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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Oct 2009

Arts Funding: Discussion.

I welcome Ms Pat Moylan, chairperson of the Arts Council, Ms Mary Cloake, director, Mr. Brendan Gleeson and Mr. Colum McCann to speak on the funding of the arts in the present economic downturn. We also have representatives of Theatre Forum Ireland who are hidden at the back of the room. We will listen to the representatives of the Arts Council and take comments from our members and I will invite the delegation to express its views. I will then invite Theatre Forum Ireland representatives to join us.

I draw attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I warmly welcome the delegation from the Arts Council and from Theatre Forum Ireland. We have a job of work to do which is to try to protect the arts in these times, following the McCarthy report. We have a long and respected artistic tradition in this country. In supporting the arts we are not starting from scratch but preserving an integral part of our identity. We look to you, our friends who have joined us today, as the primary guardians of that identity to advise us on these matters. The first person I will invite to make her presentation is Ms Pat Moylan, chairperson of the Arts Council. Does Ms Cloake wish to speak?

Ms Mary Cloake

I will answer questions.

I am thrilled that Mr. Brendan Gleeson, who has acted in more than 60 films, could be with us today. My favourite is "In Bruges", and I congratulate him on his distinguished career. He is now making his debut as a director in an adaptation of a Flann O'Brien novel, and we wish him well in that. We also have Mr. Colum McCann, who has just managed to finish a book, "Let the Great World Spin" and we congratulate him on that.

I was in Abu Dhabi last week waiting to get on a plane, and I had a copy of Sebastian Barry's book, "A Long, Long Way". A fellow traveller picked up the book and was very excited about the author and spoke for ten to 15 minutes about Sebastian Barry and all our fantastic artists. It reminded me of the tremendous reputation that we have abroad. These authors have been our cultural ambassadors and we thank them for it. Those of us on this committee who are fighting the artistic cause need them now, so this is a very important meeting. We will use whatever contribution they make today to fight for that cause.

I now invite Ms Moylan to make her opening remarks. I presume Mr. Gleeson and Mr. McCann will have something to say, and then our members will have some questions.

Ms Pat Moylan

I thank the committee for inviting us to talk with them this afternoon. When I took over as chairman of the Arts Council last February, I had the daunting task of appearing before this committee. At that time, I spoke from the heart, using my background in commercial theatre to underpin my thoughts, because I lacked any real experience in the funded arena. During that first nine months, my eyes have been opened. I have travelled the length and breadth of the country, I have spoken to artists in all disciplines, and I now know more about how the arts sector works, but I am still learning. Most importantly, I have a much deeper understanding of how vitally important it is to fund the arts; for the people who work in the arts, but also for the nation. I would like to share that new insight with the committee today.

I would like to illustrate the folly of treating the arts as some of kind leisure pastime for the middle classes, as something that is nice to have, but not something that we need to have in tough times, or something on which the State can save money at the moment without too much negative consequence. I do not deride that point of view. I can understand how people carrying out an emergency exercise on the nation's finances might have seen it as an obvious and legitimate target and moved on. However, it is a flawed analysis and a faulty conclusion. I am saying this not only as a lover of the arts and a guardian of my constituency. I am saying it as a business woman. It simply makes bad business sense.

I have said that funding the arts is crucially important for the people who work in the arts and for the nation. Let me talk first about the people. The Arts Council supports 3,000 jobs, both directly and indirectly, with the €73 million allocation it receives from the taxpayer. In turn, those organisations pay €65 million in direct and indirect taxes each year. Artists, actors, musicians and all those in the broad arts family work with a sense of vocation. They certainly gain much personal satisfaction when their work goes well, but to follow this way of life they are prepared to submit to low earnings, periods of no earnings, to continuous assessment of their work and talent – much of it public — to insecurity of employment or the loneliness of working in front of a computer or canvas. There are no pension schemes, no lavish expenses, no sinecures . In other words, there is no fat. Funding cuts go straight to the bone.

A very small number of artists achieve international distinction and get the appropriate reward. They are important national assets, and their success and emergence is made possible only by the existence of a strong arts culture, a vibrant artistic community where they learned their trade and grew, and from which they drew much of their inspiration. This brings me to the second reason, which is that the arts are crucially important to the nation. These top-line performers, these Broadway successes, these winners of Tony awards, Booker prizes, and Nobel prizes for literature are all well regarded in Ireland. Can members imagine how treasured these people would be if they were Olympic gold medalists, golf major winners, triple crown champions? We would clamour for more facilities in pools, tracks, pitches, stadia, coaching and training to ensure more success in the future, and rightly so. However, in the arts world that is exactly what we have; proven champions and winners.

Their success says much about them as people, but it also declares to the world that a country which breeds and produces such illustrious achievement and such creative talent must itself have a great deal to offer. It must have something to offer to cultural tourists, to inward investors, to companies seeking to locate enterprises, to other creative organisations needing to feed art skills to serve their own creative work. Thoughtless hacking at the artistic foundation from which they emerged will reduce our chances of future champions of the arts. Where will the next Seamus Heaney come from, the next Anne Enright, the next Brendan Gleeson or Colum McCann? These are the names that act like a magnet when it comes to bringing tourists to this country. Cultural tourism is a significant contribution to the economy, and it cannot be ignored.

The arts are not just for tourists. They are primarily for ourselves. The participation of people in Ireland in the arts is vast. Either as active participants or as consumers of arts output, it is greater than mass attendance and I am told, greater than the involvement in the GAA.

I have mentioned the economic facts about jobs and taxes for people working in the arts, but there is tremendous potential for growing jobs in the interface between the arts and other creative industries. One example is the field of video games and on-line games. That is a growth sector if ever there was one. This sector needs narrative, actors' voices, visual artists, music and so on. There are other potential sources of creative and innovative enterprise starting or locating here in Ireland, because of our reputation and the reality that we in Ireland are a creative people. We in the Arts Council are targeting this collaboration with creative companies as an area that we can stimulate.

On the inspirational role of the arts in our society, I believe that the arts provide a vital uplifting of the soul of the nation. I know it is something not apparent to everybody. They might not realise it until it is gone, until theatres go dark, until festivals are cancelled, until artists and actors join the interview queue for Dunnes Stores, until we reverse the progress of probably the most successful sector in Irish life, and until we turn our faces toward the prospect of a cultural desert. Let us not cry over the spilt milk, but let us hold on tightly to what we have!

Let me conclude by taking members back 700 years to another powerful, hard-headed group of bankers and business people, namely, the Medici family in Florence. They had the wisdom to invest heavily in the arts. What did they get as a return on their investment? They got Michelangelo. They got Leonardo da Vinci. They got the great upsurge of development and enlightenment of the Renaissance, and the great leap forward in civilisation that changed the face of Europe. Today I am asking committee members to remember that the wealth of the nation cannot be measured in euro and cent. A proper audit of Ireland must also include the richness of our artistic heritage, its practical value today and its potential to inspire and enrich our nation in the future. Thank you. I wish to ask my colleagues, Mr. McCann and Mr. Gleeson, to say a few words.

Mr. Colum McCann

The Arts Council is our unique voice and we want to keep it. I am privileged to be here today to try to give the members of the committee an idea of what it means to be an artist and to benefit, as I have, from the work of the council. While I do not know all the consequences of the grant I got from the Arts Council in the early 1990s, I know it gave me the best part of a year to do my work of writing short stories and novels. Perhaps I would have written them if I had not received the grant, but part of me feels that the grant allowed me to access our great democracy of storytelling. As a younger artist at the time, it was amazing for me to be allowed to be Irish even when I was abroad. Although I was living in New York, I was acknowledged as part of this country's necessary voice. It was an extraordinary moment for me. It allowed me to write other books and ultimately to address this committee today about the value of what it does and the value of what we are allowed to do.

In many ways, the Members of the Oireachtas understand what it is to be an author, an artist or somebody who creates things. They appreciate how difficult the business of creating legislation or creating access can be. They are aware of the years of work that are necessary to produce what, on the surface, might seem like the simplest of documents. They have a unique understanding of what it means to be on my side of the table. Irish artists thank them deeply for the contributions they make. Similarly, the Arts Council has been absolutely fantastic in what it has done for us.

