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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Jun 2009

Current Financial Situation: Discussion with RTE.

I welcome Mr. Cathal Goan, director general, Mr. Conor Hayes, chief financial officer and Mr. Kevin Dawson, head of corporate communications to the committee meeting. The joint committee has invited representatives of RTE to the meeting to discuss the financial situation in RTE.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing. Further, under salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Goan to make his presentation.

Mr. Cathal Goan

Go raibh maith agat. Tá mé buíoch den Chathaoirleach agus de chomhaltaí an chomhchoiste as an deis seo a thabhairt dúinn arís teacht i láthair chun cúrsaí craolacháin a phlé agus chun díriú go háirithe ar dhul chun cinn RTE ag an tráth chorrach seo in imeachtaí náisiúnta agus idirnáisiúnta. Is maith a thuigim ról agus tábhacht obair na gcoistí Oireachtais seo i bhforbairt reachtaíochta stuama agus i gcraobhscaoileadh tuisceana aibí ar cheisteanna casta a bhaineann le leas an phobail. Tá súil agam go mbeidh an cur i láthair seo ina chuidiú.

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to speak to them again. I appreciate the understanding and co-operation in re-arranging this meeting when we were unable to meet at the first scheduled time. RTE's annual report for 2008 is, I understand, awaiting Government approval, so there are some detailed aspects of RTE performance during that year which I will not go into, but in general I welcome this opportunity to set out and put on the record some facts relating to how the current global economic downturn is affecting RTE in the conduct of its business.

This is also, I hope, a welcome opportunity to correct some very significant misunderstandings which have arisen in the recent weeks in the public arena with regard to RTE's finances. For instance, there is absolutely no truth in the story which has featured in recent press coverage of RTE that it faces bankruptcy and-or a deficit of €100 million.

There is no denying, as we have publicly stated, that we are in a very difficult place, but it is not the crisis portrayed in other media. It would be a crisis if we had not identified the scale of the challenge we all face because of the national and international recession and if we had not clearly signalled the proactive ways in which we intend to deal with it. I will go into further detail about just that presently, but I would like first to set all of these current events within a context and a broader appreciation of the role of RTE and our discharge of our responsibilities.

As the Chairman knows, over the years there have been frequent debates in Ireland around the optimum model for the maintenance of healthy public service broadcasting in a pluralist media environment. This committee contributed greatly to that debate in its deliberations over the Broadcasting Bill which is currently on Report Stage and which, when enacted, will represent the most significant overhaul in broadcasting legislation for many years.

Prior to the current debate occasioned by the formulation and passage of this Bill, some seven years ago the Government established a forum on broadcasting which consulted widely, received submissions and held public sessions about developments in and the desired future for Irish broadcasting.

In August of that year the forum reported to the then Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources with 44 recommendations, which addressed a range of issues from public service broadcasting, to digital television, regulation for all broadcasters licensed in Ireland, a broadcasting charter for RTE, the dual funding model for public service broadcasting, independent production, Irish language broadcasting, the place of RTE's performing groups within public service broadcasting and so forth.

To a greater or lesser extent those recommendations have been mirrored or reflected in the current legislation. The overriding significance of the forum on broadcasting in 2002 remains the fact it did something that is done all too seldom. The forum was that rare thing, namely, an open debate on a question of value. The question was what kind of broadcasting we need to serve our community, and there was a related and inescapable question, that is, how to pay for that broadcasting.

As result of the forum's recommendations, the Government announced at the end of 2002 a significant licence fee increase, the greatest proportion of which was to be awarded to RTE, with a number of conditions attaching and subject to annual review. In return, RTE committed to additional and enhanced television, radio and news content, a new accountability regime, a commitment to change management and improved financial management.

Subsequently, the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources conducted four independent reviews over six years, using external consultants, to assess RTE's performance with regard to achieving its budget targets, fulfilment of programming and corporate commitments and the implementation of change management initiatives. In all four cases RTE's performance was such as to lead to the approval of further licence fee increases, albeit at a much lower level and well below the consumer price index.

In setting this arrangement in place the Government had sought to recognise that, in Ireland, a balance between public and commercial funding was the best approach to funding public service broadcasting and this was best achieved by regular review of the licence fee level in the context of RTE's delivery on its public service commitments. It also recognised that this review should be independent of the immediate political process. This remains the philosophy for RTE funding envisaged in the new broadcasting legislation in order to buttress independent and strong public service broadcasting.

In the years since 2003, RTE has delivered on the commitments entered into in 2002 and this has been independently verified four times. As well as enjoying increased public funding, RTE saw a significant rise in its income from commercial activities, particularly in television and radio advertising revenue. As had been signalled from 2002, this additional income has been channelled into increased content creation, both within RTE and in the independent production centre. As members will recall from RTE's last presentation to this committee, production spend in the independent sector increased from €32 million in 2002 to €77 million in 2007. Independent and in-house production have seen a total rise of over 20% on our screens. They have meant more investigative current affairs, more reporting on international affairs with an Irish news perspective, more quality original Irish drama, more children's programming originated in Ireland and more wide ranging and ambitious factual and arts programming.

In tandem, radio programming grew in its depth and variety, as also committed to in 2002. Each year since then, RTE has published a statement of content commitments across all its areas of activity, including radio, television, news and current affairs and performing groups. In almost all cases it has met those commitments, whether it be in the areas I have already mentioned or new writing and drama for radio, new commissions for Irish composers, touring with the two RTE orchestras across the length and breadth of the country or support for TG4. This increase in activity is not only a function of the welcome increases in television licence fee revenues but is also very much a product of the expanding economy and very buoyant advertising revenue. One would not have happened without the other.

Another condition of the 2002 licence fee decision has been met fully in the publication of very detailed analysis and financial reporting in each of the RTE annual reports submitted to Government since then. Uniquely among western European broadcasters, RTE publishes an income statement for each of its services and sets out clearly its publicly-funded and commercial activities. Rigorous oversight of the use of public funding is entirely appropriate when RTE is called to account for its activities. I believe we have anticipated those oversight requirements and in many instances have acted before national or international regulation required in order to achieve improved transparency.

Equally important to the future welfare of broadcasting, which is funded in part from the public, is the opinion of the public itself. Our most immediate guides to this are the respective shares of audience enjoyed by each of RTE's services. Fragmentation is the order of the day in all broadcast media as new services are licensed by national regulators and digital distribution brings hundreds of television channels and services to Irish homes. While RTE faces very stiff competition from national and international television services and from vibrant local and national commercial radio, the performance of RTE's services with the listeners and viewers has borne out the central premise of the 2002 licence fee decision to support investment in content creation. In digital television homes — now well over 50% of homes surveyed — RTE's share of viewing in peak time increased year on year up to the end of May 2009.

In radio, as members know, the story has been more mixed. RTE 2FM, which does not draw on licence fee funding, has suffered more protracted loss of audience share but it does compete in the most hotly contested arena for 15-35 year old audiences and we are taking steps to address this decline, even in this depressed market. RTE Radio 1 has arrested decline and has succeeded in increasing its share and reach of audiences across most day parts in successive recent official listenership surveys. I am not recording these increases in viewing and listening with any complacency. These successes have been hard won and are due to many factors, including access to better funding, better use of creative talent, greater efficiency in our own programming and in what we have commissioned from the independent television sector, a keener sense of audience expectation and a willingness to give new talent a chance to develop.

Each of the annual reports to which I have referred for this period showed RTE generating a modest surplus. This money was intended to be set aside for the major investment we have always signalled as required to achieve the orderly transfer to a completely digital environment, from initial recording, to production and post-production and to distribution, whether that is via satellite, cable or the digital terrestrial television infrastructure which RTE is required to establish. In the last published annual report for 2007, I signalled a concern about the likely downturn and indicated RTE would have to have serious regard to its rising cost base, notwithstanding all the indicators of successful performance I have already mentioned.

