Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Nov 2017

Post Office Network: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

I welcome everyone here this evening. I propose that the meeting will follow the following order. We will resume our discussion with An Post on the post office network that took place on 17 January. We will then have a five minute break to allow the witnesses to leave the room and then resume in private session. Next we will have another five minute break to allow a new witness to take his seat. We will resume in public session at 7 p.m. when we will talk to Mr. Geoffrey Meagher, chairman designate, Bord na Móna. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the chairperson to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I also wish to advise witnesses that any submission or opening statements they have made to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind witnesses and members to turn off their mobile phones or turn them to flight mode.

I welcome the witnesses here this evening. We have officials from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment. We also have representatives from the following stakeholders: An Post; the Post Office Network Business Development Group; the Irish Postmasters' Union; and Age Action Ireland Limited. This will be followed by a questions and answers session with the members.

The committee last engaged with stakeholders on 17 January and wrote to the Taoiseach recommending that a single Minister should be responsible for An Post and the post office network.

I understand that has now happened and the Department of Rural and Community Development is still responsible for investigating the Sparkassen model and how it might apply in Ireland and in particular to An Post and the post office network. The witnesses' opening statements and presentations were circulated to the committee and will be published on the committee website after the meeting.

We have received apologies from the Communications Workers' Union, CWU, and Tico Mail which were also invited to the meeting today. Mr. Pigot would like the letter he forwarded to the committee to be noted and circulated to committee members.

I will start with the first witness from each organisation. If they want to introduce other speakers from their organisations they should do so as they go along. We will start with the witnesses from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment. They are Ms Patricia Cronin, assistant secretary, and Ms Barbara Leeson, principal officer, both of the corporate governance division.

Ms Patricia Cronin

I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it. By way of background, I will explain the role of the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, which is responsible for the postal sector, including the governance of An Post. It is responsible for ensuring the company is fully compliant with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and the governance functions included in the statutory framework underpinning An Post.

The committee facilitated a very informative and useful discussion on the challenges facing An Post last January. Since then there have been a number of developments which I will now update the committee on. To start, the committee will be aware that the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment briefed the Government last week on the comprehensive strategic plan that An Post has prepared, the objective of which is to secure the long-term viability of both the post office and mails businesses and return the company to a sound financial footing.

The current financial challenges facing An Post have been well documented over the past year. They have arisen mainly from the decline in mail volume and the move to electronic transactions in both the mail and post office network. In my previous appearance I indicated that mail volume decline accelerated to 5.5% in 2016. This trend has continued this year with volumes to date down 7.5%. This is a global trend and is not unique to the Irish postal service. However, the action taken by the Minister and approved by the Oireachtas to facilitate the repeal of the price cap mechanism has worked to stabilise turnover on the mails side. This has resulted in an improved financial forecast for An Post for 2017 with a much lower level of losses now anticipated.

Despite the improved financial forecast, the Government accepts the long-term challenges facing An Post in both the mails and post office business. In response, the Government has agreed to make available State funding of €30 million to enable An Post to move quickly in delivering on the vision of the plan, building on the momentum of actions taken this year. The €30 million has been ring-fenced for the five day a week universal postal service in order that it continues to every address in the country and to support and develop services in the post office network. This funding will be provided in the form of a repayable long-term loan. To ensure its long-term success against the backdrop of an accelerated decline in mail volume and falling revenues, An Post is embarking on a significant transformation programme. As this loan represents an Exchequer injection to An Post, it will be subject to a degree of oversight including a new letter of expectation from the shareholding Ministers. The detail of how this will be managed is being worked on.

The strategic plan prepared by An Post harnesses the company's existing strengths such as its nationwide reach, trusted brand and the relationship of postmasters with communities, both urban and rural. At the same time, An Post has recognised it cannot and should not fight the digital agenda. It must be embraced and this is reflected in the plan, especially in the emphasis on growing the parcels business. For example, the company now offers Saturday and evening deliveries and has launched new product lines such as AddressPal and ReturnsPal, embracing the rising trend of online shopping. Enhanced banking services are becoming available through the post office network with the smart bank account. It is expected that further such opportunities will be available across the network, especially as high-speed broadband becomes widely available through the roll-out of the national broadband plan.

The Government decision last week also formally transferred the post office network back to my Department from the Department of Community and Rural Development. The community banking model will be finalised by that Department.

The Government has also committed to exploring the potential for extra business for the post office network, including motor tax. The nationwide reach of the post office network makes it uniquely positioned to act as a gateway to Government. The local post office and local staff who deliver mail are still an important part of the fabric of local communities, especially in rural areas, and the Government recognises the importance of ensuring this continues into the future. Part of the Government response includes the development of the digital assist concept where the post office will act as a digital gateway to Government. This project will be developed on a pilot basis working with Government, An Post and postmasters.

There are concerns about the closure of post offices and it is something that also concerns the Minister. Overall activity levels are down by 15% since 2013 and annual payments to some post offices have reduced by up to 20%. These reductions mean the income model is becoming unsustainable, especially for postmasters operating smaller post offices.

The Minister is extremely conscious of the value placed on local post offices in towns and villages across the country. While it is accepted that in light of the ongoing decline in activity the network must be renewed, it is also important that this is done in a controlled and transparent manner. An Post is entering into a period of significant change but this change is critical to ensuring the long-term success of our national postal operator and a sustainable post office network. Doing nothing is simply not an option.

Once again, I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it.

Mr. David McRedmond

I submitted my introductory remarks to the committee so I will highlight a number of the items in it. When I appeared before the committee last year I had just joined An Post. We had a very severe financial crisis. PwC had estimated we would lose €61 million this year. I am pleased to say that as a result of some of the actions Ms Cronin outlined and some of the actions we have taken in An Post, we expect to break even by the end of the year. We have managed to get ourselves into a position of some sustainability but we have yet to get ourselves to a position of growth. One of the essential things we did was to increase prices but that just got them up to the European average. It has been extremely important for us to take the tough decisions that allow a business and service to be viable. For years prices were suppressed and it was a tough decision. I commend the Department, the Minister and the Government for backing it. It has allowed us to get to viability. The second thing is in terms of mails and parcels we completely relaunched our parcels business. This time last year there was a project about whether An Post should probably get out of parcels. We said parcels were our future. We worked very closely with the unions, particularly the CWU. We agreed to Saturday delivery, later cut-off times and a whole range of new products so that today customers in Ireland have probably one of the best parcel services anywhere in Europe. They are able to get parcels from anywhere around the world. They can get them delivered next day and collected from their homes. It is very significant change. To date, we have about €8 million additional revenue from that parcel business. The third thing we have done is made a very significant reduction in our head count. At the end of this year, somewhere in the region of 350 people will have left. Some have left already but 316 additional people will be leaving An Post. That has been done with the agreement of the unions on a voluntary basis. That is a huge credit to the staff of An Post and shows the organisation is really grappling with the issues of the pressures of mail decline. That is what has happened on the mails and parcels side of the business. We have implemented a strategy. We brought in McKinsey. We looked at the business of An Post and we decided to split between mail and parcels and the post office network. The mails and parcels business is now moving forward like a train and I can see a whole load of developments coming there in the years ahead as we become the backbone for e-commerce in Ireland. The post office network side of the business we have done all we can centrally to be able to reform and modernise that business. It needs rapid modernisation. We have put in place a management team that has control over the business. We have identified the three areas in which the business has to succeed and grow. The first is in financial services.

