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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Feb 2006

Dáil na nÓg: Presentation.

It is my pleasant duty to welcome representatives of Coiste na dTeachtaí from Dáil na nÓg who are accompanied by the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children with special responsibility for Children, Deputy Brian Lenihan; Ms Ann O'Donnell, head of communications at the office of the Minister of State; and Ms Olivia McEvoy of the National Youth Council of Ireland. The Minister of State can stay for the entire meeting if he wishes.

I understand Dáil na nÓg has done excellent work on topics such as drug and alcohol abuse and facilities for young people, issues of vital importance. The delegation will be delighted to hear that this committee has produced a number of reports covering issues such as treatment for cocaine addiction, music for young people, women in sport and the role of youth clubs. In addition, we will produce reports this year on matters such as the case against cannabis, an issue which has been topical in the media recently, and the inclusion of alcohol in the national drugs strategy. Matters such as music therapy and community music will also be touched upon, among many other subjects.

We look forward to hearing what Dáil na nÓg has been involved in and what its representatives would like to be involved in. We are interested in their views as Coiste na dTeachtaí. I ask the Minister of State to introduce the representatives. I will then allow the delegates to make contributions, after which we will take questions cumulatively from members.

Tá triúir anseo inniu. We have Mr. Marc Ó Fathaigh, Mr. David Murphy and Ms Alison Curran. As the information note has been submitted to members of the committee, I will not recycle it verbally. I give the floor to the delegates.

Mr. Marc Ó Fathaigh

I am from Coiste na dTeachtaí.

Mr. David Murphy

I am also from Coiste na dTeachtaí and come from Cork.

Ms Alison Curran

I am also from Coiste na dTeachtaí.

Mr. Ó Fathaigh

On behalf of Coiste na dTeachtaí, I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to express the views of Dáil na nÓg on facilities for young people. Mr. Murphy will explain the role of Dáil na nÓg and Coiste na dTeachtaí.

Mr. Murphy

Dáil na nÓg is the national youth parliament of Ireland, at which the views of young people are represented at national level. Coiste na dTeachtaí has 22 members, with six in the steering committee. We are the elected representatives to follow up on what was agreed by delegates in Dáil na nÓg. The themes for Dáil na nÓg 2005 were alcohol and drug misuse — a theme for the past three years — and facilities for young people, a theme for two of the three years. The two topics go hand in hand. Young people recognise the lack of facilities as a major issue in their lives.

Ms Curran

I will go through the ten statements on facilities for young people which are ranked in order. Child fares on transport services should apply to under-18s and admission charges to facilities and events should be subsidised or reduced. Young people are asked to pay full adult fares, even though college students can get a cheaper train fare, which is completely unfair. In coming here today I had to pay the full fare, even though students were paying half the price and I was four years younger. Some 82% felt facilities should be jointly run by young people and youth workers. There were approximately three statements linked to people saying they wanted to have a voice in the facilities provided for them. There is no point in others providing facilities for young people. Young people know what they want and are capable of voicing what they want and how to go about doing it. It is very important that they feel listened to.

Statement 2 was that young people wanted a voice, while statement 4 was that voting age should be reduced to 16 years, with which 69% agreed. Young people want to feel they have some power and want politicians to listen to them. Statement 5 was that young people should have a direct influence on and input into the development and maintenance of youth facilities and related local activities. This shows the importance to young people of being given a role in the establishment and operation of the facilities which are put in place for them.

Some 93% of the people in question agreed with statement 3, which was that more facilities should be available within a reasonable distance, offering alternatives and longer opening hours. Dáil na nÓg clearly highlighted that people in rural areas feel that even though excellent facilities are available in some urban areas, or even in some rural areas, many young people have no access to them. Some young people who do not finish school until 4 o'clock cannot get a bus until 5 o'clock and do not arrive where they need to go until 6 o'clock, which is the closing time of many facilities. If one is running a youth facility with the aim of getting young people off the streets at night, it should be open and accessible at times when young people can avail of it, rather than during the day. Such facilities need to have longer opening hours, including earlier opening times at weekends.

