JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht

Role of Women in Sport: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome our guests to the meeting. The main reason we invited these spokespersons was because we are doing a rapid tour study on the role of women in sport and these three women know a good deal about the subject. We will offer each of them an opportunity to make a contribution of between five and ten minutes followed by questions from members of the committee. I hope that what they have to say will spark questions from members. I am sure members already have questions in mind as to the meaning of sport and women's role in it.

I welcome Maeve Kyle who is well known in sporting circles and has been around long enough to have gathered information as a result of the many changes that have taken place in society. I hope she accepts that comment in the spirit in which it is meant. Ms Kyle has witnessed change in most aspects of sport and society and I am sure the information she will provide will be important. I also welcome Ms Debbie Massey, chief executive officer of Basketball Ireland, and Ms Gina Menzies, former chairperson of the taskforce on women in sport.

I remind our visitors that while members have privilege in this committee, those attending the committee do not share the same privilege. However, I doubt that will be an issue. I invite Ms Kyle to begin.

Ms Maeve Kyle

I am a very old lady. I played my first game of anything with a cut-down hockey stick - I hardly dare tell the committee this - 70 years ago this year. It may be interesting to look at the importance of sport when I was growing up, where it went and where it can go as a part of women's lives.

I grew up in a boys' school with three brothers and did not actually realise I was a girl. It was a Protestant school with a Protestant sports ethos and not realising I was a girl, I played all the sports the boys played. My father was a liberal man. I played handball in an alley when I was five or six years of age and I played hurling with some of the boys, although I regret to say I never played camogie. We did not play football in Kilkenny, it was not known there. I managed to play the odd game of rugby until my father caught me, I swam in the river and did all the things the boys did. I rode bicycles around the countryside and was a thoroughly active youngster. Sport was our social life. We had tennis courts, played tennis and organised tournaments all summer. Teachers were probably not paid quite as well then as they are now. Apparently, they were hardly paid at all and as there were five children in my family there was no money for anything. Sport was our way of life.

I am not sure that as a young person I would have known what a league sport was. If people were good at sport they could move a bit higher and I was lucky enough to play international hockey quite early on in my life. To play at that level was certainly not a goal which is quitedifferent from nowadays. I grew up at a time when women, as the men would say, knew their place. They knew where they were in society and had a very definite role in it. I have always believed that Irish society is quite matriarchal.

As society changed and women became a bit more prominent in society, they did the same in sport. In 1956 I was sent to the Olympics inMelbourne. By that time I had married and people said I could run. I was running in the North as women were not allowed take part in athletics in Ireland. It was not considered quite nice to show one's knees and playing hockey we had to wear long black stockings in order that no flesh would be apparent. Northern Ireland was more advanced in some ways and had women's athletics. I often say I was the suffragette of women's athletics. I went to the Olympics with 12 men, which was great fun, and no management, which was even better fun. I ironed their trousers and made sure they did not wear sweaters under their blazers in the parade. Women were expected to do many of these things. The Olympics were a great experience for me and I realised then that women had a role in the world of sport at an elite level.

Although I have always been lucky to be involved in elite sport which has an important role, I do not think it is the most important role. That may surprise some people. I taught and coached, and still coach four, five or six days a week. I have been and remain involved in all sorts of sporting activities and I am grateful for that.

Probably one of the most useful roles I have played was in the North. During the worst of times there I was asked to run a programme in Antrim for women who had never taken part in sport. These were women from their mid-20s to their late-30s. The leisure centre and equipment was made available to them without charge and a place provided for the children to be looked after. The women would not come singly but came in threes or fours with their friends. We devised various simple sports, without rules, for them. We played volleyball over a badminton net with a play ball but from that a small group developed and formed a volleyball team which won the Ulster league. I thought that was wonderful. They wanted to do that. While 90% of the women were not interested in competition, they enjoyed participating.

That was an interesting programme. It was also extraordinary in that about 80% of the women on the programme got jobs. We had about 100 women on the programme every week but they kept disappearing. I did not know where they had gone but they were getting jobs. Their self-esteem had gone up and they became more employable.

That was then but now things are different and sport has a completely different role. We live in a litigious society so there are huge restrictions on those who want to help young or older people to get involved in sport. Families are smaller with one or two siblings at the most and society all over western Europe is more affluent. We have working parents and also, my bête noire, the electronic age. We have mobiles with televisions, televisions in toddlers bedrooms and computers. I always say these are the cheapest form of babysitting or childminding.

I find it sad that children are denied the opportunity to take part, I do not even call it sport, in physical activity. No part of the British Isles has a good programme for primary school children. If we do not get primary school children involved in going out to play - very few of them do - we must provide some means by which they can learn to take risks, use their imagination and develop self-esteem through play. We in western Europe have lost our way a bit on this. I have just returned from a conference in Malta where I was partly relieved and partly horrified to find that this seems to be a problem in many countries in western Europe.

Education has an enormous part to play in the development of physical activity, particularly for girls. If girls have had no access to physical activity in the form of sport, or whatever, until they enter secondary school at 12 years of age, we will not be able to switch them on then to sport. They will not want to go out and get wet and muddy on a hockey field in an adult game with adult rules if they have never experienced even the mini-rules version of the game.

We have a huge problem facing us. In many instances it is not cool for girls to play sport but it is fine if they are members of clubs. Women's GAA has been particularly good in recent years at encouraging girls to participate. Many other sports encourage girls through their club system but with minimal human resources. Human resources are perhaps a more important factor than physical resources. There are huge human resources which we do not use, grannies, non-working mothers and retired people. We do not ask them to become involved. My club has done some research and found that these people are delighted to be invited to become involved and are very good. They are responsible, have time and are thrilled to bits to be asked.

What is the future for women's sport and where do we go from here? We must introduce some sort of fundamental programme teaching the development of motor skills at primary school level. Have committee members ever tried to teach a 12 year old to ride a bicycle? It takes about three times as long as it takes to teach a six year old. We must start sooner.

Women, in particular, need a choice. They need a choice as to whether to take part in women's sport, mixed sport, competitive sport or participatory sport. The best example that women are more turned on by participating in sport than by competing, although many women compete at a high level and should be encouraged to do so, is Dublin's women's mini-marathon. It is an example of what women will do if given the opportunity. It is not really competitive but just gets women out there doing it which is great. On the adult side of women in sport, I was nearly thrown out of a conference on one occasion where the golfing ladies were having a serious problem about not being allowed into golf clubs. I started on the wrong foot by saying I had never had any problem being a woman because I found I had access to most places. If men or whoever want to have a single sex golf club I do not see a problem; I say to women, "Well come on, form your own if you want to be different". Of course there should be equity and people should have opportunities but I hate to see it made into a political football.

Perhaps the biggest problem for women in sport is that they have less time than men. I am delighted to see there are four women here who I am sure will agree with me. We live in a society where most women are still expected to juggle a job, a family and caring for the children. Some husbands are absolutely wonderful. I am still trying to teach mine to find out which corner the dishwasher is in. It is perhaps a sign of our developing society where women seem to have a very definite multi-role and if they have children it is obvious they will not have much time for sport. The problem is if one does not continue to take part in physical activity it is very hard to go back to it at a later stage. We all get involved in our jobs and do not have time any more but a little time management never goes astray, one can always find ten minutes to do something even if it is on the floor in the sitting room.

