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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Dec 2009

Sustaining Community Development: Discussion.

I welcome the witnesses from the three organisations appearing before the joint committee. I welcome the following: Ms Siobhán O'Donoghue, chairperson of the Community Workers Co-operative, and also director of the Migrants Centre of Ireland; Ms Ann Irwin, national co-ordinator; Mr. Chris McInerney, programme specialist, sustainable rural redevelopment department in the Tipperary institute; and Ms Anastasia Crickley, convenor of the community sector sub-group and also head of applied social studies, National University of Ireland, Maynooth.

I also welcome Mr. Viv Sadd, Ms Siobhan McLaughlin, Ms Helen Flanagan and Ms Cathleen O'Neill who are representatives of various regional development forums on the National Community Development Forum. From Pobal, I welcome Mr. Denis Leamy, chief executive, Mr. Jerry Murphy, programme manager, for revitalising areas by planning investment and development, RAPID, and the local development social inclusion programme, LDSIP, and Ms Danielle Byrne, programme manager for the community services programme, CSP, and the rural social scheme, RSS.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We will begin by hearing the opening statement of the Community Workers Co-operative, the National Community Development Forum and Pobal in that order, following with questions from members.

Having gone through a very difficult period, especially with the flooding in recent times, we are conscious of the challenges facing local communities which are an integral part of our society more so than in larger countries. Groups such as those appearing before the committee today are central to the communal outlook and provide essential services that can never be fully evaluated in monetary terms. As a public representative I am aware of this in my area. The groups connect people, allowing them to work for themselves and for the local common good. I am reminded of the old Irish concept of Meitheal, where neighbours come together to assist each other in achieving common goals of benefit to all. We have seen this in operation in the flooded parts of the country.

I know the groups have many concerns for the future in the current economic environment and I am keen to hear their views and suggestions on how the Government can facilitate in seeing these tough times through and in allowing the organisations to continue in the important work they are engaged in. I thank the groups for being here.

Ms Ann Irwin

Ba mhaith linn ár mbuíochas a ghabháil do chuile duine as ucht an deis a thabhairt dúinn teacht anseo agus cur i láthair a chur os bhur gcomhair. I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to address the joint committee on the theme of the challenges of sustaining community development in the present economic downturn.

It is important to say at the outset that the Community Workers Co-operative does not represent any particular programme or structure but facilitates, supports and enables quality community work. When we considered the theme of the challenges of sustaining community development in the present economic downturn, we looked at the verb "to sustain". What that immediately said to the group is that it is not about sustaining at the moment, it is about retrieving or trying to facilitate some way of enabling quality community work to happen at local level.

I will explain our understanding of community development or community work. We describe it as an activity composed of both a task and process. The task is the achievement of equality and social justice, and ending poverty. The process, which we think is just as important, is about empowering, enabling and supporting people to take decisions that affect their lives. We do that because we firmly believe that policies work best when they are informed by those that they affect. That is the main work of community development. Crucially, community development works with the most disadvantaged and the most marginalised people in communities, so we are not talking about community work per se but work targeted at the most disadvantaged and marginalised in Irish society.

We then look at the reasons that community development should be sustained in the current economic downturn, and what is its value. We looked at the effect that community development has at local level. Community development plays its part, particularly in times of recession because it facilitates those experiencing poverty and disadvantage to define their own needs. It provides an interface between those people and the State and it helps to identity innovative projects to solve situations that cannot be done by bigger statutory agencies. It also helps to prevent the emergence of anti-social behaviour.

There has been a great deal of talk recently about social capital. We say that community development is that which helps to bring social capital together. Community development has a really strong part to play and has played a part before in coming out of recession in the 1980s towards the 1990s. Community development was the activity that enabled the most disadvantaged to play their part in Ireland as it emerged out of that recession.

We will outline the impact of not sustaining community development. If our goal is cohesive societies and to keep social cohesion, we would say that community development, certainly for the most disadvantaged areas of society, is the glue that keeps those societies together. What one is left with if that glue is taken way is social breakdown in a lot of areas.

We then considered why, if what we are speaking about is sustaining community development, we are having this conversation? The reason for this is a number of recent developments in terms of community development in Ireland. A number of issues arise. We are a practical group of people and we know the country is suffering an economic crisis, that we are in recession and that cuts must be made. We know too that this recession is not the making of the people with whom we work but we are pragmatic and acknowledge that there are cuts coming.

We believe we can weather the cuts, difficult though that may be, if what we are left with is a structure that enables quality community work. Parallel with the proposed cuts are proposals that will have much more far-reaching and significant consequences for quality community work in Ireland, namely, a proposal to redesign community development in Ireland as we know it and a redesign of the structures that enable community development as we know it.

The first proposal relates to the ministerial announcement on 18 September that the two major programmes that enable community development at local level, the community development programme and the local development social inclusion programme — most members might know their local partnership companies — are to be integrated into what will become known as the local and community development programme. We have a number of concerns in this regard. One of our main arguments is that the community development programme and the local development social inclusion programme are worthwhile but different entities. It is not possible to merge the two without losing something fundamental and vital. For example, community development activity at local level is a distinct part of civil society. We believe that a good healthy democracy needs a good healthy civil society and community development enables that part of civil society that is directed at the most disadvantaged. It also enables those who have no other method of doing so to have their voice heard.

The proposal on the table is to merge that distinct part of civil society with an entity that is not part of civil society. The local development social inclusion programme and partnership companies are not part of civil society. International best practice suggests that civil society needs to be independent. Merging these two entities will have severe repercussions for the independence of community development at local level. We know that some rationalisation is inevitable. However, we believe there is a way of improving practice without compromising the key principles that make community development what it is. Those key principles include empowerment and, crucially, locally based decision-making. These organisations are managed and run by local people who have a say in how the organisation is run and in how projects are developed. In other words, they are there to identify their own needs and the ways to address them. In other words, there is an ownership of the projects and work.

In terms of the design, the Department has engaged an entity called the Centre for Effective Services to design a new programme. The Community Workers Co-operative has critiqued the design of the programme which has been robustly rejected by most people working in the sector. It has been rejected because it fails to understand what makes good quality community work work at local level. There is no understanding of this in the design with which we have been presented. We are currently faced with a fait accompli. That is how this is being presented to stakeholders. There was no consultation process with anybody in terms of the design of the new programme. It is crucial to state that the Centre for Effective Services is a new entity, established in 2008, which does not have an institutional track record or set of experiences or expertise in the design of programmes in the Irish context. It also failed to consult with those people who might have that knowledge and expertise. We have been presented with a fait accompli which we believe is not workable either in terms of its design or implementation structures.

As regards what will maintain quality community work in this time of economic crisis, there are four fundamental requirements. The principles of independence, autonomy, community-based and self-governing structures must remain central in terms of any change. Community development needs to be central to the design of any new programme. The new programme entitled, the local and community development programme, contains no proposals for community development. We believe that community development needs to remain central. The Community Workers Co-operative document, Towards Standards for Quality Community Work, launched last year by the Minister sets the benchmark for quality community work in Ireland. We work at an international level. While these standards are being adopted by different organisations all over Europe, they are not even mentioned in the design of a new programme in Ireland.

