Joint Committee on Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 2018

The Arts for All: Discussion

Chairman

Tá ceathrar comhaltaí i láthair, mar is gá, Teachta Dála agus Seanadóir san áireamh. Mar sin is féidir linn an cruinniú a thosnú. Níl leithscéal faighte ó éinne. Comhairlím ar chomhaltaí a ngutháin phóca a mhúchadh ionas nach gcuireann siad isteach ar chóras fuaime agus craolacháin an chruinnithe. De réir mar atá comhaontaithe ag an Coiste um Nós Imeachta maidir le coistí gan pháipéir, tá na cápéisí go léir a bhaineann leis an gcruinniú curtha ar bhunachar na gcáipéisí agus seolta chuig na baill. Is é an t-ábhar a mbeidh á phlé ag an gcoiste inniu ná na healaíona do chách.

Several groups will attend the meeting. We will suspend for a couple of minutes until the guests have taken their seats.

Sitting suspended at 1.41 p.m. and resumed at 1.42 p.m.

Chairman

Taimíd í seisiún poiblí. Ba liom fáilte a chur romhaibh go léir anseo inniu daoibhse. I thank the witnesses for coming along to our meeting to discuss arts for all. Members of the Sherkin Island Development Society, SIDS, have travelled a long distance to be with us today. Given that distance we will hear Ms Aisling Moran and Ms Majella O'Neill Collins from SIDS first in case they have made arrangements to catch trains, etc. From the National College of Art and Design we have Professor Sarah Glennie, director, and Professor Dervil Jordan, head of the school of education. From Age and Opportunity Ireland we have Dr. Tara Byrne and Ms Helen O'Donoghue. Arts and Disability Ireland is represented by Mr. Pádraig Naughton and Ms Leah Johnston. From McAuley Place, Naas, we have Mr. Brian Rowntree and Ms Margharita Solon.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statements and any other documents they have submitted to the committee may be published on the committee's website after this meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We ask witnesses to keep their presentations to approximately five minutes because there is such a big group today. Further elements of their presentations can be teased out through questions and answers later.

I invite our friends from Sherkin Island Development Society, SIDS, to start.

Ms Aisling Moran

We thank our local Deputies and members for inviting us to this meeting of the joint committee. We are honoured to be here and feel passionate about the bachelor of arts in visual arts, BAVA, on Sherkin Island, accredited by the Dublin Institute of Technology, DIT. For those who do not know, Sherkin Island is known internationally and locally as the "Island of the Arts". The BAVA programme is a key driver in the island's economy. It is a grassroots initiative taken by the island community which grasped the key issue of population decline and decided to build an economy through the arts. There are five people living permanently on the island as a result of the programme. In a time when traditional island incomes such as farming and fishing are in decline we have created skilled jobs in the community for three roles divided between four people. This brings great benefit to the island.

Approximately €60,000 in funding is required every year to deliver the programme. For an investment of €60,000, a programme valued at approximately €415,000 is delivered by the community, DIT, the West Cork Arts Centre and voluntary input. We market Sherkin as the island of the arts. We have done surveys - further surveys are needed - which show the economic spin-off of the bachelor of arts in visual arts programme for the area is approximately €150,000. The BAVA programme provides value for money and is a very successful arts course. It is a full-time four-year degree programme accredited by DIT. Students attend classes on site for four years every alternate weekend. Classes are held in a local community hall. The facility is nothing fancy, which proves that high-end quality education can be delivered anywhere.

The programme was established by the Sherkin Island Development Society, DIT and the West Cork Arts Centre as a degree course in 2007, following a successful pilot programme which ran from 2000 until 2006. As the community partner, SIDS is responsible for accommodation and facilities, including the community hall, and direct employment of an arts facilitator, information technology facilitator and administrator. Between 2012 and 2016, the programme was co-funded by the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and Cork County Council. In May 2016, the co-funding agreement was altered to provide that the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht would contribute 60% of funding and Cork County Council would contribute the remaining 40%. The costs are broken down as €45,000 for wages and employers' pay-related social insurance, PRSI, and €15,000 for running costs, which include maintenance, insurance, professional fees, rent and materials. The course provides value for money.

Within these four walls, in this great building, the Government and local authorities are seeking measures to tackle depopulation and other problems in rural Ireland. The Sherkin Island community has an innovative programme which it wants to keep and secure for the future. The bachelor of arts in visual arts is tried and tested. It provides employment, directly supports 5% of the full-time residents on the island, brings inward investment and contributes to the island's social, cultural and economic life. As the island of the arts, Sherkin Island has a sustainable tourism product. We are a big part of the Wild Atlantic Way and cultural Ireland. The BAVA programme is a significant part of our identity in west Cork. It drives the reputation of the island as a centre of culture and the arts. It is a service for which there is a demand and need. For this reason, we need to keep it and secure its future.

We need preapproved funding for communities so that we do not have to have €60,000 upfront every year. It is a big ask for a small community to find that amount of money and to decide whether to borrow it and pay interest on it. We thank all our partners, particularly our funders in the Department who have been on board and supported us down the years, as well as Cork County Council which has committed to another three years in funding. It looks like we have secured the funding going forward and we are looking for a sustainable way to make this programme work. It is a massive draw, not only to Sherkin Island but to west Cork and rural Ireland. It does not have to be done in arts - it can be for any type of education. We have lost our primary school and we are struggling to get an education for our kids at primary level so it is important to hang on to our arts degree programme on the island. We will tackle the primary school issue in another way but we have to hang on to some level of education and the arts are a huge part of our identity.

Ms O'Neill Collins will talk about the arts side of the programme. She is an artist, a facilitator, and islander and a founder of this. She is passionate about it and she knows the arts inside out.

Ms Majella O'Neill Collins

I have been involved in this for 17 years and I came to the island almost 30 years ago. When I first came, fishing and farming were important for the island but, unfortunately, they have disappeared and the arts are now our strength. Sherkin Island is unique and people are now coming to the island, when they used to have to leave the island. This project could be tried on any of the islands. The most important thing is that, instead of a gallery, artists use the beach, the farms and the kitchens. Any college could set up in a rural area but in this case the community is very involved. A student working on REPS got involved with the farmers and did something on social dancing, which brought people out of themselves and led to information being shared. The farmers, fishermen and ferry people all share their information on the history and culture of the place and the artists feed into that.

When a show is done for the degree course it stays on the island for two days and some 1,000 people come onto the island. Many artists, writers, poets and musicians live in the island population and from September to May some 40 more come in, which makes a huge difference to the pubs and restaurants, the hotel and the hostel. In the winter time there is an extra buzz from all this. Without it the island would be dead. People stay for weekends and do installations, videos etc. There is a lot of contemporary art and the islanders have a sense of pride in it all because they feel ownership of it.

I was able to raise my children on the island and if I did not have the job I would have had to commute. Many people have been involved and everyone has given blood, sweat and tears to make it work. One gets worn down when one is always hunting for money. We go to the United States for St. Patrick's Day and showcase our artists, which is special for an island of only 90 people. I want my kids to come back and bring their kids but without this course a lot of things will die. The funders came and saw the amount of energy on the island and the diversity of what was happening. Artists work with exciting political issues and personal things and it feeds into Uillinn, the west Cork arts centre, and it is a hub that keeps going. We all are in the same situation and have to get on. It would be amazing if the Government and the powers that be could give it the energy it deserves.

Some 15 people are applying for the next run and we were blessed to have the Museum of Modern Art involved. The Tate Modern in Liverpool was also involved and Dr. Michael Birchall opened the show for us. He was blown away by it. Jesse Jones represented Ireland at the Biennale and came to lecture here. These are big names and we are proud to have them in Sherkin. If we could just have a bit more the world would be our oyster.

Chairman

That was a fascinating presentation and gave us an insight into what is happening. I ask the witnesses from the National College of Art and Design to make their presentation.

Professor Sarah Glennie

The National College of Art and Design, NCAD, is Ireland's leading art and design college. We offer the largest number of art and design degrees in the State at undergraduate and postgraduate level. Located in the heart of the Liberties in Dublin 8, the NCAD is a small college with just over 1,200 students and 600 part-time evening students. The benefit of this is that we are flexible and capable of responding to local needs.

The impact of the NCAD is felt far beyond the campus on Thomas Street. Our graduates are innovators, co-creators and self-starters and are evident in all aspects of the economy from public engagement through working in public institutions, to technology and industry. We have a long history of connecting our students and programmes with partners in education, the cultural sector and civil society. Our contribution to enabling wider participation in the arts is seen in the work of our students as they follow their paths out of college across a range of fields and our school of education trains our country's art teachers. All our students are encouraged, though their education, to think about the role of their practice as they leave college and the ways they can connect their work to either a specific audience or a specific context.

The NCAD has a long and very embedded commitment to access to art college and we will outline the access policy today. We will reflect on some of the complex and deep-rooted social and economic factors that can militate against wider participation in the arts and how, since 2005, we started to tackle under-representation in the NCAD using a participatory and inclusive approach.

Professor Dervil Jordan

We started an access programme in the NCAD 15 years ago and it was initially embedded in the school of education. It now operates across the entire college but it still has its roots very much in education and provides a pedagogical approach to access that permeates all the programmes.

