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Joint Committee on Disability Matters díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Feb 2022

Aligning Education with the UNCRPD: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Senator Alice-Mary Higgins. The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss aligning education with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. On behalf of the committee, I would like to welcome Ms Mary Finn, Ms Claire Hayes, Ms Marian Hennessy, Mr. Craig Kelly, Ms Rita Walsh, Ms Gráinne Gorey and Dr. Fidelma Brady to the meeting. They are extremely welcome and we look forward to the discussion.

I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in the meeting when physically present within the Leinster House complex. In this regard, if there are members joining us remotely they must confirm they are on the grounds of Leinster House before they can make a contribution.

Before we commence formal proceedings, I must begin with some formalities and advise our witnesses of some matters. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entities by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I must advise the witnesses giving evidence from outside of the parliamentary precinct that the constitutional protection afforded to witnesses attending to give evidence before committees may not extend to them. No clear guidance can be given on whether or the extent to which privilege is covered. Persons giving evidence from other jurisdictions should be mindful of the statutory regime and if you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter you should respect that. Members should be reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice as well.

Ms Claire Hayes from the Open Doors initiative can make her opening statement.

Ms Claire Hayes

I think the Chair, Vice Chairman and committee for the invitation to speak on aligning education with the UNCRPD. In the interests of inclusion and accessibility, I will give a visual description of myself. I am a white woman with short blond hair. I am wearing glasses, a red jumper and a white shirt today and I am sitting in front of a green virtual background. I am the co-ordinator of towards work, a person-focused initiative that works to support any person with a disability on his or her journey towards employment, self-employment and further education. We are part of the Open Doors initiative, a not-for-profit that supports marginalised members of our society by working to create equitable opportunities in employment and education.

The Open Doors initiative is a collective of more than 100 organisations, companies and NGOs that work with Government Departments to create pathways to education and employment for marginalised people. Since Open Doors began in 2019, we have helped in excess of 16,800 people with a 600% increase in 2020 despite Covid. We work alongside employers and educators to ensure we are creating inclusive employment opportunities and equitable education environments. People we help onto pathways to work and education are there on merit. They have the skills and capabilities to do the work and actively take part in academic life. They are, however, experiencing barriers that their non-disabled peers are not facing. The UNCRPD makes it clear that there is a right to an inclusive education system at all levels.

The need for change that will hugely impact people with disabilities in education and employment is highlighted regularly and often. In Ireland, one in seven people is living with a disability. Some 70% of people with a disability aged between 20 and 64 acquired their disability after the age of 16. It is likely that many of us will acquire a disability at some point in our working lives. Disability is a part of life. However, the barriers facing the disabled community should not be. We must stop placing the onus of resolution on the shoulders of those with a disability and start considering how our structures, systems and procedures are disabling our young people, colleagues and peers.

Of people with a disability who are aged between 15 and 50, 13.7% had not progressed any higher than primary level education. This is in comparison with 4.2% of the general population. People with a disability are less likely to complete third-level education, with 37% educated to this level compared with 53.4% of the general population aged between 15 and 50.

Research shows that people with disabilities have far fewer employment opportunities when compared to their non-disabled peers. In Ireland, a person is half as likely to be in employment if he or she has a disability in comparison to a non-disabled peer. This need for change is why the Open Doors initiative and its projects, Towards Work and Employers for Change, exist. We are here to create pathways to education and employment for marginalised people, while educating and empowering educators and employers. Open Doors launched the Towards Work project last September. It was launched by the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, Deputy Rabbitte, and is supported by the Dormant Accounts Fund and Pobal.

Since our launch, we have engaged with more than 300 participants at different stages of their journey toward employment and further education. This has been in the context of online training sessions and providing individual support as well as our bespoke mentorship programme. The mentorship programme offers individuals a unique opportunity to meet with a mentor who has the skill set to support them on their journey towards further education and employment. As part of this, the participant has the opportunity to set his or her goals and seek advice and support from a trained mentor whether that be for work or education.

We were delighted to be able to support Technological University, TU, Dublin deliver a bespoke module on self-employment for people with a disability. This was the first of its kind and was led by Professor Thomas Cooney. A total of 20 students took part in this course and were brought through the process of developing their business plan. Each student was matched with a mentor from the local enterprise office, LEO. From this course, we anticipate that six students will go on to start their own business. Self-employment is rarely explored as an option for those with a disability.

We have seen how a lack of access to education creates barriers for people with disabilities. This module on self-employment facilitated by TU Dublin created an opportunity for people to access further education and explore the area of entrepreneurship. This is an example of how removing barriers to further education can open up and create pathways for people with disabilities. When we discuss employment in the disabled community, we rarely view the employer as being the party with a disability. Education is a vital tool in changing this.

Further education should open doors for all; it should not create more barriers. Our experience and feedback from participants has shown that a lack of access to information on supports and grants can create barriers. When we take a one-size-fits-all approach to our supports, we inadvertently exclude many. More thought also needs to be put into the accessibility of education environments, including transport, remote study offerings, access to clubs and societies, lecture theatres, libraries and other venues. Where we lack accessibility, we cannot promote real inclusion.

Finally, we must acknowledge and consider the intersectionality between marginalised groups. We have one example of a young migrant we helped who has a disability and who was experiencing homelessness. We assisted this person with education and welfare grants through a huge effort. The rules and regulations created by a well-meaning system can sometimes mean that these students slip through the cracks and do not continue in further education or are no longer supported on their journey.

A fear of losing welfare supports and income holds many potential students back. In this instance, we have seen individuals lose welfare supports due to choosing full-time education. Being forced to choose between welfare support and further education places puts individuals at risk of poverty. The Open Doors initiative is focused on supporting these individuals through our projects such as Towards Work, which acts as a resource that can signpost those who need it to the necessary supports and grants to help continue their education.

I thank Ms Hayes very much for her opening remarks. I call Ms Finn from Connect4Work.

Ms Mary Finn

It is a pleasure to be here. I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to have an input to this committee meeting. I work in the area of vocational rehabilitation with a particular focus on the workplace and employee retention. I would like to take this opportunity to draw attention to the connection between our present-day students, their education and the workforce of the future.

Since the arrival of Covid-19, all of us, as a global community, have a deeper appreciation for easy and unlimited access to products and services in the pursuit of living our lives in whatever manner we would like to. We have learned the value of easy access by living through the various restrictions of the past two years. Yet for many people with disabilities, restrictions in how they live their lives is part of their daily lives. As we near the two-year anniversary of Covid restrictions, discussions such as today's are timely. The purpose of the UNCRPD is to promote, protect and ensure the full and equal enjoyment of all human rights and fundamental freedoms by all persons with disabilities.

The Irish education system, through legislation such the Education Act 1998, Education (Welfare) Act 2000 and Education for Persons with Special Education Needs Act 2004, promotes both access and participation in education by confirming the constitutional right of children to education. Second-level students are currently preparing for mock examinations and filling in their CAO forms. They are trying to figure out what they will do after school and what life will hold for them. How will the education system serve them to ensure a future where everybody is equitably included in life and can progress through all levels of education and into the workforce? There may be more questions here than answers but I believe that part of what today is about is to reflect on how the provision of education in Ireland aligns with the UNCRPD in creating an inclusive society.

Article 24 of the convention requires the provision of an inclusive education system at all levels so people can reach their full potential and participate effectively in a free society. It further specifies ways in which people with disabilities are to be included by ensuring effective individualised support measures and reasonable accommodations are provided in environments that maximise academic and social development consistent with the goal of full inclusion.

I would like to focus on this goal of social development. It is not just the person with the disability who needs the social development but his or her peers as well. I grew up with a very limited understanding of disability as there were no children with disabilities in my school. Never having had any connection to a person with a disability, people with disabilities were invisible to me for many years and so it is for countless others until they are confronted with a health condition, injury or alteration to life as they know it and everything changes.

Returning to work after an illness or injury can be challenging but it is not impossible if workplaces are open to talking through options. Unfortunately, many have limited experience of disability management in the workplace and are unsure where to start. As a result, the absence is unnecessarily prolonged and, in some cases, results in exit from the workforce.

Let us imagine the transformation to the workforce of the future if all present-day children grew up with a better understanding of disability and learned in classrooms surrounded by children of all capabilities, where differences are not seen in negative terms but are supported through a variety of teaching methods, embracing all learning styles, and where teachers who themselves have disabilities teach and where Braille or sign language resources are readily available, as referenced in Article 24. That is what inclusive education looks like. Students graduate and emerge into the working world with an understanding of disability and a positive experience of inclusion; they have begun to cultivate a more inclusive mindset from a young age. Students with disabilities will have a richer learning experience and be able to compete on a more equal platform for jobs in the open labour market.

I believe our students of today need to learn about principles of universal design regardless of their field of study. They need to learn to ask questions about how people interact with the built environment, products and services. They need to ask how these interactions change as we go through life and perhaps acquire disabilities or health conditions as we age. They need to ask themselves how the work environment can support this transition and know that the answer is by designing systems of work and jobs that are universally accessible to all, to the greatest extent possible, without the need for adaptation or specialised design. Today's students are our future leaders, product and system engineers, recruitment managers and architects who will design our future cities, grow organisations and create a society that is inclusive and open to exploring options that serve everybody.

I am sure many of the members here today will have heard said it is society that disables people, creates barriers of accessibility and excludes people. Our students of today need to listen to the voice of people with disabilities so that they can create, with intent, an inclusive future world. To do that, they need to graduate from a system that everybody has been part of.

In preparing for today, I asked some primary school teachers their experience of disability in their classrooms. In addition to their desire to have more special needs assistants, SNAs, their responses included the need for more training in how to better support disability. Some were clear on the need for specific training on supporting children with autism and were in agreement that more training of this nature should be mandatory.

I trust my contribution today has bridged a gap in making the connection of our present-day students being captains of industry for tomorrow coming from an inclusive system that has supported all needs equitably. I thank the members for their time.

I thank Ms Finn for her contribution. Ms Marianne Hennessy is from Cope Foundation and Mr. Craig Kelly is president of the Ability Board advocacy group and a participant in the Ability@Work programme. I call Ms Hennessy, first, and then Mr. Kelly, to make their contributions.

Ms Marian Hennessy

My name is Marian Hennessy and I am the co-ordinator of Ability@Work in Cope Foundation in Cork city. I thank the committee for this opportunity to speak to the members today to highlight the barriers people with an intellectual disability and autism continue to face when seeking employment.

Cope Foundation is a Cork-based charity supporting 2,800 people who have intellectual disabilities and autism. Latest figures from the ESRI, published in 2021, show that over 71% of people with disabilities and of working age in Ireland are unemployed. We need to address this.

I am making this submission today on behalf of people we support in the Ability@Work programme. Ability@Work promotes inclusive employment and works closely with employers to provide sustainable supported employment opportunities. We link employers with people who are distant from the labour market. We receive our referrals from school-leavers and from adult day services where people have completed their second level education in specialist schools affiliated to Cope Foundation services. This programme was funded for three years through the national ability programme and now through interim funding from the Dormant Accounts Fund and Pobal until December 2022. We are one of 45 funded programmes around the country but, unfortunately, what we have at present is a sporadic and scattered service across the country with a particular lack of supports for people living in rural areas.

