The purpose of the second session is to examine the development of the hemp sector. I welcome Mr. Michael Moloney and Mr. Cara Mac Aodháin, Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I also welcome Dr. Frank O'Mara, director, Mr. John Spink, head of programme, crop science department, and Mr. Barry Caslin, energy and rural development specialist, farm management and rural innovation, Teagasc. Both the Department and Teagasc have opening statements and I invite Mr. Moloney to make his opening statement.
Hemp Industry: Discussion
Mr. Michael Moloney
I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to discuss the development of the hemp sector in Ireland. At the outset it is important that I clearly set out the responsibilities concerning hemp.
Cannabis and industrial hemp both derive from the species cannabis sativa and contain the psychoactive component tetrahydrocannabinol or THC. Hemp has lower concentrations of THC which decreases or eliminates its psychoactive effects. Cannabis, which includes hemp, is listed in Schedule 1 of the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2017, as amended, which means it is subject to the strictest level of control. Legislation on cannabis, which includes hemp, is not a matter for this Department and it would not be appropriate for us to discuss any issues on the legal aspects that govern hemp. It should be noted that it is an offence to cultivate, import, export, produce, supply and possess cannabis, including hemp, except in accordance with a licence issued by the Minister for Health.
The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine regularly receives correspondence from interested parties on various aspects of the subject, including the legislative position and the potential commercial development of the industry. On foot of this interest, the current programme for Government includes a commitment to fully explore fibre crops such as hemp and consider whether these crops have a viable market. It is from that perspective that the Department is interested in examining the viability of growing hemp for fibre.
In August 2021, the Department wrote to several stakeholders inviting them to submit their considered views. In the letter of invitation the stakeholders were asked to include in their submission responses to the following questions: what markets exist for fibre from crops including hemp; the strengths and weaknesses of fibre crops so the classical strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats or SWOT analysis; and what is the scalability of the Irish fibre crop and hemp industry but taking into account market size and value, industry processing capacity and adequate economic returns for all along the supply chain.
The consultation process is ongoing and a report is near completion. When the report is finalised it will be presented to the Minister for his consideration. It would not be appropriate for me or my colleagues to discuss any aspect of the consultation process until such time he has considered the report and made a determination on the programme for Government commitment to fully explore the potential for growing fibre crops such as hemp and whether there is a viable market for these crops.
Hemp has a number of uses. Hemp can be used in construction, marine construction, car manufacturing, paper, food, animal bedding, clothing, drinks and in the health, pharmaceutical, biofuel and cosmetics industries. Hemp oil, which is derived from seeds, is used in health supplements, personal care, cooking and also in industrial usage such as linseed oil in paints.
In terms of the hemp industry in Ireland, while the area sown between 2016 and 2019 increased considerably, 2020 saw a more than 50% decrease in the area sown when compared with 2019. My Department's basic payment scheme data, from which we derive our information, indicates that there was a further slight decline in area in 2021.
Hemp is included as an eligible crop under the basic payment scheme. For comparative purposes, the areas sown to hemp and Ireland’s main crop, spring barley, are included in the table in the Department submission. From 2015 to 2019, the area grew from a very low 17 ha to 314 ha. It subsequently dropped to 164 ha in 2020 and last year decreased slightly to 153 ha. In that same period, if it is compared with spring barley, we had 132,000 ha in 2015. That decreased to 94,636 ha in 2019, predominantly due to a swing towards higher yielding winter crops. It increased significantly in 2020 to 140,000 ha and 116,000 ha last year. Apart from some interest at national level, there is also increasing interest at international level, with the European Commission recently hosting a public meeting on the production of hemp and market opportunities. While the meeting was to be focused on fibre crops, much of the discussion centred around food. While many positives were put forward on the future potential of the sector, many similar problems exist in other European countries as are present in Ireland, including, for instance, access to processing facilities. Currently, Ireland does not have fibre processing facilities. These are required to be in close proximity to hemp growers. Any development in relation to a processing facility must be industry led.
On the area sown internationally, in 2016 more than 100,000 ha was sown globally, with China, Canada, the USA and Europe being the top four. The global area sown in 2019 mirrored Ireland. It almost grew threefold to 275,000 ha, with China, Canada, the USA, Europe and Russia being the main growers. Of note is a drop in area sown in the USA from 2019, where it was almost 60,000 ha, to 2020, where it was 20,000 ha. These areas are also small in an international context and show hemp is currently very much a niche crop.
On the legislative position, I mentioned earlier hemp was governed under the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2017. Current legislation in Ireland does not allow for the growing of hemp unless a specific license has been granted by the Health Products Regulatory Authority, HPRA, which operates under the auspices of the Department of Health. That licence contains strict conditions, including, for example, the location where the hemp crop can be grown. It cannot be grown in a roadside field. It must be a number of fields in from the road. In addition, the cultivation of hemp is restricted to varieties having less than 0.2% content of THC. It should be noted this limit will be increased from 0.2% to 0.3% for eligible crops under the next Common Agricultural Policy, CAP. We have conveyed that information to the Department of Health.
By way of additional information, in 2018 this Department carried out a broad consultation with relevant stakeholders as part of an examination of growing hemp commercially in Ireland. This consultation was conducted following a request from the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Public Petitions. The consultation included the Departments of Health and Justice, the HPRA, Teagasc and the two representative bodies for hemp in existence at that time. A clear view arising from respondents involved in regulation during that consultation was that the domestic hemp industry should continue to be controlled and regulated by the Department of Health and that the stringent controls in place on growing hemp should continue. This strict regulation is in line with the situation in many other countries. Detailed analysis of the economics of hemp and its ability to provide a meaningful income all along the supply chain was lacking in that consultation. The detail on how scalable an Irish hemp industry would be was also lacking in the responses received at that time.
I again thank the committee for the opportunity to come before it to discuss the development of the hemp sector in Ireland, and I or my colleague will answer any questions members may have.
I thank Mr. Moloney. Dr. O'Mara is next.
Dr. Frank O'Mara
I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the opportunity to present today. Farm diversification is a key strategic direction within the Teagasc statement of strategy for 2021 to 2024. Our rural development department, which is part of our rural economy development programme, aims to support farmers with diversification opportunities through farm business options webinars and in-person courses held throughout the Teagasc regions. Teagasc has developed numerous fact sheets on farm diversification, including one on industrial hemp. We work with industry to develop these opportunities and have been part of the organisation of a national hemp conference in 2019 and have been again in association with Hemp Cooperative Ireland on 8 April.