Chairman

A mobile phone is switched on which is affecting the broadcasting. I ask everybody to switch off their mobile phones..

Professor Dervil Jordan

As Professor Glennie said, we are a very small college in the heart of Dublin and we are capable of responding to local needs. We have built relationships and established partnerships within the local community, with 35 DEIS primary schools and 42 DEIS secondary schools. We also have a range of outreach programmes in the greater Dublin area and County Dublin. Our focus is on bringing students into the campus.

This remains a key priority in terms of the access days we provide, our student shadowing programmes where the students spend time working along NCAD students, and our mentoring programme through which our student teachers mentor access students interested in a career in art and design. We also provide portfolio scholarship programmes over the summer and during the year for students from disadvantaged areas. We recognise the critical role played by teachers in raising academic aspirations for disadvantaged students and we have a whole range of pre-entry programmes of engagement with primary and post primary schools. We have a supplementary admissions route. We have post-entry support and, more recently, we provide a postgraduate studio support residency programme for our graduated access students.

In terms of the barriers to higher education in art and design, admission policies generally in Irish colleges are very competitive and selective, and entrance to art college can represent a double disadvantage for students with little cultural capital and little knowledge of the field. Increasingly, many middle-class families avail of private tuition for their children such as grinds or portfolio courses, summer schools and trips abroad to galleries and museums, to gain some advantage in this competitive educational terrain. For our access students the prospect of getting into an art college can be very complex. The portfolio alone is a huge challenge with somewhat vague career prospects for those people in the art and design industry, particularly if they choose to do fine art, which is a pretty precarious profession. Our access students, who come from a non-traditional route, may look different when they come to college. They may feel different, act differently or dress differently. It is very important for us to be able to make our access students, with whom we have made contact through the schools, feel that NCAD is their home and that they can come back and consider a career in this field.

In terms of a cross-institutional collaborative approach, I am sure many committee members are aware of the HEA funded programme for access to higher education, PATH. It is aimed at widening participation throughout third level for those most disadvantaged and minority groups in our society. NCAD is working alongside Trinity College Dublin, UCD, Marino Institute of Education and Dún Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design and Technology in a three-pronged approach to widening participation. Path one is based on initial teacher education and trying to increase the number of learners from this particular area who go into the further education sector. Path two involves the 1916 bursaries. I am not sure whether the committee is aware of them, but this year 80 bursaries were given out to students from disadvantaged backgrounds across the five colleges. Path three is bridges to learning, which deals with more in-depth for work packages under the umbrella of Dublin as a learning city. This includes open learning modules in the universities and mentoring students from minority groups in the third level sector. NCAD is particularly involved in leading the creative arts summer school, which starts next week, across the five campuses. This is rolling out now and we are looking forward to a very co-ordinated approach across the sectors.

The community engagements in which we are involved are very much a range of local partnerships in the arts and beyond. I will not go into huge detail, but these include IMMA with which we have a very strong relationship because we are on a cultural corridor in Thomas Street, luckily, and the national galleries and museums and Collins Barracks are all very close to us in the heart of the city. We have a strong relationship with IMMA in terms of our school's visual culture, fine art and education. We have future creators, which is an after-school digital learning programme for young people co-funded with Digital Hub. Rialto youth project involves Easter and summer art programmes in NCAD in collaboration with our cultural institutions. We also have student placements. mentoring and campus engagement with smaller groups such as SOLAS and Tallaght Community Arts. NCAD runs an entrepreneurship summer camp with Axis Ballymun and the Rediscovery Centre in Ballymun. This is a snapshot for the committee of some of the work NCAD does in our access programme.

Professor Sarah Glennie

NCAD is very committed to our students. All art and design students are challenged through their learning to consider how their creative work will find a place in society and to think about the context for their work with potential audiences and the potential for their work as artists in collaborating with people working in specific contexts and different audiences. We are starting a new initiative in September, studio plus, which is a new voluntary year for students between second year and third year. The programme will encourage them to take their work out of the campus and work in different places in the community around us. An example of this is our collaboration with Mercer's Institute for Successful Ageing in St. James's Hospital. Throughout all of next year we will have students embedded in that unit. The studios will be there and the teaching will take place in that institute. It has an incredible innovative creative life programme and the students will be part of this.

For 25 years NCAD ran a learning programme in Portlaoise Prison, with NCAD staff providing opportunities for creative engagement for people in prison, critically at the same level of those being offered to people in third level education. A lot of participants in that programme then went on to partake in further education in art and design. In the context of today's discussion, we mention this as a past programme because we think it is a really good and clear example of where long-term investment and engagement really do lead to change.

The other learning we wanted to bring to the table from our history of engaging beyond the campus with people in creativity is the value of cross-sectoral collaboration, where we think beyond the silos in which we operate, which are often dictated by funding models more than anything else. Professor Jordan mentioned an example of this. As an educational institute we have collaborated with national cultural institutions such as IMMA.

We welcome the commitment of the committee to broadening participation in the arts, and we recommend that Government initiatives to support this are reflective of the ongoing work happening in a range of organisations in the educational sector and in cultural institutions, and that there is a commitment at policy level to longitudinal research in arts participation, something that has never really happened at a significant level in Ireland. This would provide us with real evidential data of the impact of the creative arts for all of us to build informed strategies so we can really think about how, through creative art, we can meet the needs of our changing society in future.

Chairman

Go raibh míle maith agat. Bhí sé sin an-shuimiúil ar fad. I invite the representatives from Age and Opportunity to make their presentation.

Dr. Tara Byrne

I thank the Chairman and the committee. We are honoured to be able to speak today about the Bealtaine Festival. We will speak about the demand, role and need for the festival in Ireland and beyond, the personal value that accrues from the festival to the individuals who participate in it, the State value and benefits that come from it in a secondary way and in the context of the policies around us, and we will make some recommendations at the end.

I thought I would present with some images and I was going to show a range of images from this year's festival. At the centre of the festival are individuals, who are at the centre of all arts activity. This is obvious in the images of people who dominate the festival and in the images of groups of people connecting with each other. It is about the personhood of the individual, which is something that gerontologists talk about all of the time. It is hugely important to all of us no matter what age we are but particularly as we get older. It is about the social connections that come from attending our festival. These were the two key points I was going to make through using images.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

We have copies of the presentations.

Dr. Tara Byrne

I can answer questions afterwards on the images. We believe creativity is a lifelong journey, and the life course of people engaging in the arts and creativity is key.

I will make some points on ageing and the arts, which might be new to some committee members but certainly will not be new to others who are here. I do not need to go over the figures. We all know that Ireland, as a western country, is getting older and by 2040 approximately one in four of us will be 65 and over.

That is something the State is considering well in advance. It is positive that we are living longer and healthier lives. It should not be seen in a negative light, which is something we are used to from some media coverage. It means people continue to be engaged and have more time to be engaged in different activities. They demand rich and meaningful engagement. As a State, we must take care of that, which is what we are doing with the festival.

There is a demand for the festival and we see that every day it runs. We see it in what is said to us after people have been to an event and we see it in the audience surveys we carry out every single year. We see it in the evaluation we do every single year. We have 100,000 people who come to our festival from every county in Ireland. We see it also in the emails we get from all over the world from people who say they do not have a festival like this. They tell us the work is amazing and ask what they can do. We also have people from across the world who come to our festival. I met five people from Japan, Canada, the UK and Germany who came specifically for the festival this year. There is definitely a demand. In 2017, Age UK carried out wellbeing research which surveyed 100,000 older people in the UK. The No. 1 factor contributing to their wellbeing was access to creativity. That was ahead of financial security and health, which was pretty meaningful.

Regarding ageing and the arts, I mentioned earlier that there are many benefits to all art activity. The reasons we get involved in the arts are the personal benefits first and foremost. They provide the intrinsic value and are about how we create a sense of identity for ourselves and meaning throughout the arts. That is incredibly important as we get older. It is there throughout our life course but as we get older, there is sometimes a suggestion that one's self identify has stopped somewhere along the way. That is simply not true. We continue to create and recreate our sense of self and the festival focuses on that. Selfhood is key to it. From those personal benefits, however, come societal and State benefits. I mentioned the social connection that comes from attending the festival and meeting one's friends there. We also run an audience network where we put together older people who want to come to the festival and to arts events in general. We co-ordinate those events around the country and actively put people together.

If one wants to look at it from a public policy perspective rather than simply from a consideration of the personal benefits, the confidence and connections which emerge from the festival obviously contribute to social cohesion. Our Sherkin Island friends here outlined the importance of that. We see it also in the Bealtaine festival. There are also physical benefits which are sometimes harder for people to see. Research has proven that there are cognitive benefits from a focused and deep engagement in arts activities. Those things are crucial for older people. It is very important for the State to take that into account along with the sense of wellbeing which is at the centre of the festival.

To say a little about the festival itself, it is produced by Age and Opportunity Ireland, which is a national organisation that promotes wellbeing and quality of life in older age through education, sport and culture, which is where we come in. We are funded through the Arts Council and the Health Service Executive and we are all about partnerships. The festival takes place every single day of every May of every year. We cannot do it without the partnerships we have in each and every county. We are extremely community connected. We have a network of thousands of organisations and events every year. This was founded in the 1990s in response to a need and we have a long pedigree now. A founder member, Ms Helen O'Donoghue, curator at the Irish Museum of Modern Art, is with me here. The identified need was the need for access to the arts and creativity at all ages and, in particular perhaps, as we get older and have a bit more time to get back to things we did not have time for when we were working. That is when one is not working in the arts, of course.