We need to underline that the health and development of both young and old, needs physical activity as a part of our daily life. I do not mind whether it is in organised high level competitive sport but people need to be able to participate. I do not think children should be asked to play mini versions of adult sport. I like to see children playing their own games, using their own imagination, making their own rules. If they started a game yesterday and the score by their rules was four-three yesterday to one side they can continue it tomorrow and perhaps the other side will score something. It is immaterial with children.

The most popular place in the town I live in is a new playground which was built at great cost where the children can go and do everything. It provides facilities for playing the old street games. There are swinging posts, a high pillar with a cable attached and a big tyre. The children sit in the tyre and go shooting down. They have not arrested me yet but they probably will. There are balancing logs. In fact it contains all the things that some of the members are old enough to remember doing as children. We need to give the children more opportunities to do these things.

Ms Gina Menzies

I am delighted to have the opportunity to talk to the committee. In 1997 I was asked to chair a task force on women in sport. We deliberated on the subject for approximately two years. I brought along the recommendations of that task force for the consideration of the committee. It may be useful for the committee to have the entire document which in no respect is a definitive document but it may help its deliberations. From a personal perspective, I come from a slightly different generation to Maeve Kyle. I grew up believing that sport was egalitarian. My mother played sport and that was of great relevance to me. Some of our findings have underlined how relevant it is for a parent to participate in sport and that sport is part of the family situation. I was lucky enough to go to a school that encouraged sport. Like Maeve, I played a bit of everything. I even played a weird and wonderful game called lacrosse which people do not know about. It is a terrific game and the reason it was played in my school was because we did not have the funds and resources to have a good hockey pitch. Lacrosse is a game which does not need a level playing pitch; it can be full of humps and bumps. As Maeve stated, it did not really matter what sport one played as long as one was doing something. Subsequently, I took up racquet sports and I played squash at national level. I have a perspective that covers the elite level but, like Maeve, I am far more interested in the participation level for the whole population.

The elite sportspersons will probably make it anyway because to be an elite sportsperson means one is a very driven individual. To be a participant one needs a lot of support systems. I am now the first woman member of the executive of a club which up to 1996 did not accept women members. It is a great privilege and it has been a good experience. I personally encountered no discrimination but I believe that there is discrimination and there are significant obstacles to the participation of women in sport.

I will refer to the task force objectives and recommendations and I wistfully wonder where they are today. I wish to highlight the main findings of that report. The task force was established in 1997 to examine the current situation of Irish girls and women in sport and to suggest strategies and recommendations to increase the involvement of girls and women in all aspects of sport and recreational activities, including participation, coaching, administration and decision-making.

There were more than 100 submissions, many from NGBs, from individuals and from bodies such as the PE Association of Ireland. The recommendations suggested the adoption of the Brighton principles. There was a significant conference held in Brighton in 1994. To this day, as far as I am aware, Ireland has never adopted those principles which have been adopted by most other countries. The principles are: to ensure that all women and girls have the opportunity to participate in sport in a safe and supportive environment which preserves the rights, dignity and respects the individual; to increase the involvement of women in sport at all levels and in all functions and roles; to ensure that the knowledge, experiences and values of women contribute to the development of sport; to promote the recognition of women's development in sport as a contribution to public life and community development; and to promote the recognition by women of the intrinsic value of sport in its contribution to personal development.

I will not read out the 26 recommendations but I will refer to some of them. We agree with the recommendation that the Sports Council should gender-proof all its own policies and operations and lead by example. The Sports Council should reflect Government policy on gender balance as it does regarding other groupings and in its membership of committees. The Sports Council should provide additional funding to any organisation, particularly national governing bodies who initiate a programme that is directly aimed at increasing the involvement and participation of girls and women in sport. Models of best practice would not be particularly common in Irish sport and it would therefore behove the Sports Council to provide those models by having ongoing research into what happens in other countries.

The Sports Council should insist that NGBs in so far as they pertain to each gender should have some form of equity policy written into their constitution. We feel strongly that there was a need to commission some kind of national survey to establish the availability and extent of physical education provision for children within the formal sector, within the youth sector and within the community. That is a significant obstacle which we must face and I suspect the committee has to face also, in that as of 1997 and even to this day, there have been no national surveys undertaken on the subject of the involvement of women in sport, either as participants, as elite athletes, as coaches or administrators. We do not really know what the situation is. We have a perception and we know that there are major problems in the PE area, that PE is not universally available across the board for all children and particularly for girls. As Maeve Kyle stated, if girls have not partaken in some form of recreational activity - I mean very non-competitive recreational activity - by the age of 12, it is then too late and they have been lost.

I know the Chairman is involved in the world of music. It is quite difficult to take up a musical instrument once one gets to a certain stage. In an earlier life I was a language teacher and I know it is very difficult to take up a language. Children become bilingual at the age of four if they live in a bilingual household and it is similar in the case of recreational activities. If children do them as a natural extension of their environment they can build on it. If they have missed that opportunity then it is doubly difficult to rescue it later on and this has been strongly emphasised by Ms Kyle.

Another area that I believe would sell the idea of sport and which I hope would encouragepolicy-makers to take it more seriously is the benefits in terms of health. Many are not aware of the benefits and I will spell them out for the committee. One in four Irish women will have osteoporosis in later years. That means one quarter of the population will have osteoporosis. Their bones become brittle and they are much more vulnerable when they fall. Hospital wards are full of women of a certain age, usually 60 plus, who have all sustained fractures to the pelvis, arms or legs because their bones are weakened. One of the methods of prevention of osteoporosis besides the importance of calcium in the diet is physical activity. Women who partake in physical activity in their teen years when they are growing will find that they avoid osteoporosis in later years. There is a direct correlation. Dr. Máire O'Brien of Trinity College has done significant research in this area. I suggest the committee invite her to talk about the medical aspects. As a society we are not highly aware of the connection. This absolute benefit of participation in sport should be acknowledged in Government policy.

We were of the opinion that there should be somebody within the Sports Council to spearhead the area of women in sport. If nobody is responsible for an area it then falls between the responsibilities of everybody else. I note the national sports awards which were listed in today's newspaper. It was good to see two women receiving awards, a camogie player and the Olympic walker. I would like to see the day when 50% of those awards are to women. I would love to see an annual awards system for women in sport and for those who have achieved at the level other than elite level. I envisage an awards system that acknowledges the achievements and contribution made at all levels within local communities and sporting organisations, and concentrates on the administrators and coaches and not just on the stars. I am aware that Carol-Anne Byrne wishes to make a presentation to the committee on that matter.

The report of the task force examined the role of the media and the sociological obstacles to the participation of women in sport. One of the good aspects of the Irish media treatment of sport is that it does not tend to sexualise photographs and stories about women when they participate in sport. On the negative side, the coverage of women's sport is very poor. I once interviewed a woman Olympian who is a sailor. She found it difficult to find sponsorship and without sponsorship and coverage one does not go any further. This girl had taken a year out of college to train for the Olympics. She was trying very hard to obtain sponsorship because boats are very expensive to maintain. She contacted a journalist who told her that when she could provide a story such as falling out of the boat and being in danger of drowning or when her coach makes a pass at her then he would give her front page coverage. She got no coverage and she struggled very hard to find sponsorship. There are obstacles and problems associated with the media but in general the coverage is not sexualised and I am very grateful for that but it is very paltry coverage and that is a shame.

