren

All right. I am sorry.

If the whole area was divided among licence holders, be they for oysters or mussels, could they work in harmony?

It is worrying to hear that powers will be taken from the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority, SFPA, in which we have invested a great deal and are proud of the work it does, and given to the Loughs Agency. As a committee we were involved in the setting up of the SFPA. I will try to find out if powers are being handed over to the Loughs Agency.

I am going a bit outside our remit but I will put questions directly to the Minister, Deputy Ryan, on the matter. I will forward them to the delegates before I send them to the Minister. From what Mr. Farren said, I understand there can be a consensus and a common ground and the industry can work in harmony. It should be our goal that if we can help we will do so. I do not want to put anyone out of business but I do not want anyone's business to deteriorate because of illegal practices either. It is possible to work in harmony. We must find a way to do that.

What Mr. Farren outlined in his presentation about the oyster survey in January and February is unbelievable. It is very difficult to comprehend the claim of the agency on the survey that was carried out and that the vessel that was supposed to be involved was parked up. It is like a Deputy saying he was in attendance for 100 days but if he was in hospital he could not be here. We must be careful that we do not overstep our remit regarding the Loughs Agency but we should forward a report to the relevant committee if there is agreement on that approach. We can deal with the licensing issue.

Does Mr. Farren wish to respond or will I invite more questions?

Mr. Liam Farren

The whole system can work in harmony. There is plenty of ground. According to the map, we have lost approximately 40% of oyster ground. The problem is that the mussel growers are not licensed. As such, they have no aquaculture sites. Anybody can fish the grounds they put the mussel on, but it is not within the fishermen's remit to do that. They want things to work in harmony but everything must be brought back to square one get things working properly and in a more manageable way.

My area of Cromane is a renowned mussel growing area. Each stakeholder has a plot, for the want of a better word. The area is divided out. They work very well together. That is my experience of the shellfish industry in my area. Perhaps that is the approach we need to take.

Mr. Paul O’Donovan

One can set up a mussel bed anywhere because one is bringing in seed mussel to plant it. Oyster beds occur naturally. We cannot move them. They cannot be established elsewhere. Nature decides where these beds should be. I do not wish to denigrate mussel growers. However, if one sees something which is growing naturally in an area, then one comes to the conclusions that said area is fertile. Where then will one place one's seeds, particularly if there is nobody to stop one? There are laws to stop this kind of behaviour but they are not enforced.

I thank our guests for their presentation. I come from Fenit, which has natural oyster beds. We claim that the oysters produced in Fenit are the best in Europe. Mr. Farren would probably say the same about those produced on Lough Foyle.

I fully concur with our guests' concerns in respect of mussel seeds and gigas oysters. Mussels should not be introduced to the natural spawning grounds of flat oysters because the two species are not compatible. Fenit almost lost its oyster beds on foot of a decision taken to scatter mussel shells, which were cleaned, in the hope that oyster spat would stick to them and regenerate the bed. This had the opposite effect and almost wiped the bed out. At that stage, local fishermen and the Tralee Bay Oyster Fishery Society Ltd., on which the fishery is vested, came together to dredge the bed after the season and remove every mussel shell. The oyster bed as subsequently returned to its former glory. I understand our guests' concerns because even though the mussel shells used in Fenit were purified, they still contained the disease. I know exactly what they are up against.

I do not believe it is acceptable, under any circumstances, for mussel platforms and gigas oyster platforms - which both give rise to farmed produce - to be placed alongside natural oyster beds that have been in place for centuries. The diseases in the mussel and gigas oyster seeds that are brought in for planting are completely alien to the areas in which they are placed. As people in Fenit and Lough Foyle discovered, these diseases can have a detrimental effect.

In the context of aquaculture, I take it the issue regarding mussel and gigas oyster seeds relates to the part of Lough Foyle that is located in the Twenty-Six Counties.

Mr. Paul O’Donovan

Some of the gigas oyster trays are on the Twenty-Six Counties side and some are on the other side. Obviously, it is then a matter of figuring out to whom everything in the water belongs.

