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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018

Engagement with Chairman of Teagasc

We are meeting a delegation from Teagasc which includes the new chairman, Mr. Liam Herlihy. The purpose of the meeting is to hear from him about the approach he will take in undertaking his role as chairman and his vision for Teagasc in the next few years.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Herlihy to make his opening statement.

Mr. Liam Herlihy

I welcome the opportunity to present this opening statement to the joint committee. Being the newly elected chairman of the authority, I welcome the opportunity to meet members on that basis, even though I have met many of them on a personal basis.

In the last 12 months we have witnessed some of the most severe weather events in living memory for the farming industry. Teagasc has been centrally involved in supporting farmers through its lead role in the inter-agency fodder group that was established by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Creed. Even though we may hate to admit it, there is a possibility that weather events like this will occur in the future. Teagasc is very conscious of the need to support the sector in the mitigation of greenhouse gases and its adaptation to climate change. Maintaining this focus will be a key priority for the organisation in the future to ensure the sustainability of farming.

Teagasc has been in existence for 30 years. Its remit is to conduct research into agricultural production and food processing and deliver advisory and education services to farmers. Its mission statement is: "To support science-based innovation in the agri-food sector and wider bioeconomy so as to underpin profitability, competitiveness and sustainability". As my children often say to me I am always talking about money, members will excuse me for embarking on that subject again.

Teagasc's current budget is €187 million. Teagasc is unique as a non-commercial body in having a relatively large proportion of non-grant-in-aid income, which amounted to €56 million last year. This non-grant-in-aid income is where Teagasc is successful in competing for a number of contracts for research and advisory funds at national and EU level. It also includes advisory and education fees, income from farm profits, industry and professional levies. Teagasc receives a further subvention of €125 million from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, of which €43 million is effectively a pension fund. The €43 million is money which comes in and goes out. Our income comprises upwards of €80 million by way of a direct subvention from the Department and a further €56 million in fee-earned income last year. It is there to fund our capital expenditure programme.

Teagasc has approximately 1,200 full-time staff, including contract staff. In addition it has approximately 280 Walsh fellows, 260 at doctoral level and a further 20 undertaking a masters programme. The people concerned are hugely important to fuel research and provide advice in the future.

Teagasc is probably best known for its advisory offices, of which it has 51. A number of years back it had a number in the high 80s. In addition, it has seven agricultural colleges, four of which are owned by it and three of which are privately owned and subvented by Teagasc. Teagasc has seven research centres which cover diverse agricultural and food-related issues.

Teagasc has six operational programmes which are hugely important from a research, advisory and training perspective. They cover animal grassland research and innovation; food research; crops, environment and land use - a smaller category; the rural economy and development; advisory work and associated work; and, importantly for young farmers, education and training. Teagasc's aim is to drive productivity in the areas of dairy, beef, sheep and pig production without compromising sustainability, a point I would like to underline. Despite the very difficult year we have had, the FoodHarvest target to increase milk production by 50% by 2020 will probably be met this year. That has to be seen as very positive. There are two central pillars to Teagasc's ruminant livestock programme - genetics and grassland improvement. In the last two weeks Teagasc embraced the potential of digital technologies to transform pasture based agriculture through the recent launch of a €40 million investment programme, VistaMilk.

That is hugely important because it was funded by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Science Foundation Ireland and the industry participants in the area of agriculture. That cohesive tripartite involvement is very important.

Food is at the hub of what we do. There is little point in just producing food. We need to process it, but it is important to add value also. In that area, it is vital that Teagasc, through its Moorepark technologies and innovation in which Teagasc is a 50% stakeholder, is investing €10 million in Moorepark Technology Limited. We have a further €10 million earmarked for the area of food technology hub, which also will be based at Moorepark in Fermoy. Within the past week, the Minister opened a prepared consumer food centre at Ashtown. The purpose of that is to get the industry up and running in the event of a Brexit issue but we should be doing it anyway regardless of Brexit because it is all about adding value to the food chain. In addition to that, we have received almost €3 million from Enterprise Ireland to establish BIA, an innovation facility, at the Athenry campus, which will support small and artisan food producers in that area.

Another area of activity is crops environment and land use. Members are well aware of the much publicised document, Food Wise 2025, to ensure that the delivery of that ambition can be achieved in terms of sustainability in both economic and environmental terms. Key to achieving these objectives will be the redoubling of our efforts in the development of better varieties in the crops area and crops that are resistant to pesticides as various agri-chemicals will be withdrawn.

The promotion, in collaboration with the Department, of sustainable forestry expansion is hugely important for the future as we deal with the area of climate change. It is particularly important that we include native woodlands on dairy farms in particular as we deal with the growth of dairy farms within the context of the climate change environment.

The rural economy is an important area. The economy programme is focused to make sure we have sustainable agriculture in the broader sense but also in terms of quantifying the costs of climate change mitigation, the modelling of the economic impact of Brexit scenarios, taking into account the viability of small farms, and devising and tracking indicators of sustainability. Agriculture and farming is a broad church, if members will excuse the term. We need to be very conscious of our small farmers also from the point of view of the sustainability of rural Ireland.

