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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 Nov 2005

National Concert Hall: Presentation.

I welcome representatives of the National Concert Hall, its supporters and users. They include Ms Judith Woodworth, director; Dr. Dermot Egan, chairman; Mr. Finghin Collins, board member and classical pianist; and the traditional Irish musician, Mr. Paddy Moloney, whom we met wearing a different hat on another occasion. We are here to discuss future plans for the venue. While members of the joint committee enjoy privilege, this does not extend to those who appear before the committee. I am sure, however, the issue of privilege will not cause great concern for any member of the delegation.

Dr. Dermot Egan

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for giving us the opportunity to appear before them. This is the first time for every member of the delegation to attend such a meeting, which makes it a special experience for us. The Chairman has introduced my colleagues. Ms Judith Woodworth, the director, will give an overview of what happens at the National Concert Hall — she will refer in particular to what has happened during the past year — while I will discuss strategic developments, our vision and aspirations.

Ms Judith Woodworth

I am pleased to state this will be another record year for the National Concert Hall. It will have been the busiest since we opened almost 25 years ago and has seen us host 400 events. By the end of October our attendances will be at 77% capacity, up approximately 6% on the same period last year. If this continues to year end — there is no reason it should not — we should achieve a figure of 83% for the whole year, which is very high, given the number of events during the year. These attendance levels mean we are enjoying a very strong financial year, with business up over 7%. Some of our highlight events included the recent concerts involving Mr. Paddy Moloney and the Chieftains, the visits of Amsterdam's Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra and recitals by brilliant young virtuoso performers such as the Siberian violinist Maxim Vengerov and the Chinese pianist Lang Lang. We also had concerts by the Vienna Boys' Choir and Brian Kennedy. These events strengthen the National Concert Hall's reputation as Ireland's premier performing arts venue, as well as for the delivery of a top quality, diverse music programme. Strong support was also maintained for our resident orchestra, the National Symphony Orchestra.

An important part of our work is to nurture Irish musicians and composers. We did that this year through our annual Beo Celtic Music Festival which is now enjoying an international reputation; our contemporary music festival, Composers' Choice; the summer lunchtime series show-casing a wide variety of Irish musicians and styles, and the Orchestra of St. Cecilia series with its conductor and pianist, Barry Douglas.

One of the challenges we face with this level of activity is the size and functionality of the National Concert Hall, an issue with which our chairman will deal in some detail. One of the most difficult issues for us is that the main auditorium is simply not large enough for many performances. This results in the National Concert Hall turning away up to 40% of all inquiries at the box office. No organisation likes to be turning away that level of business and it is very frustrating for us. This is due to the number of sold out houses and the lack of availability of tickets for those who telephone the box office. We have noticed an increasing demand and interest in the National Concert Hall's activities, nationally and particularly among tour operators and overseas visitors. This national and international interest can be channelled to make a redeveloped venue a great success.

Early next year we will be announcing our programme for the National Concert Hall's 25th anniversary which we hope will be a very special year. We hope to receive an increase in our annual grant for 2006 towards the funding of this programme and the money will be well spent. The National Concert Hall has the lowest level of subsidy of any of the national cultural institutions because our overall strong and diverse programming ensures consistently high audiences. We very much hope the plans for the redevelopment will take shape in 2006, which will mean that next year will be an extra special anniversary year in the history of the National Concert Hall. I know how supportive the Chairman and committee members are of the redevelopment plans, for which I thank them. I hope we will see all of them often during our 25th anniversary year.

Dr. Egan

I will talk about the redevelopment and the strategic issues facing the National Concert Hall. As Ms Woodward said, next year marks its 25th anniversary, a big event in our history. When set up in the early 1980s, the National Concert Hall was a terrific idea and an example of good decision-making. However, a lot of time has passed and that early vision must be brought into the 21st century because 25 years in any business or organisation is a very long time. The reality is that we are now out of step with what is happening elsewhere in Europe, significantly so. If one looks at places such as Birmingham, Glasgow, Manchester, Seville, Budapest and so on, cities comparable to Dublin, and others that are even smaller, they have developed larger halls which are necessary for the larger events that are now common and to accommodate the growing interest in music in Europe and the wider world.