Mr. Murphy

Some conclusions were reached in respect of alcohol and drug misuse. Some 82% of the delegates agreed that in addition to sports facilities, there should be more alcohol-free facilities for young people, such as youth cafés, drama and music venues and swimming pools. There are not many facilities available to young people who do not play sport. More funding should be made available for youth-related activities, such as youth clubs and youth advertising. Young people between the ages of 16 and 18 feel they are too old to go to teenage discos, which cater for people between the ages of 12 and 18, but they have nothing else to do for the weekend. The delegates considered whether local authorities should be asked to identify and develop old houses and derelict buildings as youth centres and clubs. Many houses are left unattended, as everyone knows, even though they could be used as great youth centres.

Mr. Ó Fathaigh

I will speak about the findings of Dáil na nÓg 2005 on the issue of facilities for young people. Some 79% of the delegates agreed that local authorities should have to interact with young people through a liaison officer employed to facilitate young people. If local authorities employed liaison officers to deal directly with youth issues — very few of them do so at present — young people would be satisfied that they are being listened to. Young people want access to politics at local level and to be able to contact a person who is easy to talk to. A youth liaison officer would fulfil that role.

People under the age of 18 should have access to facilities like discos and cinemas for €5 or less. The average disposable income of a young person is between €10 and €15 per week. If activities which are not associated with alcohol were more affordable, young people would be less inclined to start to abuse alcohol and other drugs. Given that many young people feel isolated and alienated by the Garda Síochána, it is clear that gardaí and other officials need to develop a better understanding of them. Dáil na nÓg agreed that gardaí are unapproachable and should improve their understanding of young people. They should be educated on youth-related issues and be given special training to deal and communicate with young people.

It is clear that activities for young people which promote healthy living should be cheaper. I refer to food, transport and recreation costs, for example. Given that most young people have little cash, it is cheaper for them to live an unhealthy than a healthy lifestyle. Prices influence young people's lifestyle choices. For example, it costs €10 per hour to rent a tennis court, but just €5 per night to rent a DVD from Xtra-vision. Are the members of the committee aware that a litre of Dutch Gold lager is cheaper than a litre of bottled water?

Young people are restricted in their choices of activities because their social lives are purely based on their disposable incomes. As Ms Curran mentioned earlier, the opening hours of youth facilities should be extended and changed. There are many leisure centres in this country, but they are only available to young people between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. during the week and for an odd hour at the weekend. Given that only adults are permitted on such premises at weekends, where should young people go? The opening hours of such facilities should be changed to accommodate the academic timetables of young people. I invite my colleague, Ms Curran, to issue a call for action.

Ms Curran

If facilities which cater for young people are to be successfully put in place, they need to be accessible and affordable and increased funding needs to be made available. Accessibility is an absolute priority if young people are to be allowed to avail of the facilities which are in place and will be put in place in future. Affordability is incredibly important to young people, who do not have very much money. If it is cheaper for them to purchase alcohol than to use a youth facility or to eat healthy food, they will decide to purchase alcohol. Not only is additional funding needed for new facilities, but it is also important that the level of funding being allocated to existing services in increased. There are some good example of facilities which are working for young people throughout the country. Such facilities need more money.

Mr. Ó Fathaigh

Young people want to play an active part in the design and management of the facilities they use. It is important to them that such facilities should be interesting. Young people are frequently blamed for acts of vandalism. If they had an active role in the design and running of youth facilities, they would be less inclined to vandalise and misuse them. As Mr. Murphy said earlier, there is a need for a greater variety of facilities because most of them are sports-related at present. Some young people feel isolated because they do not participate in sporting activities. We need more youth clubs, drama and music venues and youth cafés, similar to "the gaff" in Galway. On behalf of Ms Curran, Mr. Murphy and the entire coiste, I thank the joint committee for inviting us to attend this meeting. If members have any questions, we will be pleased to answer them.

I am sure I reflect the joint committee's feelings when I compliment the delegation on its punchy presentation, which is packed tight with information. Like most public representatives, I say to myself after I visit schools that I wish I did so more often. Some young people seem to think that politicians have three or four heads. Perhaps some of them think we have four heads, three arms and two tails. When we interact with each other, we realise it is important that people who make decisions have the full range of information available to them.

I will invite a number of members of the committee to ask questions before allowing the delegation to respond. It is clear there are many new sporting facilities in this country. Does the delegation believe the facilities are enough, or do they need to be accompanied by additional personnel? Mr. Ó Fathaigh said that young people should be involved in the management of facilities, but is there also a need for a paid co-ordinator to initiate some things which young people would then be put in charge of?