There are three other significant findings that I wish to explain to the committee. We are very aware of the importance of physical education at an early age. We need to examine the state of PE in schools for both boys and girls. We conducted a survey in the form of a questionnaire asking boys, girls, men and women why they participated in sport. The main finding was a significant number of the boys and men answered that it was for reasons of competition. If boys are put into an arena they want to compete immediately. Girls answered that they participated in sport for reasons of fun, socialisation and health. That is not to say that girls are not competitive but there are many other reasons which should be recognised.

The concept of the model of sport obtaining in Ireland is not anything that was planned. It has grown up and grows out of the lives of young boys where sport is a natural extension of their own growing up. Even when people want to bring about equity in sport they have tended to say to girls and women, "of course you can participate and play all the sports you want". I have met men on national governing bodies for years who were always asking women to join them on the national governing body. I asked them to consider why women did not take up the invitation. It is more than just opening the door and asking them to join, the existing bodies need to remodel and a new paradigm is required that responds to the needs of women and girls in sport.

The reasons women and girls are encouraged to play sport must be examined. One of the significant findings of the task force was that in families where the parents and particularly, the mother, took part in sport, the female children in particular were much more likely to become involved. My experience reflects those findings. I thought everybody's mother played sport but it is not so. We discovered that where there was a supportive framework which was mainly parental and mothers in the case of girls, teachers and coaches, that encouraged girls to take up and stay in some form of recreational activity. An examination of other countries such as New Zealand, for example, shows that girls who play netball which is a minority sport in Ireland, have a high profile in New Zealand and photos of the netball players appear on the back of the cornflakes box because they are as important in New Zealand as the All Blacks rugby team, believe it or not. The country that produces the All Blacks also produces female netball players who are very big stars in their own right.

An egalitarian system in sport will mean more involvement by women. Another significant model was the composition of Olympic teams in 1996. If I asked the committee to guess which Olympic team had a majority of women as participants, would it be surprised to hear that the answer is Norway? The Norwegians obviously made a strategic decision at some stage to encourage and organise their sports so that women could participate. I make no apologies for the gaps in the report. One of the significant gaps is on the sociological aspects because we were not expert enough in that field. Katie Liston who is in the public gallery wishes to address the committee at a later stage to discuss the areas where obstacles exist.

The reasons women and girls take part in sport are somewhat different from the reasons boys and men take part. Unless the framework and policies embrace that difference, I do not think anything will change. An ancient philosopher, Plato, in his writings said there were three elements to education, of which I am sure the Chairman is aware. They were: aesthetics, mathematics and gymnastics. Those three areas cover all human development in art and creativity, mathematics and gymnastics which is to do with bodily development. Plato wrote a long time ago but the Irish educational system has yet to embrace that philosophy and it would be my wish for it to do so.

Ms Debbie Massey

I have addressed this committee before in my capacity as the general secretary of the Federation of Irish Sports. I am delighted to attend today in my capacity as the chief executive officer of Basketball Ireland and to have the opportunity to speak specifically about basketball in the context of women's sport. I wish to provide the committee with a brief overview of the numbers participating in the sport and give some feedback from women basketball players where they determined the factors preventing progress in developing the game of women's basketball.

The second page of the document I circulated to the committee indicates that there are approximately 125,000 people involved in playing basketball. The sport of basketball has recently undergone a major strategic review and we are still gathering the facts regarding membership. I will give approximate figures to the committee but they are very similar to the actual numbers. Approximately 25,000 people play at community level, that is utilising the community hoops scheme which is funded by the Department through the capital grants system and where the facilities are located in local authority areas, in flat complexes and in public playgrounds. We have 20,000 members playing at club level and a total of 180,000 people playing. A large number are involved at participation level, particularly women.

Basketball is quite unique and our membership appears to be panning out at roughly 50-50 male and female, men, women, boys and girls. Unlike a comment made earlier, basketball is perceived to be a cool, sexy sport and it is played indoors in comfort. As a result, young girls are more likely to take it up in secondary schools even though they may not have been exposed to it at primary level. Secondary school basketball is the strongest sector of the sport. Of the boys and girls secondary schools, the girls' sector is the strongest.

We carried out an exercise with the female sector of the sport. The document outlines for the committee the number of teams playing in the super league, division one and down to local area level and the number of teams participating at area boards and in schools competitions. I have also outlined some information on how we promote women's basketball within the sport. I concur with the view that it does not receive as much exposure in the media as the men's sport and therefore it is more difficult to achieve sponsorship for the female sport even at the top level such as national team level and senior domestic competition.

Basketball has a severe cost factor problem. Prior to my involvement with basketball I spent 13 years in administration with the GAA. For the past two and a half years I have been involved in basketball. I was astounded at the cost involved in playing basketball. It can cost an individual player anything up to €400 per year for the privilege of playing the sport. Much of the cost is to do with the hiring of gyms and paying of referees fees.

There are factors which we contend are preventing progress in developing the women's game of basketball and these have been highlighted by some of the previous speakers. Access to facilities has been mentioned and there is a cost involved. I have been pursuing an interesting situation with the Department of Education and Science. There are criteria laid down for the size of gym halls. A gym hall needs to be a particular size to fit a basketball court. The Department gives permission to secondary schools on the dimensions of a proposed gym in direct proportion to the projected pupil intake. In many cases the schools will not achieve a full basketball court because the numbers may not be sufficient. I am aware of one case and there may be others where the school in question and a local neighbouring GAA club were prepared to pool resources in order to find the additional money to build the extra number of metres required for the full court because the school did not qualify under the pupil intake criteria but that was also forbidden by the Department.

The lack of grant aid is another issue and basketball as a sport is not asset rich. The National Basketball Arena belongs to Basketball Ireland and Neptune Stadium in Cork is owned by the Neptune club. Every game of basketball played in the country is played in hired halls. We are in the process of gathering data on charges but the ballpark figure is approximately €40 per hour which is very expensive when one considers the training needs for the competitive teams. The capital grants system militates against basketball as we do not have capital assets and find it difficult to draw down funds unlike other sports that have either land or facilities or the capacity to purchase same and draw down funding. We are grateful for the funding we receive through the community hoops programme.

We believe that there is a gender-based view of sport by both men and women. Sport is not emphasised in school PE classes. There is a lack of column inches and television and radio coverage. There are probably too few role models of women sportspeople. Players are viewed as women first in many instances and not as sportswomen. I emphasise that these are statements collected from women basketball players and are genuine views within the sport. In some cases there are unsupported partners or spouses and that is linked to child care and freedom to get out of the house for training or competitions. The woman is the primary care giver in the family. Private sector sponsorship and patronage is weak.

There is a failure to recognise the identified benefits of continued participation in sport such as the reduced levels of pre-menopausal breast cancer. Women who exercise regularly are significantly less likely to contract breast and other reproductive cancers. Players have commented that in mixed schools there have been traditionally fewer opportunities for girls to participate and there is probably no requirement for schools to offer equal opportunities. Our best players end up seeking scholarships in the United States. The committee may have heard of Susan Moran, a famous female basketball player who went through the Irish school system. Susan plays in the US and has played in Europe.