On the advisory area, Teagasc provides an advisory service to its 44,000 paying clients but also information to our 130,000 farmers throughout the length and breadth of Ireland. In terms of our staff who interlink with those on a daily or weekly basis as is required, we have 240 advisory personnel, 87 of whom are allocated to our 18,000 dairy farmers, 131 to dry stock and the environment, but they are primarily beef farmers, and 11 to tillage, primarily in the tillage growing area.

Teagasc has and must continue to work very closely with Bord Bia in implementing its Origin Green at farm level through its unique carbon navigator programme.

It is important to point out to the members that Teagasc has recently begun collaboration with local authorities and the co-operatives, primarily with dairy processors, on a major programme to provide a free water quality improvement advisory service for farmers. It is called the agricultural sustainability support and advisory programme, which is a bit of a tongue twister, or ASSAP. What is important, however, is that it is a free educational programme that works in collaboration with local authorities, but primarily with dairy processors, to ensure that water quality is as it ought to be.

Education is hugely important because unless farming can attract young, highly qualified people, farming is going nowhere. The education programme is at the hub of what Teagasc does and at the hub in terms of the future of agriculture. In 2017, more than 7,000 learners participated in Teagasc school leaver programmes whether it be through adult education or Teagasc linked higher education courses. We are now implementing three major initiatives stemming from the recent review of the programme, which is called the extension of education pathway. That includes apprenticeships, promotion of teaching and learning practices and the development of continuous professional development courses, aimed primarily at farmers.

The members will have to excuse me. I am chairman only a wet week, so to speak, but nevertheless there are areas I am concerned about from a Teagasc point of view. Excuse me for talking about money for a start but there are three areas I would like to bring to their attention. First, regarding capital requirements, in the absence of access to borrowing facilities, Teagasc faces significant challenges in funding its working capital requirements. I am not saying Teagasc should be given a cheque book and be allowed to write cheques willy-nilly, but I am conscious that it does not have access to overdraft facilities or any borrowing facility to fund its research and educational infrastructure. It would be fair to say that, in the past, much of the capital expenditure was funded either through the sale of assets, and we cannot continue to sell fields forever, or through once-off special capital grants from Government. I believe neither of those is satisfactory from the point of view of the delivery of our objectives in the longer term. I want to make it very clear that Teagasc should live within strict fiscal policies but not having the capacity to borrow money for even short-term purposes is an impediment in terms of the development of agriculture and the delivery of our objectives.

Regarding recruitment, which is another hobby horse of mine, Teagasc is an outstanding organisation, and I believe the members share my view. It is a brand, but a brand is only as good as the people who are available to lead it. We are known globally as an outstanding independent and recognised agricultural research entity which delivers research for farmers, food researchers, food processors and Government agencies as well. However, we are facing severe challenges in recruiting and retaining high calibre staff. We do not want an open cheque book to recruit anybody at any figure but a particular issue is the very low starting salaries we are obliged to offer young, highly qualified researchers in particular. A slight tweaking of that entry level through recognition of their qualifications and work experience would be of enormous advantage to us.

Another area, and I touched on it earlier, is our educational programme for which there is a waiting list.

We also face a difficulty in facilitating the large number of students who are on a waiting list for part-time and distance education courses unless we are enabled to continue to recruit contract teaching staff. I appreciate that we have had that facility in the past and we would certainly welcome if this facility was afforded to us in the future. Very clearly, education is something that is hugely important to us but we need the appropriate funding to do it. The reason I say this is twofold. Successive Governments have been hugely supportive to agriculture from the point of view of the transfer of farms from one generation to the next in respect of stamp duty and the very generous capital tax allowances that are available. In addition, we have a grant programme that offers a significant extra grant allocation to young qualified farmers where they make investments in respect of their farms such as a new milking parlour or making the farm more sustainable but we need young farmers who have the appropriate level of agricultural education to facilitate that. It is in that context that I think it is so important that we accelerate our educational programme for our own young farmers to avail of the important facilities and schemes that have been put in place for them.

Deputy Penrose was the first to indicate. I will take Senator Lombard after that.

I thank Mr. Herlihy and Professor Boyle for appearing before us today. I wish Mr. Herlihy well in his role as incoming chairman of Teagasc. It is an exciting but challenging time to come into the role. I note that he outlined the various programmes. In respect of the €56 million that is non-grant aid income, from where does it mostly derive? Is it from research projects undertaken by Teagasc or is it from collaboration with dairy co-operatives? I think Teagasc is also involved in the agricultural farm in Kilkenny. I raised a few issues about it, the new winter system and out-wintering dairy cows. I have a concern about that. I might as well be straight and honest. I have been contacted in recent years by people who have concerns about it, particularly in the context of what Mr. Herlihy rightly identified as climate change issues. Obviously, the objective is part of research. I think it is being done in collaboration with the co-operatives. It might be meritorious at the beginning but we differ somewhat from New Zealand and other places where this has been adopted. I was told about the number of cattle lost. I would like to see the number and the tags of all those lost animals made available because some of the information I got was worrying. Teagasc is the research body and an arm of the State that aims to make sure all that can be done is done, so I hope for reassurance in that regard. I accept that what occurred last February or March was unusual but now we are aware of it, we must be in anticipatory and precautionary mode to ensure that it does not happen again and that animals are not left in that position. This will not be new to Professor Boyle. I have raised this issue in this committee previously. It is about ensuring we do everything we can. I am not saying anyone does anything deliberately.

