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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Jan 2011

Redevelopment of Sugar Beet Industry: Discussion with Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food

We are now in public session. I request that all mobile phones be switched off completely in the interest of the editorial staff who are reporting the proceedings.

From the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food I welcome Mr. Tom Moran, Secretary General, Mr. Martin Heraghty, assistant secretary general, Mr. Kevin Cassidy, principal officer and Mr. Aidan Duane, assistant principal officer. I thank them for coming before the committee to discuss the issue of the redevelopment of the sugar beet industry in Ireland.

Before I call on the Secretary General to make his opening statement I remind all present that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Tom Moran

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for giving the Department the opportunity to address the committee. I will make a brief statement on this topic.

There has been much comment in the recent past with regard to the EU sugar regime and the decisions taken in late 2005 to reform the sector. It is important to set out clearly the actual facts surrounding the issue, especially in light of some inaccurate comment which has circulated over the past few months. To do this, it will be necessary for me to explain the background to the EU sugar reform as well as to provide some detail on the reform measures themselves before dealing with the possibilities which now exist or may exist in the future for sugar production.

One of the key points to be made at the outset and which is central to much of the discussion on all the other issues is that the decision to close the Mallow factory and thus to cease sugar production was made by Greencore and Greencore alone. The Government and the Department did not have any power to prevent this.

The main purpose of the EU sugar market regime was to ensure a fair income to community farmers who grow beet, to ensure constant supplies to processors and to guarantee a supply of high-quality sugar at reasonable prices to EU industry and the domestic market. The regime had worked well in delivering on these objectives; however, the regime had also been subject to criticism to the effect that it had misallocated resources, hampered competition and did not sufficiently favour the interests of consumers, taxpayers and the environment and that it harmed developing countries. The sugar regime within the CAP has been in place since 1968 and when Ireland joined the EU in 1973 its sugar industry had to operate within that system. The system involved sugar quotas intended to underpin prices for sugar beet. Each member state was allocated a quota for manufactured sugar. The quotas were broken down into A and B quotas. The A quota was the basic sugar quota. Its purpose was to give each member state a share of the EU domestic market. The B quota was initially the margin to ensure that the A quota was filled. It also allowed the most competitive regions the possibility of some expansion. B quota sugar could be exported outside the EU with the benefit of export refunds. A third category, C, was sugar produced in excess of quota which had to be exported outside the EU without subsidy or otherwise incur a levy.

Under the regulations at the time, the quota had to be allocated to the sugar manufacturing enterprises in the member states. The Irish quota, which amounted to 200,000 tonnes, was allocated to Irish Sugar Limited, a subsidiary of Greencore, the only manufacturer of sugar in the country.

Irish Sugar Limited in turn placed contracts with farmers to grow a specific tonnage of sugar beet sufficient to manufacture the A and B quota quantities. To be absolutely clear, these quotas are attached to the finished processed product, which is sugar and is not associated with the basic raw material, namely, sugar beet. Consequently, all quotas are assigned by each member state to their respective sugar manufacturer.

While the sugar regime was adjusted and renewed on a few occasions, it had never been fundamentally reformed, unlike other sectors which were significantly changed under the MacSharry reforms, Agenda 2000 and more recently the mid-term review of the CAP. There was mounting internal EU pressures to bring the sugar regime into line with the other agricultural sectors which had by this time been subjected to dramatic reforms. The direction of these reforms was to move support away from production to a system of direct aid payments to farmers and lower prices for consumers

The former sugar regime expired at the end of June 2006, which coincided with a number of international pressures on the Community which also required significant changes to the rules. In proposing the reform, the Commission was responding to these also. These international pressures fell under three main headings - the Everything But Arms agreement, EBA, the WTO Doha Round of trade negotiations and the WTO panel finding against the EU on a complaint lodged by Brazil, Thailand and Australia.

First, the EBA, which was adopted in 2001, extended duty and quota free access to all products originating in 49 of the least developed countries, LDCs, except arms and ammunition. The EBA package was a response to claims that the least developed countries were getting a raw deal from global trade liberalisation. Sugar would have been a key product for these areas.

This initiative opened the EU market to all goods from 49 of the world's poorest countries except for military equipment. For sugar, the agreement which was to be gradually introduced from July 2009 onwards, committed the EU to allow duty free access for any quantities of white and raw sugar from these least developed countries. As the internal price of sugar in the EU was considerably higher than the world price, the provision of unlimited access for cheaper LDC sugar led to a significant surge in imports, thus impacting on the production and price in the EU.

Second, there was pressure generally at the time to liberalise trade under the Doha Round of WTO trade talks. Third, the observance by the EU of the current limits under the WTO of subsidised sugar exports was formally challenged by Brazil, Australia and Thailand. These countries complained that the EU was in breach of its WTO obligations. The ultimate decision against the EU by the WTO arbitrator meant that the EU had no option but to implement the WTO panel ruling by 22 May 2006, which added to the pressure for early action. As a direct consequence of this ruling, EU sugar production had to be cut by almost 5 million tonnes to ensure the EU export subsidy commitments were respected.

In 2003, the Commission published a communication on options for reform and submitted it to the Council. It is doing that again in the context of the current round of CAP reform. Three options - maintaining the status quo, reducing quotas or providing for the full liberalisation of the markets - were originally considered. The proposals ultimately introduced by the Commission for the reform of the EU sugar regime were based on a two-pronged approach. The first element was a significant reduction - 36% over two years - in the institutional price of sugar beet. The second element was the introduction of a temporary restructuring scheme, which would have provided a financial incentive for sugar processors to renounce their sugar quotas, dismantle their associated sugar processing plants and provide compensation to affected stakeholders.

The Minister for Agriculture and Food, who completely opposed the Commission proposals from the outset, was to the forefront of a group of Ministers from 14 like-minded member states. Throughout the reform negotiations, the Minister, having regard to the importance of the sugar beet industry in Ireland, made strenuous efforts to have the Commission's reform proposals modified in a way that might have led to the retention of an efficient sugar industry here. Ireland's stance led to a change in the proposed restructuring scheme, whereby compensation levels were maintained for two years before tapering off. When it became clear at the final meeting of the Council of Ministers that there was insufficient political support for the Irish position - in other words, the blocking minority of member states had dissipated - our efforts were redirected to achieve the best possible compensation package, which we eventually secured.

The sugar reform compensation package that was secured by Ireland encompassed restructuring aid, diversification aid and a single payment element. As a whole, it was worth €353 million, of which €220 million went to beet growers, €127 million went to Greencore and €6 million went to machinery contractors. The share of the package provided to beet growers comprised €44 million in diversification aid, €123 million in compensation over seven years through the single payment mechanism and €53 million in restructuring aid. Payments under restructuring and diversification aid were made in 2007 and 2008.

I emphasise the reform package that was agreed provided for the voluntary cessation of production. As the sole Irish sugar processor and the holder of the entire Irish quota allocation, Greencore chose to avail of the voluntary restructuring scheme, presumably after making its own assessment of the future viability of sugar processing in Ireland. The Government had no role in the making of this commercial decision by the company. However, the Minister exhorted the company to consider continuing production for the following two years, at least, during which time the level of restructuring aid would remain constant. Ireland had placed a major emphasis on this point during the EU negotiations. The company opted to renounce the quota immediately and to dismantle the last remaining Irish sugar factory at Mallow, in compliance with the conditions of the scheme.

To activate and draw down the restructuring aid, Greencore had to submit a restructuring plan, incorporating a social plan and an environmental plan. The social plan provided for early retirement and redundancy packages for the departing Mallow workers, as well as support services such as career counselling, financial and pension advice, pre-retirement programmes for those over the age of 50, job-seeking supports and "start your own business" programmes. The social plan was implemented in the first year of restructuring. The environmental plan is almost complete. The factory no longer exists.

The report of the European Court of Auditors on the 2006 sugar reform package, which was published last November, has been the subject of a great deal of comment in both Houses of the Oireachtas and a significant level of media coverage. As members will be aware, the report was addressed directly to the European Commission and not to Ireland in particular. The report contains a comprehensive 17-page response from the European Commission to the court's findings. The main conclusions of the report focused on the overall reform programme. First, the court suggested that the process did not fully ensure the future competitiveness of the EU sugar industry through a selective reduction of unprofitable production capacity. Second, the court concluded that while market stability has been assured thus far it has been achieved through the use of production quotas which currently set the maximum allowed internal production at a level of 85% of EU consumption.