The joint committee often hears people talking about the facilities enjoyed by GAA clubs or schools. Most schools have good computer systems now that extensive broadband facilities have been put in place. Young people who are not interested in sport might be interested in computers. Have the members of the delegation examined the possibility of school facilities being used after hours? Is it the case that students are not prepared to consider the possibility of using school facilities in the evenings? The committee often hears the argument that school facilities, such as sporting facilities, are under-used because they cannot be used after 4 p.m.

How do we open the doors to young people? If adult politicians call meetings, do young people come to them? Do they assume that the meetings are not for them? How can we differentiate between young people who want to engage and those who do not? I assume that those involved in the coiste want to engage and to be involved in the system. Have the members of the delegation explored what can be done with their counterparts who do not want to get involved in the system? I could ask many more questions but I will allow Deputy Deenihan and others to contribute.

I join the Chairman in welcoming the delegation and complimenting it on its concise presentation. It seems that the delegation has its own Minister of State, which is a big start. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time a delegation has come to a meeting of this committee accompanied by a Minister or Minister of State and some officials. The members of the delegation present here today should regard themselves as being very powerful. I am sure the Minister of State will deliver on the various demands which have been outlined today.

I thank the Deputy.

I am sure Ms Curran, Mr. Murphy and Mr. Ó Fathaigh are politicians of the future because they have done very well at this meeting. I was surprised they did not mention anything about the school system. Can they outline the role they see for schools in youth development? Every young person in Ireland is educated in the primary sector, although some of them drop out of the education system in the post-primary sector. Surely school is very important. I am surprised it was not mentioned because it is the most important place for young people aged five to 18 years and even extending into third level education. Why was the role of school in the development of social and emotional education of young people not considered?

The Chairman referred to using the vast resource of school facilities at primary and post-primary levels. Massive resources have been invested in schools, yet they lie vacant in the evenings and at weekends. Young people in many towns have no facilities but the local schools are in darkness. Has the group considered how schools could be used? Is it applying pressure on the Minister or others to have schools opened up for activities?

When I taught in a comprehensive school the local youth club used the sports hall very effectively. While some difficulties arose with regard to the use of equipment which I used during the week, once young people were given responsibility for its storage and ensuring it was not damaged, the number of problems decreased.

Schools have a critical role to play. Facilities are most needed after school, particularly from 7 p.m. until midnight. It is during these times that everything, including youth clubs, is closed. Mainstream youth workers, like the rest of the professions — although not politicians — work from nine to five and are at home during these hours. I do not propose that they should work all night but provision should be made for qualified personnel to be more available to young people in the evenings, particularly at night. I made this point a few weeks ago when a delegation from a group called Breaking Through appeared before the joint committee. The group agreed that social workers should be available to young people at all times. Professionals and volunteers need to be available to organise activities for young people in the same age group as the members of the delegation. This is the case in other countries but not here. From my observations, it appears that the number of activities taking place in the evening in many towns has fallen since youth services were mainstreamed.

I ask for the delegation's views on a concept I am trying to promote in my home town. The witnesses, as experts, could give me good advice. It is a little like Question Time in the Dáil. They should imagine they are Ministers taking questions from Deputies. What are their views on hang-out centres, a concept with which they are obviously familiar? How should they be run? If one was established in their town, what should be in it? What calibre of people should run such a centre? While young people would clearly need to have a strong input, who would run it?

I am not inviting comments on my next statement. There must be a complete change in attitude and policy on youth work and the provision of youth services. One has the impression that they operate from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. when they should really be available from 5 p.m. to 1 a.m., a period in which young people, youth workers and youth programmes are needed given that the rest of the day is spent at school. Youth services should focus on after school and night time activities to ensure young people do not hang around in crowds on the streets with nothing to do, which is how they get into trouble.

