Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Nov 2016

Public Service Broadcasting: Discussion

The joint committee decided to prioritise public service broadcasting as part of its work programme for 2016. The committee decided to review the current funding model for public service broadcasting to review the effect of advertising opt-out on Irish broadcasters and to consider other related broadcasting matters. The committee may also look at media ownership in Ireland. We are aware of the difficulties in the current television licensing system, of the very rapid changes in technology and of the reduction in funding through commercial revenues available to all Irish broadcasters. Although this is the first meeting in which the committee will consider public service broadcasting, we have engaged with the Minister on the funding of public service broadcasting. We received a letter from the Minister dated 31 October 2016 on this very issue.

Today, we are meeting officials from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment and from the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland. We plan to meet RTE and other stakeholders at later meetings. I welcome the following officials from the Department: Ms Patricia Cronin, assistant secretary, Mr. Éanna Ó Conghaile, principal officer, and Mr. Dualta O'Broin, assistant principal. I also welcome the following representatives from the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI: Mr. Michael O'Keeffe, chief executive, Ms Celene Craig, deputy CEO, and Mr. Diarmaid Breathnach, manager of public service broadcasting.

I propose that the two main witnesses will speak for five to ten minutes each, followed by a question and answer session in which members may ask questions not exceeding three minutes. Opening statements have been circulated. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I invite the first witness, Ms Patricia Cronin, assistant secretary, to give her opening statement.

Ms Patricia Cronin

I thank the Chairman for inviting us to participate in today's meeting. I hope today’s exchange will be of benefit to the committee members in their consideration of this important issue. I will make a brief opening statement and, following the contribution from the BAI, my colleagues and I will be happy to answer any questions from the members.

The Department’s appearance before the committee today is as a result of the appearance of the Minister, Deputy Naughten, before the committee on 21 September to discuss the Department’s Estimates. The Minister’s announcement that he would not be pursuing the introduction of a household broadcasting charge in the short term was discussed. The Minister noted the interest of the committee members in the future funding of public service media and how we define that media and indicated that he would welcome if the committee were to come forward with proposals on the issue. He also stated that the Department would facilitate the committee in any way in its consideration of these proposals.

Since then, the Minister has developed this view to take account of the need to have a wider conversation on the future of public service broadcasting. For example, what is it we want public service broadcasting to deliver? What do we want public service broadcasting to look like five years or ten years from now? The Minister is very clear that he has a statutory obligation in relation to RTE and TG4. However, while addressing the issues facing these broadcasters, he is clear that we must consider the needs of the sector as a whole. If the sector is to thrive, we need to take account of all aspects of broadcasting, including commercial broadcasting, community broadcasting and the rapidly developing and expanding digital sector. If consensus can be reached on what public service broadcasting should look like in the future, then it will be possible to start a discussion in earnest on how it is intended to fund it.

The Minister, Deputy Naughten, wrote to the Chairman of the committee on 31 October, setting out his views at a high level. In that letter the Minister said he fully recognises the important role that public service media plays in a democratic society and the need to ensure it is adequately resourced if it is to continue to deliver on its remit. The Minister fully recognises his obligations to our public service broadcasters but has asked the committee to consider the longer-term issues surrounding the future funding of public service broadcasting in detail.

I will briefly give a sense of the challenges facing the broadcasting sector. Internationally, the broadcasting sector has been subject to enormous change due to the growth of digital and online technologies, resulting in the development of new modes of delivery and new business models. As a result, traditional broadcasters, both public and commercial, are subject to increasing competition from large international players and new forms of content delivery and need to adapt rapidly to maintain their relevance, audience and commercial revenues.

The Irish broadcasting market faces the same challenges, as an ever-increasing number of non-Irish channels compete for audience share and advertising revenues. The increasing importance of online platforms and the use of handheld devices is further impacting on Irish broadcasters’ audiences, revenues and, in the case of public service broadcasters, licence fee revenues.

The Minister’s view is that Irish audiences need strong and independent public service media outlets that can hold their own in the face of increasing competition from international media and can continue to provide the Irish public with distinctive and high-quality indigenous programming that reflects our common experience and provides a much-needed Irish perspective on events and current affairs.