Several points have been made in the public domain in regard to the report. It was suggested that Mallow might have remained open if the reform was not effected. The reality is that the reform was agreed for the reasons I mentioned and which the Commission reiterated, in detail, in its response in the report.

The European Court of Auditors report refers also to out of date information being used in the Commission's impact assessment. The Commission in answer explained the relevance of its impact assessment which it conducted in June 2005. The report states "this model does not require an analysis of profitability and prospects of every individual sugar producer in the EU. Therefore the Commission did not consider it necessary to collect such data on productivity for the model chosen". In other words, due to the voluntary nature of the proposed model the impact assessment was not of major significance.

The Commission's impact assessment identified "Ireland, Portugal, central Italy, Greece and parts of southern Spain" as member states where, as a result of proposed reforms, sugar production was likely to be drastically reduced or even phased out. This impact assessment of our vulnerability and that of the other countries identified proved to be correct.

However, none of this is to suggest that out of date information may have impacted on these negotiations. Nothing could be further from the truth. At all stages during the negotiations we brought to the table the most up to date information about the position in Ireland, including the fact that there was only one sugar processing plant operating in Ireland. The Commission was well aware that the Carlow plant had by then closed prior to the publication of the Commission's proposals.

As a result of the restructuring scheme, the overall EU sugar quota which was renounced amounted to some 5.2 million tonnes, of which the Irish quota contributed some 200,000 tonnes. EU sugar production is now concentrated in 18 member states, as opposed to 23 before the reform, which enjoy favourable agronomic conditions. It is also worth noting that more than 75% of production of EU sugar is accounted for by seven of these member states, namely - in order of the size of quota - France, Germany, Poland, UK, Netherlands, Belgium and Italy.

The Irish sugar quota has been renounced and compensation in accordance with the regulations has been paid to stakeholders. I make it clear that there is no mechanism under the present regulations that would allow for the reinstatement of the sugar quota to grow sugar beet in Ireland for the sugar industry. The current regime remains until September 2015 when the regulations will fall to be reviewed. Any proposal to review the EU sugar regime would be a matter for the European Commission in the first instance but the European Court of Auditors did not suggest reinstatement of quota in member states where they have been renounced. I also make it clear that it is not possible to produce sugar for export outside the EU. In other words, "out of quota" sugar cannot be produced. The production of sugar beet for ethanol is possible.

On the issue of sugar beet production for ethanol, I make the point that Greencore was contacted by the Department in March 2006 on the possibility of production of ethanol from beet using existing facilities in Mallow, as there was an option of availing of a partial dismantling scheme under the sugar reform mechanism. Greencore responded in April 2006 and stated "Greencore ... cannot justify commercial investment in ethanol production in Ireland from sugar beet".

The production of ethanol from a sugar beet feedstock would not be dependent on sugar quota becoming available. Sugar beet could be grown for such an enterprise, if regarded as commercially viable, in the same way that a quantity of sugar beet has always been grown here for fodder purposes. As far as I am aware, there is no legal or other impediment currently standing in the way of anyone who wishes to produce ethanol for sale in Ireland.

In general, the Department supports the development of the bioenergy feedstock within the agriculture sector and has a number of schemes in place, for example, to aid the production of miscanthus and willow for bioenergy as well as various pilot programmes in regard to the use of slurry and so on. The committee will be well aware that the Department is strongly supportive of alternative uses of agriculture systems to generate energy.

In conclusion, I reiterate Ireland did not favour the sugar reform proposals as they were brought forward by the Commission, but there was insufficient support to prevent their adoption at the end of the day. The agreement provided for voluntary cessation of sugar production, with the decision resting with individual operators. With the sugar quota having been renounced under the current regime, it is not possible to produce sugar in Ireland today.

Thank you, Mr. Moran. Deputy Doyle and Senator Bradford put down the motion so I call Deputy Doyle.

I thank Mr. Moran and his colleagues for attending this meeting. I will not spend much time on the history of what happened, but a couple of points arise from it. Notwithstanding the fact that the EU adopted a policy which allowed for free trade, in everything but arms, for the 49 least developed countries, some of the arguments that were used to justify the reduction of the sugar quota by 5.2 million tonnes have resulted in, and I will quote the United States figures, the price per pound for sugar rising from 13.93 US cents in December 2005 to 26.94 US cents in October 2010, with futures markets for this year at 23.71 US cents. The Court of Auditors has said that although the sugar reform was designed to be budget neutral, significant costs have arisen. The overall cost to the EU budget after the reform for the period 2007 to 2013 is likely to be in the region of €1.2 billion higher than before the reform.

We are talking about a quota that was allocated to an Irish semi-State company. This later evolved into a private company in which the Government held a golden share, although we are told that this golden share was of no great value from the point of view of an input into policy decisions taken by Greencore. We now do not have a sugar industry. We have seen the reports of the European Court of Auditors and there is a debate on the viability of re-starting a sugar beet or ethanol sector. Several meetings have been held in the heartland of the sugar beet producing area, which has more fertile land than the hills of County Wicklow in my constituency. It is an issue that must be given serious consideration.

Mr. Moran said that the Department is "supportive". Support can be passive or active. People have a genuine and passionate interest in redeveloping this sector for a host of reasons, not least of which is the climate change Bill which will be introduced in the Seanad tomorrow and which, if passed, will heap further obligations on the agriculture sector with regard to emissions reductions. This is an industry which could provide an outlet whereby we could reduce and mitigate some of our carbon obligations. I wish to clarify a point. There is nothing to stop us selling sugar within the EU under the free market, although perhaps not outside the EU, if it was produced in Ireland at any time in the future without quota. My understanding of what Mr. Moran said is that we can sell sugar on the EU market but we cannot export it outside the EU. Will he clarify that?

Mr. Tom Moran

I might not have made it totally clear but one cannot produce sugar unless one has a quota and one cannot produce sugar for export if one does not have a quota. It has been suggested in recent media comment that one could produce sugar provided one exported it out of the EU. That is not the case.

What can one do with it if one produces it?

Mr. Tom Moran

One needs a quota. Bioethanol can be produced from sugar beet but one cannot produce sugar in the absence of a quota.

It is important to be clear about that because it changes what I understood Mr. Moran to say earlier. I accept that I misunderstood the point. That is a key point for any industry. Given that we will wait until 2015 for a review, what has this initiative achieved given that world prices have gone up? Production has increased in countries at considerable cost to the environment without necessarily any great benefit to the EU or competitiveness, given that we had an EBA arrangement in place in the first instance. I will come back to that point.

Is the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food serious about being productively supportive, as opposed to being passively supportive, in looking at redeveloping the sugar beet industry here? It is a vital component in tillage rotation for many reasons. We have seen the complications the lack of a beet industry caused in the nitrates sector over the past 12 months. It took a while for that to be recognised. Given the manner in which it can support local rural economies, particularly in traditional areas, the whole sector needs to be examined. Forget about what has happened in the past, apart from learning for the future. The Department should send out a message that it is committed to looking at the redevelopment of the sugar beet industry here. We were world leaders in the smart economy of sugar beet planting, harvesting and production with Armer Salmon, but it is an industry that has gone by the by. People tend to forget that we were exporting machinery and expertise all over the world, in the way that MacHales, Moffats and Keenans are doing now. That has been lost, however.

We may talk about developing a smart economy but we had one in situ, yet it is gone. Notwithstanding what the former Minister said about the golden share, that is unacceptable. There is a lesson to be learned from this if we shelve off key industries. The same thing happened with the IFI plant in my constituency, in Arklow, which was possibly one of the better sites for a renewable energy refinery of some description, yet it was let go. Where would we be today if we had looked beyond our noses and seen that Greencore was responsible for a national quota? We let it go but we cannot allow that to happen again. We must be active in trying to reinstate this sector.

I welcome Mr. Moran and his colleagues to the joint committee. I want to address the issue of the special share. What is the distinction between a special share and a golden share? The suggestion by Mr. Moran is that the decision to cease production was laid firmly and squarely at Greencore's door, and neither the Department nor the Government of the day had any input into that decision because the quota was owned by Irish Sugar. My understanding of the import of the special share is that it was held by the Government. It had the same monetary value as any other share, but conditions were attached which meant that Greencore could not dispose of the controlling interests in Irish Sugar without the prior consent of the Minister of the day. The former Minister, Mr. Michael Smith, told the Dáil at the time that the special share in Greencore did not allow the Minister, acting on behalf of the State, to contribute to the decision made by Greencore on the renunciation of the quota. The proposed actions by Greencore, which required the Minister's consent under the terms associated with the special share, were related to any changes to certain specified articles of the articles of association - the voluntary winding up of Greencore, the sale of more than 49% of Irish Sugar plc, a subsidiary of Greencore, and the creation of a new class of share in Greencore. Legal advice obtained at the time was that they did not include provision for the Minister to direct Greencore in regard to the sugar quota. Greencore was the holder of the entire Irish sugar quota.