I welcome the deputation. The confidence with which its members made their presentation gives us all a boost. The two previous speakers referred to using schools. If our young people are similar to me when I was young, they want to get away from school. If the core issue of providing facilities for young people is not addressed, we will continue to have a problem. Major investment has been made through national lottery funding to provide sports facilities and so forth. These facilities should be made available for wider use. For example, if lottery funding is spent to build a GAA, soccer or rugby club in a particular area, it should be stipulated that local youth clubs be permitted to use such facilities. In this way, a youth club will maintain its identity while its members can immerse themselves in the activities available at the club in question. Have approaches been made to sports clubs requesting access to their facilities? If so, were the responses negative or positive? Have clubs offered facilities to allow groups to provide other forms of entertainment? Not everyone wishes to be involved in sport and many young people opt for music, drama, dance and so forth. Recreation should include all forms of entertainment.

I welcome the comments on alcohol and healthy living. I am surprised a disagreement appears to have arisen about the demand that local authorities be requested to identify and develop old houses and derelict buildings as youth centres or clubs. Why did disagreement arise? Perhaps this is a misprint in the presentation because I would expect the group to agree with such a demand.

What should be done with regard to facilities attached to clubs outside the scope of Coiste na dTeachtaí? What is its position on the Garda? In my area, a ban garda was appointed as a community garda and liaised with the local young people. Perhaps the lack of liaison with clubs and young people in particular areas needs to be addressed. I welcome all the ideas the delegation has put forward. The joint committee will follow them up. It is great to see young people show such confidence at this type of meeting. I wish them well.

Fáiltím roimh an toscaireacht. Bhí mé an-tógtha ar fad leis an chur i láthair, bhí sé an-phroifisiúnta agus an-stuama. Molaim go hard sibh. I welcome the delegation, with which I was exceptionally impressed. I do not say this in a patronising manner but for a number of other reasons. It has acted in an extremely democratic fashion by surveying the views of so many young people. As such, the presentation is much more than the views of only three or four people and Coiste na dTeachtaí is living up to one of its aims, which is to be a voice for themselves.

It is possible a consultant would not have been as successful in sourcing the type of information, including statistics, available in the presentation. I was also taken by the underlying responsibility evident in the work the group is doing. It is great to hear young people ask for more alcohol free facilities. We spend an unbelievable amount of time in the Seanad discussing the abuse of alcohol. We discuss the problem and reports about it and so on. I am not sure whether we are making progress but I am encouraged when I see young people giving leadership in this regard. If they require funding to support them, we should listen carefully as it might be a more worthwhile use of funds than the production of reports on which a great deal of money is spent.

It strikes me as a sign of the times to hear 16 year olds are too old for a disco. I made the same point. We might have been regarded as a deprived generation but I do not think we were. We had great opportunities to enjoy ourselves with ballroom dancing, showbands, céilí bands and so on. Halls were packed and people had five and six hours of entertainment at one time. We are of an age now when we can reminisce about it. In fairness to young people, if at a certain age they feel discos are no longer of interest and the pub is the only other choice, it is very hard to blame them if they become part of that pub culture.

A couple of things struck me. The mettle is available to deliver. Have young people ever considered doing these things themselves? Sometimes at local level one has to put one's head above the parapet and say one is going to do A, B or C. Generally, buildings and other infrastructure are available. What is lacking is the leadership to do something. I established a new club at the age of 16 and a half and enjoyed every minute of it. I must have been a right pain in the neck for a lot of adults at the time. Nevertheless, when young people do things, they lead other young people with them. Instead of starting on the basis that something extra is needed, why do young people not start something themselves?

Twenty years ago teachers were involved in extensive extracurricular activities such as pageants, plays, marching bands and so on. That gap has not been filled. Perhaps Dáil na nÓg could find out why this is not happening and also be proactive in this area. Is it due to a lack of vocation, compensation or remuneration? These issues must be examined. There is a dearth of after-school activities led by teachers with the assistance of young people. Many young activists grew out of that environment and a gap has been left. Perhaps we should engage with young people to try to establish how we can fill the vacuum. Lack of personnel and leadership is the problem, more than a lack of buildings.

We should find a way to engage with the group represented in the longer term, not just by having an exchange of ideas, although that is important. This is probably one of the most invigorating presentations we have heard, even though most of the others would be made by adults from professional backgrounds. I found today's session to be exceptionally invigorating but we should find a way of ensuring continuity.

I am a little concerned about my seat in the Seanad having heard some of the speakers today. I do not know how the Members of the Dáil feel. We seldom witness such a television approach to presentations. Every time we thought our concentration span was getting a little weak the next person took over and we absorbed everything that was said. I would love to find some forum in which to make what they are doing even more pragmatic and practical. As the Minister of State with special responsibility for children is an exceptionally innovative man, he might come up with something. I am being genuine. There is absolutely no reason we should not push out the parameters.

