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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Jul 2008

Role and Functions: Discussion with Digital Hub Development Agency.

I welcome the delegation from the Digital Hub Development Agency. I thank them for agreeing to return this week following the adjournment of the meeting last week as a mark of respect to the late Seamus Brennan. I welcome Professor Joyce O'Connor, chairman, Mr. Philip Flynn, CEO, and Dr. Stephen Brennan, director of marketing and strategy.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Professor Joyce O’Connor

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. We are pleased to be here today and we thank the committee for the opportunity to inform it about the Digital Hub and the work of the agency. We are conscious the committee has oversight for the Department to which we report and we consider this an important meeting. The Chairman introduced my colleagues, Mr. Philip Flynn and Dr. Stephen Brennan. We are joined by Mr. Michael McDermott and Ms Edel Flynn in the Visitors Gallery.

The committee wants to know what is the Digital Hub. It is a Government initiative and was established in 2003 to create an international centre of excellence for knowledge, innovation and creativity which is focused on digital content and technology enterprises. Effectively, the hub works in the Liberties area of Dublin and creates a quarter focused on digital media enterprise. Its other important aspects are learning, civic space and residential and retail.

The hub works closely with the people of the Liberties area who have a strong tradition and we are building on this tradition. We are also building a new enterprise cluster which is a new sector on digital media. Mr. Flynn will go through the detail of this. We hear a great deal about Dublin as a knowledge-based city and the Digital Hub is an example of where knowledge-based industries have grown and developed in an effective way.

The second element is the community and learning and the main focus of this is working with the 16 schools in the area and integrating the use of digital media into the curriculum. It is a good example of how effective this can be and what impact it can have on local schoolchildren and their parents. The second aspect of this addresses digital inclusion whereby community members, parents and grandparents work on using digital media in a practical way in ordinary life. This is important to us.

The third element is property development and regeneration. We are at a critical stage of development. We are transitioning towards being stand-alone and fully commercial in 2010. In 2012 we will break even and make a major contribution to the Exchequer. Bringing it all together, the Digital Hub and the agency's work is about creating this new quarter with new enterprise, a vibrant community and a view to the future which creates an environment where people can succeed and an ambience of excitement at both community and enterprise levels, where many things seem possible.

We talked briefly to the committee last week but would like to invite members to the digital hub because, while they may sense our excitement and commitment, seeing the hub itself will make it much more real.

Arrangements can be made with the clerk to the committee. I am sure the members would be happy to accept Ms O'Connor's invitation.

Mr. Philip Flynn

I am the chief executive of the agency. I have a very short presentation which will provide members with a structural overview of the agency, its current activities and the point it is at in its development.

We are a statutory agency, established in July 2003. The Act charges us with three major statutory objectives. The first is the creation of an enterprise cluster which is focused on digital media and specifically, that the cluster be located in the Liberties in Dublin. The Act also requires us to publish a development plan in consultation with the local community and specifies that the plan - which was published in November 2006 - should address community development issues. When we engaged in a consultation process at the very beginning of the project, it will not surprise members to know that the major points raised by the community related to education and employment. They wanted to see educational and employment benefits for the community as a consequence of the location of the agency in their midst. It is a strong passion of the executive team involved in the project that we leave a legacy of significant benefit to the local community in which we operate. The Act also charges us with the responsibility, viajoint venture concessions or other means, to create the property and infrastructure requirements of a successful digital media hub. Our job, quite simply, is to create an environment that will entice digital media people and companies to locate in the Liberties and to supply the necessary infrastructure.

Mr. Bill Gates, who has recently retired from his day job, coined the expression "the digital decade". Digital media has many definitions but in general, what we are about is the provision of digital products and services to a digitally connected global market. Such products and services come in many shapes and forms. There has been enormous growth in the sector during this decade. The Internet was established in 1991 and now has 1.5 billion users worldwide. That figure is projected to grow by 250 million every year for the next five or six years. Most of us here will have had experience of using the Internet to book airline tickets and holidays as well as for conducting research. Even within our own homes and families we can see the increasing use being made of the Internet. In order for the digital products and services to be provided on the Internet, an array of technologies, products and services are being developed by companies. The mobile phone is another major advance as the Internet goes mobile.

There are quite a number of companies in the digital hub working in animation and the creation and development of computer games, both for leisure and educational purposes. We also have quite an array of mobile technology companies located in the hub. It is, at its core, a technology cluster with a very significant creative element. We published a survey of our tenants relatively recently. We are delighted to be at a scale whereby we could actually conduct a meaningful survey, with 100 companies now operating in the hub. Approximately 30% of the cluster would describe themselves as being creative, with 45% to 50% describing themselves as technological. A key goal of ours is to bring about a fusion of creative and technology companies because we see that as being the real opportunity for Ireland Inc. in the future. It is an area in which we now have technology competence, built up over a few decades, beginning in the 1970s with the foreign direct investment of computer multinationals. We now have a very strong indigenous software sector and the next wave is where creative content will be introduced in combination with that technology competence. Members will agree that there is a creative bent in this country. In the context of digital media, that is the future or the upper end of the value chain, as it has been described.