I come from this end of the spectrum. Some of my colleagues from Teagasc are coming to the end of the road and will be part of the 43 million rather than at the other end where Teagasc is now rightly focusing. The VistaMilk programme is excellent. I think we will see benefits from that in terms of how to gain from our pasture-based agriculture and grassland. I think that will be good even in terms of the infant formula market of which we have a disproportionate and positive share. Well done to everybody involved in that, including Teagasc. Moorepark is still in the vanguard of significant technological developments and long may that continue. I cannot but acknowledge Grange and its work in the beef and dry stock sector. I suppose it is nearer to Senator Paul Daly and to me. I am very glad to see that John Heslin, one of the top ten footballers in the country, is doing a doctorate there. I look forward to reading his output in due course.

My next question might be one for Professor Boyle. Could he give a broad outline of how he sees us fitting in following Brexit? I know it is not fair because nobody knows. We must assume a best case scenario but prepare for a worst case scenario. How would a worst case scenario hit the very ambitious targets outlined in Food Wise 2025?

I am delighted to see Teagasc liaise with local authorities. There was always a close relationship even at local level. It was always there in Westmeath in any event but we now have a formalised programme in terms of improving water quality. If we can work with Teagasc, local authorities and farming organisations in a collaborative and co-operative way, we can make a significant dent in that.

How many of those 7,000 learners are going back to the home farms? Thankfully, some people will be employed by Kerry Foods and we need them to be available in this regard. I am delighted to see CPD for farmers, which is a novel concept, because it is important that farmers who are middle aged get an opportunity to participate in ongoing professional development so I am pleased about that.

Regarding the capital requirements, how much land can Teagasc dispose of without impacting on its core key objects in terms of research and development and advisory services, which are key to the organisation? How much more land is available for that? In the absence of a sale of capital assets such as land or a direct capital subvention by way of a direct Vote from the Government - the Department's budget from the Government - how else will Teagasc raise money? That is the key question. Teagasc has a lot of objectives and there seem to be many innovations on its part.

Waiting lists for young people are a cause of concern. The situation is better than it was. Teagasc has done its best. I see it has identified the reasons for waiting lists so that is a good start. Normally, we would be querying Teagasc about the reasons. Teagasc is saying it does not have enough people and that the salary on offer to young qualified researchers in particular is inadequate. I would probably broadly agree with that. Has Teagasc brought the issue to the attention of Government? There is an incongruence between Government policy, which is to accelerate intergenerational transfers, and a situation where less than 1% of agricultural land is becoming available on the market every year to allow somebody new to enter the sector. The problem is that it is very difficult to enter the sector. A young person telephoned me this morning on my way here. This person was ready to take on 150 acres and wanted to know whether I would speak to somebody in connection with the possibility of leasing that land. As a committee, we make recommendations with regard to stamp duty, capital acquisitions tax and inheritance tax. These are all great policies but what happens if they cannot function because of the age limits and because Teagasc cannot get young people through and there is a logjam at its end?

Mr. Herlihy is saying we need additional resources to ensure that those online and distance education programmes, as well as direct courses, be made available in Mullingar, Ballyhaise, Athenry, Gurteen or wherever, because that is absolutely critical. I support Teagasc's efforts in that regard. We will have to tackle this head on, probably with the Minister, on Teagasc's behalf to ensure that additional resources are made available. I note that full-time people will be needed in those roles; part-time work would be a sticking plaster solution that would cure the problem now only for it to accumulate again. I support Mr. Herlihy and wish him well in his role as chairman with Professor Boyle, who has been there for a long time. Both of them will do a good job and their role is pivotal to ensuring that agriculture is in a position to meet the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead.

I welcome the new chairman and the director of Teagasc. It is very important that the committee can discuss with the leading organisations of the agricultural community their vision for that community in a very challenging time, whether it is in respect of weather issues or the age profile of the farming community, which is probably a bigger issue for us. They are issues that we really need to discuss.

On the age profile of Teagasc itself, how do Mr. Herlihy and Professor Boyle feel it is going to develop in the coming years? The opening address stated that there was an issue with funding, bringing in graduates and people at that level. My understanding of the organisation is that it has a very good, solid core of advisers but that they are of a certain demographic and age. Somewhat like the farming issue itself, is there a fear that there could be a situation in five or ten years' time whereby Teagasc will have a cohort of people going into retirement and insufficient numbers being brought in at the other end? Could that be an issue for the organisation? What is the age profile of the organisation and what are the plans going forward in this respect?