Sometimes we can be a little stodgy and not prepared to move. We could have ongoing interaction with Dáil na nÓg. We could find a quiet committee room twice a year and any Deputy or Senator who wished to engage with it could do so. We would learn from such a process. I hope in that way we would be able to establish real measures. I sincerely compliment the young people before us. They provide exceptionally good leadership material for young people. They could be a conduit between the statutory bodies, those with the purse strings and those who create legislation. We should push out the boundaries a little and be somewhat ambitious and adventurous in trying to help them.

I understand the Minister of State has to leave. Does he wish to speak? Perhaps he could give us a guarantee that at some point he would come back to us and respond to issues raised by Dáil na nÓg.

I would be delighted to do so. Caithfidh mé imeacht anois. I join in the tributes paid to the excellent quality of the presentation.

Ba mhaith liomsa fáiltiú roimh an toscaireacht freisin. Bhí an cur i láthair ar fheabhas, agus molaim iad. That was an excellent presentation. My comments may not relate directly to the various issues presented to us but I wish to focus on the issue of community and becoming involved with the wider community. I have seen many cases of younger people becoming involved with the disabled, the elderly, the immigrant community, the Traveller community and so on. Young people have a big role to play in this regard. I have seen this happen, in particular, in the case of the elderly and the disabled, where excellent rapport was developed for the good of all concerned.

I am concerned about the group of disaffected youth. We are dealing here with young people who have a positive orientation. Even if facilities are provided, that, in itself, will not result in the involvement of young people who are involved in anti-social behaviour, unless other measures are brought to bear. There is also a question of whether facilities should be provided for the exclusive use of young people or if they should be shared with other groups involving adults. This might lead to more progress in accessing the facilities required.

Like my colleague, Deputy Wall, I was alarmed by point No. 8 in the presentation which referred to the Garda and officials having a better understanding of young people. I can understand to some extent how difficulties can arise but I would like a representative of the group to expand on how serious is the gap in understanding and communications.

What we really need to do is sit around and discuss matters over a cup of coffee, rather than in this formal setting. In some respects, that would be a more beneficial use of our time. The role of the committee is more formal.

Deputy Deenihan referred to drop-in centres. I am aware of some in my area. In Buncrana, one room in the youth club was given to young people. When they inquired if it would be fixed up for them, they were told it was their facility and they could do whatever they wanted to it, as it was their space. They filled it with bean bags. They were asking what colour it could be painted and were told it could be painted any colour they liked. They used the most hideous form of lime green paint, said it looked awful, asked what they should do and were told to do whatever they wanted. Now Homer and Bart Simpson are on one wall and anything and everything is on the others. It is a good drop-in centre because those in charge are those who want to use it. However, it does not engage the little boy racers outside. I wonder what engages such people. Some 82% of people said they wanted alcohol-free venues and I would love to believe 82% would use them. We find the no-alcohol rule does not work if strictly enforced.

Senator Ó Murchú referred to the age of the dance fans and the fact that 16 is now too old for one to go to a disco. When I was in England for a year, one went out at 7 p.m. and went to as many bars as one wanted. Last orders were at 10.30 p.m. and everybody was home by 11 p.m. and able to get up the next morning. Had I gone out in Donegal before 11 p.m. I would have been sitting in the pub alone. If one went out before 12.30 a.m. in Donegal today, I doubt that one would find anybody else out at the time. Is there a way in which a group could decide to go out together and form the necessary critical mass earlier than this? Could the youth have a role in this? The time at which one goes out seems to be getting later and later. It is not trendy to go out before 1 a.m. and it is definitely not trendy to come home before 5 a.m. Is this considered the right thing to do? Is there a role we can play to address this?

There are a million questions one could ask. The representatives may deal with as many as they can.

This was a great opportunity for us, as elected representatives, to put questions to young people and listen to their responses. It is a very good exercise for us and it is very important that the representatives respond.

That is why I am now offering them the floor.