We launched the smart account, but we have far more to do. We have to investigate again where An Post can go with banking, community banking and making services available throughout the State. We are exploring that right now while we continue to develop financial products. We have proven that we can do it. We have proven with our smart account and foreign exchange services that we have the capability. We need to extend our range of services. We have also proven our capability with State savings. Through An Post, the State has built up savings of over €20 billion. We believe we can build something very big on the back of this significant business and significant level of activity.

The second area of interest is Government services. This probably relates somewhat to the earlier conversation about the television licence fee. I was unaware of this proposal until I read about it in the Sunday newspapers. When I think about the real meaning of the post office, it strikes me that it should be the State's office in every town and community. We have committed to ensuring there is a post office in every community of over 500 people. We want the harp to be above the door. We want citizens to know they can get every service through the post office. We want all of those services to be available through An Post online. That is a major piece of activity for the post office network. Financial services is the first leg of our activity and Government services are the second leg. It is right that Deputies and Senators are concerned about whether post offices will remain open, but it is wholly unrealistic of them to want to keep every post office open while moving Government services away from the post office. It is very important that we do our job to deliver that efficiently, well and in a modern way so that consumers can absolutely rely on the service they get from the post office and can see the post office as a one-stop shop. If we make Government services available, we can add real value to communities throughout the State. It is a very important piece of what we do.

The third area I would like to highlight is our mail and parcels business, which is the backbone of e-commerce in Ireland. We want to strengthen the important part the post office network plays in that supply chain and make sure it is known. The post office has a viable and strong future. We have completely restructured ourselves internally. We have built a machine that can deliver what we are seeking to deliver. We need to be able to move on with the actual footprint of the network so it can work in a way that involves modern and properly broadband-connected post offices that can deliver a range of services. The attention and focus of the post office side of the business will be on providing those services, which will be replicated online, in the months and years ahead.

Chairman

I thank Mr. McRedmond. I ask Mr. Bobby Kerr, who is a former chairman of the Post Office Network Business Development Group, to address the committee.

Mr. Bobby Kerr

I concluded my work on this issue on Christmas Eve 2016. I have not really done anything since I submitted my report. I would like to recap on what I recommended with the collaboration of the Irish Postmasters Union and the company. I recommended to the Department that €56 million should be spent over a four-year period to regrade all the post offices into three grades. I suggested that the amount of money to be provided under the capital investment plan would vary depending on the post office involved. I proposed that a co-location incentive be introduced to encourage post offices to relocate to convenience stores or other locations. I recommended that a minimum payment should be guaranteed to smaller post offices, which currently do not enjoy such a guarantee. I suggested what the network should do over four years to be best positioned to survive. I proposed that €4 million from the €56 million fund should be allocated to pay for the closure of 80 post offices, at an average of €50,000 per post office. It seemed to me from my discussions with the company and the union that a number of offices wanted to leave the network and I thought this could be facilitated. I submitted my report when my work ended and I wished everybody well. I read about the latest modification of what was submitted in the newspapers and online. I am happy to contribute by answering any questions members might ask me.

Chairman

We appreciate that. I ask Mr. Ned O'Hara, who is the general secretary of the Irish Postmasters Union, to make his presentation.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it this afternoon. I thank Mr. Kerr for the work he has done. He has reminded us that almost 12 months have passed since the solutions to this problem were highlighted, but nothing has happened in the meantime.

I welcome the investment of €30 million in the post office network announced last week by the Minister, Deputy Naughten. Our understanding is that this €30 million will be divided between the universal service obligation mail business and the post office network. We are not clear on that. While we welcome the investment, it has to be prioritised as a matter of urgency. As the Minister has acknowledged in the Dáil, during the year that has passed since Mr. Kerr proposed his solutions, the individual incomes of postmasters have decreased at an alarming rate. The network is in danger of collapse. Individual postmasters cannot survive. We are looking for clarity on the breakdown of the investment. We do not know what the investment is for. As far as we are concerned, it must deliver sustainable news services in post offices. Postmasters cannot determine what services they provide. They depend on An Post and the Government to provide them with services.

The four-year transition mentioned by Mr. Kerr must be supported to enable postmasters to adapt to new commercial contracts that are agreed. The goal of keeping as large and as sustainable a network as possible open must be supported. It is not sustainable at the moment. We recognise that postmasters' contracts are in need of review. The allocation that has been approved by the Cabinet will go some way towards enabling this process to be agreed and completed. This investment should allow for an ordered review and an agreed plan for the future size of the post office network. A concern of ours is that it must not get diverted. We are aware of all the issues faced by An Post. We recognise all the solutions outlined by Mr. McRedmond. Our fear is that some of the investment will be diverted away from the post office network and will be used to address other issues in An Post.

I would like to remind people of the overall position. The people of Ireland regard the post office network as a national asset. It is a key resource in addressing many of the issues in rural and urban Ireland. We believe the service we provide represents good value for the people of Ireland. Postmasters are paid by transaction. Our firm belief is that any issues in An Post are not caused by postmasters and cannot be linked to the amounts of money paid to postmasters. The post office network can offer expanded and safe financial services and innovative social and community services. We are trusted. People want to use their post offices. They want them to stay open and to do much more. On a macro level, the postal industry is in decline but the demand for personal services has not changed. Communities should not be threatened just because the postal industry is changing. Some 30% of the transactions handled by postmasters at the moment are post office-related, some 55% of them are Government-related and 15% of them are commercially-related. The postal industry is in transition, but that should not threaten the demand and the need of communities for personal services in their post offices.