We have provided members with a map to give them some indication of our location. Dublin-based members will be very familiar with the Liberties and those visiting will know that it is on the west side of the city, next door to St. James' Gate. We were provided, via the Office of Public Works, with six acres of property upon which to create the hub. That property was transferred to us on establishment day in July 2003. Effectively, we have two sites, one each on either side of Thomas Street.

When we started in 2003, there were no tenant companies. I had the pleasure of addressing a previous incarnation of this committee in 2005, when we had approximately 48 companies in place. Since then we have continued to move forward and as of last week we have 100 companies in the hub, with 750 employees.

The major focus for the executive and board now is to move to the point where we are totally self-financing. Our aim is to become a stand-alone organisation which does not require Exchequer support from January 2010 onwards. That has always been a goal of the agency and the project. We were 100% Exchequer funded at the beginning but have been reducing that gradually during the years. As of last year, Exchequer funding represented 36% of our total income.

Our goal, articulated in the development plan, is to have 250 to 300 companies in the hub and 2,500 to 3,000 employees by 2012. We cannot be any more definite than that because it will depend on available space and numbers of employees. At that point, we will not alone be self-funding but will generate surpluses. We intend that such surpluses will be returned as a dividend to the Exchequer, to be invested in community and learning programmes. Final decisions can be made when we have reached that point in our development.

We currently manage ten buildings in all, which are fully occupied at this point. We are at a stage where we have some future development plans in the planning process, anxiously waiting for approval. We received approval in two cases from Dublin City Council but both were appealed, by a single objector in each case, to An Bord Pleanála. We are expecting a final decision in September. A favourable decision will allow us to move forward from this point and build out the full 250,000 to 300,000 sq. ft. of office space needed to satisfy the strong demand. We have 160,000 sq. ft., of which 80,000 sq. ft. is owned by the agency or the OPW. A further 80,000 sq. ft. is leased from local landlords. The buildings for the centre are owned by us, while those at the outer rim, with the exception of the Digital Depot, are under lease arrangements. I hope members will agree that significant progress has been made.

The hub has attracted 100 companies and 750 employees. We released our survey last Monday to a positive reception. I was delighted to see Deputy McManus in attendance at the launch. The optimism and confidence of the CEOs of these companies are evident from the survey. Approximately 80% of these companies are at an early stage in their development, so it is a very entrepreneurial and creative environment. Based on their anticipation of future work, the CEOs forecast growth projections of 35% in revenue and head count growth. That is an interesting tonic in these times of difficulty. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources described us as a green shoot which heralds the future for enterprise growth in Ireland.

The Digital Hub has a positive 9:1 ratio of permanent to temporary employees and 85% of employees are at level six, post-leaving certificate level, or higher. Our export profile is also significant, with export revenues of greater than 50% in more than 50% of companies. Levels of innovation and collaboration are also high. The data provided to us indicate 80% to 90% innovation levels in products and technologies and in processes and business practices. Significant collaboration is taking place within companies and between companies and their suppliers and other partners. It is a hive of exciting and new entrepreneurial activity and I hope members of the committee will have an opportunity to see this at first hand. Some 20% of the companies have a turnover of more than €1 million and, according to our estimates, spending has increased by €45 million in the past six years. The equivalent value of revenues emerging from the cluster is of the order of €300 million to €400 million.

Our target by 2012 is to have 250 to 300 companies with 2,500 to 3,000 knowledge jobs. We estimate a real economic impact to the Liberties from a payroll of €150 million and revenues of €500 million per annum. This will predominantly be earned from exports because the confidence level of these companies is high in terms of growing exports and they have a track record in this regard. We also want to reverse the balance of 30% indigenous firms and 70% FDI. We are trying to demonstrate a visionary showcase project for Ireland Inc.

Professor O'Connor mentioned the importance of learning and community engagement. The bulk of our community engagement is through the learning programmes we deliver to people of all ages in community centres and the 16 schools in the area. We have initiated a very interesting project, Digital Hub FM, which is a local radio station. Some of the senior citizens who have come through the programme previously had difficulties with video recorders, yet they now feel comfortable presenting radio programmes. The consultation process we adopted won an Eircom innovation in government award and there has been strong demand for participation in our courses. Last year, 3,282 people attended courses, although a number attended several courses. We have developed a learning studio which, at a few thousand square feet in size, is relatively modest but has high occupancy rates. It acts as an access point for the local community. Part of our plan is to develop a fully fledged learning studio by 2012 as a legacy for the community.