Ability@Work is a successful model of best practice creating inclusive workplaces. We have supported 100 people who were unemployed. Over the past three and a half years, we have placed 73 people in paid jobs and are upskilling a further 70 people in preparation for work. This model is easily adaptable and transferable across all marginalised groups.

Future funding for this programme will be key. It will be essential to give the people we support the security to know their service will be available for them in the long term. We need to be able to employ highly skilled job coaches and offer them job security. We also need to be able to offer a sustainable service to employers. We must budget for post-school training and work supports. We are over-reliant on funding that does not offer longevity or security to the people we support. For true inclusion to happen in the workplace, the disability sector needs long-term committed support and resources from Government to enable specialist services, such as ourselves, to support and maintain in jobs the people we know whose needs cannot be met by Intreo or the EmployAbility service.

We need to change the culture of low expectation for people with additional or more complex impairments. We can do this through early interventions in mainstream and specialist schools, incorporating career guidance, valuable work placements and engaging with local employers. We must work to change employer attitudes so that it becomes the norm to have a person with different ability in the workplace. This cultural shift needs to happen through campaigns with families, employers, HR professionals, trade unions and support networks. We must encourage employers to see the business case. We need to address disability awareness and encourage companies to be inclusive throughout all aspects of their businesses. Employers need to be fully informed of all the supports they can avail of and the services available to them. Post Covid-19, in our experience, very little has changed for the people we support. They are excluded from general recruitment practices due to lack of experience and qualifications. Often employers will only recruit for full-time roles and will not allow flexibility or accommodations. The online screening and application systems make it impossible for some of the people with intellectual disabilities to compete for a role. The design of job descriptions and essential requirements must be changed to ensure we are including everybody during the recruitment process.

As we plan to go forward over the next decade, innovations in technology will have a significant impact on people's ability to keep pace with all the technological advances. It may leave many people behind. However, these advancements in technology can also open up more opportunities and independence for people with higher support needs. They may also enable people with more severe impairments and mobility issues to transition to employment. For example, the Getting A Life programme in the UK, which finished in March 2021, was set up to enable people with severe intellectual disabilities achieve paid employment and have full lives when they leave education. In Ireland, many are leaving mainstream school or have finished training courses and are finding themselves at home with their parents and without supports. Often they do not know where to go or even the supports to which they are entitled. For many, there are no supports in their locality.

Projects like Ability@Work are good value for money, having more positive outcomes for people and their families. Sometimes getting a job is only one part of the solution. Being part of a workforce and being treated as an equal has much more significance.

It cannot be understated that the transition out of Covid-19 is a further barrier. Some people do not feel comfortable going out in large crowds. Some have lost their social skills and ability to return with confidence to the workplace. Some have lost their jobs.

As stated in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, everybody has the right to employment and to earn freely a living of their choosing. I will hand over to my co-presenter today, Mr. Craig Kelly, who is a participant on the Ability@Work Programme, who will talk to the committee about his lived experience.

Mr. Craig Kelly

I am the president of the very first Ability Board. I have an intellectual disability, but that is not who I am. The Ability Board is an advocacy group that fights for the rights of people with intellectual disabilities in education and employment.

I want to share with the committee something very personal. I finally have the courage to speak openly about this. It is just one of many stories of when I was discriminated against just because of who I am.

When I first started in Ability@Work, in 2018, I started job searching. When I finally got an interview, I was very excited. I and my job coach prepared for this interview for days and I felt confident before I went into the interview. The interview was going great until I mentioned the fact I had a job coach. They asked me what a job coach was. I told them they help people with disabilities find employment and I knew straight away they did not want me to work there or even hire me to give me a chance. I knew when their faces fell and I could tell by their body language. I was really upset because of this. I felt like a fool. I said to my job coach that I did not even know whether I even had the confidence or heart to go to another interview because of getting denied and thinking no one would ever want me. Ability@Work helped me through this because I thought to myself I would be no good anywhere else. I am still very nervous of interviews, especially if there is more than one person there. That experience still really affects me to this day.

It took a lot of work to pick me back up from the anxiety I was feeling about my future. I just thought I was useless and I would never be anything. After a while, my job coach encouraged me to get involved in advocacy. That is how I became president of the Ability Board. The election campaign really changed my life for the better. It was such an exciting time. It made me feel so powerful and important. The day of the election was one I will never forget. I have learnt now that having a disability is nothing to be ashamed of. The more we talk about it, the more it will be accepted. I have an invisible disability and I always found it hard when it came to the end of an application and the company asks you to tick a box if you have any disability. I never knew what the right thing to do was. Would they never accept me if I ticked "Yes"? Would they even hire me to give me a chance? Now I always just tick "Yes". I do not want to work for a company that would not even interview someone with a disability, but it took a long time for me to get to this stage.

The Ability Board wants to talk to people in charge of Irish companies who can really make change in a workplace. We believe we can change the recruitment to make it more inclusive by becoming part of interview panels in Irish companies. We also want to give companies disability awareness training with the help of Ability@Work staff. There is no point in giving disability awareness training if you have never had to deal with the barriers we face every day. We are the ones who should be training people. The Ability Board wants to bring Easy to Read to businesses, public places and tourism. Easy to Read documents are made up of short, very simple sentences that just have the most important messages on them. Easy to Read uses pictures to help people understand better. We can make decisions if we can understand what is going on. Easy to Read needs to become something that everyone in the country understands. We want to make this a reality. As president of the Ability Board I want to be the voice for other people with different abilities in Ireland. It is my duty to do this. I want to change how people look at the word "disability", and teach people about how you can be part of the change. I want to make sure we are treated as equals and not like children. Even as adults we are often treated like children. People make decisions for us all the time. The Ability Board wants to change this. We are the real definition of "nothing about us without us".

Ms Rita Walsh

On behalf of Down Syndrome Ireland, and in particular the Kildare branch, we thank the Joint Committee on Disability Matters for inviting us to speak here today. My name is Rita Walsh, chairperson of the branch and I am joined by Gráinne Gorey, our secretary and Dr. Fidelma Brady, head of education with Down Syndrome Ireland.

The Kildare branch was founded 1985 by a group of courageous and forward-thinking parents. We now support 235 members and their families across Kildare and west Wicklow. We are a voluntary organisation under the umbrella of Down Syndrome Ireland. Our funding sources are fundraising, donations from families, course contributions from members and grant applications. The supports the branch provides are Parent Link, early development groups, speech and language therapy for all age groups, information workshops and social activities. The Kildare branch first introduced our adult education programme in 2012 when Down Syndrome Ireland introduced the literacy and technology hands-on, LATCH-on, adult literacy programme to Ireland. This programme was introduced as a direct response for families who wished to have their adult person with Down's syndrome engaged in a meaningful educational experience after formal schooling. Families felt that there was a huge void in this area for our adults over 18. The Kildare branch has run adult literacy programmes for the past ten years which have been very well attended.

In 2018 the branch decided to expand its adult education opportunities by introducing a horticulture project to acknowledge the different interests and strengths among our students. After much work the branch was able to launch our new horticulture programme, An Garraí Beag, in Sallins in September 2019. The programme was developed to provide an opportunity for our adult members to develop skills and to have meaningful engagement in training and practice in horticulture, and so that our members would have opportunities to use those skills to make a real contribution in their local communities and to engage in some small opportunities of social enterprise. Pre-Covid-19 we had 20 students attending over two days each week in Sallins. At present we have 12 students attending in Sallins over two days and six students in our second site in Donadea. We added the Donadea site to our programmes this year in September 2021 due to the demand for horticulture. Our site in Sallins, because of its central location, offers our students many opportunities, including independent travel. Many of our students travel by bus or train from Newbridge, Naas, Maynooth, Clane and Newcastle. Our students also enjoy access to the local community to sell their produce, as well as opportunities to make meaningful contributions in the community such as engaging with Tidy Towns, keeping flowerbeds around the church tidy, providing Christmas wreaths and being an active part of what goes on in Sallins village. The students have taken part in decorating for the St. Patrick's Day festivities and won a competition for the best Halloween display in 2021 with Kildare Community Stories.

As our site in Donadea is in a rural setting, it offers our students a different set of experiences. The site has room for small animals such as hens, ducks, rabbits and lambs which gives the students the chance to learn some animal husbandry. As the site is bigger than the Sallins site, it will allow us to also grow some fruit bushes, potatoes, pumpkins and things that need more space. The rural setting lends itself to nice walks and the group have engaged with Kildare County Council in adopting our green kilometre where the students pick litter in the area around our site. We also hope to engage with the nature around us, for example through the installation of bird and bat boxes with BirdWatch Ireland.

Much has been written about the benefits of people engaging in gardening and nature, and the Covid-19 pandemic has proven this to be true. In some countries horticulture is now being prescribed by doctors as a support for people who struggle with mental health or trauma. In recent times there has been intensive research done by Professor Mary McCarron and Dr. Eimear McGlinchey of Trinity College on the subject of Alzheimer's disease and dementia in adults with Down's syndrome. The overwhelming evidence is that people with Down's syndrome are extremely vulnerable to early onset dementia with onset being up to 20 years earlier than the average for the general population. Equally, it is thought that up to 40% of all dementia cases can be prevented or mitigated with the right lifestyle choices. The research suggests that the best preventative or mitigating action for our people, against the threat of early onset dementia, is to stay physically active, mentally challenged, socially included and emotionally connected. We feel strongly that these programmes create many opportunities for our people to meet those goals.

I thank all our speakers this morning for their contributions. We now go to Deputy Pauline Tully from the committee for her opening remarks and questions.

I thank the witnesses for attending this meeting and telling us what their work is. I commend all of them and their organisations on the great work they have done and do. I was interested in asking Ms Hayes and Ms Finn to elaborate on how disabled people access their services and how their organisations identify and reach out to different employers or educators. When Mr. Kelly spoke about the interview board and how the people reacted to him it reminded me of the story a woman told me recently. She told me her son had just graduated with a master's degree in information technology and that when she was inquiring about work with an organisation, the people were very interested until she mentioned that her son is autistic. Suddenly they were not so interested. That brings us back to something Ms Finn said - that many of us have a limited understanding of disability because we have no connection. How do we address that? Many of the speakers mentioned inclusive education. I am very interested in how they envisage that because I know parents are always nervous, especially when their child progresses from primary to secondary school. If their child has additional needs, they may be even more nervous and sometimes choose to send their child to a special school rather than to a mainstream school. I wonder what the speakers' thoughts are on that. Would they see inclusive education as being mainstream with many additional supports for people with disabilities or people with Down's syndrome? I come from an educational background. I taught in a school which had many students with additional needs so we had a very inclusive environment but I know not all schools are like that. What are their thoughts on those questions?

I thank Deputy Tully. Who wants to take this question first? We will start with Ms Hayes.