I take it that the oyster bed is somewhere in the middle of Lough Foyle.

Mr. Paul O’Donovan

Yes.

Does the difficulty arise because of where the bed is located and as a result of the fact that two agencies - the Loughs Agency and the SFPA - are claiming jurisdiction?

Mr. Paul O’Donovan

That is correct.

So that is where the problem lies. A strong argument can be made in respect of the introduction of licences to ensure that gigas oyster and mussel seeds will be located away from the natural oyster beds to protect them. As already stated, however, there are two jurisdictions involved. The difficulty is how to deal with the matter in that context. Is the SFPA policing the flat oyster beds?

Mr. Paul O’Donovan

No.

Who is policing them?

Mr. Liam Farren

The Loughs Agency is doing so at present.

Where are the oysters landed and from where do the boats come?

Mr. Liam Farren

The SFPA regulates my business and a few others on the southern shore. At present, only the Loughs Agency can issue licences to fish the oyster grounds.

So the licences are issued in the Six Counties.

Mr. Liam Farren

There is a consultation process which is ongoing.

Who issues the licences.

Mr. Liam Farren

The Loughs Agency.

So they are issued from the jurisdiction of the Six Counties.

Mr. Liam Farren

Yes.

Fine. The system is all over the place and that is why there is a huge problem. I am extremely disappointed that the North-South Ministerial Council is not seeking to address this matter. I will certainly pursue the matter with the council. Are the oysters landed in the Six Counties or the Twenty-Six Counties?

Mr. Liam Farren

The oysters are all landed in the Twenty-Six Counties.

Does the SFPA carry out policing in respect of the landing of oysters?

Mr. Liam Farren

Yes, representatives from the SFPA visit my premises on a regular basis.

That is fine. I take it that the Lough Foyle Oyster Sub-Committee runs the oyster bed.

Mr. Liam Farren

No, it is actually a public fishery. The Lough Foyle Oyster Sub-Committee was only established to help protect and conserve the oyster fishery on Lough Foyle. The sub-committee is comprised of a group of ordinary men.

How is the fishery vested? Is it vested on Lough Foyle?

Mr. Liam Farren

It is on the lough. It is a public fishery.

So that is where our guests must start. The oyster bed in Fenit was almost destroyed and it was being exploited. Anyone who obtained a licence could fish the bed. Up to 200 boats were fishing there for oysters, which was unsustainable. As a result of what was happening, the oyster bed was practically wiped out. We decided to establish the Tralee Bay Oyster Fishery Society Ltd. and the oyster bed was vested on this society, which has the authority and power to issue permits. Now, while anyone can obtain a licence, it is not possible to fish without a permit. It would be in our guests' interests to contact Mr. Denis O'Shea, manager of the Tralee Bay Oyster Fishery Society Ltd., because he could provide them with a great deal of advice on the constitution of the society and how it works. Tralee Bay has the best regulated and policed fishery in the country at present. If that were not the case, there would no longer be an oyster fishery there.

I welcome our guests and thank them for their presentation. The North-South Ministerial Council was established under the British-Irish Agreement to foster co-operation between the North and the South. Everyone wants such co-operation and we are all interested in ensuring that it continues and develops. I am aware that the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food serves on the council. Who are the others who serve on it? I understand that a number of Deputies and Senators are members of the council. In that context, there is room for manoeuvre because we can seek to influence our representatives on the council. Members of the committee should approach those who serve on the council.

Did our guests take the opportunity to bring their problems to the attention of the North-South Ministerial Council to discover if they could be resolved? I agree with what Deputy Tom Sheahan stated in the context of the fishing of oysters and mussels. Lough Foyle is extremely large and there is room for both oyster and mussel fishermen, particularly as the beds are sufficiently big. There need not be conflict between the two sides. Have our guests approached the North-South Ministerial Council in the interests of discovering whether it might be in a position to take a hands-on approach to resolving this matter? The council might be in a position to inform the Loughs Agency that a different approach might be taken in respect of Lough Foyle and that there must be co-operation between those who fish for oysters and mussels.