In regard to property and infrastructure, the hub comprises two sites to the north and the south of James Street. We are in contract with two developers, P. Elliot and Company and Manor Park Homebuilders. These contracts, which were signed in November 2005, commit the developers to providing us 140,000 sq. ft. of digital media buildings and €45.7 million in cash payments. When the tender was constructed, minimum figures were set for space and cash and the developers opted to bid the minimum in space and provide the balance in cash. The Government decision which established the agency allows us to use that cash for the purchase of further properties and offices for the project as required. It is a contractual stipulation that planning permission must be achieved by 2009 or else the contracts are void. The hub buildings must be delivered within three years of the grant of planning permission, so if we are successful with An Bord Pleanála by September 2008, the buildings must be delivered by September 2011. In the meantime, we are pursuing an interim strategy by leasing buildings and we will take more if the commercial rationale is strong enough to maintain the momentum of the project until the buildings are delivered. Our major challenge is to transition to the point at which the buildings are delivered. A significant asset value will be retained by the Government on completion of the project.

I will now give a short summary of the returns on investment and quantify the assets. The slide before members contains two columns, one of which shows the nominal figures, that is, the actual moneys received, while the other shows the net present value, which converts to a current comparable value the flows of cash between 2000, when the first money was received, and 2012. The Government outlaid €56.5 million on properties and has given €18 million to the agency in the past eight years. The total investment has been €74.6 million. The figure of €18.1 million includes commitments we have received from the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources for 2008 and 2009. When the project is complete and the buildings delivered, aside from those currently in our ownership which we will retain, we will have a net asset value of €146 million in 2012. There is a nominal return of €70 million, which is 100% of the moneys outlaid, but in net present value terms the return will be 42%, or €37.4 million. I think members will agree that is a significant figure and it is a pleasure to look at such numbers.

This project is unlike other PPP models in which the asset is transferred in return for some form of service commitment. This is one where the actual asset is retained. We have the opportunity to add value to it to the point where the Government will have flexibility in determining how to use it. We will continue to add value while we are there, up to 2012 and beyond.

The final slide gives an overall summary. The vision is to create a centre for digital media innovation, creativity and learning that will affect and drive economic and social regeneration. The fundamental premise of the project is that a focus on enterprise development in an area like the Liberties, which has been disadvantaged for some time, will add significant thrust to the development of the community and to urban and socio-economic regeneration.

I thank Mr. Flynn for a comprehensive presentation. At a time when we are getting bad news from all sides it is good to hear a success story, on which I commend him.

I extend a warm welcome to the delegation which has joined us this morning and thank it for the presentation, which was enlightening. I am sorry that the delegates had to come back here a week later but that is how things can happen.

It seems that this is a real success story and a premier model. I am not surprised by this as a number of those involved are from my county, the premier county, Tipperary.

Mr. Philip Flynn

They are assisting on the project.

Perhaps this is where some of the initiative is coming from. This seems to be a role model for success as there are now 100 companies and 750 people involved. Is it possible that a similar role model could be set up in the country, a clone model?

Mr. Philip Flynn

Absolutely. We believe that any of the learning we have taken from the successful creation of this cluster can be disseminated elsewhere. We are satisfied that we have a model that works, although there are unique aspects to it, for example, it is an inner city location. It is important that it be city-based because that is attractive to employees but once that is a premise it could be translated elsewhere. We are already in discussion with many regions; we have not had conversations with representatives of Tipperary but we have had conversations with representatives of the institutes of technology in Waterford, Sligo, Donegal and Galway. Our goal is that the hub should be a hub for Ireland with satellite connections elsewhere. This would benefit everyone because people, for lifestyle reasons, may wish to live in the country. I applaud this because I am from the country but there is always a need in developing a business to visit the city and there is no good reason that we should not have a hot desk facility. I have always said that, with mobile phone and Internet usage, this is a world of bricks and clicks; the bricks may be in the Liberties but the clicks can be anywhere. We are trying to develop the model in that fashion.

I suggest that we take all the questions first and then come to the delegates for answers.

Professor Joyce O’Connor

Can I just follow up on this question of a model?

Yes. We will then have members ask all their questions and take a comprehensive reply from the delegates.

Professor Joyce O’Connor

Another area where there is a definite model is the area of learning and the integration of digital media in the curriculum. We have a good model of what has happened in the 16 schools involved in the hub and this presents a challenge to the rest of the country. It is a good model that looks at the involvement of teachers, students and parents and there is much to be learned in this regard, irrespective of what part of the country one is in. This has been very successful.