I have travelled to many parts of the world, particularly in recent years. I have been to Slovakia, Mexico, the United States, France and Germany, for example. People in every country seem to believe they are the best friends of the Irish. The Germans tend to say they have a unique relationship with the Irish. The French say that nobody else has such a relationship, as do the Slovakians. Part of me feels the reason they say that is because we have been allowed — we have had the privilege — to tell our stories. I do not want that voice to become part of the global elevator music that is out there. By protecting the arts, the Arts Council and the artists, we will allow that voice to be uniquely strong. I thank the committee for its time.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for the opportunity to speak here today. There are two basic strands to what I want to say. The first strand concerns the core value of the arts in the life of the nation. It is essential that the arts should be supported for their own sake. Although Ms Moylan and Mr. McCann have covered this aspect of the matter eloquently, I would like to add my own tuppence-ha'penny worth. The second strand concerns the primary economic imperative of sowing in order to reap. Ill-advised short-term savings on seed will have catastrophic effects on the crop. Such savings do not make any practical sense, quite simply, at a time when canny economic investment is of the essence.

I refer to my experience to illustrate what I mean. I started my acting career with the Passion Machine theatre company, which was established to bring theatre to new areas. It was all about inclusion. It sought to bring theatre to people who would not normally think of theatre as having anything to do with them. Artistically, the company explored and reflected people's lives. The audiences, who came in their thousands, felt a real sense of identification with what they experienced. It was uplifting. The support of the Arts Council facilitated the expansion and development of the company. We ended up playing to packed houses in mainstream theatres. When we did ten-week runs in the Olympia Theatre, it was jammed to the rafters every night. In the midst of the dreadful economic desert of the 1980s, tens of thousands of people came to our shows and felt less isolated and less anonymous. They laughed a lot. They felt we were in this thing together, and so did we.

When the economic tide finally turned, we were ready for it and up for it. I would like to think we played our part in it. Our audiences, in turn, inspired many of us to take the leap and commit full-time to the artistic path. I refer to people like Paul Mercier, Roddy Doyle, Ger Ryan, Liam Cunningham, Liam Carney and dozens of others, including myself whose creative careers were fostered at that time. The Passion Machine's cultural dividend is pretty strong. It would be interesting to add up the funding the company received over its lifetime and place it alongside the revenues the country accrued from the careers of those it nurtured. I would say the country would be well in the black, perhaps from Roddy Doyle's "The Commitments" alone. The Passion Machine was just one company. I see that Garry Hynes and Fiach Mac Conghail are in the Visitors' Gallery. We should remember those who emerged from the Project Arts Centre, including Neil Jordan, Jim Sheridan, Gabriel Byrne and Liam Neeson. Visual artists and sculptors, such as Bobby Ballagh and John Behan, have also brought extraordinary credit to this country and helped to define it.

Millions of pounds, euro and dollars have been spent in Ireland as a result of the nurturing of the talent I have mentioned. From its inception, the Project Arts Centre has been able to operate in large part due to the support of the Arts Council. One can imagine the cultural and financial loss we would have suffered if it had been otherwise. It is immeasurable. Gabriel Byrne has asked me to mention the Sense of Ireland project, which went overseas in the 1970s. Do the members of the committee remember it? It was all part of the work of the Project Arts Centre. An unprecedented sense of this country was brought to an international audience as a consequence of something that had been created with the support of the Arts Council.

Arts funding is vital, for national morale in the first instance. This country was founded by dreamers and poets who strove, in the words of Pádraig Pearse:

To give a life

In the world of time and space among the bulk of actual things

To a dream that was dreamed in the heart, and that only the heart could hold.

That dream led to the foundation of this State. Despite everything, we have forged a distinct place among the nations of the earth, in large part due to our sense of self, the vigour of our commitment to artistic excellence and the uniqueness of our cultural expression. It is important to us and others respond to it. In times of recession and flagging spirits, it is especially important to reassert that sense of ourselves, for ourselves. The arts provide that above everything else. We need to communicate that self-belief to the world at large.

We punch well above our weight internationally, partly because we are and are seen to be creative. In literature, theatre, movies and every other branch of the arts, we continue to successfully demonstrate to the world that we can be a productive, innovative and dynamic people. This has economic as well as cultural benefits. People want to come here to be a part of it, whether to work or to play. It has an almost unquantifiable value. It is crucial that we maintain it if we are to emerge from our present difficulties. Funding is critical if we are to continue to enable intelligent and creative people to produce work here that has an intrinsic value to us and our well-being, promotes our reputation and standing abroad and generates revenue.

On a practical level, it is critical that the arts provide a sense of certainty in an uncertain economic climate. The future of the Irish Film Board seems to be under review. I can only relate to my own experience to illustrate how ill-advised such a move would be. I am currently involved in two projects that are supported by the board. "The Guard", which starts shooting next week, will spend between €4 million and €5 million in Spiddal and Dublin, which is pretty good news. It is supported by the Irish Film Board. It has an Irish cast and crew. It is successfully up and running, which is positive news. It is a job well done. The second film is my pet project, a film adaptation of Flann O'Brien's famous and brilliant novel, At Swim-Two-Birds, which is earmarked for next spring. It will showcase the gifts of four generations of Irish acting talent, including Gabriel Byrne, Colin Farrell, Cillian Murphy, Michael Fassbender, Liam Cunningham, Eamon Morrissey, Seán McGinley, Marie Mullen and a raft of younger actors, who represent the next generation. I will even be in it. The technical people we have gathered are world-class. We will spend €11 million in this country as we make the film. It will maintain a long tradition, from “Man of Aran” to “The Quiet Man”, “Ryan’s Daughter” and “The Field”, of showcasing the beauty of the Irish landscape.

Film has encouraged millions of people to come to these shores to see this country for themselves and, frankly, to spend their money. It is interesting to note that since the film "In Bruges", which the Chairman mentioned, came out two years ago, tourism levels in Bruges, which was already a tourist town, have increased by 30%. I remind the committee — I ask members to excuse my language — that Colin Farrell's character in the film called Bruges a "shithole". The images in Irish films speak for themselves.

It has taken six years to line up everything for At Swim-Two-Birds. The support and encouragement of the Irish Film Board has been vital to that process. Film and film production are such that everyone must jump together at the right time for a project to happen. It is a case of all or nothing. The time for At Swim-Two-Birds is next spring. If the board is removed from the equation or the moneys available to the industry are cut, the other elements — all the ships that are now in a line — will be scattered to the four winds and the film will not be made. What a lost opportunity that would be. That is not to state anything other than a fact.

It has been suggested by an bord snip nua that money could be saved by axing the Irish Film Board and transferring its functions to the IDA or a new enterprise agency. This appears not to be part of the new programme for Government although I do not know whether ensuring that "the supports provided by the Irish Film Board are maintained" means the Irish Film Board itself will be maintained. I derived that quotation from a newspaper.

It should be made clear that transferring the functions of the Irish Film Board to the IDA or a similar body is a bad idea. The IDA, understandably, knows nothing about film making. It is a highly specialised area and the IDA would therefore need to consult experts. Presumably it would form an advisory committee made up of people who now or previously served on the Irish Film Board. It would be nonsense and would be one more layer of bureaucracy, which is absolutely the last thing needed at this stage. It would certainly not save money but simply complicate decision making and result in the loss of projects. If there are savings to be made in the Irish Film Board, they should be made by reducing clutter, not by adding to it.

Speed of thought and dynamism are essential to capture film projects for the country. There must obviously be safeguards against abuse. Willingness to engage and certainty of intent are the major factors involved. When producers seek to shoot in a particular jurisdiction, and when jurisdictions are essentially up for grabs, it is imperative to be in their faces immediately with a meaningful and rock-solid tax incentive, a realistic cost base and any other incentive that can be made available to cut through red tape and ease the passage. The essential requirement of any film project, particularly in the current climate, is clarity of cost in so far as that is possible. We have a decent tax incentive and we must not undermine it by breeding uncertainty, which would be a disaster.

I recently had a chat with the massively successful producer and director Mr. Ridley Scott at the Primetime Emmy Awards. He told me had wanted to shoot his Robin Hood movie in Ireland but that, at the time, there was uncertainty about the tax regime. This has since been righted but, in the interim, the project and a number of others went to Britain. Expenditure on the Robin Hood film alone was $200 million. I asked Mr. Scott whether I could quote him in this regard. We lost a $200 million project because we were not clear about our intentions. Fifteen years ago, when we secured "Braveheart", a film in respect of which much of the $80 million budget was spent here rather than in Scotland, as originally intended, and which spawned ten years of further projects, we gave the producers clear commitments regarding the finances and secured the co-operation of the Army and FCA for good measure. This worked and I can still recall the FCA lads flashing enthusiastically en masse on a grassy knoll on the plains of Kildare. It was not a pretty sight and a very pretty sight, if one knows what I mean. It was more than a pretty sight in terms of the balance of payments.

The good news is that Mr. Ridley Scott learnt recently from his daughter, who shot a small film here last year, that the climate has been made conducive to film making again. Mr. Scott wanted to know if the tax regime would remain as it is. If it does, he wants to shoot a series on William Marshall, a 12th-century knight, that would fill the gap left by the Tudors, which series is about to finish. The project involves an investment over a minimum of four years. It is there for the taking and certainty and dynamism will seal the deal and many more like it. I wish the committee the best of luck with its endeavours.