The festival is about access first, but also about representation. We need to be able to see ourselves in the world around us to have that sense of selfhood. As one gets older, some people, albeit not all, can feel more invisible. The arts provides a very public way for people to see themselves mirrored in the world around them. We try to tell the stories of all of us as we get older and we try to hold ourselves up very publicly to the world through the arts with the festival. It is about visibility and representation. It is about showing the individual's spirit, no matter what one's age. One can be 80 and just as feisty and different an individual as a 20 year old. One of the things that happens as one gets older is that one is homogenised into a ghettoised block as if one is part of a special interest group. It is as if one loses a sense of self and is somehow amorphous. As all of us who are getting older know, it does not work like that. The framework for all of this is a celebration of the contribution of older people in Irish public life and the arts. It is really about celebrating the contribution of age.

In a policy context, we feel we could do a bit better. Obviously, we fit into broad Government policies, some of which are set out in the documents before the members. Those policies are very much about older people staying active and sometimes creativity is tagged on. We fit into arts policies most specifically. Most recently, one pillar of Creative Ireland is creative communities which is about enabling every community to be creative. As the festival takes place all over the country, we believe we very much fulfil that policy objective. We are also part of Making Great Art Work, which is the Arts Council's policy document, but we are implied rather than listed. Young people are very much part of that document. Our view is that the policy needs to take account of the life course of all of us. In the same way that young people are very important, and I do not take away from that for a minute, older people could be recognised explicitly rather than implicitly in a policy context. There is also, of course, Culture 2025.

I will leave the committee with a couple of recommendations. We meet a strong need. The arts have a very particular role to play in older life in relation to identity, meaning, activity and health. Because of those social and personal benefits, we feel we address an equity issue. If I were to leave the members with one thing, it would be the need to look at the life course of people engaging in the arts in relation to policy.

Chairman

We like recommendations so keep them coming. Fair play. I ask Arts and Disability Ireland to make its presentation now.

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

I thank the committee on behalf of Arts and Disability Ireland for the invitation to speak to the members. Arts and Disability Ireland is the national development and resource organisation for arts and disability. Our role is to champion the creativity of artists with disabilities and to promote inclusive experiences for audiences with disabilities. Guided by our strategic plan, Leading Change in Arts and Culture 2017-2021, our board, staff, stakeholders and funders, including our principal funder, the Arts Council, Arts and Disability Ireland works nationally through a series of multi-annual partnerships across the arts and cultural environment. In 2017, this has resulted in 18 projects, 17 accessible performances and exhibitions and support for 24 artists in the creation of new work, showcasing, mentoring and training across nine local authorities.

In 2014, Arts and Disability Ireland was invited by the Arts Council to devise and manage a new funding scheme for artists with disabilities in Ireland. Entitled "Arts and Disability Connect", the scheme is now in its fifth year and has supported 47 awards and distributed more than €132,000. The only scheme exclusively open to artists with disabilities, it was designed to serve as an entry point to the broad range of bursaries, project and production awards, commissions and collaborations available through the Arts Council and local authority arts offices. However, we have identified while managing the scheme the need for a separate production award and the creation of new family-friendly work.

In 2006, Arts and Disability Ireland initiated the very first of our access services for audiences with disabilities with audio described performances at the Abbey Theatre and during the Dublin Theatre Festival.

Over the years a small number of venues and festivals have started providing Irish Sign Language, ISL, and, more recently, relaxed performances. Currently, we are the sole provider of audio description and captioning to the arts in Ireland.

Arts & Disability Ireland's audio description and captioning across Ireland peaked in 2014, with 23 and 30 performances, respectively, but declined to nine and seven in 2017. If we compare that to Scotland, last year there were 248 audio described and 68 captioned performances in 2017. A deaf woman told me that her seeing a captioned performance of Romeo and Juliet at the Abbey Theatre came 17 years after she had studied the play for her leaving certificate.

A Strategy for Equality, the report of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities, was published in 1996 and identified a network of national venues where audio description, captioning and ISL should be made available but 22 years later, these recommendations have yet to be realised in their entirety and are certainly something collectively we need to revisit. The Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act 2014 introduced the new public sector duty under section 42 of that legislation. This is an encouraging tool to enable public bodies to embed human rights and equality, including disability. However, the section offers no direct legal remedy for failure to comply. Consequently, we encourage the committee to consider how the public sector duty under the 2014 Act will be realised in the context of an arts and culture environment.

In 2017, Arts & Disability Ireland commissioned the Going Out survey with the aim of understanding how people with disabilities engage with arts and culture in its broadest sense. The largest quantitative audience survey of its type ever undertaken in Ireland, Arts & Disability Ireland reached 523 respondents with the strategic input of the National Disability Authority and over 20 other disability organisations. The research indicates clearly that people with disabilities attend the arts, so it makes good sense to make arts attendance accessible to people with disabilities. This is 643,131 people and 64% want to attend arts events more often. If we made it possible for just half of them to come one more time, bringing a friend or family member with them, the arts and cultural sector stands to earn an additional €7 million.

If I were to use one example to illustrate our vision for the arts, it would be Ignite. This 2013 to 2015 partnership between the Arts Council, Arts & Disability Ireland and local authorities in Mayo, Galway and Cork created three new commissions each worth €60,000, led by internationally recognised artists with disabilities. This culminated with Cork Ignite on Culture Night 2015, Simon McKeown’s 28-minute, large-scale projection that filled the façade of Cork College of Commerce and involved visual artists and musicians with disabilities from across the city. With Ignite, we achieved so much of what is great about the arts, including collaboration, partnership, innovation and spectacle for an audience of 10,000 people. We also illustrated that public investment in arts and disability can create opportunities for people with disabilities to contribute to the arts and cultural life of Ireland at the highest level and cause a city to stop and notice. As one citizen of Cork put it:

I never thought that I’d be sitting down on the banks of the River Lee, in the month of September, on a cool autumn evening, enjoying myself. It was out of this world.

If there is time, Ms Leah Johnston, Arts & Disability Ireland's project manager, who worked on much of the statistical information and research, and I would be happy to take questions at the end.

Chairman

Míle buíochas. It is amazing and sometimes we forget that access is a two-way street. It is not just about more consumption of arts but there is also the creation of more demand for performances.

Mr. Brian Rowntree

It is a pleasure to be here and share a platform with colleagues from the arts world. We have seen through all the presentations that arts is plural and it is about having a collegiate approach. There are those in our society who are seeking an engagement with the arts and there are people creating the product and developing the service that arts can offer.

McAuley Place is pretty unique in many ways and it is a pleasure and honour for me to be its chairman, given that I am not originally from Ireland. I am from Northern Ireland. I took over the chairmanship of McAuley Place last November and it has been an absolute privilege to interact with those who have such a vision for a wonderful environment as McAuley Place.

For those who do not know it, McAuley Place is located in Naas, County Kildare. It is primarily a housing association - that was the original intent - and it provides 53 units of accommodation for those advancing in years. It is first-class accommodation that is home for people, and the primary aim of McAuley Place is to provide a home. For those who do not know me, I was previously chairman of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive for ten years. I have always used the phrase, "It is not where you live but how you live". Accommodation can be built that suits a location but it might not suit the people who want to live there. The environment in which one lives dictates how one lives and how one conducts one's life in accordance with circumstances. The arts play a major part in creating that environment so people can enjoy the social interaction that comes with living in whatever environment they inhabit.

McAuley Place has expanded and is a €1 million-plus community enterprise. Its income streams are generated from rental income, tea rooms, charity shops, a community centre and cultural activities and donations. There is a fantastic sense of spirit within the town centre. The resident base is varied and covers many traditions, and visitors and those who participate in our activities are from many traditions and nationalities. There is a mix of genders and people from rural and urban backgrounds. There are people who have come to live in an urban environment who were previously in rural areas and it is fantastic to hear their view on engagement with the arts. We have created an environment where people can enjoy living while contributing to how we develop that environment. Ms Margharita Solon had the vision for McAuley Place and I am honoured for her to be here today. We are a double act in many ways and she will contribute on the aspects of her vision being translated into reality through the delivery of some programmes and activities.

We have much more to do. There is a housing requirement - a term I use carefully - but we must get the right type of housing and the right environment in order to create the right communities and develop the correct ethos for living. We must also create a culture where the arts and those involved with the arts understand what is meant by people "living". It is not about creating something people do not want but rather creating something that people can buy into. We must work with those in the arts family to refine and advance the product.

This is critical because we live in a new world of digital connection and we must bring that world into the arts, which is a challenge for us.

In many ways our biggest challenge in McAuley Place is Government policy, where Government policy sits in relation to Government resources and how that is matched with the collective vision of everyone in this room and others outside. It is a question of how we bring this pluralism of vision, resource and policy to the table and how we can advance our thinking accordingly. We have one big vision, which is our health-through-learning centre, on which Ms Solon will elaborate in a few moments. That vision is still just a vision for us because the reality is that we find it difficult to find the right funding streams for us to take it forward. The commitment of our organisation is that we will have to do that ourselves. We have to go into advance borrowings as an organisation but we want to create and breathe life into that vision and create an additional, very positive activity stream for McAuley Place.

