Joint Committee on Disability Matters díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 Mar 2022

Standard of Living and Social Protection: Minister for Social Protection

Chairman

The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss the standard of living and social protection. On behalf of the committee I welcome the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Heather Humphreys, who is accompanied by Mr. Rónán Hession, Ms Veronica O'Brien, Mr. Brian Molloy and Ms Sharon Keane from the Department of Social Protection. The Minister may call on her officials briefly for points of clarification during the meeting when a specific or technical point arises. The officials may clarify such matters for the committee. Any follow-up questions should be put to the Minister because she is the accountable person before the committee.

I am aware a wide range of matters are the subject matter for today's discussion. If necessary, further and more detailed information on certain issues raised may be sent to the committee team for circulation to members. I remind members they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located in the precincts of Leinster House. In this regard, when joining remotely members are asked to confirm they are on the Leinster House campus prior to the meeting. For anybody who is watching online, it should be noted that witnesses are attending remotely due to the unprecedented conditions arising because of Covid-19 and I ask people to bear with us.

The witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise witnesses giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts to note that the constitutional protection afforded to witnesses before the committee may not extend to them. No clear guidance can be given. If witnesses are asked to cease giving evidence on a particular matter they must respect the decision of the committee.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the House or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The Minister may now make her opening remarks.

Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Heather Humphreys)

Good morning. I thank the Chairman and the committee for the invitation to be here today. I feel very strongly about the need to support people with disabilities in their lives and their work. During my time as Minister, I have sought to make sure that the interests of people with disabilities and carers remain a focus of my Department’s priorities.

During the pandemic, and notwithstanding the significant pressures on my Department and the Exchequer, I worked to ensure that those on disability and caring payments were supported. Processing timelines on payments were met, even at a time when my Department was dealing with the unprecedented demands of the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP. In addition, my Department ensured that those who were on disability and caring payments who lost their employment during the pandemic were able to receive their PUP as well as their primary social welfare payment. This helped to ensure that their incomes were protected from the pandemic.

The topic before the committee today is the independent and adequate standard of living and social protection, with a particular focus on the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. Ireland signed the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in 2007 and the Government formally ratified the convention in 2018, with it entering into force on 19 April 2018. Articles with particular relevance to my Department include Article 28, dealing with adequate standard of living and social protection, and Article 27, dealing with work and employment.

With regard to Article 28 and the adequate standard of living and social protection, this year's spending on illness, disability and carers is an estimated €4.9 billion.

This represents 21.1% of my Department’s total expenditure for the year.

Since 2015 there has been a significant increase in the number of people supported under these schemes. The number of people claiming disability allowance has increased by 28% and the cost of the scheme has increased by 41%. The number of people claiming carer’s allowance and carer’s benefit has increased by 42% and the cost of the schemes has increased by 52%. Invalidity pension claimant numbers have increased by over 7% and the cost of the scheme has increased by 17%. Those figures will give members a good idea of the very significant increases in the number of people my Department is supporting under our various disability and carer support payments in recent years. We are now supporting more people than ever before under schemes like carer’s allowance, disability allowance and invalidity pension.

Budget 2022 saw increases to the maximum weekly rate of carer's allowance, carer's benefit, illness benefit, disability allowance, blind pension and invalidity pension by €5, with proportionate increases for people getting a reduced rate. The fuel allowance and the living-alone allowance were also increased as targeted supports aimed at helping those who are most in need.

Since my appointment as Minister for Social Protection, supporting our carers has been a key priority for me. Last year, in my first budget in the Department, I increased the carer’s support grant to €1,850, which represents the highest-ever rate of payment for that grant. In this year’s budget, I made significant changes to the carer’s allowance means test. The capital-savings disregard for the carer’s allowance means assessment is being increased from €20,000 to €50,000, aligning it with that which applies for disability allowance.

For carers who work, I have increased the weekly income disregard from €332.50 to €350 for a single person, and from €665 to €750 for carers with a spouse or partner. These are the first changes that have been made to the carer’s allowance means test in 14 years. The changes will take effect in June and they will mean that thousands of carers currently on a reduced rate will move to a higher payment. In addition, many carers who up to now did not qualify for a payment due to means will now be brought into the carer's allowance system for the first time. I know these changes have been warmly welcomed by the carers' representative groups. Of course, there is still more work to do for our carers. I am committed as part of the decisions we make on the pensions commission report that we will provide a pension for our carers.

Regarding supporting work and employment under Article 27 of the UN convention, I increased the earnings disregard for disability allowance and blind pension by €20 from €120 to €140 per week. Prior to this, the level of the disability allowance disregard had not changed since 2006. This will support people with disabilities to increase their participation in work and will help to ensure that we make work pay.

People with disabilities who are working will also benefit from an increase in the earnings threshold from €350 to €375 before their income is fully assessed for their disability allowance payment. People receiving disability allowance will also see an improvement in the general means disregard as it will increase from €2.50 to €7.60 per week.

I also want to support employers who employ people with disabilities. That is why as part of budget 2022 I increased the rate of wage subsidy scheme for employers by €1 per hour to €6.30 per hour. This is the first time the rate has been increased for many years.

Employers employing a person with a disability for 39 hours per week will receive a payment from the State of €12,776 per annum. This is a significant incentive for employers to offer employment opportunities to people with disabilities.

I understand that the committee is interested in the question of how decisions to grant or refuse disability allowance are taken and is concerned at what is perceived to be a high level of appeals. Decisions on entitlement to social welfare payments are bound by the relevant provisions of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act. This legislation provides for a transparent and fair decision-making process with specified criteria that must be met by applicants and an appeals process for those who are not satisfied with a decision. A number of conditions must be assessed in order to determine a person’s entitlement to long-term disability and caring payments.

Primary among these is the person’s capacity to work or, in the case of carer payments, a person’s requirement for full-time care and attention. In both cases this assessment is performed by qualified doctors employed by the Department and is based on medical reports submitted by the applicant. It is important to note that the Department’s medical assessors do not question the medical diagnosis presented in the medical reports but use the reports to assess the impact of this diagnosis on a person’s capacity to work or their care requirements. In addition to work capacity or care needs a person must also satisfy either the social insurance contribution requirements or the relevant means test. In the case of disability allowance and carer's allowance, the person claiming the payment must be habitually resident in the State.

There is some commentary that most decisions get overturned on appeal, which is not correct. Most decisions are not appealed and the percentage of decisions that are revised or changed on appeal represents about 12% of all decisions by the Department. The data for 2021 indicate that 28,158 claims for disability allowance were determined, of which 13,289 decisions to award were made. A total of 5,575 appeals for disability allowance were processed, which is equivalent to about 20% of all claims decided, or 37% of unsuccessful claims.

Of the appeals received, 643 were allowed by my Department’s deciding officers following receipt of further evidence with an appeal request. It is not uncommon for applicants to submit additional information following a negative claim decision. In such cases even though the information is received as part of an appeal, our deciding officers and medical assessors review those cases to see if the additional information warrants a revised decision. A total of 2,712 were allowed by appeals officers and 42 appeals were withdrawn. Putting all of these numbers together, claims awarded by appeals officers constituted just 10% of all decisions made in 2021.

No process is ever perfect but I believe that these data indicate that the overwhelming majority of people who are entitled to disability allowance secure that entitlement at first decision and that the appeals process provides an effective means of redress for people who are not satisfied with the first decision.

I will now outline my priorities for this year. As set out in the programme for Government, we will use the results of the cost of disability research commissioned by my Department to inform future policy decisions.

This report, produced by Indecon, has recently been received and is now being considered by the national disability inclusion strategy steering group, chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. One of the key findings in this report is that the costs faced by people with disabilities vary considerably depending on the nature of the disability faced by a person. Similarly, a person’s capacity for work varies depending on the nature of the disability. Under the Roadmap for Social Inclusion, my Department has a commitment to develop and consult on a straw man proposal for the restructuring of long-term disability payments to take account of this spectrum of disability and work capacity. I have asked my officials to ensure the straw man proposal takes on board the findings from the cost of disability research.