I was going to follow on because there is an institute of technology in Thurles, County Tipperary, and Deputy Ciarán Lynch is very interested in the field. When mention was made of the 16 schools in the community it occurred to me that, with digital technology, the programme could be extended. Is there contact between the delegates and the institute of technology in Thurles? Taxpayers' money was invested in this when it was set up in 2003 and I am sure the delegates agree that they have delivered everything that has been asked of them. Are they satisfied that value for money has been achieved in the form of a financial return and that justice has been done regarding the investment by taxpayers?

There are now 100 companies involved in the Digital Hub and by 2012 it is expected that there will be 300 companies employing 3,000 people between them. We have heard the good news story about the hub but most of the people who come before the committee have problems that they want solved, often regarding a lack of space or finance. Do the delegates have or anticipate any problems due to the economic downturn or any future factors?

I wish the delegates continued success.

I welcome the delegates and I am impressed by the Digital Hub. The idea of having a centre to combine innovation, education and urban regeneration is unique. I would love to ask whether Mr. Flynn is ever mistaken for the other Phil Flynn but I will not.

Mr Flynn is not obliged to answer that question.

Mr. Philip Flynn

I will just say that we both arrived at the same meeting about three years ago.

He may pass on that question. I was not the Labour Party's spokesperson when the legislation came before the House, so I am not familiar with the structure of the hub, but I presume there is a board and that is the current model. When it is on its feet and independent, without State subsidies, will there be a change in the hub? It has built up a magnificent range of property assets. Will there be changes in the future relationship with the State?

This is a growth activity, which is encouraging given the approaching hard times, but presumably some companies fail as others prosper. What are the statistics in this regard and how is failure dealt with?

We went to UCD recently with another committee to speak to people doing research on electricity and their biggest problem was that they could not get students, good, bad or indifferent, to become involved in the sector. We are talking about creative people and this is an attractive area. Do the delegates link up with third level institutions or do they find that people simply want to get involved in this and do not need to be force-fed?

I apologise for being late. I welcome the delegates. I congratulate them on their ongoing work, which has given us something to consider in terms of best practice in building critical mass in information technology. This area is a broad spectrum.

I will be specific. My first question is similar to Deputy Coonan's because we all seek to look after our own patches. The idea of a digital hub between Letterkenny and Derry city has been spoken of and a cross-Border group is working in this area, I particularly refer to the Eirnet group. We have the ideal physical and educational infrastructure; there is Magee College in Derry, Letterkenny Institute of Technology and I should not leave Sligo out. There is a sort of triangle with regard to the possibility of building something like this. Are there legislative proposals that could be considered at a national level to entice or encourage SMEs to enter into a project such as this or encourage people to set up their own SMEs?

We are all trying to get the economy going again and to drive our export market. We have been very weak in this area in the past five to six years. Are there legislative changes we could introduce which would allow people to invest? We all believe that the banks are not giving money and that people do not have money, but the reality is that there are still people out there with money who are not going to go into the stock market or into property and who are afraid to put their money into certain areas. Are there legislative proposals we could consider which would encourage people with money - not just in Ireland, as we have a widely distributed diaspora - to invest in such projects? They would obtain a minimal return on their investment, because there would be an ideological aspect to investing back in Ireland. People are holding on to their money and are looking for avenues for investment.

Ar an gcéad dul síos, iarraim ar ionadaithe Gníomhaireacht Fhorbartha an Mhoil Dhigitigh mo leithscéal a ghabháil os rud é go raibh mé déanach don cruinniú seo. Cuirim fáilte rompu go dtí an cruinniú seo, go mórmhór as ucht an taispeántas a chuir siad os ár gcomhair um thráthnóna. I am sorry I was not here for the earlier part of the presentation. The Digital Hub is about helping people to help themselves, which is a concept on which we need to lay more emphasis, particularly in view of the current global economic difficulties.

There are 100 companies operating as part of the project. I know the project is in its early stages but 750 employees seems a small number for 100 companies, with an average of 7.5 employees per company. It is good to see that 50% of the companies represent more than 50% of the exports. That is what we need to be doing because we need to concentrate on foreign earnings. It was stated that 80% of the companies are at an early stage, which might explain some of it. I am also surprised that the turnover seems quite low. Only 20% of the companies have a turnover of more than €1 million. Could we have an idea of the number of employees and the turnover of the largest employer? I assume one of the aims is to allow some of the companies to grow to a critical mass so that there will be significant levels of employment.

The application of Exchequer funds is heading for about €75 million, which, on the basis of 750 employees, represents €100,000 per job created. I presume much of this relates to fixed costs for items that will be there to service future growth without a commensurate add-on to the jobs. The Digital Hub Development Agency is a statutory agency. How does it compare to some of the other agencies in terms of costs? Could we have a comparison of the figure of €100,000 to what is happening elsewhere? The jobs would not be of as good a quality, but certainly enterprise boards and similar initiatives around the country would be operating at a far lower cost per job. The witnesses might comment on that aspect.