Discussions on longer-term issues like the future funding of public sector broadcasting and how such broadcasting is defined must not lose sight of one of the Minister's core beliefs, which is that the current public service broadcasters - RTE and TG4 - require a stable financial basis on which to operate as they face funding challenges. As I have said, the Minister has a statutory obligation in this respect and he fully intends to support the broadcasters in any way he can. The €6 million achieved for public service broadcasting in budget 2017 was described by the Minister as the beginning of the process of reversing the cuts imposed over recent years. As the committee is aware, the Minister is not simply looking at reversing these cuts; he is also considering the potential legislative changes he could make to provide some form of respite to both organisations by helping to improve the current TV licence model so that the high level of evasion is reduced. According to the most recent figures, the current rate of evasion is 13.75%, which is unacceptable. The committee will also be aware of the Minister's significant decision to agree in principle to tender for the role of TV licence collection agent. This issue, like others, is being examined in detail by the Department because legislative changes will be required. The Minister has made it clear that current payment method options, including the post office network, have to be maintained. These changes will feed into a longer-term strategy, which the committee’s work will inform. In the short term, the Minister hopes to return to the committee in the coming months with proposals for legislative changes as part of the required process of legislative scrutiny.

I hope my remarks have gone some way towards describing the Minister’s views and the steps being taken by the Department. In light of the complexity of this subject and the range of views and priorities in this area, the Minister and the Department especially welcome the committee's decision to commence public consultation on this topic. It is only by engaging with all sides of the debate that the central and core issues and values can be identified. I would like to pass on the Minister’s gratitude to the Chairman and members of the committee, as well as the clerk and his staff, for making such rapid and comprehensive progress with this subject. We look forward to engaging with the committee this evening and answering any questions that members might have.

I invite Mr. Michael O'Keeffe, who is the chief executive of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

I thank the Chairman and the members for inviting us to address the joint committee this evening. We are looking forward to making this presentation. We are prepared to make formal appearances at the joint committee and to give briefings on any topics relating to broadcasting that the Chairman or the members might want us to address in the future. We have done that in the past and we would like to continue to do so. Our offer is open.

This presentation has a number of elements. I will give a brief outline of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's objectives and activities to date. I will look at some of the outcomes of the five-year review that took place in 2013 and the main elements of the next review. I will touch on some of the issues pertaining to the commercial and community sectors and how we will deal with such issues in our next strategy, on which we launched a consultation last week. The authority's statutory objectives and functions are set out in the 2009 Act. One of our objectives is to facilitate RTE and TG4 in fulfilling their functions. We have a range of functions that are associated with those objectives. They are primarily concerned with how TG4 and RTE use public funding, but they are also concerned with the impact of their commercial and economic activities, particularly as they apply to or impact on the competing commercial sector. Our activities are designed to show that the public service broadcasters are using public funding efficiently, effectively, in a transparent manner and in pursuit of their public service objectives, as set out in the Broadcasting Acts. That would be important in terms of the role we have with them.

Our broad regulatory activities in relation to RTE and TG4 can be divided into two. Members of the committee will be familiar with our content-monitoring activities, which include assessing levels of compliance with various codes and rules and considering complaints about broadcasting matters. These codes and rules, including programming codes, advertising codes, access rules and subtitling rules, apply to all broadcasters and not just to RTE and TG4. Our more specific remit with regard to financing involves a number of processes. We look at the broadcasters' statements of commitments on an annual basis, we undertake annual reviews and we do five-year reviews of both RTE and TG4. I will give an example of the sectoral impact assessments we undertake when new services are proposed by broadcasters. We undertook such an assessment and made recommendations to the Minister before the RTE News Now service came on stream in recent years. Regarding economic activities, we look at how RTE is using its commercial revenue and its licence fee income. In the last year, we were involved in the development of RTE's fair trading policy, which looks at how its commercial activities operate fairly within the commercial environment.

As I have mentioned some of the regulatory issues, I will move on to the five-year review, which will look specifically at public funding. The Broadcasting Act 2009 requires the authority to carry out every five years a review of the adequacy of public funding to enable public service broadcasters to meet their public service objectives. The presentation we have furnished to the joint committee contains a list of the things we do in that context. We look at the delivery of public service broadcasting, ensure public service broadcasters are relevant to Irish audiences, examine the role of such broadcasters in the creative economy and assess the adequacy of current funding and the question of sustainability. As members are probably aware, the first review was completed in July 2013. We will commence the second review in 2017 and this will be completed in 2018. When it has been completed, we will make a report and issue recommendations to the Minister on the outcome.