Ms Claire Hayes

I thank the Deputy for the question. In regard to how people access services at the Open Doors initiative and the Towards Work project, this can be through referrals. The Open Doors initiative has a network of supporting partners from different national charities which may refer some of their participants. More often than not this happens through organic contacts, whereby somebody might reach out specifically to us to ask for advice around accommodation, or they are going for an interview and want some support, or they access one of our online training sessions and attend there. That is where we start to grow that network. In regard to employers, we have another project called Employers for Change.

This is a free information service for any employer that provides disability awareness training and information on-----

(Interruptions).

Ms Claire Hayes

-----hiring practices are inclusive and to provide training for interview panels. On the-----

(Interruptions).

Is Ms Hayes on mute? I think we dropped out for a moment.

Ms Claire Hayes

No problem. I cannot speak to the question on primary and second level as we work with people aged 17 and upwards. We focus on further education and third level. I will pass that question to Ms Finn or Ms Walsh who might want to pick it up instead. They might be better fit to answer it.

Ms Rita Walsh

Is it okay if I take that question?

Ms Rita Walsh

My own lived experience concerns my 32-year-old daughter. When she started primary school in 1995 there was no such thing as a special needs assistant, SNA, or a resource teacher. She started with a junior infants teacher the same as everybody else and was in first class before an SNA came for two hours a day. She was in second class before a resource teacher came, who was divided between five schools in a rural area. It can be imagined how well that was divided out. By the time she left primary school, she had the resources that made her life in school very good. When we tried to move to secondary school, there was again a major fight and battle, and it was wearing and grinding to get there, but we did. We got the resources and she went to secondary school.

Parents of my generation with loved ones with Down's syndrome are very aware of the progress that has been made in education. Children who have Down's syndrome or disabilities now go to school. I have seen the richness that has brought to the lives of many people. However, for us, when our people turned 18, it fell off a cliff. We now see that as the new border and boundary. We are excited about our programmes in Kildare because we believe we have to set a thing up in an environment for success and not failure. We have to create the bespoke scaffolding around people that makes it succeed. We know the people in our horticulture programme. We know each one is different from the other, in addition to the variety and spectrum of strengths and challenges they have. We have people in our horticulture programme who could sell snow to Eskimos along with people who do not speak at all. We have to create the interaction that will allow those people to give of their best and be recognised for their social role in society.

This is about education but I see education as everything we learn that we did not know the day before. It is not something marked by a leaving certificate or junior certificate. I know all those things must be part of what we do, but I see education as everything that makes people richer than they are. For our people, the big challenge then becomes how to hold on to what they have learned. Our people have done very well in primary and secondary school. They have worked very hard, as have their parents and the school communities, to get them to a certain level of literacy, numeracy and skills. If they do not have real and inclusive opportunities to use those skills, whether it is in further education, bespoke further education or supported further education, or supported and bespoke employment opportunities, they will lose those skills. The loss of those skills means loss of independence, which will affect their mental health, and a significant amount of potential will be lost to society.

I will give an example. Yesterday, the group I work with at the polytunnel in Donadea, adopted the green kilometre along our walk. In any village or town in Ireland on any weekend, people in high-vis vests will be seen out collecting litter and someone will say to himself or herself, "Aren't they great people?", because they enhance our surroundings, our environment and our lives. They make a lovely contribution to the quality of our lives. Our people were out yesterday in their high-vis vests, with their pickers or whatever, and that is what people would have said. They would not have said these are people with Down's syndrome, but they are great people because they are making a valued social contribution. That is education too. We have made major progress in primary and secondary schools. We are now at a new frontier and we must push on that barrier again.

Ms Mary Finn

I will circle back to the earlier question on how people access my service. It is called Connect4Work and is a service primarily aimed at employers but is very much in support of the employee who is either in work at present but at risk of an absence because there is a challenge going on in his or her life, or that employee is already absent and is now trying to return to his or her job and work. It is all about exploring reasonable accommodations, putting together a return-to-work plan to make sure the person can return to his or her job in a gradual way that is supported. It includes support of the application process for any grants the employer can apply for that will allow the employee to make that transition back. It is generally employers that will contact me, but individuals sometimes contact me and we transfer them to working with an employer. I am based in Galway but I offer the service nationwide. I have connected with Christabelle Feeney in the Employers for Change service. I also link in with different organisations and different supports.

I cannot speak for education but from my experience of working with organisations, as I referenced earlier, if people do not have experience of disability, when it comes into their lives, which it might via another person with a disability, such as a work colleague or somebody they are supporting or supervising, they do not know how to talk about disability. They may not understand that particular person's experience. Mr. Kelly gave a very personal account of his experience. For people living in a world where they have a disability, people outside that world do not understand it. It is very important for people who are coming back into the workplace after they have acquired a health condition, or there is a mental health challenge, a physical disability or whatever the reason for the absence, that organisations are open to exploring reasonable accommodations. This includes asking people what they need and what employers can do to help them to come back, engaging in conversations as early as possible and keeping people connected with work so they can return to work in a very safe, planned and sustainable way. This is so they do not end up exiting the workforce, being distanced from it and trying to get back into it. As Ms Hayes and others have mentioned, it is more difficult to get back into the workplace. Employees might have a job coach and employers could be worried about what it means for them and how they can support it, in addition to not knowing anything about it and not understanding it.

That is where I am coming from. When there is inclusive education and children coming through classrooms where they experience disability, for example, my children, who are in classes with others with many different capabilities, they do not see those other students as being anything different. They are just the girls and boys in their class. They see it as nothing different. I know that when my children get into college and working life, if they are placed in a position of having to support somebody, it will not be a huge thing because they know how to ask questions of the people in their class, such as "Can I help you?" and "What do you need from me?" That is why having mainstream education with much more supports, as Ms Walsh mentioned, is the way to go forward. When we have inclusive education and everybody comes through the same system, they have a better understanding and know how to ask questions. I hope that answers Deputy Tully's question.

Thank you. Does anyone else want to come in?

Ms Marian Hennessy

I want to make a comment. I sometimes feel the participants in our programme are very fortunate because they have a lot of support networks within our own organisation but, every week, people with very different disabilities and impairments will contact my office from anywhere around the country. There are a couple of pinch points. One is when people who have attended mainstream schools leave them and go to college. They start courses and it does not work out and they do not fit in. They find that transition piece of going to college, leaving home and trying to find a new support network difficult. Maybe their social skills just do not back them up whereas everybody else has that opportunity. We often find that people are falling out of courses and going back home, and they are not quite sure about their options and choices.

With regard to the other pinch point I am coming across, I had a call yesterday from a third level student who has gone through accountancy exams but is not being supported by the employer to complete exams. There is no support out there for that person to try to move into employment. A lot more needs to be done in this area to give some form of transition support. As I said, parents whose children have gone through the mainstream system are coming back to ask if there is any possibility they can access Ability@Work or Cope Foundation services. That is sad because people should be able to get the same services in the mainstream as what we offer.

Thank you. I call Senator Fiona O'Loughlin.

I thank all of the witnesses for their compelling stories in a really important area. I have a number of questions that I will go through and I will mention the person I might like to answer. I will go in the order of the presentations.

We first had Ms Hayes from the Open Doors initiative. Ms Hayes spoke about the need to transform employment opportunities for people with disabilities. I could not agree more because the figures are very stark with regard to young people and older people with disabilities having the opportunity to have meaningful work experience and earn their own money. What would Ms Hayes’s key recommendations be with regard to what is needed? She might outline what she thinks is needed in regard to improvements in grants or supports to encourage, support and sustain people in that situation.

Ms Finn spoke about the need for disability awareness in schools, which is very important, and she might have particular suggestions around that. I am also interested to know how her organisation supports business organisations to create that culture of openness for diversity, inclusion and disability. It is about helping to create that culture. Ms Finn mentioned schools and it is obviously needed in schools. I think we are actually getting there with schools but a lot of work needs to be done within work and business organisations. Children grow with children, and where children are in a classroom with some of their peers with disabilities, it is completely natural and part of their world. However, work life is that little bit different.

I know the excellent work the Cope Foundation does and I have some experience of it. Ms Hennessy talked about the need for the post-school training and upskilling that the foundation does, which is quite similar to what Ms Walsh was talking about. There is a particular gap that needs to be addressed by giving those sustainable supports to employers as well. Is the Cope Foundation fully back up and running after the pandemic? I am interested in that because we are at a stage where society is starting to open up. We need to make sure that those supports and the different agencies that work with people with disabilities are up and running, which is needed.

On a point to Mr. Kelly, or should I say “Mr. President”, I am incredibly impressed by his presentation. I am sorry he had a negative experience when he was interviewing for a job. If he was interviewing for a job here, he would definitely be the first to get it. He gave an excellent presentation. He should be very proud of the work he does on the Ability Board and he is on the button in what he said about Easy to Read. We all need to learn lessons about that. Perhaps Mr. Kelly could tell us a little about the supports that helped him in terms of progressing to be the man he is now.

I want to go next to Ms Walsh and Ms Gorey, whom I know very well. They are two incredible volunteers who do tremendous work for the families of those with Down’s syndrome throughout Kildare. I know they both have the experience, as mothers. Throughout this whole committee, we have been talking about lived experience all along, and they certainly bring that in terms of the work they are doing. I was fortunate to visit the services they provide a few times, particularly the horticultural services. As Ms Walsh outlined, that has really become part of the whole village of Sallins in terms of how they work with the Tidy Towns and other groups, which is fantastic.

In particular, I would like to ask Ms Walsh about the gap that now exists between education and health. Their service is volunteer led but, obviously, tutors have to be paid for. Previously, this was paid through a section 39 organisation and the health budget. It was then decided that as this was education, it should come through the education budget and the education and training boards, ETBs, but only ETBs in Dublin are actually providing that link. I acknowledge that we had meetings with the Ministers of State, Deputies Anne Rabbitte and Niall Collins, on trying to define where that funding piece can come from. However, there still is no solution in that regard and there needs to be. Ms Walsh might address that gap because, to me, it is shocking that there is not a plan in place for those who are leaving school at 18 to give them the opportunity to retain what they have and to learn.

Ms Walsh also spoke about the link between Down's syndrome and Alzheimer's and the very stark figures in that regard. I know there is the possibility of doing a pilot project over five years, which would be very helpful in defining strategies that could help. We all know that research and facts are needed but I do not think any such research has been carried out in Ireland. Ms Walsh might address that as well.

Thank you. I will call the speakers in the order that the Senator put the questions. I call Ms Hayes.

Ms Claire Hayes

I thank Senator O'Loughlin for the questions. I will take them in two pieces. In terms of key recommendations in order to improve the experience of people with disabilities moving into education, the Open Doors initiative works with anyone who is 17 and upwards, so I can only speak to third level and further education, although that might be helpful in this instance. As Ms Walsh has already pointed out, there is a bit of a drop when people get to that point. The way we generally approach our training, in particular awareness training, is that we are moving from the medical model to the social model. We no longer put the onus of resolving the issue or problem on the shoulders of the person with a disability, and we look at it from a social perspective and in terms of what systems are actually creating the issues.

From speaking to different employers and some educators, I know there is much fear. Ms Finn has spoken about this. The Senator is on about people's lack of awareness and knowledge and a fear of offending. A hugely important and vital thing that we could do for our educators moving forward is to introduce disability awareness training as part of professional development, and not just as one course, but as something that is continued on.