As part of the review of the sport, significant commitments have been made by the governing body of the game which will have a positive impact on the female side of the sport. As part of our governance and central structures we will be putting in place before the end of this year a commission which will take this document further and see how the governing body can help alleviate the difficulties faced by women players. A point that was referred to was the whole question of a competitions model in any given sport tends to be a traditional model or something that is inherited. Starting this month, we as a sport are undertaking a competitions review with a view to rolling out a new competitions model on a phased basis starting at the end of 2004. It is always difficult to review what is traditional and the way things are done around here, and to change what people are used to. Change is difficult in itself.

We have reached the point where we have been able to unify the sport and streamline and implement best practice with the governance. I believe the competitions model review will also be accepted. It connects very well with the work of the national coaching and training centre and Dr. Istvan Balyi, who is the international consultant for player pathway, whereby if there is a decent competitions model - the same applies equally to men and women - we will end up with higher quality and more opportunities for elite players and more opportunity for participation levels if that is as far as the athlete or player wishes to go.

We hope those two main initiatives will make a difference to women's involvement in the sport. That is all I have to say in giving an overview of that matter. The remainder of the documentation is available to the committee.

Chairman

I am just laughing to myself. It was stated that men in general probably take sports more competitively than females. My mother phoned my five year old nephew who recently started playing rugby to ask how his game went. He replied that it was not a game, but a match. There was also reference to the Norwegian females on that country's Olympic team. I believe Scandinavian representation in parliament is also far more equitable.

Ms Menzies

Politically they adopted a policy requiring 40% representation, which seems to have worked.

Chairman

We could finish the meeting very quickly if we concluded that our recommendation should be 40% representation. Someone asked if it mattered whether females were allowed on golf courses. If we are considering the public perception of the role of women, it does matter whether it is perceived as acceptable that women might not be allowed on a course. It goes back to society's view of the role of women. In the case of the politician, should she be teaching in a school and not be up there in Dublin? The same applies to the sports person. Should she be making the tea for the participating boys or washing the jerseys afterwards? Unless the media accept the notion that it is cool to play, will we go any further?

When talking about women in sport, should we be calling it a sport? Ms Menzies made the distinction of children having recreation up to the age of 12 and thereafter having sport. What do we mean by women's participation in sport? Should it be women's participation in recreational activity as opposed to women's participation in sport? I would like to hear the comments of Ms Menzies on that matter.

There is huge capital investment in many areas now. Perhaps this is like Santa delivering wonderful Christmas presents and the child has more fun with the boxes than with the presents. Are we listening to what the children need or want? In my day an elastic band was used for the high jump and two coats were used as goalposts in football. At that time every wee girl loved to play with the horse. Are we providing sufficient equipment?

Success breeds success. The Donegal ladies won the all-Ireland ladies junior football final this year. This was the first time I saw not only such media exposure but also such acceptance by men that the match was worth watching. When I heard certain men had done so I did not know why. However, because Donegal was involved, those from Donegal rallied around the cause of the county just as we all rally around Ireland when one of our international teams is playing. In that sense success breeds success. We are at one point in a circle. How do we increase that success to breed further success? It can only happen through role modelling. Should we start with the mother, the baby, the primary school or the secondary school? The witnesses seem to suggest we should start with primary schools. However, perhaps we should start with the mother and toddler. Unless the baby sees the mother participating, she is unlikely to do so herself.

Ms Massey referred to standalone basketball courts. I accept the issue she raised about the rules of the Department of Education and Science and the problems this causes for accommodating a basketball court in a school gym. That is not practical or sensible. Currently ten different groups in a small area may seek lottery funding for ten different facilities. If a community centre is being proposed there should be co-ordination to ensure the needs of basketball, boxing, etc., are met. This will ensure that insurance and other matters can be spread and will avoid creating white elephants. While considerable money is being invested someone needs to look at the overall picture. While individually there are very good projects, there are some gaps.

Deputy Deenihan

I am delighted to have three such respected speakers to address us. Maeve Kyle was the first role model for women in Irish sport. At the time participation by women in sport was not common. More than anyone else Ms Kyle gave women the confidence to participate, for which we are grateful. It is wonderful that she is still with us and able to bring us knowledge since 1950 and advising us as to how we should go forward. Gina Menzies was a great international squash player and was chairperson of the taskforce. When I am eventually drawn into port, it is important that we will not be just going over old ground.

Chairman

Did the Deputy say "eventually"?

Deputy Deenihan

It will take a while. We will be able to look at the report of the taskforce, which took some years to complete involving a major input from many people. In Debbie Massey we have one of the greatest administrators in Irish sport, both in the GAA and in basketball. We have got a very good overview of what is happening in Irish sport at present. I have an interest in this topic, as I was a PE teacher for eight years before going into politics. It is obvious that we do not have a sports culture of practiced gender equality here. It riles me when I see some of my male friends look with disdain on women's participation in sport here. The psychological barrier of women performing in sport must first be broken down. This goes from the top down to sport at a local level.

Women in this country, and sportswomen in particular, have been rather tolerant of the obstacles they have had to overcome which should never have been there if they had been treated as equals. All women want is equal access, equal opportunity and the right to participate. While we all have our own views, as it is such a broad subject it is important we make the best use of the witnesses' time.

I carried out a survey in conjunction with a seminar I held last February. I watched the papers over some time and discovered that 97% of images in the papers were of males or male teams and only 3% were of women. The results of this survey tallied with another carried out a year earlier by Dublin City Council and with other reports. We will invite the sports editors of all the newspapers to attend a meeting of this committee. I agree with the witnesses, without coverage, women will not get sponsorship. Without sponsorship, the particular sport cannot be developed. It is vital that the sports editors give coverage to women's sports.

As a former Gaelic footballer, I believe that ladies Gaelic football is far more attractive than its male counterpart. This is why more people who like the game are attending the ladies version rather than the men's. It is a more free-flowing and better quality game with less obstruction, etc.

I recently read some American newspapers, which gave extensive coverage to the ladiessoccer world cup. While I accept this was played in America, nevertheless it received massive coverage, including front-page coverage, in major newspapers. People in Ireland hardly knew that competition was taking place. A few years ago the Irish hockey team played in the hockey world cup. Apart from one journalist who has an interest in this sport, very little coverage was given here. The team did not even have a sponsor going to the world cup competition. This sums up the problems that we have here.

Do the witnesses believe the proposal for a special awards system for women would work? Among the winners of the Texaco Stars of the Year, were two women, one of whom, I am proud to say, was a Kerry-woman, Gillian O'Sullivan. I believe the proposal is good.

In America, under chapter 9, the Government has to spend a certain amount on women both in college and outside. As a result participation in female athletics and other sports has grown considerably in the colleges. Would such a scheme in Ireland be helpful? While national lottery funding application forms seek confirmation that all genders are catered for, should all national lottery grants be gender-proofed to ensure that facilities for women are always provided when buildings are constructed?