Teagasc, and An Foras Talúntais before it, has a history of hemp fibre research in the crops programme dating back to 1960. Over that time there have been three different areas of research of hemp. The first was conducted by Michael Neenan, who was interested in using the hemp fibre for paper and textile production between 1960 and 1966. The second era of research was carried out by a researcher called Jim Crowley between 1997 and 1999. He was interested in hemp as medium density fibreboard, MDF, material. More recently, between 2008 and 2012, Dr. John Finnan was interested in research on hemp as an energy crop. All of this research was geared towards the agronomy of hemp, though there were different uses of hemp in mind. This work has shown that hemp can be grown well in Ireland and has established the basics of crop production in terms of sowing dates, seed rates, varieties, harvesting techniques etc. It has also shown that the crop can be grown with little or no requirement for plant protection products, although if grown more widely, pests and disease could become a problem. It has also established the crop nutrient input requirements that are now included in the Teagasc green book, entitled Major & Micro Nutrient Advice For Productive Agricultural Crops, with the relevant table shown in the appendix. It should be noted that in the three cases above, no significant cultivation of hemp resulted, due primarily to the lack of a local or domestic market for the fibre.
Hemp fibre is a low-density material and therefore not well suited to long-distance transport to processing facilities. To deliver a significant increase in hemp production for fibre markets will require investment in processing facilities to extract the fibre as well as the development of local markets to turn the fibre into products. In addition to fibre, hemp may offer opportunities to develop novel products, in particular from the flowers, leaves and seeds, which would not present such a transport challenge as the fibre. Cannabidiol, CBD, oil is extracted from the leaves and flowers of the crops, the harvesting of which is currently not allowed under hemp cultivation licences. Therefore the development of a significant CBD industry will require some legislative changes. These alternative markets are an area of ongoing research, and our food programme recently received funding from the Department to carry out a project called Innovative food friendly processes of hemp CBD extraction and evaluation of hemp as a source of functional food ingredients. The project is led by Teagasc and involves researchers from UCD. The total funding allocated is €591,000.
Additionally, we plan to investigate the functionality of hemp protein to identify if there are specific market niches to which it is suited. We plan to do this as part of the Department funded Unlocking Protein Resource Opportunities To Evolve Ireland’s Nutrition, U-Protein, project. It is a large programme we have going on around plants as sources of protein. As part of that project we will look at the functionality of hemp protein. That is a multidisciplinary collaboration between Teagasc, University College Cork, Maynooth University, NUI Galway, the University of Limerick and Queen's University Belfast, as well as ten industry partners, that commenced in November 2020 and received funding of almost €3 million. Obviously, that is not all for hemp-related work. There will be some additional work in an EU-funded project lead by Teagasc that is currently in contract negotiation. We will be actively disseminating the research findings from these projects when they are available.
As with any crop or product, markets, together with the necessary infrastructure, are critical to encourage farmers and give them the confidence to grow the crop. However, as outlined above, the crop grows well in Ireland, and given the right financial returns, growers would be interested in growing the crop. There are many claims made for the carbon sequestration potential of the crop. We have done some very limited work in this area which indicates it sequesters slightly less carbon than grassland, but these results require further validation.
The net carbon sequestration will also be dependent on the system in which the hemp is being grown, that is, grassland or tillage land, and the soil type on which it is being grown, namely, organic or mineral. It should also be noted that as far as the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, IPCC, methodologies on which our national greenhouse gas inventories are based are concerned, the carbon contained in most crop products is assumed to be released back to the atmosphere once harvested. That stands in contrast to harvested wood products, for example. If such products are used in construction, the carbon is assumed to be sequestered. That is a difference between hemp and forestry or harvested wood products.
I thank the committee for the opportunity to present evidence to it this evening. We welcome any questions members may have. My colleagues, Mr. Caslin and Mr. Spink, who are more knowledgeable on this topic than I am, will come into their own at that stage.
I thank the representatives from Teagasc and the Department for coming in. We have already had debate on this issue at the committee, particularly with hemp growers and advocates on its potential. I have grown hemp here and in Greece, so I know a little bit about the matter. It is very easy to grow. Once the seed makes contact with soil and it is firmed in, it grows. I do not particularly want to connect it with the word "weed", but that is what it is and it grows well. We have to be responsible about advocating for it and how it is grown and managed.
I will deal with my questions for the Department first. I got a sense from the Department that there was a certain reluctance in respect of this crop. I do not know why that is the case but it is the sense I got from reading departmental circulars and the opening statement provided by Mr. Moloney. He referred to the programme for Government, which states that this will be explored. Mr. Moloney did not say that, but I am familiar with the programme for Government and it does mention of this. Mr. Moloney stated that he is not in a position to share this and that with us. I respect and understand that, but we, as a committee, have to take an overall view based on the information available to us at this time. I am not sure whether people are convinced about hemp but there seem to be a lot of people who are excited about it. When one drills down into it, however, there are difficulties. We know it is easy to grow but there are issues in terms of processing it. Close proximity to a processing plant is a requirement. We know it has to be set in away from roads. Mr. Moloney outlined that in detail. He presented figures in respect of hemp and spring barley for the period from 2015 to 2021 and told us that it peaked in 2019 terms of hectares sown. I will ask a few questions and our guests might answer them all at the one time if that works for them. Is there any reason for the peak in 2019? Does the Department have qualitative research and information that tells us it peaked and then slowly went down?
There is great excitement in respect of hemp. It may be the case that there is not enough information but there is a view that it has potential in terms of fibre material, printing, horticultural and other matting, horticultural mulch and quality seed. What knowledge does the Department have in respect of security and quality of seed? There are many hemp seed variants. What is Mr. Moloney's knowledge of the current supplies of hemp? Where is hemp seed being sourced? Is hemp seed being harvested here? Where is it being harvested? I ask Mr. Moloney to share details in that regard.