I do not have any questions but I could not let the occasion go without welcoming Professor Joyce O'Connor, Dr. Stephen Brennan and Mr. Philip Flynn. Their presentation speaks for itself. I visited the hub as a member of the last committee and it was well worth while. It was eye-opening to see the wonderful work that is being done there and the progress that has been made. I look forward to visiting again and I recommend that people go down and take a look. The reputations of the people involved are well known in the modern world of technology in which we live. We are lucky that we have people of this calibre who have the drive, commitment and dedication to create something successful of which we can be proud. This is the way forward.

The Digital Hub Development Agency is more than essential in the modern world. It was a great idea at the time. It takes a while to get things moving but they are now heading in the right direction. I did not expect it to be so successful so soon as I thought the projects would take a little longer. I look forward to seeing the representatives again. I have found that whenever the digital hub is mentioned the names of Professor O'Connor and Mr. Flynn always come up. I wish them well in the continuation of their work and I have every confidence in them. I can assure members that the Digital Hub Development Agency is in safe hands.

Has the location of the Digital Hub in the heart of Dublin been a constraint on the expansion or progression of the project? Is it a template that could be used in other towns or urban areas around the country?

Mr. Philip Flynn

I thank the Chairman. There is a range of questions and we will share them out as appropriate. We are delighted to have the opportunity to answer these questions, some of which are linked.

Senator Walsh raised some challenging questions whose answers will help to explain aspects such as the employee ratio. This is explained by the fact that the companies are at an early stage and are still growing. There are some companies with 50, 60 or 70 employees but the average is seven to eight. That is consistent with national and international data. The question of low turnover is related. Again, the companies are at an early stage of development. Some of the companies have grown quite significantly. One company called Zamano joined only four years ago with a turnover of less than €1 million, but its turnover is now more than €50 million. It has managed to acquire a couple of companies in the meantime and has gone public and we are able to draw some investment funds to fund that growth.

The cost per job is a question I am happy to discuss but it is not the only issue. There are a few important points to be considered. One is that, as the Senator correctly pointed out, the investment is fixed, so the property remains for the use of as many jobs as we can create. Our goal is 3,000 jobs. That money is not expended but remains as a Government asset. One could perhaps make an argument about the operational funding that has been spent but the operational funding is focused not just on enterprise, but also on learning and community and on the development of properties as assets. It is a uniquely holistic project and one would need to isolate the costs that are applicable purely to the jobs side of it. I would be happy that they would measure up to those of any other agency involved in this area. We can provide these figures if the committee so wishes.

I thank Deputy Coonan for his positive comments. I reiterate that the model is translatable. This is a point that was raised by the Chairman. The Deputy asked about problems. I do not know whether the Chairman would like to make additional comments in this regard but from the board's perspective, in general, there are always problems. One of the fortunate aspects of developing a bit of grey hair is that one does not expect to be without problems. My mother, who is still with us, thank God, says that if one does not expect too much one will not be disappointed and that is a country way of approaching it. There is a series of problems that we have successfully managed and there are obstacles to overcome. We see that as our role, being resourceful in the face of whatever unexpected problems there may be. We have had difficulties with the planning process but we are no different from anybody else. The process takes time and we are subject to that as is everybody else. The only point I would make is the time delay factor. We had a setback when An Bord Pleanála refused our first application last year and it took a year or 14 months to get a decision. If the refusal had been with us within three or four months we would have saved that time and been able to move to plan B. We find ourselves some years into the project still waiting for Godot, for that significant thrust forward of the new build to sit beside the existing buildings and really fill out the project. We are quietly confident and optimistic that will all flow.

The other problematic area is in the realm of funding. One must accept that one is only as good as one's last milestone, date or presentation. In these difficult times we fully accept that funding must be consistently and repetitively justified. From the outset our only goal was to focus on results and hope that in delivering those we would earn continuing credit to receive the funding that we need to get to that point of self-funding.

The Government is very much like a venture capitalist with us. This is a point that Deputy McManus raised and perhaps we can examine it presently. I take the view that the Government is investing in us for an expected return and has a right to expect a significant return from its investment, as has the taxpayer. As with any venture capital relationship with a tenant or an enterprise client the Government must watch closely and be assured that set milestones are being reached. If at any stage the point is reached where it is cheaper for the Government to withdraw than to continue putting more in, one must be must be cognisant of that. Happily we have never been at that point. We have managed to continue delivering key performance indicators, KPIs, and have a performance contract with our Department, being one of the first agencies to have such established. The contract sets out clear KPI deliverables for us to produce over the course of the project and we see that as the charge on us.