Some of the five key recommendations in the first review were covered in the comprehensive scoping document that was prepared for the committee. I suppose the one that stood out was the increase in public funding that was proposed for both RTE and TG4, primarily to increase content. We placed a great deal of emphasis on the question of delivering culturally relevant content for Irish audiences. We recommended that there should be an examination of the cost-effectiveness of RTE and we looked at whether there could be greater deployment of funding to support the independent production sector. We made a number of recommendations regarding the rebalancing of RTE's licence fee and commercial funding. We considered whether there would be greater scope for the commercial sector to benefit if RTE had less reliance on commercial income. We suggested that further analysis was required before making a decision on the proportion of programming that should be made in-house or through independent production. There are differing views on that point within RTE and the various sectors on the outside. Some of the recommendations in the review were implemented and others are still ongoing. Obviously, the funding issue has continued to arise in the annual reviews we have done since then. With the exception of the provisions in the current budget to which Ms Cronin referred, the funding situation has not really changed for RTE and TG4.

We are beginning the process for the next review, which will start in 2017 and will report in early 2018 or the middle of that year. There is a slight change in emphasis in the theme of that review. The earlier review focused on transparency and efficiency, but we are now moving on to the greater challenges encountered by the public service broadcasters as they serve Irish audiences in the evolving digital environment. We will look at future trends and developments. We will examine the capability of the public service broadcasters to meet the challenges. We will review the five-year strategic plans that we will ask the broadcasters to produce in support of our work. We have identified a number of key areas on which we will focus, including the need to serve Irish audiences, creativity, the Irish language, funding implications and any legislative or regulatory changes that are required in support of all of this. The process we will be undertaking will have a number of elements. We will have ongoing consultation with stakeholders throughout the process. We will engage in a range of pieces of research to analyse things like economic trends, international public service media organisations, the general media environment, audience behaviours and technological developments. We will also look at their performance over the past five years. We are hopeful that we will be able to issue a comprehensive report and make recommendations at the end of that period. We hope the Government will be in a position to support our proposals at that time.

It is important to mention the commercial and community broadcasting service. I should make the point that commercial community broadcasters are not public service broadcasters and the Act does not define them as such. However, we recognise that the Act gives them a public purpose and requires that they fill many statutory duties, and they have many public service obligations within the programming that they are required to fulfil on an ongoing basis. That is the distinction we make and we see there is certainly merit in many of the arguments made by them around the requirements they have. There are significant challenges for the sector currently, including the general economic climate as the impact of the recession has been hard. There is also the impact of online media, which is true across the board of traditional broadcasting, as it has changed the way things are. We can see that in the advertising market with changes in audience behaviours. It is also unlikely that the market will ever come back to the level it was at in an earlier stage.

We launched the consultation for our strategy last year and we have put the sustainability of all broadcasters as a central objective, putting it right to the forefront of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's concerns within that. At our launch last week this was broadly welcomed by the commercial and community sectors. We will examine a range of different funding models and make recommendations where we can to support those, both in legislative and other ways. I should mention a range of other initiatives that I have not put in the presentation that we undertake which support the sectors. There is the sound and vision funding scheme, a sectoral learning and development programme that puts up to €500,000 back into the sector every year and we undertake significant research. We are looking at some of the rules for linear broadcasters; for example, we may relax some of the restrictions in place in the advertising code so as to open additional sources of funding.

That is the work programme we have in these areas over the next number of years. It was a very quick run through it but I would be happy to answer any questions.

Before going to members I have two questions. The Department referenced a tendering process for the collection of the television licence. As we know, An Post is currently the Minister's collection agent and it is paid commission to collect the fee. In light of Mr. Bobby Kerr's report and considering the different ways we can support the An Post network by increasing the amount of State services it can deal with, is the matter outlined in the presentation seen as a retrograde step? It may take away services from An Post in that although it will be paid per licence fee paid into the post office, there is the potential after the tendering process that somebody else could be paid for the collection service of the television licence.

