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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004

Sustainable Energy Ireland: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. David Taylor, chief executive of Sustainable Energy Ireland along with Ms Majella Kelleher and Mr. Morgan Bazilian. I understand the presentation will last for five to ten minutes, after which members will ask questions. Transcripts of the meeting will be provided at a later date.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. It is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. David Taylor

We appreciate the opportunity to present Sustainable Energy Ireland to the joint committee. I will be brief to maximise discussion of the matters members wish to raise. While I am pleased to address members' questions as fully as possible, I may have recourse to my colleagues, Majella Kelleher and Morgan Bazilian, on matters of detail.

Members should have in their documentation a six page note which I prepared specifically for the meeting, appended to which is a list of 14 references. I will speak to six of these references, which we included in the information pack because members may not have had access to them previously.

As the joint committee is aware, Sustainable Energy Ireland was established by Act of the Oireachtas and 1 May 2002 was nominated establishment day. The chair and I, in our first five year strategy statement, undertook to strive to keep energy sustainability at the heart of public policy, business behaviour and private action. Our presence at the proceedings today facilitates that objective.

Our remit and responsibilities are broadly threefold, namely, to implement programmes agreed by the Government, provide advice to the Government on policies and measures with regard to sustainable energy, and stimulate sustainability policies and actions by public bodies, the business sector, local communities and individual consumers.

It may helpful to give an example of an issue on which SEI has delivered across the three areas of advice, programme implementation and market stimulation. I have chosen the example of the public sector programme, a €12.7 million initiative proposed by SEI to improve energy efficiency in public sector buildings. The programme had three elements, namely, design studies, model solutions and an energy management bureau, in which the private sector provides monitoring services remotely to groups of public buildings with a view to improving their energy management capability and performance. Through this programme we have funded 89 design studies, 76 model solutions and up to three of the bureaux I described. The five case histories in the information pack illustrate the range of public buildings and facilities covered.

Members will be aware that sustainable energy is a subset of sustainable development. In that sense, three critical public policy objectives are usually observed, namely, economic aspirations, social aspirations and environmental objectives. Achieving a balance between these objectives constitutes good policy.

I turn now to energy efficiency and competitiveness and for that purpose I will refer to one piece of work in which SEI undertook to inform Government policy and industry's perspective with regard to energy savings. This was a negotiated agreement's pilot, whereby 26 companies volunteered to engage in a process that would simulate what we termed a negotiated agreement's process, by which, in exchange for waiving a recycling or putative tax, industry would undertake a set of energy saving actions. The results of the pilot were most encouraging and have informed both actors in the way we have suggested.

It would not have been possible to have 26 industrial volunteers without a track record of engagement with industry. This was achieved through the large industry energy network established by SEI, the annual report of which is included in the information pack. Eighty of our largest energy users are included in the network, which facilitates the communication of Government policy objectives and the action requirements of industry in responding to them.

Equally important for policy making is a firm statistical base. SEI has established an energy policy statistical support unit in Cork, proximate to the Central Statistics Office. The unit's first report, Energy in Ireland 2002, gives a background account in statistical form of a range of indicators with which it is possible to see how we have performed in regard to energy efficiency in industry and households. It is useful to record that energy efficiency improvements have been made in both instances. However, because of growth in household formation and industrial output, overall energy consumption has risen over the period in question. It is against the background of rising energy consumption and associated emissions that the Government is introducing emissions trading and carbon taxes.

I will briefly consider renewable energy and its background. Scenario planning, which has been undertaken by the private sector - in this instance, I have in mind the Shell company - and investment outlooks by the International Energy Agency each envisage our future energy requirements being met by an increasing share of renewable energy. This will be driven by the need to curtail emissions and likely price rises as oil and gas reserves deplete. It is important not to lose sight of the fact that both the bodies in question and all international commentators envisage a continuing role for fossil fuels into the medium term. In that connection, it is noteworthy that coal reserves are not forecast for depletion for centuries. There will, therefore, be an increasing interest in what are termed clean coal technologies. We envisage these trends developing.