Funding needs to be ring-fenced at sustainably effective levels. We know there are cuts coming. We are a realistic group of people. We are asking that funding be ring-fenced at a realistic level from which we can grow once the economic upturn commences. We believe all proposed changes should be open, transparent and negotiated directly with the stakeholders, those who know what they are talking about given their long experience working in the area. We are suggesting a slight slow down in the process. We believe that people in the sector are pragmatic and are open to change. We also believe that changes and improvements in practice are absolutely necessary and that people are willing to make them happen. We believe that with proper consultation we can develop a programme that is workable, practical and operates within funding constraints. However, we need a little time to do this.

The bottom line for us is independence and autonomy to allow quality community work to work at local level.

I thank Ms Irwin for outlining her position in such a short time, which is very much appreciated.

Mr. Viv Sadd

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to attend this meeting to put forward the case of the National Community Development Forum. My name is Viv Sadd and I represent the south-west of Ireland, Cork and Kerry, and I am a member of the National Community Development Forum. I am accompanied by three colleagues, Ms Helen Flanagan, a voluntary manager-member from the mid-west, Ms Siobhan McLaughlin who is from the north west in Donegal, and Ms Cathleen O'Neill who is from the eastern region here in Dublin.

The National Community Development Forum is the umbrella forum for community development programmes, CDPs, around the country. I will contribute first following which my colleagues would like to make a contribution. We are delighted to be here today. We are passionate about what is happening and appreciate members' time and attention in terms of what we have to say to them. The CDP programme was established in 1990. It is a fabulous programme, a great initiative that is localised and works. There are more than 180 projects around the country. I will outline for the joint committee the work of these projects. They run a variety of programmes in local communities, including youth groups, child care groups, community centres and work with many target groups. They engage in a variety of areas in the community. Some CDPs are based in a distinct geographical area of disadvantage, others work with particular communities, such as Travellers or people with disabilities. Community development projects all operate out of a premises and cover all bases. What is distinct and unique about the CDP model is that it is run by local people in the community. Some might have small offices, others operate resource centres, community crèches or youth centres. All CDPs have an administrator and a project co-ordinator. I am a project co-ordinator and work in a building in the local community. The cornerstone of a CDP is that it is run by local people and that is what attracts people in the community to come in and participate.

Some CDPs have up to 60 staff. It costs approximately €100,000 for each CDP but it is an excellent conduit for bringing money into the community as it brings in more than twice the cost. Some bring in a great deal more than twice the cost. If agencies and other organisations are putting money into CDPs, everybody is participating and all the statutory bodies are contributing.

I hope members have a picture of what a CDP is like and now I will show how it differs from a partnership. A partnership is generally much bigger and comprises representatives from all the agencies, IBEC, VECs, the HSE and some community representation as well. The profile of a partnership is different from that of a CDP. The CDP works in the local community on local issues whereas partnerships deal with the broader issues such as enterprise creation and so on.

CDPs engage with the most marginalised people. Trust has been built up slowly over time in the local community and that enables CDPs to engage with those who are hardest to access. CDPs are flexible and build a personal relationship that supports the individual. The State agencies on their own were not able to do that and that is the reason that CDPs were initiated. The council or the HSE link into nearly every initiative taken by a CDP. We do not work in isolation.

The reason we have come before the joint committee is that it has come to our attention recently that the Minister wants to change things. He wants to close down a number of CDPs immediately in the next couple of weeks. An internal review is being conducted by the Department — we do not know the full details about how this is being done — with a view to closing down a number of CDPs. That is the first step. The remaining CDPs will be amalgamated, as Ms Irwin mentioned, and incorporated into partnership. The cornerstone of local voluntary management will be out of the picture and the city partnerships will become the managers of those programmes.

What are the reasons given by the Department for the proposed changes? One of the reasons given is to have a better system of evaluation so as to better demonstrate results. We have no problem in co-operating and linking in with a system of better evaluation and review procedures. All CDPs co-operated with the strategic planning, evaluation and knowledge, SPEAK, system, which was developed as a way of evaluating the CDPs. We acknowledge that the work of CDPs is difficult to evaluate, but the outcomes can be evaluated. We submit an annual report, reviews, evaluations and so on. It is not as if the Department does not have the information, but that it has not been able to convert that information into tangible results.

A second reason was to streamline services and ensure integration. The Minister is responsible for a few strands, including the drugs task forces, the partnerships and the CDPs. In an interview in the magazine Changing Ireland, the Minister expressed his concern about the need to ensure that the three strands, the drug task forces, the partnerships and the CDPs which operate in largely similar communities provide integrated services, without duplicating work. Obviously they have come up with a solution. My point is that we have been doing something for a number of years that does this already. We have social inclusion measure committees, which involve all the different agencies, the HSE, the council and so on that endorse the CDPs on an annual basis. CDPs are endorsed by the State agencies who ensure that the work is not being duplicated and that we are not competing.

I will hand over to Ms Helen Flanagan who is a volunteer on the board of management.

Ms Helen Flanagan

I am a volunteer, one of approximately 2,000 people who sit on voluntary boards of management of community development projects. We understand local issues because we live in these areas and work on local solutions. It is estimated that volunteers in CDPs give between five to 12 hours service a month and if that time is calculated at a mid rate per hour, it works out at €2.5 million per annum. The Department proposes that it is cost effective to remove voluntary boards of management. I wonder how it could be cost effective when it costs nothing.

We are expert in different areas because of the training we received in areas such as employment law, as we are employers and our projects are administered locally. The Department wishes to remove the burden from the volunteers. I and my 1,999 volunteer colleagues do not see it as a burden to volunteer and we have never said we see it as a burden. We are happy in what we do for our community. I do not want to be thanked for what I do and I do not want to see my picture in the newspaper. I get thanks enough when I see a local issue has been solved by local people and it is they who should get the kudos. A possible reason given in the McCarthy report as to why it stated CDPs were ineffective is that we in CDPs do not take the credit for the work we do. We give credit to the local people who solve the local issues.

The task force on active citizenship talked about enabling and empowering decision making as close to the citizen as possible. Community development projects do that. We allow it to happen. We must be kept local if we are to empower the most disadvantaged in our community.

Ms Siobhan McLaughlin

We, the National Community Development Forum, are asking for support for the current process to be slowed down so that attention can be paid to the fantastic work that is happening with disadvantaged communities all over the country from Malin Head to Cork, Galway to Dublin.We want this committee and others with decision-making powers to give care and attention to the issues of communities that have experienced high levels of disadvantage historically — which is increasing due to rising unemployment — so that the independent voluntary boards of management can continue to deal with issues of social justice, equality and poverty on the ground. We ask that partnership companies, the Department and CDPs come together with other experts in the area of community development, to negotiate how we go forward, in terms of the structural changes that are needed in the programme. With regard to the change recommended now, we are asking for that not to happen by Christmas this year but by Christmas 2010. This process must be slowed down now before it has a detrimental effect on the work of the community development sector.