So it transpired. By April-May of last year we identified early indications of a potential downturn in advertising revenue brought on by the general cooling worldwide. In mid-summer we indicated to staff through the trade union group that we were concerned about achieving our budgeted outturn. We promised to revert with firm forecasts in September and, with proposals to address the projected shortfall, in June we projected a revenue gap of €25 million despite a good first-half performance. As it transpired, the shortfall by December came to €26 million. We had taken steps to address it, including immediately cancelling any performance-related payments to management grades in respect of 2008 and a wide number of other cost-saving initiatives. We have reported a break-even performance for 2008, which will be published officially in coming weeks. We also anticipated the further worsening of the commercial climate and secured agreement with unions and staff to postpone the then recently agreed national wage agreement until 2010. I wish to thank our staff for being the first in the public sector to take such a step.

An interim budget for 2009 was approved by the outgoing RTE Authority in November 2008. It was framed as an interim budget precisely because of the rapidly worsening climate and because of the fundamental uncertainty surrounding the reliability of anyone's forecasts in such a turbulent market. At the start of this year we observed a further deterioration in the advertising market and, as a result, in February we indicated that revenues could be off target by an estimated €68 million as against original expectation and due entirely to commercial revenue fall-off. This is an unprecedented decline in commercial revenue but it is no different from that experienced by other media organisations which depend so heavily on commercial funding.

Again this forecasted shortfall was immediately communicated to staff and a number of actions to address it were identified. RTE explained that it wished, as much as possible, to protect the creation of content for our viewers and listeners and that it wished, as much as possible, to protect employment. Some €27 million of savings are being extracted from initiatives which flowed through from actions identified in 2008. The other €41 million was categorised under four broad headings. Approximately €10 million is being sought in additional efficiency and cost-cutting initiatives across the whole organisation in respect of non-staff items. This does mean cutbacks in programming but it is our intention to carry out this painful exercise in a way that least damages the quality, variety and competitive strength of our various programme schedules in the delivery of a range of public services. Another €10 million has been targeted from once-off, non-recurring savings and a further €10 million in commercial initiatives to lessen the decline in advertising sales revenue is planned.

A final €10 million in savings in pay-related operating costs is also being sought. From this last target came our request to staff to accept voluntary pay cuts across the board. This has been the subject of intensive negotiation with the trade union group. The proposed model for pay cuts agreed with the TUG is being voted on at the moment by members of the trade unions in RTE but I will not hazard an opinion as to the outcome. However, we have said to staff at various meetings held in recent weeks that we firmly believe this is the best option for all of us in order to maintain our connection with the audience. It is unquestionably painful for staff who have also had pay packet reductions arising from recent budget decisions, but it is nothing more than what a considerable number of companies in the private sector have already introduced. It is as proportionate and fair as we can make it.

I have gone into this level of detail in order to let the members of the committee know that, far from the picture painted in a number of recent newspaper reports, this very difficult situation is being managed and will be managed. There will more difficult decisions ahead but we will take the appropriate decisions mindful, as much as possible, of the key elements I have already mentioned — output and employment.

Despite all the challenges, our commitment to our public purpose remains undiminished, as I hope members will have noted in recent coverage of the various election campaigns for local government, the European Parliament and the two Dublin by-elections. It was also very evident in the investment in results coverage over the weekend on radio and television and in two languages across four services. Members will have seen reports on the audience figures for the television results programming on RTE 1. It is also important to record that a service which is not, as yet, funded from the licence fee also contributed to instant dissemination of results and analysis and performed an important public service, namely, the RTE website. By way of illustration here are a few figures relating to that service. Over the four days of election coverage there were 12.8 million hits to the RTE website. There was an increase of 20% in traffic on the 2007 general election and in excess of 225,000 unique users per day and 330,000 unique users on Monday. Hits to the RTE news site exceeded 6 million over four days and the dedicated election site generated 5 million page impressions. Visits from outside of Ireland accounted for 30% of the weekend traffic and 823,000 audio and video streams served off the main website, with more than 76% of those streams served live and more than half of the streaming visits coming from overseas users. News Now, RTEs always on, live and looped on-line news service, generated a total of 37,000 streams off the RTE.ie and RTE Player. Some 65% of News Now website visits were from outside Ireland — a clear indication of the Irish diaspora’s recourse to RTE as its information source of preference for news from home.

Overall viewing numbers on RTE Player, RTE's on demand catch-up TV service, also increased dramatically over the weekend as viewers caught up with televised election content with streaming numbers hitting in excess of 25,000 on Saturday. Users of RTE.ie’s other services, including Aertel On-line and Aertel Mobile, as well as RTE.ie’s mobile site increased over the election weekend. Unique visitors to RTE Aertel On-line increased by 42% while page impressions increased by 114%. Traffic to the dedicated Aertel Mobile site and m.rte.ie increased by 32% and 158% respectively.

There is no doubting the turbulent nature of the times we are living in — a watershed of social, political and economic change. Within the short span of last year, three decades of unchallenged confidence in the market have reeled and crumbled. Assumptions about the power of the market for almost limitless good have been tested and exposed. In a world where market thinking has dominated, it is possible to regard only the measurable as valuable and to reject as less tangible, and therefore less important, those other values that are in the aesthetic or the cultural, in the experiences and events that unify and bind communities together or in things that uplift or inspire or inform.

These things in the pure market can be seen as second-rate but to the Irish public they are not. They pose for us more fundamental questions. These are questions about quality, not quantity, and they are more difficult to debate and more challenging to answer. They include such questions as "What broadcasting serves the community best?", "How is broadcasting to survive as a social value, and not simply as a consumer proposition?", "How can we properly value independent news, creative drama and comedy, excellence in classical and traditional music?", "How can we ensure free-to-air coverage of sports, so that the entire community shares the experience?" and "How do we keep a place on the airwaves for the faces and voices of our own children?"

A public service broadcasting organisation like RTE has to heed these questions of quality. We must also be efficient, effective, transparent and accountable. We must not be wasteful or presumptuous in any way about the public funds and commercial revenue that pay for television and radio programmes. Equally, however, we should not regard the market as the be-all and end-all. There are more important tests than those of the market. The test for us in RTE is to be resilient and effective in these troubled times and never to lose sight of our core purpose of serving the Irish people.

Before I invite members to ask questions I wish to inform the committee that we have an apology from Deputy Simon Coveney who, unfortunately, cannot be present.

In correspondence to this committee, dated 9 March 2009, Mr. Goan stated that as at 31 December 2008 he had a staff of 2,351 with an average salary of €62,496. Are presenters included in the figure who are clearly contracted? He mentioned the number of personnel in his organisation who were earning in excess of €100,000 in 2008 as 148. Does that figure include contracted presenters in his organisation? Mr. Goan did not refer to the pension scheme but I understand from press reports that there is a serious problem with it. Perhaps Mr. Goan will answer all those questions later.

I thank the delegation for appearing before the committee. I realise its report has not yet been published but, I understand, that is not a matter for which it is responsible. It appears RTE had a pretty stormy year and has not been helped by the fact that it did not have a board for much of that time. I do not quite understand why we do not have a report and we need to ask the Minister about that. As has been outlined here, many difficulties have been encountered and issues relating to public service broadcasting that are clearly in the public interest.

I will leave the budgeting issue until last. The Broadcasting Bill is going through the House. I have made a very strong case for the establishment of one regulator rather than, what it appears we will have, two regulators. There is a cost involved which will be borne by the broadcasters. I ask Mr. Goan to comment on that issue if he can. It is important that some commonsense would be brought to bear on this at a time when we talk about better government. We talk about parallel regulators dealing with broadcasting at a time when we should get greater efficiency, better value and fewer burdens on the broadcasters who have to fund the regulator.

In regard to DTT, I have a particular concern about the logjam because of the contractors withdrawing without signing the contract. I represent an area on the east coast where many thousands of people face the loss of British television channels because of the switch over. I appreciate that what has happened is not the fault of RTE but it has a direct impact on RTE and on the development of DTT. Perhaps Mr. Goan will tell the committee the costs involved. We have already invested a considerable number of millions of euro. What exactly is happening? It is disturbing that we are falling back down the line even from our relatively modest targets in terms of our commitments in Europe and yet there is no indication that we will catch up. We talk a good deal about digital Ireland but we are certainly not reaching the goals we need to reach if we are to compete internationally.