Irish Sugar, Cómhlucht Siúcre Éireann Teoranta, predates the foundation of the European Union and Ireland's accession to the European Union in 1973. It was set up by the State as a State company. For the life of me, I do not understand the mechanism in regard to the golden or special share. The Irish people and polity reasonably understood that the basis of that share was such that it would be held in perpetuity for the people and that it would have, by its very nature and character, conveyance of certain powers for the people. We have been told by the Secretary General and the Minister that is not the case and that was so relinquished. Therefore, the import, or net result, of that was that it was handed over lock, stock and barrel to a corporate entity which could do whatever it wanted to do, that the State, once it reached a decision in regard to the negotiation on the overhaul of the sugar regime, had no power or effect whatsoever and that a corporate entity, Greencore, had the ultimate power in terms of renouncing the quota. To my mind, that is nothing short of national sabotage.

What it signals is that the Government of the day literally handed over an industry which had been here since the 1920s and which was founded by Irish men and women for the people. It was effectively handed over to a corporate entity, the likes of which paid some of its representatives the sum of €4.6 million last year. The four top executives in Greencore, the food group, took home a cumulative €4.56 million last year, a rise of 55%. This industry has been sold from under the feet of the people and not even with a bang but with a whimper, to misquote the poet T. S. Eliot. That is the past.

I hail from the town of Mallow and believe there could be potential but we must be very realistic about what we want to achieve from this day onwards. I would like a straight answer to the following question. Can the State carry out a feasibility study to ascertain whether we can start to produce sugar again for its own marketability or ethanol in order that we can offset some of the costs of importation of undenatured ethanol from third countries like Brazil, which is what we are doing?

The other inherent contradiction is that for €20 million or so less, by way of compensation to cover dismantling costs, the State could have maintained the facility at Mallow. We have been told by various experts that if we are to kick-start the industry, it will cost us €500 million plus. If we had decided to retain the factory, could the State have stated to Greencore that it would take on that facility for a negotiable sum in order that the State, as an entity, could have done what it wanted with that factory?

The Oireachtas recently passed the biofuels obligation scheme. The biofuels obligation scheme is a transposition of a European directive, which basically means that we must put a certain percentage of biofuels into our petrol or diesel tanks on a daily basis. The irony of it is that we are importing that and Whitegate and the big oil companies started importing undenatured ethanol from third countries a number of years ago in anticipation of the transposition of this directive.

When the biofuels obligation scheme legislation came before the Dáil, the Labour Party put forward amendments to the Minister, Deputy Ryan, to ask that we would look at imposing a tariff on undenatured ethanol imports from third countries so that we could kick-start this industry. The irony of it is that there was a ready-made factory in Mallow which could have taken up that slack to produce ethanol, either from beet or from other sources, which would meet that particular need. That factory is gone. It seems to me that it is gone because of a lack of oversight, a lack of foresight and a lack of vision, which was the same type of vision which created the Irish sugar industry in the first instance.

How will we go back to basics and what can we do to restimulate this industry? Can we, as a starting point, bring all of the stakeholders together, including Government, all of the Departments involved and the farming organisations, to at least see if the State could fund the cost of a feasibility study to see if it is viable, either for ethanol production or for sugar production?

We are hampered by the fact that we cannot access quota, and that is a political decision that has been made. However, for the period after 2015 and for long-term planning - I refer not to two or three years hence but to 20 years down the road when there may be a renegotiation of the sugar quota and other such quotas - we could put in place some sort of a feasibility study so that we can start thinking in the long term about kick-starting an industry where farmers want to grow the beet and there is a generation of workers out there who are still young enough to have that knowledge to put together the infrastructure again. That is the kind of thinking we want to see.

There is nothing in Mr. Moran's statement that would give me any grounds for hope. Effectively, he stated that it was a commercial decision by the company and that the State abdicated by virtue of the fact that it had relinquished its special share or that special share having no particular weight. He also stated that it is not possible to produce sugar for export outside the EU and there is no mechanism under the present regulations that would allow for the reinstatement of the sugar quota for growing of sugar beet in Ireland.

Mr. Moran is not giving us any grounds for hope today. I want to hear from Mr. Moran, who is arguably a key decision maker as Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, which has a massive budget in this country. I want to hear a new kind of language coming from civil servants that asks if we can look at a feasibility study to see if we can kick-start this industry. Those are the kinds of statements my party wants to hear in this committee today.

I thank Mr. Moran for his presentation.

We are dealing with what I would call the giving away of a national asset, the sugar beet industry, in 1991 to a private company which became, for the company, a matter of profit rather than a matter of ensuring the livelihoods of a great many people by active association with the industry as well as the tremendous work that is done by rotation crops as a result of the sugar beet industry in this country.

It is treasonous, to say the least. The company was set up in 1926 in Mallow and, I think, in 1933 in Carlow. It provided a great deal for rural Ireland.

The dates provided by the Deputy are wrong.

Deputy Ned O'Keeffe should allow Deputy Ferris to continue.

The relevant dates are 1926 and 1933.

Those are the dates to which I referred. The company provided a great deal for the Irish people. It was subsidised by the State until the 1950s. When the industry became profitable - following our accession to the then European Economic Community, EEC, and the introduction of the quota system - it served rural Ireland very well. I was involved with the industry when I was a young man and I am aware of the tremendous support it provided to rural areas.

In 1991, Greencore took over Irish Sugar Ltd. In effect, however, the former no longer exists. The assets of Irish Sugar Ltd. - which were built up through the efforts of the producers and two of which were extremely valuable - fell into the hands of Greencore and were ultimately destroyed. As a result, there is no way back.

As Mr. Moran stated, the current regime is due to remain in place until 2015. It will only be then that we will be in a position to consider restructuring or whether some action might be taken in respect of the industry. Would it be possible, with State support, to reactivate the industry? Would the industry be viable if it were reactivated? Would it be possible to restore the quota system which obtained in the past?

In 2005, many Members of the Houses argued about the possibility of diversifying into ethanol production and referred to the use of beet in this regard. However, that possibility was overlooked. The buildings that were in place at that time, particularly those in Mallow, could have been used if a move to ethanol production had been pursued.

What was the purpose of the golden share? We were informed that its purpose was to protect the interests of the producers and the workers. We have now been informed that this was not the case. In the context of the negotiations on privatisation, and so on, did the golden share retain any value in respect of protecting the interest of producers or anyone else associated with the production of beet - those on the construction side and the workers in the factories, who were extremely dependent on the industry - during the period in question? The golden share does not appear to have any value, despite the fact that we were informed to the contrary.

Did anyone from the Department advise the Minister against supporting the Greencore claim for the bulk of the compensation money, particularly in light of the position that is clearly laid down in the EU guidelines regarding the purpose for which the compensation fund was intended? Did departmental officials highlight for the Minister the powers at his disposal - under the articles of association - to act in the public interest and to ensure that neither the quota nor the assets would be disposed of without our consent?

Mr. Moran stated that during the negotiations the Minister held out for as long as possible and that when it became apparent - in light of the cost factor involved and the likely level of return - that the industry was no longer viable, he opted for the best deal on offer. What is the value to producers of sugar being produced within the EU at present compared to the value which obtained in 2005? The producer at the time was told that because of the reduction in value as a result of opening the market, it would no longer be competitive. A total of 18 out of 23 states are still producers. How is it competitive for them but not for us?

I welcome the presentation. Not many people were interested in school when I attended but the first thing I learned was the locations of the four sugar factories in Ireland and I am still able to quote them - Tuam, Thurles, Carlow and Mallow. The sugar beet industry was founded in 1926 and it played an important role in the early years of the country while it was trying to find its feet. I regret what happened when the industry was closed down and we have gone over the reasons for that many times.

Mr. Moran circulated his submission and it outlines in black and white the reasons it was closed down. My understanding is sugar beet production was subsidised between 1926 and accession to the EEC in 1973 by the taxpayer and it was never viable without subsidies from the taxpayer or under the EU sugar regime. I could be taken to task on this and perhaps Mr. Moran will clarify this when he replies. It is regrettable that the industry was lost because we had the expertise among our farmers and it supported ancillary industries such as machinery supply, etc.