Some of the other key recommendations we want this committee to take on board include the retention of the independent voluntary boards of management. We want these to be sustained and maintained because their contribution has been fantastic. They have provided expertise and space for individuals and families who have experienced poverty, such as members of the Traveller community. They have encouraged them to take on leadership roles, advocate on behalf of their community and develop strategies and plans with other State agencies to deal with issues. We need those committees retained so that this work can continue.

We also want the institutional knowledge, learning and expertise that has been developed in the community development sector over the past 19 years in the programme to be recognised. We should not throw the baby out with the bath water. We need respect for the learning acquired by the volunteers and professionals who have been doing the work on the ground. We also want respect in terms of the local participative democracy that has been developed in Ireland through the participation of the community development projects in local government. To dismantle the community development sector and projects as they exist, would dismantle participative democracy all over the country. For example, there are nine CDPs in my county and if they are removed, those involved will not be represented strategically in all the local government structures.

We are good value for money and we do fantastic work. Volunteers work for free and staff work for minimal wages in comparison with people working in other agencies and what they achieve between them is fantastic. We have developed great expertise. We are experts in company and employment law, in community development, child protection, youth work, employment legislation, developing employment services, developing training initiatives, FETAC, etc. The work and institutional learning and knowledge of community organisations must not be lost. We feel strongly it must be retained. It will be a travesty for communities throughout Ireland if any of these programmes is disbanded, dismantled or deconstructed.

One can never evaluate the fantastic work done by these community organisations. We constantly evaluate our work, but evaluations do not capture the amazing outcomes in terms of the achievements made in community development. I was glad the Chairman acknowledged that at the start of this meeting.

Our members want to talk about this fantastic resource and we have got a strong message of how important it is for us to get involved in retaining it. The CDPs are not afraid to change and become more efficient. This is very positive.

Ms Cathleen O’Neill

I want to endorse what my colleagues and the community workers co-op have done. I am delighted Mr. Jerry Murphy is here because one of my questions relates to what was said when the Minister called us all together in Croke Park last week where Seamus Jackson, on behalf of the Department, challenged us to come up with viable alternatives. However, the Department issued a document yesterday that completely withdraws that willingness to work with us on alternatives. Last Wednesday, it said it would be willing to work with us, but that separate independent structures would not be acceptable. There is no willingness to work together in that regard.

I would like to raise a question with regard to something we find even more sinister. We were told last Wednesday that we would have until the end of March to consider how to progress under the new structures. We were informed the funding for the first tranche periodic payment would be issued in January and we could then consider how to proceed. This new document, which was issued after 6 p.m. last night, indicates we are expected to sign up before Christmas to move forward. This leaves no chance for any negotiation, working out or tweaking of what will happen. On the conditions for funding for 2010, CDPs must sign up to the LDSIP and the implementation process before funding can be allocated.

This issue affects me personally, because Pobal grants funding to me for three after-school programmes the Kilbarrack children's centre runs for 97 children in the Kilbarrack CDP. Now I must sign up at the end of this year to something I do not understand and about which I am not clear in order to get the funding to bring those kids back into the programme in January. This makes no sense. I am very concerned about this because these are 97 kids from an extremely disadvantaged community, including new communities and the Traveller community. Quality work is being done on the programme. I cannot pay my staff the first week in January unless I sign up to this unknown process. I would like this issue clarified.

We told Seamus Jackson, the change expert, that we would consider what we could do. We have come up with a viable alternative. If he lets the CDPs and the LDSIPs work it out, we will do it. We are not averse to that. I thought he accepted that. We need the process slowed down for a year and we will do it. In doing it, we will save community development and partnership processes.

We have now completed the contributions from the National Community Development Forum. This committee is here to raise issues and is here to help in any way it can. Obviously, we will deal with the issues formally. I will now ask Mr. Leamy to speak and committee members can then contribute.

Mr. Denis Leamy

I thank the committee for this opportunity to address it on the issue of sustaining community development in the current economic downturn and to answer any questions it may have.

I will outline in brief the background to Pobal in order to set the perspective from which our views on this issue are informed. Pobal, formerly known as Area Development Management, was established in 1992, in similar economic circumstances to those of today, by the Irish Government, in agreement with the European Commission, to manage an EU grant for local development. The organisation is constituted as a company limited by guarantee and a registered charity. Members of the board give their time and work on a voluntary basis and are appointed by Government. Our main objective is the delivery and management of programmes on behalf of Government and the European Union, which promote social inclusion, reconciliation and equality through integrated social and economic development within communities. Pobal acts as an agent in the delivery of programmes within the policy framework and funding as determined by the Government.

In 2009, Pobal worked with 4,500 community groups and local agencies across the whole island through managing 16 programmes for seven Departments, various boards and the European Union. These included the Departments of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Health and Children, Transport, Education and Science, and Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the special EU programmes body and the Dormant Accounts Fund.

Our day-to-day work involves assessing grant applications, proposals and plans, managing contracts, distributing funding, monitoring progress and auditing beneficiaries. We provide good practice case studies, evaluations and demographic information that help Departments to make policy decisions. Through our work Pobal supports partnership approaches to planning and decision-making. We also promote good relationships between the community sector, State agencies and other stakeholders. Building and sustaining community capacity is a central focus of all our programmes. The policy context for our work is provided by the national social partnership agreements, the National Development Plan 2007-2016, Towards 2016, and the programme for Government. We are acutely aware of the dramatic shift in economic circumstances impacting Government and communities and its implications for all, including Pobal.

I mentioned earlier the core objective of Pobal as being the promotion of social inclusion, reconciliation and equality through integrated social and economic development. From our experience of managing programmes for Government and the European Union over the past 17 years, we see community development as central to the achievement of this objective. The reasons for this are as follows: community development values the experience and knowledge of disadvantaged communities and as a result leads to more relevant and effective responses to local need; it promotes the targeting of resources towards those most in need; it encourages more holistic responses to problems, because it recognises the interrelated nature of social, economic, cultural and environmental issues; and it mobilises individuals to use their energy and entrepreneurial skills to the benefit of their communities.

Community development as an approach to economic and social development is not new. It has been adopted and espoused by the State since its foundation. Through the Muintir Na Tíre movement in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s, the State entered into a partnership with community organisations in funding locally identified projects, for which those organisations in turn provided the voluntary labour and resources. This work provided a range of bottom-up infrastructure and services to communities, including parish halls, group water schemes, sports clubs and vocational and leisure activities. In later years, community development evolved and adapted. In the 1980s the Government of the time built on earlier community work by introducing the community development programme to stimulate and support local capacity.