We all realise that physical education is non-existent for girls after third year in post-primary schools. Are there any suggestions as to how to even introduce the basic physical education programmes into our schools? In many cases school authorities, including that in my local school, are forced to use the gymnasium as a classroom. Physical education only takes place at wealthy schools or where there is an enthusiastic principal and is almost non-existent even in primary schools, except during the summer when teachers can take the children out on a fine day.

When we prepare the report, what areas should we emphasise in order to make the report useful not only for organisations, but also as a vehicle for Government change?

Senator Ó Murchú

I welcome the witnesses. I found the taskforce recommendations very comprehensive, sensible and reasonable. At times one wonders why these issues are still outstanding. Given that equality is very much centre stage these days, it is surprising that one has to wait for a taskforce report to create some momentum.

While some of the points I will raise deal more with perception, there is an underlying reality to some of those perceptions. There is a perception abroad that there is an increased incidence of smoking among young females. Even without a report one can observe this. The witnesses rightly link health and sport in the recommendations, which makes considerable sense. What stance, if any, did the witnesses take on the ban on smoking in particular venues? If no stance was taken, why not? I can see reasons why one might not. If a group of people come together under the banner of sport or under any other banner and if at the same time some of its members smoke and some do not, it takes some courage to come out with a uniform policy on that. However it is a fundamental issue and one which would get the witnesses considerable publicity - good or bad. I regard this as a fundamental issue. I am not talking about whether people smoke, but a policy concerning not smoking in order to ensure people's health. Health and sport have already been closely linked together.

The report of the task force also points to a survey carried out on transition year students in schools. There are fundamental issues of perception here, more so among young males than young females. At lunchtime one sees many young people, particularly young males, coming out of school eating fast food and drinking Coke, etc. Such behaviour is fundamental to health. Is this attributable to the change in home lifestyles given that often both parents are away and there is no preparation of meals? While there is no disagreement here, in the public arena there is somewhat of a politically correct attitude that we should not delve into this, as this is the way we are. However, if we do not delve into it, ultimately we will not get down to the fundamentals. It is very important that people be challenged, even if we have to bear some flak in the process.

I have always regarded it as particularly sad that when people, particularly men, are victorious in sport, which by extension affects health, as mentioned in the task force report, they celebrate with alcohol. I was at a function where such a celebration took place. While I will not mention the sport, code or level, I had great admiration for the victorious team. I am not exaggerating in saying one of the players was out of his mind with drink before any speeches of congratulation were made. I felt very uneasy about this. This man had trained very hard and taken on the challenges. He had become a role model for his peer group and yet this was how the celebration took place. I presume by extension this also applies to women. The connection of alcohol and sport deserves consideration.

We are all aware of the examples of discrimination such as the Forty Foot bathing place at Christmas and the famous golf clubs. I take it that the witnesses are aware of still more discrimination. In considering equality even at an administrative level on the ground in a general sense, where is this discrimination experienced? It is clearly being experienced and this needs to be expanded on if not for us today in a subsequent part of the debate.

The witnesses have wisely made a recommendation for the Department of Health and Children, focusing specifically on osteoporosis, which is very prevalent. It is sad to think that if that condition is identified in the early stages it can be corrected. When it is not identified early, it can result in a very low quality of life for a considerable time. A body like that represented by the delegation, which is connected with women in sport, gives wonderful service to the country by highlighting these issues which might otherwise be lost. What relationship have the witnesses had with the health agencies to date and what kind of response have they been getting?

Deputy Wall

I welcome three such distinguished ladies to initiate the programme we are discussing. We need to look at what we see as the problem in women's sport on an individual basis. One of the problems in promoting sport in the future will be volunteerism. In the sport in which I am involved there are no fresh faces in the clubs in my county. The same is obviously true of other sports also.

In all ladies' sport there is a problem in getting active sponsors. If we are to get the result we want, which is a gender balance or as close to it as possible, we must start at the basics in primary schools. We need to bring the parents along. When a son or daughter plays a game, the parent will be a spectator. While some parents may use the sport as a babysitting service, which is acceptable, many people have gone on to become great mentors and officials in sports as a result of their children's interest.

We must get involved at the primary school level. The main sports of football, hurling, camogie, rugby and soccer are catered for at that level. The other sports are involved to a lesser extent. This means we are not giving children many options as they are confined to the mainline sports, which is sad. Obviously, there are other sports like lacrosse as one of the speakers mentioned. The net is not sufficiently wide to create the interest for some children. The volunteerism must be linked with the early assessment of interest in sport at school if we are ultimately to get gender balance.

It is imperative that the mainline sports use every opportunity possible to cater for less popular sports in their facilities. We know that the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism is carrying out a survey of facilities throughout the country and I am sure this will reflect the lack of facilities we have been discussing. It is crazy that a basketball arena was not completed even though it would not have cost the Department anything. For a Department to do this to any association is not reflective of what we are talking about in developing sport.

Previous speakers mentioned the media. We could all name the four or five female athletes who get the main attention. We often see photographs and reports of women who compete internationally, but we never seem to focus on women at national level. I support Deputy Deenihan's call for the sports editors of the newspapers to be invited to appear before this committee.

What do the witnesses think about volunteerism and linking this to school facilities at an early age? What do they feel we can do about the media content that is vital to developing sport? We have seen many other problems created due to lack of sports and entertainment outlets for young people. Boredom is creating all the problems of drink, drugs, vandalism, etc., simply because there are no facilities to give young people a frame of mind that they can do something positive rather than negative.

I thank the witnesses who will hear more of this as Deputy Deenihan progresses the report.

Deputy English

I have a few comments which might not coincide with the views today of women in sport. Deputy Deenihan mentioned the psychological barrier towards the participation of women in sport. From the evidence of the witnesses, and based on the seminar that Deputy Deenihan mentioned, while I understand that such a barrier exists, when growing up I was never conscious of it. When I played under age football we always had girls on the team and the girls were better players, particularly those who were forwards. We had two great girls who always scored, were treated with the height of respect by the lads and were nearly the heroes.

Deputy Deenihan

Meath footballers areusually regarded as old women.

Deputy English

This has more to do with under age sport than to do with women in sport. My town has a snooker club with some great female players who are encouraged. Right across the board there are great opportunities. In our athletics club, one of our most successful athletes in shot putting was Nicola Coffey who went on to perform at national level. She is from a remote little parish, Bohermeen, in County Meath and because she had the will to succeed, she was able to advance. I do not doubt that there are barriers. I am simply saying that, on the basis of my experience within my own age group and from discussions with the lads at weekends, I have never found any ill-feeling towards women in sport. On the contrary, their participation has been very much encouraged. Perhaps that is more apparent in my area than elsewhere - I do not know if that is the case.

Possibly the appearance of there being barriers is simply due to the fact that women grow up faster than men and think differently. If I may explain - I am speaking somewhat against my own gender in this regard - I have had some interesting conversations in recent weeks on people's attitudes to sport, job opportunities and so on. I spoke to several people, male and female, within the 25 to 30 age range. At 25 or 26, many of the girls to whom I spoke had worked out how many children they wanted and were planning their lives over the following years in terms of settling down, getting their house organised and so on. On the other hand, the lads to whom I spoke were thinking more in terms of winning next year's football championship. While they also had ambitions to start a family and so on they were not thinking as far ahead and at such an early stage as the girls.