The age profile of farming is probably the biggest issue in so many ways. A study was produced a few years ago that said there were more farmers over 80 than under 35. The way to deal with that is through education. What are Teagasc's long-term plans to improve the education offering available to the agricultural community of whatever age or gender? Could the witnesses elaborate on the success or, as some might say, failure of the discussion groups? I was a member of one myself that was very successful but some would claim that under the new regime, discussion groups have not quite taken off, that in many ways the discussion groups are outside the Department led scheme and are being run by Teagasc still but in a kind of ad hoc way. For the training of farmers and knowledge transfer, discussion groups are probably the key tool that will be used going forward.

Could the witnesses elaborate on the apprenticeships and training at levels 5 and 6? An issue that has materialised in my part of the world - I suppose it could be any part of the world - is the level of training of the host farmers. What audit system are we providing for them? Do we have legacy host farmers who have been there for generations and have they moved with the system? Has Teagasc reviewed that? Will all host farmers in future have to measure grass or have the ability to do so? If they do not have those or other technologies, how can they be the mentors who are required for the young recruits who are going to be a major part of our agriculture industry? How are we going to ensure that host farmers have the ability to mentor their trainees in order that the entire agricultural community can gain?

I welcome the new chairman of Teagasc and his chief executive. The greatest challenge facing us at the moment is climate change, the targets and restrictions it will impose on us and how as an industry we are going to be able to adapt to them. I would like the chairman to give an outline of Teagasc's plans. The sustainability of food production is going to be the by-word for the next decade. We see already that some of our continental colleagues are having quota restrictions put on them as regards production of phosphorous. It is definitely a new quota being placed on them and it has implications for us on the pig industry side and particularly on the dairy side. On the staff side of things, is a recruitment embargo still in place within Teagasc?

Three to four years have passed since the abolition of quotas. As Mr. Herlihy showed in his slide, production has expanded rapidly. Unfortunately I do not think the profit has marched with it but that is an argument for another forum. Our green image is paramount to our sales in all our sectors. We have to be careful with expansion that we do not lose that green image.

Senator Lombard referred to discussion groups. I spoke to a discussion group a couple of weeks ago and by the time 10 p.m. came they were virtually all asleep in their chairs. Just three or four years after the abolition of quotas, burnout is becoming an issue with dairy farmers. There are labour shortages and pressures on the profitability of the sector and on cashflow. Even the availability of qualified labour is an issue. We were always told about New Zealand and the burnout that dairy farmers experienced there. I see in my own locality that young fellows are going to become old men very fast and it is going to be a huge issue. When I was wearing another hat, we talked about what was the most appropriate and economical herd size for a one-man unit, how many cows he could milk. In my view that figure has shot upwards. We are at the stage where he might have the number of cows he needs to make a viable income but whether it is the amount of work he can do is a different equation. What are Teagasc's views on the optimum number of cows a one-man unit could handle and that should deliver a reasonable income for him?

The bioeconomy links into climate change and the research that has been done there. What is Teagasc's input in that area? The committee visited Professor Kevin O'Connor and his colleagues in UCD last June. There is very valuable research going on there. There was an open day in Lisheen last Friday and great strides are being made in that area on making food more sustainable. Is Teagasc feeding into that research? Has it an input into it? I was often in the research centre in Moorepark and saw the great work that was done there in developing products for the market. I have not been there for a number of years but I presume that work is going on apace. Is Teagasc linked into the bioeconomy and that faculty in UCD?

Deputy Penrose asked how many of the young farmers Teagasc is training are going back to family farms. There are issues regarding the availability of land for younger farmers and their ability to get access to it.

We have many different schemes in place but larger units of land are being leased and that is making it untenable for younger farmers to take out land as they are unable to compete with larger commercial outfits. We can have the best educated young farmers but if we do not do something to give younger farmers access and availability to land, they will not achieve their potential. That is certainly an issue in my part of the country where land lease prices have shot up and land is being leased in increasingly larger blocks, which is making it more difficult and in some cases virtually impossible for young farmers to get started.

Another issue of concern is the attitude of the banks and the availability of credit. Those who do not need it are able to get access to low-cost credit while the man who is starting off and needs a helping hand might get credit but he gets it at a very high cost, which puts a significant burden on his investment. Do the witnesses from Teagasc have a view on what we should do in terms of access to land and access to credit for younger farmers?

If it is okay, we will take the rest of the questions first. Deputy McConalogue is next.

I welcome Mr. Herlihy and wish him well in his term as chairman. I also welcome the chief executive officer, Professor Gerry Boyle. I have a few questions for Mr. Herlihy.

Following on what Deputy Cahill said about the climate change challenge and targets and the Food Wise 2025 targets, I am interested to hear about the juxtaposition of both of those targets and how Mr. Herlihy envisages the situation evolving.