The challenges faced by the country in the early 1990s and the opportunities presented under the second round of Structural Funds prompted a focus on integrated social and economic development, particularly in disadvantaged communities. Central to this approach was the idea that development could be driven by communities themselves, acting in concert with statutory agencies, employers, farming organisations and trade unions. ADM, as it was then known, was often the vehicle used by the Government to drive this work. This model of support for communities has been the catalyst for rural transport projects, better child care provision, improved health care, local drugs task forces, the development of Traveller and migrant initiatives, and many other developments and responses. Community development is at the core of this work and central to the work of partnerships, RAPID area implementation teams, community services programme projects and others.

I want to give some examples. The community action centres in Limerick city provide a focal point for community development initiatives that directly meet the needs of the housing estates in these areas, which include Moyross, Southill, Our Lady of Lourdes, St. Mary's and St. Munchin's. They provide contact points whereby people can access education, training and employment and where they can develop projects that improve services to the areas.

In Taghmon in Wexford, Wexford Local Development supported the development of an area team that has assisted a range of community initiatives, ranging from child care provision to services and supports for Travellers.

Another example is from County Mayo. Community development is able to lay the foundation for local groups to develop into fully fledged community enterprises. The Lohan Park Group Home, located in Brickens, County Mayo, provides residential care and community services to older people in the local community, including meals on wheels, day care and laundry services.

The great strength of community development is that it emerges from communities. The State, it is fair to say, has invested heavily in it and it now offers us an important resource to draw upon in difficult times. It has provided the country with volunteers and skills which will be invaluable in coming years.

Given the current economic realities, it is neither desirable nor practicable for this work to stand still or depart from tried and tested practices and experiences. There will inevitably be less funding for new and existing community development activities. It is, therefore, crucial to ensure that available funding is targeted at those actions which are of most relevance.

Taking into account the need to achieve more with less and to ensure that community development will endure, I will highlight five points. First, facilitating community development has a proven ability to allow citizens to move closer to second-chance education and pathways into the labour market. An integrated approach within communities whereby there is close collaboration between labour market and community development interventions needs to be copperfastened. An example of this approach is found in Galway City Partnership, which has developed pathways to the labour market for lone parents that recognise and cater for the more complex child care and family needs associated with parenting.

The second point concerns addressing local needs while being efficient and accountable. The community and voluntary sector must be accountable to funders. The principle of accountable autonomy, articulated in recent times by NESC, facilitates a good working relationship where community groups can balance their commitments to the communities that they serve with full accountability to funders. Applying this principle offers the opportunity for needs to be met locally while responding to national policies and priorities. At the same time it maximises impact and minimises waste and duplication.

My third point is on volunteering. Due to the recession, there is now an opportunity to mobilise skilled volunteers who could support community activity and at the same time derive personal benefit from this involvement. This provides an opportunity to bolster existing work and re-examine our models of future service development.

The fourth point is on business and community. There is also an opportunity, building on cross-sector partnership working and examples of existing valuable actions, to encourage the business sector to support community projects. The range of skills and resources available from this source can add a valuable dimension to community development for the benefit of citizens.

My fifth point is on adding value by more effective targeting of resources. Opportunities to streamline planning and delivery of programmes and services at local and national level must be grasped. The community development sector and statutory bodies can collaborate to delineate more clearly their respective roles, responsibilities and actions. This would enable greater coherence of objectives and ensure that resources are more effectively targeted at the people and places that need them most. From this clarity follows the opportunity to change the culture and practice in regard to measuring the impact of programmes and initiatives, and to test their effectiveness and relevance.

I thank the Chairman and members of this committee for this opportunity. We will be happy to answer questions.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. We are all here to assist. I would like to believe this committee, which focuses on sport, arts and community affairs, is very much involved with the people doing the work on the ground. The public representatives present are very much in touch locally and nationally.

I welcome the witnesses. They are all very passionate and are certainly committed to the projects in which they are involved.

With regard to the recent report of an bord snip nua, Mr. McCarthy should have proposed closing down rural Ireland and forgetting about it completely. Maybe he wants to use us as snipes or something and shoot us. He certainly has no time for anything going on in rural Ireland. I believed he would make some positive recommendations. He wanted to get rid of the community development budget of €44 million, with which Fine Gael does not agree. He also wanted to get rid of rural transport and rural Garda stations. The reason all the community groups and bodies were set up in the 1990s was that all the State agencies had forgotten about rural Ireland. To put it simply, they just were not doing the job they were established for and that is why groups such as the ones represented today were set up.

Fine Gael is not saying everything is perfect. As a number of speakers have stated very well, the community groups are ready for change. Last week, Deputy Wall brought this matter to my attention. We requested a meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, because we heard the community groups had a meeting in Croke Park. We had a meeting with the Minister of State and were promised some correspondence from him on the proposals being made. Today, Ms Cathleen O'Neill stated she had a document in her hand. We believed we would have that document but did not get it. We are disappointed we do not know what is being proposed. The delegation is correct that the proposals were brought forward. Reference was made to March of next year but now there is talk of December. That is no way to treat any organisation or agency. The groups are doing a very good job. If there are problems, they must be worked out, as with any organisation. Ms Irwin made the point that certain cuts must be made.

Ms Flanagan is a volunteer. By God, it is very hard to get people volunteering at present. Over the past ten years, in particular, it has not been easy to recruit volunteers. Everybody was busy and working for himself or herself and under pressure in his or her daily life. People such as Ms Flanagan were operating voluntarily in my community and others. I cannot understand why the Minister wants to get rid of the voluntary sector in that volunteers are doing the job for nothing. They are the people who keep elected representatives informed on what is happening and who ask us to support or reject whatever they are doing.

It would be taking a step back in time for the Minister to go too fast, although we all realise cutbacks are necessary in these serious economic circumstances and that everybody is prepared to take a fair share of the burden. What the organisations want is a fair share. I ask the Minister for Finance to suspend for now the rules he wants to introduce and to sit down and negotiate. Fine Gael and every member of this committee sees the good work done in their constituencies in isolated and disadvantaged rural areas that would not be done by county councils or the HSE. Many agencies were too big and left the disadvantaged behind and forgot them. Bearing in mind that Ms Flanagan said she did not want her picture in the paper, county managers did not want to be in isolated rural areas where nothing was being achieved.

Over the past ten years, I have seen the quality of life change. Members in politics for a while will have seen the improvements in rural infrastructure and people's homes and child care. I have seen changes such as these that would not have occurred but for groups such as those present. I want to see this work continue and supported. I want the Traveller community to be supported. I do not want the people left on the margins to be forgotten.

Mr. McCarthy was given a job by the Government to identify where savings could be made. He was paid by the Government to deliver for it but ultimately Governments are elected by the people and must make political decisions. These will have to be made next week. The hearts of the Ministers, Deputies Ó Cuív and Curran, are in the right place but at the same time they should not undo the good work they have done. I hope they will suspend this process of having decisions made by December until March. More time is needed to consider the proposal. If they knew this was happening in the past several months, they should have tackled it.