Concerning our structure, the agency is a non-commercial semi-State body. We have always been this hybrid and because we are unique and holistic, and because all of that is good, an interesting structural governance is created. It is, officially, a non-commercial semi-State body on a path to becoming commercial. No decisions have been made and there is no legislative plan to change our status but if that point is reached it would become de facto a commercial semi-State body.

There are key points in the programme, for example, 2011-2012, which will be an important stage for strategic review of governance and structure as we look to the next phase. For the moment, the current structure and governance satisfy our requirements. There are difficulties as one would expect in a relatively modest agency that tries to deal in a entrepreneurial way within the system we all know and love. That creates its own challenges and we manage that happily. We believe that the problems we encounter are not insurmountable.

Finance will always be an issue, as it would be for an independent company, until we get to the point of stand-alone control when we have more money coming in than going out. That is where we want to reach and we need some additional Exchequer funds to get to that point. As best we understand, this funding is committed to us and is budgeted for by the Department for 2009. After that we will need the authority to be able to borrow on the strength of our assets as any small enterprise must do, to be able to fund our growth.

Professor Joyce O’Connor

The mix of the board is very good in terms of structure. We have the heads of the agency, the IDA, Enterprise Ireland, the HEA and Dublin City Council and an array of board members from business and education, representatives of the community and one of the companies. It is a very good structure. Regarding problems, the board is very committed and focused and we can work through these, with the board in place and the expertise and resources it has. We are dealing with people working in the general area who have a commitment to the project and it works very well.

In terms of planning, I reiterate what Mr. Flynn said. That is a process we had to go through and I believe we have managed it really well. Our commercial director, Ms Edel Quinn, has achieved that. We had to work with Diageo, for instance, and with local people in getting accommodation. The focus has always been that bigger goal of 2012 and getting there and I believe we can do it. There is very strong support from the board and commitment to that goal.

On the funding issues, I support what Mr. Flynn said. These issues are always present and I would be very surprised if there were never an issue of funding because people always create a challenge. We have created a vehicle which is about investment. It may be a slightly different model from a full State body where people get 100% funding from the Exchequer. We see this as an investment in which we not only give something back to the State but we demonstrate a really strong commitment to the area. We feel we have another vehicle to invest in the area in a way that perhaps may not happen.

We see the problems as opportunities. I know that may seem trite but they really have given us the opportunity to show this different model. As we move towards 2011-2012 we may wish to look at the model and see if it is still successful. It really works very well with the array of people on the board and the executive and in the way everything works together.

Mr. Philip Flynn

I shall take a few more questions and if I forget anyone I ask to be reminded.

The Chairman asked about location and Deputies Coonan and McHugh made related points. Our location in the Liberties has not been an disadvantage in any way, rather it has been a significant advantage. It is about the quality of a community's identity and where we are has a worldwide branding potential, to use business speak. The Liberties area is regarded fondly by Dubliners and has a heritage and a history. The authenticity of that heritage and history is very important to the proposition that we make and is very attractive to the companies we hope will participate. There is a degree to which the location is "cool". It is a cool place to be and that association is allied to the technologies, products and services and to the history evident in the very buildings and the cobbled streetscapes of that city quarter. That is very important and is a positive advantage in our efforts to attract companies to come there. That mix of the modern and the traditional, the heritage and the contemporary, is very important. It captures the ethos with which many people who work on this project identify.

Deputy McHugh made a specific point about a possible hub within the triangle of Sligo, Letterkenny and Derry, an area very dear to my heart. There is no good reason at all this could not be but I am not aware of any specific legislative plans in place. When we are ready a next phase for us would be to work together with parties in such areas. We can certainly help. There is need for focused satellites in this area and we are hoping to encourage this and act as a catalyst for the development of a national sector. In that context, the 100 companies operating there represent, according to available data, one sixth of the total number of such companies nationally. Digital Media Forum, a trade body, estimates that there are some 600 companies nationally in this space and that this number is growing. There is a real opportunity to build a strong connection. Our statutory objective focuses our efforts on this sector and related activities. I recognise the opportunity to have satellite operations in other parts of the country connected to us physically and electronically.

Professor Joyce O’Connor

To add to Mr. Flynn's remarks on development in the regions, if one is trying to build a creative region, one builds on its heritage. It may take a different form. We are especially interested in exploring the arts and culture sectors and the way they use technology. We believe these sectors are growing and that Ireland could give a lead. They are at the leading edge. Their development could be linked to the knowledge and expertise of the hub to create the infrastructure. Regarding the comments of the Chairman and others, this model could be remodelled to suit the strengths of a local area using digital technology. I will ask Dr. Brennan to comment on this as he is familiar with the matter.

There have been comments on legislative changes. There is a Canadian model dealing with investment and taxation. Ontario has created a tax structure for digital media companies and several UK companies have begun to relocate there. This may be a worthwhile option and we could examine the model and the options and discuss the issue with the committee. As we develop, we may wish to explore the areas in which we could provide investment, support and focus, as this is a new area that can be developed. Perhaps Dr. Brennan will comment on these matters.