We want clarification on what happens next following last week's announcement by the Minister. We need full transparency and details. We need a breakdown of what this money is specifically for. Last week, the Minister said:

The €30 million which has been put into the company has been ring-fenced for the five day a week universal postal service in order that it continues to every address in the country and to support and develop services in the post office network. The nationwide reach of the post office network makes it uniquely positioned to act as a gateway to Government.

That statement does not clarify what the money entails for the development of the actual network.

We understand, but it has not been clarified, that the announcement involves €15 million for the post office network and €15 million to support the universal service obligation. We need clarity.

We also want to know the time period for the investment. This is not clear. We also want to know what new services are planned in post offices. The Minister has spoken about exploring the potential for extra Government business. Exploring the potential for extra Government business and delivering extra Government business do not sound urgent from our point of view. Mr. Bobby Kerr knows that from the first day we sat down with his group we spoke about the provision of motor tax services over post office counters. We recognise the service is going online, with 60% to 65% online, but we would regard this as an indicator of the Government's intention to do something for the post office network. We produced a report in 2014 which stated the Government could save €65 million over five years by allowing the post offices to provide a motor tax service. We are not looking for exclusivity, but we are looking for a signal that the Government is interested in saving the post office network. Exploring the potential for extra Government business, including motor tax, does not signal to us we will get motor tax any time soon.

A new pilot initiative, digital assist, will use local post offices as digital gateways for Government business. More than 12 months ago, we made a presentation to the Department with responsibility for rural affairs and provided a solution with regard to social services. We were promised that five pilot schemes would be up and running and €100,000 was allocated for them. It is 28 November 2017 and nothing has happened in this regard. When will motor tax be available for payment at post offices? What range of services will digital assist involve and when will they come on stream, other than that somebody is committed to exploring them?

At the announcement, key performance indicators were referenced. These are to measure the project referred to by the Government last week. We would like to know what are these performance indicators, in so far as they relate to postmasters, and how will they be measured. What is planned with regard to the renewal of the network? If there is a requirement to close any post office, and we represent every postmaster, we will only countenance any suggestion in this regard so long as it is on a voluntary basis. We have heard compulsory closures may be required. The business of any post office closed under such circumstances, that is involuntarily, must transfer to the neighbouring postmaster to ensure those offices have a sustainable future. They must not be siphoned off or encouraged off to a means other than the nearest post office. We also want clarity on what the announcement accounts for in terms of modernising postmasters' contracts. What is the vision of An Post and of the Government on the size of the network over the coming four to five years?

Resulting from the work we did with Mr. Bobby Kerr, postmasters believe a full range of additional State financial, social and community services can be provided, including all Government payments for the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, motor tax, the HSE, the CAO, third level, fines, licences, all Government forms including electronic form completion, and identity verification. As we stated a year ago, postmasters are ideally placed to be peace commissioners. There are also counter transactions for all commercial banks. People throughout the country are up in arms about commercial banks closing and being robotised and there is a demand for personal service. With regard to remote health checks, a postmaster here today provides a video doc service in his post office in Ballymore Eustace because the doctor only goes to the village twice a week. People use that service. Post offices could also be used for transport information, bookings and meeting points. They could also be used for information and communications technology services. I have stated previously that the people to whom we speak regard this as the adult literacy issue of this age. People are crying out for information and training with regard to information and communications technology. We already provide citizens with tourist information unpaid on a voluntary basis.

Mr. McRedmond referred to the television licence. We read about the committee's proposal that the television licence be taken away from post offices. This will cost postmasters €3 million per annum. We regard this with alarm. We believe the Minister has proposed €15 million for the post office network, but €3 million of this has already been taken away by the recommendation of the committee.

The Minister announced a €30 million investment last week and we welcome this. It would be churlish not to. Many challenges are faced by An Post, and we need full clarity that the post office network allocation will not get diverted to addressing the other issues in An Post. Postmasters and the communities we serve need assurance, transparency, detail and a timeline of how this investment will translate into post offices being supported and kept open, additional services being provided as a matter of urgency, a fair and acceptable exit process for non-viable post offices, clarity and agreement on what a new postmasters' contract would look like, and an agreed and planned vision on the sizes of the Irish post office network. I repeat that this is 28 November 2017. These solutions were available on 28 November 2016 and nothing has happened. I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it.

Chairman

I now call Mr. Justin Moran and Ms Phil Cooley from Age Action.

Mr. Justin Moran

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it. As stated in the Kerr report, the post office is an essential service for facilitating communication and interaction in local communities. It is especially important for older people who use the post office to collect pensions, get cash, pay utility bills and, perhaps most importantly, meet their friends. One Age Action member described the local post office as the most sociable place in town.

The closure of post offices in rural communities forces older people to rely on a transport system that is not fit for purpose, or on the kindness of friends and family members, to get the next town. In this context, we warmly welcome the additional funding announced by the Minister last week and his statement to the Dáil that the Government is fully committed to a sustainable post office network. However, echoing Mr. O'Hara's point, we have seen no further detail on how this money will be used. Are closed post offices, such as those in Sandymount in Dublin or Cleggan in Galway, to be reopened? Are post offices threatened with closure now safe or, as has been suggested, are these funds to be used to create a redundancy fund to pension off postmasters? Put simply, how will communities throughout the country, particularly in rural Ireland, benefit from this additional €30 million? In practical terms, what will change for them?

Another matter on which we would welcome more detail is the digital assist pilot initiative, which envisages the post offices as a digital gateway. Recent CSO figures show almost half of Irish people aged over 60 have never used the Internet in any circumstance. We know this proportion is even higher among people in their 70s and 80s. This is a disturbing statistic in an increasingly online society and evidence of a rapidly emerging digital divide. I acknowledge and welcome the funding received from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment for Age Action's programme to train older people to get online. How will digital assist work for those older people and others unfamiliar with online services? Who will teach them how to use the computers? Who will ensure they do so in a secure manner? It may be helpful for the Department and An Post to explore how this pilot programme could be supported by organisations such as Age Action providing computer training to older people.

I welcome the roll-out of the smart current account by An Post. We would be delighted to see additional new financial services and the expansion of State services outlined by Mr. McRedmond in our post offices. In recent years, we have noticed a large increase in the number of complaints from older people frustrated by banks closing branches, reducing services and avoiding dealing with customers in person. Many have expressed frustration at being unable to take their business to their post office, and I urge everyone involved to expand more quickly the services available in our post offices.