Let us call a spade a spade. We only had a quota of 200,000 tonnes of sugar beet a year and production was not viable unless it was subsidised. It was obvious from the changes proposed by the EU following objections outside the Union that the same system would not remain in place following WTO talks and so on. Would the industry have survived without the EU subsidies and sugar regime? I would love to have seen it survive and standing on its own feet. Expectations have been raised over the past number of months, in particular, because of the aspiration that the sugar industry could be reinvented. My understanding is sugar production is not viable. Perhaps the way to go is to grow sugar beet to produce ethanol and to generate renewable energy if it is viable.

Sugar beet is a costly crop to produce and to achieve results. There is hype in my constituency where the Carlow plant was strong and many growers were in place. Let us call a spade a spade and let us not build hype that there will be a magic solution and sugar beet will be produced again unless it is viable. I am told it is not viable to grow the crop and to compete on the open market. We do not have the opportunity anyway because Ireland has lost its sugar quota. Perhaps we could secure a quota in 2013 or 2015 under a review but would the industry be viable at the stage? If not, would subsidies be provided? These questions need to be asked.

The submission sets out what happened in black and white. The blame game can continue. I was involved in politics at the time the industry was closed down. Greencore made the decision and the suggestion that the golden share could have saved the industry has been trashed and kicked around many times. Having reviewed the submission, my understanding is the industry was not viable following the proposals that emerged from the WTO talks and the objections from countries outside the EU.

Mr. Tom Moran

I will deal with the issues raised. The Department and the Minister were always fully aware of the importance of the sector, its contribution, the value and importance of the crop as a break crop in tillage, the profitability indications throughout the time when we had a sugar industry and the fact that the industry was rural based, as Deputy Sherlock said, in places where it is difficult to have that kind of industry. I remember the four factories just as well as Deputy Aylward. My own family had connections with the Tuam factory. No one was in any doubt about the importance of the sugar industry. However, I emphasise that the approach of the Commission to the set of proposals to reform the sugar industry was strongly opposed by Ireland, for those very reasons.

There were two key element in the Commission's proposals. There was a carrot and a stick. To be absolutely clear, there were three elements. There was a dramatic reduction in the reference prices, 39% over a fairly short period. The projected price for 2009-10 was a minimum of about €26. There could have been additions to that from the company, but they are the basic reference prices. The three elements of the reform the Commission put forward were: a very dramatic reduction in price; a shift to direct payments to farmers - this was in line with the reforms across all sectors, including the livestock sector; and an optional buy-out of quota, which the users of quotas could opt to do. Companies that were the users of quotas did not own the quotas. The quotas were vested in them. Those were the three elements.

The commercial decision taken by the company - the same process would have been gone through in other member states - involved the company looking forward at its own operations and options and deciding, in the light of what was clearly coming down the track, whether it could see itself continuing to operate in that kind of scenario. The company clearly took its own decision in that regard. That is how that came about. There was also the possibility that if the reform did not work, given that the quantity of sugar had to come down, there would be even further reductions in quota on top of that. That was always in the background.

It has been said that the sugar industry was always subsidised. When we started producing sugar it was in a very regimented regime, with export refunds, quota and even private storage. It was a very rigid operation of the common agricultural policy. It was one of the older regimes, and well supported. It was easy enough to operate within a fairly confined area with a limited supply, export subsidies and even the possibility of selling C sugar on the open world market, depending on the volatility or otherwise of the market.

We were well aware of all that. That is why we opposed the Commission's position. In the final stages of the negotiations - I do not particularly wish to go back but I am just answering the questions - it became very clear that this was going to happen anyway and the logical and sensible thing to do at that stage was to make absolutely sure that, whatever else happened, there would be an adequate and funded restructuring pot of money available in the event of that decision being made. It was that which led to a total package of €353 million becoming available, of which €127 million was paid to Greencore, €220 million to growers and €6 million to contractors. That was a sensible, tactical thing to do. It did not take away from the fact that Ireland was strongly against any threat to its sugar industry, which it valued all along, as the negotiations were happening.

Was there consultation with Greencore during the negotiation process?

Mr. Tom Moran

There was consultation. These proposals, which started off as a Commission communication, had been on the table for some time. There was consultation with farmers and the views of Greencore were well known at that time. Greencore made its decision after the package was put on the table. This was an EU framework for which it had every right to apply. As a country, we could not block them.

Mr. Moran stated that-----

I must ask Deputy Ferris not to interrupt. The Deputy may ask a supplementary question later.

I would like an answer to a specific question for my own benefit.

I will allow a brief question.

Mr. Moran stated that there was consultation with Greencore. Was Greencore in favour of accepting the package before the Government took its decision?

Mr. Tom Moran

I am not clear what Government decision the Deputy is talking about.

The decision to accept the package. Mr. Moran stated that the package was Greencore's and its alone. Was Greencore advocating acceptance of the package during the negotiations?

Mr. Tom Moran

No. The aim at Council was to get the maximum possible gain for the Irish stakeholders. Greencore was not involved or consulted in regard to how this would operate. It took its decision afterwards, when it had the full knowledge of the package available. The full extent of the package only became available in the final stages of the negotiations.

The role of the special share and what it would have done was referred to. I realise that that is in the past. However, I would like to put the record straight on this matter. The special share would not have allowed the Government to intervene in the decision by Greencore to renounce its quota. That was the strong legal advice available to us. It should not be forgotten that this regime was an EU legally provided scheme which Greencore, like any other processor in any other country, could have availed of. The idea that the State could have compelled Greencore to continue to produce and not to renounce its quota does not stand up. That was and remains our position in that regard.

While I take the point made by Deputy Sherlock, I am confident in saying that the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is not lacking in vision. We specialise in looking ahead and have in recent years done so quite successfully. The Food Harvest 2020 document is widely acknowledged to be a progressive and visionary document which sets out how we will drive the sector, including our newly acquired fisheries sector. I accept the point that this type of vision in required, particularly in this era. We are well up for it. In regard to the specific application of that vision, including in respect of the feasibility study, ultimately the decision to invest and develop ethanol production from beet will be a commercial decision. There is no question about that. That decision will require the surety of supply of beet. Deputy Sherlock will be aware, given his connections with the beet industry and the nature of beet, of the importance of the location of beet producers to a facility. Some of the efficiencies of the big sugar factories, such as those around northern France and so on, are derived from the fact that producers are literally within a stone's throw of the processing factory. The further away one is from a factory, the greater the expense in terms of producing and hauling beet around the country.

The suggestion that a feasibility study be undertaken is a good idea. A feasibility study carried out by Cork County Council in regard to using the Mallow facility to produce ethanol came up with some interesting findings. However, that factory is no longer in operation. A feasibility study is an idea well worth pursuing. It would have to deal with issues such as the scale of production of ethanol, where else it is produced, how it would compete and the extent to which the minimum quantities required for bioethanol production here could be met from domestic production. I am strongly in favour of a feasibility study and suggest that in the event of proposers coming forward to produce ethanol from beet, discussions could be had with Enterprise Ireland as to the extent to which this would be worth pursuing from the economic point of view. Therefore, I would not say the proposal is negligible at all.

Would the Department consider engaging with the stakeholders interested in putting forward proposals or at least consider having an exchange of views with viable stakeholders who wish to kick-start projects? I accept at face value and in good faith the offer made of support with regard to approaches to Enterprise Ireland, but will the Department engage with stakeholders on the issue of the feasibility study? Will either the Secretary General or his colleagues within the Department become involved in direct consultation?

Mr. Tom Moran

We would have no difficulty in becoming actively engaged in that kind of process. I would be more than willing to undertake discussions with Enterprise Ireland, for example, to see how it views the possibility of helping or encouraging a feasibility study. As I mentioned when commenting on the vision of the Department, we have rowed in strongly behind the new energy approach and the use of agriculture products and techniques to develop energy. For example, we currently fund research projects to the value of €15 million in the energy and bioenergy fields. This research deals mainly with energy production from solids such as biomass, willow and miscanthus rather than bioethanol. Therefore, it is something that could definitely be pursued. Given the kind of considerations I have mentioned and given there has been significant comment that has been less than accurate - recently I read that people believe they can produce sugar and export it - it is important these kinds of ideas be dealt with and addressed up front at the early stage. It is equally important that the facts on bioethanol and the feasibility of production be put up front and examined clinically to see whether it is possible to go ahead with production here.