Chairman

Who will look after them?

Deputy English

I had better be careful of what I say in this regard. My point is that the drive was different in each case. In my experience, when people want to achieve something

Ms Menzies

Is the Deputy saying the young men in his survey had not yet grown up?

Deputy English

No, I am saying their priorities are different at certain stages and that has a knock-on effect. As for my growing up, I am still only 5ft. 7ins. Unless we take account of the different priorities of young men and women, we could easily set off on the wrong track. In my view, political action should reflect the real situation on the ground. I have never had any complaints from women to the effect that they could not gain access to sporting facilities or were prevented from doing something they wished to do. If there is to be an effective campaign on the issue of women in sport, that needs to be supported in terms of making an impression on the ground. If action is demanded in that way, the situation may improve.

I hope I am making my position clear in a constructive manner. Whatever debates we have on this issue must be matched by real demand on the ground. That is my view of the situation. The point has often been made to me that very few women become involved in the committee work of GAA or soccer clubs. That is probably due to the fact that women will not sit listening to the type of rubbish that goes on at such meetings. As a young person, I also find that almost intolerable at times, but men tend to put up with it or simply switch off until the meeting ends. Women, on the other hand, tend to prefer to cut out the nonsense, get to the point and make decisions. Accordingly, they generally avoid club meetings of the type I have described, having better uses for their time.

The same approach applies to political meetings - women are not prepared to spend as much time listening to nonsense as men will do. Without wishing to give offence or cause a riot, I believe the issue we are debating requires deeper consideration and, perhaps, an approach based on providing better information to women as to how they can become more involved in sport. It has to be a two-way process, with supply responding to demand. I will certainly give my full support but I need to hear a stronger demand at ground level.

I am concerned that the wrong approach is being adopted; we need to work on the demand side.

Senator McHugh

I agree with Deputy English. He has described the situation very well.

Chairman

Yes, he touched on the crux of the issue.

Senator McHugh

I welcome the delegation and apologise for my late arrival. I agree with all of the non-controversial statements made by Deputy English. Politicians like telling stories about the situation in their own back yard. I will give a brief outline of the situation in my home parish on sports and the gender breakdown. Following on from Deputy English's comments, I have looked at a variety of male-dominated clubs, including clay pigeon shooting, boxing, cycling, badminton, rugby and GAA clubs. I acknowledge that GAA and soccer clubs run summer camps for male and female participants. However, in terms of organisational structure, the committees are male-dominated and there is a male ethos at local level. The volunteer input to which Deputy Wall referred - although there are pressures which are constantly eroding it - is coming from males who, in some cases, are involved with a view to their sons' chances of involvement.

On the other hand, in my area, we also have a great mix of clubs, including athletics, swimming, golf, boating and horse riding activities, in which there is a good gender balance. Within their structures, there is a mix of male and female parents providing a voluntary input. Recognising that volunteerism is under pressure in anyevent, perhaps the key to dealing with male-dominated structures is for women to show leadership at an adult level. We should consider ways of facilitating that with a view to greater involvement by women in GAA, soccer, cycling, badminton and rugby clubs. With that in place, an awareness would be created at both adult and juvenilelevels, from which younger participants would be encouraged to become involved.

Lack of awareness is a major issue. A debate such as this is a healthy approach to creating awareness and recognising certain shortcomings. There has been a dramatic change already. Our Chairman, Deputy Keaveney, referred to the Donegal ladies' all-Ireland team. As a teacher in a convent school in Letterkenny, I was involved in coaching Gaelic games. While a few pupils were really interested, it was very difficult to encourage most of them to take an interest. However, there has been a sea change and that is ongoing. It is basically a matter of creating awareness through events such as the victory of last summer and the attendant media coverage. We need to look at the voluntary leadership aspect at local level, in terms of encouraging more female leaders to become involved in sporting activities.

Deputy O’Shea

I welcome our distinguished panel of guests. I wish to make some brief comments. First, I apologise for my late arrival, which was unavoidable. Ms Massey referred to the fact that involvement in sport helps to prevent breast and reproductive cancers. Obviously, that is a very positive factor. I understand that Senator Ó Murchú referred earlier to osteoporosis which, in another incarnation, I came across as part of my work. One of the aspects I particularly recall is that this is predominantly a female complaint, in terms of a ratio of about 20:1 among those who develop the condition. It appears to be the case, almost invariably, that women involved in sport do not develop osteoporosis. That is a very positive starting point. In the local sports partnerships initiative by the Irish Sports Council, one of the objectives is to increase participation by women in sport. What progress has there been towards achieving that objective? Can our guests indicate any positive developments?

On sponsorship, there are obviously some difficulties. However, in the context of women's football, to the best of my recollection, there was an attendance of about 200 at the first all-Ireland final in 1985, whereas the attendance at this year's final was in the region of 30,000. That shows that if the product is right, in terms of attendance and television coverage, the potential for advertising increases substantially.

In overall terms, there has never been a more important time to have men and women involved in sport. A particularly relevant issue, to which Senator Ó Murchú referred, is the current lifestyle of some of our younger people, in terms of certain damaging activities in which they engage. Participation in organised sport has never been more important than now.

I attended a major sporting event two years ago at a famous stadium as part of a mixed group of about eight people. I had not previously realised that the scarcity of toilet facilities for women was a real issue at that venue. I assume that is now being addressed but clearly there are some venues which could benefit from attention in that regard.

Deputy Glennon

I apologise for being late due to another meeting which overran its time. I join my colleagues in welcoming our guests. I particularly remember Ms Maeve Kyle from a time, many summers ago - I will not be more specific - when I was a regular visitor to Santry Stadium. She certainly set an outstanding headline at a time when women in Irish sport were a very rare breed.

Unfortunately, I missed most of today's discussion on the recent experiences of my two younger colleagues on this committee. It struck me that the sports to which Senator McHugh referred as having a good gender balance, for want of a better phrase, were mainly sports which, I believe, subject to correction, tend to be equipped privately, such as golf, swimming, horse riding and sailing. I would be interested in hearing the views of our guests in that regard. In my area, north County Dublin, there has been not merely an increase but an actual explosion of participation in field sports by young girls in particular. That is the case in football, both soccer and Gaelic, as well as camogie, in an area where there was no tradition of that kind.

There has also been a corresponding explosion in participation by young boys in hurling, for which there had been a similar lack of tradition in the area. This came about as a result of the efforts of a few dedicated adults in the local GAA club, who took on the challenge of promoting hurling in an area where it had never been played and approached it, not in terms of "why include the girls?" but rather on the basis of "why not include them?". The entire approach was on the basis of absolute equality. The thriving GAA club in question has now reached a stage where the male to female ratio on the committee is almost 50-50 and everything is done on a basis of total equality.

All of us are aware of the need for vastly increased participation by girls and young women in sport. I would welcome the views of our guests as to whether that should be participant-driven or committee or administration-driven. I will conclude with a brief anecdote. At a recent function which I attended, my table included a premiership footballer and two all-Ireland winning GAA players - a footballer and a hurler. All of us agreed that the skills now prevalent in women's GAA make it far more attractive to watch than the men's branch of the sport. I realise that men's GAA has deteriorated greatly since Deputy Deenihan graced the pitches.