Much research on the commercial pressures on media coverage - both print and broadcasting elements - indicates there is influence and pressure on the operators from commercial influences. A substantial amount of research demonstrates that commercial media does not provide voters with sufficient information on policy and political content. I note Dr. Kevin Rafter of Dublin City University researched the issue comprehensively and argues that Ireland would not be reflective of what happens internationally with regard to commercial and public service news organisations as there is not much of a difference in the public service element. Whether bodies are commercial or public, they provide similar levels of public service broadcasting. What is the view of witnesses on that?

Mr. Éanna Ó Conghaile

I will answer the question on the use of the post office network, any potential tendering and providing for a new collection agent. The Minister is very conscious of the role that the post office networks play in rural communities. He is aware of the Kerr report and he has made it quite clear that if and when the agency role goes to tender, and if it is taken by another organisation, subject to the caveat that any arrangements would need to be in accordance with state aid and competition rules and so on, the post office network should continue to be the distribution point for the sale of television licences.

If it did not get the tender, would the post office network collect the fees? The people would pay the fee to the post office network but it would not necessarily get the commission that the winning tenderer would get.

Mr. Éanna Ó Conghaile

Currently, with the sale of television licences, one can either buy them through the post office or pay online. For example, I pay for mine online at €13.33 per month and it is sent to me in the post. My understanding is the post offices would continue to get the commission from the sale on the premises and they would also benefit from the continued footfall of customers who come to pay for the licence.

There is potential for another company to oversee the collection.

Mr. Éanna Ó Conghaile

Potentially-----

Another company could win the tender and it would be the collection agent.

Mr. Éanna Ó Conghaile

That is possible, although the decision has not been made about the form of the tender. There are a number of parts to the whole operation. There is issuing and sale, detection, enforcement and maintenance of the database. Whether they all form part of one tender or separate tenders must be decided. The Minister has been very clear that he wants the role of the post offices to be maintained in terms of being a sales point for television licences and they would benefit from the commission related to the sales of licences in that way.

I suppose I am talking about the potential loss of revenue to the post office network.

Mr. Éanna Ó Conghaile

My understanding is the revenue is paid to An Post and, as an organisation, it would take in the full amount of commission that we provide to An Post. That includes a smaller element of commission relating to free licences issued by the Department of Social Protection. There is also the issue of licences paid for online and the issuing of physical licences. I am open to correction on this but not all post offices would be An Post post offices. Many of them are run on a contract basis by local postmasters. They are paid based on the commission they get from the sales of licences in each post office. The proposals would not vary from the current way that is established.

Is the witness saying this will come down to the nuts and bolts of the tendering process? You do not know if there will be a potential loss and the tendering process must be worked out before any potential loss of income could be determined.

Mr. Éanna Ó Conghaile

Those decisions must be made. I should be clear that the Minister is very conscious of the role played by the post offices and the need to try to ensure, as much as possible, that they continue to play a central part in the sales of television licences.

Does Mr. O'Keeffe wish to deal with the question of the commercial versus the public services?

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

It goes back to my comment on the public purpose of the commercial sector in broadcasting in this jurisdiction.

They all have requirements for matters such as fairness, impartiality and objectivity. There is not much difference in what they are required to do. I would not necessarily agree that there is not much difference in what they provide. All broadcasters provide different approaches to news and current affairs. The commercial pressures are around the cost of operating in that model. I would not interpret it as commercial pressures being brought to bear on broadcasters in terms of how they cover material. It is more a question of the challenges they face generally. There is not that much difference in what is required. There are different levels or scales in that respect but they both have obligations. That is within the legislation and we implement it.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. Getting David McRedmond as chief executive of An Post to increase TV licences is a fantastic example of poacher turned gamekeeper. That will not be easy. It has to be legislated for. It is hard to square the circle of keeping it the old way but the old way "ain't working". I presume there is another short-term measure we must consider, for example, cable networks having a must-carry obligation for stations such as RTE. Flipping that, at some point they must pay because there is an inequity in areas where there could be an immediate return through a fairly easy legislative change. Similarly, the provision for the sale of land in RTE, which I have been arguing for because the land there is under-used and it is valuable land which is badly needed for housing. They are all short-term solutions, not structural changes. I was very glad to hear Mr. O'Keeffe's suggestion that the next round of reviewing the public service funding is considering the wider scope of how public service is evolving in the digital environment and if I am reading it aright, this would include the commercial broadcasters in some way.