It is unacceptable the delegation was told at Croke Park last week that one course would be pursued only to be told later that another course would be pursued. One would not do it with the unions or any other sector. I accept savings must be made but they have to be reasonable. I do not want to see them affect the voluntary community organisations. We saw what amalgamation did with the Health Service Executive. Processing the medical card for the over-70s has been taken away from local offices and is now dealt with by central government in Dublin. When one has a query about a medical card, one cannot get a reply and the officials claim they cannot cope with the workload.

What is already in place in this sector works. If changes need to be made, they should be done slowly in consultation with the sector.

I thank the groups for attending this important meeting as it is a week before the budget. What is happening to these various groups is an absolute and total disgrace. I listened with interest to Mr. Leamy. If one were outside the door listening in, one would imagine he is supportive of everything that has been said about volunteerism and the different groups and initiatives that emerge from community social conscience. He certainly does not seem to me to be a man who is part and parcel of these proposed changes but I understand he is a civil servant and must do what he is told.

I am deeply disappointed with the Minister of State, Deputy Curran. When Deputy Ring and I met him last week, he gave us an undertaking that he would give us the roll-out procedure for this process by yesterday. I informed some of the delegation that I would have it this morning. Alas, it never appeared. This backhand approach has created a sense of fear among these groups.

This is a disgrace because it undermines the trust we have in society and Parliament. If we are told by a Minister that he will give us information to pass on to people, the least he can do is honour his commitment. We are trying to negotiate the best deal possible for these groups. However, the bond between us has been undermined by this sleight of hand by the Minister of State, Deputy Curran.

It is not unusual that on such an important matter, every committee member from the Government side has left the meeting, apart from the Chairman. I do not wish to undermine his credibility and sincerity in this regard.

Bill Shankly once said football is not about life and death, it is more important than that. Similarly, this matter is not about politics, it is more important than that. It is about our communities and in these economic times it has never been more important. When the individual or the family suffers, who picks up the pieces? It is the volunteers about whom Ms Flanagan or Ms O'Neill speak, not someone in Dublin.

Volunteerism has joined communities across Ireland together in the programmes represented here. The people and the volunteers will not accept this proposal. The idea that the boards of management would be shoved to one side and act as consultants is an open insult to the people who initiated many of these schemes. What does that say to the people who have been the backbone of society in those communities over the years?

All the groups have worked in their communities at a cost to themselves and their families raising funds for their initiatives. A figure of €100,000 was mentioned when it can be high as €300,000. Some have raised the moneys for community centres. Now under this proposal they must sign it all over to the Government. Under these proposals it is unbelievable that those who raised money by collecting on the streets, running marathons, even dressing up as donkeys to draw a car along a street will not know where it goes. The moneys will be put into a major block with no method of underpinning it.

This proposal is just unbelievable. I could nearly scream with vexation at what will be done to this sector. It is underpinned by everything Mr. Leamy told the committee about volunteers, the work done and the creativity involved in many of the initiatives. That did not come from national level. It came from communities that wanted such initiatives in their local areas. I have always believed education is most important to the Traveller community and would put it on a par with ourselves. Last week a group of Travellers who had been educated moved into three-bedroom houses in Kildare. They now want to be part of and involved in their community.

I propose the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, attend the committee to explain this disgraceful decision. Like other members, I do not want to see waste but how can the Government come up with such a proposal and expect the voluntary community sector to agree to it? The proposal undermines its work and dedication over the past several years. Volunteers do not matter any more while the Government takes the funding.

This proposal must, as Deputy Ring said, be put on the backburner until it is resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Every member of the delegation accepts changes need to be made. However, they do not need this proposed effective committee – I have never heard such a name before. This will be a disaster for the very communities we serve.

In community activities, the volunteer is the most important person we have. We need volunteers more than ever in our current economic circumstances and we should not allow them to be shoved to one side until they are needed again in the future. I propose that we ask the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, to discuss the issue with this committee before he makes any changes.

The delegates will realise from members' comments that strong feelings are held across party lines on this issue. Some of my colleagues from the Government benches have had to leave the meeting but they hope to return presently. I support the calls for including community development groups in the decision making process. Historically, that was the way we did things in Ireland. As a Minister of State, I conducted my affairs on the basis of inclusion and involvement. Deputy Wall has summed up the argument and I do not want the committee to divide on it. On behalf of members, I will do my best to communicate Deputy Wall's message to the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, although I am unsure whether he will be available to meet the committee in the near future. I certainly will demand communication and involvement with community groups.

Ms Irwin spoke about the need to redesign structures and all the delegates have offered constructive proposals in this regard. The Minister of State needs to draw on these ideas to inform his decision making process. An bord snip nua will make different proposals but we, as politicians, have to implement them.

I support Deputy Wall's proposal, but with his indulgence, I would like to amend it to call on the Minister of State not to implement the merger of community development projects to the partnership boards or to discontinue any projects until a proper consultation process is undertaken with a view to designing a workable programme that can operate within funding constraints. He should come before this committee to discuss his proposals before making any decision. The amended proposal should be agreed by the committee. I hope we can reach unanimous agreement on it and if Government members are not present to oppose it, that is their decision.

I propose that we reach a formal decision on how to proceed at the conclusion of the meeting. I want to give other members the opportunity to contribute.

When a proposal is tabled, is it not customary to ask for a seconder?

With respect, I prefer to chair the meeting in an honourable and decent way which allows everybody to contribute and then bring together their views. We can make a proposal collectively at the end of the meeting. I hope that does not disappoint the Senator.

I thank the delegates for their presentations. Deputy Ring and I recently attended a meeting in Ballinrobe of community development workers. I was not previously aware of the depth and breadth of work done at community level. I was surprised to learn about the minimal amounts of money received by projects. The success of these projects comes from local volunteers and the leadership displayed by community workers. In light of their excellent value for money, it is disgraceful that they are being threatened. The delegates have expressed their willingness to make savings or enter consultations and I strongly support Deputy Wall's motion.

I come from a rural constituency. Communities can provide the supports that will help us survive this recession. Community development projects are at the centre of our communities, whether they be in the middle of cities or on remote islands.

Representatives of the community development sector put across a strong case on "Tonight with Vincent Browne" last week. If they can survive that programme, they can survive anything. I will support them all the way.

I welcome the delegates and commend them on their presentations. I am familiar with the excellent work being done by the nine community development projects in my county. One of the greatest achievements of community development nationwide has been to harness voluntary enthusiasm. If this work is to be curtailed during a serious economic recession, the most disadvantaged and vulnerable people will suffer and a greater burden will be placed on already overstretched statutory agencies. We need the contribution of community groups now more than ever.

The delegates are speaking to the converted at this committee. It is unacceptable that their work should be disrupted before we have an opportunity to put what we have heard today to those who are ultimately responsible for what the future holds. I shudder to think how rural areas would manage without the contribution of community development projects. I will support whatever resolution is passed today. I must leave now but I hope to return before the delegates leave.