As for employment-related supports for people with disabilities, I have already set out some of the improvements made over recent budgets. In addition, my Department is reviewing the reasonable accommodation grants fund. Stakeholders will have an opportunity to feed into the review later this month and we look forward to hearing this feedback. In line with the commitment in the programme for Government, the wage subsidy scheme paid to employers who employ people with disabilities will also be reviewed this year to improve the uptake of the scheme. My Department will shortly commence rolling out an early engagement approach with young people aged between 18 and 22 years who are in receipt of disability allowance. This was a key recommendation in the Make Work Pay report and a commitment in Ireland’s recent submission on the UN convention. The early engagement approach will see the public employment service offer support at the earliest opportunity to assist young jobseekers with disabilities to achieve their employment goals. Consultation with the sector is ongoing in advance of this approach being rolled out. It is important to note a key principle agreed with the sector is that the approach is voluntary.

I am fully committed to the implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The decisions in recent budgets and the priorities for this year show this remains a priority for me and for the Government. Importantly, I emphasise that I and my Department, together with my Government colleagues, are committed to continuing our long-standing practice of consultation and close engagement with stakeholder and representative groups for carers and people with disabilities.

As a final point, I reiterate to members that the Department of Social Protection is here to help people. Members saw that during the pandemic in the speed with which supports such as the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, were provided to people. They are seeing it again now with the supports we are putting in place to help Ukrainian citizens arriving into the country. From my experience both when I was outside the Department as a Deputy and now that I am in the Department as Minister, I have always found the staff in the local social welfare offices to be extremely helpful and courteous. We cannot always do everything we want to do or solve every problem but we will certainly always try our best.

One of the best examples I can give the committee is Catherine’s Law, which I introduced last year. There was a young girl, Catherine Gallagher, who was going to lose her disability allowance payment because she was taking up a PhD scholarship. I certainly did not want to see that happen. It was brought to our attention and I am glad we were able to amend regulations to address it. I know Catherine is getting on well with her scholarship because she texted me last week. Just last week I signed regulations to extend those provisions to persons in receipt of the blind pension. Not every problem can be solved like that, but where there are small injustices in the system and if we are able to fix them, we will always try our best. I wanted to put that on the record and record my thanks to the staff of the Department of Social Protection in the local offices throughout the country. As we meet this morning, they are doing an outstanding job in the different Intreo offices to deal with the Ukrainians who are coming into this country. I was out in Dublin Airport and saw at first hand the work staff are doing there. It is difficult work and it is emotional. They are going beyond the call of duty, as they always have done, to help people at a time of need.

I thank members for their time. I am happy to hear their contributions and answer any questions they may have.

Chairman

I thank the Minister very much. Without further ado we will go to members. Senator Seery Kearney is first.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I thank the Chairman. I thank the Minister very much. Nobody could doubt her absolute passion for her role and the commitment and drive she has, which she has displayed in this role and previous ministerial roles. She brings them to this role in particular. I am very grateful she and her Department are so open to us when we bring instances and discuss situations with her. I appreciate that very much and it is not just because we are party colleagues. Across the Houses, people find her Department incredibly accessible with respect to issues and assistance, where they are required. We are in an unprecedented time when we have people coming into the country fleeing war, which is horrific. I congratulate the Minister on the work done in the past couple of weeks. She was at the forefront and her Department was one of the first to ensure supports.

We have had harrowing meetings at this committee, and none more so than when we had women with disabilities come in and talk about their experiences. We recognise persons with disabilities are much more likely to be caught in poverty and that they have a lower likelihood of accessing the workplace. As a country, our statistics on the latter are appallingly low. We have also heard of the dependence people with disabilities, especially women with disabilities, have at times, including having to stay in relationships for financial reasons, even where those relationships are abusive. We have heard from the Minister of State, Deputy Burke, about housing and accessibility in those terms and I am confident we are moving in the right direction. However, it is very difficult for those who are caught in the financial implications of disability and the lack of opportunity.

I wish to discuss the payment rate of the disability allowance itself. People are paid €208 per week. Recently, we saw in the report commissioned by her predecessor at the Department that the cost of disability is €226 per week. Thus, the disability allowance does not even meet the cost of disability and it is also well below the minimum wage. We have people with acknowledged disabilities who cannot, in some instances, get out to work, yet they do not even obtain the minimum wage from the State. I would value hearing from the Minister about that. That, in and of itself, is one aspect.

There is the means-testing element. We have heard just how difficult that is. We had wonderful contributors to this committee, including women who have opportunities in the arts. We had one contributor who sang her contribution. She was a powerful and very talented woman. However, they talked about being afraid to take commissions because of the means-testing element and affecting their disability allowance. As I said, in some instances this element obliges people to stay in abusive relationships. There is also the fact that for certain allowances someone with a disability that is very clearly a lifelong one must prove that disability annually. That is demeaning because disabilities do not get fixed. There is a medical model somewhere at the back of that means testing that is objectionable to people who must comply and whose lives are ruled by it.

I implore us to review that and to free up the lives of both women, in particular, and men with disabilities who find that very difficult. They are disincentivised to take work because of the implications of the means test and the requirement to reapply every year.

I thank the Minister for her very detailed contribution regarding the applications and appeals. Figures have previously been presented to the committee that suggest 63.6% of refusals are overturned on appeal. Is there anything we can do to make that better?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Senator covered a number of issues relating to the costs of disability. The Indecon report on that subject shows there are other factors too that we need to consider in the context of how we support people with disabilities. It is not just the social welfare payment that we need to count; there are other issues and there are other areas where supports are available. Some areas where we may need to increase supports include housing, equipment, aids and appliances, mobility, transport, communications, medicines, care and assisted services and additional living expenses. They are the issues being examined.

I appreciate the Senator was referring to the costs of disability vis-à-vis the gap in respect of the payment, but we must take into consideration all the other supports that are provided in addition. In this year’s budget, as she will be aware, I made some specific changes regarding the disability allowance and the wage subsidy scheme, such as the €5 increase in the maximum weekly rate of the disability allowance, with proportionate increases for people receiving a reduced rate and an increase of €25 in the earnings threshold above which means are fully assessed in order that persons can earn up to €375 per week before they will lose all their entitlements from the disability allowance and the blind pension. There was also an increase in the general weekly means disregard entry point for the disability allowance from €2.50 to €7.60, a considerable increase. The effect of this measure will be to increase the weekly rate of payment by up to €5 per week for disability allowance recipients who have no means. As for the wage subsidy scheme based subsidy paid to employers that employ people with a disability, there was an increase from €5.30 to €6.30 per hour, effective since January.

Expenditure on the illness, disability and the carer's payment is estimated to amount to €4.9 billion in 2022, representing 21.1% of the total departmental expenditure. It accounts for approximately 27.9% of gross Vote expenditure and 13.6% of total Social Insurance Fund expenditure. A Christmas bonus was paid to certain long-term social welfare recipients in 2021, including all recipients of the carer's payment, the disability allowance, the blind pension, the invalidity pension and the domiciliary care allowance, at a cost of €74 million. Moreover, the number of people with disabilities whom we pay, and the sums we pay them, increases every year, which shows the Government is committed to provide supports for people with disabilities. The Senator spoke about the retention of the free travel pass for five years for people with a long-term disability who are in receipt of the disability allowance to allow them to take up employment. This too is intended to bridge the gap between the costs of disability and the supports we are providing.

In addition, the Department of Health has introduced a process that enables persons in receipt of the disability allowance payment to have a greater earnings capacity while retaining their medical card. Indeed, the medical card earnings disregard increased from €120 to €427 per week. These are just some of the other measures being taken outside of my Department to support people with disabilities. What is most important is that they are able to get back into work because that in itself will improve their income and prospects and that is what I am especially focused on. We do that through a number of programmes, such as the employability programme, jobs clubs or the ability programme. There are many programmes designed to help people with disabilities, particularly young people, to transition into work. We are putting all these structures in place to encourage them to do that.