We try to compare ourselves, in terms of our management, capability and, in particular, business management, because while the National Concert Hall is an artistic centre, it must be effectively managed from a business perspective. When we do so, we find that it is considerably smaller and out of kilter with the European model for such facilities. When one looks at Manchester, Glasgow, Cardiff, London and Birmingham, one finds that the National Concert Hall is the smallest, oldest and most restricted, even though it only dates back to 1981. It has the highest percentage seat occupancy compared to other venues. Compared with the Bridgewater Hall in Manchester, the halls in Glasgow, Birmingham and so forth, it is the second busiest based on the number of events; second smallest in terms of grant aid and the number of seats available and occupied; and the smallest with only 60.5% of the capacity of the next largest hall and only 49% of the capacity of the largest. It is much smaller than the other venues, even though some of the other cities are smaller than Dublin and provincial, rather than capital, cities. Despite this, we provide a very decent experience for those who come to the National Concert Hall. However, we cannot hide the fact that we are lagging behind in the development of a concert hall with 1,800 or more seats comparable to those in most other European cities.

The National Concert Hall has a maximum capacity of 1,200 but this is frequently reduced by the requirements of particular events. For example, the back stage area is often taken up when we are staging operas. For some events the National Concert Hall is too big and for others, too small. Other spaces cannot be used if the main auditorium is in use due to sound leaking from one hall to another. While we try to put the best face forward, in reality what we have is one big hall with 1,200 seats, as well as the John Field Room which is technically another hall but is actually a lobby, in which we hold events. We also have a room upstairs — the board room — which we use for events. We are making optimum use of the space available but in comparison with other centres, we are in a totally different league.

The original plan for the National Concert Hall from the 1960s envisaged a John F. Kennedy memorial hall with two auditoria. For various reasons, that idea was pared back. There is a danger that we will be left behind, in perception terms, with audiences at home, as well as performers and promoters abroad. Mr. Finghin Collins and Mr. Moloney will elaborate on this point. They are performers who have travelled the world and are familiar with this issue.

While it is important to have regional centres, as members know from their constituencies, a strong national facility is imperative as a driving force for Ireland internationally and the country nationally and to spur on regional centres. We know from experience when people come from various parts of the country to perform — choirs, orchestras and so forth — they are highly motivated by the experience. It is a wonderfully motivating cultural experience for them and we would love to be able to provide that opportunity more often but because of the facilities available, we cannot meet demand. The acknowledgement of the need to redevelop the National Concert Hall featured in the programme for Government 2002 and the national tourism strategy. Both documents recognised the opportunity to develop the National Concert Hall. The Office of Public Works is of the view that it is possible to have a state-of-the-art facility on the existing site and has developed concepts in this regard.

A new word, "footprint", has come into my vocabulary. Hopkins Architects made a preliminary survey of the site's footprint and was excited by its city location, which presents opportunities unavailable to many other halls. Mr. Moloney can speak further on the matter because he has travelled throughout the world and has many experiences to share.

We could open the magnificent Iveagh Gardens to the rear of the National Concert Hall. Old pictures show that the gardens which are one of the unused treasures of Dublin were part of the National Concert Hall's original concept. A large jail like wall separates the two but exciting possibilities would emerge if our building could be integrated with the gardens. It would allow the National Concert Hall to become state-of-the-art compared to venues in other countries. The possibilities for the site are fantastic and the board is strongly committed to the development plans. The potential for the National Concert Hall to become a more substantial facility need not significantly alter the balance of public and commercial funding. I would be glad to discuss the issue further.