I thank the delegates, who delivered a most powerful message in their inimitable way. The last message, on the film industry, is very important for us to take on board. The delegates are speaking to a very receptive, cross-party audience. I call on Deputy Olivia Mitchell.

I welcome the great and the good from the arts world. It is great to see them all present and defending the arts at this difficult time for everybody. I congratulate Mr. Gleeson and Mr. McCann, whose book I have just finished. It is not often that we see Hollywood come to Leinster House but I suspect Mr. McCann's book may well end up in Hollywood, which would be nice. I have no doubt the book, which is great and clever, will be a great success.

Given all our success, it is not surprising that Farmleigh came to the rescue of the arts in a very vocal way. It was interesting that it was not artists who came to the defence of the arts and arts funding but the business community. When the Celtic tiger died, the only news coming out of Ireland for a while was coming from the arts world. There is no doubt but that it is the artists who open doors for the Irish. Anybody selling anything is introduced to the world by the artists. Therefore, what the arts do for the country is wonderful. One reason the delegates are present is the recommendations of Mr. Colm McCarthy. Perhaps we can expect an economist not to be always alert to the intrinsic benefits of the arts, but one would expect an economist to be alert to their economic benefits. Artists provide advertising that money cannot buy for Ireland. They remind the world that, although the Celtic tiger may be dead, the creative people that made it possible are still alive and well and thriving. Commentators refer to the recovery being built on the smart economy. However, we must note the smart economy that is to drive recovery is built on the intellectual and creative capital of a country.

I repeat the Chairman's sentiments that the delegates are pushing an open door in talking to the members of the committee. I do not want to speak for everybody but can certainly speak for Fine Gael and state the points made must be borne in mind. The retention of a film board is essential. The marketing of Ireland by the Irish Film Board is important and what Culture Ireland does to market Ireland is vital.

Maintaining funding for individual artists and artists' organisations is essential. The structure must be kept in place. Although funding may not be as high as in the past, we should at least keep the structures in place so we will be ready to drive the recovery when it occurs.

I am supposed to ask questions. The Chairman is wondering when I will do so.

I ask Deputy Mitchell to be as brief as our guests were.

Yes. To be honest, the guests have answered nearly all our questions.

I want to address some comments to Ms Pat Moylan and Ms Mary Cloake. There is no doubt but that the level of funding will be lower. It is a question of trying to maintain it at a certain level as best we can. There has been some comment on dipping into next year's funds, which I am not criticising because I realise it is desperately difficult when one's budget is cut half way through the year and the money is already half spent.

The touring strategy, which is very important within Ireland, is not so much based on the question of more money but on sweating the asset we have. What do Ms Moylan and Ms Cloake believe they absolutely must fund? Is it the individual artist or the organisations? How will they set priorities for the coming year if, as we suspect, the year will be difficult in terms of obtaining funding?

With the permission of our guests, I will take a number of questions and then ask the Arts Council delegates to respond. We will take questions for Theatre Forum Ireland after dealing with the Arts Council.

I call Deputy Ring, who can be slotted in for two or three minutes.

That is fine. I must leave presently to meet with representatives of an organisation, the IFA, that is currently in great difficulty. I am pleased to welcome Ms Moylan once again. When she was here earlier in the year, I raised several issues with her regarding funding for the west. It is good to see there has been some improvement in this regard and I hope the Arts Council will keep up its efforts in that area. I am anxious that rural areas should hold their fair share of available funding and that it should not all go to the cities.

I am delighted to see Mr. McCann at today's meeting. The reason he is such an excellent writer is that he started his career in County Mayo at the Connaught Telegraph. He is one of the best writers in the country and his latest book is excellent. I have no doubt he will go on to be one of our greatest artists. I am glad to see success has not changed him and that he is the very same guy he was back in the west. I wish him well for the future. I will tell the staff of the Connaught Telegraph he is doing well. Perhaps he will call in to see them the next time he is in Mayo because they are going through a difficult time and would be grateful for any support.

Fame has not changed Deputy Ring.

Mr. Gleeson may be interested to know that my favourite film is "The General". I watch it regularly and greatly enjoy his performance in it. He has done this country proud. My colleague, Deputy Mitchell, is correct that it would be the greatest single mistake we could ever make to cut back on funding for the arts. Last week, as part of the arts festival in Westport, I attended a screening of a film made by children with special needs. Those children would give Mr. Gleeson a good run for his money. That project was made possible by funding from the Arts Council, administered by Mayo County Council. Even in the bad old days of the 1980s and early 1990s, Mayo County Council and other local authorities throughout the State always put funding into the arts because there was an understanding of the importance of assisting people who required support at certain stages of their life. We must ensure that those who need support receive it rather than those who have no such need. However, that is merely a personal observation.

Theatre Forum Ireland is doing wonderful work. Those involved are not making much money but they are providing a valuable service by giving us something we all badly need, namely, a little brightness and cheer amid all the doom and gloom. Now more than ever we need some relief from economic realities. Colm McCarthy's recommendations in this area should be ignored; he merely did a job for the Government. It is for the political masters to make the decisions, and politicians, unlike economists, live in the real world. Economists make recommendations but it is politicians who must implement policy decisions. If I were making the decisions, I would leave the Arts Council funding in place but I would say to Ms Moylan that any wastage that can be cut out should be cut out. As Mr. Gleeson observed, there is enough bureaucracy in this country.

As I said, the focus must be on offering support to those who need it. Participation in the arts has given many people a new lease of life, particularly those living in isolated rural areas who do not have the same opportunities and ease of access as their counterparts in cities. This is particularly so for rural women, some of whom have no outlet for self-expression. There are wonderful people involved in the schemes operated by Mayo County Council and we in County Mayo are proud of what has been achieved. Even in the bad old days, the council always put some portion of what funding was available into the arts. We may be going through a difficult time economically but I hope the Government will offer support to the arts. The delegates have done this country proud. We are lucky to have them and must be careful not to lose them.

I welcome the delegates and thank them for their presentations. They are pushing an open door with this committee. It is inevitable in the current climate that there should be a focus on economics. It is easy to focus on the sums and equations to the exclusion of all else but it would be a shame to do so. The reality is that the economic benefits of the arts are important in their own right, even apart from any other values we might take from them. The economics stand up on their own. I agree with everything Mr. Gleeson said regarding the Irish Film Board. My colleague, Deputy Higgins, reinstated it in 1993 at which time 1,000 people were employed there, a number that has since increased to some 6,000. Even in employment terms that is extremely significant and the spin-off is very important for the State. If the board is amalgamated within Enterprise Ireland its effectiveness will be diluted. As I said recently in another context, it will go in with the fish, meat, microchips and whatever else. It needs that unique stand-alone capacity in order to deliver for the country.

From what Mr. McCann said, if we are to retain our traditional great friendships with all our European partners, it is very important that there be support for the arts. He made the point that the French think we are wonderful and the Germans believe we are their best friend. Much of that is down to Irish culture, whether film, writing and so on. From all those perspectives there is a value to the arts that cannot be measured in economic terms, although there are tangible economic benefits. In order to defend the patch, so to speak, we will have to make the economic as well as cultural case. Given current economic conditions, it is inevitable that every Department will be tackled in one way or another. In what areas does Ms Moylan envisage that cuts will be imposed on the Arts Council? Can administration be tightened up in any way, for example? Have the delegates any proposals on how the knife should be applied?

Ms Moylan used the word "elitist". There are elite aspects to everything, including sport, for example, and it is very important that we ensure small theatre companies, less well known artists and so on are given the wherewithal to develop their talents. Will the delegates comment on how that can be done?

I welcome the delegates. It is my understanding that funding for the Arts Council was already reduced in last year's budget even before the latest proposed cuts. It would be regrettable to go further down that road. I strongly support the points made by Mr. Gleeson regarding the Irish Film Board. It has done excellent work under the aegis of various Ministers. Deputy Higgins was mentioned in regard to "Braveheart". I heard a recent radio discussion where reference was made to the access people had to the Department when he was Minister. To return to a situation where the arts portfolio is not assigned to a senior Minister would be a seriously retrograde step and would put us in a unique position within the European Union. We must guard against such a development.

I have been critical of some aspects of the work of the Arts Council, particularly in respect of its approach to the regions. For instance, there is a perception that festivals and cultural events taking place along the western seaboard are not supported as they should be. Most of the organisations we have discussed are based in Dublin. I understand the Irish Film Board had an office in Galway but I do not know whether it is still open. I would like the Arts Council to continue to examine that.