The Senator mentioned difficulties faced by women in particular. We introduced the rent supplement for victims of domestic violence, for which there is no means test for the first three months given that, as we all know, it is a very difficult decision for a woman to leave the family home. Of course, it is not always a woman but in the majority of cases it is. We wanted to help them by not requiring them to go through a means test to get the rent supplement to help them move out in what can often be very difficult circumstances. They will then have the option of applying for the housing assistance payment, HAP, which is a long-term support, after six months. That has been very positively received. A total of 200 women are on the scheme already, that is, 200 women who were enabled to leave their homes, in what must have been very difficult circumstances, and find alternative accommodation.

I hope I have covered all the questions the Senator asked.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

It was a comprehensive response but I have one further question. When we come to the budget discussions this year, could we rename the invalidity pension, given many of those who are beneficiaries of it find it to be a very offensive term?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The invalidity pension is paid to people who are permanently incapable of work because of illness or disability. It is based on the claimant's social insurance contributions and medical conditions and is not means tested. Increases are payable for qualified adults and children. People in receipt of the invalidity pension are transferred to the contributory State pension when they reach the pensionable age.

I am aware many persons with a long-term illness or disability find the name derogatory and inappropriate. Although some may associate the term "pension" with older age, it is commonly associated with long-term payments throughout the European Union for the contingencies of invalidity or old age. The use of the term "invalidity" reflects the terminology used in the relevant EU directive. The rules for the co-ordination of invalidity benefits in the EU are provided in EC Regulation No. 883 of 2004 and invalidity benefits are a branch of social security co-ordinated under this regulation. The term "invalidity pension", therefore, is an instantly recognised term in respect of its purpose and what it covers in both an EU and domestic context. Invalidity benefits and pensions are generally provided where an insured person suffers incapacity for work leading to permanent invalidity. It is difficult to find a term that will continue to be acceptable to everyone over the passage of time. While I will certainly look into the matter, there seem to be very good reasons for calling it by that name.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.18 a.m. and resumed in public session at 10.21 a.m.

Deputy Pauline Tully

The consistent message we hear from witnesses who come before us relates to the cost of disability. We have one of the highest levels of people with disabilities at risk of poverty and social exclusion. Many live in consistent poverty and deprivation. The Minister referenced the Indecon report her Department had carried out. What measures are being taken to address the findings of that report? More specifically, what action is being taken to support disabled people who are struggling with the cost of living? The Minister talked about the increases provided in budget 2022. Those increases are welcome but inflation had overtaken them long before the current crisis even descended upon us. Disabled people needs supports immediately.

We also have one of the highest levels of unemployment in Europe among our disabled people. Everything should be done to encourage employment, but many people are reluctant to take up work due to fear of the loss of their core payment and secondary benefits. We need to look at that. The Minister referenced that the disregard for disability allowance and blind pension increased by €20 to €140, but €140 is not sufficient, along with the pension, to live on. Many people are also fearful of losing their medical cards. Will the Minister look at that again. Will she talk to the people who are self-employed, who want to establish their own businesses, who are entrepreneurs and who do not feel the supports are there? The back-to-work schemes are not tailored to the person; they are set at a number of years rather than around what the person needs and how long he or she needs to get back into work. Artists and musicians work is often on a commission basis. These people afraid to take up commissions because they will lose their core payment of the blind pension or the disability payment. Could that be structured differently in order that it might be looked at on a yearly basis instead of a weekly or monthly basis?

The Minister also talked about the number of claims for disability allowance that were refused. There were more than 28,000 claims made in 2021 and only 13,000 of them were awarded. I would be concerned about that. Many of them are not appealed. That is because people may not know how to lodge appeals. We need to ensure that the mechanism for making the application in the first place is easy to read and is structured, or that the supports are put in place for disabled people to make applications and that they are aware that they can appeal it and that they know how to do that. Another big issue we come across is the lack of knowledge regarding entitlements and how to apply in respect of the different schemes or supports that are there.

Senator Seery Kearney mentioned the means-tested payment and the effect it has on disabled women. Disabled women came before us and stated that the prevalence of domestic violence against disabled women is higher than against women generally. Often, the reason they do not leave is the lack of independence because they are means tested against their partner's income and therefore do not have a payment of their own. Could this be revised in order that if a person is receiving a disability payment or blind pension that the spouse's income could be looked at to be taxed at a higher rate. Could it be done in such a way that the disabled person would still be able to claim their own payment and rely on that? When people get to pensionable age, many women want their own money and sometimes they are not allowed to have their it because their partners are still working and earning, and their pensions are means tested against that.

The final point I want to make relates to the time it takes to process the carer's allowance. It takes upward of four months. That is an inordinate length of time. Could that be looked at as well in order to make matters easier?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

When carer’s allowance is being assessed and the application comes in, the figures I have indicate that it takes an average of five weeks. Those figures have come down considerably over the past number of years. In 2021, applications were turned around on an average of five weeks. I will go through the figures later on the appeals but the fact is that many of the applications fail in the first instance because the medical evidence is not correct. The Deputy knows this from dealing with her constituents, the same as I do, that the medical evidence might not always be complete but the form goes in. Then when further medical evidence is provided the application is often successful. We have also simplified the form for applying for disability allowance. If people are unsure about appeals, the Citizens Information Board is there to give people advice on what their entitlements are. It provides an excellent service and is available and has a very good website. We use it a great deal in our constituency office as no doubt the Deputy does also. We often find that people come into our constituency offices to see why their application was not successful. In the majority of cases where applications are unsuccessful, it is because the medical information has not been provided. That is obviously needed to make the assessment.

It is fair to say that we have done a great deal of work to support people with disabilities. There is always more to be done, and that is what we continue to focus on. The effort to help people with disabilities is required across a number of Departments, whether it is in the context of housing, transport, education, health or whatever. I have outlined what I have done in the Department of Social Protection. We have done a great deal in a very short period. I have reformed the carer’s allowance means test by significantly increasing the amount of savings and weekly earnings a carer can have. I am the first Minister in 14 years to do anything on the carer’s means test. I have increased the rate of the wage subsidy scheme in the budget. That is a very important support to encourage employers to hire people with disabilities. I do not think the rate has been touched for more than a decade.

I have also made changes to the income disregards for disability allowance in the budget. Last year, when there were doubts over whether the local ability providers would continue to be funded because the European funding had run out, I made sure we found the funding to keep that programme going. I met with Des Henry and the ability providers throughout the country. Indeed all the members know the great work that they do. During the pandemic we made sure that people on carer’s or disability payments who lost their part-time work, got the pandemic unemployment payment. That meant they were able to get two social welfare payments to help them. When a clear injustice was brought to my attention regarding PhD students on disability allowance as I mentioned earlier, I acted in a matter of days and introduced Catherine’s law. As I said, we have now extended that to those in receipt of the blind pension.

As stated earlier, the number of people receiving payments such as disability allowance, carer's allowance and invalidity has increased by approximately 40% since 2015. This means that my Department is now helping and supporting more people through those payments than ever before. The total spending on our various disability supports this year will be close to €5 billion. I would, of course, like to do more.

Every Minister would like to do more but I must work within the realities of government and finite resources. We cannot do everything we want to do at once. I assure members that supporting people with disabilities and carers will be a priority for me once again in this year's budget. I am absolutely committed to working with the Minister of State, Deputy Anne Rabbitte, and my colleagues across the Government to improve supports for people with disabilities. A lot of work is being done.