Our opportunity arises because UCD plans to move its medicine and engineering faculties from the site to buildings in Belfield in 2006 and 2007 and expects to have them moved largely by the end of next year. It owns the site, of which we lease part for the National Concert Hall but the university is prepared to sell the site to the State for the purpose of redeveloping the venue. It is difficult to believe the National Concert Hall is like a Chinese box in the middle of a university building. There are fears that, if we miss this opportunity, we will lose it for a lifetime if the site is redeveloped in any other way.

Our vision for the redevelopment, once UCD has moved, is a larger auditorium with 1,800 to 2,000 seats, the refurbishment of the existing hall which would contain 900 seats and a smaller hall with 400 seats to offer flexibility. Such a model can be seen in other cities. The smaller hall would be available for intimate events such as jazz and chamber music concerts. Our analysis indicates that it would be financially viable. Based on our past experience, I am confident that we could make this a success.

Members may ask the extent of general support for this concept. A survey conducted by Lansdowne Research revealed that the public would support a redeveloped venue to stage a wider range of events. A strong business case can, therefore, be made. While the National Concert Hall draws most of its business from around Dublin and the rest of Leinster, smaller numbers from other provinces also attend performances and the facility is used by schools from throughout the country.

We want to use the centre to encourage the development of new and innovative forms of Irish music. A larger venue and a variety of halls would provide opportunities for a more diverse range of musical programmes. Due to the demographic and cultural changes caused by increased immigration, we are considering a completely different venue where the music performed would represent all the people now part of our country. It is not possible to do this at present. We also want to significantly enlarge our education outreach programme. The National Concert Hall currently puts on events throughout the country, as far away as Inishbofin and County Kerry, but could do much more with a bigger facility.

As an ex-banker, I want to discuss the finances of the National Concert Hall and how a business case can be made for it. We applied the model used by the British Arts Council to measure cultural institutions such as theatres and concert halls and had the results scrutinised by a firm of accountants. The results revealed that, while the National Concert Hall's activities contributed approximately €25 million to the local economy, the contribution could be doubled. A strong business case may be made for this project which represents an unprecedented opportunity to develop a state-of-the-art concert performance venue that could take its place in Europe.

We have had a positive experience in the management of the National Concert Hall. For the past ten years we have met our budgets and had occasional small surpluses. While we experienced losses of €20,000 out of a turnover of €3 million in two of those years, we have built up a reserve of €750,000. In terms of our management performance and track record, we are confident that we can manage the business and would welcome the support of the committee for this project.

Dr. Egan was being negative when he described the National Concert Hall as small and old but an estate agent might describe it as compact and bijou. Given its age, is it able to meet health and safety requirements or will this matter have to be addressed in a new development? Access is important in any building and old buildings, in particular, should be accessible by as many as possible.

With regard to the high percentage of seat occupancy, are people being turned away? Theatre Forum Ireland made the argument that, if it received a small increase in funding, it could generate further finance by staging more performances.

An estate agent would emphasise the importance of location. It is argued that a convention centre is on the way and that, given its present location, it would be impossible to redevelop the National Concert Hall to one of sufficient size and scale. Have discussions been held on the development of a multi-purpose venue which would comprise a convention centre and an arts facility? Should the National Concert Hall site be sold and a new venue developed in the vicinity of the convention centre or should the two be kept separate?

The 2012 Olympic Games will create more interest in Ireland as a destination for those attending the Games. Internationally, Ireland is known for its musicians, yet we do not seem to invest in infrastructure for them. Those who come here as tourists or to attend conventions should not be turned away at the doorstep of the National Concert Hall. What would this project cost the Exchequer?

I welcome the delegation from the National Concert Hall. When I organised three major concerts in the National Concert Hall I saw the limitations of the venue. Each concert was sold out and at the last one, a fund-raiser for Brendan Kennelly in February, there was a queue of approximately 400 people. The backstage area was also limited. I noticed these limitations at a national event and can imagine what it would be like for an international event with orchestras and other performers coming from all over the world. They would not be happy with the antiquated facilities and space backstage. The concert hall compares unfavourably with modern theatres around the world and it must be an embarrassment for the directors and administrators to have to explain to visiting performers that we are getting a new theatre in the future.