I agree with Mr. Moran that the point about sugar production for sugar's sake must be examined and clarified. When a feasibility study is being carried out, we must look at the current situation with regard to the challenges for world food supply and consider whether it would be feasible to develop an industry on foot of beet being a dual product - both energy and food - without compromising the food situation. An article was published last week which suggested that every acre that is planted to produce fuel means that somebody loses out on food. Things have moved on since 2005 and if it is the case that we can produce from an acre something that will be more viable by producing both food and energy, then we should consider that honestly. Just because it has been decided that it cannot be done, if it would be viable we must reconsider it and decide that it should be done. That is the point I am making about the viability of an industry. If the feasibility study is to be honest, we must look at all the challenges. Deputy Sherlock mentioned the bio-fuels obligation Bill. We might, for instance, have to source 80% of our bio-fuels from locally produced Irish bio-fuels. Perhaps schools, hospitals and local authorities would be obliged to buy a certain amount of their fuel, such as ethanol, from locally produced bioenergy crops such as miscanthus.

The Deputy is being unfair to other members who wish to contribute.

I only wish to make the point that if a feasibility study is to be honest, it should focus on whether Ireland can viably produce energy and food because there is competition between the two.

Mr. Tom Moran

I acknowledge that the Chairman is under time constraints. On the feasibility issue, the Department is more than willing to participate in the study and share whatever information and expertise we have. I do not necessarily envisage that it will be done by the Department. Expertise is also available in the Departments of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and Environment, Heritage and Local Government. A good deal of work needs to be done to dispel the myth and deal with the issues referred to by Deputy Doyle. It is well known that some of the food price peaks in 2007 were directly caused by a change from food production to energy production in the United States. This matter could be pursued.

I thank Mr. Moran and his colleagues for attending the meeting. Most of the issues I had proposed to raise have been discussed. The current position is that a number of farmers are optimistic that the sugar beet industry can be regenerated. We need to have a realistic, quick and conclusive debate on this issue. The question of whether we will have a sugar industry should not become the modern-day equivalent of draining the River Shannon. We need to have the facts and figures and then engage in a short, sharp debate that produces conclusive results. For this reason, I would be pleased to support a feasibility study being carried out in conjunction with the Departments of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food must take a proactive approach to this issue. Mr. Moran stated the Department will engage with stakeholders. While this is crucial, it should take the lead in this matter and set a target of having the study and a report thereon completed within six to 12 months. We must not have an endless debate because the farming and agricultural communities believe the sugar industry will be re-established and I hope this belief will be translated into reality. For this reason, a feasibility study should commence quickly.

While I do not wish to go over history as it would be pointless to do so - we must learn and move on - I ask Mr. Moran to clarify his comment that it is not possible to produce sugar for export outside the European Union. I have read reports indicating that companies and individuals have expressed a belief that it is possible to export sugar outside the EU at a certain price. Why does Mr. Moran believe it is not possible? Who is preventing such exports and why?

We need to establish at this meeting a realistic picture of the current position. We need to send out a positive message about what can be done, the feasibility study, the options available and the possibility of a sugar-energy industry being developed in this country. I ask Mr. Moran to clarify his remark on exports in light of the different view we have heard expressed. It appears statements have been made at public meetings that companies would purchase sugar on the world market. Who is preventing exports? It is important we have clarification on this matter.

The starting point of this debate must be certainty and realism. It should be possible to regenerate an industry based on sugar and energy and, possibly, heat and power. The purpose of the feasibility study should be to establish whether this is the case. The study should commence and report quickly and should not take years to complete.

We are on the verge of having a new Government. I hope we are on the verge of new thinking, not just in politics but in the public service. This is the sort of project that the next Government and the public service should put their heart and soul into. They should come up with a quick decision as to what can be done and do it. Let us get to work on the feasibility study. Could I have a very concise answer to my question on selling sugar to the market outside the EU? The delegates are saying it cannot be done although we read in various media reports that it can. What are the facts?

I welcome the delegation and thank it for briefing us on this matter. Mr. Moran has taken a rather simplistic approach to what has happened. Some of the language used in his statement, such as the contention that the "Government and the Department did not have any power to prevent this", certainly seems simplistic. I could not imagine the Department of Agriculture in France or the French Minister for Agriculture adopting such a stance. We have seen over the years how the French defend their farmers in the face of adversity.

Mr. Moran referred to myths and inaccurate comments. What the farmers and beet producers in Ireland are saying is that a right to produce was taken away from them. This has been copper-fastened and proven by the European Court of Auditors in its decision. It is interesting to note the difference in language between what Greencore was saying at the time in question and what is being said now. The fact is that Ireland is an example of a country where an efficient processor was closed down. That is contrary to the terms of the scheme, as Mr. Moran well knows. What occurred smacks of the banking scandal in this country in that, as we dig deeper into the matter and obtain more information, Mr. FitzPatrick is replaced by Mr. Dilger. As I, Mr. Moran and everyone in the country knows, the real reason Greencore got out of beet production and was allowed to do so by the Minister and the Department was its greedy desire to get into the property market and what it regarded as the value of the plants that existed. Unfortunately, at the time in question, Irish farmers did not have a regime strong enough to defend themselves. Mr. Moran has been asked to explain the golden share. I am not satisfied with the explanation he gave. This country had a right of veto in the national interest. What happened that right?

It is very legitimate for people to make comments on this issue, whether the Department considers them inaccurate or not. It has hurt the people of rural Ireland, including the agricultural community. They want to know what the Department and the Minister are doing to restore the industry, not for the sake of doing so but to restore the right taken from the people.

Mr. Moran stated that the sugar regime came within the CAP in 1968. This is the only reference he made to the CAP. As we know, the policy is now under review. Mr. Moran stated the Department is always proactive and positive. He should tell me today what it has done to raise this issue in respect of CAP reform and the possibility of restoring an industry of national interest. It is vital that this comes within the terms of the CAP. The Department has the opportunity to raise the issue, as does the Minister. The farmers of Ireland are ready and willing to supply the product.

It is interesting to note the food industry has expressed serious concern about its difficulty in gaining access to sugar of sufficient quality and quantity in the market in 2011. When it speaks about quality sugar, it speaks about beet sugar, not cane sugar or other types of sugar. The European Union is now dependent on imported sugar, which was not the case at the time of the reforms.

It is interesting to note the haste with which Greencore closed the factory in Carlow. The closure was negotiated on the basis of having one sugar plant in the country. Greencore, the Department and the people know the reason was purely associated with property speculation that would result in the making of billions, instead of millions, of euro. That is the kernel of the problem. I am anxious to know Mr. Moran's response because that is the allegation being levelled across the length and breadth of the country.

Mr. Moran referred to the compensation the beet producers and the factory received. Greencore got the bulk of that. One of the fears throughout the country concerns what will happen in regard to this compensation and whether it will have to be repaid. My understanding was that it was for a lack of production and for being forced out of business - illegally forced out of business, according to the European Court of Auditors. Mr. Moran might comment on the situation in regard to compensation.

I feel passionate about this issue and there are many other questions I would like to ask Mr. Moran. In re-establishing the sugar industry in Ireland, the two main elements required are finance, mainly from the private sector, and EU willingness to be flexible on quotas, which I believe can be renegotiated under the Common Agricultural Policy reform. Mr. Moran referred in his statement to being proactive. A combined plant for sugar and bioethanol in Norfolk in the United Kingdom received grant aid of Stg£120 million. Has the Department negotiated with the European Investment Bank or put questions to that bank or the European Commission in regard to possible funding being made available to the private sector and the farming sector to re-establish this industry?

I welcome the Secretary General, Mr. Moran. This issue was very hard fought at the time. We on this side of the House argued very hard with the then Minister to save the day. It was not her fault or our fault that it was lost; it was a decision from Europe. Will Mr. Moran explain what happened at the WTO negotiations? The issue rolled on from there in 2003, as Mr. Moran noted in his opening statement, and I would like further elaboration. What did Ireland do there? While we were part of the European delegation at the negotiations, did we even cough? Did our representatives even cough to let others know we were there and that this issue was important for us?

Mr. Moran clearly makes the point that Ireland can no longer grow beet or sell sugar. Why can Brazil and Thailand sell sugar when they are not part of the EU and have no alliance to any of its members? Looking at what has happened, this was expected to help the small nations of the world, such as Antigua and other Caribbean nations which produce sugar, but production has ended up in the hands of major countries such as Australia, Thailand, Brazil and some African countries, which is not in keeping with good EU policy.