The Deputy asked me what are we doing to tackle poverty among people with disabilities. The 2020 at risk of poverty or social exclusion rate for people with disabilities is 35.9%, which is a decrease from the 2019 rate of 37.5%. This year's budget package for people with disabilities specifically included measures that will help to address poverty among people with disabilities. These included a €5 increase in the maximum weekly rate of disability allowance, blind pension, carer's allowance, carer's benefit, illness benefit and invalidity pension, with proportionate increases for people getting a reduced rate; an increase in the rates for a qualified child under and over 12 years of age; an increase in the living alone allowance from €20 to €22 a week, thus benefiting people in receipt of the disability allowance or invalidity pension and who live alone; and an increase in the fuel allowance to €33 per week, benefiting people in receipt of the disability allowance or invalidity pension who qualify for the payment. For those people who are working or in a position to take up work, the measures include an increase of €25 per week in the upper earnings disregard for the disability allowance and the blind pension, from €350 to €375; an increase in the general weekly means disregard for the disability allowance from €2.50 to €7.60 per week, resulting in an increase of up to €5.10 per week where a person on disability has means; an extension of access to support grants for jobseekers with disabilities through employability contractors; and an increase in the rate of the wage subsidy scheme available for private sector employers by one hour to €6.30 per hour, which is a significant increase equivalent to 60% of the national minimum wage. We have, therefore, provided significant supports to help people with disabilities to get work and we incentivise employers to take on people with disabilities.

The Deputy mentioned the scheme for artists. As she knows, the arts and culture task force recommended the introduction of a pilot basic income scheme for artists. This commitment was reflected in the national economy recovery plan. Budget 2022 included an announcement of €25 million for a pilot basic income guarantee scheme for artists. My colleague, the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, has lead responsibility for the initiative. The Minister and her Department are progressing the matter. Any issues regarding the interaction between the new pilot payment and existing payments by my Department, such as the disability allowance, will be addressed in due course.

We have done considerable work to improve the situation for people who provide care and those who are on disability payments. More can always be done and we will keep all these matters under review.

On claims, significant improvements in new claim decision-making have been achieved over recent years for the carer’s allowance and carer’s benefit. This has been maintained by my Department throughout the period of the pandemic. The average time to award a carer's allowance in 2021 is four weeks compared with seven weeks in 2020 and 14 weeks in 2019. The average time to award carer's benefit in 2021 is four weeks compared with five weeks in 2020 and 12 weeks in 2019. Those figures have improved, especially considering the huge volume of work processed by the staff in the Department of Social Protection during 2020 and 2021. Many millions of transactions were processed to ensure people received the pandemic unemployment payment. To achieve that level of output and make these improvements in timeframes was quite something given the circumstances in which staff had to work.

I believe I have covered most of the issues raised by the Deputy.

Deputy Pauline Tully

The Minister referred to the roadmap for social inclusion and how it commits to reduce the at risk of poverty and social exclusion rate for people with disabilities. However, the rate is still going to be 22.7% in 2030, which is almost double the general average at risk of poverty rate in 2020. I welcome everything that is being done to support people with disabilities. As the Minister said, a lot more needs to be done. We need to seriously address the cost of disability to people with disabilities and get them out of poverty and deprivation because many of them are living hand to mouth and depend on charity to get by.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

My Department commissioned the Indecon cost of disability report, which is being looked at by a committee chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. There are other areas that we must consider when it comes to the cost of disability, including housing, transport and health. The committee in question is also considering these matters. Significant work is taking place and I will work closely with my Minister of State in that respect.

Indecon prepared a comprehensive report. A basic standard income for all people with a disability is unlikely to properly address the costs incurred by those most severely limited by their disability. We all recognise that resources are finite but we want to ensure that they are targeted at the people who need them most. On the one hand, we have people who have severe and profound disabilities and, on the other hand, we have people who have much less disability. We need to target supports at people who are profoundly disabled and need the most support. The one-size-fits-all approach is not fit for purpose. That has been made very clear in the report. The committee will consider many of these issues and produce recommendations following consideration of the Indecon report.

Deputy Holly Cairns

I am glad the Minister is here because it is abundantly clear that there is a huge disconnect between what the Department is doing and what it needs to do for people with disabilities to enable them to realise their rights.

Disability, employment and social protection are very complex areas and their interactions can either empower or disadvantage people. The approach taken by this Government and previous Governments has not worked. We have one of the highest rates of poverty and social exclusion in the EU for people with disabilities, at 38.1%, while, at the same time, we have the lowest employment rate for people with disabilities, at 32.3%. The system needs flexibility to help people work and receive State payments instead of sharp cliff edges, which can make those working less well-off. Those who have no choice other than the carer's allowance and disability allowance need a guaranteed standard of living. We do not have that. The disability allowance is currently €208. This compares with the pandemic unemployment payment benchmark of €350 for the cost of living. This disparity is not an exercise in comparing figures. It is the lived reality of many disabled people and carers in Ireland.

We know there is a significant added cost to having a disability. The Minister and her Department know that. In fact, everybody knows that, yet the disability allowance is €208 per week. Underlying all of this is the absence of a rights-based approach and a medicalised model of disability. There is little consideration given to the individual and insufficient flexibility to enable independent living.

I was left speechless when the Minister spoke about the ratification of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in 2018 because we were the last country to do so and we did it ten years too late. In addition, we still have not ratified the optional protocol of the UN convention. As such, it is not something to reel off almost as a boast.

Of major concern to this committee is the fact that more applications for the disability allowance are refused than accepted initially but then, on appeal, almost two thirds are granted. Again, the Minister reeled off those figures as if the Department should be proud of them.

That demonstrates a very obviously overly restrictive approach to the application process. In response to Deputy Tully it was said that consistently the medical information part was the problem. What is the Department doing to make the form easier for people to fill out? It is unacceptable that more than half of the applications are refused, and then, on appeal, almost two thirds are granted. That does not make any sense. How is the Department not looking at this and asking, "How do we make sure this does not happen anymore?", instead of looking at it and saying, "Well, people are not filling out their medical information correctly"? What is the Department doing to address that situation?

There is also a significant issue with the disability allowance around the lack of flexibility. Last week, Disabled Women Ireland talked about how many women who are disabled in part-time or temporary employment are fearful that additional work, such as covering a colleague's sick leave or in the case of artists accepting a commission, for example, results in them crossing restrictive thresholds that result in withdrawal of their supports. This is the opposite of a rights-based approach. We need a system that can holistically consider individuals and have flexibility to allow them to temporarily increase their income without affecting their payments. As we said, we are aware that there is an added cost to having a disability and, therefore, the €208 payment is really less than the bare minimum. Any additional work should not affect that very small and inadequate payment. On that, what is the Minister's view on raising the threshold of earnings disregard for the disability allowance by €20?

The social model of disability understands that society creates the disability. Our systems and our buildings are the barriers. The density and complexity of the social protection system is disabling people. With digital literacy issues, access to IT equipment means that online platforms can be accessible, while, at the same time, paper applications can be difficult to access. All social protection forms should be available in plain English and be consistent. For example, the enhanced illness benefit form online is much simpler than the paper version. I am sure I am not the only person who has encountered this. Forms such as those for illness benefit and the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance are not available for download. These are obvious barriers, which the Minister and the Department are aware of, but there are also very easy solutions. Will she commit to all forms being available in plain English and online?

The pandemic highlighted issues such as digital poverty. Will she seek to update the forms for the household benefits package and the telephone support loans to include support for Internet services, broadband, and hardware such as laptops and tablets, as soon as possible?

Inclusion Ireland has suggested the recruitment of job coaches for Intreo offices to provide on-the-job support to enable those with high support needs to obtain and maintain employment. Their assessment is that such supports are not currently in place. What is the Minister's view on such an approach?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I thank the Deputy for her comments but I do not agree with most of them. She has selectively picked out everything she could and tried to point out that it is wrong. I am very proud of what I have done in this Department since I came here just one and a half years ago. In our first budget for 2021, I increased the carer's support grand to the highest level ever of €1,850. That was paid in June to all carers. This year, in 2022, which is the second budget that I have headed up in the Department, I have reformed the carer's allowance means test in respect of the capital disregard. The disregard went from €20,000 to €50,000. This is the first time it had been changed in years. The weekly income went up to €350 per week up for a single person, and €750 per week for a couple. That kicks in during June. This means that a person could have €50,000 in the bank, each person could be earning €350 per week and they would still get the carer's allowance of up to €224 per week. When we make our decision on the pensions commission report, it is a priority for me to provide a pension for carers. That is just one issue.