Is the Lough Foyle Oyster Sub-Committee represented on the Loughs Agency? Is there anyone who could speak on the sub-committee's behalf when the agency meets? I accept that the latter only met on six occasions. The sub-committee should be represented within the agency so that when the agency meets, the relevant person could state that this matter must be addressed in a correct and fair way.

The committee should bring this matter to the attention of the Minister and the Deputies and Senators who serve on the North-South Ministerial Council and inquire as to whether they can intervene so that a satisfactory resolution might be reached. The delegation stated their fisheries would be wiped out because of the loss of oyster grounds due to relaying of mussel seed and the introduction of bonamia, a blood parasite, which kills oysters.

I propose the committee approaches the North-South Ministerial Council to seek a satisfactory conclusion. Why has this talking shop that was set up to monitor developments in aquaculture in Lough Foyle never met? It seems the system is not working properly there. This matter needs to be progressed and answers received.

Deputy Bobby Aylward took the Chair.

It appears the problem stems from the joint initiative between the Loughs Agency and Bord Iascaigh Mhara that resulted in mussel seed being laid on traditional oyster beds. The North-South Ministerial Council must get an objective review of this policy. A political initiative is needed to have this happen.

The Loughs Agency's corporate summary states it will embrace change through a proactive, flexible and innovative approach to its work as individuals and corporately. In essence, the North-South Ministerial Council should initiate a review of the initiative in Lough Foyle and assess the problems that have arisen.

As was stated by Deputy Ferris, who has much more knowledge of fisheries than I have, the two types of fisheries in question can coexist but not the way they are structured in Lough Foyle. The Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security proposed a foreshore licence Bill which would have recognised designated aquaculture sites. It is natural that one will want fisheries located where they are best suited. Bord Iascaigh Mhara and the Loughs Agency should carry out a review of this initiative in Lough Foyle and fix the damage before it becomes irreparable.

I welcome the delegation from Inishowen and commend Deputy Sheahan on organising this meeting. He made a commitment in Moville one wintry evening to have this meeting. That he followed through on it after moving on to a different portfolio deserves commendation.

I am aware of the many issues and complications on the Foyle. The delegation's presentation highlights how it sees solutions and coexistence with the mussel industry. Mr. Liam Farren's point about going back to basics must be welcomed.

The most crippling element for all fisheries is regulation. Ten years ago fishermen, who are natural battlers against the elements, would have been angry and tried to fight the bureaucratic system. These days this has turned to apathy and they have given up the fight. The Council fisheries meeting on 13 and 14 December will see the closure of fishing in Areas VIIA and VI. This blanket ban will wipe out the whole industry.

In the case of the Foyle oyster fisheries, they are having to deal with double regulation. Therein lies the problem. Not to defend the Loughs Agency over our marine Department, but there are two Departments working in this area and it is leading to complications. It was suggested by Mr. Liam Farren that the fisheries should come under the control of a local structure driven by the people instead of a consultation process, a byword for keeping people happy. Legislation has been passed in Dublin, London and Brussels on establishing the umbrella group of the Loughs Agency. Unless a local government structure is put in place in the Foyle fisheries, these problems will not be solved.

Similar problems will emerge in other areas. In the Swilly, the National Parks and Wildlife Service has suggested there may be a blanket ban on mussel dredging, even at microlevels, to counteract damage from large-scale dredging. We need to get back to basics and have people working around the table to come up with solutions. I know this issue has been around for 15 years. I am sure the mussel fisheries sector wants to work in coexistence too.

I thank Deputy Sheahan for organising today's meeting. As he pointed out the Loughs Agency comes under the remit of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. I am glad this matter will be referred to the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.