It would be incredibly helpful if we had a standard of accessibility for lectures and learning spaces. From Covid, we have seen different tech improve. For example, we have closed captioning on MS Teams now. We can access all of this supportive technology that should be utilised within the classroom. This information should be shared with our educators and lecturers.

As part of the standard of training, it will create an awareness and permanence and the ability to have those conversations. Most importantly, we will teach our educators to see the potential of their students. It is not about learning how to teach people with a disability, it is about being aware and able to see their full potential and guide them properly on their career paths. I hope that covers the key recommendations. I do not want to take up too much time focusing on that piece.

In terms of grants and supports, the feedback I have come across from our participants is that they struggle to find what they need, to gather it and figure who they need to speak to. I know things have started to change a little bit so there are some more centralised hubs and there are different organisations. However, one of the things we are looking and hoping to build is a centralised hub of resources that could point and signpost people to where they need to seek support. The hub could inform people of what grants are available and also include a really simple way of showing how a person’s supports or grants will be impacted if he or she takes up employment or education – for example, "at this level, this is how it will change". That way, people will have a full sight and a full picture. At the moment, we are finding fear across all educators and our participants. This fear of not knowing is creating a barrier as well and a lack of confidence in the knowledge that they have. Opening up a hub or some sort of centralised online system where people can find out that information immediately and in an easy an accessible way could be very important. I hope that answers the Senator’s questions and I am happy to fill out any more she may have.

Ms Mary Finn

I thank the Senator for her questions. On her first question about schools, that is not an area I work. As a parent of children in school, I have ideas about it. I might answer that question through her second question, which was on how my organisation promotes cultures of inclusivity in businesses.

As I mentioned, the service is working with employers and employees. Perhaps I will demonstrate how the services happen and that fosters cultures of inclusion by way of example. The goal of the service is not to be focusing on the absence, but more to promote attendance, ability and retention. An example is that I have been supporting one particular person who is coming back to work after being away for more than two years. One of the main reasons for her absence was that she acquired a visual impairment. She works in an area that is very technical. There is an awful lot of very technical and long documents that she needs to read through. Therefore, we have put in place a text-to-speech reading software for her so that she now has the option to turn this feature on and have the text read to her. While all of this was going on and being put in place and the most suitable solution was being researched for her, training was being provided to her so she would be able to use the software. The training is equally as important as just providing the accommodation. Sometimes when reasonable accommodations, by way of access or technology, are put in place, people do not always get full training on how to use it, leaving them not knowing how to use it and with no supports.

In supporting the manager to assist his or her employee, I made the suggestion to make this available to the entire team. It will be a benefit to this particular individual and it will also benefit the entire time, because they then all have the option to have the text read to them, which would help them to get through their work perhaps a little bit quicker. It would certainly be easier for them if they have to read a very heavy and technically jargoned document at the end of a long day. Now the organisation is looking into making that technology available to everybody.

This is how my work supports organisations to foster cultures of inclusion. If that organisation is now going out and recruiting for that team, it can say that this is a feature and it would be easier for everybody to be able to do their work. They are now not just looking at the text-to-speech readers, they are also now looking at speech-to-text translators as well. It will work both ways.

Very often when one looks at a reasonable accommodation for a person, it actually works to the benefit of their wider team. I could keep everyone here today giving many more examples, but do not worry, I will not. I hope that answers the Senator’s question. My focus is on ability, attendance and retention and how that extends to the rest of the team and the entire organisation by making it inclusive and supportive of people.

At the end of the day, we are all people. We all want to be in work. Work is a huge part of our identity. If one can support an individual, that then creates opportunities for others who might be experiences challenges to say, "Mickey Joe over there was supported when he was coming back. I also have a challenge, so I will be supported in a similar compassionate and empathic manner as well. Therefore, I will not be afraid to ask for supports." That is part of the wider goal I have for my organisation, to support organisations to be much more open and disability confident in their conversations and to know how to ask questions. I hope that answers the Senator’s question. If she has any other questions, I would be happy to answer them.

Ms Hennessy is on mute.

Ms Marian Hennessy

To answer the Senator’s question, we were very fortunate that our services continued through Covid-19. We managed to offer service online. In fact, we had 24 people on our programme working as front-line workers through the pandemic. We had to look at our programme and see what we could do to improve our employment options. We looked to the pharmaceutical companies and to the retail sector and found job opportunities in these areas.

The Senator spoke about gaps in the post training and upskilling area and the only way we can address all these issues is by having a person-centred approach. This is something we have done in Ability@Work. We were delivering a programme for about a year and thought we were doing fine until we sat down and asked the participants in the programme about what they think, want and need. This is what we need in these decisions and making decisions here today. We need to be asking the people who have the lived experience. We have no idea what type of world they are in and the barriers they are facing.

We write up and deliver programmes, but have we really considered asking people whether we are meeting their needs and what accommodations they need? That is a big gap. We are great at talking to and about people but I do not know whether we really include them and ask them for their opinions, and that is something we need to do.

I am a strong believer in examining pathways alternative to the traditional one, that is, from secondary school to vocational training centres and day services. We need to offer alternatives for people, no matter what their ability is. They are entitled to access mainstream services but much work has to be done to offer the proper supports. I refer not just to scribes and personal assistants but a proper wraparound service for people in order that they can enjoy third level education or be part of the workforce. I cannot say strongly enough how much we need to educate employers. Every week, we knock on doors in Cork and bring the same message. After working with businesses for 30 years, I still meet people who do not understand what it is to have an inclusive workforce. They do not understand what supported employment is, nor appreciate that people can have different ways of learning.

Mr. Craig Kelly

Without the supports of Ability@Work, I would not be where I am today nor have a job. I applied for jobs previously on my own and got nowhere, but I got there with the support of Ability@Work. Before all this came about, I felt powerless but now, having been elected president of the ability board, I feel as though I have power. I am supporting not just myself but many other people just like me, with intellectual or other disabilities. It is so important for someone with a disability to have his or her own voice. As I said earlier, we are often treated like children and decisions are made for us, instead of us being asked what we would like to do and how we would like to go about it. With Ability@Work, we teach a lot more than we are taught. The people involved learn from us and always ask us what we want to do, what courses we are interested in and what we foresee as our career for the rest of our lives, and they try to set up that.

I reiterate that without Ability@Work, I would not be where I am today. I am happy with how I am doing. I now have a job and I am not discriminated against there. I had an interview and was treated like any other person, and I am thankful for that.

Ms Rita Walsh

To describe the gap we see between education and health, I might outline my lived experience. My daughter left school in 2009, having studied modules in the leaving certificate applied, and the question was what she would do next. When we did some research, the only options involved the local service provider, and the funding for that was routed through the HSE. Because there were no other options, we engaged with that, but it quickly became obvious to us that it did not suit her. Not only did it not meet her needs but it was detrimental to her mental health. We had to do something about that, so we started to create a programme for her by ourselves outside of that. We had to find the funding we needed to do that because there was no other option.

In 2013, I started to hear about personalised budgets. I attended a seminar on the subject in Killarney and began to feel passionately that they might be the way to go. With a lot of negotiation, work and lobbying as a family, we got a personalised budget in 2014, as part of a pilot scheme. To say it was transformative to my daughter's life would be an understatement. She now had a level of autonomy over her life, supported by us. We should, and do, have a natural authority in her life because we are the people who have been there since the day she was born and we know her best. We were able to create a life for her that she wanted. It was diverse and had all the elements that all of us consider to constitute a good life. It had elements of education and work and there was somebody to support her in a very bespoke way. It was not a case of one size fits all but rather a size that fitted her and her alone, and that has continued to this day. It has greatly enhanced the quality of life for not just her but for us too because we know where it is and we are part of the plan.

I met fantastic people within service provision but it just was not for her. She was part of the national task force on personalised budgets, launched by the then Minister of State with responsibility for disability issues, Finian McGrath, in 2016, and that offered great hope that this would become more widely available to people with Down’s syndrome. This year, we held a meeting in our branch with parents of students who are finishing forming school. It is difficult to see how the opportunities for them are any different from what they used to be. In Kildare, we had a really good relationship with the HSE and service providers and we are grateful for that. They supported many of the members who were going to certain service providers to access our programmes. Our literacy and horticulture programmes are bespoke in that they take great recognition of the learning strengths and challenges of people with Down’s syndrome and their learning profile. Even to teach a lesson in our horticulture programme, the providers will be aware there are three levels, whereby some people are visual learners, so visual aids will be used with them, while others can read and write quite well. We have to be constantly aware that some people use pictures for everything they communicate, whereas others can write quite well.

The Senator asked about the gap between education and health. For me, it is about creating a good life, irrespective of which funding budget it comes from or whatever. It should be a life that meets what most of us consider to be a good life. We need much more flexibility in respect of how funding is allocated for people with disabilities. Even the HSE has indicated that it needs to be more creative and think outside the box. We tend to change the needs of the people rather than the structures that underpin the funding. As our people age, with the significant threat of early-onset dementia, education and health become intrinsically linked given that, if a person is to hold on to the literacy he or she has learned, he or she must also hold on to a word bank and language skills. The question, therefore, is whether the two issues can really be separated in that way. It is not about deciding whether it is a matter of health or education but instead what is the best approach for these people, rather than from where the budget comes.

To follow on from a point the Senator made, we at Down Syndrome Ireland are very proud of our work with the education and training boards, ETBs, and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. It will be very significant for our people that programmes within the ETBs will meet their needs as they leave school. Currently, there are very few options when they leave school to continue into further education, and that will be brilliant. Beyond that time, when our people are not school-leavers but are entering their late 20s and early 30s, when they will still require that literacy challenge and mental challenge to militate against early-onset dementia, with all those sorts of engagement, it does not really matter whether it is an issue of health or education but rather that the support is there.

It is about living ordinary lives in ordinary places with ordinary people for all of us. It is not spectacular; it is not the cure for Down's syndrome. It is about meeting that need and, as one of the speakers said, providing a wraparound bespoke solution keeping it all together.

The Senator also spoke about the research on Alzheimer's disease and dementia. As a parent of somebody with Down's syndrome, the first time I heard about the research I was floored. I wanted to go home and hide under the duvet since I felt all the work we had put in was for nothing because the actual scientific research said this was coming down the track. The hope from that seminar with Professor Mary McCarron was that we can mitigate it and give the best quality of life to our people. We can push the can down the road and mitigate the symptoms and stresses of early onset dementia by how we allow our people to live their lives. That is why we need be inventive and need to change. That is why it needs to be bespoke. I implore the Government to look at personalised budgets and individualised funding and make it a realistic option for our people. It is for Government to decide how that will be done, but it needs to be there and it needs to be bespoke. I hope I have answered all the Senator's questions.