I too am supposed to be where Deputy McGinley is going, so I will be brief. The Chairman has noted my proposal which I think is what the outcome of the meeting should be and I take his point that the matter will be agreed at the end of the meeting. We need to get a concrete outcome because as previous speakers have said, this should not be happening. We should not be getting rid of community development projects at this point. It is going against logic to suspend support for community development when never before has there been a greater need for community development.

I spoke in the Seanad a couple of nights ago about being a public representative and not having the skills to cope with people in their middle years who come into my constituency office in tears because of financial pressures they are under. The supports that were there in the past are no longer there for them. I deal with these situations as a public representative, but I do not have the skills of a person from the community development project who deals with it on a daily basis. The community development project programmes support those who are most vulnerable, isolated and falling through the cracks. The State agencies have not been there to support these people. The community development project workers have much better skills and as others have said, they are the experts in many fields. I find that the community development project is a great resource because it is a great signpost to assist us in our work in dealing with clients. It does not make sense to cut or suspend support for community development projects at this point. They had cuts to their budgets already last year, but to talk about cancelling projects is nonsense.

Deputy Wall was very eloquent on the idea of getting rid of that type of volunteerism. I am sure the Minister will retain it but in the future, it really will not mean what it means now. The projects are run by volunteers in the community for the community. All the projects are balanced very finely and there are wee things that might seem insignificant to those who draft legislation or a new scheme, but I know that when one pulls that thread, many other things will start to unravel. People decide to come in and take up opportunities organised by local volunteers. In other areas, the same opportunities may be provided by State agencies but the people will not go near them. It is the open and friendly face of a person in the community that entices people to access the community development project programmes. I reject what the Minister is doing.

The delegates made a fantastic presentation. While we might say that the system that the Government is proposing is the wrong system, there can be tweaking of any system, but I do not think the reform that is being proposed which is quite radical is the reform we need to be dealing with. There is an openness in the community development project system. The word "fairness" is the word we should continue to use time and time again in the run up to next week. The fair thing to do is to talk to the representatives of the thousands of people who have supported community development projects, who have done the work down through the years and who want to continue to do the work and get a model that is best suited to delivering on the needs of the community. That is what it is all about. Volunteers are not representing their own interests but the interests of the community as others have said. That is what Deputies and Senators are here to do as well. Consultation is the way forward. I must leave as I need to speak to another delegation.

I am not confining the length of time members may speak.

I thank the delegates for their presentation. I do not think I can follow the passionate speech of my colleague, Deputy Wall.

Everybody who has spoken from the community side has acknowledged his or her recognition of the different and changing economic times. I do not think anybody is in denial. There is also a mindset that reform might be worthwhile and there are ways and means of looking at things. My difficulty with the proposals on the table is the impossible timeframe for all the delegates to work with. The second is the lack of substantial consultation with the people on the ground doing the work on a daily basis. A third point was made by Ms O'Neill, when she stated she does not know where the money might come from to pay some of her staff if the process as now indicated were to go ahead. I do not think it is good enough that anybody is left in that situation. There is a horrible feeling of being in limbo and not knowing. What we need above all else is clarity. That clarity has to wait for a while to allow people the chance to consult and to talk to and see what would be acceptable and workable for all of the community workers and for all the people they serve. Because we are in a recession, all of the people I speak to on the ground tell me there is more of a need than ever for the type of work that is being done by community development projects. They will indicate there is potential for such things as an increase in crime. Whatever we do we must put in place a system that will help to protect and prevent that from happening.

I support Deputy Wall's proposals that we ask the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, to come back as soon as possible to open the discussion and find a way forward.

I thank the delegation for their contribution. I am not a member of the committee but I thank the committee for facilitating me in making a contribution. I am here for two simple reasons, first that my community is under attack and the reason I am a Deputy is because of the community sector. I left school before my 15th birthday and within a decade and a half had graduated from two third level institutions because of the community sector. I would attribute my education to my involvement in community programmes in adult education, particularly in the area of adult literacy.

I consider Deputy Jack Wall to be a more senior politician to me and usually I am the hot head and impassioned one and Deputy Wall is more measured. I will try to be measured because Deputy Wall's presentation has been impassioned and I do not think anybody could equal the level of passion that has been reflected by him.

It is groundhog day all over again. I remember being in communities like the Glen, Togher and Ballyphehane in the late 1980s. By the time I was 19 years old, my four friends were emigrating and by the age of 21, we had all emigrated. That economic situation is returning once again. The people of my generation know the PPS number off by heart, it was the tattoo of the generation. When people would come to my clinic, I would ask them their PPS number and they did not know it, because they had gone through 15 or 20 years, not having signed on for social welfare. Now when they come in on a Friday evening or a Saturday morning, they have their PPS tattooed into them. The rationale for setting up the community development projects and community programmes after the PESP programme of 1992 is now in place again. It beggars belief as to why we are dismantling something when the rationale and the necessity for it is as great as it has been for almost two decades.

The McCarthy report has brought us to where we are at. One can see the McCarthy report as a cost reduction exercise or as something else. I do not see it as a strategy.

In the context of this discussion, the McCarthy report has recommended the disbanding of an entire Department and the community development programmes have been caught in the crossfire. What is happening now is that a valuable asset and workload is being appropriated by another sector. I remember reading Paulo Freire books when I was in college, and he has described in his books what is happening here. The community development service is being appropriated by the State. This beggars belief. The key aspect to voluntary programmes is local ownership.

When I was studying adult education, Charles Handy and his books were our main focus. He is the topmost expert in the world on voluntary management, and he happens to be an Irishman. He talks about paid contracts and psychological contracts and points out the difference between them. If we pay people twice their wages, they will not work twice as hard, but if we give them ownership of the organisation, they will work morning, noon and night for it. What has happened in this case is that the psychological contract of voluntary work has been broken. It has been broken by the fact the Minister has not come to this meeting and it has been broken because the survival of an organisation in the statutory sector has now become paramount.

To be fair, the Minister was not invited to this meeting this afternoon.

Okay. The psychological contract is being broken because the survival mechanism of statutory and other agencies has now kicked in. The partnership is quite happy to take the work of community development workers on board because that justifies its existence. That is what is happening. Other organisations, such as Pobal, do not know where they stand in the mix and wonder whether the Department will survive the cutbacks recommended by McCarthy. I would put the question whether the community development sector would be better off in the Department of Social and Family Affairs where it could get away from this issue.

Ms Helen Flanagan

Yes.

That is something that should be considered. Perhaps we should forget about the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, and his brief. I am interested in survival of the community development projects. Would survival be better enshrined by removal from this Department and committee if the projects were restructured and set up as part of the Department of Social and Family Affairs?

Ms. Helen Flanagan

That was their original home.

It goes without question that some restructuring must take place. However, it is essential the voluntary management committees stay in place. They are the only aspect of the structure that cost nothing, but they are being dismantled. However, unless the management committees are dismantled, none of the other changes can take place. The Department knows it cannot press ahead with the change unless it dismantles the voluntary management committees first.