Another point raised in respect of the other television broadcasters is advertising rates. I probably will not get an answer to that question because Mr. Goan will say it is commercially sensitive. A very strong argument is being put by TV3 in regard to unfair practices. How does one answer that question?

Mr. Goan made a point about growing viewership and the importance of good quality content. I endorse those sentiments. RTE has a very fine record. Obviously when sources of funding are drying up it is difficult to ensure high quality. One of the reasons RTE had good quality programmes and good content was due to being able to avail of independent film making and independent producers. There is concern that content will be affected. I appreciate RTE does not want to see anything in the Broadcasting Bill that would pin it down in terms of the use of independent producers and I understand the reason but what can it do to ensure it has that talent available to it? If nothing is happening on that front there will not be any independent producers before too long.

In regard to the budget, I understood from the presentation that €68 million is the forecast deficit for this year. Is that correct?

Mr. Cathal Goan

No.

What exactly is the forecast deficit because the figure given was for February and presumably there is another figure for the year end? Obviously it would mean further savings if there is a different figure and I take it there is a different figure. There was always the issue of the top earners. I notice in the BBC that the same argument is taking place. It has not been tackled within Government or the Civil Service but it should be and it needs to be tackled in RTE also. It is an affront to have people earning enormous amounts of money at a time when people on relatively moderate levels of salary within RTE deny themselves any increases and take reductions in salary. That is a major issue and needs to be tackled much more rigorously.

There is an embargo in most areas of the Civil Service. If somebody retires in RTE is he or she replaced or is that a way of reducing staff costs?

I welcome the RTE personnel and thank them for the presentation. It is good news to hear from its opening statement that RTE is not broke and is not bankrupt. One would have to be concerned that in September last, Mr. Goan said he was short €26 million and by February the amount had increased to €68 million. Those are staggering figures. When he proceeded to break down those figures, the word "savings" come up. The initial figure provided for savings was €27 million. In respect of the breakdown of the €41 million there were two amounts of €10 million each in savings. Perhaps Mr. Goan could be more specific in regard to those figures and what those savings entail.

Mr. Goan referred to media reports on bankruptcy and concerns. The general public has many concerns about the performance of RTE. When it comes to pay cuts it is fine to speak about the person on the average amount of €62,000. How does RTE propose to deal with those on existing contracts and how does it propose to make savings on payment? The high earners, to whom Deputy McManus referred, in their programmes continuously slate public representatives such as ourselves on the so-called exorbitant salary or expenses we are paid. These people are paid obscene salaries, wages, bonuses and so on. How does RTE propose to deal those people? I understand they are represented through media companies or various personnel. The committee is anxious to hear how RTE proposes to deal with them.

I have concerns regarding independent companies that provide so much employment in producing programmes. What is RTE's budget for those this year? Is there a cutback in that budget because if so it will have an adverse effect on those companies? We seek some assurances that those companies that are suppliers of programmes will not be affected in the savings RTE is trying to achieve.

On DTT and Boxer pulling out, my understanding is that to date RTE has spent in the region of €40 million putting in infrastructure in that regard. RTE may not be able to afford the more than €60 million required to complete that programme. How does it propose to do that? We do not want to end up with the scenario we have had to date where it will be available in some areas of the country but not in others, as happened with reception of other RTE television channels.

The committee would like to send a message to RTE that in its efforts to stay afloat it should not resort to seeking an increase in the fee for a television licence from the ordinary individual. The members would say "hands off that" to RTE because the general public have paid enough. If anything it is a decrease in the licence fee we should recommend, not an increase. If RTE is to solve its difficulties it must go down another road rather than putting the onus on the general public to do that.

Mr. Goan mentioned media reports. There was a strong report recently that RTE was about to enter into the property market in that it was about to sell off some of its lands in Donnybrook. Could Mr. Goan confirm or deny that and, if so, will he accept that RTE missed the boat in getting into the property market because if it had done that some years ago it would now be in a definite surplus position?

Regarding RTE's advertising revenues and so on, most people, and certainly most private businesses and small business, must cut their costs. Does RTE have any proposals to reduce the cost of advertising in RTE, which in turn might increase the amount of its advertising?

My final question to Mr. Goan is whether he misses George Lee. Does RTE intend replacing him? Is he replaceable? How much per annum will RTE save now that George Lee has entered this House and it no longer has to pay him?

I thank Mr. Goan for the cur i láthair a chuir sé os ár gcomhair amach. Tuigim go maith na deacrachtaí ar leith atá ag RTE faoi láthair. Phléamar na deacrachtaí céanna ó thaobh an advertising revenue atá ag Foinse, mar shampla, sa Seanad inné. It is across the board. We met the national newspaper editors recently who raised the same issue.

Nobody can argue against the point Mr. Goan made about the drop in advertising revenue. It is clearly understood. What we are focusing on here are the measures RTE takes to deal with that.

I say to the Chairman that it would be a bad day to discuss the pension fund. This is not the right environment to discuss the level of the pension fund because the position with it is as with every other pension fund. Mr. Goan does not have to tell us the answer. We know the position with it. Pension funds are for a 40 year term. They are down everywhere and it will not be any different in RTE, unless it has been very lucky in some other way.

An issue arises about the question of the top level salaries but it is a problem of RTE's making. I disagree with my two colleagues. I do not have a difficulty with large pay packets for people who are entitled to them if that is commercially sound. What I do not understand is the way they are arrived at. I notice there is a difficulty currently about issues. Mr. Goan mentioned the performance related payments. I have not been briefed on that but I notice the unions have a problem with the same issue. Certain aspects must be addressed in that regard. First, we must understand how salaries are arrived at, not the quantum, which is a different question. Second, we must know how performance related payments are arrived at. Once that is done it becomes a question of the take-home pay and the rate for the job.

I have sat across many tables on many occasions on this issue. RTE's difficulty is that people do not trust what it says on these issues. If people are earning the rate for the job, that is another issue. The other mistake made was to look for voluntary cuts in salaries. It was the same case in here. Some of my colleagues in the Dáil, the Seanad and other places signed off on their hard won salaries.

At that stage RTE should have sat down with the representatives and told them that everybody across the board would have to arrive at a particular figure rather than having newspaper headlines continue for weeks as to whether this or that presenter would buy in to the process. That was unreal. It was a jagged process that did not seem to be managed, and that is a difficulty.

I compliment RTE on the website, which is superb, but I am more interested in cutbacks that will affect the future potential of the station. I did not hear Mr. Goan mention DAB in his contribution and I want certain reassurances on that. I also want to know the reason RTE is not plugging the superb stations it is currently broadcasting on DAB, which nobody knows about, such as the various versions of RTE Radio 1 in particular, which are outstanding and at times match the BBC World Service in many ways. Those are not being put forward and that should be done.

I have a serious question for Mr. Goan. RTE has put €40 million into the masts erected throughout the country. Masts to me are like hard copy. I do not know why anybody would build masts for radio, television, telephones or whatever. How much would RTE save if we changed the legislation tomorrow morning and instead of having digital terrestrial broadcasting we could have satellite broadcasting? If RTE could book a channel tomorrow morning it would not look for the extra €60 million to finish those masts throughout the country. It would also be able to provide a service to the Black Valley in Kerry and other areas it will never reach with its masts. I would like an honest answer to the question. RTE has nothing to hide on this issue. Mr. Goan need not take the Government line on it. We can send the masts off with the voting machines, store them somewhere and deliver digital broadcasting tomorrow morning. It is an issue the committee needs to examine.

On a similar issue, on the previous occasion Mr. Goan came before the committee he told us that the channel for the diaspora was delayed for several months. We understood that, but I would like an update in terms of when it will come through.

Another question to which I can never get an answer is whether RTE has finished its contract with Sky, Astra, Mr. Murdoch and all the rest of them? Can we now have an unencrypted RTE service on satellite throughout Europe for those programmes which are not copyright bound such as RTE news and others? This is a major loss for us at a time when we are trying to sell our message through Europe. We are shooting ourselves in the foot. It also means that there is more revenue to be gained by RTE from doing business with individual suppliers of broadband, satellite, television and telephone services as an all-in package, which is what is happening throughout most of Europe.