Mr. Murphy

The first point is that the provision of sports facilities should be encouraged. The GAA provides a great facility but it is very competitive. I, who cannot play sport competitively, would love to be able to go down to the local complex and kick a ball with people of my skill level. Gaelic games and all other sports are just too competitive. Many sports tie one down and many people are not using facilities because they have part-time jobs and other interests. It would be great if they had the freedom to come and go on a weekly or monthly basis and not be forced to attend every Tuesday night, as would a member, at the risk of losing one's place if one did not turn up.

Is Mr. Murphy saying people might be interested in sport but not in competitive sport? Is it that they want to kick a ball around rather than be a member of a team?

Mr. Murphy

Yes. As I said, membership ties one down and people do not have time to train twice per week.

Sessions operate in blocks in clubs, between 7 p.m. and 8 p.m., 8 p.m. and 9 p.m., and 9 p.m. and 10 p.m., for example. If one is not a member of a club, one cannot use the facilities.

Mr. Murphy

That is what I find too. I have a part-time job and can never say I will be able to make an appointment on a Tuesday night. There are many in a similar position.

What system does Mr. Murphy believe should be in place to solve that problem?

That is a question most of us have asked. If the pitches in the schools were open for use after school hours, would they be used? I do not refer to their use by a GAA club or soccer club.

Mr. Murphy

Our old school has a complex that sits empty. On the odd night during the week it may be open to adults as those running it need to make some money. The school is open for evening study and that is all. There are two computer rooms and plenty of facilities, and the main excuse is that there is nobody present to supervise the youth. There is no trust between students and teachers.

Do the delegates want the committee to send a message to the Minister for Education and Science stating they would like to see the schools open more often?

Mr. Murphy

Most certainly, yes.

Ms Curran

Dáil na nÓg highlighted that there are plenty of facilities in existence, such as those in schools and existing youth services, but that the youth cannot use them. Young people would definitely use the facilities in their schools if they were open. If one is in school all day, one wants to leave afterwards. Therefore, a clear distinction needs to be made in order that youth using facilities after-hours are not regarded as being in school and engaging in extra-curricular activities. There are organised extra-curricular activities in schools but, as Mr. Murphy highlighted, they are only for those who are interested in joining school societies or clubs. There are those who need facilities planted in front of them but I agree with Mr. Murphy that the school pitch should be open for people other than those who are constantly winning gold medals on the school team. I refer to those who might play rugby with a tennis ball in an unorganised game. There should be a very clear distinction between extra-curricular activity and "hanging out". "Hanging out" and "chilling" are the buzz words — we are young people and we want to hang out. If one gives young people a field they will find something to do, but there is a need for safe supervision of young people.

Schools are fantastic resources and so much money has been given to them that they should be used. In the case of any initiative that involves young people, everybody should work together, including staff of youth clubs that already exist and teachers. In my school, some of the teachers are fantastic but at 4 p.m. they go home. Fair play to teachers, they have an awful lot of hassle to put up with these days. Even I notice this as a student. One of the problems is that teachers are nearly afraid to supervise a group of young people after school. However, the belief that young people will climb the walls of the school and cover the gym in graffiti, which would be found by the principal the next morning, is a social stereotype. I could nearly guarantee this will not happen. There are always some who will try to ruin a facility for others but if 50 young people remained in a school for a few hours per night, there would be no problems.

We will send that message to the Minister for Education and Science on the delegates' behalf although I am sure they are conveying it themselves.

What is the position on hang-out centres?

Mr. Ó Fathaigh

Drop-in centres.

No. I am referring to hang-out centres where there would be coffee, healthy drinks and a range of different facilities, such as PlayStations. These "hang-out centres" are being used in the United Kingdom and are different to drop-in centres. Have the delegates considered and tried to promote this concept throughout the country through the youth agencies? The Garda and education authorities would also have a role to play. I regard it as a way forward such that people like Mr. Murphy, who are tied down by jobs, could drop in to a hang-out centre at 9 p.m. and find something to interest them. As far as I am aware, this has not been tried. I am trying to establish such a centre in a certain location but I am wondering whether the delegates have explored the possibility, recommended anywhere suitable or considered an example in another country.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of the drop-in centres? What is missing and what constraints exist?

Mr. Ó Fathaigh

We cannot expect young people to just go into a room and be entertained. There could be drop-in centres beside basketball or tennis courts so people could hang out near to the sporting facilities. There could be indoor areas with vending machines, doing away with the need to stock shops in the facilities. Only one or two people would be needed to supervise and to ensure things do not get out of hand or that scumbags do not come along and start a riot.