I apologise that I must leave to attend another meeting.

Dr. Stephen Brennan

To follow on from the idea of translating the Digital Hub model, I face the market every day and seek companies to recruit for the Digital Hub, both nationally and internationally. We have found there is a requirement for such companies to have a place for their people who are the critical asset in digital media products and services, as Mr. Flynn mentioned. One of our strategies has been to focus on creating an atmosphere or climate for people in the Digital Hub. This applies whether the people are entrepreneurs, researchers or employees. Those elements of the Digital Hub model are applicable not only in the digital media sector but in other areas of industry too and we have found this strategy can translate. Internationally, the Digital Hub is seen as a model for a people-centric approach. We have more than 50 international delegations per year visiting the project and examining the model we have adapted to develop innovation, collaboration, research and enterprise connections. These approaches are applicable in different geographical areas, not only in Ireland but internationally. The urban centre is important for a creative industry. We have seen a model in the United Kingdom connecting creative people working from home with companies operating from office space. There is great synergy in this creative space.

Digital media is a $1.5 trillion international, global business and it is essential for Ireland to create a critical mass of digital media. This applies not only to the Digital Hub, but also to the entire island. It is essential to create a place where international investment, whether from publishing houses in north America or electronic production in Asia, will decide to invest. The formation of a critical mass by connecting those 600 plus companies will be important for putting Ireland on the map for digital media. One of the challenges is to establish that critical mass. We need investment which is capable of not only financially investing in business but which also has the expertise in the marketplace to allow those businesses to accelerate and grow. This includes expertise in the north America publishing space, electronic platforms from Asia, outsourcing production capabilities in different geographical locations and being close to customers with global digital media products and services. These are the areas in which Ireland must develop expertise in order to drive international financiers with expertise in this area to work with our companies and develop and grow them.

To address the point on investment per head, the Digital Hub operates in an environment requiring it to grow organically. It is a digital media cluster or set of enterprises. We do not necessarily have the capability to attract organisations with specific, low taxation measures; therefore, we must encourage companies to come for business reasons. We must sell every one of the companies. Therefore, an investment is required to develop the critical mass to attract companies. This investment remains the same, whether there are 100, 250 or 300 companies, as the critical mass we create among that cluster will be the main reason companies will wish to set up, locate and grow their business in the Digital Hub and the reason international investment will be attracted.

Is that foreign direct investment?

Dr. Stephen Brennan

It is foreign direct investment but also for indigenous companies. Indigenous companies must have, as Mr. Flynn pointed out, the ability to get a product from Dublin or a region to an international marketplace in Asia or the USA. It is essential for that company to have the appropriate environment, whether through electronic communications technologies or partners. The ability to have access to very large publishers such as Amazon or France Telecom will allow them to deliver their product into a remote marketplace. That infrastructure and critical mass of connections are very important. To date, the Digital Hub has tried to cede that critical mass. However, as the quantum of activity grows, it becomes more and more attractive and we can open discussions with more and more significant players in that space, as there is a reason for them to talk to us.

Mr. Philip Flynn

Deputy McManus asked a question about the failure percentage, to which we have adverted. Fortuitously, our failure percentage has been low. In the first six months of the operation there were eight companies and we lost two. I initially thought if that was the way it was going to work out, there would be problems. However, the employees of those two companies were acquired by another company and many of them are still in other companies in the hub. We have been fortunate in that respect and have not had the degree of failure one might have expected for such high risk early stage companies. That is not to say, however, there will not be five or six failures next year; one can never tell for sure. At this stage the scale of critical mass is sufficient that the failure percentage is not a source of significant concern for us. We have a close relationship with our cluster companies, ensuring visibility into their business and how they are managing. We know the companies which struggle to secure a market foothold and build their business. We also know the companies which we believe are free and clear at this stage, although no one is ever fully free and clear. Dr. Brennan might come in on a specific question Deputy McHugh had about funding. It emerged from our survey that funding is a big challenge for the companies. He asked how one might incentivise funding arrangements but in an environment where the area is considered risky the investors are wary of what they do not understand. It is important to try and create an environment where that can be addressed.