I am very familiar with the work of Druid Theatre Company and the great Macnas parade that takes place during the arts festival. There has been support for Druid in bringing the Synge plays to the Aran Islands, New York and so on. I hope that support will continue as Druid has done great work in that area.

To summarise the main points, it is important to fund the Arts Council and to retain the Irish Film Board as an independent body. I cannot envisage it being subsumed into IDA Ireland or Enterprise Ireland. That is one of the McCarthy recommendations and I am not interested in that. It is important that a senior Minister retains the arts portfolio. Culture Ireland, which has been established only in recent years, has done great work and I would like to see that continue. Ms Moylan might indicate if the commitment to arts and culture in the regions remains.

I am delighted to be in the presence of some of my heroes. I have been a bookseller all my adult life. I have put Mr. McCann's books up on shelves. I have opened new boxes of books, smelled the print, put them up on shelves, set up small displays, whether to do with the Booker, the Nobel or the IMPAC prize. Booksellers do a great deal to promote authors, playwrights and people who appear in television series. It is wonderful to see Mr. McCann sitting across from me today having sold, I hope, thousands of copies of his books in a previous life.

I do not need to ask the representatives any questions because I know what we must do. We must protect the money. As a Government Deputy and the Green Party spokesperson on the arts I know we will have to make very difficult decisions but the water cooler moments in my life are when we can do something really beneficial. Ms Moylan is right. It makes strong business and economic sense to protect the cultural life of our country, particularly in deeply recessionary times. We will not be found wanting in that regard.

I remember reading Struwwelpeter when I was quite young on the cover of which was a picture of a man with a big scissors cutting off the thumbs of little Johnny. The McCarthy report is that man, the big snipper. The snips will come but unless we have a vibrant arts sector and a key Ministry in arts, the arts will be diminished. We need that clear, articulate voice to protect the arts, whether it is the performing arts, visual arts, writers, poets or actors. We are a people who have contributed greatly to the arts through the centuries, and we must find that money somewhere in the black hole we are in to support the work of all the representatives.

We are bucking the trend in Carlow. We recently opened an €18 million visual arts centre in very tough times. These hands of mine voted for that at Carlow County Council when I was a councillor and now, as an elected TD for Carlow-Kilkenny, we want to push out the scene for arts not just in the Dublin area, as Deputy Michael Kitt said, but throughout the provinces and in my rural constituency. We will have a George Bernard Shaw international summer school in Carlow. That was my idea and we are going ahead with it because when we are faced with these tough financial times we must buck the trend, find the money and do what is right. I will not be found wanting in that regard.

I thank Deputy White for being brief.

I welcome the delegation. If Deputy Ring was laying claim to Colum McCann, as a north Dublin TD I might lay claim to Brendan Gleeson as a northsider. I congratulate all the representatives but particularly Brendan Gleeson, who has had fantastic success. For whatever reason "The General", in which he plays the tough guy, is my favourite film.

Reference was made to an bord snip nua and the conference held in Farmleigh. Everyone here is pushing that open door. The Minister, Deputy Cullen, came to the defence of the arts yet some of the media crucified him because he had a different view from Colm McCarthy. The McCarthy report is like an e0 la carte menu. If there are five dishes on the menu when we go into a restaurant, we do not have to eat them all. We have only to select one main dish and one dessert or whatever. The same applies to an bord snip nua. Mr. McCarthy has identified €5.5 billion or €6 billion of savings but that does not mean the Government has to agree with every one of them. It picks and chooses, and I hope that common sense will prevail in respect of other areas, particularly in regard to the arts. It is probably fair to say that the value of the arts is unknown to many people. Deputy Upton used the word “elitism” but there is a problem of elitism in terms of certain artists, particularly in the Irish cultural area. People are not putting forward a strong case.

In terms of the revenue, for example, "The Tudors" is being filmed in my area at Swords Castle, on which Fingal County Council along with FÁS have done a fantastic job of restoration, but people did not know about that until they read a snippet about it in the Fingal Independent. That filming generates revenue in the locality. There is one big hotel and one small one in Swords and a number of the people involved in the filming were staying in the big hotel. If I had not been in the hotel talking to the manager I would not have learned that some of the people involved in “The Tudors” were staying in the hotel. That should be promoted more widely. People should know the added value in terms of film-making.

I agree with the other speakers that to abolish the Irish Film Board would be ludicrous. I mean no disrespect to Ms Moylan, but she must win the PR battle in terms of outlining the cultural reasons Ireland should promote its arts like the French, the Italians or whoever. She has a job to do in terms of selling that message. She told us earlier about all the revenue that derives from cultural activities. Ms Cloake and Ms Moylan need to go into overdrive to get that message across because when the Government has to make hard choices in December, many members of the public will not be on board. They must win that battle.

In terms of commercial sponsorship, in the context of potential Government cuts there may be avenues the representatives should explore now more than ever.

There was radio coverage today of the decision to relocate the Abbey Theatre to the GPO under the programme for Government. This is a fantastic idea and I hope that will be completed by 2016. Do the witnesses have a view on that and, if so, they might tell the nation?

Along with my colleagues I am delighted to welcome the representatives and to hear their views on this issue. I echo some of the sentiments of my colleagues, particularly Deputy Ring's comments about economists. I will not repeat what he said but I agree fully with him. I also agree with what my colleague, Deputy Kennedy, said about the McCarthy report. I was one of those people who hollered loudly when I saw the Minister, Deputy Cullen, say at the conference in Farmleigh that he wanted to protect the arts. It makes no economic sense to cut funding in an area that is giving such a return for so little investment.

I can appreciate that because the first show in which I was involved as a young child, a fact I often cite as it had a major influence on my life, was The Royal Jester. I can remember being part of that show and the first time I went to the theatre. That led to my involvement in Tops of the Town and other shows as well as music both on and off stage. I have had the opportunity to serve on the board of my local theatre, St. Michael’s in New Ross. I have been a strong advocate of the arts in Wexford County Council. I have a unique understanding, having been at the coalface, of what is involved in running theatres and appreciate the impact of the investment of small amounts of money on a community.

I run the JFK Dunbrody Festival in New Ross every year. Next year will be the festival's tenth year. We spend €100,000 on that festival and it generates a minimum of €3 million for that €100,000 payout. There is no other area in which one would get that level of return on such an investment. I understand fully where the representatives are coming from in that regard.

New Ross now has six festivals, some of which are relatively new, having been run for the past few years. The New Ross Piano Festival generates a huge return. We also have the Nollaig Festival, which is run in conjunction with the local traders to generate income for them and the commercial sector, while linking it in with the arts. It takes place during a season of great festive cheer and activity. We have the New Ross Drama Festival and the AIMS Choral Festival. Those six festivals generate a huge return to our town. There is a buy-in from everybody in the area in terms of what we are trying to achieve in that regard.

I spent last Sunday morning in St. Michael's Theatre in New Ross. I will be there next Friday morning, Saturday evening and Sunday night. I will be at the Wexford Opera Festival, if I can get a pair, next Wednesday night. The point I am making is that the arts are now a huge part of our lives. In terms of our local community groups, young people are currently putting the show "Fame" together. They are doing that themselves and putting their own time and effort into it. There is nothing better than having 50 young people in a theatre because they encourage their grannies, parents, cousins, brothers and sisters to buy into the process and for a small amount of money a great deal of excitement and enjoyment is generated.

As Deputy Ring said in respect of the press, when a Government TD attacks the McCarthy report, he or she should be supported because that report is about putting forward the options, on which we should have a debate.

The money we spend on the arts is incalculable in terms of the value of the marketing overseas done by people like Mr. Gleeson. What value can we put on that? I refer to Mr. Gabriel Byrne and U2 and we can look to every sector. Rather than Irish artists thanking us we should be down on our knees thanking them and saying, "Well done, this is fantastic and we want to continue to support you".

Mr. Gleeson spoke about "In Bruges". I did not enjoy that film. I did not think it was a good one. Mr. Gleeson has been involved in much better films. As he spoke about the 30% increase in tourism in Bruges as a result of that film, I began to think of a film for him, which could be titled "In New Ross", from where I come. I wrote down "In New Ross" and he then went on to talk about——

Is it a "shithole"?

Absolutely not. He got serious and went on to mention William Marshall and my smile widened because William Marshall founded New Ross in 1208. We celebrated 800 years of the history of the town last year. I have a town that could be the subject of a film — New Ross — and William Marshall has strong links with the town. We launched our Ros Tapestry, which is our new tourist attraction, in the past 12 months. I suggest everybody should come to see it because it depicts the story of William and Isabel Marshall and the founding of New Ross. We have many attractions that are of huge benefit to us but my bottom line is that, as a Government backbencher, I will fight to protect and increase the funding that goes to arts because such funding is a stimulus. It is not a negative. It as an opportunity at this time when many other things have disappeared in terms of jobs and other ways of financing our economy. The arts and theatres are an opportunity to generate more income for us. I promise to do my best for the witnesses.