Deputy English

His performance was not necessarily always graceful.

Deputy Glennon

I am glad that comment came from one of his own party colleagues. If I may complete my anecdote, the conclusion of the group in question, not in any patronising manner whatsoever, was that the skills now in evidence in women's Gaelic football are something worth treasuring. The product is there; it is a matter of tapping into the market. I look forward to the response to my question as to whether that development should be participant-driven or administration-driven.

Chairman

I am glad that so many of my colleagues have discovered that the female branch of Gaelic sport is worthwhile. As a camogie player in the mid-1980s, when we won three county championship titles, I was named "man of the match" when we played against the boys' hurling team. We were difficult to deal with even then.

The current report will complement an earlier report which we produced on music and the arts as a basic building block. The interaction between music and education was a big issue in that context and the same principle applies as between sport and education. The concept with regard to music was not the creation of a great number of young musical virtuosos. Similarly, in the case of sport, I do not believe the objective is to create many elite athletes. If that comes about as a by-product, that is excellent, but we are more concerned with the holistic development of the person. In that context, having regard to the fact that 2004 is the year of education in sport, how do our guests envisage that helping us, whether in terms of funding, policy development or whatever?

Unfortunately, we have exceeded our time allocation of five minutes per committee member. However, in replying to the many questions raised, some inter-related topics can be taken together. I invite Ms Kyle to begin.

Ms Kyle

I will speak on one or two topics. I am glad there is a person present who is old enough to remember my running days. I fully agree we must inspire girls to want to participate in sport. It is not a matter of being excluded - I do not believe there were ever as many barriers as some might suggest. There are historical factors. As I found, to my cost, mums-in-law can play a big part. There is a need to make sure that sport is cool for girls, but that has to start early. If one does not start almost at the toddler stage, one simply does not start. Of course, the fact that girls are much more advanced than boys has been well known for many years past.

Deputy English

I had no problem in admitting that fact.

Ms Kyle

It is well established that girls develop, physically and physiologically, faster than boys. Unless we establish that sport is a totally acceptable part of girls' lives, we will not win the battle. The present barriers are being erected by society. Parents, especially mothers, have not got as much free time as previously. We now have the cheapest but most ghastly babysitter and child-minding electronic gadgets, namely, mobile telephones, television sets and computers, which are handy, readily available and have the advantage that kids are visible. How often does one see kids playing street games nowadays? I realise, of course that our streets are no longer safe.

I recently heard of an interesting survey in Canada, where street games are still played in cul-de-sacs in built-up areas. That is an area which could be considered for development, with practically no investment in facilities. The most popular playground is where kids can do their own thing, deciding what games they will play. Rather than playing mini-versions of adult games, with millions of rules, they make up their own rules. That is play, which we have almost destroyed. It could almost be said that we have taken childhood away in the process. It is very difficult to build a sports programme if the foundations are not there to support it. Perhaps that is the view of an old granny, but I feel very strongly about this.

With regard to smoking, an athlete simply does not smoke - that is beyond dispute. Some sports actually ban smoking, including my own sport, athletics. Diet and good coaches and teachers are also vital requirements for getting to the top. An affluent society has far more problems than one in which the pennies had to be counted and in which one's entertainment was mainly through sport.

On the question of whether an administration-driven or participant-driven approach is best, my club has what might be seen as a rather weird approach whereby only competing athletes have a vote. We have no committee meetings. We have five managers and a lap-top computer and the club runs like a dream. The athletes came up with the vision that they wished their club to be a safe place in which to practice their sport, with coaching available to such a level of improvement as they wished to reach. Adults, as coaches, often push and drive, but kids do not necessarily see things that way. I never worry about the cream - it will always come to the top. Those kids who are driven by talent will always make the grade.

Somebody mentioned the Sunday Times awards for women. That is a brilliant initiative which deserves support. I believe the Sunday Times has an Irish edition.

Ms Menzies

While I would love to have aseries of individual conversations, following which everybody present would be fired up with enthusiasm for changing the world with regard to women in sport, I will confine my response to a few key issues. I will come back to the Chairman's point about the year of sport. An important point was mentioned at the start of the meeting with regard to role models and mother-and-toddler groups. In our research for the task force, we came across a brochure, entitled "Kiwi talk", which was given to every mother in New Zealand. It is no wonder the All Blacks are so good, their mothers have been teaching them since they arrived in the world. Seriously, this leaflet which all mothers received in NewZealand hospitals, was concerned with mother and child activity - that was their starting point. That is a route worth recommending at the pre-primary school stage with regard to bodily awareness. There is a little of that in some areas of society but it is only those who are relatively privileged who have any consciousness of it at present. That approach makes a great deal of sense.

Deputy Deenihan referred to PE in schools. A whole sea change is needed in that area. Primary teachers are expected to be good at everything, including music, but they are not always good at sport. It is a huge imposition to expect them to be the ones to initiate children into sport. It behoves the Department to come up with a model - I believe there is a requirement in the Department's regulations for a certain level of activity to take place, though we know, anecdotally, that it does not happen - whereby, if the teachers cannot do it, there should be some facility for a teacher to cover a number of schools to some extent.

It is possible to find imaginative ways around the problem and it is time pressure was put on the Department in that regard. Teachers at primary level need substantial confidence-building, on an inservice basis, to help them realise that they are not expected to produce champions, but to focus on the play element. They also need reassurance on insurance issues, which are a concern with regard to any activity programme. Some action is needed in that area.

Senator Ó Murchú referred to smoking and mentioned the task force. As most of us came from a sporting background, our position, long before the current Minister for Health and Children raised the issue, was that smoking was just not on for athletes. Very few athletes smoke, although there are some who smoke and drink, but it is generally not done. Sports clubs were probably first to apply unofficial bans - their whole ethos would have been against it. Clearly, we have no difficulty in endorsing a ban on smoking which, in my view, is simply incompatible with physical recreational sport.

I also agree with the comments made with regard to lifestyles, changing perceptions and nutrition. A link with the health agencies would be a very good development, as would awareness campaigns. When the task force was about to launch its invitation for submissions, a certain alcohol company offered to sponsor a reception. In the event, we did not have a reception, having declined that offer. That may have cost us in terms of missing out on publicity, but at least we adhered to our beliefs.

There was also a reference to discrimination. My response may relate to the comments of young Deputy English - I do not mean that in a pejorative sense.

Deputy English

I will grow up some day.

Ms Menzies

The problem is - I keep returning to the paradise model or framework - that we do not have women at decision-making levels of sport in Ireland. How many women are on the Irish Sports Council? I was privileged to be on it at one stage and we were certainly in a minority. A critical mass - that is the term I was looking for earlier - counts for something. In a number of such situations in which I have been involved, I had a feeling of being an odd voice and that could become rather wearisome at times, for example, in terms of having to remind people of the need for childcare facilities. I am not suggesting that men do not refer to such matters - I believe there is now a much greater awareness in that regard.

However, the fact is that women are not involved at decision-making levels in sport in Ireland and, therefore, they are not highlighting the needs which may, as I and the task force believe, be different to those of boys and young men. One of the things which struck me particularly forcefully towards the end of our task force deliberations was that much of our findings with regard to girls and young women was equally applicable to a significant number of boys and young men who are not particularly attracted to what one might describe as the heavy, aggressively competitive, elite model of sport.