I believe McAuley Place brings a sense of hub to living in Naas. Most people, if not everyone, around Naas knows McAuley Place; our challenge is to get to know them. Their knowing us is fine, but we must know them. We must advance our thinking in society. We must do arts with society but also within society. The challenge is to get the "with" and the "within" on the right platform.

I will hand over to Ms Solon.

Ms Margharita Solon

Thar ceann ár mbord bainistíochta, is mór an onóir dúinn a bheith libh anseo inniu. Go raibh míle maith agaibh. We are honoured and proud to have Mr. Rowntree. He is a visionary. He talks not about processes but about people, about how processes serve people and people do not serve processes. As soon as he came to McAuley Place, he hit the ground running and he got exactly what it is we are about and what we want to do. I know he will take us to new heights. We are absolutely honoured and privileged to have him here.

Dr. Byrne made the really interesting statement that we are hearing an awful lot more about an ageing society and that by 2040 there will be so many people over the age of 65. In 2020, I will be 65. What do I want? This is about me and my ageing. This is about my one year old grandson - no one ever had a grandchild before me - and the kind of society I want for him and where I want my 30 year old kids to be. I want them to be in a place like McAuley Place where the arts connect us. It is not that the old ones are over there, the children are in the crèche over there, the disabled are over there and there is a programme going on here. We are a community and we all live together, and the commonality between all of us is our creativity, which is part of the aspiration of Creative Ireland. When I am 65, when I have a little more time, I want to learn how to arrange flowers like they do in the craft group in McAuley Place. I want the opportunity to publish my own poetry in a poetry book in McAuley Place. I want the opportunity to be in an arts project like the intergenerational community arts project that went on for over a year and brought carers, people with disabilities, people with learning challenges, unemployed people and everyone else all together. However, there were no labels or badges. The people connected because they were learning and doing something together. One lady who participated in this arts project had terminal cancer. She was living in McAuley Place. Within two weeks of her moving into McAuley Place, she halved her pain medication. Her condition was still bad, still deteriorating, but the arts, creativity and connection were releasing dopamine that was making her feel far better than any medical prescription could.

As Mr. Rowntree said, we want to develop our vision for this old building, this health-through-learning centre. People still look at us and say, "What?" and we say "health through learning". Likewise, people asked us why we were providing housing in the heart of the town for older people and said such housing is always on the periphery of the town. "Housing with intergenerational what?" they asked. "With intergenerational facilities," we replied. They asked us what we meant by a creative model rather than a medical model. Now they are coming from all over Ireland to see what it is we have done. I have absolutely no doubt but that when, not if, we get the funding to complete this health-through-learning centre, it will be another flagship not only for Ireland, but beyond Europe. Our health-through-learning centre will consist of a community lounge, just like a residents' lounge in a hotel. If one is from the community, one can be in the lounge. A label is not needed. It is not that one is unemployed, has mental health issues, has disabilities, is new to the town or is an asylum seeker. That does not matter. If one is from the town, one can go into the community lounge. One can go through the community lounge and out into an incredible urban woodland garden with a river running through it, where one can connect with the environment and with nature. It is an amazing space that makes one feel well.

Then one can go into the three creative making rooms, where we have activities such as woodturning, weaving, flower arranging and basket making. There are opportunities for people from NCAD to do this outreach with us, exactly the same thing Ms O'Neill Collins was talking about: repopulating areas. Naas has been devastated with ribbon development outside the town, but McAuley Place is bringing people back in. It will bring even more people back in so it has an economy of scale in itself. We are doing all that we are already doing with what we have. As Mr. Rowntree said, this is creating an even better hub in order that when, not if, we develop more houses, we do not need to replicate everything about McAuley Place. McAuley Place is the hub that connects to these other satellite communities that we have created, that are intergenerational, creative and artistic.

Mr. Brian Rowntree

The Chairman said earlier he was looking for recommendations. If I may be so bold as to put one or two forward, I believe it is in the interests of us all to look at the social capital we have available to us and to maximise the opportunity from that. This is not about efficiency savings; it is about best value. It is about stretching the envelope of opportunity as opposed to restricting the envelope of spend. I believe that social capital needs to be understood and interrogated further. Many organisations have huge amounts of social capital, as does Government, and we should do more research to look at what we can bring to the table and how we structure that in the form of partnerships, strategic alliances, closer associates, etc.

We should look at training and development in a structured fashion for volunteers, particularly around arts and culture. We should look at models of intervention that add accreditation and value so people can feel rewarded in a different fashion for what they do because they have some badge of respect that says they have contributed and their contribution has been understood and acknowledged.

We must have a more co-ordinated policy around intergenerational activity which looks at appreciation, respect and development in these areas, where the outflows add to the other recommendation I have outlined. We also need to establish a nationwide network of key hubs, which I think can be done quite swiftly, key centres into which people can feed. Those can then have sub-hubs, but we need a nationwide network of regional hubs through which we can filter ideas, learning and development, and then we can outflow from those in a structured fashion. The co-ordination of the arts is the simplistic part, its development is more long term, but the understanding of the arts is the job we have in hand. We must work harder and more smartly at understanding the value and the contribution the arts make to how one lives, not where one lives.

Again, on behalf of McAuley Place, I thank the committee.

Chairman

Míle buíochas. That was fascinating. I thank the witnesses. We appreciate it. I will open the discussion up to our colleagues now to ask questions. Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell was the first with her hand up.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

It is most refreshing to be around colleagues and what John McGahern called freshwater people. People who work in the arts are always freshwater people - good trout. I thank all the witnesses for being here because we got from them a really tremendous sense of the arts as it relates to youth, education, lifelong learning and the elderly.

I will ask a few very specific questions and then the witnesses can come back in and answer me as they see fit. The first question is could the committee visit Sherkin Island? What is the standard of the work? Will Ms Moran and Ms O'Neill Collins talk to me a little about that? Why do I not know more about it? They can be thinking about these questions as we go. Ms O'Neill Collins's contribution about any college coming to a rural area was a brilliant idea, and I would link it into something Ms Solon talked about, namely, that combination of people coming in and bringing their own knowledge and others learning from them as well as gifting their own knowledge. The course is validated through DIT. If we want to recognise the course more, do we give it more money? Is that what the witnesses want? Will they nail that for me and why I do not know more about it?

I know the Bealtaine Festival very well. I admire it and think it is extraordinary. Dr. Byrne makes the same point Ms Solon makes, that access to creativity is access to great health and that great health is great creativity.

The witness makes that point from that extraordinary survey. I was at a big organisational event this morning about positive ageing and life ageing in towns and villages. Creativity was only tagged onto things. It was not central to what people were discussing. Will the witness expand on the point that political parties, and perhaps all Departments, should have an arts section? If the organisation was looking for one thing for this committee to make real what would it be?

Can the representative from Arts and Disability Ireland say if Ignite is being reignited?

Can the representative of the NCAD tell us a little about the Mercer Hospital ageing unit and the Creative Life Centre? Why has the college not argued for 25 extra points in the Central Applications Office, CAO, system to open up the arts for study by students? We readily do it for mathematics. What other things would the representative like to see NCAD doing, if it had a wish list?

On McAuley Place, could the committee visit it? Can the witness tell the committee a little more about its music series, its art, its environmental art, the Alzheimer's choir and the food hall? I know about them but the committee might like to hear about them.

My questions are really about what we can do. Much of this can be policy and talk, which is very good and ethereal, but what can we do? We are discussing something really interesting. If we are going to age and age well, creativity must be the start of it. When people talk about technology they always talk about creativity. When they talk about economics they also talk about creativity. However, we do not look at it artistically or we tag it onto something else or we have our eye on the main chance that it is to do with tourism and it makes money. However, it is brilliant in itself. If we started from that premise we might go further.

The witnesses might have other things they want to say that they might not have said earlier or that my questions might have sparked in them. These are not examination questions but for expansion.

Ms Aisling Moran

I am delighted the Senator asked those questions because they are some of the matters I wished to cover. She made the point that we tag the arts onto something else. Sherkin Island Development Society does that. That is how we get our funding and our validation. It is tagged onto tourism, the economy or something because if we just look at it as it is it is sometimes not recognised for how great it is. Majella O'Neill will be able to tell the committee about that shortly.

With regard to a visit, everybody in the room is welcome to visit Sherkin Island. We will put them on a ferry on a beautiful day and they can all visit. We are very lucky that the programme co-ordinator from DIT, Dr. Glenn Loughran, is amazing. We have visiting lecturers. As Majella O'Neill mentioned, we had Jesse Jones and Dr. Michael Birchall from the Tate Modern. Throughout the course of the academic year DIT has people visit and give lectures. We open that up to the community so they are probably the best times for people to visit. We will let the members know about it. We are lucky that DIT puts so much into it. It is a Dublin based college and it recognises the value of this outreach programme, the access to education, being within the community and the value the community puts on it.

As to why the committee does not know about it, I am looking for a diplomatic answer to that.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

I am looking at and listening to rubbish every day on the television and on the radio. Why do I not know more about it?