I do not know whether the decision is a fait accompli, whether we are only going through the motions here or whether we can do anything to stop it. I am angry about the situation. It concerns my community and places such as the Ballyphehane CDP. I know these facilities and have drawn most of what I have learned from the sector. What is being presented makes neither economic nor community sense. These two things are not necessarily opposed to each other. One of the difficulties I had when I became a manager in the voluntary sector was trying to explain to people in the voluntary group that the work they were doing was accountable work that needed to be measured in accountable terms that could be understood by civil servants. They needed to move away from the more intangible descriptions of the work, like personal or human development, so that the work could be quantified. This was important because in terms of real politics such things must be measured.

I know that if the community development groups audited their services, we would see this happening. For example, any given CDP has its core funding, but that gives only a snapshot of what the CDP does. They have Traveller, literacy, women's and domestic violence support programmes and 101 other projects. If the structure, as it exists, is dismantled, those services will be lost because the structure of the partnership is not configured in a way that will facilitate this in the long term. There are different stakeholders. The partnership is a different process that is being set up for different reasons. The CDPs are being merged here as a matter of convenience and expedience. This is to do with structural survival. The CDPs should not believe what they are hearing, that this is for their betterment. It is not. They are being sold a pup.

I am not sure what action will result from this discussion. However, I suggest the Minister should come before the committee and that we put the case to him. We must try and slow down this process before it is too late. I do not want to let the cat out of the bag, but the five CDPs in Cork city were reviewed and have stood the test. I was told last week the accountability measures have proven themselves. I have also been led to believe the change is going to go ahead. However, I would back the CDP position that it must be slowed down. We must also ensure that no matter what the outcome is, the voluntary boards should remain in place.

Politicians are community workers also. We have a different role in the community to the community development workers, but it is our community that is being dismantled also. In the 1992 Programme for Economic and Social Progress, PESP, the agreement structure was started. I worked in a number of projects set up under that. It is now almost two decades beyond that and it would be a tragedy if these decades of community work were now cast aside because of the McCarthy report, a report commissioned by and assisted by every Department which has put this Department under threat. The community development workers are being taken out because of the threat to that Department.

I thank the Deputy. That concludes the contributions from Oireachtas Members. Does anybody from any of the organisations wish to make a concluding remark? We can allow time for some brief remarks.

Ms Anastasia Crickley

I find it hard to stay quiet. I have worked all my life in community development and in supporting marginalised communities here and elsewhere and have never seen the likes of what is happening to the people, the programmes and the funding initiatives involved in supporting community development in this country. The Chairman is aware, from the groundbreaking work for which he was responsible when he was Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development, of how important it is that decision making is as close as possible to the ground. He is also aware how important it is that the people who are most marginalised have a role in decision making so that the services, processes and what happens empowers them to play a full role in development at local and national levels. This is what these programmes have been struggling to do.

Nobody pretends this is being done brilliantly by everybody everywhere all the time. Nobody pretends there is not room for improvement. I share some concern with Deputy Lynch and hope we are not here after the horse has bolted. What people are urging the committee to do is to ensure there is time to think. This is not the time for us to divide the different funding mechanisms against one another. It is not the time for us to blame one sector or another. It is the time for us all to take the opportunity to sit down together. Communication has been made with only a few people on the surface by the Centre for Effective Services and nobody has been consulted in any way adequately or properly. A wide variety of the stakeholders involved have not been consulted.

The Chairman is correct in saying communication is essential. What is also essential is that there is time for genuine consultation where there will be understanding of what those here are saying. They are saying they are not fools. They know this country is facing one of the worst recessions it has ever faced. We are not going to get into the business of naming and blaming or the ifs, buts and whys of it. We know that is where we are and that is what we face. We know there are problems and that those problems are being faced by the communities, by marginalised people, Traveller groups, migrant groups and the women's groups with whom these people work. We know that is the case. Therefore, we must also struggle to ensure the existence of structures that can deliver and which delivered so well in the 1990s. I am one of the people who was involved in setting up what is now Pobal. I have been involved in community development projects all my life. In the 1990s, local projects and local people on the ground began to create the conditions that got us out of the recession enveloping the country and which was forcing so many young people to leave. I worked with these young people in other countries.

If one takes the power away from those at local level, the development to which I refer will not happen, as politicians are only too well aware from arguing for power themselves at local level. It is not a matter of consultation or communicating alone; it is about empowering local people. Everyone has said that time should be allowed for genuine consultation and participation by people most affected by the decision. We are asking for this not just for the sake of the projects and the people involved therewith but because it is fundamental to the future of the country and all the people marginalised within it. They deserve nothing less. I thank all the members who have spoken very much in this vein.

Time is of the essence. We have done our best and it is now the turn of the politicians, who ultimately have a say in how things are done. Supposedly we have been consulted – some of us have not – but it has not made any difference. There is a move to go right ahead at present. In saying this must stop, it is important for us not to throw the baby out with the bath water. A number of officials from various Departments have contributed very well to the processes being funded on the ground. We are not saying everybody is bad and wrong but we are turning to the members of the committee to ask them to ensure a fair chance will be given such that what we have not been able to do thus far may be done. This is to ensure the people Ms O’Neill empowered through her local group can continue to work as they have been doing into next year and that the Traveller and migrant groups with which my colleagues work and all the groups referred to will have the opportunity to continue.

It is not a case of saying change cannot take place. We are not even saying we will like some of the changes that occur but that there must be a process to facilitate change in an orderly fashion. That is no more than was made available to the banks, which cost the State a lot more money, or to a variety of developers, who cost a lot more money. Communities and the marginalised deserve no less. I commend the committee on the efforts it made in other times and we look forward to what it will do.

I thank Ms Crickley. My responsibility as Chairman goes beyond any partisan agenda and I can assure you that I will honour it. We have heard the strong views that have been aired across party lines by members. We are all trying to do the right thing. I am very much in agreement with Ms Crickley's concluding remarks.

We call on the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, to engage immediately with the community development forums to ensure any decisions on reorganisation will be made in the best interest of individuals and communities who benefit from community and voluntary work, bearing in mind that the delegation recognises the need for greater efficiency and change. I will word a motion at the end of the meeting with the agreement of the members.

We have a tight schedule if we consider budget day as a deadline. We will communicate with the delegates on behalf of the Minister of State and ask him to engage with them.

Ms Cathleen O’Neill

One thing we have illustrated today is our ability to engage in alliance building and to send out our message. I appeal to Pobal today because we did not even know it was in the picture until last Wednesday. We did not know there was another agent of change. Pobal can carry the message also. We need Pobal and it needs us. We are not giving our assets away because they belong to our communities.

That point was raised earlier by Ms O'Neill. Does Mr. Murphy wish to speak on it?

Mr. Jerry Murphy

Pobal was brought into this process after the proposals on the future of the programmes were developed. We were not party to that element of what is being discussed today. The role offered to us by the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is to support the implementation of a new programme as it is decided upon and rolled out.