I thank all the witnesses for their contributions. Ms Walsh said the aspiration is for ordinary lives in ordinary places with ordinary people. My experience is with people going into employment on a community employment scheme. They are afraid to ask about security of tenure and whether they will be employed afterwards because they are afraid to rock the boat. In some instances, informal arrangements are in place and nobody really wants to ask the question in case asking the question brings about a termination, especially if the funding is extended in an unofficial or informal manner. That is not on and needs to end. Everyone has the right to know about their future and if they will still be working there rather than in such temporary arrangements. That is where I have encountered it, working with families of people with Down's syndrome or autism. We need to ensure people are supported to live their best lives, to borrow that phrase from Cheeverstown.

How radical does our thinking need to be? My background is in employment law and in assisting companies with ethical audits to ensure the goods they source do not involve human trafficking etc. Big companies oblige smaller suppliers to overcome hurdles to ensure they are proofed against reputational damage. There may be a template in that. To secure a public contract through eTenders or similar, there may be an opportunity to introduce radical thinking requiring employers to demonstrate they have looked at all their job descriptions and determined how to enable people with disabilities to apply for and secure those jobs. We should do something radical and different and have this in any application so that we are forcing it.

We introduced quotas for female candidates in elections because otherwise it would not happen. We should be thinking about a radical shake-up here. When we consider the marginalisation and poverty that comes with disability, we need to address that for everybody not just the person themselves but also the families who fear for what the future will look like when they are older and want to ensure some kind of security. How radical do we need to be? I want to enable that conversation and I would welcome the witnesses' comments.

In her presentation Ms Hynes outlined that she deals with Departments. I would like her to elaborate on that. Obviously, the Minister of State is obliging all Departments to prepare themselves for the adoption of the optional protocol. She has reassured us that they are all engaging radically. If Ms Hynes has been involved in supporting that, I would like to hear that.

Mr. Kelly's presentation was inspirational and challenging. I love that he wants to be the person to go in and train companies. Is his organisation funded to do that? Should it be? What can we call for on his behalf to ensure that? At the moment we have the threshold of employment accessibility whereby disabled people should not be discriminated against but clearly that is not working. As an employment lawyer, I have been on both sides of the table, on behalf of the employer and the employee. To enable him to command even more authority than he has as president of the ability board, should we require employers to prove they have engaged with the potential for diversity of employment that would enhance their employment as well as having a diverse workforce? Would Mr. Kelly like to see us do anything like that?

Mr. Craig Kelly

I thank the Senator for her questions. I will let Ms Hennessy reply on the funding question. On behalf of the Ability Board, as the Senator was saying, we want to train companies. We want to do it because we want everybody to be inclusive - every single company in Ireland if possible. From my experience, it has been hard going. Trying to get companies trained by us would be amazing. If there was anything we could set up in the future with anyone it would be great. It would be a big opportunity for us to grow and to expand our competence and learning.

Ms Marian Hennessy

The question posed was what kind of radical thinking could help Mr. Kelly and the Ability Board. Mr. Kelly and his group are trying to set up a social enterprise. There are ten or 12 people on the board and they want to be self-employed. Their idea is reaching out to companies. It is not even an idea; we have done it already with six companies in Cork. It is amazing to see the impact and the change when the people on the Ability Board are part of the disability awareness for a company. One company now employs six people and another employs six or seven people on the back of Mr. Kelly and Jamie speaking during disability awareness training.

This is a unique opportunity for the committee to look at helping to fund or set up Mr. Kelly and the Ability Board to help people nationally. It is a toolkit we can develop and share with other groups in order that the right people are making the right decisions and the right comments with the proper support.

To answer the question about radical thinking, we need to talk to people in recruitment. We know about the screening of CVs and that, with the automated online systems, it is getting more advanced. It is getting very difficult for the people I support and those Mr. Kelly interacts with. In fact, it is even challenging for the job coaches at the moment. I had a conversation one day with a HR manager in a company. He said, in his 15 years with the company, he had never once interviewed a person with a disability and asked why they were not applying to his company, which is a very well-known one in Cork. I asked him to show me a typical advert. When you put things in like "excellent communications skills", you are automatically going to exclude somebody who has a hearing issue or maybe a speech difficultly. It is those criteria companies automatically put in without even thinking. Where I work it was essential to have a full driving licence. It did not matter what the role was. It was just one of the criteria. These are small and simple changes. By bringing in people like Mr. Kelly, looking at the recruitment and getting advice at that stage, maybe we can open up the pathway a little more.

There can be much focus also on skills and aptitudes but maybe what we need to start looking at in companies or talking to them about is getting a person who is a good fit, because people can be trained. People can learn a job but it is far more important this person has the social skills, teamwork skills, ability and commitment to the company. One of the things I do when I visit companies in Cork is go on a walk-around and do a job analysis. I break down the job into all its components and see how I would match someone to a job. However, often I am in a company - it could be a manufacturing one or an IT one - where you would think some of the people we support might not have the skill sets. We ask them to carve out jobs. What are the occasional or weekly jobs we can break down into maybe a couple of hours a week that would open up an employment opportunity to somebody? We need to get away from the traditional, full-time, 39-hour a week job and look at different options and jobs people could do for four hours of a morning per week. In the public service as well it is something that needs to be opened up. People are hamstrung with regulation and red tape and many Departments to not have the flexibility to carve out jobs.

Another point is the wage subsidy scheme available where people can work for 21 hours per week. That is a great incentive to employers to open up opportunities. Many people we support are working an average of maybe 15 hours per week. That is something that could be addressed if we looked at reducing the hours for people who might have more complex needs or impairments.

I will finish with two other comments. I am working with a retail chain at the moment. It has committed to us that, every time it opens a store, it wants to employ somebody with an intellectual disability. That is a challenge for me in Cork because in every town in Cork I need to ensure I have a job coach present being able to support the person. The chain reached out to me throughout the year and said it wanted to roll this out nationally to every town in Ireland. There is a shop in every town in Ireland but I do not know whether there is a backup service to support the person. There are plenty of people available to go and work but we just do not have the supports. What was nice with this person recently was they employed a person with very complex needs on the autism spectrum. Due to the all the difficulties of Covid-19, this person is struggling to get back to where he was and has decided he does not want to return to work. That company has come back to me and asked can I ensure that, if I get somebody again for a job for it, he or she is a person to whom no one else will give a job. That is an amazing shift in thinking from an employer who has had that lived experience with a person we support. They are the recommendations I would make.

Does anyone else want to respond to Senator Seery Kearney's questions?

Ms Rita Walsh

One of the things that came to mind when Ms Hennessy was speaking was one of our students doing horticulture. We were collecting tomatoes and I was working with him. He was absolutely meticulous. Every tomato was taken down perfectly. No tomatoes were squished on the floor whereas I was losing a good percentage of mine on the floor but he got every single one. If he was to go for an interview where it said "excellent communication", he would not have got past the first bar because his communication is quite poor. He is meticulous in everything he does. He is meticulous in how tidy he keeps everything. Sometimes I think if we can capture the skill of people, even using video footage and things like that, then when we have the skill the person has, maybe we can look for the fit-out in the community where that skill is needed rather than sometimes trying to find out what kind of qualification this person has and then going looking for the job. We could instead find out what skill he or she has and see where that can take them then. That might be another way of looking at it.

Like Ms Hennessy said, it is very important the right supports are put in so someone is set up for success. If there is success with one person, that has a huge trickle effect across the board. If it is a success for the employer and employee, they are much more courageous about doing it again and about saying to some other employer to have a go at it and take a chance because it had been good for the original employer. Again, when we in Down Syndrome Ireland are working with employers, we find the employees themselves sometimes sell the whole concept. They are the ambassadors for it and the people who draw others in. Some people in hospitality say if there are employers attending those hospitality settings, sometimes seeing those people there actually triggers in them that maybe they will give it a chance too.

I think Senator Seery Kearney had a question for Ms Hayes.

Ms Claire Hayes

I thank the Senator for the question. I will start with whether we need radical thinking and change. I second everything Ms Hennessy and Ms Walsh have brought up about how it is not about radical thinking but instead these little steps in changing the language from the job advertisement to the interview process to when somebody starts in a role. Asking somebody to have a full driving licence when there is no requirement to travel does not make any sense. There is no logic behind that. It is just something that has always been done. It is about acknowledging there are things within the system we have always done such as "good communications" and "fast-paced environment" and asking what these things mean in reality to the person doing the job. It should be about the person's skills.

If we begin to create a culture through disability awareness training with employers, we can start to create better job advertisements that encourage other people to apply for them. From the get-go there should always be an equality statement with a job advertisement so the person who is applying knows he or she is going to be working for an inclusive employer. Mr. Kelly pointed to this. He said he would not want to work for this person if this is how they are going to treat him. He did not want to work for somebody who is going to dismiss his application because he has disclosed he has a disability. That is a really key piece. Reasonable accommodations should be offered at every step of the process, from saying there are such accommodations available when you advertise the job, throughout the interview process - however many interviews there are - and then again when a person starts in a role. A person with a disability is under no obligation to disclose he or she has a disability at any point. It is entirely up to him or her to share that information.

What we should be doing from an employer's perspective is encouraging a culture where people feel comfortable sharing, in order that they can ask for the reasonable accommodations they need to best succeed in their role.

When it comes to radical steps, I do not think these things are radical. They are very simple things we can do to make a huge difference. AHEAD did a study in 2019 and found that two out of the three reasonable accommodations that an employee asked for cost the employer nothing. There was no cost to them and the cost of the third was very minimal. We can make very small changes that can have huge impacts on a person's experience in employment and further education. The question was specifically about employment.

It is funny that the Senator mentioned gender quotas for elections. We have a target within public service employment as part of the comprehensive strategy for people with disabilities. We are looking for a minimum of 3%, which will increase to 6% in 2024. I am not quite sure where we are on that percentage at the moment. It is an interesting piece that has been brought up.

I do not think what we need is radical thinking. We need awareness and education. As I have mentioned before, there are a lot of fear-based reactions. People are afraid of saying the wrong thing or not doing the right thing so they avoid the conversation or they do not do what needs to be done. We need more education, more conversations and more awareness so employers can do better and then employees and colleagues can do better as well.

My apologies, I was present for the start of the meeting and the presentations but unfortunately - or fortunately - I had to speak in the Dáil. I thank the witnesses for their contributions. As a former lecturer in GMIT, I have experience of some people with disabilities being educated and getting their degrees. The good news is that those people are now in gainful employment. They are still in contact with us and are doing well. One of the things I found about those students was that they were the centre of the class because they were so charged up for the challenge of getting an education. It is important that we nurture that in people with disabilities.

In my view, we need to start with educating our teachers and children about disabilities and how disabilities affect people. We should give people who are in the classroom with people with disabilities a better understanding and there should be more integration to make it a normal thing. What is wrong with employers is that there is a fear, when taking on somebody with a disability, about how that might work out for them or how might it affect other workers in the organisation. There is a fear factor so we need to provide education reassurance.

Are there data on how many people who go into second level education with disabilities gain employment and how many go into third level? Do we have statistics around that or an indication of how successful we are in that regard? When people with disabilities go into work, how many of them get permanent work and how much of it could be deemed tokenism? What else can we do as Oireachtas Members and as a committee to ensure everyone is treated fairly as regards education and employability? That is a lot of questions.