On the medical information, it is the doctor who fills that in. We are not asking the applicant to fill it. We have found that the main reason an application is turned down is the medical information has not been provided. Then, most people go back to the doctor, get clarification, and then it is processed again. I have seen this in my constituency office and I am sure the Deputy has seen it in hers too. When the correct medical information goes in, the application can be approved. A decision cannot be made on an application, however, if one does not have the information. Again, it the medic who completes that, not the applicant. We have also simplified the application form to make it easier for people to complete.

We are not in the business of putting barriers in front of people accessing supports. Just to be clear, we are here to help people and we have done that through the pandemic with almost €9 billion worth of supports. For the Deputy to say that we are trying to put obstacles in the way of people getting their payments, their entitlements or their supports is absolutely wrong and I can stand over that as I sit here and talk about staff in social protection. They are there to help. I have met them. I was in Sligo where there are more than 600 staff employed. I met with the staff and each one of them is there to help people. That is what they do and that is what we are here to do also to make sure that people get the support they need, when they need it, especially people with disabilities.

I will give the Deputy some information on the appeals that she mentioned. There were 28,158 decisions made. Of those,13,289 were granted with 10,500 granted on the first attempt and processed straight away. There were 5,575 appeals out of the 28,000, and 2,712 of those were allowed. Some people do not qualify for the disability allowance, for whatever reason. The terms and conditions are clearly set out. We have changed some of the conditions, and we will continue to look at them to see what we can do. We must, however, put things into perspective here. We have limited resources. We continue to review all of these issues coming up to the budget and I will continue to do that. I will also continue, with my officials, to engage with the disability sector, which I have done in the past, and I will continue to do so in the future.

The Deputy referred to the €208 payment. It is the basic payment but she is not including the household benefits. Many of them also get the fuel allowance, others get the free travel, and of course there is the medical card. There are a number of other supports out there, but we want to do more and we will continue to do more.

I accept the EUROSTAT estimates. We have targets to reduce this in the roadmap for social inclusion and we will continue to work on all of those issues, and do everything we can to support people with disabilities. The most important thing I want is to try to help people who can go back to work to do so. This empowers them and gives them an income. It gives people an independence, which is what we want to provide. There is huge support available for employers who take on people with disabilities. I want to highlight this more. Perhaps this committee could also use the Deputy's good offices to tell people what is available, help them take up those supports, and encourage them to work through the EmployAbility Service. I have met with people who work in that service and the EmployAbility Service sometimes provides that connection between the employer and the employee. I heard of a particular case where an employee could not going to work on a Friday because he had to attend an addiction service. He did not know how he was going to tell his employer, and he was not going to go back to work because of that. He was able to go to somebody within the EmployAbility Service who was able to have that conversation and sort out that problem. Every Friday morning thereafter he got whatever number of hours he needed to attend the addiction service. These are the things we need to do. We need to work together to alleviate some of these problems, to help people and to empower them to get back to work.

I believe I have addressed most of the Deputy's issues.

Deputy Holly Cairns

If I could come back very briefly Chairman.

Chairman

Go ahead.

Deputy Holly Cairns

I wish to be clear to the Minister that obviously I am not putting any blame on the staff in offices and I am not putting any blame on doctors filling out the forms; I am just highlighting that the system is not working. It is obviously a dysfunctional system or an overly restrictive system if more than half of the people who apply are refused and then, on appeal, almost two thirds are granted. If it is an issue of doctors filling out the forms, what needs to be done to make that more accessible for people? How is it that so many of these applications are refused and then granted? The Minister spoke about the benefits being available to people but from the report we know that the added cost of having a disability is €9,000 to €12,000 annually. That is obviously a bare minimum and it very much depends on the disability and on other circumstances. While there is a fuel allowance and other different supports, they are just not enough. The Minister can tell us all day that the system is not a barrier for people but it is completely meaningless when we have the highest rates of poverty in the EU for people with disabilities at 38.1%

It is not that I want to come in here pointing fingers at the Minister and placing blame. I am trying to highlight the reality of the situation and what people are experiencing on the ground in order that the Department can try to work to improve that, which I ask it to do, please. There is a blatant problem with the application system when that is the reality of the number of appeals and the number of applications granted after appeal and when we have the highest rate of poverty among people with disabilities in the EU.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I think there is confusion over the figures. Some 28,150 decisions were made. As I said, 13,000 of those were granted. Some 2,700 appeals were allowed by the appeals office, that is, 10% of the overall number of decisions were agreed in the appeals office. Some people do not meet the medical conditions of the scheme set out in the Act. We in the Department must have checks on any scheme we roll out. We must have criteria with which people must comply. Some people just do not meet the criteria. That is the reality, unfortunately. They can appeal. Of the 28,150 decisions, there were 5,575 appeals. Of those appeals, 2,712 were granted. Those are the facts. Some 80% of awarded claims were given by the Department of Social Protection and 20% were given by the appeals office. Just 10% of decisions made were claims granted by the appeals office. I wanted to clarify that.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I am coming and going because I was in the Chamber for oral questions. This is one of the biggest issues I, like all Deputies and Senators, face in my clinics. A response to a parliamentary question I tabled states that at present there are more than 400 family carers who are over 80 years of age. I have concerns about that because I do not know if it is sustainable. I understand the Minister's commitment. I have worked with many people on this. I will outline the way I see the system in general, having dealt with the people I deal with in my offices. I refer to people with a disability or elderly people in hospital settings. As the Minister will know, it is very hard to get respite care and so on. When they come home, I tell the family member caring for the person, "You may apply for a carer's payment but you will have to do what you do every day." That is fine. I sit down and go through everything with them. Most people do it themselves. They are more than capable of doing so. I see a lot of refusals, however. I urge those people to resubmit their applications because they are doing the work of caring for that person with a disability. That needs to be addressed. I feel that the system is broken in general. This is not within just the Minister's remit. I am aware of the funding she has put in and I welcome it. I brought this up with her the other day.

I will outline to the Minister one issue, however. I work with people with disabilities on housing adaptation grants. I find they are so costly now that the people who want them cannot afford them. Is there any way people claiming carer's payments or people with disabilities could get extra help with those grants? I know one lady who badly needs a bathroom adaptation grant but who cannot make up the difference. I find that that is becoming a huge issue in society. People are no longer getting the grants. A lot of funding has been given to local authorities in the past two years. There should be some lenience in respect of the grants, particularly for people with disabilities or people who are elderly and who need them. They are means-tested and must pay a certain amount. All the Departments need to look at that.

Is there anything we can do to help carers? Is there any way we could look at widening the list of people with long-term illnesses, for example, who are eligible? Are there any grants in that regard? Can we look at free medication? One of the biggest issues I have - it constantly comes into my office - is VAT on incontinence products. A significant number of people have to buy them but cannot afford them. A significant number of people ring me telling me they simply cannot afford those products. We need to address these things. That seems to be where we are falling down. It is the little things that could make the difference.

My sister works seven days a week as a carer and loves it. If she were in a full-time job, she would be on three times the money she is on, but she loves her job. She gets that from my mother. People are very appreciative of what they get, but the reality is that carer's benefit and carer's allowance are there to keep people in their homes in order that they are not in respite or hospital settings that will not be able to cater for them, nursing homes or other such settings. Overall, there seems to be a broken system that needs to be addressed.