Ireland has formal targets for the contribution of renewable energy to electricity supply, which were set out in the Green Paper of 1999. While the recent moratorium on wind was unwelcome, it underlines aspects of successful policy implementation. The renewable energy information office of Sustainable Energy Ireland was established to promote awareness, provide information and be a source of advice on the promotion of renewable energy. The office has worked closely with local authorities, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, developers and resource owners with the objective of promoting Government targets in this area.

The existence of a surplus of planning permissions has allowed for a more competitive AER process which is testimony to our success. This contrasts with the experience in the United Kingdom where there was widespread, orchestrated opposition to the development of wind farms. An SEI attitude survey to wind is also included in the information pack.

SEI has successfully promoted Irish membership of several International Energy Agency implementing agreements, covering wind, ocean and biomass. This access to international experience and expertise will provide a deeper and firmer base for future plans and projections for renewable energy. SEI has already brought considerable international expertise to bear on the resolution of several of the technical issues underlying the moratorium on wind. We actively support the recently constituted strategy groups on biomass and CHP. Our support consists of the provision of a chair and a secretariat and the commissioning of independent studies and analyses to support the work of the groups in question.

SEI has a significant research and development programme. Its two main areas of activity are renewable energy and building. Within renewable energy we have the full spectrum of technologies covering wind, ocean, biofuels, biomass and solar. In the buildings area the focus is on energy efficiency, ventilation, solar energy, heat pumps and the orientation and insulation of houses.

I will comment briefly on the built environment before closing. SEI has a significant programme to address fuel poverty in low income households. Under this programme some 4,700 houses were in receipt of measures by the end of 2003. SEI believes that the introduction of a carbon tax will require a ramping up of this programme and, in order to do this effectively, the engagement of private sector resources to deliver the enlarged programme. We said as much in our submission to the Department of Finance on its carbon tax consultation paper.

Implementation of the EU directive on energy performance of buildings presents a formidable challenge. The directive will make energy a visible factor in the process of property purchase and rental, both new and existing stock, affecting over 100,000 transactions per annum. SEI is facilitating a co-ordinated approach by the two lead Departments - the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources - aimed at achieving effective and cost effective implementation across the Irish construction and property sector.

Many members will be familiar with "energy awareness week" which, in the main, is targeted at small consumers and households. As a result of successive campaigns we have seen sales growth of compact fluorescent lamps grow from 50,000 through 70,000 to 170,000 to 225,000 over the promotional period. Last year the campaign had a twin focus, one was "see red, switch off", which targeted standby power consumption on electrical appliances, and the other was an appliance labelling awareness scheme aiming to influence purchase choice, principally of white goods such as refrigerators, washing machines, freezers etc. I intend this year to expand the information with regard to appliances by putting performance, price information and sources on our website, which should also be an interesting consumer information programme.

How did the appliance labelling scheme work? Did people take notice of it?

Mr. Taylor

Yes, there are two ways in which one can measure it. One is the number of purchases of highly rated appliances as compared with lesser efficient appliances and the other is the offering of such appliances on the market by manufacturers. We are seeing a shift in both directions. It is our intention to add to our website information on price as well as information on vendors, energy performance and labelling.

There are simple products like the thermometer card which is in the pack given to members that gives an indication of room temperature. The notable thing about this is that it has high design values and provides accurate information in real time. It enables one to respond or arbitrate on whether a room is too hot or cold. It provides a talking and action point.

Members will be aware that I have not fully described many of our programmes or delved into the details of our research and development programmes, which include several significant resource studies and financial support for researching wind, biomass, wave, heat pumps and solar. Neither have I referenced our educational activities, schools programmes or our achievements in CHP. On a future occasion I would be happy to focus on innovation or any other topic which the committee would wish to examine in more detail.

I thank Mr. Taylor, whom I am delighted to meet. He referred to formal targets for the contribution of renewable energy to electricity supply. What was the reason for the recent moratorium? I gather EirGrid declined to accept wind-powered electricity. That is my understanding of the matter from media reports. Will Mr. Taylor explain what happened in this regard?