I recognise the work everybody is doing. I want to say hello to Ms Finn from Galway, who is from my own constituency. We have had discussions on the phone. She is a great advocate and is very interesting to talk to. I am delighted she is here today. I will just throw that open to the floor for the witnesses' feedback on my thinking and what we should be doing.

Ms Mary Finn

I thank Deputy Canney. I remember our conversation, which is what started the process of me being here today. There is an awful lot to do. There is a huge opportunity to make the future of work more inclusive. As someone alluded to - I cannot remember who as there has been so much commentary - things in education are changing as the current generation goes through the school system. My daughter refers to herself as Gen Z. She says Gen Z think this or that and they think differently to us. As they progress through school and on in life, they will have a different way of thinking and a different approach. My girls do not see the students in their class who have additional needs as being any different. It is just who they are and is part of them; it is nothing different. The mindset that some of us of a different or older generation might have is not going to be the same as theirs.

On Senator Seery Kearney's question about radical thinking, there are so many things in place already. I do not know if it is necessarily a matter of radical thinking but of using what we have already. There are lots of tools available and I will highlight two in particular. For those who may not be familiar with JAM cards, the JAM stands for "just a minute". They have appeared throughout retail units such as Penneys and our local Eurospar is using them. Retail units using these cards will give extra time and additional supports to customers who might need help finding items in the shop or so on. Employers might also have employees wearing these JAM cards to indicate that when they are asked a question they might need a minute or two to process it. There are tools there.

The other tool I would highlight is the reasonable accommodation passport, which was launched in 2019 in collaboration with IBEC and ICTU. Initially it was designed as a tool for people with a disability in work to communicate what accommodations they might need. In an effort to make that an inclusive tool that is open to everybody, it can be used right throughout the lifetime of every employee. Ms Hayes mentioned that 80% of people acquire their disability after the age of 16, which indicates that most people acquire their disability while in the workforce and during their working life. We need to look at the employee experience from the minute someone starts engaging with an employer as a potential employee in the recruitment process. For example, when applying for jobs, can they submit a video application rather than a written one? Taking that right through to the point where they retire or leave that organisation, we need to look at how that whole employee journey can be supported to make it more inclusive, by using things such as the reasonable accommodation passport if someone has a challenge, a health condition or a disability. That is available to everybody so everyone should know they can use that at any stage if they have a challenge, a mental health challenge or even a temporary physical challenge that they need some support with. When people know their employers are open to talking about these things and are supportive and using tools like that, it makes it much more inclusive.

That is my tuppence worth on those few tools that are there - no radical thinking, only using what is there.

I thank Ms Finn. Does anybody else want to comment on Deputy Canney's issue?

Ms Marian Hennessy

I thank Deputy Canney for his question. I agree with the Deputy on his first point about the supports and resources for teachers to help them to have a better understanding on integration. The day-to-day life of a teacher in school who is working with 25, 29 or 30 students in a class, one or two of whom possibly have learning difficulties or other issues, is challenging. Such teachers have a piece of work to do. They have a curriculum to teach. They have deadlines to meet. Where we can, we should support them by offering them alternative learning methods and resources, and possibly having people with various different abilities coming in and talking to them during training sessions to give them an insight into what works best. I have great respect for the work teachers do. They set out the foundations for their pupils' experiences in life in future. I would like to see as much support as possible for teachers in that way.

The Deputy's second comment was about the fear he feels employers have. He really nailed it when he spoke about how employers feel, for example with regard to how it will affect everybody else if they bring a person with a disability into the workplace. That is where we need to stop and think. Why should there be a big deal about it? Why should there be fear? Everybody is equal. Just because you have a physical disability, a hearing impairment or a visual impairment, why should it be such a big deal?

Every day I come across this with employers. Years ago, you would get an excuse around health and safety. This would be the first barrier that would be put up when you would ask about a job for somebody. Why is there fear? Why are we so afraid of disability? What is so different about this cohort of people from us? Why is it a difference? Why is it a distinction? That is where the nub of the problem is. Maybe this is where, through information and education sessions, there can be assistance. The feedback I get from employers when our Ability Board speaks on our disability awareness training involves them asking what the big deal is. Mr. Kelly nailed it earlier this morning in what he was saying.

There are certain people, particularly people in HR in their 40s, 50s and 60s, who can possibly go through their life, career and college life without coming into contact with a person with a disability. They have said it to me. It is a different experience now with young people. Fear comes into play if people are not exposed to disability and have no experience of it. That is why people, such as Mr. Kelly, need to be talking to employers to change those mindsets and stereotypes, and to look at those blocks.

Deputy Canney mentioned the data baseline. It is probably difficult to get those figures because we are then into the area of disclosure. Many people have fought hard to get where they are and when they go into a job, they may not want to disclose to their employer that they have a disability. That is very much a personal choice. The Deputy is correct that there can be an awful lot of tokenism around giving a person a job. Particularly in some companies, it is a case of ticking off the box for their corporate social responsibility or their quota figures. That is an issue. We weed those employers out because if people are coming from that perspective when they are employing somebody, it will not work out and it will not be worthwhile.

What we need to do is get the message out there that there is no difference. Everybody should be and is equal. I accept we might need something a little bit different. I am sure I learn differently from the Deputy. I am a visual person and I have to write down and use lists, and for somebody else it would be different. We need to get that message out there to companies.

There is a business case here to be made to companies. There is significant spending power among the number of people with disabilities in Ireland. As someone previously mentioned, one in four of us will end up with a disability in our lifetime. We certainly will all come into contact with somebody in our families with a disability throughout our lifetime.

We need to change. We need to get serious about this. I am 30 years in this business and I have yet to see a proper commitment through employment to include everybody. I would like if this committee could do that.

Did Mr. Kelly have his hand up?

Mr. Craig Kelly

Yes. Thank you, Chairman. To return to your earlier question, we are not funded for this and we should be. We should be paid for the work we have been doing. We have been doing unpaid work experience for so long.

On the most recent question, the reason I want to set up a social enterprise is because people with disabilities have been doing unpaid work experience for years and it is time to change that. That is the whole idea of the Ability Board. We are now trained in Easy to Read and we are willing to work with public bodies in tourism and make it something that everybody in Ireland knows about.

Ms Rita Walsh

From my own experience, when my daughter was in sixth class in 2002, the mother of a classmate of hers had a baby with Down's syndrome. Last year, a girl who was four years ahead of her, and who was actually in the same school as her, had a baby with Down's syndrome. Recently, I heard that a classmate of hers had a baby with Down's syndrome. Society has caught up. As Ms Finn said, the children of today are going to school and sitting in classrooms with children with Down's syndrome and all sorts of disabilities. That will go up through life with them.

I believe there is a culture and an environment where people want to do the right thing. They want to be inclusive. It is a question of how you make it happen from there.

For employers, there is fear. There is a fear of getting it wrong. There is a fear of it not working out. In some ways, I can understand that fear. That is why it is so important that the supports are there to allow them to do it right. Also, maybe it would be lovely to start to applaud those who have got it right and to make them the heroes. I refer to the ones who have got it right and made good, comfortable, fair and equal environments for their employees.

Teachers now at least receive some training modules in disability. It obviously can only be limited. A teacher may have received training on aspects of how people with Down's syndrome learn or the challenges they are posed with but that will not provide everything because people with Down's syndrome, like all other people, are a spectrum of people and have a variety of challenges and strengths. If a bank of information could be available to teachers - maybe this is the case - within the Department, a teacher who is teaching a child with a specific disability could go to that bank of information and get more specific information that would help him or her in the classroom and help the other classmates in the school as well.

I thank all of the witnesses for appearing before us today. Their insights are essential for us as a committee.

Education is not only a key public service but a vehicle by which we learn how to be part of a larger society. It should empower us to live independent lives and that should apply to everyone.

We all know there are incredible schools, colleges and training schemes that offer inclusive education for people with disabilities but we are also aware of the very many shortcomings in the system. The insights our guests have provided in their statements illustrate many of those shortcomings.

I thank the Cope Foundation for being here and for everything it does. As a Cork Deputy, I am aware of the incredible work that the foundation does. In particular, I thank Mr. Kelly for sharing his story with us. I am struck by his resilience. He mentioned the difference an election can make in a person's life. He is talking to a room of people who can empathise with that.

I want to ask about the importance of Easy to Read as a tool to make information in business, public service and other areas more accessible. Will Mr. Kelly tell us what Easy to Read is and how businesses and public bodies can get involved?

Ms Hennessy discussed the need for a change to the culture of low expectation for people with additional and more complex impairments. We all know cultural shifts are incredibly important but take a frustratingly long time to change. What specific measures should we be pushing for to help achieve that? To draw on a different example, there has been a lot of recent public discussion of issues around domestic and gender-based violence. We know a big cultural shift is required and how we address that is a big challenge. There are also obvious things that can be done by the Government immediately, such as providing an adequate number of refuge spaces for people fleeing domestic violence. There are two ways of looking at and tackling this. What specific things does Ms Hennessy feel the Government could do now? One example might be a quota in the public service for people with disabilities. It would be great to hear some other examples.

I will focus on Dr. Brady's previous communications to this committee and its members on issues around progressing disability services for young people. For education to be inclusive and accessible, the individual needs of people must be understood and supported by a range of medical and educational professionals. Down Syndrome Ireland's research has highlighted the uncertainty families face and the lack of therapeutic staff. We all hear a lot about that in our constituency offices. Will Dr. Brady provide us with an update on the situation as she sees it since she wrote to the committee last year?

Who wants to take the Deputy's questions? I think the first was for Mr. Kelly.

Ms Marian Hennessy

Mr. Kelly is just on a short break. He is back now. I can go first and Mr. Kelly can come in after me, if that is all right. I thank the Deputy. It is nice to see a Cork neighbour here today. She asked about how we change the low expectations and about cultural shifts. When we talk about supporting people with more significant or complex challenges and needs, perhaps the Government and this committee could think about running a media campaign. We all have the radio on in the car as we are going about our business. Perhaps we could have a television campaign that highlights people's abilities. We all learn from visual examples. A short clip on the television or radio could make a big difference. We do not often see people with more significant and complex abilities speaking on television or radio. That might be a way to move this forward.

Perhaps we could develop an advocacy campaign. We could dedicate a year to promote these issues, through the Government. The Deputy is right about the quotas in the public service. While there are quotas, there must be some way of educating or guiding people on how we can open up opportunities. I know from talking to people in the public service that there is a central recruitment process that must be gone through. While people in local offices are very interested in the whole area of employing somebody, they can be dictated to by policy or decisions that are made elsewhere. We have found that to be the case in the HSE. We have been working through several of the hospitals in Cork. Thankfully, things are opening up at the moment but it has taken almost three years to make progress in that area. We could look at the whole area of quotas and voluntary quotas. It would be important to encourage public services to reach out to the specialist services in their localities.

We should have sound pathways for people from secondary school onward. Some people might not go to third level colleges but would go into post-leaving certificate courses and attend education and training board courses. We could move away from the traditional adult services, specialist services and rehabilitative training that is there. Perhaps we could invest in new and innovative ways to do that. I know there are many such projects throughout the country. Pobal is compiling a report of the findings on the past three years of the Ability programme. That will make interesting reading. We should talk to Ms Walsh and members of her group around the country to get their feedback on what they have done in setting up alternative services.