Do we have figures for how much advertising companies in the digital market, such as Facebook and Google, would get in the Irish market? Are there figures for what the international and domestic satellite providers gain here? This would give us an understanding of who the different players are. Digital advertising is a growing area. RTE's figures for it are approximately €16 million, 10% of its commercial revenue. What percentage is that of the overall digital advertising market? Are there ways of finding out what that market is?

If I recall rightly there was a consultative event in the Royal Hospital Kilmainham before the establishment of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland - Mr. O'Keeffe is long enough in the tooth to remember it. The event was innovative, bottom-up not just top table but a genuine communication between a variety of interests. Would it make sense for us to host, or to do so in conjunction with the BAI and the Department, a similar public event to open up this question? There are so many people with an interest in it, the public service broadcasters, the commercial TV companies, the newspaper industry, community radio and the content providers, the independent production sector, the advertising sector, satellite and cable providers. The committee could bring in one after the other but a public event like that event in the early 2000s, at a point when we had to seriously reconsider our public service broadcasting, would be better. We could host it in early spring and allow different people come and in a creative, facilitated way share different ideas and output. It is such a complex issue with so many players involved an innovative forum might be better than a series of presentations here. I would be interested to hear the Department and BAI's assessment of that. I have seen it work for broadband policy in the Department. If we facilitate it cleverly it is the best way of getting different views on a complex situation. That might assist the BAI's funding review and allow us to carry out the review the Minister commissioned us to do.

Ms Patricia Cronin

We do not have figures for Google but we do have a figure for revenue from online advertising which has increased from €100 million in 2009 to €340 million at the end of 2015. That gives a sense of the scale of the advertising. Google and Facebook would, I presume, be big players.

Where did that figure come from?

Ms Patricia Cronin

We do not have the source, just the figure. Opt-out advertising by the digital channels takes approximately €50 million out of the €200 million total advertising revenue for broadcasters. That gives a sense of the scale of competition for the broadcast sector in Ireland. We can go back to the Minister with Deputy Ryan's suggestion. He is always very keen to work with committees and to be as open as possible. Like the Deputy, he appreciates the scale of the challenges facing broadcasters, especially for the future of public sector broadcasting.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

I have nothing to add on the figures. I would say they are probably correct. We would have had figures on the opt-out advertising which would echo what the Department has said.

One of the things that emerged from the forum on broadcasting was the sound and vision broadcasting funding scheme, which brought in 7% of the licence fee. Maybe we will get another 7%. It is a very good idea. Things are changing very quickly and dramatically. The revision of the audio visual media services directive is being debated in the various regulatory authorities. It is proposed to put that in place by the first half of 2018. If the Department and the committee is involved in the event we would be very happy to support and play a part in it.

Can Ms Cronin answer my question about the must-pay versus must-carry rule on cable networks for public service broadcasting? Has that been considered?

Ms Patricia Cronin

We are considering it as part of the legislation.

That would give a certain revenue.

I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their presentations. Finance is the central question. The option of a household broadcasting charge was considered but we have moved away from it. The figure quoted for online advertising is staggering. How much is the overall advertising revenue in the broadcasting sector? Are there any statistics on its decline or increase in recent years? Can the Department and BAI indicate the shortfall in revenue from advertising, coupled with the fact that the licence fee has not increased and that there is approximately 13% evasion? Figures for that would be useful. We hear calls from commercial radio and TV for part of the licence fee. I am a firm believer in a strong public service broadcasting sector.

There is also a counter view on the commercial sector and the stand-alone operators. I would like to hear the views of the Department and the BAI in that regard.