Dr. Stephen Brennan

In terms of failure rates it is important to understand that although small enterprises are always at risk in terms of cash flow and so on, the people they employ are highly mobile and specialised. Deputy McManus made a comment on the ability of our companies and the Digital Hub to attract people and our connections with third level. Industry growth has seen us attract 600 companies; this is a national industry and the demand for people is very high, particularly for specialists. What we have found is there is a high degree of mobility between organisations. A small company may terminate its operations but it is highly likely the employees in that company will be subsumed into another organisation. I think it is imperative for the Digital Hub and the Digital Hub enterprise cluster to continue to enhance its connection with third level institutions. One of the things we absolutely need to have is a steady stream of very talented, creative and innovative graduates who are familiar with the need to be creative, technically competent and able to operate in a team atmosphere. We really are at the cutting edge in terms of the definition of a knowledge industry here. Although that knowledge is deep in particular areas, the ability of those individuals to be able to work with and complement their skills in organisations, particularly small organisations, is very important.

In terms of investment, our cluster of companies alone will need to have, according to their own data, in excess of €65 million in the next two years to achieve their growth targets. There is a very significant industry that needs to grow and find investment. From Ireland's perspective, one of the critical things we need to do is provide an environment for those investment experts to be here making investments. We are competing internationally. One example is Cambridge in the UK. It has a well defined ecosystem around investment where a significant proportion of EU investment funds are being invested in very small geographical areas and the experts are there in digital media who have a deep knowledge of the trends in the industry, whether it be animation, gaming, TV production or film special effects. That is the sort of investors and investment climate this industry and the Digital Hub will need to continue to expand its enterprise cluster. Those key experts will be able to help those companies grow in international markets because, as the Deputies pointed out, this is fundamentally an export business and enterprise and having that access would be very important.

Can I just ask what kind of supports are given? These are incubator companies which are starting out and they may have great creative and technical expertise, but perhaps the business acumen and skills to run a business are lacking. What supports are provided in areas such as accounting, marketing etc.? What kind of financial aid is given? Is there subsidised accommodation, grants or loans? I am trying to think of the name of one of the agencies that was very good; I think it was an offshoot of IDA at one stage. It set up a venture capital scheme where it invested directly in equity or in preference shares, so if there was an upside with the company it could ride on that and got the return back. It sold off to private investors subsequently. Are the members of the delegation involved in that area or have they plans in this regard?

Mr. Philip Flynn

The short, direct answer is we are not, because it is important we do not overlap with or duplicate the work of other agencies operating in this area. Regarding incubation, while we have tenants and companies which are in incubation, they deal directly with Enterprise Ireland for those supports outlined. We work with Enterprise Ireland to ensure there is a good working relationship. Our remit is specifically addressed in the Act and it is about ensuring we create a successful digital hub in the Liberties that will have knock-on benefits to learning and community.

It may surprise the Deputies to know, as my colleague Dr. Brennan alluded to, that we do not offer any financial incentives. In the beginning we thought that was a disadvantage because of the example of the IFSC and the considerable benefit of being able to offer tax benefits. There are no additional financial benefits to coming to the Digital Hub beyond those that apply to locating in Ireland generally. What we have to do is create a benefit of place that is attractive from a business proposition perspective so that an entrepreneur, small company or FDI will see the value of coming to the Digital Hub. Last year our small team was very pleased to win a new investment from France Telecom. It created a new division called GOA Games Services. The IDA was working with it, and there was national and international competition. We played a part in presenting to France Telecom and it made a decision to come and locate in the Digital Hub because of all the benefits Dr. Brennan has outlined, such as the presence of the skill base and the collaborative atmosphere in the area. I am happy to say it is currently running a significant recruitment drive. It has employed more than 100 people already and I know it intends to double that within six months. We are looking forward to that. We have that balance of being part of both sides of the equation.

A specific point was made about a venture fund. That is something we would certainly lobby for. We think there is a need for a specialist enterprise fund in this particular area. It may be possible at a point when we have surpluses that dividend could be looked upon in that fashion and we could use some of those surpluses to create such a fund, perhaps in conjunction with Enterprise Ireland or private investors. Those structures and funds are in place by Enterprise Ireland. We need to ensure that if there is an entrepreneur who has particular knowledge, he is able to talk to a financier or somebody with money who understands what he is talking about and is willing to put his money down because he sees the benefit of the return and believes in the actual product or service area in which the entrepreneur is operating.

Professor Joyce O’Connor

I will go back to Deputy McHugh's point on policy issues. We are working with the Institute of European Affairs on a project called Digital Futures, which is policy related. That report will be ready at the end of October. We could forward it to the committee. It will cover an array of issues including the questions raised by Senator Walsh and Deputies Coonan and McManus on how to best develop this area. As Dr. Brennan has explained, it is a new area. It is a different kind of investment because of the nature of the creativity and what is required.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Professor O'Connor, Mr. Flynn, Dr. Brennan, Mr. Ryan, Ms Quinn, Ms Flynn and Mr. McDermott for the presentation. It was worth our while to have the delegation back for a second time. It took two attempts but I think the members were impressed by what was said. It is interesting to note they are not just competing, but are competing successfully, internationally. That is a good message to hear. We look forward to visiting the Liberties.

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