Despite the limitations of the facility, the delegates must be complimented on their achievements. While other national institutions have severe financial difficulties, the National Concert Hall has managed its finances well given its limited budget. The delegates may tell the committee what that budget is and what is required for next year's operating costs to expand programmes. The Abbey Theatre will receive a substantial increase next year and the National Concert Hall will expect a similar increase. During Question Time last week I asked about the purchase of the UCD engineering and medical buildings. The Minister said he hoped to put a proposal to the Government soon, that it would cost approximately €45 million and that UCD had offered the building to the State. That is good but how long will UCD wait for the State to make the offer? Might another buyer show interest in these valuable buildings? The price of €45 million is reasonable given the development potential the Chairman has outlined, especially in the context of the under-used space provided by the Iveagh Gardens.

What was the monetary value of the 40% of people the National Concert Hall had to turn away? It would be easy to give that figure. That is considerable revenue. The cost of a show remains the same whether the hall is full or half full. We asked the Abbey Theatre about the important and relevant areas of outreach and touring. Could the delegates refer to the National Concert Hall's outreach and education programme and touring plans for next year? I have other questions which I may ask later.

We have heard a compelling case. I buy into the concept but questions arise on the construction period and cost. As a former teacher I immediately think of how school children can benefit from a project like this, particularly children from disadvantaged areas who have little exposure to the arts. Can I assume the concert hall would be willing to work with the Department of Education and Science and other authorities to develop programmes to provide wide-ranging access for primary and secondary school children from all over the country to see the best national and international talent performing? That is vital. Touring is less practical and more expensive. Many children throughout the country get no exposure during their formative years to high-level live performances. The National Concert Hall management is doing an excellent job and needs this development to further the potential of the concert hall. I have no further queries apart from the questions of cost and timescale of construction already mentioned.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an toscaireacht. Molaimse iad de bharr an tsaothair atá déanta acu. Táimid an-mhórálach as an obair atá déanta acu. We are proud of the National Concert Hall's achievements over the past 25 years. The presentation was focused and the concert hall is coming from a base of success if it is projecting capacity of over 80%. Any State agency should feel comfortable with that. With the current vibrant atmosphere for the arts, particularly music and dance, the delegates are right to make comparisons with venues throughout the world. Ireland enjoys good status under many headings and it would be regrettable if the National Concert Hall were not among those. I like the concept of three halls. A larger hall is needed due to the concert hall's success and the attractiveness and potential for expansion in Ireland. However, a large hall is not required for the more innovative work and less famous, emerging performers. From personal experience I like the fact that the concert hall has always looked after emerging artists. That is vital and while I do not want to pre-empt Mr. Collins's contribution, he makes that very point. The National Concert Hall has looked after Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann very well and it has a number of reservations made for next year, which is how it should be. It is important to maintain contact with community development rather than concentrate only on the stars, not that I would take anything away from Mr. Moloney and I am delighted but not surprised he had such a good night in Limerick.

I will focus on a few specific issues. I take it that following the work done by the OPW the National Concert Hall is happy to remain on the existing site. I agree because location is particularly important. It would be a pity if the NCH was only able to achieve a part of its vision and if it is necessary for different agencies to interact, as in the case of Iveagh Gardens, that should happen. Whatever a development in the cultural field might cost, if it is not pursued fully people will be critical ten or 15 years later. The economy will not completely fall and I have seen many cases where people did not go the whole way and fulfil their vision.