In his presentation, Mr. Herlihy mentioned the difficulty in recruiting staff and the need to have additional flexibility and capacity to employ teaching staff as well. He also referred to the waiting lists within Teagasc for part-time students. That has been a particular issue for students in Donegal. There is an exceptional college in Ballyhaise and there are also part-time courses available in Donegal. Waiting lists are an issue in particular in the west and the north west. Teagasc must be empowered to recruit additional staff. Could Mr. Herlihy elaborate further on that? The committee should support the recruitment objective and should try to ensure that the waiting lists can be addressed in order that there would not be significant waiting times for young people who want to do a course and to get into farming.

Teagasc has had a role in monitoring the fodder crisis. The last month has been positive in that regard in terms of trying to address the gap. I am interested in hearing Mr. Herlihy's perspective on the winter ahead and Teagasc's position in terms of that particular challenge in the months ahead.

My final question relates to Teagasc's capacity in terms of advisory staff. A common theme coming from advisers is that in recent years they have been bogged down with the burden of assisting farmers with applications for various programmes, including the basic payment scheme, BPS, applications, returns and administration to the extent that many of them are under pressure in terms of being on the ground and offering advice to farmers. I am interested in hearing Mr. Herlihy's perspective in that regard because ultimately a lot of the engagement farmers have is with the advisers. Recently, there has been an increase in the number of private advisers.

I take this opportunity to wish Mr. Herlihy well as chairman of Teagasc and in its ongoing work. I apologise if some of my questions repeat what others have asked.

I wish to ask specifically about climate change and Teagasc's role in that regard. Much of the research on Teagasc's website appears to be at a very early stage in terms of establishing the extent of the problems. What research does Teagasc intend to carry out on climate change mitigation measures? We all know it is vitally important that the agriculture sector participates in whatever mitigation we can put in place, and that will be even more important in the years to come. I would like to hear Mr. Herlihy's views in that regard and what he expects to happen. Perhaps I am incorrect in my view of the extent of the current research being carried out by Teagasc. I invite Mr. Herlihy to expand on that for me because it is very important.

I am interested in what Mr. Herlihy said about the capital requirements of Teagasc and how he expects them to be met. I could be wrong, but from reading between the lines he is talking about private sector involvement, which would worry me because Teagasc should have an independent role. How does he expect the issue to be addressed and does he envisage that it will be solely addressed by means of the public sector?

I wish Mr. Herlihy well in his new position. I have a couple of questions. Reference has been made to climate change. When the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, was established some decades ago it was about quality, affordable, traceable food and now farmers and the agriculture sector must take on board environmental obligations as we learn more about science and the interaction of human beings with the environment. There has been much talk about culling the national herd and extreme suggestions such as veganism, for example. I wish to ground the debate a little. Professor Boyle has been pretty upfront about the situation and our climate change targets in the context of agriculture. Although great strides have been made since the early 1990s in reducing carbon emissions, and we are leaders in many respects, the national herd has increased with consequential difficulties. People have spoken about reducing the national herd and planting land but at the end of the day we are talking about food. I do not hear too much about where we are going to get protein or the suitability of crops. I have not heard it said that we should plant edible beans. My understanding is that it is a precarious endeavour, especially for food production in this country. I do not think we have been given the full picture in the sense that the message has not gone out that we produce food in a carbon-efficient manner and for the alternatives to be outlined. Taking food from some country in the tropics that happens to efficiently grow beans or other protein food crops also creates a significant carbon footprint. If, for some reason, we got out of beef, some other country would move to fill the gap. I would welcome some comments in that regard from Professor Boyle. In some ways there is a lot of hysteria around climate change and we must deal with it, but we cannot crush people in the process.

Teagasc has been very proactive in the area of soil management and training farmers in how to get the most out of soil, and in particular maximising grassland production. We have had what one could call extreme weather events in recent years and in general the weather seems to be a lot more precarious. Does Teagasc chart a maximum stocking level for the fodder and grass we can produce and whether we have stocking levels in excess of that? My point is not related to reducing carbon emissions but relates to the point at which we could not feed our own animals. Has that point been established? What studies have been undertaken in that regard?

I had the pleasure of attending a presentation ceremony in Mayo last Friday night for green certificates.

It was great to see there all the participants and their families and to learn of all the work done. The participants were rightly very proud to receive their green certificates.

With regard to land mobility, how many students undertake farming courses with Teagasc but do not have land or are hoping to get land? I am not talking about cases where a parent is going to leave one land but about people who are a step removed and just hoping to get land. How many are doing the course and hoping to enter the food industry in some area as opposed to farming? Could I have a breakdown of the figures? How many people are actually waiting for land? How many people with no farming background do the green certificate course? It is mainly people from a farming tradition who go into agriculture.

I remind members that we are dealing today with the chairman designate of Teagasc, not general Teagasc matters, as such. We can have the representatives back in at a later stage, perhaps to discuss Teagasc's annual report, which will generate considerable discussion. We are just dealing with one particular matter today.