I feel I am presiding over a love-in in terms of the arts.

It is all about New Ross.

Mr. McCann spoke eloquently about the formation of legislation and equally it can be seen how much in tune our members are in that regard. I want to bring this part of our meeting to a close. I apologise for forgetting to call Deputy O'Mahony.

I will be brief. I compliment the delegation for their commitment and passion. From having listened to Mr. Gleeson and Mr. McCann, it is clear that this is not just a job for them, rather it is a commitment and a passion. I thank them for that.

With regard to the regional support by the Arts Council, as was said earlier, there is an open door of support from here but the dilemma is that it is accepted there will be some cutbacks and difficult decisions to be made at Cabinet level in terms of the budget and so on. Similar decisions will have to be made at Arts Council level as are being made at Cabinet level to support the regions. Those who will follow in the footsteps of Mr. Gleeson and Mr. McCann may be found in Castlebar, Ballina or the smaller art centres. Can the council reiterate its commitment to the arts in the regions?

Incidentally, the big advantage the stars, the Olympic champions of Hollywood or Broadway, have is that when they win titles they do not have to undergo a drug test. They will not fail and we do not have to wait in suspense.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I had a blood test two days ago.

Before I invite the witnesses to respond to the many comments and questions raised, to which they can feel free to give a scatter-gun response, I wish to ask them three questions. The first one relates to doing things in a new way and being creative in the current circumstances. We are all here to fight the cause but, as some of the members said, we may have to examine different ways of doing things. I thought of one area we might examine, on which I would welcome the witnesses' views. The artists' exemption from income tax is an important measure. It is part of who we are and the reason we are respected internationally. We must protect that, but in many ways it is irrelevant from the point of view of a struggling artist, of whom there are many. Do the witnesses consider it might be worth considering introducing a tax relief scheme for people who might contribute to struggling artists? The 1997 legislation provides for tax relief on contributions to charities and non-governmental organisations involved in the developing world. Is there a case for introducing a tax relief scheme at a less generous rate for companies, corporations or individuals who would financially support developing artists who are trying to write their first novel, produce their first album or whatever. I believe it would be worth considering in the context of examining new ways of doing things. I put forward that suggestion to whoever would like to respond to it.

Second, music is an area of the arts on which we have not touched as much as other areas in our contributions. This may be a question for Ms Moylan or Ms Cloake. Canada is very good at supporting contemporary music in the pop-rock genre. The Arts Council is very supportive of classical music, as in the case of Wexford Opera Festival, which I also support, and experimental music, but is there a case to be made for examining the Canadian model of supporting young bands looking to tour, for rehearsal space or to go abroad to play at festivals, etc.? It is an interesting model to examine.

Reference was made to the conference held at Farmleigh, which was significant. Mr. Dermot Desmond suggested at that conference that we should have a national university for performing arts. In terms of the bigger picture, it is an area we should examine. This committee might do some exploratory work on examining that idea because it would fit very well with our reputation in the arts. I would like to hear the witnesses' views on Mr. Desmond's idea. I would like to invite him to come before this committee in the near future to explore that idea further. Perhaps it is an issue this committee could consider. Those are my three questions. Ms Moylan might share out the questions and comments among the witnesses for response.

Ms Pay Moylan

I will try. I will start off. Deputy Kennedy spoke about promoting the arts and culture. A thought I had during the discussion was that we should get Deputy Seán Connick to come onto our team to promote the arts if he would promote them in the same way as he promotes his own town, which he does extremely well.

I am very cheap.

Ms Pay Moylan

Deputy Ring spoke about the doom and gloom. Oscar Wilde said: "We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars". Let us continue to look at the stars and hopefully reach them.

I will return to the serious business of the questions Deputy Mitchell asked, one of which related to our priorities. We have three key priorities and a number of other priorities, which I will not term smaller as one cannot have a smaller priority, but there are a number of issues we are considering. The key priorities are to protect key organisations, to look after individual artists and to look at the regional infrastructure, including touring. In response to the Deputies who inquired about the regional distribution of Arts Council funding, one of our policies for next year would probably cover that.

A question was asked about funding for small theatre companies and other organisations in their infancy. Will Ms Cloake respond? She has had an easy ride thus far.

Ms Mary Cloake

Returning to Deputy Mitchell's point about sweating assets, one of our key motifs over the next year will be extending the life of cultural products. In other words, we have invested many human and financial resources into making the very best works of art and we are investigating how we can achieve the maximum value from our investment. Why, for example, put on a show for three weeks in Dublin instead of touring it around the country for 26 weeks? Why hold an exhibition which is attended by 300 people when it could be shown to 3,000? One of the key initiatives we plan to take over the coming years will be increasing audiences in a time of tighter funding. For the information of members, next week an initiative called "take your seat" will be launched whereby all participating theatres will offer free tickets to future shows to people who book during that week. It is a simple idea for making better use of the activities being conducted at present. That theme will underpin our entire budget strategy next year.

I cannot let Deputy Ring's comment pass without giving an accolade to Mayo County Council's commitment to the arts. I recall discussions held by the council 15 years ago on the isolation of women in rural society. It took active leadership to raise that issue and the council's imaginative use of the arts to deal with social issues is an example to all of us.

Deputy Upton raised an important question regarding the 6,000 people who work in film. People are inclined to dismiss the economics of the arts but €65 million of the Arts Council's €73 million is returned the Exchequer in tax. There is no easy answer to the Deputy's question on where we see the cuts being made but if the McCarthy report or the proposals to reduce our budget by €8 million are implemented, 100 of the 360 organisations we fund annually will have their funding withdrawn. There is no easy solution because the sums simply do not add up. It is an appalling vista given that we spent 25 years building up the physical and human infrastructure in the arts. There is no further room for economies because arts organisations and individuals are already living on a knife edge.

I thought the western seaboard was doing very well if one counts Druid, Macnas and all the wonderful festivals that take place in the region. It is one of the most vibrant parts of the entire country. Spiddal will benefit from a new film.

Some of the local authorities might be in contact with Ms Cloake.

Ms Mary Cloake

It is a vibrant place.

With a reduced budget one must do things differently. We are actively considering ways in which value for money can be achieved through, for example, sharing administration, services and marketing. One of the proposals that arose from the Farmleigh forum was an offer of free mentoring for arts organisations in marketing, promotion and business processes. Even though the money might not be available, we should still be able to draw upon sponsorship in kind because there is considerable expertise in the private sector which is not being utilised at present.

Ms Pat Moylan

I want to talk about the possible tax exemption mentioned by the Chairman. We would welcome with open arms the opportunity to encourage people to put money into the arts. In regard to the question on universities, we are knocking on Dermot Desmond's door.

Ms Mary Cloake

We also have a policy on popular music which we can implement if we get the money.

The Chairman should be the first signing.

Ms Mary Cloake

It is important that departmental responsibility for the arts is maintained. Having a Minister at the Cabinet table is a real acknowledgement of the value of the arts.

Mr. Gleeson and Mr. McCann may wish to make their concluding remarks before I call Deputy Higgins. We will also hear from Theatre Forum Ireland but we must let Deputy Higgins speak in light of the contribution he has made to the arts over the years.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

In terms of sponsorship, money is dragged from all over the place to make films. It is an issue which can be actively pursued and innovation is obviously needed in the current economic climate. Tax incentives can play an instrumental role. It does not bother me that actors were not exempt from tax because I am glad to pay. However, there are a large number of young actors in the profession, including my two sons, as well as directors and writers who are struggling at the lowest rung of the ladder. The French embrace their artists and this enriches their cultural life. I would love the committee to consider a tax incentive so that if, for example, a young kid gets one job in two years he or she is not liable for tax. The same applies in respect of young directors. Dearbhla Walsh came home with an Emmy and "The Tudors" was discussed earlier. These successes came about because Irish directors were consistently employed. Incentives would free people at particular stages of their careers from the terror of tax. This significant and innovative step could be taken at no specific cost to the Exchequer.

Mr. Colum McCann

Tax relief for corporate and private philanthropists is a tremendous idea. In the United States a significant amount of money for the arts comes from private individuals, much of which is on the basis of tax relief.

I am really encouraged by listening here. I came from New York today. I would have swum the ocean to get here. It is really important. I really appreciate the chance to speak. All I really want to say is it is our voice but it is an everywhere voice, and let us keep it.

I thank the delegates. It has been great having them. It has been inspirational. Their contributions have been powerful. It is appropriate that we ask Deputy Michael D. Higgins to speak and then we will hear from Theatre Forum.