I am aware of and welcome interaction with schools because many provincial schools visit Dublin and take in the usual places. They will not always be in Dublin overnight but it is possible to service them during the daytime. I always thought it strange that because of an elitist attitude the arts world was not interested in tourists. Art was for artists and it did not matter if nobody came to see it. That is changing and I am glad the delegates make that point. There is no reason a tour operator planning next year's itinerary should not include a visit to the National Concert Hall or another cultural institution. We must move with the times. Any cultural institution in Dublin, where there is such a large population, must focus on increasing attendances and the fact that the National Concert Hall achieves over 80% of capacity is a record second to none in its field. That will be taken on board when the decision is made on redevelopment. I support the project and underline it with a sense of urgency because things are achievable now that may not be achievable in a few years time, whether they be the acquisition of a site or of necessary funding. I have supported other institutions that have come before this committee but, because of its success in a revenue sense, the National Concert Hall is at the end of the queue for grant aid for national cultural institutions. It should now be rewarded in capital terms to develop as it wishes. By "rewarded" I mean on behalf of the nation the National Concert Hall serves.

I wish the delegates well and would like to see their concept implemented in totality.

I welcome the delegation. We should celebrate the past 25 years because we have come a long way. There should be an arts centre or entertainment venue in every medium-sized town. That is where people learn appreciation of the arts, music and dance. As somebody who has attended the National Concert Hall on numerous occasions I have seen how difficult it is to get tickets, especially for major performances. That is a mark of its achievement. I prefer to see it turning people away than being worried about empty seats. If the capacity is increased from 1,200 to 2,000 seats a further 800 people will be exposed to the arts on a regular basis. People go to Prague, Budapest and Vienna and take in an opera but do not know where the National Concert Hall is in Dublin. It is a market waiting to be tapped in the form of cultural tourism and school tours and the delegates are pushing an open door because everything is in place. I wish them well in the future. If they need our support it is here but it is a no-brainer.

As in business, economies of scale are necessary and a certain number of seats need to be filled to generate revenue to pay for major performances. The delegates might come before the Committee of Public Accounts to explain how they outlined their budget because they have spent their money wisely and run the concert hall very efficiently. That augurs well for their request for support for this project.

I am grateful for the lovely CD and look forward to listening to it on my way home in the car.

Dr. Egan

I thank members of the committee for their comments and support. Some of the matters raised are apposite to our situation. As two of my colleagues have not had the chance to share their thoughts and views I invite them to speak.

I am pleased by the members' comments and heartened by their reaction to our proposals. The committee seems persuaded we have done a good job and can now expand by the acquisition of a site. As one of the younger performers who has performed regularly in the hall over the past few years and will hopefully continue for the next few years, I am excited. This expansion will bring us into line with our rivals not only in the UK but across Europe and the world. It is important to get in line quickly. The lack of a second recital hall that can function simultaneously with our own puts a huge limitation on us. A French cellist who plays in a big orchestra is performing with me on Saturday. I brought him in to see the hall and the first thing he said was the hall was lovely but the stage too small for a big orchestra, so we need that larger space.

I will answer one or two of the many questions. I assure the committee we do a lot of work with schools, which Ms Woodworth might talk about. We hold many classroom concerts. Schoolchildren from all over the country regularly come to see orchestra performances and we have a children-driven concert, which is very educational. Our educational outreach programme is extensive and we have projects all over the country, as far as the Aran Islands, where schoolchildren work with musicians from Irish orchestras. When we have visiting orchestras two or three of their members go to schools in the country or into inner city Dublin to work with disadvantaged children on projects where they learn about rhythm and music, and might even compose a piece to perform in the John Field Room.

Education and outreach programmes would form a major component. An expanded complex with three independent halls would allow more work to be done. We could have a Music in the Classroom concert in one auditorium, with a symphony concert in the main auditorium. At present we must choose. An expanded complex would facilitate the holding of simultaneous events.

Dr. Egan

Before Mr. Moloney speaks, I should point out that Mr. Collins provides a great service in reducing the average age of the board of directors.