Mr. Taylor

I mentioned that we had been particularly successful in achieving planning permissions for wind developments. It is also the case that we have been particularly successful in engaging developers, interested parties and financiers in the same business. If one looks at the number of applications for connection agreements to the electricity grid and the evidence for the number of planning permissions in existence, one finds that there is a large amount of wind capacity with aspirations to connect to the electricity system. The number, rate and total capacity of such applications was such as to give cause for concern to the grid operator. His concerns were several fold but principal among them, and publicly stated, was a concern over the stability of the grid which could arise in the event of a significant amount of wind being connected and being suddenly disconnected for whatever reason, including the failure of the wind to blow. That is at its most easily understood level.

There is a second aspect of the characteristics of wind machines that relates to their ability to ride through what the grid operators call faults, for example a lightning strike on the system where one gets a voltage dip. Under those circumstances a lot of electrical plants would trip out but restart or ride through the fault. The characteristics of wind machines in that regard were questioned by the grid operator and the risk he foresaw in the event of a large number of machines being connected to the grid is that, as a result of a lightning strike, many machines right across the grid could trip out as a result of a single incident. That was the risk. To be clear, that risk was in the future, not present.

Nevertheless, the transmission system operator advised the regulator that this, in his view, was a real risk and cautioned the regulator about further connections. In fact, he advised the regulator that there should be no further connections to the grid until these issues were tackled. Given that deeply understood technical advice on the part of the grid operator, the CER or the regulator would have had little choice - he said this - but to impose a moratorium, which he did reluctantly for three months.

In that period of time two activities took place. One was that the grid code development group accelerated its work programme to address the technical issue of fault ride-through characteristics and other matters. The CER established a separate group to monitor progress on all the issues surrounding aspects of the moratorium which were complex and interacting and to which there was no absolute right or wrong. To frame it succinctly, there was a technical risk, there was a request for a judgment call and a recommendation to support it that was acted on.

I am conscious that other meetings are to take place here and that we need to finish at 3 p.m. at the latest as the room is needed. As I explained to Mr. Taylor, some committee members are also members of other committees so perhaps he could answer the questions more briefly.

Senator Finucane is the vice-chairman of the committee. I thank him for his work in the past six weeks while I was absent.

Mr. Reeves, the electricity regulator, appeared recently before the committee. Much of the discussion revolved around wind energy. The moratorium was a personal disappointment to me, as it must be to Mr. Taylor, in terms of sustainable energy. One of his reports from 2001 states that biomass and wind energy contribute only some 1.5% of electricity consumption, although the situation may have improved since. Mr. Reeves stated that there is only 211 MW of wind energy in the system at present. He also stated that if AER VI were fully completed, the contribution of wind energy would be between 700 MW and 800 MW.

I am aware of the significant increase in interest in wind energy in my county and in other parts of the country, particularly among farming communities and areas of hilly terrain. Mr. Taylor mentioned that there is probably a large capacity between planning permissions and what is in the system at present. Can he quantify that capacity? He mentioned 1,700 MW, if planning permissions are included.

Under the Kyoto Protocol, there was great enthusiasm for wind energy and the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, put great emphasis on increasing wind energy capacity by 2007. The projections that were made must have been based on data and what was feasible. Now there is a moratorium. Has anybody told the different agencies that are promoting wind energy, such as Hibernian Wind Power, Airtricity and so forth, to cease applying for planning permission, given that we are creating an expectation which might not be sustained in the marketplace?

Aside from the AER VI, many other applications in the system have been approved and there must be a list of them by now. Where will that stop? Where is the coherent planning for wind energy? How is it that a situation can arise where the regulator can state there is an inherent risk to the stability of our energy because we have too much wind energy? Surely the experts in this sector, such as Mr. Taylor, the commission, the regulator, EirGrid, the ESB, the Minister or his Department, must have known there was a factor, if one existed, which might affect the stability of the electricity market. If there were such a factor, was a projection made with regard to the percentage of sustainable energy?

This resembles a jumble of jigsaw pieces at present. Mr. Taylor has compiled an interesting report on how wind energy has been accepted in the Irish situation. It is not accepted in all areas, however. I was confronted by people who were objecting to a wind energy project but I told them I was in favour of it for groups of people. There is a lack of enthusiasm in some places, but in general there has been enthusiasm, particularly among the farming community which is experiencing depressed incomes. It is time somebody put the jigsaw pieces together with regard to wind energy. Either we are serious about it or we are not.