We have a drop-in centre incorporated into a youth centre. Football goes on both inside and outside and basketball can be also played. It is a multifunctional building and a room was given over to young people to do what they wanted, they are fully in control of it. It is not a room in isolation but within an overall complex.

Mr. Ó Fathaigh

That should happen in every town in Ireland. People who do not play sports could hang out in the room and those who want to play could do so for a while but would not have to do it all day. Sometimes the games can be too competitive.

Sometimes a game of darts is as important as a game of football.

Mr. Ó Fathaigh

Yes, and table tennis and pool. At present sports are very competitive. If someone is on a team, he or she trains, runs laps and then plays in the match for five minutes and is expected to be happy with that for the whole weekend. We need informal facilities.

There has been a lot of talk about sport but what about music? Should there be a drum kit and an electric guitar in the drop-in centre? Does that depend on to whom the young people are listening? Is it uncool to be into the marching band concept?

Mr. Ó Fathaigh

It depends on who is asked. The sports people want sports while other people would want drums and electric guitars. Music does not require facilities, a person gets a guitar and a friend teaches him or her to use it. Music is not difficult to organise in comparison to sport, where ten people a side and floodlighting are needed. Adding music would attract young people and the more people come in, the more they get to know they are not that different from each other. Sports people could talk to the more cool people who are interested in music and who read books. They would all hang out and it would help break down barriers between sports people and cool people.

Is it difficult to get a social night in facilities that sports clubs already own? Are they booked out in advance or do people have to be members to get in? Is there any possibility of recreation that is not sport-centred? We have pumped huge money into these places and some of them are open only at the weekends. Time is available during the week and the facilities are not used then, providing ideal opportunities for clubs to use them.

Ms Curran

Dáil na nÓg voted on community groups with young people having a say through a liaison officer or youth group. That is where schools come back into the equation. Representative committees for teachers and community interests should take place in schools, with workshops for parents and teachers.

The facilities exist but co-ordination is a problem. I am chairman of many groups and if I contact the local GAA club and explain that we are a youth group without much money, it will ask €150 for a room. I help to organise fundraisers for those clubs but they are very possessive over their own facilities because they have worked hard to get funds for them. Once they have them they do not want anything to go wrong and want to make their money back. Either we pay to use them like customers or we cannot use them at all. That is the problem.

Today's session has identified the missing pieces of the jigsaw but we must do something about them. We agree there are good facilities in the schools and owned by organisations. There is a demand from young people for activities and they would respond positively to them. Part of the difficulty is the negative stereotyping of young people, much of which is exceptionally unfair. If we could do something about that it might get rid of the insurance issue which arises when such stereotyping is brought to the fore. Adults also misbehave the same as young people but they are not stereotyped in the same way.

There is a lack of leadership and supervision after school and there should be a way to co-ordinate these matters. We all agree on the issues that must be confronted but co-ordinating them is the real challenge. In a complex society, because different elements deal with different agencies, no one brings them together but there should be an effort to co-ordinate them.

I asked initially if the problem lies with facilities or, as I think, with personnel. People can find a building. In the rural social scheme, where people earn less than the minimum wage through farming, they attend to community related jobs such as opening and closing the local GAA club. If there was a scheme to employ people as co-ordinators it would be worthwhile. The difficulty, however, is that it would involve employing someone from 3 p.m. until midnight, not from 9 a.m. until 5 p.m.

Have there been difficulties with insurance? What age group is represented? The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children with responsibility for children's affairs is attached to this group, not a Minister for youth. Should there be such a position?

I agree there is too much emphasis on competitive sport. Six year old children are being coached in competitive sport but there should be more emphasis on recreational sport.

That issue was raised on a previous occasion. People spoke to us about amateurism versus professionalism, where people are being squeezed out of sport because they did not make the A or B teams.

Is there any link between youth clubs and the Garda? Gardaí nowadays seem to live in towns far from where they work. Only those on duty could have a link with youth clubs. Does it create a problem when the uniform appears or are gardaí creative in finding a friendly way to drop in to youth clubs for a chat to ensure all is well?