I was not expecting it, but I thank the Chairman. I have been next door at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and that is the reason I have not been able to be here before now. I appreciate being present, even for a little while, at this discourse. As the meeting is only at the half-way stage, I will be brief so that the committee can get on with the rest of its business.

When I had the honour to be Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht between 1993 and 1997, it was all about having an equal among the 15. Up to that point matters which were called the arts were dealt with in the Department of the Taoiseach or dealt with by a Minister of State. It was always important that the person who would speak for this particular part of our life would do so as an equal with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or any other Minister.

In a way if I was doing it all again I would not have this long title at all. I would have simply called it the Department for culture. It could have handled everything. It was also useful when I was President of the Council of Culture Ministers in 1996 at a European level because one could engage with this vague debate about the tapestry that is European cultures when one was a Minister for culture, but one kept having all of these tags dragged after you as to this and that.

I have a problem about the word "arts" and, therefore, I will speak only for myself now that I am my party's spokesperson on foreign affairs. I like to speak about culture and I see the cultural rights as an aspect of citizenship. The cultural space, I argued in my time, was wider than the economic space. If the economy fails and cannot offer one a job, for example, it does not mean you must lose your rights of access to all of the arts, including dance and film. For that reason, one should see it all within a citizenship model, with a cultural space wider than the economic space.

That also meant, secondly, that one should not speak of provision for any of these areas out of a residuum of economic growth. One should do so because it was necessary in the same way as clean water or anything like that. There were matters to which I never got which I had in embryo. What it would have meant, for example, even if there was much worse unemployment than there is now at 400,000, was that every child was able to play a musical instrument and was able to swim. There were two aspects of their lives to which they would recover in the same way as the gift of being able to read if one was poor. I see this differently.

The last point I would make only as a suggestion is that it is incredibly important that some kind of war among the poor is not set off in which one would have one sector fighting with another for the diminishing crumbs that are falling from the table of the people who will not call provision for the arts bread.

The other part of it is that one always has three different elements. One has, for example, the list of the cheerful good things that are there. We have a kind of reputational wealth that has been given by writers, actors, poets and musicians that is almost untouchable. It is a kind of sovereign wealth that cannot be dragged down. The people who are in this community, from whom the committee is hearing today, should come in as people who have kept the light shining when others put it out. In a way, that kind of reputational capital is immense. Slash and burn techniques towards different forms of artistic expression should not only be resisted because they are poorly informed, but also because of the importance of protecting creativity.

There is a side to this which I was always trying to balance. For example, 15% of films that are finished go into successful commercial distribution because of a mixture of commerce and monopoly, but what about the other 85%? The act of making film itself — employing, if one goes over a budget of €1 million, approximately 50 skills — is something so rich in employment creation but also something that people want to do. It is a relationship of the human body, imagination and intelligence with the technology, science, etc. These all are things one should be doing anyway. The arts have an importance that is only in a minor way judged by their marketability but is about their essential nature for us as human beings, and that is the lift of the whole thing. That is why people should look down their noses with outrage at those who are attacking the arts and state that it is the one area which they neglected all the years, but which worked internationally and got recognition. That is why I hope there will be widespread national and European opposition to the latest philistinism.

I thank Deputy Higgins for summing the situation up so well. We could put Michael on either side of this delegation. I thank Ms Moylan and her delegation.

Another delegation will join us shortly. As I stated earlier, I want to assure the delegations that the committee will write to the Minister for Finance on foot of this meeting in advance of the budget to emphasise the significance of the cultural and economic importance of the arts and culture. I presume the committee is in agreement to do so.

I ask Fiach Mac Conghail, director of the Abbey Theatre, the national theatre, Ms Garry Hynes, director of the Druid Theatre Company, and author and playwright Mr. Sebastian Barry, who have been listening to this discussion, to join us for their presentation. They represent Theatre Forum Ireland. As they have heard all of the formalities about privilege previously, I will not repeat them. I welcome them and thank them for their patience. Obviously, they have been listening. One suggestion I considered earlier was putting the delegations together, but in a way it is good that we have Fiach, Garry and Sebastian representing Theatre Forum Ireland.

Perhaps Fiach could start the proceedings. He has done this previously. They all have been involved in this before. We would like to hear from Fiach, Garry and Sebastian and then, as before, we will follow the same procedure of questions and answers and comments.

Mr. Fiach Mac Conghail

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee, both Senators and Deputies, for inviting us to speak. There is a momentum happening whereby all of us here, Theatre Forum and the National Campaign for the Arts and individual artists, are in support. It is not only ourselves. This is happening across the country. This is not a Dublin-centric organisation. We are supporting the work of the Arts Council in trying to ensure that it retains the budget that has been given for this year so that we can move forward next year and try to resolve all of the issues.

I have many hats on this afternoon. I am director of the Abbey Theatre, Ireland's national theatre. I am also a proud board member of Theatre Forum, which is the representative body of the performing arts in Ireland, and also a founding member of the National Campaign for the Arts.

The National Campaign for the Arts is a broad and inclusive coalition that reflects the scale, reach and diversity of the arts in Ireland today. Its membership has a national reach that includes major festivals, venues, producers and representative organisations and individual artists in all art forms — the visual arts, theatre, film, dance, music, literature, architecture and the collaborative arts. We represent arts workers who live and work in all of the constituencies throughout Ireland. We are here on behalf of 20,000 citizens who work in the arts, or the culture industry, as Deputy Higgins said; this does not include our audiences, listeners or readers. It is important to point out that we acknowledge the tough times we are in. Our political leaders, business community, citizens and artists are all in the same recessionary boat trying to grapple our way out. Our artistic communities are well used to this hardship and struggle to keep making work and a living. Whenever there is a slight downturn, we receive the first cut and the first accusation that we are not contributing or working towards a just and fair society.

I have worked in this area for the last 22 years, both at home and abroad. I have worked with all major national State agencies, including the IDA, Enterprise Ireland, Tourism Ireland, Bord Bia, Fáilte Ireland, the Arts Council, the Irish Film Board, Culture Ireland, many Irish diplomatic missions across the globe and many Departments. I worked with the Chairman on a successful culture programme in Hanover in 2000. One thing that is sure and real and deliverable is that Irish artists have never let the country down.

During the summer we watched the narrative and philosophy of our republic unfold in the form of the McCarthy report, the report of the Commission on Taxation and the Farmleigh report which was published yesterday. The McCarthy report did the citizens of Ireland a service. We have to face cuts and a decrease in public expenditure, but we should make sure it has a purpose and that our citizens understand, although they may not accept, the greater purpose. We have political leaders across all parties who have courage, wisdom and vision and this is the time to act. We need to place a vision of this republic across the McCarthy report. This is a society, not an economy; this is a republic, not a corporation.

Since long before the term was invented, the arts have been our greatest creative industry. Today the arts brilliantly foster those attributes so important to the smart economy that is vital to our future well-being. Lateral thinking, big ideas, resourcefulness and invention, problem solving, vision and originality find full expression in the output of Irish artists and their work percolates every walk of Irish life. Our artistic community is a nerve that flexes the muscle of the creative economy. This message has come out loud and clear from Farmleigh and the business community. T. K. Whitaker understood it, as do Denis O'Brien and Dermot Desmond. We are here to relay this message to Deputies and Senators and will not be found wanting in our contribution to and participation in the national recovery.

With regard to the smart economy, the European Commission has ranked Ireland 13th out of 29 European countries in terms of turnover in creative industries. The growth rate of the creative sector in Ireland has been well above the European average, indicating the importance of creative industries for overall Irish economic performance. Our business leaders and politicians are beginning to realise this.

My colleague Ms Hynes made an eloquent point about cultural tourism. There is a reason tourists come to Ireland and it is not the weather. They are compelled to come here, dispersing billions in our local economies in the process, because of our culture. Cultural tourism is a genuine growth industry in Ireland and just as with our landscape and heritage, the arts have a starring role in how we give our visitors a unique cultural experience, from our mighty international festivals of the performing arts to our vivid traditional music. Long before they arrive, it is our writers, film-makers and touring performers who whet their appetites. Fáilte Ireland states cultural tourism is worth about €5.1 billion a year to the economy. It represents the only part of the market that is growing and has real potential for further growth.

The arts have a value in Irish society — not just an economic value but a social one. To evoke the spirit of Horace Plunkett and the co-operative movement, ní neart go cur le chéile. Culture and the creative sector generate 170,000 jobs, a significant number of them in the arts. Among them are practitioners, technicians, producers, curators, publishers and other highly skilled disciplines that work together to create art from Ireland. It is an indigenous industry, active in every county and region; we are wholly Irish owned and exporters. Our earnings are not repatriated and we are spending locally. The number of jobs dependent on the cultural and creative sectors combined in 2008 was 170,000, which represents 8.7% of all employment in the economy. I could go on, but I will not because our colleagues in the Arts Council made this point eloquently.