Much of what I had intended to say has been mentioned. My group has travelled the world for 43 years as members of the performing arts. Perhaps it is not rock and roll but I do not see the likes of Robert Plant turning down the opportunity to take part in a concert in the National Concert Hall.

The first public concert at the National Concert Hall featured my group, The Chieftains, and we returned to the venue ten days ago for a sold out concert. According to the committee, a run of concerts could have continued for two weeks. During the Dublin millennium celebrations in 1988 I recall playing and bringing international Celtic artists from Galicia, Brittany, Scotland and other Celtic countries to perform here. We had to perform for one week in a smaller theatre and it was not really a great venue. This is an issue which could be considered for the future.

On educational matters, for two years we have been musicians in residence at the World Music Centre in the University of Limerick where we give master classes. It was a source of great joy at the end of a concert there recently to have 45 students, most of whom were from Ireland but there were many from other countries also, playing with us. That centre offers great possibilities.

Opening up Iveagh Gardens would be splendid for the National Concert Hall. My group has played at a six or seven year old venue in Philadelphia — the Kimmel Center — and obtains much of its financial support from Irish companies. However, as it did not have a little garden to open up, it constructed one on the roof, to where one can go after a show. One can imagine what the Iveagh Gardens could offer.

In the past decade cities such as Barcelona and Madrid have built in their centre magnificent theatres with up to 2,400 seats for the performing arts, at which many groups perform. This is important. We are blessed with a site in the city centre. This provides the glamour and the excitement that is the National Concert Hall which is a beacon for young musicians and others, in the same way as Carnegie Hall where we will be performing for the 22nd time next March. The Notre Dame Orchestra which has an Irish connection appealed to play with us. It will be a great honour for it to play in Carnegie Hall. Similar importance could be attached to the National Concert Hall for the rest of Ireland. I support this great idea.

Dr. Egan

Does Mr. Moloney see redevelopment as offering potential to attract visitors under the heading of cultural tourism?

We put on a number of concerts in which we use an orchestra. Three months ago we played with the Dallas Symphony Orchestra for a period of week; it was an example of Irish music being played with an American orchestra, which was very excited about the idea of coming to play in Ireland, where many groups wish to play because of what has happened in the past ten or 15 years. To that end, having a great hall such as this would be terrific.

Other forms of music, about which which Senator Ó Murchú would also know, could be included. They might include Chinese music. My group has played in China several times. Chinese acrobats have been brought here. It would be good if one of China's national orchestras, one of which played with my group in the 1980s, were brought to Ireland to play a series of concerts over a period of one week. At a recent concert a Chinese erhu player gave us a taste of what we had experienced in the 1980s. One was able to imagine one of China's national orchestras, consisting of 200 folk instruments, performing. There would be much excitement in mixing in dance, as happens in many of the countries in which we play. It would be exciting to do this in a hall of the size we need, an issue to which I keep referring.

Dr. Egan

Ms Woodworth may wish to respond generally. I will answer any additional questions.

Ms Woodworth

A question was raised about the level of business being turned away. To put this in a financial context, the value of ticket sales for the year is in excess of €10 million. If we turn away 40% of business, we are losing approximately €4 million in potential business.

The joint committee has also commented on outreach and education programmes which have become central to our programming in recent years. We are conscious that it is important to reach out to all regions of the country and we have attempted to this within the financial restraints. Taking into account our Music in the Classroom concerts and other programmes we promote, about 50,000 or 60,000 young people come to the National Concert Hall each year. That is a conservative figure. An extension of facilities would allow us to do much more.

The linkages with our own community in Dublin are extremely important to us. Virtually every week of the year we pursue an ongoing programme with Temple Street Children's Hospital and a special needs school, St. Declan's. This is a low key programme which does not receive much publicity but it indicates our wish to be involved with the local community. We also have an ongoing programme with docklands and inner city schools. A few weeks ago approximately 100 children from such schools performed on the stage of the National Concert Hall a programme they had devised and composed. It was fantastic and it was wonderful to see their parents and families attending the show, many of whom had probably not visited the National Concert Hall before. Extended facilities would undoubtedly enable us to do much more.