Ms Curran

I was shocked by the response to the point raised at Dáil na nÓg about the need for gardaí and officials to have a better understanding of youth. Some people had a negative view of the Garda and felt that wherever they were, gardaí picked on them.

This applies not only to the sight of the uniform. It is an overall negative impression. They feel that whenever they hang out on a corner, they will be asked in an aggressive way what they are doing and why they are there. There seems to be a general suspicion of young people. Some say that when they sit on a bench outside a supermarket, security guards ask them to move on.

In some towns the liaison officers work hard on their own initiative. The only time I see my local liaison officer is when she comes after people who have exceeded the 20 days they may take off school. The problem then is that young people associate the liaison officer with being in trouble. When one sees a young person walking beside a garda, one immediately wonders what he or she did whereas they might be having a natural conversation. There is an assumption that the person is in trouble.

This issue was highlighted at Dáil na nÓg and since then we have had a great deal of co-operation with the Garda. Next month we will go to the Garda College at Templemore to discuss the possibility of extending the two weeks' training in youth relations that gardaí do with young people. They must also spend a month working in the community. Some choose to focus on youth work. For example, in my area there is a student garda doing that.

While that is an excellent facility they can choose from many other aspects of community welfare and do not have to work with young people. They can work with the disabled, the Irish Wheelchair Association etc., so they do not necessarily receive training in dealing with young people. We hope to discuss with gardaí the possibility of more extensive training for them in working with young people. Generally, it was recognised that the young gardaí are not the problem but the older ones who have had bad experiences with young people, who do not respect them and stereotype them. That is where the change is needed and I hope that will be addressed.

Perhaps Coiste na dTeachtaí should discuss some of these issues with representatives of the teachers' unions. It could put the points to them that it has made at this meeting regarding after-school activity and availability of facilities. It could also do this with the managers' association in the schools. Has Coiste na dTeachtaí sought a meeting with the Garda to discuss——

Ms Curran has just said a meeting is scheduled.

It could use today as a springboard because if this visit is on its curriculum vitae, that will strengthen its credibility when approaching other institutions and people connected with them. Having prepared its presentation so well and on which there seems to be unanimity, it would be a pity if the organisation did not take the matter one step further. Using its own voice Coiste na dTeachtaí could put some of these points to the teachers and managers of the schools.

I have no problem dealing with any other topic Coiste na dTeachtaí wishes to address but we have been through several topics. I suggest that those who are present encourage their peers to engage with their local and national public representatives.

The National Youth Council representative is present. I have had contact with my local youth council and have invited it to come here to see the Houses of the Oireachtas soon. The guests will have a chance to investigate whether the Visitors' Bar sells diet Coca Cola and whether it is more expensive here than elsewhere.

The message should go out from Coiste na dTeachtaí that it is important to talk to us because if people come to us with issues, we have a better chance of keeping up to date or trendy, or of using the right buzz words. We are only as good as the number of young people who talk to us. If the people Coiste na dTeachtaí talks to after this meeting are not interested or helpful, it is time to change them. A working interaction with public representatives is important.

This committee will hear a presentation on the National Drugs Strategy soon on cannabis and on whether the strategy should cover alcohol. Although the time is short, would Coiste na dTeachtaí make a submission to us on these topics which we could include in the report we are preparing? It would be useful to get the perspective of young people on these issues.

I am interested in the presentation on under age drinking Coiste na dTeachtaí made under Sustaining Progress. We will probably ask for a copy of that. We are trying to show young people that we are interested in them. We do not always get the opportunity to engage with them. That depends on the personal circumstances of each Deputy or Senator.

I thank Coiste na dTeachtaí for taking the time to attend and I thank those who accompanied the delegation. We will keep up the pressure on the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science with responsibility for children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, and the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, because many of the issues raised involve educational facilities. We will also put pressure on the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism on the sports issues. The committee has already touched on issues such as amateurism versus professionalism, why people cannot just kick a ball around but it has always led to something else. It is good to hear Coiste na dTeachtaí reinforcing these points and showing us that our work is not too far astray from where it should be.

I agree with Senator Ó Murchú's suggestion that Coiste na dTeachtaí interact with us twice a year. In the meantime, it should encourage other people to contact their local public and national representatives which might keep the interaction going. I hope now that our door has been opened, Coiste na dTeachtaí will feel free to knock on it at any time.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until Wednesday, 15 February 2006.

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