Every day on the world's cinema screens, bookshelves, concert stages and in theatres Irish artists are our perpetual trade mission, defending and redeeming our global reputation at a time when it is under the most rigorous scrutiny and offering the most spirited riposte to the perception of a nation under duress. Our poets and artists are active citizens and played a crucial part in the foundation of the Republic. We are also here to help national recovery.

The National Campaign for the Arts asserts the fundamental importance of the arts to economic recovery and calls for the retention of Culture Ireland and the Irish Film Board, the maintenance of existing levels of funding to the Arts Council, and the retention of the artists' income tax exemption scheme. Finally and crucially, we need a senior ministry representing the arts at the Cabinet table, as we have had for the last 18 years and of which we should be proud.

Ms Garry Hynes

I echo the remarks of Mr. Mac Conghail. In appearing before the committee today, for which privilege I thank the committee, I am not appearing just as a theatre producer and director and not just as a proud member of the arts community, but fundamentally as an Irish citizen. When I began my career more than 35 years ago with the founding of the Druid Theatre Company in Galway in 1975, it was not just our instinct to make theatre — our vision as theatre artists, such as it was at that young age — the driving force was the notion of making theatre as part of the community from which we came in Galway in the west. It is the driving force of my life as an artist, as I know it is for my colleagues. This needs to be said, as there is an implication in the McCarthy report — although I know I am speaking to people who understand my point of view — that the arts are all right when things are going well — they are the icing on the cake — but not necessarily a priority in the bad times.

In the context in which I work I am only too well aware of how the arts play their role as an agent of social cohesion within various communities. It is at a time when these communities are being torn apart by unemployment and financial difficulties that it seems the arts are needed more than ever. The Druid Theatre Company has in the last 30 years toured to more than 100 communities in Ireland and I know from my experience of performing in small towns and cities that we do not just provide one, two or three nights' entertainment or escapism but are welcomed into communities and have the privilege of becoming part of them for a period of time. One of the most difficult challenges facing a company such as the Druid Theatre Company or any company touring in these communities is to balance the great need and appetite these communities have for the arts with the scarce resources we have to provide them. In the last ten years there has been extraordinary development in terms of the building of arts centres and theatres throughout the community. It would be a terrible tragedy if the continuing scarcity of resources were to affect theatres, arts exhibitions and music performance. Already these centres which were built at great cost are sources of great pride for their communities. It would be extraordinary if they were to go dark because there is insufficient money to fund events.

With regard to touring abroad, this has taken place in the last five or six years, particularly in the last three with the help of Culture Ireland. Mr. Mac Conghail has made the comment that our artists have never let us down. That is extraordinarily true. It is only when one goes into communities abroad that one sees the welcome one is given, not just by the audience or the Irish diaspora but by those people who are charged with doing the business of Ireland abroad. One sees their welcome and the need they have for the flag for Ireland to be flown by our cultural enterprises. Mr. McCann said earlier that every country he visits feels it is our particular friend. I think that is true. The knowledge of Ireland abroad is far greater because people have heard our stories, have heard and read our poets, have seen our performances and have heard our music. We can under estimate the value of arts abroad to a significant level, not just in terms of the income the arts generate through tourism for the country, but in terms of under estimating how this makes Ireland, a very small country, a very big player on the global stage.

The achievement of Culture Ireland over the past three or four years has been phenomenal in terms of — I hate to use the American phrase, but I will — "the bang for the buck". With a very small amount of money, it has managed to reap huge rewards. I would point out that Culture Ireland depends on the art being there in the first place to be able to tour. The Arts Council is the engine behind the creation of that art in the first place. It is very easy to be aware when one looks at the Abbey Theatre, the Gate Theatre, Druid, Pan Pan or Rough Magic that those organisations are being funded by the Arts Council. I know committee members are all aware of that. However, it is our job to remind people who attend a small book launch, art opening or music performance in a small community that these too have been somehow or another funded by the Arts Council.

Financial organisations and companies face bankruptcy, but it would be the most extraordinary act of spiritual bankruptcy if this country, which is celebrated worldwide for its culture, were to disband, even in these terrible times, the Department of Culture, as Deputy Michael D. Higgins has so rightly called the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. There is a soundbite among the profession currently which goes, "The arts do not know what a recession means, because they are always in a recession." That is true. One of the strongest arguments in favour of maintaining support to the arts is to look at the amount of money spent on the arts here in the context of the spend in all other areas. We should observe how crucial the arts are to our sense of self worth as citizens and our economy and make the decisions accordingly.

Mr. Sebastian Barry

It is a great joy and a strange responsibility to be here. I am an Irish citizen and a creature of this place. I live locally in Ireland because there is no other way to live in Ireland. One of the beauties of Ireland is that we are always local abroad. We were never an imperial power and never had designs on other nations. We are a local place.

We have had significant numbers of great artists in Ireland and Irish governance has been generous to the arts. A few years ago after doing a reading in Philadelphia with Colm Tóibín and John Banville I was asked how I felt about my country. Without thinking about it, and being as cynical as the next man, I said I loved my country. The reason I do is not just that the calf returns to where it got the milk, but that as a writing person who has been writing in Ireland for 31 years and as a father of three children, the structures quietly and brilliantly put in place here over the years support artists and meet our needs as the various parts of our careers unfold.

When I was a very young writer on my own, it did not matter so much if I had no money. I started to write in 1977 and for the first 11 years I did not have three halfpence to rub together. In 1982, I received an Arts Council grant, which felt like being cheered wildly from the sideline. In 1988, the Abbey Theatre put on a play of mine, "Boss Grady's Boys". This meant that for a while my wife Ali did not need to conceal herself under the bed when the rent lady came around. She hid, not because she disliked the rent lady or because the rent lady was fierce, but because she liked her and hated disappointing her every week. Suddenly, this mysterious thing called money was available to support this equally mysterious thing I was doing, writing a play. We have had some wonderful times since.

In 1995, when a play of mine entitled "The Steward of Christendom" was performed, it made some money. Because this money was tax free, we, with our two children, had the opportunity after all those years to buy a house. Nothing was put in our way to prevent us doing that. The issue with regard to the arts is that it is not just about the person producing the art. In Ireland, strange as it may seem, my generation has the glory of bringing up our families from the contents of our minds. The Government has put provisions in place that make this possible. Ireland is not admired abroad because of sentimental or nostalgic reasons, but because our governance has contributed to an enormous achievement. People have been thinking about what it is to have artists. They have been thinking of the fact this country was first dreamed up in the minds of artists living locally in the 1900s and that we have continued to try and dream the country. Our dreaming has been met by very practical steps.

One of the things that hurt me as an individual living in Wicklow was to read in the McCarthy report that "art would happen anyway" whether funded or not. I found this a sort of ferocious little libel on the life of the artist. I immediately thought of Patrick Kavanagh wandering out into Pembroke Road to borrow sixpence to put in the gas meter or buy a glass of whiskey. He was never quite sure what he should be doing. That is how he lived, despite the fact that he was a great man. He did not have the support of the State. Since 1969, with the institution of the artists' tax exemption, mysterious things have occurred. In that sense, this country has met the original dream. Great structures have been heroically put in place by both Government and agencies of Government such as the Arts Council.

I do not think it would be a tragedy to get rid of these supports but it would be the end of our country. We would need to change the country's name and call it something else, perhaps McCarthyland. It will not be the Ireland of which I am a citizen.

It cannot be put better than that. I thank Mr. Barry, Ms Hynes and Mr. Mac Conghail for their contributions. We will now go round the table again as members may want to ask further questions.

I am sorry this presentation was so late in the afternoon. I welcome our guests, particularly Mr. Barry. I am a big fan of his work. It was interesting to hear him talk about his life. I thought he was an overnight success, but I now realise he only became an overnight success after 30 years.

It is great to see this group here. Mr. Mac Conghail said that Mr. McCarthy had done some good in that his report galvanised support and engendered a sense of urgency among artists about the need to sustain the funding. It struck me after the presentation by the previous delegation that we are, perhaps, being somewhat fatalistic in assuming there will be cuts or in saying there must be cuts. We seem to forget on one hand that there have been deep cuts already to funding to the Arts Council, but we must be conscious that if cuts go beyond a certain level what is left will not leave a sustainable sector.

Ms Hynes mentioned that arts venues around the country now see an increasing number of dark nights with doors closed and places becoming run down. What we hoped arts funding would provide in the regions can generally not be provided any longer. Everybody has talked about the regions and nobody ever talks about Dublin, as if it is not a region at all. Like artists, Dubliners are meant to look after themselves.