I thank our guests from Teagasc for appearing. Teagasc prepares a number of fact sheets. It did a very extensive one in respect of hemp. I was very excited by it. I do not know if or when it will revise that factsheet but it gave great hope and excitement in this regard. In his opening remarks, Dr. O'Mara referred to diversification. Farmers are always looking to diversify and consider new crops but those crops have to be profitable and sustainable and have a future and, ultimately, a market. It is about getting that critical mass and buy-in. I do not know where that can happen and what the opportunities are in that regard. Ultimately, Teagasc is involved in research and development. That is one of its key roles. Dr. O'Mara referred to An Foras Talúntais and the earlier research that was done. I ask him to circulate to the committee Teagasc's most up-to-date factsheet on hemp because I think it covers a lot of the area we have been discussing.
The U-Protein research project being undertaken by Teagasc in conjunction with UCD and other places is exciting in terms of the funding being committed by Teagasc and the potential for synergy. There is significant growth in new protein in the sports sector. Even aside from human consumption, there are significant opportunities in the context of animal feeds. We know from the United States and Canada the opportunities that exist in that context. It is clear that Teagasc does not have to reinvent the wheel. A significant amount of research has already been done on this. Much of the industry is already getting into the area of sports nutrition, as well as human dietary and nutritional requirements. The most promising reports about which I have read relate to animal nutrition. I know that work is ongoing with universities in Cork, Galway, Limerick and Belfast. When will that information come? Where is Teagasc at in that regard? What is the timeline involved? More important, what is the financial commitment in terms of innovation, research and resources that Teagasc has invested in this market? How is that reflected in its ambition for the product? It would be very helpful if our guests from Teagasc were to share that information.
Mr. Michael Moloney
I thank the Senator. There was an extraordinary increase from 67 ha in 2018 to 314 ha in 2019. We do not normally see that margin of swing. We have no definitive answers on this, but our opinion is that, as the Senator stated, there was great interest in crop diversification. The level of beef prices may have been a factor. There was a 3% increase in tillage area last year and we think much of that came from mixed tillage and beef enterprise. Farmers were looking at margins and backing tillage as having a better margin than beef. Farmers were seeking to diversify. The level dropped off the following year, probably because of the returns. The market was not returning enough on investment. I have referred to spring barley because it is the staple main crop and any potential new crop has to be compared with it because it is the area that will probably be lost to gain hemp or any other crop. That is the basis for giving that comparison.
As regards seed, the seed can be harvested but, unlike in the case of cereals, it cannot be used for propagation - it has to be used for processing. I have responsibility for seed certification schemes. Farmers can use home-saved seed, whether it be potatoes, cereals or whatever, for the following year's crop. That is not possible in the case of hemp. We have had several engagements with the representative organisations and I know one aspect they would like changed relates to the THC content of the seed. That might allow them to use a greater range of varieties. That may happen next year with the change in the basic payment rules, going from 0.2 to 0.3 THC. All the seed is imported. We do not cultivate the seed here. The seed is imported to OECD standards. I have not had direct contact from the representative bodies in respect of the quality of the seed. They have not raised any issues with me in that regard.
Dr. Frank O'Mara
I thank the Senator. We will certainly make that fact sheet available to the committee tomorrow. As he probably saw in our written statement, most of our past research was in respect of hemp and its potential use as a fibre source for paper, energy or whatever. Our main interest related to how one would grow the crop and the parameters in that regard. The more recent relevant research we have relates to the food or feed characteristics of the crop. I ask Mr. Spink to expand on the details of that. Before he does so, I will point out what we are trying to do in this area.
We are trying to create facilities, the infrastructure and a support system for entrepreneurs and innovators who could use any food or crop. We have good facilities in our research centre in Ashtown, dealing with the extraction and processing of foods. We have invested approximately €10 million over the past three to four years in what we call prepared consumer foods facilities. We have good facilities that could be used by people at a testing or small manufacturing scale for processing grains, seeds or whatever it might be, purifying them or extracting components from them, and for packaging them. There has been very little work with hemp at the facility but the resource is available. We have good expertise relating to the characterisation of seeds, feed or whatever it might be, so that we can identify their properties. That expertise is being brought to bear on some projects. I mentioned U-Protein. Mr. Spink knows more about than me. He might outline investment in that research.
Mr. John Spink
U-Protein is a €3 million project. We have another large EU-funded project that will start soon. The development of plant proteins has been a significant focus for us for more than a year and is ramping up. We are interested in how we can effectively extract plant proteins. It also uses some of the facilities in Moorepark. The work on protein would have applied primarily to milk until now. We are trying to identify what we can grow in Ireland. Can we grow crops with particularly high-value proteins? How are they extracted? What are the markets? This looks at high-value products, including sports nutrition and whatever other markets there might be for proteins that we can effectively grow and extract.
We are also looking at agronomy, which is how the crop is grown, how that affects the amount and quality of the protein, how it is processed, and what it can be used for, so that we can effectively identify raw materials to be used by large food manufacturing companies. There has been a significant increase in plant-based foods, as I am sure the committee will be aware. Many of those are based on imported crops. We are focused on ensuring that the raw materials come from Ireland and the value goes back to the Irish growers rather than being imported.
I have not come equipped with information about the total value. I was not expecting the question.
I will wrap up. I am conscious of time and other members want to contribute. I think that is exciting. That is an enormous amount. Is the committee to take it that the witnesses are ambitious and believe there is potential? The hemp crop provides high-value protein. It is a new market and provides diversification. Are the witnesses reasonably confident that this is exciting, challenging and that there are real opportunities?
Mr. John Spink
Hemp is one of a range of crops that we are looking at. They could be forage crops-----
I want to focus on hemp.
Mr. John Spink
I could not yet tell the Senator, because we have not done the work to know what particular uses the protein might have, but it is one crop that we are looking at, and if we can identify high-value uses for the protein, that information will be made available to the industry. Hopefully, the industry can be exploit it. If we can develop good markets that pay the farmer, then it is all well and good.
That is great. I thank the witnesses.
We will have to suspend because there is a vote in the Dáil.
Sitting suspended at 7.14 p.m. and resumed at 7.28 p.m.
Deputy Jackie Cahill resumed the Chair.
Mr. Barry Caslin
Senator Boyhan is gone now, but he asked about the origins of the seed. Most hemp seed comes from France. Tall varieties are used for fibre. Dwarf varieties are used for seed production. Those dwarf varieties mainly come in from Finland.
The Chairman might be relieved to know that I have to run off to speak in the Chamber shortly.
I would never say that.