Ms O'Neill asked two questions and I will respond to both. The first concerned whether funding for projects will be cut in January if the programme has not been signed up to. At present, the role of Pobal is to support one set of the projects proposed to be included in the new programme. I refer to the local development social inclusion measure, LDSIP, which people are familiar with through partnerships. We are currently responsible for the financial management of the projects. The task given to us is to take on, by the end of March, the financial management of both sides as the CDPs merge under the current proposals. The circular from the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is about the funding prior to our involvement so it is wholly within the remit of that Department. Pobal would not be playing a part in that regard. What the Department said on this is true.

There is more flexibility with regard to assets, irrespective of what happens in the new programme. The task given to Pobal in terms of implementing the programme will allow us to spend some time developing proposals as to how to define clearly the objective of the new programme and how it is to be achieved. Real flexibility would need to be shown regarding assets and there should be systems in place——

It is my understanding that Mr. Jackson told the people the assets would have to be transferred. This is a clear decision made by Mr. Jackson. The problem today is that the people were told the assets would have to be transferred irrespective of how they were procured. This is a considerable problem.

Mr. Jerry Murphy

With regard to the task given to us to implement the programme, we have raised this with the Department, including Mr. Jackson, and suggested that, instead of taking the approach outlined, much more flexibility could be shown. There should be a much greater ability to keep assets where they should be within the communities that paid for them and resourced them. We are absolutely committed to coming up with systems that enable that to happen.

He did not listen to you.

Mr. Jerry Murphy

We have spoken since then. The development of any new programme is very high on our list of necessary steps.

I thank the delegation for attending. That the committee has called on the Minister of State to engage directly with the community development forum will serve to clarify that matter. I am glad Ms O'Neill raised it and we have managed to obtain a response for her. That the Minister of State is to be asked to become involved, as we desire, will result in absolute clarity. Ms O'Neill is entitled to it.

Senator Buttimer has been very patient and has had to attend a number of votes while we were speaking. Deputy White had to attend a meeting and informed me she would return.

I apologise to the delegation and the members of the public for having to leave to attend votes. This is a very important topic. I am glad that, in my absence, we agreed to call on the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, to attend because it is imperative that he engage with us. Alliance building is what community is about, yet the Minister of State is not doing that. We need to have some questions answered.

(Interruptions).

Members please.

I am not going to be intimidated by that. I am a member of this committee and I am entitled to have respect shown to me when addressing it, despite what other people might think.

From my experience in local community development, when no community structure is in place, people will not be empowered.

What is Pobal's view on the recommendations in the report of an bord snip nua on enhancing community development? Will Mr. Leamy explain how collaboration and the delineation of respective roles and responsibilities will help in achieving added value by the more effective targeting of resources?

If the Minister insists there will have to be cuts, on what is the voluntary community sector willing to compromise? A strong community development project sector is required in every area. When I see the work it does in Ballyphehane, Togher and Mahon in Cork, it highlights the challenges unaddressed by the Government and its failures. The McCarthy report does not recognise the importance of volunteerism in society. Anyone who believes the removal of a voluntary board, immersed in its community and knowing its people, is a good idea is living in cloud cuckoo land.

The assets belong to the people in the community. Flexibility should be shown in this area. The body of local knowledge cannot be diluted by a ministerial report or a Minister's refusal to negotiate. The committee should reconvene before Christmas to discuss this matter with the Minister of State, Deputy Curran.

I was delighted to hear the various statements and passionate views on this matter. I have been very much involved with my local community development projects in Carlow. I have met many people from across the country in the run-up to this budget concerned about the cuts. I want them to know no deal has been done yet. There is still one week to go to the budget. An bord snip nua has made many recommendations. However, it is like the whole table d’hôte in a restaurant; one does not take all the dishes off the menu.

Some cuts will be painful. I believe the community development project sector should be protected with decisions taken at the most local of levels. Those working at this level have a wonderful insight into community which must not be lost. I am concerned if it goes into a partnership mode, the experience of working on the ground with local knowledge will be lost. These are tough times but we have to make sure that where the cuts are made they are fair. I will be lobbying at the Green Party's parliamentary party meeting this evening to protect these programmes. I am not sure we can but I will be using my voice to protect such initiatives.

Mr. Chris McInerney

The last time we discussed these kinds of issues was in East Timor many years ago. It is interesting that some of the same concerns are arising.

This is not a purely financial rationalisation issue. There is also an element to which this process is driven by someone's concern for administrative neatness. Basically, items that look vaguely alike can all be packaged together with the same result. There has been a certain tidying up of administration with the cohesion of local development entities such as Leader programmes and area-based partnerships. That is fine because they are in the local development sector. Community development projects are not. Administrative neatness answers Deputy O'Mahony's question as to why this process is being proposed.

However, community is not neat. It is diverse, disparate and gloriously messy from which comes great innovation and capacity to solve problems. There will be no efficiencies, no capacity to innovate or more effective delivery on the ground out of this administrative neatness. Everyone accepts we must ensure community development contributes to building the new society in Ireland. Financial rationalisation is not the only reason behind this proposal. The move towards administrative neatness should not be allowed to slip through in another guise.

Mr. Viv Sadd

As acting chairman of the national community development projects forum, I can tell Senator Buttimer that the foundation stone of the programme and its success is local people managing local projects. The retention of this core element is essential. Failure to have such a cornerstone was the reason other models were not successful in involving the most marginalised people.

Thankfully, this is a parliamentary democracy of which the committee process is a vital part. The fact the delegation is attending this meeting and is able to articulate its views is very important. I make no apologies for the length of this meeting. It is important the delegations had the opportunity to voice their concerns and hear the views of members from all parties.

The joint committee will call on the Minister of State to engage immediately in consultations with community development forums to ensure that any decision taken in regard to reorganisation of and funding for the sector is in the best interest of the individuals and communities that benefit from the work of these forums. We need to encourage the consultative process because that is the normal way we deal with such matters in this country. Members may wish to add that they recognise the need for efficiency and change in all organisations. Deputy Wall made a different proposal.

I am happy with the Chairman's statement but I want it to be repeated by the Minister of State before this committee.

The most important issue is to begin a dialogue sooner rather than later. I will communicate with the Minister of State tonight.

Ms Siobhan McLaughlin

The dialogue can be facilitated through national structures such as the Community Workers Co-Operative and the National Community Development Forum. These bodies can be convened at any time.

My second proposal is that we call on the Minister of State to come to this committee at the earliest opportunity to deal the issues raised. I consider that to be a suitable proposal.

Ms Anastasia Crickley

With all due respect, the Minister of State already claims to be acting in the best interest of communities. We would not be here if we believed we have already reached that point.

The witnesses want us to make a straightforward statement that consultations should commence.

Ms Siobhan McLaughlin

We need to defer the process.

Ms Helen Flanagan

The 31 December deadline ought to be removed.

That request will go to the Minister of State today. I thank the witnesses and members for their contributions to a long but useful discussion.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.13 p.m. and adjourned at 5.15 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 December 2009.
Barr
Roinn