In preparing for today's meeting, I came across a debate between the Minister and an Opposition spokesperson about allowing people to pay their motor tax in their local post office. The debate took place in 1987 and concluded with the Minister announcing that a working group was to be established to look at the matter. It is 30 years later and the same suggestion is still being made, and it was as valid then as it is now. I welcome the efforts by the Minister, the Department, An Post and the Irish Postmasters Union to work collectively to save our post office network, but I urge all to move more quickly to preserve this priceless national asset on which so many older people rely.

Ms Phil Cooley

I work with Age Action as an information officer. On 24 November 2016, a large queue of people were chatting outside the post office in Rialto where people went to collect pensions, disability and other social welfare payments, pay their bills and carry out banking.

A note on the door said that the post office was closed for business and offered Dolphin's Barn as an alternative. Rialto has a large number of older people and others who depend on the post office. Many with mobility issues use Rollators and Zimmer frames. Accessing Dolphin's Barn was very difficult for them. They were using taxis they could not afford to get their pension. One older resident told me she would not be able to pay toward her heating this week as it went on the taxi. The closure was done without notice or any form of consultation, just a note was stuck on the door. A small group of local residents, myself included, gathered in our local community centre to form a campaign. We wrote to An Post to seek a meeting. That Saturday we started to collect signatures on a petition to reopen Rialto post office. That campaign was run every Saturday at the Rialto shops throughout Christmas.

Though we never met An Post, it was aware of our campaign as it gathered momentum. We produced banners and flyers with the help of local businesses. I thank our local elected representatives from all parties who were very supportive of the campaign and contacted An Post directly. In late January 2017, we learned that it was not An Post's intention to terminate the post office service in Rialto but it needed a new location. This was very good news and very hopeful. However, we needed to be vigilant to be sure we did get our post office back. We kept in contact with suitable businesses in the area and continued our campaigning. In early April, we learned that the Rialto Centra had been successful with the tender and the post office reopened on 12 June this year. We continued the campaign for a few weeks, urging people to use the service and return to Rialto post office.

I wanted to tell the story of our campaign as a way of acknowledging all of the local people and representatives who supported us. For more than seven months right through winter and spring, we collected signatures, ran stalls and organised meetings. Many told us we were wasting our time and the post office would never come back. While I am proud our campaign succeeded, I know similar campaigns in other areas have not. I believe that communities should not have to fight so hard to protect essential services.

Chairman

I thank Ms Cooley very much. I might start with a few questions and then bring in the Deputies and Senators. If anyone wants to come in on any particular question, just indicate to me.

Mr. McRedmond stated that he wanted a post office within 15 km of every household in rural areas and 3 km in urban areas, and a post office in every town with a population in excess of 500 inhabitants. How would that square with the lack of transport in rural areas? Perhaps the witnesses from Age Action might want to come in on this if they have assessed how that would impact on local communities. The witnesses should bank those questions and I will come back. Does Deputy Fitzmaurice have a question or Senator McDowell?

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Senator McDowell.

Senator Michael McDowell

There are a few questions that I would like to put arising out of the presentations. I found them very helpful on all fronts. I think the idea that the post office should be a local State office is a good one. It should also be a portal for online services, even with the State. The idea that it could be used for medical consultations and other suggestions is really inventive thinking.

It occurs to me that local authorities might be able to use post offices also, not just the central State. If one wants to get some service from the local authority or to report something to the local authority, the local post office could be the means of communication with county councils and the like. That is a fairly vague proposal but if one wants to have some business with the local authority, it seems to me that is a way of doing it.

On financial services, I was listening recently to an advertisement on the radio for life policies being used to cover funeral expenses. They are being marketed at the moment for people over 55. It struck me that at the end of it there were about five or six sentences added to it saying who it was organised by, that the Central Bank had licensed it and all of these complexities. A State agency was promoting a financial service and half of the advertisement was spent trying to comply with the Central Bank or other regulatory requirements. It made the advertisement unpleasant to listen to and diluted the impact almost completely. Will the Central Bank give the witnesses a much simpler type of logo, word or phrase which gets one past all of this garbage? We do not want to hear people blathering and almost too fast to hear all sorts of stuff which ruins every advertisement.

On parcels, I happen to get them because of a hobby I have. Rathmines post office is not open on a Saturday. That is the one time I want to go and collect a parcel but they do not want to give it to me. A parcel motel service is needed if one wants to be serious about that service. One wants to be able to collect it when working people, what the Taoiseach called people who get up early in the morning, can come and collect their parcels. There is no point in telling a working person who is sitting in an apartment somewhere that they can take hours off work to hunt down their parcel.

An old hobbyhorse of mine is getting stamps to send letters. I know it is easier now, but I cannot believe that something like a franking machine cannot be put on the outside of post offices. One could stick one's letter in and use a credit card. One does not need cash. If one wants to frank a letter, one can frank it there and then and send it off. Many people say they will send a letter without a stamp because it is too complicated. They will avoid the witness's system. It is difficult to access the postal delivery service. I know most of An Post's business now is coming from large institutions which have franking machines. However, for the ordinary Joe and Josephine Soap, the hassle of getting a stamp is big. If there are parking machines that spit out little adhesive labels, it must be possible to have something equivalent for a letter. The other option is to stick the letter into a slot and do it that way. I feel there are difficulties in using An Post's services.

Mention was made of the television licence fee and that €3 million was going to be lost from post offices' revenue. We launched a report today on that subject. The idea we put forward is to have the Revenue Commissioners collect this on the basis that every house has to pay it. It is already collecting money from every house in the form of the local property tax. It is fair to raise the point that this is a revenue stream which it is proposed to be curtailed. However, it is not going to happen immediately. When it does, it will be up to the State and local authorities to think of other revenue streams which can be used.

Is it possible for a post office, reimagined as the local State, local authority, parcel and financial services office, to provide agency services for the broader private sector?

Chairman

Does Deputy Fitzmaurice wish to contribute now? Given that there were a lot of questions, I might let those who wish to speak on them come in now. Perhaps Mr. McRedmond will start. Anyone else who wishes to speak might indicate.

Mr. David McRedmond

I will take those questions in order. The first issue is the number of post offices. I can absolutely understand that the role of Members of the Oireachtas includes representing citizens, looking after them and ensuring that the post office network is maintained, but an obsession with the number of post offices holds back the development of the post office network more than anything. It is far more constructive to talk about the coverage of the post office network and the services it provides. We all know that, as a by-product of modernising the network, some post offices will inevitably close. This is simply because people have moved away from areas where those post offices are situated. What the Senator has described quite correctly is our minimum service. There is a minimum commitment about what will be available in those places and the distance from people. That minimum commitment is very positive because it is bigger than the current minimum commitment. At the moment there is no commitment other than one relating to the distance a person lives from a post office. It is, therefore, intended to strengthen the network. However, there will inevitably be some consolidation of the network, whether it is what Bobby Kerr is saying or what Ned O'Hara is saying about it having to be voluntary. We accept all of these different views but that is essential. We must move on in terms of the services we provide and ensure that the coverage is adequate. I respect the right of the committee to ensure that the coverage is adequate but the number of post offices might not always be the most useful measure.