Ms Aisling Moran

Yes, the Senator should know more. From our point of view and from the point of view of Sherkin Island a small committee runs it and DIT puts a lot into it. Over the last 18 to 24 months we were in real danger of losing the programme. All of our energy and focus were going into trying to save it and contacting local people. When one is focusing on trying to fight a fire it is hard to try to promote it and tell everybody what we are doing. That becomes secondary because one is worried about whether it will be in place two months hence. That was our reality until May this year. That is why we were invited to speak here. It has been sorted. We are delighted with our funders in the Department and Cork County Council but the future is the issue. It is a community of 90 people and we must find a sustainable method of funding so the members of the community, who got up off their bums and did something positive, do not have to find €60,000 up front to fund it. That is not sustainable for a small community in rural Ireland. We need to have a meeting where everybody can discuss how to do this and whether there is a way of pre-funding it. It is the same thing year in, year out. We are providing the same reports and all the information is available so the issue is how, with our partners and funders, we can come up with a solution to this. Working together is the only way forward.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Ms Moran should look at postgraduate students of communications and consider giving them projects and MAs as a communication force or platform for it. The things the programme has done could be given as a project to the school of communications in Dublin City University, DCU, or the school of communications in Cork. I would love to see it. I am not saying to act like a lady of the night, but it helps. One must share oneself around to get the best for something the group has done primarily alone. It is a wonderful idea. It is so fresh, real and different.

Chairman

There are two minutes left on your questions. You can come back in again.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

This is very important.

Chairman

It is, but a number of people are waiting. There are two minutes left but we will have a chance to return to it because there will be many questions. Does Professor Jordan wish to respond to Senator O'Donnell's questions?

Professor Dervil Jordan

Is the Senator talking about political parties and their arts policies and whether they relate to older people?

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Yes. I referred to Departments as well.

Professor Dervil Jordan

To my knowledge we are not always included. For example, the Arts Council has a participation strand of policy and we are not listed under that but we are funded under it. It has a supporting artists strand of policy whereas the festival supports older artists. We are not listed. It is about being explicit about the need to support the live course. If younger people are picked out we feel that older people should be picked out too in terms of policy support. That leads to the need for stable funding. Every year we must make a separate application to the Arts Council. We are very appreciative of its support but it is annual. We have little stability and little forward planning is possible. It is a 12-month turnaround and we usually do not know what funding we have until January, sometimes December, and it happens in May. It is difficult. The policy and the funding are definitely connected.

Ms Helen O'Donoghue

I wish to acknowledge the HSE funding because that is essential as a partnership for the sustainability of Age and Opportunity Ireland.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

It should get funding from a number of Departments, not just the HSE. That is my point. Is there a place for it to be explicit within Departments that arts play a part in everybody's life and that they might not have the problems of this, that and the other if they looked at the arts in the way the witnesses have described?

Professor Dervil Jordan

My understanding is that one of Creative Ireland's key strategies is to work across Departments and leverage separate finance. In theory, we should be able to leverage funding in different Departments through Creative Ireland, but that has not arisen yet.

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

To answer Senator O'Donnell's question, Ignite has not happened again. However, the Arts Council would say that its invitation to collaborate is a scheme that is beginning to deliver in a similar way. With regard to tourism, I am not as afraid of that as many people in the arts are. In fact, I want a piece of it. It gives great visibility to people with disabilities in terms of the high quality work we can create, as we showed with Cork Ignite. It is said that 28,000 people come to the city of Cork for Culture Night and we got 10,000 of them. That is incredible visibility.

Professor Sarah Glennie

The Mercer institute is a St. James's Hospital project with Trinity College.

I referred to longitudinal research. The key thing about the creative life programme is that it is informed by the Irish longitudinal study on ageing, TILDA. There was an in-depth assessment over a long period of what was needed to support successful ageing. As all other speakers noted, it identified absolutely that engagement with creativity was one of the things that could support successful ageing. Therefore, encouragement to engage with creativity is embedded in their treatment. On the NCAD's involvement, it means that our students learn through actively being involved in the programme in working with patients and organising events in hospitals. Does that answer the Senator's question?

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Yes, it does.

Professor Sarah Glennie

The NCAD would like to be doing many things. Professor Jordan mentioned the HEA funded programme of access to higher education, PATH, which has just started. We always have short-term initiatives such as Ignite; therefore, there is additional funding for a moment and then it is gone. For us, there is ongoing work on access and being able to encourage a broader base into the stream of arts education because that is from where our art makers will come. That is one of the fundamental aspects in breaking down the socio-economic barriers to people seeing themselves as having the right to participate or be part of the creative community, as Professor Jordan discussed. Changing that stream of people coming into arts education is one way by which we can address the issue. The access programme is critical in that regard. It is something about which we are thinking generally in the NCAD. The idea of what an artist can be is really changing, as we have seen in all of the presentations. I referred to the need to challenge young artists to think about what it now means to be an artist or designer or whatever categories into which we put people in terms of the boundaries we put around them. An artist is not just a person sitting in a studio producing objects that disappear into a commercial system and are bought. There is so much more potential in how their creativity can play a role in society. That depth of vision is what we, as an art and design institute, identify as something we will need to embed in future makers because that is where the opportunities will be.

Chairman

I call Deputy Seán Canney.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

If the Chairman will indulge me, I have a question for McAuley Place.

Chairman

The Senator has already had 40% extra time.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

But it will be worth it.

Chairman

I hope so.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Will McAuley Place mention a few more things, please?

Mr. Brian Rowntree

I invite members of the committee or anyone else to please visit as seeing is believing. We can all be creative, innovative, appreciate and mainstream. It is important that the arts not be seen as a survival course; they must be seen as something that is endorsed and a business that represents those who are investing their skills and time in an enterprise. What we have to do is help the arts and others around them to mould into a fabric that society appreciates and understands is required and that it also sees as sustainable. One cannot develop the arts until one develops the framework and foundations on which they are set, as otherwise they are doomed to fail. As I said, there is a need for a combined platform of policy, strategy and resources. The resources can be brought to the table by the arts, but they must also be underpinned by social and investment capital from the State.

Ms Margharita Solon

I know níl a lán ama againn ach gach lá tá rudaí iontacha ag tarlú i McAuley Place. For example, we host the Past Times Community Choir which operates under the guidance of a choir leader. People come from local nursing homes, carers come from the local community, individuals who are socially isolated also come, as do other members of the local community who want to be part of the choir. They all come to McAuley Place and the buzz in the place is amazing. When one comes, there is an art exhibition that changes every two weeks to encourage and support local artists. That means that if I live in McAuley Place and I am unable to get out, or if I come into the tea room, I see all of this amazing art around the place. Ann McKenna, an artist from Kildare, is now exhibiting. Her work is amazing. She does fantastic work based on Irish mythology. Some weeks ago we had the Vanishing Ireland exhibition which was unbelievable. We have hosted all sorts of musician. Christy Moore had a private concert for all of the residents, staff and volunteers which was so hush hush that they were all sitting down in the arts and culture centre and did not know who was coming; they just knew that it was a VIP. Then the door opened and they realised it was Christy Moore who was unbelievable. He ended up in the kitchen with the staff and volunteers with his mug of tea.

Mr. Brian Rowntree

He was making the tea.

Ms Margharita Solon

In McAuley Place one is connected to the arts and culture, but one never knows what will happen next. If one is in the tea room, one can smell the home baking and see the people in their tutus going to ballet class. It is intergenerational, artistic and creative. It could be the yoga group or the tai chi class that is coming into the tea room. There is a cross-section which is intersecting all of the time as they come and go. One of the residents is organising a concert on Friday night and bringing in two jazz musicians, as a fundraiser for McAuley Place. One always expects the unexpected.

Deputy Seán Canney

I thank Deputy Michael Collins for letting me in as I must attend another meeting.

In joint committees we call in people such as our visitors, but today I am a witness to what they are doing and the roles have been reversed. I have been very much taken by everyone's contribution, the energy shown and the unique approaches. I feel inadequate as a public representative that I do not see and hear more about them. Even if the committee does not do so, I will definitely visit McAuley Place and Sherkin Island and Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell will come with me. I have no questions for the delegates, but I have many for the committee and politicians. I think Dr. Byrne has referred to how the delegates do not know until January what they will do every year; for example, there could be a project in May. Funding and policies are issues, but the question of timing is also to the fore. I come across many groups that work on an ad hoc basis and do not know until funding is announced that they will be in business in a particular year. That is a failing on the part of our structures within government, no matter who is in office. We need to address it to give those such as the delegates a better sense of permanence by setting out a five-year funding plan for each organisation.

I congratulate everyone and thank them for coming. The delegates should not thank us, rather we should thank them.

Deputy Michael Collins

I thank the Chairman, the clerk and everyone else involved for facilitating all of the groups in coming here to educate us. Sometimes we live in a bubble and do not know what is happening in the real world. It is the real world that brings most of us here. The evidence given by so many of the groups has been an education for me and all of us. The McAuley Centre is a place I would really like to visit. I am involved in a lot of rural community groups. We have gone a small way towards where the McAuley Centre is, but we could learn a lot more and we would like to do so. I second what Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell said about the committee paying a visit to the McAuley Centre, Sherkin Island and Skibbereen. We might also attend the Bealtaine Festival while we are at it.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

If we are all still here next May.