The last matter I will ask about is election coverage. While not all sections of the media are guilty of this, analysis was carried out after the recent general election and published online about three months after the election which showed that the party I represent, Sinn Féin, did not get fair media coverage and was consistently exposed to a high level of negative coverage. The broadcasting sector was not the worst offender. One particular print media outlet was guilty of most of the negative coverage. Let us forget which party I represent; let us just consider the matter from the point of view of fairness. Mr. O'Keeffe outlined in his opening remarks the importance in a functioning democracy of having good public service broadcasting, and I think we all agree with that, but has any analysis been done of that coverage? Have conclusions been drawn from it? Are there safeguards in place? I would like to hear Mr. O'Keeffe's views in that regard because it is important. While every party might complain and shout that it does not get a fair crack of the whip, even in how interviews are carried out and so on, I think any fair analysis of the last election would show - and even opponents of Sinn Féin have commented - that the coverage we received and the way in which we were presented in many of the different media outlets were a long way from fair. Sections of the print media, particularly Independent News and Media, INM, were the worst offenders. I acknowledge that much of the broadcast media was very fair. The interviews on RTE and so on were fair, but many other elements were not. I would like the witnesses to comment on that.

Whoever wants to respond to those questions may do so.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

I will address the last one anyway, if the Chairman wishes, and will make some observations on the others.

As Deputy Stanley knows, within the broadcast media there are requirements of fairness, impartiality and objectivity and we police that. A compliance committee examines and monitors that. The same does not apply to the print media. The print media does not have those same obligations, so it does not have to comply with them. Were there evidence of non-compliance, we would take action. We have commissioned some research on the last general election from a man mentioned earlier, Kevin Rafter, who is doing that piece of work for us at the moment and we should have a report on that. It will look at the broadcast media because, obviously, the BAI is particularly concerned about the broadcast media. We probably will have some information on that early in the new year. I think Mr. Rafter is doing some analysis work at the moment on that, which we can make available to Deputy Stanley when we have it.

To address an earlier question, the Chairman mentioned the commercial sector and the challenges it faces and whether it should get the licence fee. We recognise that it has public service obligations. The licence fee has not increased, as the Chairman knows, for some time, so we question whether cutting another piece of the licence fee to give to the commercial sector would be the best way to go. There are other funding mechanisms and we have made the need to address some of those one of our objectives. There are mechanisms, whether around advertising rules and regulations or other areas. We support the commercial sector in many ways through the Sound & Vision funding scheme. We will look at other mechanisms as to how that might be done and will make recommendations. Over the course of the next 12 months we envisage giving a good bit of time over to that.

I am sure there is information on the amount of online advertising revenue and I imagine we could get some figures in that regard. I do not have any to hand. Ms Cronin might have some more information about the figures.

Ms Patricia Cronin

To give Deputy Stanley some very rough figures, the advertising revenue has gone from €300 million in 2009 to €200 million in 2015, which is a very substantive decline. Some of that has gone online and some of it is the opt-out-----

To clarify, for the broadcasting outlets, it has gone-----

Ms Patricia Cronin

€350 million.

-----to €200 million.

Ms Patricia Cronin

€200 million, yes.

That is a drop of €100 million. Regarding online revenue, did Ms Cronin mention a figure of €340 million earlier?

Ms Patricia Cronin

It increased from €100 million to €340 million at the end of 2015. The evasion rate is 13.75%, which is quite high by international standards. Very roughly, if it declined to, say, 5%, that would harness an extra €25 million, which is a reasonable amount of money. That could potentially have been part of the rationale for the decision by the Minister to put licence fee collection out to tender. It is a lot of money to forgo for RTÉ and the independent broadcasters via the Sound & Vision fund. The Minister has spoken at various fora and, in addition to his statutory responsibilities for RTE and TG4, he is quite interested in and focused on local radio. He feels they provide a good service. Clearly, like everybody else, they are facing challenges as well.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. It is good to hear from them all. I have a couple of questions which I will ask in no particular order.

The first concerns the role of the community sector, which I think was mentioned in one of the presentations. This also includes the local radio sector, maybe the commercial sector and maybe the broadcasting authorities. I am not sure if radio comes under the remit of broadcasting as well. Does it?

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

Yes.

Regarding the BAI's rebalancing and looking at the commercial and community aspects, which was mentioned at some stage earlier, there is CRAOL, an umbrella community radio group, and all the local radio stations, which are employed commercially as well. I am interested in the BAI's thoughts on the position if these were to come under its wing in the future. I am not sure whether they are at the moment. What responsibilities and obligations might be imposed on them and what kind of supports might they be expected to receive?