If we collected the television licence revenue by way of a tax on every home, allowing people to opt in or out, would that save RTE money? It seems to be a very cumbersome collection method in comparison to what we are doing in other areas where there is an audiovisual tax. It is called a tax as opposed to a licence fee. Could that be done?

I advise the Chairman that I must leave now for a short while but that does not mean I will not listen to the discussion.

I welcome Cathal Goan, Conor Hayes and Kevin Dawson and thank them for attending. How much does the new webcasting of "Morning Ireland" cost? How many people are employed to do that? How can any extra cost be justified at a time when junior staff are expected to take pay cuts and we read in the newspapers, as Mr. Goan mentioned, that RTE might have to shut down due to financial constraints?

On the question of George Lee, why was it that as far back as February it was known to senior people in RTE that George would be a candidate for Fine Gael yet he was allowed to do the "How We Blew the Boom" programme, which was anything but impartial?

I object to that. If that goes on, we will have a row over something that should not be debated here.

Joe Duffy asked on his radio programme on Monday last for people who were former Fianna Fáil or Green Party supporters to phone in and say why they had voted against the Government. It was obvious from the way he treated contributions from a few pro-Fianna Fáil people who phoned in that he was dismissive of them and did not want to give them a hearing. Does that treatment represent balance? The panels on many of the programmes were skewed in favour of anti-Government panellists, including so-called independent commentators who have proved themselves time and again to be anything but independent. Is any check kept on this at senior level in RTE?

Will Mr. Goan put on record what the higher paid stars will earn in 2009? Will they be taking more pay cuts? Does he agree that now that RTE's adverting revenues have declined, these very high salaries are unjustified?

RTE is facing a huge deficit. This is not the time or place to raise the issue of some broadcaster having said something or to be unhappy with the composition of a panel on a programme. That is not what this meeting should be about.

RTE has a staff of more than 2,300. There is an incredible focus on its top 50 to 100 earners, but the focus should be on its other 2,200 staff. Mr. Goan said he would do as much as possible to protect employment. When I was in RTE during the week I saw A4 sheets printed with the words "Vote Yes", "Vote No" and it struck me that morale is low in the organisation. It is obvious that RTE is experiencing difficult financial circumstances, but when I hear comments like, "as much as possible to protect employment", it suggests there will be redundancies.

Mr. Goan projected in February 2009 that there would be a €68 million deficit. According to his projections, has that deficit increased or decreased? I am sure he will be able to advise us on that, given that the period from February to date accounts for almost a third of the year. I hope he will say it is decreasing. I would be disappointed if it is increasing.

Mr. Goan outlined four blocks of €10 million in savings and pay related cuts. In terms of protecting employment as much as possible, €10 million of the €68 million figure is in pay related cuts. I do not know if the be-all and end-all of the savings are €10 million. A vote is taking place on it and I know there is no point in Mr. Goan commenting on it, nor am I asking him to do so. If the numbers are going in the wrong direction, it suggests he would be left with no option but to seek redundancies. Is that an accurate statement? I would like to hear Mr. Goan's opinion on that.

What percentage of the organisation's outgoings comprise wages? Deputy Coonan referred to the licence fee. Is Mr. Goan considering seeking a rise in the licence fee? In a period of serious economic depression, it would not go down well with the public to seek such a rise.

I refer briefly to the people in RTE who earn significant sums. I do not believe that anyone begrudges them that and if the rates involved are the commercial rates, so be it. It seems distasteful to many people that figures of this magnitude are being earned when people in the public sector have been asked to pay a doubling of the health levy and the income levy. I realise that staff in RTE have not being asked to pay a pension levy such as that which applies to the public sector and that the staff do not have the benefit of a defined benefit scheme.

There were not that many radio stations down the country when I was growing up. To what steps was Mr. Goan referring which would address the marketing loss of 2FM?

I read a newspaper report of RTE having a deficit of €100 million. If one adds the 2008 deficit and the projected 2009 deficit, the figures comes close to €100 million. That is not sustainable for the organisation. The 2008 deficit is €26 million.

Mr. Cathal Goan

I said we would break even in 2008. That is what we will report. There was a €26 million shortfall in revenue.

Mr. Conor Hayes

May I clarify this point?

Mr. Conor Hayes

The journalist who reported a €100 million deficit for the organisation in that newspaper article got his numbers wrong. He mixed up the pension fund balance sheet with the P and L deficit. It is as simple as that.

This is a good exercise to clarify those figures. Regarding RTE having 12 million hits in whatever number of days, I was responsible for about 11,900,000 in trying to keep an eye on friends and colleagues who were battling it out in the recent days.

Cuirim fáilte roimh foireann RTE anseo ar maidin. For clarity, will Mr. Goan indicate RTE's projected deficit for 2009? I note that in February he said there was revenue fall-off of €68 million. That does not literally imply a deficit. Mr. Goan identified that savings of the order of €67 million or €68 million were being tabulated. I take it that savings of €27 million are in place and that the other €40 million in savings seems to be in the process of being put in place. That surprises me somewhat.

Two aspects arise in that respect. What proportion of RTE's overall expenditure is its pay element? Last November when Mr. Goan appeared before this committee, he indicated a deficit for 2009 of the order of €50 million plus. I suggested there would be a deficit of €50 million to which Mr. Hayes responded that €50 million in savings was what he identified for 2009, which I took to be about protecting what needed to be done to make ends meet. Given that was eight months ago, I am surprised the representatives are still only starting to get unions to come on board with pay reductions. It seems to have taken an inordinate length of time.

When we raised the issue in January of RTE's contract broadcasters, Mr. Goan indicated he would approach them post haste to secure savings of 10%. Following our raising that issue in this forum and it subsequently becoming an issue in the media, it transpired very little of that 10% in savings had been put in place at that stage. I know a contract situation does not come only within Mr. Goan's remit. I asked a question at that meeting which was not answered and I will ask it again. I do not accept this would involve any breach of confidentiality because it would be a general clause within those agreements. Is there provision within the contracts RTE has with each individual company representing the presenters or directly with the presenters, which I presume are legally drafted, that where RTE's revenue is seriously affected it has the right, because of falling revenue, to invoke a clause in such contracts to renegotiate the contracts in that respect?

On the basis of the average salary in RTE and on it having 2,351 employees, I calculate its payroll costs are in the ballpark of €147 million. Mr. Goan might clarify if that is correct. Savings of €10 million seem a small proportion of that figure; it is only in the order of 7%. I assume RTE's payroll costs are a high proportion of its overall costs. If it wants to address its shortfall of €68 million, it should do so in the way it would be done in the public sector by protecting the pay, conditions and benefits and dealing with the coalface services that are cut, namely, the quality of programmes in this instance.

That is not acceptable from a national broadcaster. It should operate like a business. I would have expected it to examine payroll reductions very significantly. If it followed the TV3 course, which reduced staff by 18%, RTE would have an immediate €26 million reduction in payroll costs. A further average 10% cut in pay would yield €12 million, which gives a total of €38 million. I accept these actions are not easy but every other industry is doing it. I agree with some of my colleagues on the committee. Unless RTE is seen to be commercial in the manner it approaches its current financial difficulties, there is little point asking the committee to address the issue through an increased licence fee.

With regard to staff, there is a newspaper report that the number of staff increased by 44 in 2008, which is extraordinary in the current climate, particularly when the station's only competitor——

Mr. Cathal Goan

Is that 2009 or 2008?

The report refers to 2008. It states that the staff increased by 44, from 2,307 to 2,351. I do not know if that is accurate but that is what the newspaper reported. That report also stated that TV3 had reduced its staff by 18%. This raises questions about management.

The pension issue has also been raised. I do not agree with Senator O'Toole that it is not an issue we should discuss. Of course it is. Everybody realises that all pension funds have taken a major hit. Can the witness clarify that the defined benefits scheme is a fund RTE has to which people contribute and that it is not just like the public service, where the pension is paid from current revenue? I presume it is a fund. Can the witness outline the size of its deficit? The station also has a defined contribution scheme, which is for employees employed since 1999. What is the position with that? In all the debate on pensions, everybody focuses on the defined scheme, but there are people in defined contribution schemes who are suffering the same. They should be treated the same as people in defined benefit schemes. We must be fair in the manner in which we deal with that.