In 2021 I tabled a parliamentary question about carer's allowance. The Minister replied that, in 2021, the number of applications received was 312, the number of applications cleared was 374 and the number of applications refused was 150. I tabled a similar question previous to that one. I do not know whether half of them are appeals. I do not know what happened in the system. I deal with the carer's allowance regularly. I can only say that the staff on the other line are absolutely put to the pin of their collar with the work they do. They have always been most kind and gracious on the phone. Truthfully, though, the biggest issue is that they keep requesting further information, further information and further information. It might not be a doctor's letter. It could be that a signature was wrong and that the applicant might have to send it back such that the application is in the system for weeks and weeks. A date of birth could be left out. It could be the personal public service, PPS, number. There might be one digit wrong. Is there any way we could consider phone calls telling people what is wrong and asking them to fill out and send in the required documentation? Instead, the whole application comes back and has to be redone. Payments are made from the time of application. Appeals may be made within 21 days. You get your full money back once you get your carer's allowance. I mean that. They are very good with that. The social welfare team in my area, Carlow, is excellent if people are waiting on payments or if there are any disability payments to be made.

We need to look at the bigger picture. I know that the Minister is dedicated to that. It seems that people with disabilities are living longer, which is great, but I do not know if the system is catering for that at present. Again, I am aware of the hard work the Minister is doing. She might come back to me with the answers to some of those questions. I apologise for having been late. I do not know if any of those questions have been asked already.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Department provides carer's allowance, which is a basic income. We do not pay people for the job they do because we could not do that. The purpose of this social protection payment is to give people a basic income for the work they do while they are off other work. There is carer's benefit and carer's allowance. Deputy Murnane O'Connor went into a number of issues, including free medication and the costs incurred in caring for somebody. Those are wider issues that fall under the Department of Health's remit. The Minister for Health is committed to establishing a commission to examine care and supports in the context of older people, in accordance with the programme for Government. I know, Deputy Murnane O'Connor knows and the other Deputies here all know that there are carers who spend a huge amount of their time caring. We really could not pay them for the work they do. The role of the Department of Social Protection is to provide people with a basic income. This discussion has been knocking around for a long time. I suggested to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development to sit down and to liaise with the disability committee to look at this conundrum of how to pay carers for the work they do. Again, some carers have a huge amount of work to do and, as we well know, there are carers whose task is a lot lighter.

It is like the cost of disability report and we must target those who are most severely affected, whether it is through disability or the amount of work they are doing as a carer. It is a discussion we must have and I have said it before. I certainly welcome any moves the committees might make in looking at this in the round in order to find a solution. I know people have said money from the fair deal scheme could be paid to somebody in the home instead of a nursing home and such people may be able to care for longer. There is a broader issue across government in that respect.

We are reviewing the carer's form and consulting different groups and stakeholders, particularly Family Carers Ireland. We have reduced the length of time it takes to process the application from 12 weeks to an average of four weeks. We speak to all groups in order to get feedback and, like the committee, they can tell us what is happening on the ground. We are certainly open to hearing other perspectives.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

It is important to mention I had a virtual meeting with a group of young carers last week. I just felt they were young carers doing a terrific job so it is important we recognise them and their dedication. We must ensure we always remember the great work done by such people and we should definitely look at what we can do for young carers. I thank the Minister.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the Minister and her Department for everything it did to support people during the Covid-19 pandemic, especially people with disabilities and their families. There were particular efforts with the PUP to steer people through that really difficult time. I also thank the Minister for her really encouraging contribution today. She is clearly really passionate and committed to delivering change for people with disabilities. Unfortunately, we regularly hear from witnesses before this committee who share with us the fact that they feel they need better advocacy. If they are tuned in today, they would be really pleased to hear all that the Minister does to advocate for them at a Cabinet level.

I welcome the Minister's announcements on budgetary changes that will enable more carers to access financial support and increase social welfare payments for benefits such as disability benefit. I welcome the Minister's commitment to finding a pathway to providing pensions for carers because that is really important. It was really interesting to hear the Minister speak about the potential restructuring of long-term disability payments to take into consideration varying costs and capability for work that people with a disability face as challenges.

It is fantastic that the Minister is encouraging those who can work to do so and she is incentivising companies to take on people in such a position. When I worked in a previous role, before I was a Deputy, my company had a great diversity and inclusion programme where we hired people from the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities. It was a real success both for the employees and their families, and it was also a success for my company. I saw first-hand exactly what the Minister spoke about today when she described how her Department enables people to be active participants in the workforce.

On that point, there is a workplace equipment adaptation grant available from the Department for people working in the private sector but it is not available for people working in the public sector. It is a discrepancy that was raised before this committee a couple of weeks ago. To be honest, Departments and the Civil Service should be leading by example when it comes to not just hiring people with disabilities but enabling them to do their jobs and setting them up for success by giving them the equipment they need access to. I would like to hear whether this is something the Minister will consider.

I have three other questions. The first relates to the changes that will come into effect from June relating to the carer's allowance. How many people are likely to come into the net with the means test threshold reducing and how many people who are currently receiving part-payment may move to a higher rate? People on a disablement benefit are currently automatically excluded from receiving the fuel allowance. Will the Minister consider reviewing this matter further? Finally, the practice whereby various Departments ask people with disabilities time and again to confirm they still have a disability has been raised repeatedly in this committee. Will the Department look at that in the context of the restructuring of the long-term disability payments being considered on the basis of the Indecon report?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I thank the Deputy. I am absolutely committed to helping people with a disability to get back into work. An employer employing a person with a disability for 39 hours per week will receive a payment from the State of €12,776 per annum. This is a significant incentive for employers to offer employment opportunities to people with disabilities. It had been my intention to do a jobs roadshow to network employers and people looking for work while trying to promote this process. It can be a win-win scenario for employers and people with disabilities if they can be brought into the workplace. It is so important as it takes people out of poverty and gives them dignity. That is what we want to do. Most important, we want to empower them to get out there and meet people socially through work, etc. There is a good deal of support for that process.

The Deputy asked why people in the public sector do not get a grant to adapt a workplace that is available to those in the private sector. We expect the public sector to show leadership in this and we cannot really have one arm of the State subsidising another. One would expect Departments and public bodies to show leadership in that regard.

The Deputy asked about people in receipt of the disablement benefit and the fuel allowance. I take it that the point has been raised with me before but I will revert to the Deputy about it.

The Deputy asked how many carers will benefit from the budgetary changes. The number is approximately 8,000. Those people will need to revise their claim in the coming weeks, given the expanded criteria within which they can apply for the payment. I encourage anybody who was turned down because the application was outside the limits to submit another application. We hope people will do that.

I have received a note on the disablement benefit. The disablement benefit depends on the degree of the person's disablement, which is medically assessed. If the person's disability is assessed at under 20%, that person will receive disablement benefit in a lump sum, with the amount depending on the degree of disability and how long it is expected to last. The maximum is €16,720. If the person's disability is assessed at above 20%, the payment is between a minimum of €47.80 per week and a maximum of €239 per week, depending on the degree of disability. People on disablement benefit might also qualify for incapacity supplement, constant attendance allowance or medical care. They do not get the fuel allowance currently but we keep all these matters under review. This has been raised with me before and there are not that many people on disablement benefit when we consider the supports out there for social welfare.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the Minister for addressing all the questions. That number of people who will be eligible for the carer's allowance, at 8,000, is huge. It is up to all of us as advocates for people with disabilities and their carers to try to get word out there and encourage people to resubmit their applications.