I am thankful for the opportunity to speak. I wish the best of luck to the chairman designate. I would like to know his thoughts on the beef genomics scheme and on the stocking rate given the current position on beef. What are his thoughts on the factory feed lots? Is the market being distorted? Teagasc does a lot of research and, in fairness to it, it is very good at it. I have spoken to Professor Boyle numerous times. The likes of FRS has been contracted by Teagasc to do GLAS plans and so on. Teagasc had not the manpower itself because it lost staff. Should the ACA or private planners not come together and tender in this regard? Would there be an opportunity?

Teagasc is subsidised by the State. Professor Boyle will have argued over the years that it was not getting enough. The funding is for research and all the various programmes it puts together. A planner wishing to use the carbon navigator or that type of service in a private capacity must pay a fee. What are Teagasc’s thoughts on that?

What are the delegates’ thoughts on willow and forestry? Figures are coming out about willow. We know of farmers in County Meath who have dug it up and said it is not effective. What are the witnesses' thoughts on that? What are their views on young farmers? A new scheme is being created for them at the moment. What are their thoughts on the CAP? What are their thoughts on factory feed lots and the distortion of the markets, especially in the beef sector? What are their thoughts on the suckler herd and on how to make sure it is saved?

Consider what happens when we are selling ourselves abroad. We rear a lot of our stock on grass but, to put it bluntly, questions are currently being asked in Europe about how we are rearing some of our beef stock. Bearing in mind the CAP and nitrates requirements, do the delegates agree that, for every unit, we need an acre of green land?

There were some very general questions that we might leave for another day when we are discussing the Teagasc annual report. Perhaps Mr. Herlihy will address some of the points addressed to him directly.

Mr. Liam Herlihy

I thank members for the questions. They all mentioned climate change. From my point of view and that of Teagasc, the train has left the station. With regard to farming in the future, from both image and sustainability perspectives, we must realise climate change is here. We also have Brexit to address. Instead of cursing in the dark, it is important to embrace it from a positive perspective.

It was queried whether we have to decrease stocking figures to stay within the limits. Agriculture has to be sustainable under three pillars: staying within the ambit of climate change requirements; staying within the ambit of sustainability, which covers water quality and the environment; and remaining profitable to ensure we have viable farm entities. In ensuring all of these, what is the role of Teagasc? It is very much in the area of mitigation and determining what to put in place to mitigate carbon emissions to ensure we have a vibrant agriculture sector for the future.

The major issue at the moment is the dairy sector. I am from a dairy background. It is important to recognise that the dairy sector is the sector that will be most challenged by virtue of the high stocking densities. What are we doing in this regard? The first options are the soft options. One is milk recording. Allied to that is the economic breeding index to ensure we have profitable and high-performing animals in the herd. Equally, it is important that we encourage more forestry on farms, particularly in the dairying area. We should also examine the replacement of fossil fuels from an energy-credit perspective.

I am conscious that our carbon emissions are lumped in with residential and transport emissions. From an agriculture perspective, we have to be responsible for areas within our ambit. A game-changer, if we are to make a very significant reduction is changing from the area of calcium ammonium nitrate, CAN, to stabilised urea. There is much scientific work being done on this. We all grew up with the spreading of slurry using a slash-plate system. We are now moving to the injector system or, more recently, the dribble bar. This is a huge area. We have got to be positive and proactive. We must ensure we have vibrant agriculture and a vibrant sector that will feed off agriculture. It is important that we achieve the growth targets set in Food Wise 2025. The role of Teagasc, as a scientific, independent researcher, is to examine the mitigating effects. We can have a two-pronged approach, involving our having vibrant agriculture while at the same time tackle carbon emissions from a positive perspective. Climate change is upon us and we owe it to ourselves and the next generation to deal with it.

I will deal with issues in the order in which they were raised. Deputy Penrose asked about the Kilkenny farm. It involves a programme I have been very passionate about, having being chairman of Glanbia group. I was its first chairman. The initiative has three stakeholders. It is important to remember Teagasc has done a splendid job there. It is a research entity. The lesson to be learned is that any mistakes made on the farm must not be replicated by the wider farming community. To date, it has explained everything that is happening in detail, including in regard to the turnout date, the number of kilogrammes fed, etc. I appreciate there was an air of concern in regard to the bad weather, the snowy period, in the early spring.

Teagasc communicated with the committee earlier in the year in that regard and explained, in a fair bit of detail, exactly what happens.

Mr. Liam Herlihy

A report is being prepared and will be issued in the very near future. I assure the committee that it is all under control.

Reference was made to the recently-launched milk centre. This is hugely important, particularly for young farmers. Given that we are in a digital age, we need to communicate appropriately with younger farmers.

Education was covered by a number of speakers. I must be upfront and note to Deputy McConalogue that we appreciate that the waiting list is higher in his area than in others. We are very conscious of and focused on addressing that matter. I note upfront that we recognise the longer waiting list. Many questions were asked about our €56 million income. I do not have all of that but we can get back to the committee and deal with it. It is made up of a whole combination of issues. The important thing is that it is there and, hopefully, growing. We will certainly come back to the committee on that.

We can deal with that issue when we deal with the annual report.

Mr. Liam Herlihy

That is definitely so.