Having read the transcripts of the meetings we have had on this issue, it appears that we do not have a long-term strategy. I agree with the vice-chairman that the policy appears to be disorganised. What is your strategy for the next 20 years or even up to 2050? Are we working on a long-term strategy to cover the next 25 to 30 years? Can there be a strategy when your grid is connected with the ESB?

Mr. Taylor

I will respond first to the question on strategy and the stages in it. There was a target in the Green Paper published in 1999 of an additional 500 MW. There is a second target which derives from our intention to comply with the terms of the RES-e directive with a target of 13.2% renewable energy in electricity supply by 2010.

With regard to the long-term target, the Minister released a consultation document at the start of this year. He is seeking inputs on what the longer-term targets should be. We are looking to the future. We are more specific about it depending on the timeframes. We are specific with regard to the short time, indicative with regard to 2010 and exploring the issues for the longer term.

The Senator used the word "jigsaw". It is a good analogy. We are looking at something that must fit in and interlock with a suite of other objectives, three of which I mentioned in the context of sustainable development, namely, economic, social and environmental objectives. The balancing of those three objectives at any point in time is a political issue and a judgment call which the committee members are elected to make. The elements of the jigsaw are market liberalisation, the introduction of competition via new players, the deployment of new technologies both in conventional and new electricity and the adding of generating sources which are different in nature, arising from their intermittence and their unique characteristics, to a system that at one time was centrally planned and administered.

Interlocking those elements presents a formidable challenge. That partly explains the use of the word "jigsaw". It alludes to the complexity of these matters. Much work needs to be done and it is being done in stages by a number of players. No single player has the solution. There are technical insights coming from EirGrid, commercial and regulatory insights coming from the regulator and SEI is active in sourcing international insights into the appropriateness of targets and how they may be delivered.

I asked about the capacity with the planning applications that have been made. What capacity is in the system? Is there some stage when there will be a stop to this and when no further applications can be accepted? There is an expectation in this sector.

As we speak, I am confident that applications are being submitted to planning authorities throughout the country, enthusiastically supported by a group of people in conjunction with the promoters of wind energy. If a stop is not called at some stage, an expectation will be created and there will be disappointment.

Mr. Taylor

We understand that the additional grid applications to hand amount to more than 900 MW. The planning applications are believed to be in excess of 1,200 MW. Both figures should be a matter of public record by the CER, who has recently reviewed the situation as part of his monitoring brief. The figures I have given are just indicative figures.

With regard to expectations, the main support mechanism for wind energy to date has been AER competitions. To have a successful competition and to have tranches of 500 MW, there must be a minimum of 500 MW of planning permissions, preferably a multiple of that to get good value for public money in a competitive situation. It is inevitable in the procurement process that there will be an excess of applications over availability of purchase power agreements. To that extent, there will always be some losers. It is a desirable feature of a competitive system to have such a situation. However, if there is a situation where the number of losers far outweighs the number of winners, one has either over incentivised or, as the Senator suggested, raised expectations to an unreasonable level. No doubt, the public management of the discussion on the moratorium will influence those expectations in the future.

Mr. Taylor briefly mentioned wave energy in his presentation. Can he tell us a little more about that? I attended a seminar about the opening of the King's Mountain wind farm in Sligo and one of the speakers said that 40 times the energy needs of this country blow across the country every year. Is that true?

Mr. Taylor might consider my next questions stupid but I have to ask it. It relates to research and development. Given the intermittent reality of wind, in that it does not blow all the time, is there any research or development - which may be a long way off - on the harnessing and storage of such energy?

Has the delegation any views on the level of investment that will be required to bring the ESB national grid up to the required standard?

Relating to our prior discussion, when does Mr. Taylor expect the problems which have caused the moratorium on wind energy to be resolved?

Mr. Taylor

I will ask Mr. Bazilian to respond on that matter when I have addressed the question about the grid. The level of investment required for the grid is a matter of public record. A submission has been made to the Commissioner for Energy Regulation. He has adjudicated on it and I believe he has currently approved expenditure between €1.7 billion and €2 billion, as part of a wider programme. That is not the whole of it, but I understand that has been approved. The correct source of information on that matter is the regulator.