Deputy Michael Collins

The Bealtaine Festival is very specific, but the arts are so important for people with a disability. Having never understood what they were, I have seen so many people in local community hospitals become involved in the arts. They find so much joy in places such as Schull, Skibbereen, Bantry Hospital, Bandon, Kinsale and Dunmanway. I have seen them in community hospitals and nursing homes and it means so much to the patients. We have travelled that road and by now community hospitals are places we would all like to be inside.

I am not being too parochial about things with regard to Sherkin Island but I am delighted that Ms Aisling Moran and Ms Majella O'Neill Collins are here today to give evidence. They were supposed to appear before the committee four or five months ago but the snow struck. That might have been a stroke of luck because it may have allowed a bit more time for the issues that were outstanding and a cause of major concern to get sorted. I recall that Aisling rang me at 7 o'clock that morning to ask if this committee meeting was going ahead. I said "Absolutely" but then I pulled back the curtains in my apartment in Rathmines and said "It is not; it is off, end of story." Aisling said that Tom might not agree with me. I said that I did not care what Tom said that the meeting was off. I said "Forget it. I will not be going outside my own door, let alone have you coming up from Sherkin Island."

To be honest, islands are suffering and haemorrhaging in many respects. Islands are fighting an uphill battle. There are eight islands in my constituency and I meet with islanders. I go to the islands and I hear the issues but we are fighting the battle. Sherkin Island lost its school a few years ago, which was a major blow to the island. This degree course is a lifeline not only for the island but has a major financial benefit for other businesses in places such as Baltimore, Skibbereen, Union Hall, Glandore and Leap. These places will all benefit because of the people who come to Sherkin Island for this visual art degree. I commend the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht for funding this course. I also commend the local authority, the commitment of the Dublin Institute of Technology and the work done by the Sherkin Island development society over the past few years to continue this. It went through a major difficulty at the beginning of the year but the stakeholders stuck with the task and remained focused, and thankfully the funding eventually became available to continue the course.

One Saturday approximately a month ago I went to the island for the graduation. The local council chief executive officer, Mr. Tim Lucey, was there along with another local representatives and local people. We were stunned at the large number of people flocking to the island that day. It probably happens on other days too, but on that particular day the people were coming to see the event. It clearly stunned me and others to see the benefits - not that I had any doubts about it - and I am glad the situation was resolved and is moving forward. There is now a focus and they know where they stand for the next number of years.

The islands are facing a tough time and this initiative is unique. I fought very strongly to make sure it stayed as it was. There are negatives and positives. When the school closed on Sherkin Island, the children of the island needed to get a ferry to school. Perhaps some people do not call it a chaperone, but the parents are fighting very hard to get a chaperone to take the children on the ferry because parents are trying to work. These are some of the big disadvantages. The particular service is not in place at the moment as we are waiting for the Department to see if it can be put in place. Bere Island had a public health nurse who was there full time but who has now been brought back to the mainland. Every time it involves a fight to keep a service.

I was on Sherkin Island recently doing a clinic. There was no phone line for six months because of Storm Ophelia and no agency cared. If the islanders do not fight and shout, very few others will.

There are also positives about the eight islands I represent. On Long Island, off Schull, which I visited recently, a couple from the UK has just opened a bed and breakfast. Collins is their name but they are no relation. There is talk about building a community centre on Whiddy Island. We are aware of the amount of work done by Tim O'Leary with the Bank House. Dursey Island has its new cable car. Cape Clear Island and Bere Island are all fighting for services. John Walsh does great work on Bere Island. This art degree course is a great story for Sherkin Island and it has secured the future going forward. Everybody needs to be commended in this regard, and for making sure the funding is kept in place.

I appreciate the opportunity to say all of this. When it looked like the course was doomed, we were going to afford the stakeholders the opportunity to give evidence to the committee and to let the nation know the benefit of the course not just to Sherkin Island, but to the whole State. However, as I said, the snow intervened and this may have allowed a little extra space and breathing time for this matter to be resolved. Thankfully, it has been resolved and I am delighted all the witnesses are here today. I second Senator O'Donnell's proposal that the committee members visit the islands. It would be great to educate ourselves and to see what is going on, although we may or may not get to all the islands. I would be quite happy to do that.

Chairman

Go raibh maith agat. Fair play. Would anyone like to respond to any of those points?

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

Specifically, it is worth noting Deputy Seán Canney's point about the yearly funding cycle. In 2017 the Arts Council introduced a new strategic funding scheme. Arts and Disability Ireland was lucky enough to be one of eight organisations selected for that multi-annual funding. This means that we got our funding, like everybody else, in December 2017, for January-December 2018. From September 2018, however, we will know what our funding is for 2019. While it is a modest step forward, and the number of organisations involved is small - it is just eight of all the client organisations - it is something this committee can explore a bit more with the Arts Council and perhaps encourage it to roll the model out to more organisations in the future.

Ms Aisling Moran

I thank the Senators and the Deputy for their kind words. We are all interlinked and there is huge commonality between all of us. Policy was one of the issues referred to. When we consider this policy, our island imports third level education but we cannot educate our youth. We are inter-generational, but on the flip side in five years' time, we will lose all our children because one cannot get a primary level education on Sherkin Island. One can, however, get a third level degree. It makes no sense and the policy works against us. The policy exists for the mainland. The Senator asked how come the committee did not know about Sherkin Island. I am letting the committee know about the other issue we have, and which people need to know about.

The representatives from the National College of Art and Design spoke of progression. Our students' progression shows how they go on to master's degrees and PhDs, and we have all the figures on this from the BA in visual art course. They also go on to work in places such as McAuley Place centre, they contribute to the Bealtaine festival and they work with people who have a disability and there are people on the programme with a disability. We are all holding hands on this, and we all need to be recognised together. To have the opportunity to appear before the committee today is massive, especially for us, although I am sure for everyone else as they have said. We thank the committee for that opportunity.

A question was asked about the standards. The standard of art coming out of the degree course on Sherkin Island is phenomenal. Ms O'Neill Collins will speak to the committee about this aspect as it is her area of expertise. I am in the background all the time.

Ms Majella O'Neill Collins

It is. We have 64 students who have gone through over the last 15 years. None of those students has just left and put their tools away. They are practising artists, they do PhDs, they travel abroad and they are involved in arts and health. There is a plethora of things they are involved in. The West Cork Arts Centre in Skibbereen helps to give them jobs and everything feeds into everything else, but the most important thing is the community's involvement. There is ownership there. If a community feels the respect when people come in, that the community is part of it also, then the world is the artist's oyster at that point. We have an 86 year old graduate. When she embarked on the course everyone thought she was definitely going to go down a very safe route artistically. This student, however, became very involved in video. She came to the course painting and drawing, but she actually learned technology and has just opened an exhibition. The students who have gone on keep coming back.

I was so proud on the day that Dr. Michael Birchall from the Tate Modern came over from Liverpool. I thought that we had arrived because people outside of Ireland were now looking at us. Yet, we use all our energy to basically keep the lights on because the funding does not come. Somewhere along the line some members of the committee will have to come and see us. They should do so at the end of May when the degree students put on an exhibition in the abbey. The abbey is not open during the year but it opens for those two days.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

The reason I asked Ms O'Neill Collins about quality was to give her an opportunity to comment on it. I was not questioning it.

Ms Majella O'Neill Collins

On quality, some students have gone on to complete doctorates. Dublin Institute of Technology sends its best lecturers down and there is a constant flow of new people arriving.

Chairman

I will ask a few questions. I have visited Sherkin Island and know it well. It is a beautiful island. There is no better experience than being on an island. People constantly speak of the need for connectivity but sometimes we also need to disconnect and there is no better place to achieve disconnection than on an island. Members have asked many of the questions I intended asking. One of the points underlined, however, was that we do not need to locate all third level education in Dublin or the other big cities. Thousands of people are moving from counties around the country into the big towns and cities where they are encountering serious problems such as the accommodation crisis. Something like an outreach campus in different parts of the country could allow students to remain in their locality and facilitate the cross-pollination of their ideas. These could eventually develop for the counties in question, rather than having everything located into Dublin.

On the arts and older people, somewhere along the line we have inverted our value system in regard to older people. We talk about being a more inclusive society but in many ways we fracture people from general society. One of the points made, and it is a line I like, was that we are one community. That is an important part of policy development in that the more integrated we are, the stronger and better we will be at all levels. What has been the reception among older people for the services and the arts the organisations are delivering?

Mr. Naughton's point about a woman who read a book by Shakespeare but only consumed the play 17 years later was amazing. It was not something that I had thought about previously. Mr. Naughton also referred to large drop in the number of audio described performances. Perhaps he could talk us through why that has happened and what steps are needed to reverse this decline.

I have one question for all of the witnesses. The stable funding model is key because all those with whom I work who receive State funding find that continually chasing this funding exhausts a good chunk of their resources. The Government and Departments hate multi-annual funding because budgets change and the idea of committing to the future presents a challenge for them. What is the best way to address this issue with the Departments?

My final question is one that people do not like to discuss in these types of forums. The Departments that fund the work of the witnesses' organisations measure them in certain ways. In what ways are they measuring outputs and in what ways should they measure them? I ask the witnesses to deal with those questions.