Deputy Cahill and others referred to climate change. Glanbia is very involved in the very important bio-transformation project at Lisheen. Glanbia and Enterprise Ireland are involved in that and in the area of science and development.

Many members referred to the staff embargo and future staffing needs and Senator Lombard queried age profiles. That is the reason we need to be conscious of it. The age profile of farmers is something we have always considered. While that is something we cannot change, we can encourage young farmers and put a programme in place to educate them and ensure that they have the appropriate training to avail of the important stamp duty mitigation which is available, as well as the vital capital allowances relating to land transfers. That is hugely important and has been made available and promoted by successive Governments. From a Teagasc point of view, we must ensure that we have the appropriate staffing in order to make sure farmers have the necessary green certification to avail of those benefits.

A query was raised in respect of the number of people who go back to full-time farming. I do not have the figure but it is something to which we can return. Not everybody must or should want to be a full-time farmer. It will depend on location and farm size. Whether they are full-time or part-time, what is hugely important is that farmers live in rural Ireland. By having people living in rural Ireland, we will ensure we have a sustainable and vibrant rural community. As chairman of Teagasc, I note that this is something of which we are hugely conscious. Wearing a different hat, I note that in Glanbia, it was always said that every €1 invested in a farm generated €4 in the wider economy. Agriculture is hugely important within the farm and outside the farm gate.

Deputy Fitzmaurice mentioned factory feedlots. Whether I like it or not, I am wearing a Teagasc hat today and Teagasc does not get involved in policy issues of that nature. The Deputy made the point about my personal view on CAP. CAP is hugely important to us. I was aware personally in that I got a text on my mobile phone on 16 October to say the CAP payment was available in my bank account. The committee can rest assured that I immediately checked my bank account and it was not there. I checked again at midnight and it was still not there. The important thing is that it arrived, safe and sound, at 9 a.m. the following day. Irrespective of size or scale, CAP is hugely important, including from the perspective of the environmental behaviour of farmers. It is important to ensure that all farmers farm within the code of practice as we ought to do.

On the suckler scheme and whether we should have 1 acre per livestock unit-----

Mr. Liam Herlihy

It depends on the county in which one lives. We have a nitrates derogation currently, which is hugely important for the future of dairying in particular. Other farmers do not have to avail of that level of derogation due to lower stocking intensities. I am conscious of that.

There were many other questions. There are two areas which are extremely important for me, as chairman of Teagasc. I am very conscious of the fact that dairy farming is the engine of sustainable and profitable agriculture. That can spread to other areas, whether it is tillage farmers assisting dairy farmers by growing animal feed crops or some of our existing beef farmers supporting dairy farmers by rearing heifers. The focus of Teagasc must be on sustainable farming systems. Not everyone will want to get up in the morning to milk cows, nor should that be the case. Equally, however, farmers can tap into the dairying sector by helping to provide for its sustainable future. That is what is important.

I am not exactly sure about willow farming. However, I am aware that many schemes are driven by grants from Brussels. I will have to kick to touch on that one because I do not want to speak about something I do not know about. In any event, dairying is very important but Teagasc must be concerned about certain considerations. If we speak about the sustainability of the maximum number of farmers, the low-level of profitability of beef farming is an issue of concern. We need to be very conscious of this. As the father of five children, one of whom is at home farming, I note that we must be conscious of the fact that a farmer who stays at home to farm on a full-time basis must have the very same opportunity to earn a viable livelihood as his or her siblings who have gone onto professional careers in other sectors. That is something of which I am very conscious.

Education in farming is of major importance. Teagasc must keep abreast of that. This is why I am so conscious of the need to recruit the brightest and best and to endeavour to retain them. While we cannot retain all of them, we live in a digital era and need young people who are capable of communicating with our younger farmers in particular. Whereas the young adviser is the future of Teagasc, the young farmer is the future of agriculture. Things are changing, including farming practices.

One of the members asked about the type of farmers who will emerge from the apprenticeship schemes we are about to embrace. We need farmers who are high-spec and who embrace technology, whether it be in respect of grass measurement or whatever. Interchanging, in a very important way, with the researchers at Moorepark, County Cork, has fed into the apprenticeship scheme.

Labour is extremely important on farms. I think it was Deputy Cahill who made that point. In terms of one-man units, it is not for me to say what the appropriate number of animals or cows is for a one person. Often, the number is dictated by the level of borrowing relating to the farm or the level of off-farm income and whether a spouse works elsewhere. No two farms are the same. Labour and its availability is hugely important, particularly in an Irish context. I have spent many years as chairman of Glanbia. My wife and I did not have one of our children available to work our farm during that particular time but we were very fortunate to have good staff from Poland. They are non-Irish people and they are still with us today. In the context of non-nationals coming here to work, they are very important. As we are all aware, and this is something that was mentioned to me quite recently, construction is about to take off again, which - as happened in the past - will take people out of agriculture. Equally, it is important that labourers are well paid, well accommodated and well treated within the agriculture sector in order to ensure that we have a continuous supply of workers.