With regard to staff and the issue of contract broadcasters, it is popular to focus on the top earners. However, according to the information for 2006, some at the lower end of the scale appear to be on extraordinarily high contract payments for the job they do and for their prominence in radio in particular. I agree with Deputy McManus——

What have I done wrong?

——that we do not have the 2007 accounts.

Mr. Cathal Goan

The committee does.

We have the annual report but we do not have the detail we sought.

Mr. Cathal Goan

It is the 2008 accounts.

Okay, I am sorry. That will be available when it is cleared from the Department.

When did it go to the Department?

Mr. Cathal Goan

The accounts were approved by the authority on 30 April and went to the Department two or three days afterwards.

We are meeting to discuss the financial situation but there is another issue, the area of public service broadcasting. Perhaps today is not the time to discuss it but we should have a debate with the witnesses about it. I have concerns. The quality of some of the programmes by the station in some areas is excellent. The website is very good, particularly in following the election results last weekend. I accessed it for them.

However, despite the downturn in the station's position, I have great difficulty with the way the recession and global downturn has been covered. I compare it with some excellent quality programmes on BBC 2. I acknowledge that station has a higher budget and Mr. Goan might say the comparison is unfair but I have watched programmes on banking and on the property situation in other countries which did not appear to be particularly expensive to make. They came across as fair and impartial, which gave one an understanding of the position. That is very important. Many people are worried and concerned, and they depend on the news media which are far from impartial, including RTE, in their manner of reporting. It is almost as if the station is pursuing the most dramatic headline or trying to construe the news in a language that is excessive and frightens people. That is not to say it should not be covered in a fair way or that politicians should not be challenged. I agree they should be.

My next point relates to impartiality. I have no difficulty with anybody in RTE, and particularly people of calibre, going into politics. Politics needs that. However, there are issues surrounding the impartiality of presenters on many programmes. I do not wish to make this a catch-all matter as there are some notable exceptions. The station is starting a political programme in the latter part of the year. A number of the station's presenters have political leanings. I accept there would be Fianna Fáil people as well as Fine Gael people and those from the Socialist Workers Party. These people have prominent positions in the organisation. That comes across in many of the programmes. How does one monitor or measure that? What controls are in place to ensure the station fulfils its function as the national broadcaster and to ensure that the public is getting reasonable and balanced reporting? I have previously been publicly critical of two organisations, RTE and the Irish Independent, for a lack of impartiality. Others tend to be more impartial in their reporting. There is a need for constant monitoring in that regard. I accept it is difficult and that when there are live broadcasts one cannot control people. I have seen this happen with local radio as well. One can identify the people; they are known to the people who listen to these programmes.

I welcome Mr. Goan, Mr. Hayes and Mr. Dawson. I note the absence of Brid Rosney and some others. Is that a sign of the things taking place at RTE that we are here to discuss this morning?

I believe she has retired.

I am sorry. I wish her well in her retirement. I will be interested to find out who is her replacement and from what political establishment they come. They have to be from outside the Houses anyway.

That is a very serious charge. I ask Deputy McGrath to withdraw it.

I say it in jest.

It is important to withdraw it on the record.

It is said in jest. It can be looked at both ways.

It is a serious matter.

I know it is a serious matter. I just said it in jest. We will not get too excited about such things.

There is a bit of the "Podge and Rodge" from that end of the House.

We all know about this from watching RTE over the years. Other speakers have referred to it but I will not get into it. Several good questions have been asked. I will not repeat them but I await the answers.

How did it get to the current situation, especially with the top earners and the rates of pay? It took this committee a long time to find out the rates of pay of the serious earners. When we were given them I was astounded to find out that it took 5,300 licence holders to pay the wages of the top presenter. We then found out that this was after VAT and PRSI. There were some issues about what VAT one can and cannot claim back.

All is not well with the station. There are 2,200 other staff working there, who are ordinary, decent people. I respect that and I accept there are many good presenters and much good programming. We had RTE when there were no other stations available and we must respect that as well. However, there is now a projected deficit of €68 million. One of the arguments the witnesses put forward on the last occasion as to why the wages were so high was the ability of these people to attract huge advertising revenue. That is what they told us. That situation has changed dramatically, so if they are on contracts can they be renegotiated? I understand how contracts have to be renegotiated as well. There are two sides to every contract. I cannot see any situation where licensees could even be asked for a licence fee increase. Government is about driving down the cost of living across a wide range of areas now and the public broadcasting sector must also reflect that position. We cannot possibly go back to seeking a licence fee increase from ordinary licence holders. While I will not go into the system of collecting the licence fee, it has to be re-examined.

Four independent reviews in the past six years have given licence fee increases. I know jobs have to be protected but many of my concerns are laid at Mr. Goan's table. He is the man in charge. How could wages go to that level and why do we only have 2006 figures? We did not get any more recent figures. When we got the figures the last time, they were two or three years out of date. We must cut our cloth according to our measure. I do not believe any man or woman is worth that kind of money. That responsibly lies with Mr. Goan. They obviously negotiated it but we got carried away and we must go back to basics.

A bit like Fianna Fáil.

I ask Mr. Goan to respond.

Mr. Cathal Goan

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, a Theachtaí agus a Sheanadoirí. There are a number of questions that require a level of detail that I am happy to go into. Briefly, however, the figure of €68 million that was mentioned is a projected revenue shortfall. At no stage did we say that it was a projected deficit. That is an important point to make. Similarly, last year, when we said there was a projected shortfall of €26 million in advertising revenue, our performance at the end of the year will be reported as break even. There is no question of compounding one against the other. RTE has taken, and continues to take, the appropriate measures in all circumstances. That is by way of an introductory remark.

I am also conscious of the heat and light generated around the levels of fees awarded to top presenters. In 2001, RTE undertook at this committee to publish retrospectively the top ten fees for two years in arrears. That continues to be the policy. The top ten for 2007 will be published as soon as the annual report is published. While it will afford an amount of hysteria at the time, it will be about 2007, not 2009. I am not going to say any more about the salaries or fees of top talent because they are confidential. I will report to the authority on the measures we have already taken and continue to take to have reductions across the board in staff on contract. I will say no more on that.

Is it included in the €62,000 figure?

Mr. Cathal Goan

No, it is not.

So, if one was to take the top ten earners and include them in the average fee, the average salary would be increased substantially on that.

Mr. Cathal Goan

But they are not salaried people, it is a fee.

No, but they are contracted people.

Mr. Cathal Goan

Yes.

So if they were included in the salaries of RTE, it would substantially increase the average earnings in RTE.

Mr. Conor Hayes

May I put the figure in context? We have total costs of approximately €440 million. We pay €12 million in contract fees to 249 people, which includes the top earners. A lot of people focus on a very small number and then incorrectly deduce that there is a large number of salaries.

But the average "salary" would be substantially greater than €62,000.

Mr. Conor Hayes

It would not because our total personnel-related costs are of the order of €200 million. Therefore, if one adds another €12 million, it does not affect the averages in that sense.

How does Mr. Hayes make it €200 million, if 2,351 multiplied by 62.5 comes to €147 million? There is a huge gap of €50 million there.

Mr. Conor Hayes

It depends what the multiplier is and what the divider is, obviously.

It is 2,351. I am going on the information Mr. Hayes gave us.

Mr. Conor Hayes

Yes, the number of——

Can I just explain? Mr. Hayes told us there were 2,351 people working in RTE and he told us the average salary was €62,500.

Mr. Conor Hayes

On top of average salaries, different people would have allowances. We have employer's PRSI and pension contracts.

Okay, that is fine.

Mr. Conor Hayes

One has the add-on costs that any business sector would normally have. The figure is 2,351 but in the case of the €12 million, those are contractors who invoice us. There are 249 of them. While the top figures are very high——

How does RTE, as a public service broadcaster, justify——

I just want to clarify this. In those contractors, RTE has the top earners, the presenters. How many of them are there?