My next question concerns a figure in the BAI's opening statement about compliance and evasion. It is stated that the level of evasion from the TV licence is 13.75%. That does not seem that bad a level of evasion. The corollary of that is that we have a compliance percentage in the high 80s. I am interested to know whether that is vertical or horizontal. My understanding is that if there are multiple devices in a house, each theoretically must be registered under the new licence fee. A person may have multiple addresses. We had a conversation recently about mobile homes and holiday homes. If someone has a TV in a mobile home in Wexford for a few weeks of the year, he or she is expected to have a licence for it separate to the licence for the device in his or her homestead. It is also my understanding that if there is a second TV in a bedroom upstairs, a separate licence must pertain to that. Regarding the evasion fee, is it the case that every household must have a minimum of one licence, so is it a horizontal stretch that 13.75% of households do not have any licence, or is it the case that 13.75% of all the licences that should be paid have not been chased up? I am not sure that is clear. I will clarify that if necessary.

I will raise a general point. Deputy Stanley raised political broadcasting. No one party has a monopoly on complaints. The party I represent is not always best pleased by coverage either. The coverage is a mapping back to a function of representation in the Oireachtas, and it was not always a fair representation in terms of the coverage received.

I am not sure whether it has improved in the new Dáil. It is probably too early to tell, although the broadcasting sector and RTE in particular are struggling with the minority Government arrangement. A recent "Prime Time" debate fundamentally misunderstood the nature of our minority Government and, therefore, perhaps it is time RTE got up to speed with the reality around most of Europe and most western democracies. It might be something for the BAI to keep an eye on as well.

Mr. Éanna Ó Conghaile

Mr. O'Keeffe will follow on the issue of the community broadcasting sector but we are conscious of its role. Under the legislation, it is one of the three pillars of Irish broadcasting. My division is undertaking a report and we have engaged with members of CRAOL over recent months trying to get a handle on the issues facing the sector because community broadcasters face specific issues as a very much voluntary sector to which quite a different funding model applies. We have engaged with them and we hope to complete a report for the Minister on the sector by year end. We will hope to use the report to identify the issues and potentially any solutions that we can put in place from a policy perspective. I am sure Mr. O'Keeffe will add to that later.

There is a requirement under the legislation that there should be one television licence per premises or per household. That is why, for instance, holiday homes are covered by the requirement to have a television licence. In a block of apartments, each apartment, which is a separate household, is required to have a single licence. No matter how many devices are in a household, one licence will cover them.

The Deputy referred to the evasion rate of 13.75%. That is 13.75% of all licences that should be in existence. I hope that answers the question.

That is helpful. At one stage, it was proposed that every device would have a licence attaching to it. Therefore, in a household with three televisions and three iPads, six licences would have been required. If five out of the six were registered, would the household be considered to be evading? I did not think that was the case but I wanted to clarify that.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

On the political broadcasting point, my response is similar to that which I gave Deputy Stanley. It is more challenging for broadcasters. There are more political parties and they are obliged under the legislation to provide fair and impartial coverage. We are there not to tell the broadcaster what to do but to step in in the event that the Deputy or other groups are dissatisfied with the approach. We are available and we will deal with issues as they arise on that basis.

The community sector is important to us. We have a sectoral development fund not just for the community sector but also for the commercial sector, which provides up to €500,000. It supports a range of initiatives and it supports the various networks that are developing across the sector. It also supports training programmes for radio and television, in particular. We undertake a number of research initiatives through which we support the different sectors. We put a great deal back into supporting them. They pay a levy to us and this is something we give back to this important sector. The three strands of community, commercial and public provide for a strong broadcasting sector throughout the country and, therefore, we are supportive of that.

I second Deputy Ryan's proposal for a wider forum for all the stakeholders. If we could contribute to that, I would be happy to do so. It is a good suggestion.

I have a question about tracking public perception of our public service broadcasters. The 2014 review proposed an annual survey. What is the current status of that? This ties in with the comments of Deputies Lawless and Ryan about consultation with stakeholders. When we examine funding of public service broadcasters, we need to consult the citizens who watch their output about whether they feel they are getting value for money and what they would like to watch. The consultation process will be key politically to any funding model put forward in the future. We must consult citizens.