The second issue is whether local authorities could use post offices. Absolutely. We have a website called licences.ie and I believe every licence and planning permission form ought to be on it. There is the retail jargon "omni-channel", which means something is available online as well as in a place made with bricks and mortar such as a post office. We cannot hold back the digital world and we must make our services available online even if it means fewer people going into post offices. However, if we expand the range of services, we will get that share. For instance, we do a very good job with our passport service. We know that there will always be that 25% of people who will want to go to the post office to get it. It is important they know that the post office is the place it can be got and we are comprehensive in our services. Dog licences is another area. To have all of these services, which are the daily things that annoy us in our lives, available in a one-stop shop, which is the post office, is really important. Local authorities are very important, particularly around motor tax and the provision of driver's licences, although that service is not with local authorities at the moment. We would work closely with them. We have had to get our own house in order inside in An Post to ensure that we are properly organised as a retail business and are able to deliver these products. This is something Bobby Kerr and I, given my past, recognise.

The third issue was life policies for funeral expenses. This is a very popular product. The biggest issue we face with banking, which is why we cannot just introduce all these services immediately, is the level of regulation and the need to have a banking licence. At what point do we need to have a banking licence? We do not currently have one. Banking services stopped because a partner of ours, Fortis, a Belgian bank, went bankrupt. It was not the fault of An Post. However, we have to explore this again and find a way around it.

Having come from the television industry and seen the amount of time and advertising spent on it, I could not agree more that there should just be a stamp that says "Approved by the Central Bank". That would be enough and it is short enough. We should somehow be able to find a way to get to that.

Regarding parcels, even worse than the issue of post offices not opening on a Saturday is that of post offices not opening at lunchtime. I appreciate that they are small offices and it is difficult for people to man them, but we simply have to change that in this day and age. This is why I look forward to working with the IPU and postmasters to find a way to get post offices open. We have just done it with our parcels service to ensure that people can get their parcels on a Saturday and that there are later cut-off times. We now need to do that with post offices. To me it is not acceptable that we are not open at lunchtime or on Saturdays. It is not the fault necessarily of postmasters. It is that of An Post. We have to fix that and we will fix it. I hope it is done very soon. I should note for the benefit of the Senator that we deliver to homes, so we can deliver to his home. Our delivery service can now leave it with a neighbour or nearby or we can do a number of other things. However, the point is well made.

On having a franking machine outside post office, we should have those. I have seen stamp machines on the street. However, I have not been asked this before so I will have to go back and look at it.

On the licence fee, I completely respect what the committee is doing. My background was in television for years. I understand why RTÉ needs this and I appreciate the work done on it. It is an example of where post offices need to be somewhere in the thinking. This is not to preserve the post office but the idea of a one-stop shop for everyone. Services should not be taken away from the post office, especially in light of what those from Age Action say about being able to go to the post office in Rialto or wherever else, knowing that one can get all the services there. The services might be added on elsewhere but they should also be available through the post office.

I cannot read my writing but I think the final issue is whether we can provide the services-----

Senator Michael McDowell

It referred to An Post hunting for commercial work, for instance, as a local agency.

Mr. David McRedmond

Absolutely. There are private licences but some licences which we do not have are semi-State licences. For example, we do not sell Leap cards. It is ridiculous that we do not have the licence to sell Leap cards. This needs to be thought through. I am very grateful for the support, including financial support, of the Department but we need to work with all the Departments to ensure that we get these services. The quid pro quo is we need to do a better job in order that we can guarantee they will be available and done efficiently. I hope that we will do that.

Chairman

Mr. Moran from Age Action wanted to come in on one of those issues.

Mr. Justin Moran

I want to pick up on the comment about post offices in rural areas as well as Mr. McRedmond's comments. I understand the focus on the number of post offices but it can be quite frustrating given the focus needs to be on expanding the services available in them. To nuance the issue slightly, our members' concern is less about the number of post offices closing down and more about the issue of accessibility. Having fewer post offices that people can still get to makes sense. At this point, it goes way beyond the responsibility of the Department or An Post. We are talking about rural transport more generally, which I could talk about for a long time. It is probably one of the key issues for older people. Rather than being something stakeholders can deal with, we have to put it back to Members of the Oireachtas. The more effective the rural transport system is, the easier it is for older people or anyone else to get to post offices. It could be argued that fewer post offices would be needed if people could get to them.

Chairman

I call Mr. Sean Martin, the honorary treasurer of the Irish Postmasters Union.

Mr. Sean Martin

I suggest that the next time we have a committee meeting, if there is one, we have representatives from the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, because that is the most fundamental part of the post office network. Not only does the post office play a huge social role, but economically it plays a huge role in local communities because the money handed out locally in cash is spent locally. That sustains and creates jobs. Unfortunately, the Department has been directing, encouraging and coercing many of its customers to go online and into commercial banks. If it continues to do that, irrespective of the services into which we expand, the network will collapse.

The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection is hugely critical to the post office network. No one is trying to stop the tide that is online business. However, at times we need to take a step back and we need to understand what type of society we want. The society we want is a society where we have face-to-face contact and local services in local communities. If welfare is taken from the post office network, we will collapse that local community and service. It appears to me that this is a programme or campaign on the part of Government to phase out the elderly. This is wrong and it will have huge implications for society. I note that the biggest economy in Europe is Germany's where 80% of transactions are in cash. Why? It is because the Germans know and understand the value of cash.

We need to take a step back and understand there is value in delivering cash to communities.

Chairman

On the television licence fee and what the committee decided today in its report, it is my understanding local property tax can be paid through the post office. That might help. Our recommendation is that Revenue collect the fee, but there is still a role for post offices to play and it is up to the Minister and the Government to explore it.