I am only saying what the Chair is thinking. I will try to be as brief as possible. The overwhelming sense I get when dealing with this issue is that there is a lack of enthusiasm and certainly a lack of drive, which is bewildering, considering many commentators suggest that this could be an important crop for diversification, farm incomes and climate action. Everything that has been done seems minimal. This is not directed at just the Department or agencies, but applies across the board.
Mr. Moloney mentioned some very low numbers earlier, with 300 ha in 2019.
He gave a rationale that perhaps this was due to the low price of beef that year, and the fact that there was not a market and that people moved out from it. He further said that the assumption is based on any future growing of the crop replacing spring barley production. Which is it? Who diversifies and where does Mr. Moloney see the potential for hemp growth? Is it in areas where spring barley is not being grown? It was my understanding that the type of area that would be most suitable might be the likes of the Border region, the midlands, even into the west, which would not have a high prevalence of tillage farming at the moment, and that it would actually be a diversification from meat or even dairy.
Mr. Michael Moloney
I am over the crop policy area. From a tillage perspective, tillage farmers are always looking for diversification. They look at what can improve their farm incomes and they are keen to look at alternatives. On that basis, they would look at the crop to see if it is feasible for tillage farmers to grow it. They have the techniques of growing crops, they have the equipment, and they are ready made to engage. They will, however, compare the returns from hemp with spring barley, which is the crop they would most replace.
With regard to livestock farmers, it is not for any one sector as it can be grown by beef farmers and, as we heard Senator Boyhan say, it is a relatively easy crop to grow. There is a low level of inputs. Mr. Caslin might have more detail on that but it is a relatively easy crop to grow. It does not take the expertise that would be needed if, for example, somebody who was a beef farmer wanted to grow malting barley in the morning. It can be grown in marginal areas and I am aware that is grown in places in County Kerry and the west of Ireland. There is tillage in Kerry as well, however, around the Listowel area. We have not said that any one particular sector is more suited and my comparison with spring barley was predominantly just to show that if it is a tillage farmer, this is what he or she will be comparing it to. At the end of the day, they are going to look at the margin of this crop versus what they are currently doing, be it finishing cattle or raising store cattle or whether they are growing barley or any other crop.
Would the Department consider a move to hemp to be environmentally positive for the different sectors of livestock, dairy and tillage? Is such a move environmentally positive in each instance?
Mr. Michael Moloney
Certainly it is. There have been claims made by the representative organisations with regard to carbon sequestration. It is the buzz thing in relation to the climate debate but we have not seen hard facts or evidence to show that. Dr. O'Mara showed the limited research and how it is comparable to grassland. It is a low input crop as well, with low levels of pesticides and little or no fertiliser as such. It is environmentally friendly in that regard. Yes, it does tick that environmental box but by how much? Is it comparable to grassland or will it sequester more carbon? We have not seen the evidence to back up that claim in relation to carbon sequestration.
Where does the Department consider that evidence coming from? Is it Teagasc, or does Mr. Moloney see a role for the Department to explore these matters at all?
Mr. Michael Moloney
I will leave that to Teagasc to answer. They might have a bit more information on it.
From the Department's perspective, does it consider-----
Mr. Michael Moloney
We do not carry out research on carbon sequestration ourselves. In relation to interventions, we are very much looking at the marginal abatement cost curve, MACC, which was researched by Teagasc.
I will come to Teagasc in a minute. In respect of farm incomes, there are two parts to the hemp crop. The Government has committed to an exploration of the fibre element of it. We heard very strong evidence with the representative organisations that this is a fundamental mistake because asking anybody to grow a crop and to discard, potentially, half or more of the value of the crop would not be entertained. Dr. O'Mara spoke about looking at the by-products. Does the Department see scope to examine the entire crop in the context of looking at this from a farm income perspective?
Mr. Michael Moloney
As the Deputy has correctly said, the programme for Government stuck strictly with the fibre element, which is the area in which the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is interested. There are regulatory issues around the other elements that are income streams, which are not in the remit of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. They are the responsibility of the Department of Health. Again, it would be for the Department of Health to consider issues in relation to the other income streams. Some of those are constrained by way of regulatory issues. At the moment, there is fibre and seed. That is the licence provided for by the HPRA. In this programme for Government, we are strictly limited to looking at the fibre element.
Is Mr. Moloney saying that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine does not have an opinion on the regulatory issues? The issue has gone as far as the European Court of Justice, which made a ruling that suggests we are wrong in this regard. The Department of Health may be appealing that. Does the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine not have an opinion on that? Does it simply let the Department of Health deal with this and say that whatever happens happens, even though there is an acknowledgement that this could be an important income stream for farmers and could play a positive role in agricultural emissions?
Mr. Michael Moloney
Certainly we are in consultation with the Department of Health and it has consulted us on a number of occasions over the past years. We have given our opinion and categorically. In my meetings with the representative bodies we are there to help them in any way we can, within the rules and regulations that are there and that we can address. We cannot say, and it is not our place to do so, what should and should not be the rules but we have given-----
But the Department can give an opinion.
Mr. Michael Moloney
We have given an opinion.
What is that opinion?
Mr. Michael Moloney
In one particular case there was an issue around THC content. We gave our view on whether products should be allowed at a certain THC content, which at the time I believe was 0.3%. We gave our opinion at that stage. Where we are consulted we certainly will give an opinion and we will work with our Government colleagues on the development of the sector. The regulation around issuing licences is not under our remit.
Mr. Moloney mentioned that essentially, for any processing activity it is up to the sector and the market to develop that. If we took the same view on wind energy, for example, we would not have any in the State. Going back to the premise that this could potentially be very beneficial to the environment and could be very beneficial to farmers and to local economies, does the Department not see any role at all for the State to intervene in order to kick-start and assist the development of a processing element of the industry?
Mr. Michael Moloney
There are constraints within state aid rules about what level of funding the State can provide to any industry in establishing it. If a proposal is put forward, the Department would certainly consider that.
Would the Department bring forward a proposal as the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine?
Mr. Michael Moloney
It would be up to industry to come forward with a proposal and to spell out what they need and what would be needed for the industry. Given the level of the area we are currently at, we are certainly not at that stage, at this stage.
I have just a couple of quick points to put to Dr. O'Mara. It has been mentioned, and I believe he has accepted, that the research done by Teagasc in this area has been limited. The obvious question is whether Teagasc plans to expand that level of research, and what will that look like?