Dr. Fidelma Brady

I thank the committee for having me as an observer here today. One of the biggest areas we are working on at the moment is the lack of therapy services for our members. As the aim of this meeting is to align education here with the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, this would fit strongly with Article 7, which relates to children with disabilities. The therapy provision in this country is falling so far behind it is almost meaningless and non-existent. The progressing disabilities services programme has been set up and is ongoing but many areas still have not transitioned to the unified approach that was in the plan and, I am sure, still is in the plan. Many areas have not made the transition to unifying the approach. As a result, children are waiting several years on a waiting list for therapy and transitioning. There are very few therapy supports for children transitioning from preschool to primary school. There are very few assessment reports to back that up because the professionals are not there. Teams have not been set up properly and are not running yet.

The regular therapy, for example, for pupils in second level education is so rare it is almost non-existent, even though these children, particularly the teenagers, have very complex language needs. There is a lot of evidence on evidence-based therapy service requirements suggesting therapy should not just be delivered once a week on an ad hoc basis but should be delivered several times a week to the children who need it, in both primary and post-primary schools. This is falling so far below the required level the research shows is necessary that it is meaningless. In some cases, parents are having to opt for private services and employ their own speech and language therapists. That is not an option for everybody. It is vital the unified approach becomes active and is up and running everywhere.

I deal with a number of parents week after week. Yesterday I was with a parent whose child has not seen a therapist of any sort, including an occupational therapist or speech and language therapist, for two and a half years. That parent does not have the option of doing it privately. That case is duplicated throughout the country. As Ms Hayes said earlier, this is a pure indication of where the structures, systems and procedures are impacting on the inclusion and education journey not just of young people and adults who are in further education or employment, which is the main focus of today, but right across the board at primary and post-primary schools. It needs to be addressed.

We in Down Syndrome Ireland have in recent days finished a new report on the facts and figures we have gathered from our members in recent years on the issues with therapies and the progression of the unification model for disability services. I will be happy to share that report with the Deputy and anyone else who would like it as it will contain the most up-to-date figures we have.

It would be great if Dr. Brady could share that not just with me but with the entire committee.

Dr. Fidelma Brady

I absolutely will.

Dr. Brady spoke about the people who she was speaking to yesterday. It is something that I am speaking to families about in west Cork all of the time. They could be waiting two years with no services - no speech and language therapy, occupational therapy or physiotherapy. There is lack of access to special schools on top of that. It is an absolute disgrace and we need to have a heightened awareness of that on this committee.

Dr. Fidelma Brady

Absolutely. I should have said I would like to acknowledge the committee we are meeting with here today, as it has always engaged with us over time. It has always been more than accepting of any issues we have raised with it and has responded to us in a very positive way. I acknowledge that. I thank the committee for allowing me here as an observer who has all of a sudden become a speaker. I thank the committee for having me.

I cut across Mr. Kelly there. Does he want to respond?

Mr. Craig Kelly

Yes, thank you. We can make decisions if we understand them. We want to work with hotels to make easy-read menus. We want to work with healthcare services to make easy-read documents so that people can make decisions about their own healthcare instead of having other people make those big decisions for them. Everything you read these days is very complicated. It does not need to be this complicated. Why cannot it just be written down in a way that everyone understands? It is all about empowering people to be in charge of their own lives. The Government can help with this by supporting the Ability Board to set itself up so it can be ready for this work.

Again, I apologise to Mr. Kelly. I thank him for his contribution.

It was very enjoyable to listen to everyone’s contributions and answers. We come here every Thursday morning and we are both uplifted and depressed, but we always leave the room with determination to do what we need to do for people with disabilities to make sure they take part in whatever they want to take part in.

I thank Mr. Kelly for being so honest in his contribution. I hear those experiences time and again – the put-down and lack of confidence. When people cannot get a job, it is so disempowering. In my past I struggled to get employment, so I have a small idea of what it is like to feel rejected and dejected constantly. I know how hard it is for some people who have a disability and are employed but are not looked after the way they should be. I thank Mr. Kelly for his honestly and his incredible advocacy work.

My first question arises from what Ms Hayes said. I contacted the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment a few months ago and asked what it does to support people with disabilities who are setting up their own companies. What I got back was the mentorship and self-employment programme. I was told there were equal opportunities and they could work with the local enterprise offices, LEOs. We absolutely know about equal opportunities. What I am pushing for is more equitable opportunities and to raise the bar. What more can LEOs do for that person who just happens to have a disability but has the most incredible entrepreneurial spirit, is more than capable of setting up his or her own business and only needs that extra equitable opportunity, as I said?

Entering employment and the fear of losing allowances was mentioned, and my question in this regard goes to everybody and I would like everyone's thoughts on it. On that cost of disability, how much of a change would it be for an individual, and I know it will be big, if there were a disability employment allowance to cover that cost of disability? The report on the cost of disability came out a couple of months ago and we know that cost is colossal. It was a very good report and we need to get working on it. How much of a change would that be for an individual to know there is a disability employment allowance, benefit, or whatever they want to call it, to support someone getting to work and not to lose the supports they have?

There was a conversation about what the public sector can do, and I am always just overwhelmed by the low expectations in the public sector. There is nothing sadder than a State public service not reaching targets, not being adaptable and not working for the employee. What difference would it make if the assistive technology grant was individualised? We know people in public sector do not automatically get that grant and it is down to their boss and a business case, and often they are denied that grant and left to do as they were, with no assistive technology.

Ms Hennessy, Mr. Kelly and Ms Walsh spoke about the transition between school and employment. There is such a cliff edge at the minute with not knowing where to go and what to do. I am a great believer in the education and training board, ETBs. I think they are wonderful. I was on the board Louth and Meath ETB. They are incredible. What more of a role could they take in being the facilitators in that transition between school and employment, whatever the employment would be, and that active role in their society?

How can the current schemes be improved? Mr. Kelly mentioned there are no supports for his disability awareness training. However, private companies can get a grant that covers up to 90% to hire Mr. Kelly and the best to give disability training. How open are those private companies to getting that grant? How good are the wage subsidy scheme and all of those grants that are available to employers? How functional are they? They are there but we are not hitting where we should be. How can we improve those grants and schemes? How can this committee make sure we advocate for positive change to make sure those grants are actively working for the people that they are supposed to be working for?

That is a pile there. I really appreciate our witnesses’ time.

Ms Claire Hayes

I thank the Senator for her questions. I very much appreciate that. In terms of the grants, particularly around assistive technology and awareness training, the assistive tech grants are only for private companies, as the Senator said, so this immediately excludes charities and public bodies. It creates an issue in that sense because the individual who seeks out the grant may not be able to get it. This assistive technology makes a huge difference to a person's experience in work, his or her ability to do the job, the person's impact on his or her team and his or her workload. The fact the grants are only focused on private companies has come up as a bit of an issue with some of the participants I have worked with when we have to look for extra supports and figure out what route to go down and how it works.

The other thing with the assistive tech is that it stays with the company. If a company has an employee and applies for the grant to get the assistive technology, and that employee, after a year or two or however long, moves on to another role, he or she has to go through the whole process again when starting at the new company, rather than bringing that piece of tech with him or her.

I think it was Ms Finn who earlier touched on the reasonable accommodations passport, which goes with the individual.

Discussing a person's reasonable accommodations and what they need within their role is part of creating that inclusive approach to how we do work and education. It should be brought with them rather than being left as they move on.

In terms of the access offices, our course with TU Dublin finished up at the end of last year and was a great success. I mentioned previously that self-employment and entrepreneurship is an area that is rarely explored for people with disabilities. When we talk about employment, we always assume that the person with the disability is the employee rather than the employer. Opening up our conversation and changing how we approach that is so important. I will have to come back to the committee on the LEOs. We are in the middle of doing research on how the course went and our findings in that regard. I will come back to the committee with firm facts on what we can do better when we are supporting a person with a disability on his or her entrepreneurship journey. Mr. Kelly might want to speak on this because he is about to embark on that right now.

A disability employment allowance could have an enormous impact. At the moment, so many of the people that I speak to cannot take the risk of losing support. If they take the risk and are left without it, how do they support themselves? Creating a system that provides real support rather than being just a welfare support would be great. Support that has momentum and movement and that allows people to continue to progress rather than staying stagnant would have a huge impact on a person's well-being, mental health and day-to-day life. When people are looking for work and struggling to find it, and when they keep getting knock-backs, that can have a huge impact on their confidence. One of the things I have seen with the participants on our projects is that from education through to employment, they have had a significant number of knock-backs. They have faced a lack of understanding from their educator or their employer and have felt excluded, set apart or othered in certain situations. We need to encourage people with disabilities to begin to apply for positions but we also need to educate employers, teachers and lecturers so that people with disabilities feel safe in those environments and are not being knocked back but are being included. Social inclusion is so important, as is the feeling of belonging. In that context, a disability employment allowance would have a massive impact. I say that based on the experiences I have seen and the feedback I have received from participants.

I will send an email with more information on the LEOs.

Mr. Craig Kelly

I thank Senator McGreehan for her questions. The wage subsidy scheme needs to be available in the public sector. It is already working in the private sector.

Ms Marian Hennessy

I would not be able to comment on LEOs but I am sure Ms Hayes will follow up on that issue. In terms of the loss of allowances, the disability disregard and what else can be offered, the idea of changing that whole process is a good one. We must look at the real costs for somebody with a disability of going to work and that is very much individualised. People will have different needs and for some, getting to work will cost a lot more than for others. The rigours around earnings and how much a person can earn can be problematic. A lot of people with disabilities are only working part time, for 12-15 hours per week, to try to hold on to their disability allowance and to keep within the income levels in order to hold on to their medical card. The loss of a medical card is something that people really worry about. As we get older, we all need access to medical support and for some people with disabilities, the costs can be considerable the older they get.

I agree with the comments on assistive technology for the public service. That is an excellent idea and could really open things up. The role that the ETBs can play is significant in terms of building bridges and links. The ETB in Cork has come on board with us this year but because of Covid, we have not been able to develop that relationship yet. There are lots of courses, particularly QQI courses at levels 3 and 4, that people can complete and it would be very interesting to develop supported employment programmes for people around the country. It would also be important to enable people to access courses online as well.

Reference was made to the fact that information is available for companies, and that is true, but in my experience while there are HR departments and diversity and inclusion committees in larger companies, the issue for many is time. Who is the person in the company to explore this further, to look up the website and to progress it? We are all in the business so we all understand the language but how many people working in IT companies or manufacturing firms know what the wage subsidy scheme means and what it involves? It can be very confusing and even more so because of the additional wage supports that were available during Covid. The promotion of these schemes is key and I know that pre-Covid the Intreo offices did a great job with employer events and information sessions. There is a role for the Department to make the information more accessible for employers. There can also be quite a bit of administration involved with forms and so on. Maybe companies could have a disability champion, one person dedicated to sourcing that type of material. Maybe we have a role in holding employer conferences to impart this information.