Ms Phil Cooley

As an information officer with Age Action, I receive many calls from older people in rural areas who get very upset when they hear that their local post office is closing down. They may be housebound or semi-housebound and unable to get to a post office ten or 15 miles up the road. I concur with Mr. Martin when he says the older person is pushed aside. There is a huge cohort of older people. I know what Mr. Moran said about the rural transport service which needs to be put in place. I am on the front line with three colleagues who receive calls once something about a post office comes up and they are very upsetting to listen to. We know that getting people to participate in a campaign does not always work out. People power might work in some areas and people might be listened to.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I thank the delegates for their presentations. An Post is getting a loan of €30 million. Its income is approximately €78 million. The figure in respect of social welfare payments is approximately €50 million. There seems to be a hole every year. I am almost sure the figure in respect of social welfare payments was €60 million, but it is now down to €50 million. It seems that a patch is being put on the tube, but more work needs to be done.

Many postmasters are afraid to retire. I know people running post offices who are well past pension age but who say they are running them because the minute they close the door no one local will get the job. Why do we not shop in a small rural area? Mr. McRedmond might consider the economics and the figures, but I am talking about socially and economically deprived areas in rural Ireland. In looking at new ideas to revitalise the business why did An Post not tender for the contract to collect the licence fee?

Chairman

Which licence?

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

The driver's licence. Why is there no tie-up with courier companies? Postmasters cannot take in parcels because they have signed a contract with An Post. Why is An Post not actively searching for businesses that will bring in €1 or €2 on every transaction that will a service something viable? What is the position on a bank that actively wants to locate in Ireland? Has An Post had talks with it? If it links with a bank that can offer loans or mortgages at massively reduced interest rates, it will get people in. It has the buildings to provide such a service throughout the country. In a town where someone gives up the contract for the post office does An Post consider any tie-up with the local credit union that is open six days a week?

I want to hear how An Post will pay back the sum of €30 million. Is its idea that it can pay off Joe and Mary and whoever else in every post office and and get the money back that way? Are we going to build a sustainable future for post offices? Two years ago when we agreed to the programme for Government, there were many ideas. I commend Mr. Bobby Kerr and much of the work he has done, but we seem to be sitting and waiting for this bomb to go off. A loan will never make An Post sustainable. It might close the gap, but it will not solve the problem unless there is a proper business plan. My fear is that, socially and economically, Mr. McRedmond may not understand parts of rural Ireland. The only time some elderly people might see others during the week - there may be no transport available - is when they go to the post office and have a chat. Is there any link between postmasters and the Health Service Executive to tell it that they saw Johnny or Mary on Friday and that they are still alive, as that might be important? Unfortunately, only economics are being considered.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is telling farmers that applications for the single farm payment will not be accepted unless they are made online. People aged 60, 70 or 80 years who fill in the form do not have a bull's clue about how to get online. They do not have broadband. The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection is actively telling people that if they do not sign up online, they will not be able to withdraw their money. Are we trying to go after all of the kids in rural parts, as the credit unions were cute about doing, with their Sammy stamps and other ideas? Their representatives went to schools to look for business. An Post needs a business plan. It is a question of fighting for business, dreaming up new ideas and going for every contract. We can blame every Department, but if Mr. McRedmond does not tender, he will not get the job.

Deputy Brian Stanley

As my party's spokesperson on this issue, we are very concerned about the slippage and the fact that some of these issues were highlighted in 1987. In the early 2000s there was a lot of talk about trying to reform the post office network. Time has been lost and we are trying to play catch-up. Since the formation of this Dáil a year and a half ago we have discussed this issue at the committee many times. We have met several lobbyists outside and the delegates formally inside this room. I am concerned about the lack of a combined drive to put in place a sustainable post office network. I heard what was said here today and have read the presentations. I welcome much of what is contained in them, but I do not get a sense that we are all driving forward together. When things got going in difficult times it was because somebody had taken them by the scruff of the neck. I do not want to speak for Mr. Bobby Kerr, but I listen to him very carefully when he speaks about this issue. I sense his frustration at the delay and inaction. We have met him.

My concern is that, while we took some convincing, the cost of the national postage stamp has increased to €1. I would not have gone that far, but we were convinced reluctantly to go that far. I have spoken to Mr. McRedmond about this a couple of times. He worked in Tesco and knows that something on the shelf is not priced at €1 but at 99 cent. Once the price moves into three figures, it is in a different domain. There is a psychological effect. To what extent is this responsible for the 7.5% reduction in mail volumes this year?

I expressed concern at the time that the price increase would accelerate the reduction in mail volumes, which is what seems to be happening. Do the price increase and the €30 million loan amount to a band aid solution which seeks to address the problem from the wrong end?

I accept that it will take time to put the new services in place. Sinn Féin has argued strongly for several years that expanding the range of services is key to securing the future of the post office network. If we do not do so, things simply will not stack up. We have heard from Age Action Ireland and other representatives about the importance of the social aspect of the service provided by post offices. The range of services must be extended in order to secure a volume of business that will ensure a dynamic service into the future. We do not want to see it on its last legs again in ten years' time. I agree with Mr. McRedmond's observation that the post office should the State's office in every town and village. In my county of Laois I said at the time that the closure of the post office in Ballacolla meant we had lost three legs of the stool, the others being the local Garda station and the local shops. The social benefit in having people go into the village one day a week is taken away if they have to go to Durrow or Abbeyleix.

Additional moneys have been allocated to An Post, but a question mark remains over their purpose. The delegates from the Irish Postmasters Union have asked legitimate questions about the €30 million loan and what new services are planned. If we do not take the matter by the scruff of the neck now, we will be in trouble. We must drive on in expanding the services offered and avail of the opportunities to provide banking services, the German Sparkasse model and so on. A pilot project in conjunction with the credit unions is in place and should be expanded. The possibilities in regard to the administration of car tax payments were first debated in the Dáil in 1987. Thirty years later our hair is much greyer. Time has passed, but we have not caught up with it. None of us wants to see a post office service that is limping along on a crutch and will be decrepit in ten years' time. We need a dynamic network that will function as the State office in every town, offering customers a range of services. Change is difficult and not everybody will be happy about it. However, if people see positive outcomes and that a dynamic structure is in place, they will get on board.

Chairman

The Deputy's time is up.

Deputy Brian Stanley

We do not get many opportunities to discuss these issues while everybody is at the table.

I welcome the increase of €8 million in the profit made on the parcel service business. There are four mail centres in the State, at Portlaoise, Athlone, Dublin and Cork, which are important pillars of the post office network. In Portlaoise there is a new parcel centre beside the mail centre which provides a very good service. It looks like funding will come on stream next year for the installation of 450 m of roadway as part of the Portlaoise N80 orbital route which will see the road run right past the front door of the centre. It is within 1 km of the N7-N8 motorway junction and the rail station is around the corner, making Portlaoise a key transport hub. The centre has created 200 jobs in the town and an additional 180 in the lead-up to Christmas. In addition, customs processing of inward mail parcels for delivery throughout the entire State is completed there. It is a very important facility.