I question the viability of sugar beet for ethanol production. As Mr. Moran is aware, sugar beet contains a very high percentage of water, perhaps 90%. Research has been done on this issue, which is known. Ethanol production would not be profitable, therefore, although I do not want to get tied up in other items that are not profitable in regard to ethanol production, such as maize and wheat, which we now know are not as attractive for ethanol production as was thought five or six years ago. This was practised in the mid-western states of the United States and cost far more than was bargained for. Has research been done on this issue?

Ireland had a very bad yield because no research was done by Teagasc. Our yield was on average approximately 20 tonnes of washed beet per acre with a 16% sugar content, compared to the UK, which had a yield of approximately 30 tonnes per acre with a 20% sugar content. There is a huge difference in terms of returns, margins and profitability for the factory and the farmer. If the factory gets more sugar from the crop, there is a better return and production costs are much lower. We did not keep pace. Why was our crop yield not on a level with that of our neighbour? Deputy Coonan mentioned Norfolk, which is a beet growing shire in the UK. He spoke quite a bit about it and he had done his research well.

I thank the Deputy for giving me credit.

I have to give him credit.

Much nonsense has been spoken about the golden share. Once we lost the quota, the golden share was worthless on paper. The people who lost out in the sugar beet industry were the farmers who owned the quota. Is there anything similar to the quota now? We also have a milk industry with a quota, and this raises questions. If something happens the milk industry tomorrow morning and given that the quota will change from 2013 to 2015, will it be as valuable then as it is now? The sugar beet quota has gone and the golden share has gone.

We can never justify the loss of the sugar beet industry. It was a break crop and it was very important for cereal production. Over the past 12 months we have seen the importance of cereal production to this country. We produce more than 2 million tonnes of cereals, but we could produce much more. Many people were expert in growing wheat, which is important for the baking and flour industries. We have little or no flour milling left here. We have the grounds to do it, but we cannot do it due to rotation. There is no break. There is a necessity for a new root crop to be established to help the soil for cereal growing. The world population is expanding and cereal is very important because people need flour and so on. Cereal production seems to be more important than meat production. Ireland will be on the back foot again due to a lack of cereal development.

Can Mr. Moran and his Department carry out some research on this? Teagasc is researching everything except what it should research. Some research should be done to help the farming community create a break crop. Sugar beet was so important for the grain growing areas of the east and south east of this country. I come from north Cork, where much of the food industry is based. Farmers and workers in north Cork were employed in the industry, but there is no industry left and we have no replacement. We have fought hard for a replacement, but it has not happened.

It all started with the negotiations in 2003. What did we do out there? Who was there? Did we even cough?

Thank you Deputy. I will now take non-members of the committee. I ask them to be as brief as possible.

Thank you Chairman for allowing me speak. I welcome the officials from the Department, but I share the frustration of others at what they have told us today. Perhaps it is because we are five or six years after the event, but there seem to be some extraordinary statements in the report outlined by Mr. Moran. The last few pages deal specifically with the report of the European Court of Auditors, but they do not refute the arguments within that report. No specific detail of any nature is given. On page six, he mentioned that Greencore, presumably after its own assessment of the future viability of sugar, made its decision to withdraw from the sector. I share the view of Deputy Coonan that people in Greencore saw euro signs when they knew there was a large pot of compensation for them as the quota holders. They also knew the potential value of a couple of hundred acres in the centre of Carlow town - I am not as familiar with the site in Mallow - and they decided that the short-term gain from those two sources would be much more beneficial to their shareholders than the long-term prospects of keeping sugar production active in Ireland. It is a legitimate objective for any private institution to hold, but I think that is what they did. For a Department official to come in here and make that statement is to say something that I utterly refute. I come from a part of the country in Kilkenny where sugar was produced for generations, and I agree most of the time with Deputy Aylward on agricultural issues, but he made the point that sugar production was not viable. Many sectors within the agricultural industry are supported by the Common Agricultural Policy - we would be closing down all of them if we were to use that particular criterion. There is a legitimate expectation on the part of generations of people who have worked in the sugar beet sector in my area and in other parts of the State that the industry would be maintained.

Deputy Sherlock referred to the appalling lack of foresight shown by the Department. Fine Gael held countless meetings in Carlow at the time of the closure of the plant at which producers, staff and even politicians pointed to all the indicators showing that the cost of sugar on the international market would increase substantially in the coming years. Deputy Doyle observed earlier that the price of sugar is now twice what it was three or four years ago. How did the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food overlook the opportunity identified at the time by producers for a viable future for sugar production in this country? It is an entirely different matter to talk about subsidisation in the 1950s. If one is now achieving a price of 28 or 29 cent on the international market then one has a viable sector.

In regard to the golden share, my understanding is that it did not afford the Government a vote in terms of Greencore itself. Will the delegates expand on that? It has been stated that once the Government lost its blocking majority a tactical decision was made. I understand how that may have been seen as necessary but I do not accept it. As Deputy Coonan pointed out, in France and other countries such a change of tack would not have been accepted. The delegates referred to this tactical decision and that the objective was to seek the best possible deal for the stakeholders, but they also indicated that Greencore did not lobby for compensation even though it was the largest stakeholder. There is a direct contradiction here - was this decision taken for the benefit of stakeholders or was it not? It is incredible that Greencore would not have argued for the compensation route and for the closure of the sugar sector. It is my firm belief that it saw the possibility of vast enrichment, particularly on the back of the value of the Carlow site, and that this is the reason the facility was sold. Five years later it still makes me desperately angry to contemplate the closure of the sector. However, current market prices point to the possibility of relaunching it. Perhaps in 2015, when the current deal ends, we may be in a position to resume production of sugar in this country.

As I understand it, the Mallow plant was dismantled in accordance with the conditions of compensation. That makes sense, but surely it would also have made sense for the plant to be retained on the proviso that it be used not for sugar production but for ethanol production. I do not see how that would have impacted on the amount of compensation for which Greencore and the producers were eligible.

This issue has aroused great interest in my part of the country, most recently sparked by the report of the European Court of Auditors. The Secretary General referred to out-of-date information being used in the Commission's impact assessment. I assume it is agreed that this was the case, because the Secretary General did not dispute that point and the European Court of Auditors found it as a fact. Will the Secretary General confirm whether that is accepted as fact? According to the document presented by the delegates, the impact assessment led to a certain decision and identified Ireland, Portugal, central Italy, Greece and parts of southern Spain as member states where sugar production was likely to be reduced or phased out. This was referred to as an impact assessment of our vulnerability.

The Secretary General should explain the word "vulnerability". Did the impact assessment, which was based on out-of-date information, lead to a decision that Ireland was vulnerable in some way? The Secretary General should tease this issue out a little for members because it is somewhat unclear, to me at least. In addition, he should explain how the United Kingdom, Greece and Finland managed to retain their sugar industries while we did not. The Secretary General noted in his presentation that "EU sugar production is now concentrated in 18 member states ... which enjoy favourable agronomic conditions". Is it not true that Ireland also has such favourable conditions and that conditions here are even more favourable than in some countries which retained their industries? Why did Ireland end up with no industry, while other countries retained theirs? What happened to allow this to take place? Is the European Court of Auditors correct that Ireland was judged to be vulnerable - the Secretary General might explain what this means - because of out-of-date information used by the Commission?

The Secretary General also points out "The Commission was well aware that the Carlow plant had ... closed prior to the publication of the Commission's proposals". Does the closure of the Carlow plant imply that the Minister and officials went to Brussels to negotiate but had one less chip with which to negotiate? In other words, had the Carlow plant been open at the time of the negotiation, would I be right to suggest the Department could have proposed the closure of one of the plants while keeping the other open? The closure of Carlow prior to the negotiations suggests to me that a clever game of poker was being played by someone. In other words, the advantage we may have had was given away before the negotiations began.

As for the golden share, was the prior written consent of the Minister given to close the Carlow plant? I have to hand a letter from the then Minister for Agriculture and Food dated 31 May 2006 which states, "As Minister ... I hold a single [golden] share in Greencore [with] conditions attached, which means that Greencore cannot dispose of the controlling interest in Irish Sugar Ltd or its sugar assets without the prior written consent of the Minister". Was such consent in writing given for Carlow to be closed? In addition, was such consent given when Mallow was closed and dismantled? I also have to hand a legal opinion that quotes article 2(d) of the articles of association of Greencore. It states:

that without the consent of their Minister for Agriculture, no sale, transfer or disposal of ... any sugar quota, any properties, lands and premises including the lands at Carlow and at Mallow can take place without the consent of the Minister for Agriculture. The same restriction applies in relation to the plant machinery, fixtures and fittings used in the production of processing of sugar in the State.