Mr. Conor Hayes

There are 249 presenters in total.

No, how many high profile presenters are there?

Mr. Cathal Goan

We publish, two years in arrears, the top ten earners who are presenters.

Mr. Cathal Goan

We publish that every year, two years in arrears.

How many contract people does RTE have?

Mr. Conor Hayes

Two hundred and forty nine.

How many of those are presenters?

Mr. Cathal Goan

In that top ten?

No, of the 249 contractors that Mr. Goan is talking about.

Mr. Cathal Goan

They are in that group.

Are they all presenters?

Mr. Cathal Goan

They are people who come in and do programmes as run-of-series presenters on radio and television. There are contributors across——

Do they trade as separate entities?

Mr. Cathal Goan

Yes, they trade as separate entities.

Then they bill RTE for the fees?

But they are all presenters?

Mr. Cathal Goan

No.

I am trying to pin Mr. Goan down as to the top earners.

Mr. Cathal Goan

There is no question of pinning me down. If I understood the Chairman's question correctly, I would answer it as best I can. By the way, I want to make it absolutely clear that we are not here to try to evade anything. I will tell the committee what I can, but if it concerns personal information, I will not.

As Members of the Oireachtas we have been criticised that our Taoiseach is earning more than the President of the United States. On the basis of the information I am trying to get from Mr. Goan, clearly there are a substantial number of people in RTE who are earning far in excess of what Barack Obama is earning.

Mr. Cathal Goan

There are not substantial numbers of people who are earning more.

How many people earn more than €300,000 a year?

Mr. Cathal Goan

No members of staff earn more than €300,000 a year.

What about Mr. Goan's salary?

Mr. Cathal Goan

My salary is €294,000.

So Mr. Goan is €6,000 short.

Mr. Cathal Goan

Yes, before the cuts.

So no members of Mr. Goan's organisation earn more than €300,000?

Mr. Cathal Goan

No employees of RTE.

What about contractors?

Mr. Cathal Goan

The top contractors are published, as I have already said, every year two years in arrears. One can deduce that there are about six or seven people who earn over €300,000 a year.

Mr. Conor Hayes

It is not even that. I cannot remember the exact figure. I would actually say it is three or four people.

So there are six more than €300,000.

Mr. Cathal Goan

This is all published.

The only figures we have are for 2006.

Why are the figures two years in arrears? I think it adds to the controversy, to be honest.

Mr. Cathal Goan

Very simply, while this is a case of agitation here, the fact is that many of those people have in the past been offered employment or engagement with other services. We have kept this two years in arrears for competitive purposes. That is the only reason and it will continue to be the reason.

In the current climate, I doubt if there are too many organisations in the broadcasting area that will offer salaries of that level.

Mr. Cathal Goan

There are new media organisations being founded. There are new radio services. People are being attracted to work for them and they are offered contracts of payment, so this is still a market.

Can we continue then?

Mr. Cathal Goan

There are other issues which people have brought up. Deputy McManus mentioned the structure of regulation. A unified regulatory structure is proposed in the Bill. If she is referring to the structure of the RTE board, the fact is that——

No, I am arguing——

Mr. Cathal Goan

Does the Deputy mean ComReg?

Mr. Cathal Goan

I see, excuse me. I think the Deputy knows my view and RTE's view on that, which is that we would have preferred if there was a unified regulatory structure, but that has passed us by.

A number of Deputies asked about advertising and advertising rates. There are some significant misconceptions about RTE's television advertising rates. One of the things that has compounded the challenges for us is that we sold television advertising in quite a sophisticated way, which was based around a share of the total revenue available from an advertiser and our promise to deliver certain ratings. In the period to which I referred, which was the most successful in our history in terms of commercial revenue, we saw double digit growth in advertising revenue driven by the twin factors of demand and delivery of audience. While our audiences continued to grow, the demand lessened and, therefore, the price we could seek lessened. Deflation has become the order of the day in the past year. Far from RTE seeking to lower its price, the price in the market was deflating significantly, was beyond RTE's control and to its detriment. We have taken steps to arrest that decline and to put a bottom on the decline in deflation in our advertising for television.

We compete with all the other services, including radio. We sell radio advertising in a different way. We sell there as competitively as anyone. We review these matters on a weekly and sometimes daily basis. There is no complacency around the commercial revenue we receive.

To go back to what Mr. Hayes mentioned, around €200 million of what we generated last year was licence fee revenue and the rest was from commercial activity, the vast majority of which was from television and radio advertising sales. It is in this area that we have seen the shortfall about which we have been talking to the committee. It is in this area that we need to make significant improvements.

On the question of a licence fee increase, I wish to make it clear to all the people present that we entered into a series of arrangements with the Department where, after regular review, RTE would be assessed for an increase. That review has happened for 2007 and 2008. It is entirely beyond RTE's compass to decide whether there should be a licence fee increase. We simply made a case. We are saying no more than that in this current climate. As we all know, this is a very difficult climate and there is no question of us doing anything other than continuing with a process which was agreed with Government about review and, following from review, assessment of worthiness for a licence fee increase. It is entirely beyond our remit to decide how that should happen. I take on board what all the Deputies and Senators said about the current climate and the need for people to get more for less. It is in that context that we are asking our staff to take a pay reduction.

What was the outcome of the review of the television licence?

Mr. Cathal Goan

There has not been an outcome for either 2007 or 2008.

To go back to the estimated shortfall, last year RTE broke even because it took measures to deal with what was an apparent shortfall.

Mr. Cathal Goan

I will come to that. Mr. Hayes and I will attempt to address the questions asked.

I refer to the independent sector. As much as internally, there are effects on the independent production sector. Our aim in all of this is to protect content. While there will be effects, there is no question we can continue at the level we have. For instance, we have exceeded the statutory requirement for independent production for five years in a row and by the order of, I believe, 40% or 50% in the past year. We have always signalled that was a function of our improved financial position. Necessarily when things get tightened, there is a fall off. There will be a fall off this year. It is not our practice to say mid-year what that will be. We publish at the end of the year exactly what was spent on the independent sector. It will be well in excess of the current statutory amount and of the proposed statutory amount. Our commitment to the independent sector remains.

However, like RTE, the independent sector will experience difficulties. Programmes have already been cancelled. Internally and externally, more programmes will be cancelled. As I said, our main challenge is to try to make those cuts as effectively and as proportionately as possible and to do least damage to the quality of the schedules we offer the public.

Invariably, there will be people who will feel they have got the rawest deal. That is part of our daily business. We make decisions, commission one programme and not another and we decide on one presenter and not on another. Those decisions are grist to our mill on a daily basis. The key proposition for us in all of this is to manage a difficult situation in such a way that when the upturn happens, we will still have the right talent, the right blend of people and the right blend of schedules to enjoy the uptake in commercial revenue. That is the big challenge for us. DTT was mentioned and I will ask Mr. Hayes to talk about that.

Senator O'Toole asked about the structure of salaries, bonuses and so forth. In 2003, we brought in a performance development system for the assessment of managers. Anyone who, in his or her grade, could be considered for a bonus had to agree to a number of targets at the beginning of the year. Each one of those people was assessed on those targets and at the end of the year we decided — it was signed off by me — what each person got based on the achievement of the targets. It was a unified system. We have records from the period since then and the average managers were paid the last time when bonuses were paid, which was in 2007, was 9.5%.

Will Mr. Goan give us an idea of those KPIs?

Mr. Cathal Goan

They are variable.

Is Mr. Goan talking about audience numbers, savings or——

Mr. Cathal Goan

Audience share would be part of it for a person in a creative role. In other parts of the organisation, it would be about projects which had been completed on time, under budget and so forth. They varied in different parts of the organisation.

Senator O'Toole asked about DAB and why there is not more publicity. I thank him for the compliments about the services we currently provide. They cost of the order of €300,000 per year to keep on air. The reason we do not publicise them more is that they are not available across the country. If we advertise a lot more what we cannot give to everyone, all we do is guarantee that more people will complain, and I am not being smug in saying that to the Senator.