Where will Ireland get the revenue stream to pay the 5.8% rate on its EU-IMF loan? We are going to have to get back to basics. Ireland will have to become a maritime nation again in which aquaculture will be the driving force to produce the local revenue stream needed. For every job at sea, Mr. Liam Farren can create seven on land.

We also have to look at the four year plan. Within the plan is an acknowledgement that there is going to have to be value added as regards the food processing sector. We as politicians, as well as the industry, have to challenge this deal to see whether we will get grant aid from Europe for factories, more assistance in terms of licensing applications and licensing approval. If we have the forthcoming EU Council of Ministers saying it is going to close all the areas, how are we to buy into a four year plan that is to provide additional value added in terms of processing within the seafood sector if we are not allowed to fish?

Is the Deputy saying all these areas are being closed to aquaculture?

No, I was referring to the fisheries.

The Deputy is not talking about Lough Foyle.

No, I was talking about the white fish sector, shrimps, etc., and the Irish Sea as well.

I am new in this portfolio, although it is clear from the few meetings I have had with different people that fish, or land food as I call it, will account for a massive level of demand in the world, with 100 million births each year. The demand for food from European countries and from Ireland in particular is going to grow significantly. I understand that the smaller man is being squeezed out.

As Deputy McHugh has said, the fight might go on but it is a question of standing one's ground from the outset. I will give a commitment to meet the industry's representatives, but where ministerial representatives are expected to see that things are done fairly, such people should be brought before the committee and told what they have to do for an industry that has been good to this country for the last 200 years. We could talk all day, but people have got to act now. I wish the industry well, and I know how its representatives feel from a small business viewpoint as well. I have heard that there are 40 people involved and I should like to go and meet them. If they have to fight their corner they must do that and open negotiations on the question of mussels.

Are the people fishing the natural oyster Southern fishermen? I take it the mussels are located on bags close to the seashore, or are they spread out and dredged? In any event, there is a serious problem.

Mr. Paul O’Donovan

We have representation on the advisory council. The council ceased to meet us because along with the anglers and other people who were on it, we managed to get a couple of unanimous motions passed. Unfortunately, however, the chairman of the council was not happy with that and the meetings ceased to be called.

We have been in touch with the North-South Ministerial Council, and sent it the same detail that is in the presentation here today.

Is there representation on the Loughs Agency, or are you focused on that?

Mr. Paul O’Donovan

No, we met its representatives in the agency's office. We had an introduction from one of the board members to meet them, and we made our case. At that stage they admitted they had made mistakes and they had to come running back to both Governments to get the legislation changed. They said they would work more closely with us but subsequently refused to meet us.

Mr. Liam Farren

The meeting Mr. O'Donovan is referring to was about two years ago. The last meeting was two or three months ago, but an issue was being brought up at that time by the sub-committee whose members had no trust in the Loughs Agency to the effect that all minutes of previous meetings be read out. They refused to read out the minutes at the meetings. The committee will appreciate that if one has not got the minutes of a previous meeting one cannot agree to them. Eventually they sent the minutes of two meetings to the chairman in the post but there have been no meetings since.

There has been no response.

Mr. Liam Farren

There has been no response.

Has the North-South Ministerial Council ever been approached with this documentation?

Mr. Liam Farren

Two documents have been sent, from myself and the Lough Foyle Oyster Sub-Committee, and two letter forms, by registered post. Our committee confirmed by e-mail that they had been received, and we had a fairly good working relationship with their committee. Mr. Ian Paisley Junior was the chairman at the time, but he has since moved on because he has taken up a position at Westminster. The letters were "cc-ed" to the North-South Ministerial Council, but there was no response to acknowledge them, or anything.

Mr. Paul O’Donovan

We can confirm that not all the fishermen are southern based.

Do the Northern fishermen land in the South?