The Minister's comments on the workplace equipment adaptation grant are very encouraging. She has said she expects Departments to put changes in place themselves. The committee heard from witnesses that individuals were expected to put up the cost rather than the Department. Perhaps there is an opportunity for a circular or something to go to Departments so as to encourage them to find a budget for that initiative. It would be a really progressive step. I thank the Minister again for all she is doing in this space.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I welcome the Minister. I have just come from the Committee of Public Accounts. I apologise if I revisit any questions that have already been asked. We might stick on the idea that the public sector needs to show leadership, because I like that idea. It is a good one. We recently increased targets for our Departments to employ people self-identifying as having disabilities. The current target is 7%. I wonder where we are with that. I also wonder if it is the right target, because the target in the UK is 10%. Our original target was 3%. I ask the Minister to provide a quick update on this aspect.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I can only speak about my Department. Part 5 of Disability Act 2005 provides for a statutory report on the employment of people with disabilities in the public sector. As part of this report, we conduct an annual disability census survey of our employees and 3,156 employees responded anonymously to the 2021 survey. Of those who responded, 440 disclosed disabilities. This constitutes 6.5% of the overall Department staff complement as of 31 December 2021. The Department has, therefore, made substantial progress in increasing the number of staff disclosing a disability. Recruitment for the Department is conducted by the Public Appointments Service, PAS, and it is committed to ensuring that employment competitions are accessible to individuals requiring adaptations of competitions processes and the applicants are facilitated in that regard. The Department has engaged with PAS to discuss recruitment overall and to advise on a public appointments strategy to enhance equal opportunities in the recruitment process. As Deputy Hourigan stated, the public sector needs to lead on this issue because we must ensure we take on people with disabilities and give them a fair and equal opportunity to contribute to the various Departments across the Civil Service.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I thank the Minister for that response. It is an encouraging number. I did not think we would be at that level already. That is good.

I will highlight two issues in this regard. The Minister flagged one regarding the recruitment process. Someone came to me about the starting the process of trying to look for a job, and a person with a visual impairment, for example, would encounter unseen barriers. That is something we must keep under constant review to ensure we are getting it right. Another area that might prove to be a constant barrier for people is the availability of personal assistance hours. Those often come through a different Department than the Minister's, but a barrier for people might be the conflation of personal assistance hours for daily living with those for employment. The Economic and Social Research Institute flagged this issue in 2020. It puts people in the position where they must make a choice between their allocation of personal assistance hours for daily living and those for employment. Is the Department aware of this issue and will it be considering it? Does the Minister think there might be a benefit to differentiate between personal assistance hours for employment and those relating to general life?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The provision of assistance hours is dealt with by the Department of Health. It is examining the issue. My Department is ensuring that we give opportunities, but I cannot specify how many people get personal assistance hours in my Department. To be honest, I am not sure. I do not know because I do not have those figures. It is important that we provide assistance, however. We will do everything we can. We have more than 6,000 employees in the Department of Social Protection and we give people with disabilities every opportunity to enable them to come and work with us, and we will continue to do so.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That is fair enough. One of the topics we talk about frequently in this committee is that the topic of disability straddles several Departments and it can be difficult to align things sometimes. My impression is that the Council of Irish Sign Language Interpreters, CISLI, comes under the national disability inclusion strategy, NDIS. Does that mean it falls within the ambit of the Department of Social Protection? If so, is that the right place for it? As we are moving to a rights-based model, should it perhaps be more correctly placed in a different Department? Perhaps I am wrong about this, and it does not fall within the remit of the Department.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Deputy Hourigan has posed a question I cannot answer. I do not think it is a part of my Department, but I will check and respond directly to the Deputy later.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

It is a relatively new group, and I am under the impression that it comes under the NDIS.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

It is under the remit of the Citizens Information Board, CIB, and that is a part of my Department. We also have the National Advocacy Service, NAS, to advocate for people with disabilities and that also comes under the CIB. I know that because I met representatives of the organisation only recently. Its role is to advocate and it does much good work in that space, under the auspices of the CIB. The NAS ensures that people with disabilities receive their supports and it can advocate for people on different issues. The service does good work. Therefore, the Deputy is correct about CISLI. The CIB falls under my Department, and the NDIS falls under the purview of CIB.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I have one quick question, which I suspect someone else has already asked the Minister and I missed it. We are and will be having a significant influx of people fleeing the war in Ukraine. Like all communities and cohorts, a certain percentage of those refugees will be people with disabilities. People are even finding it difficult to leave Ukraine because of their disabilities and the level of disruption they are experiencing. What kind of work is the Department doing on this issue?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

When people arrive here, my Department is ensuring that we have a one-stop shop in Dublin Airport, as well as other facilities in Limerick, Cork and Dublin and Rosslare. We work closely with the Department of Justice on this issue. It provides refugees with temporary visas, and then we immediately give them personal public service numbers. Once they have those, refugees get supplementary welfare support. They will qualify for a weekly payment of €206, plus any qualifying payment for dependant children. The figures show that the majority of people coming here, some 88% or 89%, are women and children, and the first thing we want to do is to give them some financial security, and they are getting that. We will come back to them in due course and put them in contact with the relevant social protection payments, and the disability allowance is one of those payments. These refugees have full entitlement to all the supports the State provides to EU and Irish citizens.

Much work is ongoing in this regard. The people arriving have come from horrific situations and are traumatised. The Department and its staff are working hard to ensure that they get all the support they need. As I said, that includes people with disabilities getting disability allowance payments. The Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, and the Minister of State with special responsibility for disability, Deputy Rabbitte, are exploring what more can be done to help people with disabilities arriving here and perhaps identify how we can put supports in place to help them.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I thank the Minister.

Senator Erin McGreehan

I welcome the Minister, who has highlighted well the efficiencies and positive work she and her Department officials are doing. They are clearly well up on the schemes. The Minister and her officials are very much on top of all these figures. A great deal of positive work is being done by the Department. From my perspective and that of this committee, we are aware of the positive changes in this regard, including in respect of means testing, etc. This committee's role is to challenge the everyday norms we see in our society.

The fact is that normality is not working for many people at the minute. As Ms Paula Soraghan from County Louth said on behalf of Independent Living Movement Ireland at a meeting of this committee a few weeks ago, disabled people have so much potential that society thinks they do not have, but the State does not facilitate them. It is about creating the choice. At the minute, they do not have that choice. The choice is not there. This committee wants to instil that equity and to make sure we put that equity into the system. I refer to equity as opposed to equality.

I have a number of points that I would like the Minister to take on board. I have a request, which has been spoken about by other members. My first ask, which Deputy Higgins has mentioned, is about the individualisation of reasonable accommodation grants. The Minister mentioned that it would be up to the Department, but people with disabilities who work for our local authorities are told to put forward a business case for assistive technology. They are then told that they do not satisfy a business case and they do not get that assisted technology. They are not granted it. They are left to stew. They do not have the ability to progress in their employment because they do not have the leg up, or they have to get that technology themselves. Most often, as so many people have highlighted here today, the cost of those disabilities prohibit people from being able to afford the technology themselves. I urge the Department to move and to change. The Minister said a little while ago that the Minister and the Department always want to do more. We are asking them to do things differently, along with doing more. This is about changing how the Department looks at the social benefits that are provided to people with disabilities, so that we move from a medical model towards the social and rights-based model of which Deputy Hourigan previously spoke.

For instance, there should be a move towards a care means test, as opposed to a financial means test, for carer's allowance. We need the individualisation of benefits to reduce a person’s dependency on another person. It was highlighted during our session on women with disabilities that people do not move in with their partners because they will lose their independence if they move in with someone they love. This is because their disability allowance would be means tested and they might lose it. They would lose that independence. The softie in me thinks it is heartbreaking that someone would not move on in a relationship for fear of losing their benefits because they would be means tested and would lose their independence.

I suggest to the Minister - I know that she and her Department would be very open to this - that the personal assistance service should be moved from the HSE to the Department of Social Protection because these are social rights as opposed to medical rights and medical assistance. Personal assistance is not about medical assistance. It is about social assistance to be able to facilitate people to take up jobs, go to the library, go out and meet friends and do all of the normal things that many of us take for granted.

I have mentioned a few challenges for the Minister, and I have many questions. I will mention another point that I would like the Minister and her Department to take on board. Although I do not expect answers today, I would really like the Minister and her Department to take them on board and to consider them. I ask her to open up the travel scheme and have a review of it to make sure it has more flexibility built into it when it comes to conditions such as epilepsy. If someone with epilepsy, for example, is not allowed to drive for a certain length of time, flexibility should be built into the system in order that he or she might be able to get free travel for a short period of time - perhaps six months or whatever the medical timeframe is - until they are permitted to drive. If they were able to get free travel for that period, they would be able to travel to work. They would not be taken out of work and that their life would be made a little easier.