Private radio stations have said on air that DAB will die and that is preventing the spread. I heard one of RTE's competitors say that last week.

Mr. Cathal Goan

This is a key time about which there is no question. There are many things which, in the next while, depending on the investment and uptake among the public, could go one way or the other. We made a deliberate decision that we would not expand beyond Dublin. We are in Three Rock, Claremont Cairn in County Louth, Limerick and Cork, so we are hitting approximately 60% of the population from those main transmitter areas. However, we are not hitting the whole country. We have said to the Department that we do not propose to go any further until there is an indication that the commercial broadcasters will join with us and there is a significant market for it. I signal clearly here that if we have to tighten the belt further, it may well be that will be one of the things we will have to consider.

The Senator also asked about RTE International, the name of the intended service. That is still on ice. Our proposal is that the RTE player, to which I referred, will have a version of that which will be available on-line internationally and which will have all rights cleared in order that people will be able to receive programmes not only to play them as they go out live, but to have a library of material for three weeks. That will be available internationally.

There is a very simply answer to the question about RTE going unencrypted across Europe. There is a cost to us in doing that. Notwithstanding the Senator's conviction, we do not believe we can meet the cost of that out of our current budgets with the levels of programmes we have and attract sufficient additional revenue.

I accept that. The point I was making was that from a national point of view and in terms of national strategy and marketing this country, this is something that should be dealt with with Government. I accept the point Mr. Goan made but the value to us of a broader spread should be raised with Government.

What is the cost?

Mr. Cathal Goan

One must hire spectrum space on a satellite for that. One also incurs up-link costs for it.

Does RTE not do it at present?

Mr. Cathal Goan

One must do it separately for a new service. The only spectrum space on satellite we enjoy at present is with the Senator's friend, Mr. Rupert Murdoch.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Cathal Goan

Apart from that, our up-link facilities we have are dedicated to specific tasks. One is talking about a new arrangement.

I was asked if we would not have been better to stop DTT and go with satellite. In national strategic terms that may well have been an option several years ago, had Ireland Inc. decided that it would take a portion of satellite space. It is no longer a viable option. RTE will continue to roll out DTT, and Mr. Conor Hayes will fill the committee in on the details of where we are.

Deputy Kelly asked how much a "Morning Ireland" webcast costs? This is an absorbed cost. It is not an additional cost to RTE. Given the way we constructed our on-line operation, there is no net additional cost to us for that.

I will not answer any questions about Deputy Lee. On the question of Joe Duffy and anti-Government agendas in RTE, there are as many opinions as to the political stance of RTE's presenters as there are people in this country. All I will say is that there are channels open to anyone who believes that RTE is unbalanced or biased in its coverage to go through and if we are found wanting, then we will face the penalty of that rather than being subjected to an occasional assessment of a programme which, in the view of some, went badly for a given individual from a given party.

I do not mean to be dismissive. We are in a business where, generally, presenters must be adversarial. Some can construe that as antagonism and others see it as constructive probing. I am not saying that the probing is not excessive at times but in general I stand by the impartiality.

It is not the probing about which I am concerned. We live in a country where everybody has political views. That is healthy in a democracy. It would be churlish to think that presenters would not have political convictions. They are entitled to them. What has RTE in place to monitor and measure? That is really the issue, rather than just saying that one may make a complaint.

Mr. Cathal Goan

I accept that. There is, daily in the news division, twice daily in a corporate level across divisions and then with me every Friday, an editorial meeting where we assess the content of all our programmes, the views of people who have spoken to us about whether we have done it correctly, and what we need to do or not do to address certain perceptions. We are zealous about protecting a key part of the legal proposition of RTE, which is that we are fair and impartial in what we do.

Would Mr. Goan be aware of bias influenced by groups such as Opus Dei and the Knights of Columbanus?

Mr. Cathal Goan

Could I suggest that Senator O'Toole might be baiting me?

It is an issue for many people.

Mr. Cathal Goan

Deputy D'Arcy asked about 2FM. We are in the middle of finalising proposals about that. We have looked at it across the board. I will not say anything to the committee that I have not stated to people in RTE or to the RTE Authority, but it is actively being considered.

What about redundancies and potential lay-offs?

Mr. Cathal Goan

Part and parcel of what we have said to staff in recent weeks is that there will be an early retirement scheme. There will also be other options available. Because we are in the middle of a difficult situation and each member of staff is legally entitled to decide whether to take a pay cut, as I am sure the Deputy will be aware, when the person has made that decision we will deal with the consequences. Before that, it is invidious to say more other than that we will put an early retirement package together.

I wish to explore the case for pay cuts further. Each member of staff may say "Yes" or "No". Am I correct in saying that it is not a question of voting where if there is a majority of 51% in favour or against, it goes ahead or does not?

Mr. Cathal Goan

That is the ultimate step, but RTE has been in the social partnership process from the start and we have a recognised industrial relations mechanism. That is where we chose to go first and that is how we will choose to continue to manage relationships with staff. Even though a considerable number of staff are no longer members of trade unions, that is the way we deal with these matters.

In a nutshell, if the €10 million pay-related cuts for which Mr. Goan has budgeted do not come to pass, he would have to consider other options.

Mr. Cathal Goan

We will achieve the savings we have identified.

What if RTE does not?

Mr. Cathal Goan

We will achieve the savings we have identified.

Does RTE plan to break even again by the end of the year? Is that the aim?

Mr. Cathal Goan

Our intention in all of this is to break even because there is a statutory obligation to do so.

Mr. Goan has not answered the question on the disposal of assets.

Mr. Cathal Goan

I am glad the Deputy raised it. Once again, I take the opportunity to urge the members to believe nothing they read in the newspapers about RTE. They can at least have the comfort that when they listen to RTE, they are hearing their own voices.

In the case of RTE and property, there is not, now or in the immediate future, nor has there been in the recent past, any intention to dispose of property assets.

In the immediate future.

Mr. Cathal Goan

I will not say any more than that.

Will Mr. Goan address the question of the pension fund?

Mr. Cathal Goan

I will hand over to my colleague who has detailed information for the committee on pensions and on where we are on DTT.

Would he give an indication of the deficit?

Mr. Conor Hayes

I can deal with that. The question of last year arose as well. Last year we were ahead of budget by the middle of the year. At that stage our estimation was that we would fall off towards the end of the year, which was why we started to take action. On the point made about the €50 million, when preparing the budgets at that stage for 2009 we reduced them by €50 million. We also took other actions to ensure that we would deliver a break-even result and that is what happened at the end of the year. It is important to say that the €26 million reduction in revenue all happened in the last four months of the year. That then framed what happened for this year.

When preparing the budget for 2009 — Mr. Goan referred to the fact that there is a fundamental uncertainty which everybody has been facing — in October and November last when the banking crisis and the world crisis was becoming extremely fluid, the decision we made was to recommend to the authority, rather than try to adopt a fixed budget for 2009, that because there were such a wide range of economic possibilities we still needed the discipline of a budget but we would have to make certain assessments about it. We took a middle of the road assessment. We did not assume Armageddon or anything of that kind. We put forward the budget and then stated we would see how matters would develop.

From early this year it became clear that we were facing a much more difficult situation. Mr. Goan referred to pricing. We are takers, not setters. There is a large number of international players who decide how much money they will spend on advertising and our job is to get as much of that as we can. However, everybody is affected. We all are fighting for a smaller pot. That is the circumstance of it.

By the end of February it became clear that we were facing a dramatic situation. We worked out a range of parameters. We then did a detailed forecast. The detailed forecast identified that we would have a revenue shortfall of approximately €68 million for the year. Because we are obliged to seek to break even, we then had to see what actions we could take to ensure we would deliver that.

We had already been working on other items and we had identified approximately €27 million of cuts, which are being implemented. Some €22 million of those are in third-party supplier or non-personnel areas and €5 million of those were in personnel-type areas. That left us, based on our projections, with a deficit of €41 million to bridge. We divided €41 million by four and the result was four tranches of €10 million. What we were doing was taking a large problem and creating four smaller ones. We identified four specific pots and we have a series of initiatives under way to try to achieve the necessary reductions in those areas in as fair and as effective a way as possible.