Dr. Frank O'Mara
I thank the Deputy for the question. While the research has been limited, in the area of growing the crop I believe it is reasonably comprehensive. We know how to grow the crop. Of course one can always keep looking at new varieties or new plant protection products but I do not believe there is a huge gap in knowledge there around growing the crop
On the uses of the crop, the area we have not researched in the past was the use of the crop in the food industry.
The research we have under way at the moment is in that space. Perhaps Mr. Spink will wish to comment further on that. I will go back to the environmental question the Deputy asked. There is a bit of uncertainty around the level of carbon sequestration. Some research we have done suggests that is about the same as for grassland but that is really only half the answer to the question the Deputy asked. If we are to compare it with a livestock enterprise such as a beef or dairy farm, it must be remembered there is a lot of emissions from ruminant animals. A hectare of a beef enterprise's land will result in about 4 tonnes in emissions while a hectare of a dairy enterprise's land will result in 8 tonnes. A hectare of a tillage enterprise land will be responsible for very little emissions in comparison with animal enterprises.
That is regardless of the crop.
Dr. Frank O'Mara
It is, although it depends on the amount of nitrogen fertiliser used. That is probably the main thing but it would be much lower, perhaps 1 tonne or so. There are far fewer emissions. The sequestration side of the balance sheet is probably about the same as it would be for grassland but there is a bit of uncertainty around that.
Is there a tonnage equivalent for sequestration that Dr. O'Mara could cite?
Dr. Frank O'Mara
The sequestration on grassland is somewhere around half a tonne to 1 tonne of carbon per hectare per year. It is probably similar for hemp but there are high levels of uncertainty around that.
Dr. O'Mara is saying that, in terms of the calculations used internationally, it does not count as ongoing sequestration if the product is used in, for example, building materials.
Dr. Frank O'Mara
Exactly. That is a third factor to take into account. If it goes into building material, it is probably going to be there for 20, 30 or maybe 40 years. If it was a wood product being used for construction timber, it would then be counted as being sequestered or locked up for up to 100 years. The same does not happen with hemp or many other such crops, even if they are to be locked up. They are not treated like for like. It is not getting the same advantage when the fibre is used for long-term construction uses like that. In some ways, it is an anomaly but production of the crop is very small so the impact it would have on our national inventory is very small in the short term.
That is true in the short term but if we expand production of this product and if we create a processing sector for it, thereby providing opportunities for many farmers who may be operating at a loss if they move into it, does Dr. O'Mara accept that this could potentially be a very important product for our country?
Dr. Frank O'Mara
If that happened and if it was being grown over a large area, Ireland would be putting a case to the IPCC to treat this-----
That is the point I was making. Should we be making that case and starting the groundwork in that regard now?
Dr. Frank O'Mara
To be honest, I do not believe it is the make-or-break issue in respect of hemp. It is really about finding the use for it first. The carbon sequestration benefit of using it for construction material is very much a spin-off or co-benefit. The big challenge is getting it used in construction. That is the thing. We need to get the horse first. The cart will follow. Do Mr. Spink or Mr. Caslin want to add anything to what I have been saying?
Mr. John Spink
No, thank you.
I just want clarification. I do not even know what a hemp plant looks like. We had the representative bodies in and it seems to me that the kernel of the debate and the issues we will have if this is to have any kind of feasible future is the fact that the plant is covered by the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2017. I hope the witnesses will correct me if I am wrong because, as I have said, I do not even know the make-up of the plant but it has high levels of protein and the seed oil has many uses. It strikes me that looking at this from the perspective of the fibre alone is like doing a consultation or feasibility study on growing barley for straw. Am I right in saying that? The value of the barley is in the head and, from what I have heard, the situation is likewise for hemp. If it is to be a feasible crop, the farmer will not be growing it for the fibre but for the head.
Mr. Michael Moloney
I understand the comparison. With regard to barley for straw, there is a scheme where it is chopped for €100 an acre. That is the value of the straw but the grain is worth more than €300 a tonne at the moment. The difference here is that people are given a licence to grow the crop for the straw, in the main, and for the seeds, which are to be used for industrial uses. The other parts of the plant are not provided for under that licence. Farmers are prohibited from harvesting those elements under the Misuse of Drugs Acts.
Deputy Carthy suggested that we are out of sync with the EU in that regard. Is he correct? Is a trace level of 0.2%, which is to increase to 0.3% in 2023, accepted within the EU? This crop is recognised in EU CAP regulations. Will Mr. Moloney first confirm whether we are out of sync with the EU and-----
Mr. Michael Moloney
I will let my colleague answer that but I do not think-----
-----if that is true, will he tell me why that is the case?
Mr. Cara Mac Aodháin
Under the CAP, the acceptable level of THC is currently set at 0.2% in the plan for crops that are eligible for the basic payment. In the next CAP, that is to be set at 0.3% THC. National misuse of drugs regulations are different across the different member states. There are different THC limits under misuse of drugs regulations, which are separate from the CAP.
The HPRA will not license in Ireland any food product, whether agricultural food or otherwise, that contains any trace.
Mr. Cara Mac Aodháin
It does license crop varieties with a maximum of 0.2% THC and which are on the European catalogue of varieties. That will increase to 0.3% in the next CAP.
How are we going to square this circle if this crop has potential from an agricultural perspective? I am not trying to be flippant or smart but I can tell the witnesses the results of the consultation process they are carrying out at the moment and the contents of the report they are to send to the Minister because there will be no buy-in. I will again use that analogy and say that I cannot see any farmer buying in to grow barley for straw or to grow hemp for fibre. If it is to be a feasible and viable crop that yields a return, he or she is going to have to be able to sell, process and utilise the entire crop to maximise his or her income. As long as it falls under the misuse of drugs regulations, the Department will not be able to influence or change matters in that regard. How are we going to square that circle to make this crop a feasible and viable possibility for farmers?
Mr. Barry Caslin
I will clarify that there is a distinction with regard to the 0.2%. We can take in seed with a THC content of 0.2% that farmers can buy and sow. However, if we grow that seed and produce hemp-derived products, such as hemp oil or a CBD product, that contain any trace of THC, they will be illegal. The move at EU level will increase this allowed level from 0.2% to 0.3%. The exciting thing is that more varieties will be available to us to research and to grow. These may be high in CBD and low in THC. That is an exciting opportunity which we will have fairly soon, under the next CAP.