Is it possible to expand on the approaches made to the Government and UCD?

Dr. Egan

We have had discussions with representatives of UCD on its intentions. They have made it clear that it wants to leave the site and have all its facilities centralised in Belfield. However, it wants to be recompensed. We understand it has had discussions with the Department of Education and Science as regards its intentions. That is all we know because it is a separate process. We understand, however, that a figure of approximately €45 million has been mentioned. It appears there is an understanding by all concerned that this is a reasonable figure. The management and board of the National Concert Hall do not know where they stand with the Government on the matter.

That is the figure the Government mentioned. It appears to be acceptable to it.

We have invited the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Science to attend to discuss arts and education issues. Perhaps this would be of some help.

What timeframe is envisaged for the making of a decision?

The matter is out of the hands of the National Concert Hall.

Dr. Egan

There is urgency on our side. The Deputy suggested UCD might make alternative plans. If that was to happen, we would be scared because if it made a commitment to rent out the property or enter into a commercial letting agreement, there would be a timeframe set. There is a unique opportunity to deal with the matter. We will be very concerned, unless a decision is made in the immediate future. The Deputy is correct that what he suggested would be a source of serious concern for us.

When the plans are drawn up, perhaps we can visit the National Concert Hall at dinner time to see exactly what is on offer as regards the wall or garden.

Some of us have done so, and there was no problem with it.

Dr. Egan

We would be absolutely delighted because there is nothing like walking the land to get a feel for it. If members visited the National Concert Hall, they would see the constraints imposed.

The Chairman raised the issue of location. Everyone confirms to us that the location is the best one possible. Mr. Maloney has very strong views on the matter and argues that being located in the city centre, rather than on the outskirts of the city, is an enormous plus factor. The Luas service makes the National Concert Hall accessible. A city centre venue does a lot in regenerating the whole environment, which is very important.

The argument has been won as far as members of the committee are concerned. As someone who spent a lot of time in Belfast, I know what the Waterfront, the Odyssey and the Ulster Hall have done for the city. It is not the case that we should have it because it has it. Our case speaks for itself. It is a few years since I watched the Donegal Youth Orchestra perform in the National Concert Hall but while it cost an absolute fortune and difficulties were encountered in getting there, the enthusiasm displayed and excitement engendered in performing there made it all worthwhile. If this happened two days ago on St. Cecelia's Day, it would have been very appropriate. I declare my interest in that regard.

I will draw the meeting to a close on the basis that we recognise a job well done on a worthwhile project. We all agree that we do not want to see a compromise because, ultimately, it would be a case of penny wise and pound foolish. The economic case has been made. The representatives have been successful with the economics to date and promise to be just as successful in the future. The committee will endorse fully the case made with the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism. We will also talk to the Department of Education and Science to see if we can expedite activities between UCD and the National Concert Hall.

I thank the representatives who are always well organised for coming and the documentation they have provided. I wish them well.

Dr. Egan

On behalf of members of the delegation, I thank the joint committee. It is very encouraging for us to come to a forum such as this where people are interested, knowledgeable and ask the relevant questions, which is reassuring. I do not want to walk away from the question raised regarding the total cost of the project. Deputy Deenihan said the first phase would cost €45 million. The estimated figure for the other halls is approximately €100 million but that would not come into play for approximately two years. What we need to do is gather momentum to get us there, in other words, a decision on the site, architects and others. We expect the question of capital would not arise until approximately 2008. There would not be one big payment; payments would be staged over a number of years, which should make the project manageable. We have come up with a five year forecast to double the number of seats and patrons. We have carefully examined the sums because we have a very good financial management process. We believe we can deliver.

It would be a great addition to cultural tourism facilities and the artistic world, not just in Ireland but also internationally. We wish the representatives well.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.10 a.m. sine die.

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