The Secretary General might explain article 2(d) of the company’s articles of association. In addition, he should comment on Petition 0386/2007 to the European Parliament. If he is unaware of the petition at present, he might provide members with his view on it at a later time. A complaint was made to the Committee on Petitions of the European Parliament that all these matters were mishandled and as this complaint was allowed to go forward by the aforementioned committee, I seek the Secretary General’s views in this regard.

To what extent was the value of the property in Mallow and Carlow a factor in the closure of these plants? Detailed proposals were produced to develop Mallow in particular almost as a new town at the height of the property bubble. I welcome the idea of the feasibility study and the Department's support for it. The Department should be proactive in this regard as it is important. Is the Secretary General aware that Bioverda Limited was interested in investing in a large-scale bioethanol facility that would use thick sugar juices as a feedstock in Mallow if it became available at the time? Was the Department aware of the position, where the company was waiting in the wings to be invited when the plant was available? To what extent were the four options available explored by the Commission? The four options included using ethanol entirely or in a 50-50 split.

I welcome Mr. Moran to the committee. As a former employee of the sugar company and someone who received early employment in the sugar factory in County Carlow, I remember well the advantages provided by the industry and the spin-off effect to counties Carlow, Kildare, Wicklow, Laois and Wexford. Its closure was devastating.

I remember a debate in the Dáil at the time where the Minister stated that she had a meeting with Greencore on the Thursday before the announcement was made. Did Mr. Moran attend that meeting? The Minister was informed by e-mail on the following Tuesday that Greencore had made the decision to close the sugar company in County Carlow. This is something similar to what we now hear about the Taoiseach visiting Mr. FitzPatrick. At the time, the Minister stated that Greencore did not notify her or discuss it with her on the day of the meeting despite the fact that consideration had been given to it and a decision had been made. Was Mr. Moran present at that meeting and does he have a recollection of it?

Regarding negotiations, Deputy Stanton raised the question of whether we are the only country that gave up an efficient and profitable industry in these negotiations. Is it true the Finnish Government stepped in to protect its industry despite the fact that it had lower sugar beet yields than Ireland? Is it not amazing that we blinked? Did we blink before Finland stepped in to defend the industry or did we blink at the last minute when all the negotiations had been completed and countries had made up their minds on what aspect they would follow? From the statement of Mr. Moran, it seems that Ireland made a decision that compensation was the best route to go and that we had no friends in Europe on that occasion. If Finland was able to defend its position, there were some friends around the table on that occasion.

I agree with Deputy Noel Coonan on the belief that there was a goldmine in County Carlow. The only reflection of it now, which makes me sick every time I go by it, is the lump of dirty rust that is the limekiln, standing as a reminder of what was a wonderful industry. It is an insult to the farming community and the people who got a spin-off benefit and a good living that Greencore has left that image of what was a wonderful industry in the area. Does the Department have any knowledge of where the two sites are, their position in respect of Greencore and whether Greencore has total ownership of both sites? Does the Department have any say on this?

Regarding 2015, I am delighted that Mr. Moran stated to Deputy Sherlock that he will look positively at a feasibility study. It is vital for the farming community that we search for alternatives because if anything happens to the grain crops in my area, we will be in trouble. This is an alternative about which the Department can do something. If it is as positive as the delegates claim, let us see the money for a feasibility study.

In the context of the review of quotas for 2015, what has the Department done to ask other countries whether our quota will be wiped out? Will we have to rethink the positivity of the sugar industry in light of Deputy Doyle's comment that the cost of sugar has not decreased for Irish consumers? Have we done anything to put forward our case on what the review should contain?

Mr. Tom Moran

I will be delighted to deal with as many questions as I can. When I indicated that some of the commentary was inaccurate, I did not refer to this committee but to public comments that could cause people within the sector to hold inaccurate views of what is possible. In other words, circulation of the idea that sugar could be produced and exported outside of quota gives people the wrong impression.

Senator Bradford asked a specific question about sugar exports. Under the present regime, sugar production within the EU operates within a legal framework which, as in the dairy and beef sectors, applies certain structures and rules. In the case of sugar, these rules clearly include sugar. The quotas for the A and B categories of beet production have been amalgamated and sugar cannot be produced outside that quota even if it is intended for export to non-EU countries. Sugar beet can be processed for ethanol without reference to the quota regime, however.

Members commented on the overall approach to CAP reform. I noted that sugar was among the range of products covered by CAP. We are at present in the early stages of the review of CAP for the period from 2013 and the communication document which the Commissioner previously presented to this committee makes one reference to sugar. It states:

In the sugar and isoglucose sectors, the current regime is set to expire in 2014/15. Several options for the future, including a non-disruptive end of the quotas at a date to be defined, need to be examined to bring about increased efficiency and greater competitiveness for the sector.

The communication primarily deals with the broad architecture of CAP, in other words, the direct payment system and rural development funding. It does not specifically address the various sectors. Its only reference to sugar is to note that the sector will be reviewed in 2014 or 2015.

It will be reviewed in 2014-15.

I do not think the question of a veto arose in this situation. There have been a number of comments - in fact, I also referred to it - on the tactical change in the negotiations. This is related to the fact that ultimately, the decision to renounce the quota and thus end sugar production in Ireland was made by Greencore, not by anybody else - not the Government, the Minister or the Department. An assessment was made and the decision was taken to enhance the compensation package, in the event of its being needed, in the final stages of the negotiation. It made sense to ensure that in the event of sugar production being ended, the stakeholders, including growers, and the country as a whole would get the maximum compensation. It was always clear that the Department and the Minister favoured the continuation of sugar production. We were adamant that the compensation available should not taper off immediately but should be kept at the same level for two years in an attempt to prolong the manufacture of sugar, so that no one would be forced out quickly.

Why did they use-----

The Deputy may ask his question in a minute.

Mr. Tom Moran

On the question of outdated data, I would like to be clear that this was a reference, in the European Court of Auditors, to the Commission. It claimed the Commission used out-of-date data in formulating its proposals. The Commission identified in its impact assessment countries which, in its view, would be unable to sustain price reductions to the extent anticipated. That was the Commission's assessment and had nothing to do with a decision by any company within a member state to avail, as was its right, of the compensation. No matter whether that impact assessment had been published or whether it was up to date, it was up to the individual company to decide to avail or not to avail of whatever package there was, and Greencore did so. We were clear that we did not want that to be the case, but the company took the decision.

There was no question of the Department, or anyone involved in the negotiations, using information that was not up to date. That is not what was at issue. The suggestion from the Court of Auditors was that the Commission may have used information that was not up to date in putting together its impact assessment, but that impact assessment had nothing to do with the decision of the company to avail of a compensation package. That was a matter for the company to decide. One would have to assume-----

As the Financial Regulator did before the banking crisis, they turned a blind eye to it.

I will take one supplementary question at the end from each member.

We will give lots of them.

Mr. Tom Moran

The decision made by the company was based on its information. Comments were made asking why the company would have decided to do as it did, and there were references to its own property holdings and its assessment of their future value. That is a matter for the company; it is not for the Department to become involved or have a view in this regard. What members have said - that it would clearly have taken everything into account - is a reasonable assessment.

The Commission's impact assessment, in which it designated a number of countries that would, in its view, be vulnerable to future change, was based on the economic viability of beet production based on a projected downward trend in prices as was being planned by the Commission.

That information-----

I will take supplementary questions at the end. I will not have people coming in and out like yo-yos.

Mr. Tom Moran

I cannot really add to comments made about the role of the special share. The purpose of the special share is set out clearly. It requires the Minister's consent for any change in specified articles of the articles of association, the voluntary winding up of Greencore plc, the sale of more than 49% of Irish Sugar, the disposal of more than 20% of specified sugar assets, the creation of a new class of shares in Greencore and in the building up by one shareholder or a consortium of more than a 30% shareholding in Greencore. It was different in this situation because there was an EU regulatory framework within which the company had decided to avail of a compensation package allowed for its share of the sugar quota and ceasing production. The position was that the special share did not empower the Minister to become involved and force the company to do other than what it had decided.