While you can bring the seed in, you still cannot get the maximum potential output from the crop grown from that seed because the HPRA will not license anything with any trace in it at all. The point I am trying to get is that, as long is this falls under the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2017, the agricultural potential is limited.
Mr. Barry Caslin
This goes back to a move that some countries have made to tolerate a level of 0.3% or even, in some countries, 1% THC in hemp-derived products. There is an issue there with regard to investors and insurance in this industry and in getting people involved. It creates a level of fear among potential investors that if there are trace amounts of THC in hemp-derived products, it will be illegal to sell them on the market.
We also have the situation whereby, if flower heads are being transported along the road, those farmers are transporting cannabinoids, which is illegal. An Garda Síochána could potentially stop those farmers from transporting a trailer-load of flower heads if there were any trace amount of it at all. That creates a bit of angst among growers and processors.
Basically, with regard to the development of this crop, we are in a vicious cycle between the two Departments. Is there an appetite within the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to try to right that wrong? I would call it a wrong. There is no point doing feasibility studies and consultation processes as we know the outcome at this stage. Is there an appetite within the Department to overcome this major problem and at least talk to the Department of Health?
Mr. Michael Moloney
With regard to being out of sync, it is important to point out, as Mr. Caslin has highlighted, that the regulations around the cultivation of hemp are not just strict in Ireland but across the EU and other countries. Where the difference lies is in the THC content. As Mr. Caslin outlined, some countries have a low threshold of 0.2%, 0.3% or 1%. Currently, as I understand it, the threshold here is zero. We will certainly help and give our feedback but the ball is not in our court. We do not own the ball. We are not responsible for the licensing of that product. It is primarily a matter for the Department of Health to consider the restrictions and whether they are justified. We had a consultation process on the regulations in 2018 and it was felt at that time that the current regulations should continue under the auspices of the Department of Health. If there is a viable alternative crop, we are certainly there to offer help and support. We are following the programme for Government, which referred to fibre crops. Hemp is only one of those. Flax and linseed are alternatives and that is what we have concentrated on to fulfil the commitment in the programme for Government. It is not within our remit to change those regulations, but if the crop is viable and we can help, we will consult our Government colleagues. It is not in our hands.
Mr. Barry Caslin
I just wanted to give a clarification. Sometimes people feel that there are issues with hemp oil but there are no issues with using hemp oil.
It is CBD oil.
Mr. Barry Caslin
Yes, CBD is the issue. Hemp oil is cold-pressed so there is no issue with THC content as it is not possible to get THC through that extraction method.
Can I legally import hemp by-products or products with a higher THC level - up to 0.3% - which cannot be processed here? Is it a constituent part of animal feed or any product, including human food or cosmetic products? Can it come in from other EU countries, having been processed in those countries, when we are not allowed process it here because of the content?
Mr. Michael Moloney
Based on my opening statement, I do not think that can be done. It is an offence to cultivate, import or export product, or supply and possess cannabis, including hemp, except in accordance with a licence issued by the Minister for Health. That is what it says in those regulations. I am not an expert but I do not think that is possible.
Could animal feed be coming in of which it would be a constituent part?
Mr. Michael Moloney
I am not aware of hemp being imported for animal feed. Our main imports for animal feed are the likes of maize and soy. I have never seen hemp on a list of imported feeds.
I have one short question for Teagasc. Its representatives have talked about the sequestration value. One of the hemp organisations that came before the committee told us that, if it is used as a rotation crop, there is a big increase in the yield of the following year's crop and less nutrient input is needed. Has Teagasc done any research into whether that would be the case?
Mr. John Spink
We have grown hemp in Oak Park. We did not specifically include it in a rotational experiment but introducing any non-cereal crop into a cereal rotation will result in an improvement in the following year's crop, usually just over a tonne a hectare. That is the result of a break in cereal diseases in the rotation. We would not expect crops such as hemp, beans or oilseed rape to be particularly different from each other. Invariably, using such crops will reduce fertiliser requirements and increase yield following a non-cereal crop. It would have a value in a cereal rotation in the same way as other non-cereal crops.
Is it true to say hemp has a very short life cycle? It is a four-month crop from sowing to harvest.
Mr. John Spink
Yes.
Mr. Barry Caslin
I will come in there. Ideally, it would be sown from early to mid April after the last frost, because that can set the crop back as it is growing, and harvested in September or around the time of the National Ploughing Championships. It can be tricky to harvest at that time of the year.
We had a nice touch of frost this morning.
Mr. Barry Caslin
This is it. Frost can be a challenge.
In the last week of April.
Mr. Barry Caslin
Research done at Oak Park showed that the earlier the crop got into the ground, the better the yield. It also outcompeted any weeds. One of the advantages of the crop is that it gets ahead of any weed seeds. We need rotation crops within tillage systems, so it is ideal as a rotation crop. The taproot of the hemp helps improve the soil structure and improves aeration within the soil, so it has many benefits that way.
I welcome the guests. It may just be me but I think the Department is a little dismissive of the development of the hemp industry. It has called it a niche crop and it seems to me there is no real intention of moving away from that position. It also said there was little evidence in the consultation showing how it could provide a meaningful income all along the supply chain. That seems short on ambition to me because at the same time the Department has funded Teagasc to do research on it. Is the Department giving adequate attention to the big potential for the growing of hemp in this country?
Mr. Michael Moloney
Could the Deputy repeat the question?
Is the Department giving adequate attention to the sector? The Department seems very dismissive. Everybody else seems to think there could be huge potential in the growing of hemp but the Department described it as niche.
Mr. Michael Moloney
At 150 ha, it is very niche. It is not widely grown. The maximum area grown was around 300 ha. I would not agree we are dismissive. There are difficulties with this crop that do not occur with any other crop. If I wanted to grow a crop of oilseed rape tomorrow morning - it is a bit late for that now - or if I wanted to grow a crop of maize tomorrow morning, I could get seed and a contractor or, if I had my own gear, put it in the ground and harvest it. Hemp is a completely different crop and it is not treated the same way. Farmers have to apply for a licence, which is only a one-year licence and only allows them to grow the crop for certain purposes. The representative organisations would contend that the most valuable parts of the crop are prohibited. I have said from the outset, and I have to continue to repeat myself, that is not within the remit of this Department to tell farmers they can now grow it for whatever reason they want or that they do not need a licence.