Chairman

The Deputy must give way to the next speaker.

Deputy Brian Stanley

We must resolve today to do what is needed to ensure we will have a proper, viable network in place for the future.

Chairman

The Deputy has made his point clearly.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I welcome the delegates and thank them for their presentations. We have all encountered these issues in our constituencies and there is a good deal of frustration that despite the various assessments made and reports, very little action is evident in towns and villages throughout the State. Under European competition rules, the €30 million in new funding must be given as a loan which will be subject to oversight. Will Mr. McRedmond explain how the money will be spent and its proposed effect in practice? Several postmasters have told me that, as far as they can see, its function will be to offer them an incentive to close their post office and get out of the system. Will the CEO outline the purposes to which the funding will be put?

The last time we discussed these issues with Mr. McRedmond, we agreed to support the removal of the price cap on stamps. Since that was done, the volume of transactions has reduced. Like Deputy Brian Stanley, I wonder whether the measure has proved to be counterproductive.

I am concerned about the reduction in the number of postal delivery staff. In County Tipperary, for example, we are set to lose 15 permanent staff and another 15 or so contract workers. What is puzzling is that these staff reductions were to be implemented on 1 December. Why would any organisation choose to implement a reduction in the number of front-line staff at the busiest time of the year for its business? An Post has put the move on hold until early January, but the original decision made no sense and leads one to question management's judgment.

In his submission Mr. McRedmond states management is in advanced negotiations with the Irish Postmasters Union on the future of the service. How many times have we heard the same? What is the status of the negotiations? What is the cut-off date for their completion and the expected outcome of the process? There is a great deal of concern, anxiety and uncertainty. Whatever the overall plan which, in any case, seems to be changing all the time, it is certainly not being communicated to postmasters and not coming through to the customer base. As a public representative, I am still wondering, even after all of the discussions, evaluations and reports, what the outcome will be.

Chairman

I invite Mr. McRedmond to respond to the points made.

Mr. David McRedmond

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice asked whether the €30 million amounted to putting a patch on a tyre tube. The scale of the transformation in An Post will require a lot more than €30 million, but it is a very substantial contribution. It is our job to operate within our means and make the funding work for us. It is easy to accuse me of taking the economic view, but I do not have much choice. I have an obligation to ensure the service is sustainable for everybody, not least the State. The €30 million will be split on a 50:50 basis, with €15 million being used to implement our universal service obligation to deliver mail to every house in the State on every working of the week and the other €15 million being invested in the post office network.

It will take a lot more than €15 million to modernise the network but we have to find ways of doing that. We have some of our own assets that we have to take a look at. It is my job and that of the management team to make sure we find the funds to invest in the network. The investment is for a whole range of different things, from capital expenditure to paying to relocate post offices. I was asked if we would be more inventive and look at local shops that could take it on. That is at the core of what we are doing. Mr. Bobby Kerr mentioned co-location. There is a good reason for it because it is convenient for people. Where it is convenient for people, it is convenient for people. There is money for co-location.

There is the issue of the contract negotiations with the postmasters. It will require some investment in terms of what the postmasters make. There will need to be some funds if some postmasters leave the post office network as a result of these changes. It is not money for that; it is money for a range of things to modernise the network. It is only part of it. We have to fund a lot of this ourselves.

I was asked why we are not talking to a bank coming into Ireland. Before I joined An Post, it had a relationship with Fortis and it was unfortunate that Fortis closed. I have read about Sparkassen and what it wants to do. We have had some conversations with it but not at length. We need to do much more fundamental work on it, which we are doing. We are launching new services such as the smart account, which is about getting into a banking licence. We have to work out what that arrangement will be. I hope to come back here at some stage to tell the committee what those services are.

We have set ourselves up now in terms of how we are managing ourselves. Financial services are at the core of what we are doing. We will certainly be doing that and looking at potential partners including credit unions. There can be issues with credit unions, for example, they are local. They are not a group although there are some associations of credit unions. It might be difficult and there might be a different solution. If it was the only solution in a place then we would look at it but our energy will be spent on trying to find a solution across all post offices. In terms of building the sustainable future of the post office and whether we have a proper business plan, that is what we have been doing. I have spent a year trying to get the plan into place. We have the plan in place and we are making all the changes at the centre to be able to deliver the range of products I have been describing.

We have not made sufficient progress on the discussions with the IPU, which Deputy Lowry and other members raised. Those discussions reached a certain point and unfortunately in the middle of the summer they stopped. We wanted to start them again but for various reasons, they are only now just getting back on the table. I hope Mr. Ned O'Hara will agree those discussions are imminent. We are ready to have them. We have made considerable progress and have considerable agreement on a number of issues. I could not agree more with the members, in particular Deputy Lowry, on the need to get this to happen and to mobilise work. We have done it on our mails and parcels business and have made changes there in terms of mails and parcels.

Deputy Fitzmaurice asked about the issue of working with the HSE. It is one of the issues we are looking at on the mails and parcels side in terms of postmen and postwomen who pass by every house every day. It is something we are very conscious of. The committee should not misunderstand me - when I talk about the economics or good management of An Post I am not ignoring the social need. The only purpose of An Post is to deliver social need and we are all acutely conscious of that. The only reason we talk about these other elements is to make sure the social need can be delivered.

I was asked why we did not tender for driving licences and I do not know for sure. I understand the tender for driver licences specified there should only be one location in each county for driving licences. I may have that incorrect because it was a number of years ago but it made it difficult for An Post to tender. We can deliver it everywhere. If we do not tender we will not get it and my colleagues and I want us tendering for everything. We need to all be on the same page.

Deputy Stanley talked about the discussions with the IPU and I quite agree with him. We tested the difference between pricing a stamp at €1 and pricing it at 99 cent and there was not really that much of a difference. Has the €1 driven the 7.5% reduction? It is far less of a reduction than we had expected in mail volumes. It only has us pretty much in line with other countries. It is a bit faster than it was so it has probably accelerated it slightly. I am sure it has had some impact. Has it had the desired impact for An Post? Yes, because we would have lost €61 million. If we lose €61 million we are insolvent. We have debts and creditors and if we lose €61 million we cannot pay our bills. We cannot pay our weekly pay bill. The price increase in the stamps brought us back into a strongly solvent position whereby we will break even this year. I quite accept it will have a market impact and we have to watch that carefully as we go forward. We must expand the range of services, get the vision and take it by the scruff of the neck.