Mr. Liam Farren

There is some confusion here. When the Loughs Agency took over the job of handing out licences to the fishermen, effectively approximately 50% were put off the water due to current legislation, which states one has to have bi-valve tonnage and kilowatts on one's boat. Given that it was a new licensing regime, we asked that the agency consider introducing a stop-gap so that existing fishermen could stay in the fishery and work their way towards buying bi-valve tonnage, or whatever, for their boats, perhaps over a two-year period. This was refused, so boats that would have fished could now no longer do so because the fishermen could not afford to buy the tonnage for them. It is the same on the southern side.

Realistically, there are about 50 boats fishing in this fishery this year where in its heyday it would have supported around 120.

We faced the same situation in Fenit as that being described by Mr. Farren. What we did was to apply for what is called an aquacultural licence and satisfy the authorities with regard to the compliance issues in respect of the boat. That suffices, in the event, but it does not matter how many people get licences in the Tralee Bay fishery - only those with permits may fish. That is how matters are regulated from a local point of view, but these interests need to be vested in a society, so that it has the authority to issue these permits. That is how the fishery is protected over time from over-fishing or abuse from within. By common consensus in the fishing sector, this is probably the best, locally regulated fishery in this country and beyond.

It is self regulation.

Is there a problem with the permits? Once someone has his boat in order, is there then a problem obtaining permits? Or are fishermen being curtailed in the size of their boats?

Mr. Liam Farren

If the boat owners could afford to buy licences, we would have a situation whereby there would be more boats fishing. There would be no problem with the licence issue. The problem is to get that investment for the size of boat we are talking about. It could be anything between €40,000 and €50,000.

I would like to thank the two gentlemen for their presentation. While the Acting Chairman was being cautious with the language he used, the two gentlemen were doing no more than expressing the frustration that they feel. That must be noted.

While we talk about licences and so on, we must take first things first. The issues on the ground must be addressed. I would go along with Deputy Ferris's point regarding a localised agency. We have the SFPA and the Loughs Agency. This goes back to common ground and the two industries working in unison for the better of everyone. How will that come about? Will it come about through the North-South Ministerial Council? I am disappointed to hear it did not even respond to the witnesses. That is not good enough and is not acceptable. We will forward this to the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. I will submit questions directly to the Minister in respect of the licensing issue.

I again thank the two gentlemen for their presentation. Mr. Farren pointed out that he is the fifth generation to be in this business and Deputy McHugh used the words "fighting". If we were all stuck in business we would fight for it, so the witnesses must be admired for that. I agree with Deputy Ferris's point about finding a way in which it can be self regulated. These fishermen do not want to make a killing this year and have nothing next year. They want to make a living and self regulation is the best way to protect that. They should strongly consider meeting with Mr. O'Shea.

I will forward to the witnesses the questions that I am putting to the Minister in respect of the licensing and so on. A few questions will have to be submitted to the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan. The North-South Ministerial Council consists only of Ministers, so it should be easy enough to ascertain the identity of the other members.

What would the witnesses like to see happening so that their problems can be sorted?

Mr. Liam Farren

The fishermen are fed up with the current regime of the Loughs Agency. That top table needs to be emptied out and a lot of things need to be done on the North-South Ministerial Council to sort things out. They need to go back to basics and start again. Both the oyster industry and the aquaculture industry can come to an agreement on where there should be ground for fishing and so on. All the fishermen want is their oyster grounds back.

Mr. Paul O’Donovan

From the fishermen's point of view, we would welcome a suggestion along the lines of that made by Deputy Ferris. When it was proposed that the Loughs Agency take over the oyster fishery, we petitioned heavily that the agency be put under some trust, consisting of elected representatives, scientists and so on, in order to figure out the best thing we can do for the loughs. We were more or less told that the Loughs Agency would be the flagship, or the jewel in the crown, and that we should go away and stop annoying people.

I think we have given the witnesses a fair hearing today. I am only the Acting Chairman, so we will discuss what they have proposed for the next meeting. We will have to decide whether we will ask the Minister or representatives from the Loughs Agency to appear before the committee. We will follow up on this and we will get back to the witnesses. I thank them for their presentation and we will get back to them on how we can move this forward.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.45 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 8 December 2010.
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