We can give our opinions, if asked, about that and we will. Mr. Mac Aodháin may have engaged with them more than I have, but I have met representative bodies and given them whatever support they need.
The crop is eligible under the basic payment scheme, so people are able to draw payment on that. With the tillage incentive scheme we announced earlier in the year, land that had hemp grown on it last year is eligible if an eligible crop is put on it this year. It would be eligible for that €400 payment in that case. Dr. O'Mara has outlined the funding the Department has put in, and in total that is certainly a significant amount of money that is being put into research for the crop.
Again, when we have asked about scalability and feasibility, it ultimately gets down to getting growers to plant the crop. It comes down to brass tacks and whether somebody will make a comparable or better income from this than what he or she may be doing. Those figures must be substantiated. To be fair to the representative bodies, they are enthusiastic about this and said there would be demand for 10,000 ha or this, that and the other. A business proposal must be developed.
As Senator Daly has said, if there is not a drive from the Department to change this, it appears dismissive of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It is leaving it with the Department of Health and plodding along with what has happened over the past couple of years. Unless there is a drive from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine itself to change this, there would be no confidence that a farmer would decide to double or treble his crop. Until there is a change on the departmental end, we will be having the same conversations over and over. It will not be classed as anything other than a niche crop grown on a small scale. The potential is there to expand the industry big time if the Department gives confidence to others.
Mr. Michael Moloney
Again, and with respect, I do not agree with the idea that we are being dismissive. There is talk about potential but we have not yet seen that backed up with financial information indicating the great potential for the crop to be grown on a wider scale. We are not the drivers of the change; we are not in control of the licensing or the regulations. The product is being dealt with and the result of the previous consultation in 2019 was a view that it should continue to be controlled by the Department of Health and dealt with by the HPRA in the licensing aspect. I cannot see how we can change that from within the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It is not within our gift to make those changes.
Is there uniformity across the EU in the way hemp will be treated?
Mr. Michael Moloney
The uniformity that exists relates to cultivation. There are similar strict regulations governing hemp and not just in Ireland. They are across other countries. The uniformity probably relates to CAP regulations, where there has been acknowledgement of and increased THC content in the seed to give a greater diversity of varieties that can be grown. That is only for the basic payment regulation, as such.
Is hemp controlled by the departments of health in other countries or is it controlled by their departments of agriculture? It comes under the Department of Health here but is it the same in different countries across Europe?
Mr. Cara Mac Aodháin
The THC limit going from 0.2% to 0.3% comes under the CAP, as I stated. The national drugs legislation has different maximum limits. I know that across the water in Britain the Home Office deals with the issuing of licences.
I am interested in whether the Department has looked into how many jobs may have been lost as a result of the 52% drop in the area sown with hemp. Has the Department examined why or engaged with the farmers in question about the reasons for this drop in the number of hectares sowed with hemp?
Mr. Michael Moloney
No, we have not engaged on the drop in area. We do not contact farmers to ask why they have dropped a crop and increased the number of hectares sowed with another crop. We have not engaged with them on that.
There was a 52% drop in the sector. I imagine in any sector, such as dairy or anywhere else, if there was a 52% drop, the Department would surely ask questions or try to find why there was such a drop in the sector.
Mr. Michael Moloney
For example, with spring barley in 2019 there were 94,000 ha sowed but the following year there were 141,000 ha sowed. In 2018, as another example of the same crop, there were 124,000 ha sowed, so that dropped to 94,000 ha sowed in the following year. There would have been a change in crop balance with respect to other crops. Farmers may have switched to winter crops on the basis of yield, as such, and spreading their workload.
We might start seeing a significant drop in cropping area. That happened in 2012, when there was a 50,000 ha drop, and last year, when there was a 9,000 resurgence in cropping area. That has stabilised over the past couple of years. We analyse why that is happening and in that case it probably came with the abolition of milk quotas and farmers looking at profitability within the farm gate, as I mentioned. They may have made the decision that dairying was more profitable than tillage, which led to the switch in that case. In this case I suspect the drop in hemp was down to the market in what to do with that product.
Does the Department have any figure on how much hemp or products derived from hemp are imported to the country? Could we get an idea of what products derived from hemp are brought to the country? What are those products used for? Perhaps then we could start cutting down on imports and the carbon footprint that goes with that. Do the witnesses have any figures on that?
Mr. Michael Moloney
We do not have any figures on hemp products. Senator Daly asked about feed, and although I am not over the feed area, I am not aware of hemp being imported for feed, as such. The products would likely be more for industrial use, as such.
I have some questions for Teagasc. Why has there been a lack of demand for hemp following the three research projects Teagasc mentioned? Is it purely a lack of need or were there other difficulties, such as legislation or the public perception?
Mr. Barry Caslin
Is the Deputy speaking about the lack of demand for hemp with growers or in the market?
I suppose it is the market. Is that why Teagasc believes there was a lack of demand?
Mr. Barry Caslin
As I said earlier, confidence is key. It is needed by farmers and in the right structures. There is a price for a kilo of beef, for example, or a litre of milk at the dairy co-op. If a farmer brings grain to the co-op, he or she gets a price per tonne and there are quality parameters in all those industries. Those structures are not currently there with hemp so farmers growing it now do so in a vacuum. They do not know what the market or the options will be. There are limited artisan-type markets around hemp, with some producers producing small amounts of CBD and hemp oil. The fibre is the key area and there is no use for that fibre. In a way it is a pity. If it is grown for botanicals, seed and CBD, all the fibre is being left on the ground. It is a lot of carbon that is being allowed to biodegrade on the ground.
Ideally, we should have some kind of an industry to give confidence to the growers so they know they have a market outlet for it. That would be a market for utilising the fibre and locking it up as hempcrete or insulation material in buildings, for example, and maybe building modular homes using the likes of hempcrete.
We have the lime in the country. Lime is mixed with the shivs or hurds and water. We have all the ingredients to produce the material in the country such that we do not necessarily need to use so much concrete in buildings. What we really need is to give confidence to people so they will move into the houses built with hemp. We need engineers and architects to be confident about all this as well. We are agronomists within Teagasc, so I am not too sure about the level of understanding of using hemp and living in a hemp house within those fraternities or industries. It has been done. We are not starting from scratch here. It has been done in other countries. There are hemp houses around Europe, including Ireland. The first in Ireland was in County Longford. Many more have been built since. A lack of confidence is the key to why the markets have not evolved to the level we would like to see.