Regarding the transition from second level and from third level, it would be great if people leaving school were given an information pack with signposts of where to go next. Similarly, for third level students, if they have a disability and are going out into the workplace or on to a course, some of them will be very self-conscious of their situation and that can be to the forefront when they are communicating with others. Sometimes people feel very overwhelmed. They can feel very stuck after completing their courses and at a loss as to where to go next. If there was funding available to support people when they finish school or college, through a key worker, a job coach or similar, they would feel more confident making that transition. If we all had support on our first day at work and for the first few days as we settle in, it would make all of our lives a lot better. We have all had the sleepless night the night before starting a new job or three or four days after starting when we worry that we have made the worst decision of our lives because we do not know what anyone is talking about. There are simple solutions out there to help people.

Mr. Craig Kelly

As I said earlier, I am lucky to have the support of Ability@Work and to have had its support to set myself up as self-employed. Most people would not have that support. There should be support for people with disabilities to set themselves up as self-employed.

Ms Rita Walsh

On the transition from secondary school, the role of the ETBs and so on, we have to remember that many people with disabilities, particularly those with Down's syndrome, go through mainstream primary and secondary education.

They do so with the support of resource people, SNAs and so on. I would love for that structure to be acknowledged and the funding made available to support that if people choose to go on to further education. That is essential for it to be successful.

On employment, I would love for recognition to be given to employers who employ people with more complex needs or people who cannot work as many hours. Maybe they can only work four hours or something like that. They too should be applauded and supported.

Ms Mary Finn

I just want to circle back to one or two things relating to assistive technology not following people when they change employer. To give an example, I supported a person in the past who was in need of some assistive technology to be able to do their job. This person was looking for speech-to-text software but it could not be integrated with the custom-designed software that her department was using. When there are custom-designed pieces of software being used to support a particular department, integrating something off-the-shelf is not always easy. When designers are designing custom-built systems for organisations, it would be great if they could think about how other people might need to interact with it and how accessibility features can be included in that.

There are a number of grants that organisations and individuals can apply for. The partial capacity benefit is for people who have been away from work for about six months. An investigation was done in recent years as to whether that grant could be split into an employment support for those in employment as well as a grant for the cohort of people who cannot continue in employment. That way, at some point in the future, people who transition into employment might move from the disability allowance and keep their secondary supports like the travel pass and medical card. I know from working in employability that people want to safeguard those and will restrict their career progression to protect their travel pass or medical card. If they could transition to other grants such as the partial capacity benefit, and if that could be split into an employment support, they could retain a portion of their grants as well as their medical card and travel pass. We know from the report on the cost of disability that the cost of disability to individuals is quite significant. The figures range between €9,000 and €11,000 per person per annum. That is the context. That does not even take into account the difficulties people have in trying to access public transport to get to work and all the other issues they might experience in trying to support and maintain their employment. For future reference, there are grants available but we might need a realignment with regard to how people use and access them.

I thank all the participants for their input today. It has been an informative and uplifting discussion. As Senator McGreehan said, at times it has been very concerning too. That is the harsh reality of the challenges facing people with disabilities and we need to meet those challenges head-on. We need to overcome them with investment and better recruitment so more people can access more services, as Dr. Brady has so rightly said.

Ms Hennessy spoke very passionately about the need for companies to engage in meaningful recruitment campaigns for people with disabilities. She is dead right. Mr. Kelly touched on this as well. When people come in for work placements or internships or anything like that, it should not just be about getting a foot in the door or getting experience. It should also reward people financially. We need to move towards a model where people are rewarded for the very valuable work they do in organisations. Before I was elected as a Deputy two years ago, I worked in a multinational corporation where I was heavily involved in the diversity and inclusion strategy and employer outreach with disability organisations. We had a very successful partnership with Trinity College centre for people with intellectual disabilities and we hired people who made really valuable contributions to our workforce. We need to reach out to more companies in the private sector and engage with them proactively to make sure they are aware of the grants that are available to draw down, such as for disability awareness training. That would allow them to create a truly inclusive and equal culture in which the people they employ are viewed as inclusive and equal. That is the level we need every private company to get to.

Ms Hennessy spoke about the HR barriers and the barriers to information that may be there for HR teams. We need to break those down. We need to make it as simple as possible for companies to engage with this in a meaningful way and the first key step is making sure they can access that training grant and know how to access it.

Both Ms Hayes and Mr. Kelly spoke about the schemes, investments and grants that are available in the private sector and which have not been properly transported into the public sector. I just do not understand the rationale for that. The public sector should be leading on these things. The fact that assistive technology grants or the wage subsidy scheme are not available in the public sector flummoxes me. That is something I am happy to raise within my own party of Fine Gael, within the Government and on the floor of the Dáil because these are very simple changes that could make a massive difference to people in accessing employment. As State entities, we talk about being inclusive employers but there is no point talking that talk unless you are able to walk that walk. Having these simple structures that are already effectively being used in the private sector is just a no-brainer.

Ms Hayes spoke so well about what we need to do to support people in employment. Mr. Kelly is a model of that and shows how people can become entrepreneurs. Easy to Read is going to revolutionise restaurants, cafés and menus right around the country. I commend him and all he is doing because he is not just breaking down barriers and having a huge impact but is also showing to potential future entrepreneurs what can be done. That is hugely important because unless you can see it, it is very hard to be it. Well done to him on everything he is doing and to Ms Hayes on all the support she and her organisation are giving to entrepreneurs like Mr. Kelly, as well as to companies to make those changes.

Ms Finn talked about the importance of disability awareness training in schools, while Ms Hennessy referred to the pressures teachers are already under and how we need to be really careful in how we roll that out. We also need to roll it out elsewhere. I have not been offered disability awareness training in my two years here in the Oireachtas. Maybe that is something we should be looking at rolling out across the Oireachtas. I know Departments do it and perhaps it is offered here but is only done once every five years or something. What can we do to increase the uptake on that? We need an uptick in that in order to effect change. Perhaps it is offered in increments every couple of years. Let us look at how to increase that and how to get more people on it.

I was struck by what Ms Walsh said about everything we learn being something we did not know before today. Anything like that makes you richer.

That is the message I have taken from today. As a committee, we need to spread to organisations we are working with in the public and private sectors and we need to look at that mentality. The two things we can very quickly tackle head-on are engagement with the private sector on that grant - I would love to hear the representatives' views on how we do that in a very meaningful and proactive way - and how we move those provisions of support and incentives available in the private sector to the public sector. Hopefully, the political will is there to do that. Today, we saw there was cross-party support for it and I am certainly determined to see how we can make that happen. I would love to hear the representatives' thoughts on those two measures in particular because by giving people the opportunity to get into the workforce we are helping them to realise their full potential. That is what need to do.

We are under some time constraints. Will each of our witnesses give us one sentence, taking in the points Deputy Higgins raised and the general discussion, before we finish?

Dr. Fidelma Brady

I will make just one point. It will be a little longer than one sentence but I will try to keep it as quick as I can. The focus today has been on employment and further education. Underpinning all third-level education or third-level employment options is the provision of an appropriate second-level experience. I do not think we can just jump across that and all of a sudden hope that employment will work out. There are a couple of aspects to that, which are particularly pertinent in respect of Article 24. For example, the ongoing review of the senior cycle in post-primary school needs to be urgently accelerated and completed without any further delay. For example, in some schools transition year, TY, is still not available for all students. Some schools do not provide a TY course or the leaving certificate applied; they only provide the traditional leaving certificate. Schools must ensure that all these programmes are provided to all students with special education needs.

Another worrying fact came out of a recent survey we conducted of our own members, which is that 75% of those at post-primary school, and young adults, had no career guidance whatsoever. They had no career guidance training or tuition. That severely limits post-school options, be those in employment or further education. Again, disability awareness training is a major factor and teacher training must take that into consideration. We need to prepare these young people adequately at post-primary level and we must come out of the mindset that attendance at a day service is the only or main option available. More supports are needed at post-primary level to manage the transition to adulthood, be that into employment or further education. Unless the supports are in place at post-primary level, we are missing a step and it will be problematic. I again thank the committee.

Mr. Craig Kelly

In future, at some stage, I would be more than happy to give disability awareness training to members of the Government. If they are looking for it, it is there.

Ms Marian Hennessy

I would like to see a provision for annual dedicated funding ring-fenced for supported employment services throughout the country, which would be a standardised service for everybody that reaches everyone, even in rural areas. I would like to see employers being offered incentives to become disability confident in their recruitment practices. We should also look to our chambers of commerce in different areas. They offer fantastic support in the community. Finally, I ask that we address our fragmented service and try to make sure we are offering a best-practice service to everyone.

Ms Rita Walsh

My one message is that I would love to see much work being done on personalised budgets. Quite an amount is already being spent, through school-leavers' funding and so on, on students when they leave secondary school. It is just that students supported by their families cannot have flexibility in how to use that. It is often assigned to a particular day service and, therefore, the power goes from the people. That flexibility would allow people to choose their path and have that money support that pathway and the way it is going. That would be transformative for our students who are leaving school because it can take them where they want to go. At present, they almost have to go where they are told, in many ways. To allow people to buy whatever it is that best fits their chance of having a good life would make a major difference.

Ms Claire Hayes

I will echo everyone's comments. I agree with those final comments. To quickly summarise, active engagement with, and reflection on, our systems and policies and how they are disabling our peers are key. Even if overt discrimination is not happening somewhere, it does not mean inclusion is happening. We need to be proactive and take action. There is no better body than the Government to lead this and to offer all its members disability training behind that.

Ms Mary Finn

I again thank the committee very much for the opportunity to come along and contribute today. It has been very informative listening to everybody's different perspectives. In summary, it has been very enlightening to see where we will go with work in future. There has been a lot of concentration on the transition into work, how people access work, and employment and the work environment becoming more inclusive, but my point is about retention. Once students become employees or jobseekers transitioning into the workforce - we have already referenced that 80% of people who have a disability acquire it in the workplace - retention and vocational rehabilitation support should be made readily available. Strategic priority number 4 in the competitive employment strategy specifically relates to a vocational rehabilitation programme for Ireland. I would love to see something established. A pilot was meant to have been established to run a vocational rehabilitation programme. I would love to see that going forward and to be involved in it. My hope for the future is to see something in place to support employees as they go through their experience in employment.

I sincerely thank Ms Finn, Ms Hayes, Ms Hennessy, Mr. Kelly, Dr. Brady, Ms Walsh and Ms Gorey for their participation. It has been a longer than normal meeting, which shows the depth of knowledge they have brought to the committee. It empowers us to continue to try to advance the cases they have made. I thank them all for their honesty, commitment and the work they do behind the scenes in each of their spheres. Well done. I ask them to keep in contact with us. If there are some issues we discuss from time to time where they believe they have some evidence or information they can give, I ask them to please not be strangers. We will continue to highlight their cases as best we can.

I thank members for their engagement in all aspects and sincerely thank our team for keeping the show on the road.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.29 p.m. until 9 a.m. on Thursday, 17 February 2022.
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