Ms Margharita Solon

I will comment first and Mr. Rowntree will follow me. When we were trying to build McAuley Place originally, it took us three years to get our first planning permission. When we finally went to the relevant Department for funding, we were told that we would not get it. Our understanding was always that we would get funding once we secured planning permission. It was at that stage that we were told we were evaluated in respect of bricks and mortar. If we had gone for a greenfield site on the periphery of the town, a new building would have cost less than working in the heart of the town on a listed building. We said this was surely about more than bricks and mortar. It was about brownfield development, bringing new life into an area of the town that had not been working very well, engaging the whole community, keeping people out of nursing homes and promoting the arts as a tool for well-being. We were told, however, that we could only be evaluated in respect of bricks and mortar. The process is skewed.

It costs €25 an hour for one hour of care for an older person. We provide community-based care for older people and enabling people to remain independent in their own homes. I refer to one hour of care. There are 168 hours in a week. McAuley Place should be evaluated on what it is doing to keep older people in their own homes but engaged and connected, including intergenerationally.

I will make one more point, after which Mr. Rowntree may wish to comment. The Chairman asked about the reaction of older people to the arts. I will give a fantastic example of an older couple where the wife was instrumental in setting up adult education in Naas. As they had no children, they did not have grandchildren and were not connected with younger people. They were participating in an arts project and the gentleman was the carer for his wife. She was thrilled to see him engaged intergenerationally with all these people but he was also thrilled to see her engaged with them. The participants broke up into groups and worked with the arts facilitator. We will call this gentleman Jim, which is not his real name. He came over to me that evening and said, "You are never going to believe this but Jane came over to me and asked if I would be her partner in this project." He did not know why a primary school child would want to be connected to him. He could not believe it but the child did not see the age or connectivity or anything else. Jim's wife died and although they did not have children or grandchildren, he is still connected with the wider community. He comes to the tai chi classes in McAuley Place and has lunch in the tea rooms. I could speak of such cases for the rest of the evening.

Chairman

I find that brilliant and fascinating but there must be many other older people who do not participate in anything. I know some myself. How do we reach out to them?

Ms Margharita Solon

If it is around and surrounding a person, even if a person does not participate, he or she has a choice to be there. My mother is 96 years old and she said that one of the things that kills her the most is that she has no new stories to tell. If she is watching, if she is going out and seeing things - even if she does not participate - there is a stimulus and the brain synapses are firing because something new is being seen and eventually we get little Jane coming over and asking for help. It is osmosis and a person just becomes part of it eventually, if it is there, as opposed to having to go and sign up to be in it. If it is all around a person, it percolates up and he or she becomes part of it.

Mr. Brian Rowntree

In response to the Chair's question, we all have a duty of care. There are many activities that we do not promote effectively. We do not offer the invitation effectively to people to participate and we do not seek the audience. We expect the audience and we have to be smarter about seeking it. If someone goes to those people, knocks on their door, makes contact and asks if they would like to participate, I guarantee that most of them will say "Yes". That is because someone has taken the time to visit them. They will come then. There is life and there has to be life beyond city boundaries. If we do not have that, we will kill rural Ireland. It is that simple.

We have a demographic timebomb and it is ticking. We have to consider how to address the impact of that timebomb in respect of urban versus rural. If we concentrate all our services and activities in urban areas, the impact will be more isolation in rural communities. Communities will not die, not people, because let us face it, when we talk about communities dying, we also mean people will die. We have to prevent that. We have to make interventions which are structured and the arts are critical to that success.

The Chair also asked about indicators of success. We have to move away from expenditure driven indicators to performance and outcome driven indicators. The Government has to be smarter about the questions it asks in respect of what is brought to the table. Turning to the big process, all the organisations here, and others, have to be given the opportunity in the bidding process to state what outcomes they will deliver in return for the expenditure they seek. They must then be held to account for those outcomes. That is a smarter way to do business. If we are to drive the arts into a business environment, then we have to encourage arts organisations to think of themselves as businesses. We have to let them tell us their story and measure them against the outcomes that business would expect to be held against. This is not about allocating funds and just seeking an expenditure trail. We have to go way beyond that. If we have these focused outcomes, the Government, in its summary report, will have a great news story to tell the public.

Dr. Tara Byrne

I will respond to the question on participation, the need and demand for participation, measurement and how we reach people. These issues were raised in one of the other questions. Bealtaine was founded in 1995 and has grown in each of the 23 years since. It depends on the participation of more than 100,000 people living in every county in Ireland, so it is self-evident in one way. That is not said complacently but the organisation would not exist 23 years after it was founded if there was no demand. As I alluded to earlier, we carry out a survey every year.

We are required to do so, but we also want to know what people think of what we do. The results are completely overwhelming in the sense that people say things that are very personal to us. For example, they have said, "This has helped me find a sense of self," "I need more activities like this," "I came with my carer" or "I came with my son or daughter," and "it helps us to connect to go to things together." There is a strong demand for this, but, as I said, it has been around for 23 years and depends on the participation of more than 100,000 people every year.

On the issue of trying to reach people, we are in partnership with other organisations. We are in partnership with the National College of Art and Design, NCAD, in the creative life programme in Mercer's Hospital that Professor Glennie mentioned. We reach people in medical settings, but we approach them in a non-medical way, as described by Ms Solon. We are in partnership with Arts and Disability Ireland in trying to create greater access for older people in general to the events we run. We are working through that network. We are in partnership with the Irish Museum of Modern Art which Ms O'Donoghue represents, as well as Age and Opportunity Ireland. That is a smattering of the hundreds of organisations with which we partner.

A key initiative is a residency programme we run in a care home setting. It has been very important. We definitely need more support for the programme. Very often care home settings are not like McAuley Place which is the standard bearer for a creative care home setting. There are many absolutely miserable care home settings. The programme is competitive. Each time we have run it - twice - there has been great upset when care homes did not win. Sometimes mass is considered to be an activity in a care home setting, as is bingo. Members can take their pick. When an artist goes into such a setting to work for two or three months, it changes completely not only the residents but also their families who see a noted change in them. The staff working in the organisations learn the importance of creativity.

On the question of measurement, as we live in a neoliberal world, in general, measurement has become quantitative. We understand the need to judge things in terms of figures. That is one way of measuring things, but it is a very poor way to measure the arts and life in general. We would all say the impact of the arts and culture is long term. Therefore, we need a long-term measurement. The change will not happen in one day or one year. Arts and culture have a long-term impact, which is the reason it is very rich over time which changes lives. There are long-term studies and national surveys in Ireland. We all hope the arts are tied into all of the national surveys. In that context, the qualitative measurement is equally as important as the quantitative measurement. None of us has a problem with keeping figures, even though we have a very low capacity to do so. Capacity is needed to keep figures. People need to monitor them, but it is the qualitative internal change that really matters.

Mr. Pádraig Naughton

To answer that question and picking up from where Dr. Byrne finished, for the first time this year Arts and Disability Ireland worked with Bealtaine. One of the reasons we were interested in doing so was that the majority of people with a disability acquired it. That is particularly true of older people. We have found anecdotally - this is something we started to test and explore with Bealtaine - that the way to encourage people who acquire disabilities, older people in particular who need audio description and captioning, or the loop system, is to get them to say they need these systems or to make use of them. That is part of the reason behind the work we are doing with Bealtaine.

To answer the question on the drop in the use of audio description and captioning as it relates to the theatre from 2014 through to 2017, there are a number of reasons for it. One is that the model we were using with the Arts Council to deliver audio description and captioning nationally was its touring and dissemination at work scheme. It was funding theatre, performance and visual arts companies to tour nationally. The number of tours has got smaller in recent years. They are visiting fewer venues and the tours are shorter. That has meant fewer opportunities to provide audio description and captioning. When we started to provide audio description and captioning on national tours, the first production, pre the touring and dissemination at work scheme, was Fishamble's "The Pride of Parnell Street" in 2011 when we visited eight venues. It is now untypical for a tour to be that long or for us to get the opportunity to work on a tour that long. We are in discussions with the Arts Council to change the model, whereby we would work with specific venues. That was one of the reasons I mentioned the report of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities. There are still recommendations that could, if properly activated, make a big difference. If we were to move to a venue-based approach, we could take a longer term view and support a number of shows each year at specific venues throughout the country to develop them as hubs and an audience for access.

The issue of resources is a concern which I have heard the operators of venues discuss regularly. I am heading to Belfast to attend the Theatre Forum conference. Those who are members of Theatre Forum have spoken about this issue extensively. They are feeling squeezed. The Arts Council, local authorities and others want to support the arts groups that come into venues, but they do not necessarily want to support their running costs. The truth is that in the short to medium term access will cost them a good deal of money, more than what they have. There will, therefore, be a need for more investment.

Professor Sarah Glennie

On the question of evaluation, until last Novemeber I was the director of the Irish Museum of Modern Art. I am now the director of the NCAD; therefore, I have worked between two departments. Since taking over as director of the NCAD, having regard to the relationship with the Higher Education Authority and the Department of Education and Skills, what is expected of us is much clearer. There is a very clear policy framework under which we operate. There is also a very developed conversation about what our role is in that policy framework. It may not be a policy with which we always agree, but there is a very clear set of objectives. As the director of a national cultural institution, there was no real evaluation because there is still an absolute absence of policy at national level on what is expected from the arts sector. The conversation about evaluation did not happen.