Mr. Caslin has more or less answered my final question, which relates to the research on MDF. It has been claimed that hemp has great potential for retrofitting, construction and installation. Has Teagasc data to back that up?
Mr. Barry Caslin
The research referred to by Professor O'Mara was with MEDITE SMARTPLY, Clonmel. It considered the use of hemp for MDF. It was quite a success, but there are competing sources of fibre. When we were considering hemp some years ago, we were doing so from an energy perspective. We were looking into mixing hemp with the likes of miscanthus or wood sawdust to make pellets for energy. In retrospect, it is a waste of very valuable material just to burn it as a pellet in a biomass boiler. We have heard a lot about the crop over recent years. There are so many options, from food and feed to fuel and fibre. Confidence will be so important. There are legislative issues. There is a lack of confidence among potential growers because they do not see the market at present.
I have a final question. It is for the Department. To go back to the 2018 consultation, it was said there is a lack of evidence to prove a meaningful income could be provided all along the supply chain. Can Mr. Moloney expand on the evidence sought and the research the Department carried out to ascertain that? How high did it set the bar?
Mr. Michael Moloney
My colleague, Mr. Mac Aodháin, might address some of those questions. We did not set a bar; we asked for the evidence to be provided to us to show the scalability. In other words, we asked the representative bodies to show us what they felt the industry's prospects were and to back up their views. It is fine to say the crop will make €1,000 per acre or hectare but the statement has to be backed up by sound data. It was a matter of determining the margin at the processing end and whether the crop is viable. Everyone will have to make money out of it for it to be viable. We did not set any bar. The bar was basically for the representative bodies to give us the information and back it up with the facts and figures.
There are 18,000 ha involved in France. Are the French governed by the same regulations that apply to us regarding the way in which the crop can be harvested? Could the representatives from Teagasc state whether there is an economic model coming out of France indicating the return per hectare? By comparison with the overall tillage area in France, 18,000 ha is still small.
Mr. Michael Moloney
Regarding the 18,000 hectares, I am not sure whether the French are regulated in the same way as we are.
Surely when there is just one CAP, there should be uniformity of regulation across the EU regarding a tillage crop.
Mr. Michael Moloney
Going back to my earlier comments, the crop is not treated in the same way as a tillage crop because of the presence of THC. The regulatory arrangements cross over into drugs regulation. As identified earlier, the bars can be set by member states at different levels; there is no uniformity, but there is uniformity on the varieties that can be grown for the basic payment scheme. In France, the 18,000 ha have crops with a THC content of 0.2%, but each member state could and does have a different level for THC content for the products.
I find it hard to understand that, for an agricultural crop, there could be different standards across the EU. With milk, we have the same somatic cell counts and standards. The same standards have to be met for every product produced in the EU. I find it hard to understand how a crop like hemp can be subject to different standards in different EU countries.
Mr. Michael Moloney
It is not the same as milk, beef or another crop. I am not aware of any other mainstream crop that contains-----
I am not questioning what it contains; I am asking why there is no uniformity across the EU. We have the Single Market. The crop is governed under the CAP so I cannot understand how it is treated differently in different EU countries. I am not questioning the decision. Obviously, the Council of Ministers will make a decision on crops but I find it hard to understand how there cannot be uniformity. Could the delegates comment on the profitability in France?
Mr. Barry Caslin
I cannot say what the profitability in France is. In France, Germany, Lithuania and other countries around Europe, the hemp industry is combined with other industries. In the Normandy area of France, for example, the hemp industry has been combined with the flax industry. There is processing capacity there. Where the industries can be combined, the same type of equipment can be used for decortication. That is what is making it work in the countries in question. About four companies in Ireland are importing the fibre from hemp. There is one in Monaghan and another in Kerry. The companies are using the product for insulation material.
As Senator Paul Daly said, that is only the straw of the crop.
Mr. Barry Caslin
That is right. In France, it is the straw component that is being separated through decortication, and the fibres are being used for insulation and building blocks. We are importing hemp building blocks from a Belgian company, IsoHemp. A good critique or study could be done on what we are importing. The industry specialists who met the members some weeks ago will probably have figures on that. We more or less come from the agronomic side and do not focus on what the different markets are returning.
I thank the witnesses for participating in today's meeting. It is the second we have had on hemp. It is a crop that has potential if we can get all our-----
On the last point, have we even got a figure on how many hemp blocks have been imported?
Mr. Barry Caslin
I was just saying that while I know blocks are coming in from a Belgian company, I do not know the level of importation. At the moment, we are talking about retrofitting many houses to bring them up to a high building energy rating. That is where I see the opportunities in construction. This is probably where it all needs to be explored a little further. The role in retrofitting, and perhaps modular homes and new builds, needs to be examined.
This brings me back to what I asked earlier. While responsibility is left under the Department of Health, we will never be able to build up the industry. There is so much uncertainty. Farmers will not have the confidence to invest to increase the crop yield enough to make blocks or insulation. Therefore, we will have to continue importing the material.
Mr. Barry Caslin
There is no issue in using the fibres for building blocks, but there is no processing capacity in Ireland at the moment. There is no issue either in using hemp seed to produce hemp seed oil.
Yes, but the farmers are just not producing enough to make it viable.
Mr. Barry Caslin
Yes, that is a key point. A critical mass of the crop is needed to justify building a decortication plant.
Many things could be done under one umbrella at a site, as with a biorefinery. A site could be producing the construction material and processing the fibres. On the same site, one could be processing the food components into hemp oils, and potentially processing the flowers, if allowed, into CBD. All the constituents of the plant then would be used, which would make the economics far more favourable and give confidence to the market.
It will never be viable to grow hemp to make blocks if there is no market or use for all the other constituent parts; that is the bottom line.
To build the industry, should responsibility remain with the Department of Health or would it grow quicker and better, and be viable, if it were transferred to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine? Can the witnesses give an opinion on that?
I do not think I am going to allow that to be answered. The departmental officials will not answer anyway. It would not be fair to put Teagasc in that position either. We have made our points fairly strongly.
I thank the witnesses for participating. At our next public meeting, we will undertake an examination of the role of solar energy in the agriculture industry. We will possibly have a private meeting after that public meeting.
The joint committee adjourned at 8.21 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 4 May 2022.