I refer to data protection issues relating to who has a television in their homes. I understand the Department is considering legislation in this regard. People may have televisions but there is no way of ascertaining whether they do. There are data protection issues and legislation is required. Perhaps the departmental officials will comment on that.

Ms Celene Craig

I will take the first question about audience perceptions. In the course of conducting annual performance reviews of each of the public service broadcasters, we were measuring and assessing their performance against their annual commitments but the BAI also came to consider its own need to assess the extent to which they were performing against their statutory remit a little more specifically. We set about that for the first time over the past year. It is our intention to conduct that research year on year over the next three years and to track progress. We have not put the information in the public domain yet, although when the report on public funding for 2015 is presented to the Houses of the Oireachtas, members will see references to the research that was used to assess the performance of both RTE and TG4. We are looking at making available more publicly some of the key leading results of that. However, at this point we can share that in general the performance of both our public service broadcasters was viewed strongly in respect of many of the key aspects of their statutory remit.

What about the data protection issue?

Ms Patricia Cronin

Clearly, we are at an early stage in terms of the consideration of issues around the tendering but a database is there, which is owned by the Minister, with the names of people who are paying the television licence. However, the Chairman is correct that data protection is a critical issue in terms of anything we might do and we will have to examine it in depth. It is an important issue to highlight.

Is there analysis available of what we are looking at? I do not refer to who is watching RTE or TV3 and so on. I am sick and tired of realclearpolitics.com and I cannot wait to see the back of it. Hopefully, that will happen after tomorrow. I spend my time on that website or on The Guardian website. Is there a baseline analysis available of where we get our news and what we are looking at to help us with the assessment?

Given the BAI's most recent report stated the funding of public service broadcasting needed to be increased and it was not, on a scale of zero to five where zero means we are reasonably okay but we need to look at this while five means it is starting to impinge on the ability of public sector broadcasters to deliver and it is a critical problem, how would Mr. O'Keeffe assess the urgency of addressing the funding crisis?

If the advertising revenue has gone from €300 million to €200 million and licence fee revenue is static or has fallen, how serious is that issue for RTE and TG4, whatever about the other players in the industry?

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

On the first point regarding the analysis, we undertake research. We are part of the Reuters international research. Admittedly, it is an online survey, which may skew the results a little in the online direction. We have signed up to this and we get results for Ireland over a three-year period. We have two years of results at this stage. That is showing the strength of television, particularly the public broadcaster, which is very strong in terms of where we get our news. However, online is growing to a significant extent and radio is also strong. Print is declining. That is a trend. We have detail on that and we can provide it.

It would be great if the witness could share it.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

We will do that. We are doing it over a three-year period and we are due to get the third year of results to see the trend. It is always useful to have a slightly longer period to show a trend. We will have the third year results next June and we will do something on it. We can certainly make that available to members of the committee.

Ms Craig will respond to the second question.

Ms Celene Craig

I will respond separately with regard to TG4 and RTE. On TG4, successive consultants who have undertaken our annual reviews have strongly made the point that TG4 cannot take any further cuts in its funding. It is essential that funding is maintained at its current level, at an absolute minimum, if it is to have any hope of sustaining its current listenership. It would require additional funding to grow its listenership and to develop and respond to the challenges it faces in the digital environment. We are probably also reaching a similar point more recently with RTE. Hence the strategic focus of the five-year review on examining the funding requirements. There is funding available which will allow broadcasters to hold their current position, perhaps with some difficulty, but there is a need for them to be able to respond and evolve in the digital environment with online content and content that is made available across a range of platforms. Both current funding and capital investment are required to facilitate those types of development. Critically, the forthcoming five-year review of public funding will aim to focus on those key questions and examine exactly what is needed to help the broadcasters remain strong in terms of providing culturally relevant content for Irish audiences into the future.

Therefore, it is five and five.

Mr. Michael O'Keeffe

We do not like numbers.

I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting. It was a worthwhile conversation and we look forward to working with them over the weeks and months ahead. Is it agreed that the committee will publish the submissions received today and the letter from the Minister? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session 6.25 p.m. and adjourned at 6.45 p.m. until 5 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 November 2016.
Barr
Roinn