When one looks at the arts budget in the context of the total Government budget, it is very small, and when looking at the return it gives, the budget is tiny. Instead of being fatalistic and accepting that there will be cuts, we must be more demanding and say that the arts have already been cut and they are doing good work for Ireland. Around the world, especially in the financial markets, Ireland is regarded as the bad boy of Europe but the arts speak well of us in the world and more than ever we need someone to speak for us. The argument for the arts is well made.

I welcome the delegation and thank the witnesses for the presentation. I said before when Alan Stanford appeared before us, I almost feel we should applaud because the presentation is always extremely good, very easy to listen to, very clear and passionate. Some of that passion must be transferred to us so we can defend the arts as well.

It is crucial we retain a Minister at Cabinet with responsibility for arts, otherwise we will lose our voice at the Cabinet table. It is so easy for someone like McCarthy to come along with his scissors and snip off whichever Department he decides to cut. Unfortunately, if it is the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism we will not have the same clout at Cabinet. We have the same relative importance and rights as every other Department and portfolio, although I use the word "relative" because there are Departments such as Social and Family Affairs and Health and Children that are crucial in terms of the amounts of money that go into them. We must lay down a marker and support them in every way we can.

Both Deputy Michael D. Higgins and Ms Garry Hynes made the point that we are a society and not an economy. While we can measure economic value, we must look beyond that and recognise that there are values that cannot be counted in euros that are so important to us as a country and a culture that if we lose sight of them, we are denying the next generation a huge amount of what we have benefited from. Those who have worked for years to become an overnight success, as Mr. Sebastian Barry said, have struggled hard to make the arts so beneficial.

I will just mention my most recent visit to the Civic Theatre in Tallaght where I saw "The Dead School". It was a fabulous night and I would advise everyone to read the book and to go to see the play.

We are having a lovely afternoon here with some of the luminaries of the arts world and away from the gloom of the recession. We hear their voices clearly and we know what to do. We must do our best for the arts in Ireland. It will be a tough budget but we must be remembered as a Government for what we do for the arts rather than for what we shy away from. Everyone in this room wants to do their best for the witnesses in difficult times.

I welcome the group. I support the point about the necessity of there being a senior Minister for arts and culture. If we are writing to maintain the existing level of funding for the Arts Council, we should specifically include the retention of a Minister at Cabinet level.

The Druid Theatre is doing great work and Ms Garry Hynes mentioned touring, both overseas and to the Aran Islands. I do not know as much about the Abbey Theatre and touring. Could we get some information about that?

I thank the delegation for a very eloquent presentation, I enjoyed listening to it. There have been cuts in funding but the witnesses know how the system works. In rural theatres, the Arts Council gives €30,000 and then a percentage is given by county councils. I am concerned about that because county councils will not have access to the same level of funding. What will happen there? The leverage of funding has been used and it is a matter of great concern. As a member of the board of St. Michael's Theatre, I saw that if we got X from the Arts Council, the local authority would give Y, a set percentage. What will happen now?

I welcome the group. I asked the previous delegation about sponsorship. For most sports arenas now, sponsorship is the norm. We will be visiting the redeveloped stadium in Lansdowne Road soon. It is now called the Aviva Stadium. Has the delegation considered for the relocation of the Abbey Theatre that a corporate group would be invited in?

Is it encouraging to hear from Mr. Sebastian Barry that we get some things right in the world of politics. We are going through a rough time collectively at present.

Mr. Fiach Mac Conghail

I thank the committee for the patience shown to us. This is a crucible of democracy that artists and poets helped to create. It is great that we have discussions, and it should continue, not just in clinics and constituency offices but in the chambers of Irish democracy. I welcome this discourse.

Deputy Kitt mentioned touring. The Abbey Theatre cannot call itself a national theatre without touring. We have just come through a major restructuring programme and now we are ready to tour nationally. Touring is required now more than ever in terms of support for infrastructure throughout the country. We made a radical proposal to the Arts Council about the Abbey touring over the next few years. We have a play currently by Mark O'Rowe, "Terminus", which has just finished a successful run in Melbourne which was funded by Culture Ireland. The company is now flying home and will open in Belfast for a week, followed by runs in Longford and Galway. Last year there was a very successful tour of "The Seafarer" which went to Cork, Letterkenny and Galway. We are truly committed because if we do not tour, we cannot justify the Abbey Theatre's position as the national theatre.

Deputy Kennedy asked about corporate sponsorship. It was interesting to hear Dermot Desmond and Denis O'Brien talking at Farmleigh about the importance of culture. It is payback time. It is time for the business community to step up and support one of the only aspects of Irish society that has been celebrated abroad. The Abbey Theatre, because we are the national theatre, has a full-time fund-raising department and we have had many good soundings from the business community regarding its willingness to support us. We share the language of entrepreneurs and business people. We are risk takers and we know the odds. We know our customers very well and we can support them through customer support and follow through. What we could look at is some sort of tax incentive in that the business community could support us on a sustainable level. The pressure needs to be taken off the Arts Council in terms of supporting all, or certainly a significant proportion, of the funding of the Abbey Theatre. We would look to the business community, our patrons and our audiences to support us. We have something very good and very healthy to offer.

Ms Garry Hynes

In regard to the question of sponsorship by the county councils, I am happy to report that as of last night, Galway County Council, which has supported Druid for a very long time, has confirmed that its funding for us for next year will stay at €30,000 and that there has not been a drop. That is an extraordinary achievement by Galway County Council and it makes me very proud that Druid is part of Galway and that something like that would happen.

I am very aware of how knowledgeable members are but the fundamental point is that the arts are still under funded. The director of the Arts Council, Mary Cloake, pointed to this as well. Even before these terrible economic reversals were visited upon us, the arts were under funded. When one talks about reductions in terms of percentages, one risks pulling everything apart.

I will give members a simple fact which they should know, and this is not just to make the case for Druid but for the arts generally. Druid was founded in 1975, 35 years ago, in a completely different economic climate. In 1976, we were given a grant of £500 by the Arts Council, and that is the reason Druid is still here today. I cannot tell members what that meant at the time and the validation it gave. Some 35 years later, Druid's grant from the Arts Council is €930,000. That is 15 years short half a century in which the company has been celebrated and has been consistent in its achievement and in its performances in this country and abroad. I say that not to make a special plea on behalf of Druid, because this is not the forum in which to make that, but as an indication of the low level of funding for all our achievements here.

In the case of the Abbey Theatre, we know the achievement of having an institution which celebrated its centenary several years ago and which is one of the most culturally famous institutions globally. However, we must remember a consistent level of finance is required. Any cuts now will be incredibly dangerous. The impact of the cuts will go far beyond the amount of them.

Mr. Sebastian Barry

Other Departments were mentioned. Sometimes we are not quite sure what the word "arts" means. There is no Department in which it does not exist. The Department of Health and Children and the Department of Finance engender the arts in one way or another. Art, at its finest, gives people, or citizens, reasons to live. They will say they are glad they lived long enough to see, read or experience something. As Deputy Higgins said, that is a resource. That is a form of wealth. Perhaps it is invisible to an accountant but it is an enormous bank of wealth which needs to be revelled in, protected and exalted, especially in these times. If one has something, a huge system, which creates reasons for happiness and reasons for a citizen to be happy to be alive, surely that is the greatest good a republic can achieve.

That was well summed up. I thank Mr. Fiach MacConghail, Ms Garry Hynes and Mr. Sebastian Barry for being here. As they know, this is a public forum. As Mr. MacConghail and others said, it is important we are aware that we are not only speaking to each other and to the Oireachtas but that we are speaking to a wider audience. These proceedings are broadcast publicly and, thankfully, interested members of the media are present.

On foot of these presentations, I propose to write to the Minister for Finance on behalf of the committee, refer to the fact that we had this lengthy meeting, which has been a great privilege for me to chair as the new Chairman, name the representatives of the Arts Council and Theatre Forum Ireland who attended and state that they made very powerful presentations on the need to preserve funding for the arts. The letter will contain greater detail but that will be the broad thrust of the message. I will also refer to the fact that the artists and authors referred to their own experiences to support the campaign. They gave their life stories, which were a significant part of the presentations, in support of the call not to reduce arts funding further. As mentioned by a number of members, we should note that arts funding has already been reduced substantially. The committee should say to the Minister that it strongly supports the submission made by the Arts Council and Theatre Forum Ireland and ask that the current level of funding for the arts be maintained in the forthcoming budget. We will draft a letter along those lines if members are agreeable to that.

I thank Mr. Fiach MacConghail, Ms Garry Hynes and Mr. Sebastian Barry. I hope this will not be a waste of our time. As Chairman, I am determined to ensure it is not.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.50 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 4 November 2009.
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