I was asked whether this would be the end of it. We do not possess a crystal ball but it appears from what is happening that the projection of €68 million no longer seems conservative. There is uncertainty for everyone but that is the context within which we are trying to work. On the other hand, if one is 160 ft. under water and one decides to dive to 170 ft., it will not make much difference. It is a relative problem. The key issue for us is to try to address our core difficulty and ensure that we deliver in respect of it.

When we began discussing matters, I formed the impression that members did not understand the nature of the deficit. We are aiming not to have a deficit and we are taking every action——

So there is no deficit.

Mr. Conor Hayes

There is no deficit. There is a revenue shortfall and we are taking action to deal with it. We cannot guarantee that all of the actions we take will be successful or that there will not be further shortfalls in commercial revenue. We are all operating in an incredibly difficult climate. We do not have a deficit but we could have one.

Will the actions to which Mr. Hayes refers affect the budget for independent producers?

Mr. Conor Hayes

Yes.

Mr. Cathal Goan

I have already stated that they will. Those actions will affect everything.

Mr. Cathal Goan

As already stated, RTE's spend in the independent sector will be significantly greater not only than the current statutory requirement, but also than the revised statutory requirement. These producers are valued contributors to our schedules and it is not in our long-term interests to damage them. We need to work this through together.

Trends develop at the beginning of a year and rarely are they bucked. What trend has developed in the period between the February forecast and the current date?

Mr. Conor Hayes

We are focused on dealing with the serious problem that exists rather than trying to establish whether we can make that problem larger or smaller.

Yes, but what is the position with regard to cash flow?

Mr. Conor Hayes

If we were to take the actual estimate, at the time my view was that the figure was probably conservative. However, I no longer believe it to be conservative. That is as much as I can say. I do not possess a crystal ball and I cannot provide guarantees in this regard.

Is Mr. Hayes of the view that the figure is optimistic?

Mr. Conor Hayes

I find it extremely difficult to call at present. I do not want to mislead anyone by providing a plus or minus figure.

What is the position with regard to DTT?

Mr. Conor Hayes

We originally estimated that to build an infrastructure for six multiplexes would cost €120 million. After the receipt of tenders, etc., we reduced the projected cost to €111 million and we now believe it can be done for somewhat less than that. In the interim, the Government has awarded the contracts for the commercial multiplexes. Last September, we entered negotiations with the Boxer consortium with a view to providing it with the infrastructure services it required. In order to ensure that the timetable was put in place, we commenced our rolling out DTT. Out of a total capital budget of €52 million for 2008, we spent €20 million on DTT. We have spent a further €5 million on it in the first quarter of this year.

As a result of the withdrawal of the Boxer consortium, we have been left with the public service MUX and three other commercial multiplexes. RTE does not have a customer for the latter multiplexes. This places us in a difficult position in the context of the amount of money we have been obliged to commit. Our original intention was that between the commencement of the project and June 2010, we would have spent a total of €70 million. Up to the first quarter of this year we have already spent €25 million of this. Due to the fact that it is not possible to just go out and purchase transmitters, antennas and similar equipment because much of it is of bespoke design, we renegotiated with our suppliers in respect of the long-term contracts into which we are tied and we have elongated the project. We sought to create as much space as possible without damaging the project. We will keep the project going and will spend €15 million between now and June 2010. This will be enough to ensure that we meet our obligations.

If a commercial customer does not emerge in respect of the commercial MUXs, a decision will have to be made with regard to how the financing of the public service MUX would proceed. We have commenced discussions with the second bidder — the One Vision consortium which comprises Arqiva, Eircom, TV3 and Setanta — and it is hoped that these will come to fruition.

I inquired about the pension deficit.

Mr. Conor Hayes

I will come to that.

To conclude our deliberations in respect of DTT, the Minister indicated that he wants the process to be speedy and he appears to be quite upbeat in respect of it. I do not know why the latter is the case. Mr. Hayes stated that negotiations with the second bidder have only just commenced. I do not want to pin him down but——

Mr. Conor Hayes

I understand the consortium, if it is going to sign a contract, would like the negotiations to be concluded by the end of the summer. Similarly, its representatives anticipate that its discussions with the BCI in respect of a licence will also be concluded by the end of the summer.

Is it Setanta Ireland that is involved with the consortium?

Mr. Conor Hayes

The company itself has not actually been formed. However, I understand that the potential shareholder in the consortium would be Setanta Ireland.

Did Mr. Hayes state that the service will be available nationwide by next summer?

Mr. Conor Hayes

Our obligation is to launch the service on 31 December 2012. Obviously, one must work back from that date.

Will it be for the entire country or only a part of it?

Mr. Conor Hayes

If a successful commercial contract was negotiated, we believe we would be able to provide a service to 85% of the country from the summer of next year.

So Mr. Hayes is only in a position to provide a tentative indication that 85% of the country will have the service by the summer of next year.

Mr. Conor Hayes

It would quickly move above 90% in the following year.

What would be the position with regard to the remainder of the country?

Mr. Conor Hayes

The other services would not be switched off until the full DTT service was in place. The analogue service will be in place right through until the end of 2012.

Some parts of the country do not even have access to that service at present.

Mr. Conor Hayes

RTE 1 and RTE 2 are broadcast to 99% of homes throughout the country, TG4 is broadcast to 95% and TV3 to 84.8%.

However, we need a 100% service.

Mr. Conor Hayes

That is the best we can do.

Senator Walsh inquired with regard to the pension deficit.

Mr. Conor Hayes

We have a defined benefit scheme. It is a separate scheme with separate trustees. As a matter of record, I am chairman of the trustees. The scheme is sponsored by RTE but it is entirely separate.

Is it a separate fund?

Mr. Conor Hayes

It is totally separate.

What are the contribution levels?

Mr. Conor Hayes

The contribution levels are of the order of 6% and 7%, depending on the company and the individual. They are approximately 13% in total.

Is that the level?

Mr. Conor Hayes

Yes, for members and the company.

That level seems low in light of the fact that people are being paid high salaries.

Mr. Conor Hayes

The contribution rates were set by the actuaries. The scheme has been extremely successful. We were obviously badly affected by what has happened. The value of the assets on 31 December 2008 was approximately €730 million. To put this in context, the average rate of return generated by the scheme in the past five years was 2.28%. During the same period, the National Pensions Reserve Fund generated an average annual return of1.1%. In general, all Irish funds lost 1.17%.

That is very well done. It is a superb performance.

Mr. Conor Hayes

The asset classes are mixed. We have approximately 43% in equities, 41% in bonds and 16% in alternatives.

What is the position with the defined contribution scheme?

Mr. Conor Hayes

Approximately 25% of our employees are in the defined benefit, DB, scheme. No new members have been added to that scheme since July 1989. The defined contribution, DC, scheme came into place at that time. However, the position relating to it is not as simple because there are approximately 20 different investment products which members can select. Therefore, one cannot apply a composite rate. Some would have done very well out of the Oppenheim fund, which is one of the best-performing Irish-managed funds. Others would have chosen products which performed less well. Somebody made the point that its being a DC scheme affects people much more directly.

What is the figure for the deficit?

Mr. Conor Hayes

There is no deficit for the DC scheme because our obligation is to pay the contributions.

With regard to the defined benefit scheme, the deficit is €100 million. Under the minimum funding standard, the deficit is defined as €84.8 million. The obligation of the company and the trustees is to go back to the Pensions Board by the end of next year with a proposal on how we might deal with the matter and over what period of time.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Goan and his colleagues for their attendance. Clearly, they have a challenging time ahead of them and I wish them well. I heard a promotion on RTE Radio earlier which is still ringing in my ears. It featured Micheál Ó Muircheartaigh saying, "RTE, Fuelling Your Imagination." Mr. Goan will have to use his imagination to address upcoming challenges.

Mr. Cathal Goan

I thank the Chairman and members for their questions and continued interest and support.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.35 a.m. until 9.45 a.m. on Wednesday, 17 June 2009.
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