On the capital requirement and the fodder crisis that occurred this summer, what is the current position? Is there data available on the amount and type of fodder available now compared with July? The weather has improved considerably in the past number of months and perhaps some fodder was saved last week.

Is the Chairman referring to his own fodder?

No, mine was done earlier in the year.

Mr. Liam Herlihy

It is amazing what a fine spell of weather will do. Very seriously, the amount of fodder depends on the area. Let us not forget that no two farms are the same. I live in one of the drier areas in the south. In my area, what has happened with third-cut silage has been enormously important. I have no doubt that there is still a fodder deficit in some areas. During the key period of the good weather, Teagasc played a hugely important role. Teagasc officials met farmers' groups, assisted with budgeting and dealt with the issue. Teagasc has been exceptionally proactive and encouraged farmers to do their appropriate measurements and deal with the deficit. There is still a fodder shortfall in some areas. In many areas, however, an acceptable back-end has filled that gap enormously.

I come from the private sector so I am concerned with the capital budget. Teagasc is unusual in not having access to additional funds. I do not for a moment suggest that Teagasc should skip away from the ambit of strict and careful fiscal policy. It should not. Having said that, in the past we have sold sites or farms that were no longer needed, which were used to fund some of our very important capital projects. Let me give an example. We have spoken about education, as have all of the members. Education and dealing with the green certificate issue is extremely important. I am glad to say that in the past the Government gave us the green light to recruit in excess of 40 staff members to deal with that very pressing issue. We will consider the continuation of that. It is vital to ensure that we can fulfil our educational needs and deal with the green certificate movement for a variety of reasons.

Not having access to an overdraft facility within the framework of strict fiscal governance is an impediment from the point of view of dealing with our objectives. One of the very important objectives is climate change. I refer to the latter as the new kid on the block. We have got to operate within the sphere of climate change. Rather than cursing the dark, we must deal with climate change mitigation from a positive and progressive perspective. In order to do so, we need appropriately qualified scientists.

How will the capital requirement be resolved? Will it be resolved solely through the public realm?

Mr. Liam Herlihy

I came here to raise this important issue with the committee. I am chairman of the authority but it is not for me to say that the issue can be resolved by doing A, B or C. That is a matter for the director and his team. Once I joined the board and sat down with the key people, namely, Professor Boyle and his team, I became aware that a blind person could have identified the capital requirement as an issue. Teagasc must be a progressive entity. It is no different from other commercial entities and must grow and be fit for purpose. As I see it, the capital requirement is a very clear impediment for the future. Coupled with that is the issue of retaining and recruiting key people. Teagasc is an outstanding organisation but it is no different from any other entity in that it is only as good as the people who lead it at a particular time. Teagasc must recruit really good people because they are the leaders of tomorrow. The pay cap is an impediment. However, it can be tweaked without creating an issue. Often, one recruits a person for a key position who may be a future leader. He or she may have completed his or her PhD or worked in the private sector so the pay cap makes no sense. We simply cannot recruit talented young people at very low pay. A degree of tweaking can be done without involving unions or overstepping the powers of area management. If we are to attract key people for the future then the low entry level of pay is unsustainable and inappropriate for the future.

That all comes down to money. From where does Mr. Herlihy believe the money should come? Does he view it as public or private money?

Mr. Liam Herlihy

I shall ask Professor Boyle and his team to answer the Deputy.

I can clearly see that Professor Boyle wishes to comment but we are only dealing with the chairman designate today. We will have Teagasc back in here to discuss its annual report and I hope that the meeting will take place before Christmas.

Mr. Liam Herlihy

Yes.

On that occasion, we will have more opportunity to discuss all of the issues. Professor Boyle will have his team with him so we can discuss the various matters that have been highlighted today in more detail. I refer, in particular, to the capital requirement and staffing levels, which are huge issues for the future. We need another meeting to deal with both issues in more detail. I look forward to having the meeting before Christmas and I am not trying to get away from the points that were made.

Mr. Herlihy raised the issues and that is why I asked him questions. What is his view on the matter?

Mr. Liam Herlihy

I would very much see the money as coming from public funds. We can only get so much revenue from contracts that we win so they must be funded as well.

As chairman - and I am almost apologetic given that I am in place only a wet week - I would not be doing the role justice if I was not bold enough to identify the three key areas that I consider to be issues for the future. I ask the committee to take note of them and I have no doubt that we will be back to discuss them with members. The Deputies and Senators are the people on the ground in their areas and they want a progressive and dynamic agriculture and also an appropriate Teagasc to lead the latter in the future. I like to think we are all joined at the hip in that regard.

They are three areas we can identify when we discuss the annual report, along with the other issues in the report. We will highlight those three issues.

I thank Mr. Herlihy and Professor Boyle for attending. I wish Mr. Herlihy well in his new role. As he said, he has only been in the job a wet week. I am sure he will have many more wet days to come in it. We look forward to engaging with him regularly in the months and years ahead.

Sitting suspended at 5.20 p.m. and resumed at 5.24 p.m.
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