There was ongoing consultation and interaction with the various stakeholders in the run-up to the reform, as there would be in any CAP reform process and as there is now. However, the decision by the company to cease production would not have been known until it was made by the company. As I have stated several times, it would not have been the choice of the Department or the Minister, which is why we argued strongly to keep the level of compensation constant for several years and to spin it out further to ensure it did not simply end when it ended. We have been strong on that line.

Many valid points have been made and we will take them on board. The points made on Teagasc and the need for research into alternative break crops are very important given the importance of cereals. Two elements in respect of the WTO must be considered. One of the factors contributing to the Commission's proposals was that both it and the Presidency at the time sought to have the reform concluded in advance of the conclusion of the Doha Round. The Doha Round was aiming towards a conclusion but it did not take place. It failed at the end of 2005 in Hong Kong. The reform of the sugar industry was such that it had to fit in with future WTO commitments. Arguably the more important WTO element in this set of issues was the fact that the EU sugar regime was found to be illegal under WTO rules by a panel. Even when this was appealed, the EU failed. Two things were found to be illegal and incompatible with EU rules. First, produce from the C quota sugar category was being exported without refunds and was not counted in the overall eligible export quantity. This is quite technical but it is important. Second, when counting the EU's production of sugar for export, the sugar imported preferentially from the African, Caribbean and Pacific, ACP, countries was not offset. These were two technical points on which the EU's sugar regime failed under WTO rules. The EU lost and as a result it had to adjust its supply base. This led to a 5 million tonne reduction in the amount of sugar it was permitted to produce. Hence, the taking out of sugar under the buy-out scheme and the reduction of price. That is where these elements fit in. This was not connected to anything done in the Doha Round because that round has not concluded yet.

Deputy Stanton referred to the closure of the factory in Carlow. That is an interesting point. The question specifically related to whether it would have helped the situation. It is probable it would have provided a greater degree of flexibility to respond to the proposals. However, the company decided to proceed with the closure of Carlow in advance of this exercise. Therefore, it ended up with one factory in Mallow producing all of the quota. By definition, if there were two plants on hand at the time there might have been more flexibility. That is a reasonable point.

The question of whether the special share applied or whether consent was given to decisions concerning Carlow and Mallow does not arise for the reasons I have stated. The Commission did not make a decision on vulnerability. The question of vulnerability was arrived at in the impact assessment done by it. The view the Commission services took at that time was that a country would be vulnerable if prices went to a certain level. It was not a question of our using out of date information. The out of date information which the court claimed the Commission used would not have been a significant factor in the company deciding to close production.

We have carefully noted all of the other points and will reflect on them. If we need to we will pick up on them later. They are valid.

On the feasibility study, it is essential to note that we referred to the production of sugar beet and not sugar. If a feasibility study would contribute to useful information on future ethanol production being available for all and sundry it is something we would be more than willing to become involved with, in terms of the various other departments and agencies which have been mentioned.

Mr. Moran mentioned that the problem regarding the WTO and the EU beet production concerned the C quota. We were being penalised as a result of the C quota, which is an injustice.

To return to the articles of association of Greencore, a delegate said it was the sole decision of Greencore to take the decision it took. It does not make sense to me that it was the sole body which made the decision when the State had a golden share in it and was part of the decision. I do not know if the State supported the decision. The delegation said it tried to string it out over several years in the hope of a soft landing. That is not the case; it happened in the space of 12 months. If the State supported that decision it is in violation of article 2 of the articles of association, whereby no sale or transfer could take place without the support of the special share.

If what the delegation told us is true, the State and Minister supported the ending of the sugar quota and the properties, land and everything associated with the plants being held by Greencore. The State cannot wash its hands of it and say it did not support it or was not part of it. It was part of the decision-making process. It is wrong to say Greencore alone could make the decision. The State share in Greencore was part of that decision and it cannot wash its hands of it.

I have several questions but time is pushing on. I want to comment on Mr. Moran's remarks. I thank him for being direct and giving us direct and honest answers. He referred to inaccurate comment. I have an issue with that because people, particularly producers, are entitled to make their comments. When I tabled a priority question to the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, his answer was that the Department was exploring all options. The reason for inaccurate comments may be because nobody, until today, has said or denied there is a possibility of re-opening the industry. The delegation said quite clearly there is no hope and that it cannot and will not happen. That is information we did not have until now.

I completely reject the idea that the Department and the Minister have no power in this issue. We have failed Irish farmers because a national interest was allowed to go down the Swanee. What is the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for? Is it to impose bureaucracy and fines, strangling farmers and driving them off the land? Mr. Moran is shirking his duty when he says he had no power to deal with this; he had power but he did not use it and allowed Greencore to do away with a national asset, sugar production.

How did countries like Finland manage to hold on to the industry when we did not? Were our negotiators weak or did the Minister not put up a fight? The other plant was closed before the real negotiations started so some people may have seen this coming and decided to close the plant in Carlow. Why were we left with nothing even though the Court of Auditors recognised the plant in Mallow was both modern and efficient? Was it the company's decision and the Minister and Department were powerless to act, wringing their hands like Pontius Pilate, saying the company had all the power?

Who owned the quota? Was it vested in the farmers, the company or the Government? Could we get a table of the yield of washed beet and the yield of sugar in the 27 European countries when the closure took place? We are hearing about Finland today but we were told at the time that we had the worst growing season of any country in Europe and that Nordic countries got a better growing season because more sunlight led to greater photosynthesis. Could we see the yields of those countries in a table? That must be possible. Where is the quota vested now or is it dead?

Mr. Moran has emphasised the fact that Greencore made the decision to close the factory and that it did not lobby to go down the compensation route. On page five, however, he states that a political decision was made at the final Council meeting where the blocking minority had dissipated and the Government decided to seek the best compensation for stakeholders. Those two statements cannot both be right. Either the Government made a political decision, with the Department as the implementing body, or there was consultation with Greencore.

Mr. Tom Moran

I would be delighted to supply Deputy O'Keeffe with a table comparing all the yields. The question of how we have no sugar industry while others do, even though they were in the area that might suffer, is valid. Portugal, Latvia, Slovenia and Bulgaria all lost their sugar industries. Our industry consisted of one company as quota user and when it closed, we had no industry. If there had been multiple processors, some could close and there would still be a sugar sector.

I must reiterate that the decision to close was made absolutely and totally by Greencore. The decision was made in March 2006 and the Council decision on the overall package was made in November 2005. At that stage it would not have been clear what decision would be taken by the company. The idea was that when the closure was going through in any event, it behoved the negotiators to ensure the best possible package would be available for Irish growers.

So the first decision to go down the route of closing down was a political decision and not the Greencore decision which subsequently came in March. That is what Mr. Moran has said.

Will the Senator please listen to Mr. Moran?

Mr. Tom Moran

I am obviously not making myself clear. The decision to propose that methodology was made by the Commission. That decision was put to the Council of Ministers over a number of meetings. That decision involved a whole series of adjustments to the regime - price reduction, a buy-out for sugar processing and quota within the EU. The negotiation of the overall package of sugar reform was done by the member states along with the Commission and the Council. That effectively put up a package of measures of different options. After that it was a matter for holders and users of the quota, in other words, companies throughout Europe, to look at their own situations and decide whether to avail of it. Some did, some did not. Some did it in totality in those other countries I have mentioned. In our case, our sole company chose to do that. That was the decision of the company. The decision negotiated in the Council was for a compensation package and a reform of the sugar regime. They are separate issues.

The second decision could not have happened without our consent.

Mr. Tom Moran

The first decision by the Council of Ministers would have been made anyway. That was going through.

I understand that.

Mr. Tom Moran

It might be suggested that because we wanted the sugar industry to stay, which we did, at that stage we might have said we did not want to enhance the compensation package so that in the event of the sugar company deciding to go there would have been less, as there would have been, because we managed to enhance the compensation for growers in the final stages. Had we chosen not to go down the road of closure, which was the case, and therefore not pushed for the maximum amount of compensation, that would not have been the wisest thing to do. When one sees where the company is going one gets the best possible package. If the sugar company opted for that, which we did not want, at least we were sure the growers would have a reasonable package. A point was made during the debate in regard to the amount of compensation we gave to the growers. Initially, we gave the growers, if I recall correctly, in the region of 32% of the fund. That was challenged in court and the amount was wound back to a particular figure. A further enhancement of the package by the Commission was brought in at a later date which brought the amount close to 32% of the overall package.

I thank the Secretary General and his officials for the presentation and discussing the matter today. It was a worthwhile exercise.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.40 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 19 January 2011.
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