I have tried to share the vision for the post office network particularly with regard to banking, Government services and as the backbone of e-commerce. The Deputy said the parcel service is welcome and asked about the four mail centres and Portlaoise. I cannot say what exactly will happen with the mail centres. There is an agreement with the Labour Court and it is envisioned that one mail centre will close. I would much prefer that a mail centre did not close and that we develop other services. One of the things we are doing separately to what we are talking about today is looking at the strategy for adjacent industries. With the post office network, that is banking. With regard to mails and parcels, it is fulfilment. Major fulfilment centres could open up. We have considered whether we could do something like a pick-and-pack warehouse and how we could deliver Amazon or Alibaba products in Ireland. They are discussions we want to have. We would love to see that. I would much prefer a mail centre became that but we have four mail centres. The Deputy is absolutely right; Portlaoise is a great facility. They are all great facilities and they were all improved dramatically before I went to An Post. We have a very high next day delivery service and it is something we are proud of. Getting the configuration right is something we need to manage.

Deputy Lowry said he is frustrated by the reports and research. I am frustrated as hell. I really want to get on with this and we have to get on and complete these talks with the IPU, make sure we get the shape of the network right and make sure we move forward. I want to do that very fast. We have sorted out the centre of the company. We now need to work with postmasters so I can share their frustration and we can deliver.

I have talked about the €30 million. It will be spent. Has the price increase been counterproductive? I am saying "No", but inevitably there is an impact. The Deputy is quite correct.

The Deputy asked why the policy was for staff to leave on 1 December. We have no choice but to reduce our head count to maintain viability. All the partners recognise that whether it is the unions, An Post or the Government. It was due to be earlier but these things take time. The date of 1 December is not ideal but we can cope with the volumes of mail. I am delighted they are staying until 31 December. It is important for those who will be leaving the organisation. They will be working through the Christmas period.

I have answered the question on where we are with regard to the IPU negotiations. The plan not being communicated is a very fair criticism. We are just at the point now where we have completed it and we know what it is we want to do. Only last week, the top 40 managers in An Post came together to say we should make sure we get that communication right. It is a very reasonable criticism and we need to get it out there.

Chairman

I will bring in the witnesses from the Department. A number of questions came up at the beginning of the session that Ms Cronin might want to deal with. If anyone wishes to contribute, they should indicate that.

Ms Patricia Cronin

I have left the detail of the mails business to Mr. McRedmond. The €30 million loan from Government will be paid this year. It is a loan from Government so there will be some level of conditionality on it which will be set out in a term sheet.

The conditionality is around maintaining the five-day-week delivery service for mail. Clearly the Government is keen that there would be progress on the sorts of initiatives that have been outlined by Mr. McRedmond. That is what the money will be spent on at a very high level. I should mention that we are working on the detail of that.

The money comes from the Department of Finance rather than the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, because that is how the An Post legislation was written. As such, there are quite a number of players involved in managing the process, but we are committing to get €30 million to An Post this year. As I have said, the conditionality is around the sort of initiatives Mr. McRedmond has mentioned and the statutory obligations of An Post.

In response to other points raised by members, the Minister is obviously extremely committed to the post office network, and he recognises the value of it. Another issue around allocating the sum of €30 million is that the Minister has also asked for a protocol to be put in place between An Post and the postmasters. This protocol will be facilitated by an external facilitator. It will deal with the opening of new post offices, extra business and opening hours. As the Irish Postmasters' Union, IPU, has indicated, when a postmaster leaves, it is important that that business transfers to another postmaster. There are a whole range of issues that it is important would be finalised, both for the IPU and An Post, before the next phase of the reform can start in the post office network.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I do not want to reiterate or go back over the ground that we have covered concerning negotiations. We are available and we want to negotiate. I just want to make one point about the reality. I deal with a lot of people on the front line every day. Consider postmasters' incomes in 2017. Some 290 people or 72% of the people who had a salary review this year got a reduction in pay, with the maximum reduction at €27,000. I got a phone call this morning from a postmistress in Limerick whose salary revision came through this month. She is due to be paid this month, and she got €600 less this month than last month. She said to me that she had plans for that €600 for Christmas. We need to translate what we are talking about in the abstract into the real lives of people. That lady is down €600 this week, next month, and for every month from here on. We want this solved quickly. We could have solved it a year ago if there had been a will to do it, either a political will or whatever will is required. We are available and we want to negotiate. Regarding the protocol that Ms Cronin referred to, we met the facilitator last Friday. We want to be in that room this week. Are other parties not available this week? We need to get in and get this done. People are hurting.

Senator Terry Leyden

Has the €30 million in funding announced by the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment been discussed?

Chairman

Yes, it has.

Senator Terry Leyden

Is it a help?

Mr. David McRedmond

Yes, it is a help. I have said that it is not all that is required. The transformation of An Post will require more than that. We have some of our own resources and assets and we will look at those. However, it is a very significant help. What is important is that it allows us to accelerate the plans and get on with them straight away. We have been through the plans for the post office network and what we need to do, and we have to get on with that.

Senator Terry Leyden

As the witnesses know, a report was issued today on television licences. There was not particularly good news for An Post in so far as the collection service is concerned. As a former Minister of State at the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, I have always fought very strongly for An Post to get the contract for collection. Unfortunately, however, the collection misses a lot of people. About 15% of households are not paying. That is not very satisfactory. Those responsible are doing their best. It is not easy to collect licences, particularly in urban areas. There is a change coming, but it is one area of income which has been very useful. I renew it in my local post office.

I have a great faith in the post office system. I was there for a number of years, and I know the service that is provided the community. We must do our utmost to maintain post offices in rural areas. We are finished without them. Rural Ireland would be wiped out. Whatever moves the Minister makes to enhance the postal service, particularly post offices, are for the better as far as I am concerned. It will take a lot of work, and the service has great support from this committee. Every member of this committee would back the service in any way on any initiative that could build up local post offices.

Mr. David McRedmond

I thank the Senator very much.

Chairman

I thank all the witnesses for coming here this evening. On behalf of the committee, I would like to say that it was a very worthwhile engagement. I propose that the committee publishes the opening statements and submissions received for this meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed. After suspension, we will have a short private session before we meet our next witnesses from Bord na Móna, who will be coming in for 7 p.m. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 6.36 p.m. and resumed at 6.50 p.m.