Regarding new energy sources such as wave, biomass or any other, it is technically possible to produce energy from any of those sources. When it was absolutely necessary during the Second World War, we were able to produce energy from chicken manure. There is another potential, often termed the economic potential, namely, what would be economically justifiable under current availability of alternatives. That would give another answer. A third answer would involve the market potential: where would people, if unfettered, invest their money in order to buy energy?

Overall, when looking at energy policy and alternatives, it is useful to have this level of awareness of potential. The technical potential is always much greater than the economic potential, which itself is usually greater than the market potential. Mr. Bazilian will now offer a view on the way forward regarding the moratorium.

Mr. Morgan Bazilian

With regard to the moratorium, the CER has established a steering group to which Mr. Taylor has alluded. That steering group has now concluded its business for the time being. The moratorium has officially lapsed since 31 March and there remain technical requirements which the transmission system operator has for wind farms, requirements which may take a number of months to satisfy. The Minister has also announced the establishment of a renewable energy development group in the short term. The group is likely to take up issues about the way forward which are outlined not only outside the moratorium group but also in the Minister's consultation document.

I raised one other question, which may have been silly and not worthy of a response, but I would nevertheless like one.

Mr. Taylor

That question was on wind storage. The storage of electricity in large quantities is not currently economic, although there are technology scenarios which one could envisage for storing it, if absolutely necessary. The Deputy is no doubt familiar with the pump storage scheme at Turlough Hill, but the overall efficiency of using such schemes would be low. We are involved in some ongoing research on the matter, principally with University College Cork.

I notice that Mr. Taylor's presentation mentioned biomass, but not biofuels. Does that come into his brief? The committee has a particular interest in a common energy policy, and feels that the Common Agricultural Policy should perhaps be replaced with a common energy policy which would see us growing biofuels across the country on set-aside land. The committee has not yet discussed this, but we have attended a number of conferences, including one in Athens last year, which was the fifth interparliamentary meeting on energy sources development.

Mr. Taylor also mentioned Shell, and the term "scenario planning". How does that accord with the fact that Shell now seems to have got its figures wrong and is in deep trouble with its shareholders, stockmarkets and exchanges throughout the world?

Mr. Taylor

In the biofuels area we are supporting one project, Wexford Biofuels, which will produce rape seed, clarify it and apply it in diesel engines. SEI is also supporting the development of Ireland's response to the biofuels directive, which has an indicative target of 2% by 2005. Finally, I believe we have conducted one resource study on an all-island basis looking at recycled vegetable oil, and I will be pleased to make that study available to the committee.

Regarding Shell and the reserves, I am not competent to comment. I have seen press reports of concerns about pressure depletion even in Saudi Arabia. There is no doubt that fossil fuel or oil and gas production when taken together will peak just about now, or in the near future. It can only decline thereafter.

Mr. Taylor referred to scenario planning by the private sector, with a mention of Shell. Has he some work done, based on its figures and other figures?

Mr. Taylor

No, it is simply that this is the direction towards which energy sources are evolving. We shall see.

Is the strategy coming from Shell?

Mr. Taylor

No. I merely instanced one example. There are many such scenarios. For example, the International Energy Agency, which is a government think tank in this area, also sees a requirement for more renewable sources of energy in the future.

If the word "Shell" were taken out, would the rest of the statement be correct?

Mr. Taylor

It is correct as it stands, and would also be correct with the word "Shell" removed.

I am pleased to hear that. I thank Mr. Taylor for attending today. I apologise that one of the committee members from the Opposition is attending a conference in Kilkenny, while Deputy Coveney is attending another conference. Deputy Broughan has sent an apology, and is keenly interested in the energy module we are currently undertaking. We may have some questions for Mr. Taylor once we have considered the documents and the presentation and we may ask him to return before we finish consideration of our energy module. The committee may well decide to make a report on the various presentations made, so we may need some clarification from Mr. Taylor. The exchange today has been useful, and helpful to the committee in understanding what is happening in the market regarding renewable energy, and the strategy adopted by Sustainable Energy Ireland. Again I thank Mr. Taylor, Ms Kelleher and Mr. Bazilian.

Mr. Taylor

I thank the Chairman and the members. It will be a pleasure to respond to any further questions and to meet the committee at any other time.

The Joint Committee adjourned at 2.50 p.m. sine die.
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