I also say, more generally, in terms of a conversation about participation, that it is very important to think about how it can be supported. To echo a little of what Dr. Byrne said, it has to be seen in a broader, more holistic sense than just numbers. What is often left out in these conversations is consideration of supports for those who are making the culture in which we want people to participate. Recently much emphasis has been placed on support of participation in enabling audiences which is incredibly important, but it must be balanced by support for the makers. Speaking for an education institute that is making the future makers, we want them to be able to come to a country where our artists can sustain a viable practice and stay here. Many artists leave because currently it is a very difficult place in which to maintain a professional practice. We are in jeopardy of losing generations of artists. We have all heard about the value of the work all of our artists across all sectors contribute to society. That is very much lost in much of the discussion on arts funding and the thinking about the arts in Ireland.

Professor Dervil Jordan

I reiterate that the linkage between the Department of Education and Skills and the Department with responsibility for the arts is crucial in pulling together all of the strands we are discussing.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Does Professor Jordan think it is evident?

Professor Dervil Jordan

It is evident in the arts in education charter. The work being done is interesting and some of it is becoming more and more interesting, but there is an awful lot more to be done.

Professor Sarah Glennie

There is a clear understanding of the value of arts within the Department of Education and Skills, as has been articulated to the NCAD.

Chairman

I appreciate those comments.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I was supposed to leave much earlier, but this has been one of the best committee meetings I have attended. Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell and I skipped some votes in the Seanad, but we were paired.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

We were paired in order that our absence from the Seanad would not affect the outcome of the votes.

Senator Fintan Warfield

We would have been on opposite sides.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

I would never have voted with the Senator.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I thank the delegates for their contributions which have been great. A couple of my friends recently attended a festival on Inis Oírr. Is it apparent to Ms Moran or Ms O'Neill that conversations are taking place locally, nationally and internationally between agencies and educational institutions on the arts on the islands? Have they connected with arts initiatives on other islands such as the festival on Inis Oírr? What is their view of the arts on the islands?

My boyfrend raved about the NCAD degree show and I heard great things about it elsewhere. I thank Professor Glennie and Professor Jordan for the facilitation of the powerful performance of "Not At Home on St. James's Street". The NCAD is located in one of my favourite parts of the city. I travel that way on the bus to Inchicore. It is a changing area and the NCAD's sense of place is obviously strong. What are the delegates' views on the development of the area? There seems to be much gentrification.

As regards the NCAD's outreach programme, Dominic's Community Centre in Tallaght was part of the programme while I was mayor of South Dublin County Council. What can Professor Glennie tell me about the current position in terms of the arts in prisons? I know that the NCAD is no longer involved, but has the space been left vacant or has the role been filled?

On the Bealtaine Festival, creativity begins in communities, at home and at school and such festivals provide a great platform for emerging artists. One of my first gigs was at the Harold's Cross community festival. Is Ms Byrne of the opinion that people are a loyal audience? She mentioned that she kept in touch with people, formed a network and built audiences.

Ms Johnston of Arts and Disability Ireland may have wished to make a contribution during the opening statements. She may wish to use her time in response to me to make her points.

I thank the representatives of McAuley Place for their attendance. We have heard that care homes can be a miserable environment. I have carried out some research into the subject. The first openly LGBT generation of older people may be considering entering nursing homes. Some may have the fear of God in going back into an institution. I am sure there are many creative people in McAuley House which is a great example of looking forward to that stage of life. On intergenerational interaction, I attend a music session every week with my 70 year old neighbour and it is one of my favourite parts of the week.

I thank all of the delegates. I hope I have not asked too many questions.

Chairman

Does any of the delegates wish to respond to Senator Fintan Warfield's questions?

Professor Dervil Jordan

I did not catch part of his question on prisons.

Senator Fintan Warfield

The NCAD was previously involved in the arts in prisons.

Professor Dervil Jordan

It was.

Senator Fintan Warfield

Has that role been filled by another artistic group?

Professor Dervil Jordan

We have placements in prisons for those involved in our socially engaged art practice. Some of the students accept placements in prisons, as do some of our teachers. However, the model of the arts in prisons which lasted for 20 years and which was headed by Mr. Brian Maguire has not been replaced.

Dr. Tara Byrne

The Arts Council funds a visual artists in prison scheme to which artists can apply.

Ms Helen O'Donoghue

There is a very strong cohort involved in art education in the prison service, with real experience that probably dates back to the 1970s. When we recently hosted the Brian Maguire Aleppo paintings, the prison service arts education team organised a continuous professional development day at the Irish Museum of Modern Art. One of its teachers, Mr. Tom Short, an artist from Limerick, has been appointed as its co-ordinator of continuous professional development.

Professor Sarah Glennie

With reference to Dublin 8 and how we see ourselves, it is something to which we give much thought and interesting in the context of today's discussion. Our neighbours, St. James's Hospital and the Digital Hub, are centres of new thinking and innovation, of which we see ourselves as part. A very strong identity is coming from the area in terms of it being a place where the future will be imagined, whether by artists, the research being carried out in St. James's Hospital or the work being done in the Digital Hub. As Senator Fintan Warfield stated, there is a very strong history and sense of community in the area and it is very important that it be retained. The potential of creative practice is relevant in that regard. Several of our projects have worked with groups. We encourage students to work directly with community groups such as Bridgefoot Community Gardens or the big ongoing European funded project which is looking at the space of the artist in a local community. A local parade was one of the events to emerge from the latter project. In such environments creative practice is one of the tools with which people understand the sense of place. The critical engagement with space is very often enabled by engagement with creative practice, to which we remain very committed. Dublin 8 is emerging as a very exciting area.

Ms Helen O'Donoghue

The programme with older people at the Irish Museum of Modern Art devised in 1991 was evaluated at the time by the youth and community department in NUI Maynooth which identified social cohesion and the sense of connectively in older people engaging with the arts. On the changing stages and evolving phases in the area, it is very important not to forget the demographic represented in the Dublin 8 area, particularly in social housing. There are many questions about the development of the area. Culture lies at the heart of many of the community development movements from parish level to community activism. The NCAD and the IMMA have worked for years to that end and I would like to see that work recognised, developed and supported.

Dr. Tara Byrne

On whether audiences are loyal, Ms O'Donoghue and I both say it is a resounding "Yes". However, we want to become a year-round development agency such that we will not just be associated with the festival that takes place in May. We are seeking support in that regard. Some people tell us that our festival matters but ask why we only have it in May. We would retain it as the flowering of everything that happens throughout the year, but we want to have ongoing activity. We started it in a small way though our residency schemes in nursing homes, which are expensive but have longitudinal benefits. I mentioned cultural companions, a kind of cultural buddy network for older people. It is a key audience development initiative of ours which we are expanding. It was originally offered in approximately five counties, but we did not have enough funding for it to continue. It is now very successful in Dublin, but we are trying to roll it out again elsewhere. It is developing in counties Wexford and Clare. However, it is needed nationwide because it addresses social isolation, as well as issues of common interest.

Ms Leah Johnston

I thank Senator Fintan Warfield for the invitation to contribute. On a point raised by Mr. Naughton about a survey we carried out, it is about attendance, as well as participation. Our research indicates that persons with disabilities want to do the same as everybody else.

It is about taking down the barriers to attendance. When we surveyed them, 94% of people with disabilities said they had cut back on at least one of their social activities in the previous five years. The key barriers to going out were cost, no one to go out with and transport, of which access is part. I include access services such as audio description and captioning and sign language interpretation.

Mr. Brian Rowntree

We again thank Senator Fintan Warfield. We are very appreciative of his comments. I reassure him that McAuley Place is very welcoming for everyone and will continue to be so. We hope to build on this.

We would love to see more benchmarking data across the platform. We would like to see data available in order that we could compare ourselves not just in Ireland but also in other regions and see how we bring it to the table. I also believe we have to measure not just success but also look at restrictions. We have to look at the impacters that impact on success. That would inform policy development which would then inform the strategies which would, in turn, inform the bidding process and the outcome and measurement provisions. The critical aspect is how we look at the arts in their collective and plural fashion and across many platforms.

We do have an issue where in many deprived communities education is one thing that impacts on continuing deprivation. So many people who are educated leave those communities. We have to continue to develop role models within them in order that we can sustain lifelong learning in them. There is no point in having a goal of creating an educational intervention if it is not retained and sustained within communities. The arts are part of that framework of success which is critical to the success of the regeneration and continued development of communities.

Chairman

Míle buíochas as sin. Molaim go hard an obair atá idir lámha ag McAuley Place. Tá sé dochreidte. Bhaineamar an-taitneamh as gach rud a bhí le rá acu inniu. We are really thankful for the work the delegates are doing and ask them to keep up the good work. We are also really thankful that they have come and explained exactly the work that they do. We look forward to working with them again. I thank them for coming. We appreciate it.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Before we finish, could we be definite about our visits?

Chairman

We will discuss that matter in private session.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Can we reassure the delegates that we will visit?

Chairman

I see no reason not to visit, but we should first have our discussion and get agreement in private session. I am also in favour of visiting.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Yes. I will talk to the Chairman about something else in private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.45 p.m. and adjourned at 3.55 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 4 July 2018.