On the question of facilities, it is imperative that any facilities built from here on should take on board the needs of women and children. As my colleagues have pointed out, the inability of women to access facilities is often due to the lack of provision for one's child, at whatever time of day or night. That issue must be addressed.

Deputy Wall referred to the vitally important matter of the involvement of parents. Perhaps everybody has realised how important it is. If one goes to a sporting event on a Saturday morning or afternoon, one will find many fathers at GAA, rugby or soccer matches. One will not find as many of them at hockey or camogie matches. I do not suggest that one will not find any fathers at such matches, but my perception is that some of them jump out of bed very early on a Saturday morning to make a holy show of themselves on the sidelines of GAA, rugby or soccer matches. I have seen people asking for fathers to be removed. Deputy Glennon is nodding because he and I have been at similar matches. One does not find many fathers at certain games. It is hugely important, if we are to increase the participation of girls in sport, that fathers and mothers become involved. This helps sport to become part of the lifestyle of the family.

It is terribly important that we cater for diversity. One of the findings of the task force was that girls and women are much more interested in trying different kinds of sport. Many girls want to play rugby and soccer. As Ms Kyle said, that is fine because they will find their way into it. I hope that diversity, which is a big issue, will be catered for in the recommendations. It helps to maximise the participation of women in sport.

I am sure Deputy English will laugh when I say that girls and women have a preference for covered facilities. I know that Deputy Glennon spoke about the great upsurge in field activities, which is wonderful, but there is a general preference among women for indoor facilities. This is partly linked to safety. This was expressed by women and men at a public meeting, which took place in the middle of nowhere, in a large GAA hall in Moygownagh in County Mayo. I do not suggest that this matter is not being taken care of, but women are concerned about getting to a facility and feeling safe, comfortable and not threatened when they are there. This may not be a big issue, but it needs to be considered when facilities are being provided.

May I give a small plug to my sport of squash? We have spoken about media coverage. A young woman from Northern Ireland, Madeline Perry, is ranked 20th in the world and has had some terrific results. I am sure that Ms Kyle knows her. A male squash player, Derek Ryan, used to be ranked seventh in the world. Squash is a minority sport which receives very little media coverage. The sporting bodies are sometimes to blame because they should know how to attract media attention. It is interesting that we hardly know that our stars in other sports exist.

I would like to make a suggestion which was not mentioned by the task force. I have often wondered why tax breaks are not given to companies that are involved in sponsorship. Targeted tax breaks could be considered for companies that sponsor women.

I have tried to respond to everybody who spoke. Deputy English spoke about demand. I have a problem with what he seems to be talking about.

Deputy English

I spoke of what I am hearing on the ground. It is not my own belief.

Ms Menzies

The Deputy is absolutely right. He belongs to a different generation. The Chairman responded to the Deputy's comments about demand-led politics. I have always strongly believed that politics is about leadership. The Chairman was right to say that if women and girls do not know what they are missing, they are hardly in a position to wage campaigns on the streets. Despite the fact that many women and girls are involved in sport, a large sector of the population has been deprived of the enjoyment and the physical and mental benefits of taking part in recreation. Politics and Government policy should involve leadership and raising awareness.

I have been asked how we can tap into the fact that next year has been designated as the European year of education through sport. The development of an awareness of the benefits of sport for everybody, particularly for women, is a huge aspect of this matter. I would love to see some activities being organised to encourage families to become involved in sport. Parents and children should be encouraged to participate together. There should be taster days for different kinds of sport, so that people can try out the various codes. There could be developments in this regard.

Deputy Glennon was absolutely right when he spoke of the dedicated efforts of a few adults. This country's resources are not great but I would like to see some of them targeted at personnel. I have seen in my own sport the benefits that have accrued from becoming involved with a group of kids. An enormous number of young kids in Carlow play squash because the father of one of them, who dabbled in the sport but was not brilliant, became involved in primary coaching and developed it from there. Our emphasis is sometimes wrong. While facilities are needed, we also need people with dynamism and the enthusiasm to work with young people. Nothing affects young people more than enthusiasm. I hope I have covered everything.

Chairman

I am conscious that there could be a division in the House at 4.30 p.m. I want everybody to have a chance to respond.

Ms Massey

I will not address all the points that have been made so far. I will give my views about some of the points that were made and some of the questions that were asked. Deputy Deenihan asked what should be emphasised in the report. A number of fundamental items should be included in it. He also asked about the provision of basic physical education in schools, a matter which was also mentioned by other members of the committee. This is a fundamental matter. I would like to raise awareness at this forum of the Búntas programme, which is rolled out by the Irish Sports Council through the three main sports. It is a mixed sports bag. This means that multi-coloured balls, bats and other pieces of equipment of various textures are available in a very big bag, which is brought into a primary school by a coach or facilitator trained by the Irish Sports Council. The teacher will also be involved in the process of giving the kids a taste of what is in the bag. This method is followed through by the three main sports, which have a version of the Búntas bag dedicated to their sport. The kids are getting some choice and hearing about the sports that exist and which they may like to try.

Deputy Wall mentioned the issue of volunteerism, in which I am very interested. I was heavily involved in the Comhairle programme, which involved education for administrators and was organised through the GAA. Volunteers were recruited and trained. I do not think it is harder to recruit volunteers now than it was ten years ago and I do not think it will be harder in ten years' time.

Ms Mary Davis showed us how it can be done when she helped to run the Special Olympics. There are some fundamental flaws in the methods of recruiting volunteers, from club level to the regional and national structures. The fact that we do not ask for volunteers is something of a hurdle. If we ask for volunteers, we do not outline the nature of the task and the length of time we are asking a person to commit to in a voluntary capacity. We do not let volunteers know that help is available for them if they need back-up. In other words, it is okay to make a mistake. We do not say, "thank you". Ms Mary Davis did all of that when she recruited 30,000 volunteers. I appreciate that the event in question was of limited duration, but I would be more than delighted if I could get 30,000 adults to concentrate on basketball for the same period. We were talking about more than 12 months if one includes training, etc. It can be done. Sports need more of that type of education. I know that the Irish Sports Council is examining that issue in conjunction with Volunteering Ireland.

I thank the delegation very sincerely. This has been a very informative meeting, not only for the rapporteur's study, but also for our own interaction. It has been good. If Deputy Deenihan thinks of something that he did not think of today, he will have access to the information provided by the delegation. We look forward to compiling and launching our report as soon as possible. We are trying to help the members of the delegation in their attempts to lead in their own fields. We would like to help in whatever way we can. I hope the young children coming through will gain from the work of the committee and its partners. I thank the delegation once more.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.40 p.m.sine die.

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht - Wednesday, 12 Nov 2003

Role of Women in Sport: Presentation.

Ms Maeve Kyle

Ms Gina Menzies

Ms Debbie Massey

Ms Menzies

Ms Menzies

Ms Kyle

Ms Kyle

Ms Menzies

Ms Menzies

Ms Menzies

Ms Massey

Ms Massey

Ms Massey

Ms Massey

Ms Massey

Ms Massey

Ms Kyle

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Nov 2003