My big ask is for flexibility and individualisation to be built into the system. We know that the system is robust. The Minister articulates that very well, as she does for all of the schemes within her Department. However, we want to build difference into the system.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I thank the Senator. The focus of my Department has to be, and has always been, to provide an income support - a basic income - to help people when they need it. That is the number one focus of this Department. It is not a service support. Services come from other Departments. I know the point that the Senator is making, but a change to individualisation would be a fundamental change to the social welfare system. We should bear in mind that individualisation would have winners and losers. I remember somebody once said to me, "If I solved that problem, I would create about ten more." I think he was a Minister for Health at the time.

I take the Senator's point that we could change things. Where we see opportunities to change things, we will change them. If we can do so without causing unintended consequences across other areas, we will certainly do that. That is why we continue to review all of our different supports right across the board. We take on and listen to the views. We are at this committee today to hear everybody’s views. I am answering questions. We take on board the views that the committee is giving to us today. We include those views as part of our consideration when we are looking at different schemes and looking at how we can make them better.

On the individualisation of reasonable accommodation grants, and particularly assistive technology, we are doing a review of that scheme at the minute. First, it is underused. It is actually quite a good grant. A maximum grant of €6,350 is available towards the cost of adaptation to premises or equipment. Applications in excess of this sum are considered on an individual basis, up to a maximum of €9,523, if specialist training for assistive technology is required.

The Senator made a point about the local authorities. We would like to think that the public service would lead and that we would not have to be giving it money to do these things. In fairness to the local authorities, they are getting a good deal of support across all the different Departments to deliver on behalf of the Government. In the Department of Rural and Community Development, for instance, there has been a massive multi-million euro investment into local authorities. I think they should be looking at this themselves, to be quite honest with the Senator. They have unprecedented investment to provide housing through the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and indeed across other Departments as well. I take the Senator's point, but they have to prioritise as well. That is what they have to do. I do not want one part of government to be subsidising another part of government for something it should be doing in the first place. It is clear, as part of Government policy, that we want to see people who have disabilities being assisted to come into the workplace.

The Senator mentioned the free travel scheme, which is to ensure that older people and people with disabilities remain active in their community. She raised the issue of people with epilepsy. I have looked at that and am considering it. Epilepsy is one illness, but I am sure there are other illnesses, where people with the condition can only drive for a limited time. Where does one stop? People who are blind are eligible for free travel. People who are blind are blind and that is it. For people who have a condition from which they can recover and, with the right medication, improve their situation, it starts to get more difficult. Resources are finite. We do not have an unlimited pot, despite what some people may think. For this reason, we have to target where we believe resources are most needed. I am looking at the issue of people with epilepsy. It was raised with me by a Deputy in the Dáil and I said I would look at it. I met the organisation that represents people with epilepsy. The matter is ongoing. I will leave it at that. I thank the Senator.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I will start with a positive, in that I very much welcome the review of the carer's grant. That is very important, especially for young carers.

I have noticed the language used in the room today has not been nice. We are referring to people with disability and disabled people as "them" an awful lot and using terms like "We are helping them.". I find that language inappropriate for people who are disabled and have disabilities. I wish to put that on the record. People do not need help. People need support to be able to empower and help themselves. Financial supports give disabled people tools and opportunities to be able to go about their daily lives, in the context of their basic needs.

Yesterday, I was speaking to a person around language coming in to this committee, and not wanting to offend or insult anybody. I did not know this until I had that conversation with her. She said it is society that disables people. I could not believe that I, who has been in this line of work for more than ten years, had not put that into my own sense of things. When she said it to me, it made so much sense. We are the problem. It is not the people with the disability or those who are disabled who are the problem. We are the problem as a society and as a system. As Deputy Cairns said, the system is not working and we have to look at that.

In 2022, the rate of poverty and social exclusion was 36.9% for disabled people and just 13.2% for non-disabled people. We are talking about the roadmap of social inclusion. These targets are not very ambitious. In fact, the indication is that the rate of poverty for disabled people has increased since 2020 because of the raising of rents, the impact of the pandemic, as well as fuel and food costs. The cost of living has gone up so much. It affects elderly people as well. Once they are over 66 years, are they entitled to disability benefits? There is a rate of just over €200 a week for people who have a disability. Deputy Cairns touched on this. I continue to help people with the application forms. If people have a severe intellectual disability, what supports are available to them to fill out those forms? I understand there are local community development organisations that are good on the ground and work with people who have disabilities to help them fill out these application forms. I want to know how those groups are supported in order to support people with disabilities when filling out those forms?

The Minister said that there are more than 6,000 people employed by the Department of Social Protection. For the record, how many of those people have identified as having a disability or as being disabled? I refer to the motto "Nothing about us without us". As a Traveller woman, I know the importance of that and of listening to people who have disabilities and are disabled. We need to be very careful with our language going forward, such as saying that we are helping them or have got them bus passes. We need to look at our language and think before we speak.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I thank the Senator. First, I do not know whether she was here for all of my contribution, but I have said a number of times this morning that we need to empower people. The Department wants to give people who have disabilities the opportunity to participate fully in society but also to empower them. The most important way by which anybody is empowered is to have the opportunity to go to work. I am absolutely committed to supporting people with disabilities in finding employment and to trying to break down any barriers that exist between the employee and the employer. The employability programme is doing great work in that space. That is why, when the funding for the ability programme was due to finished last year, I met Des Henry and the relevant groups. They are providing wonderful support to young people with disabilities to help them get back into the workforce. There are many different types of disabilities and they were able to support them. They have done good work in that regard. That is why I took money from the Dormant Accounts Fund to make sure funding continued when the EU funding ceased. We are making another application for similar EU funding. To be fair, it is about supporting and, most important, empowering people to realise their full potential. That is what we are about in the Department of Social Protection. As I said, our purpose is to ensure people have a basic income. There is a basic payment but there are also many add-ons to that, in terms of different supports that a person can get in my Department and other Departments. I outlined them earlier so I will not go through them again.

As to the cost of disability, we commissioned the Indecon report on the cost of disability. It was published and we are acting on it. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is chairing a steering group. However, this relates to more than one Department. I do not have to tell the Senator that. It is right across the Government. The Minister of State is pulling together the Departments. The steering group will make findings which will be acted on and brought to the Government in due course.

On assisting people with disabilities, we have the National Advocacy Service for People with Disabilities, which falls under the remit of the Citizens Information Board. It is available to help people and advocates for those who have disabilities. The service is fully funded by my Department. We also have the Citizens Information Board to help people. I can honestly say that when people with disabilities go into Intreo offices, they will be treated with dignity and respect, as everybody is treated, to be fair. The Senator can rest assured that they will get the support they need.

On the Department's staff, as of 31 December 2021, 6.5% of departmental staff identified as having a disability.

Chairman

Is the Senator okay with that?

Senator Eileen Flynn

I have one final question.

How much does it cost the State every year to means test the grant payment support scheme? We have assessments and, as Deputy Cairns said, it is not a great process. People are often refused and must reapply. How much does this cost the State?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

We do not a figure for this cost because we do not individualise the cost of assessing these applications.

Senator Eileen Flynn

The Department does not individualise so we treat everybody the same. I am finding it difficult that the Minister does not have an answer as to how much it would cost every year to means test people with disabilities.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

We have a team of staff who assess all of the applications when they come in. It is all included in our staff costs. I do not have a breakdown as to what apportionment is to a specific duty. I apologise but that is the best I can give on the answer.

Senator Eileen Flynn

That is okay.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the question.

Senator Eileen Flynn

No, it is fine.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

I appreciate the opportunity to be able to speak briefly. I had to run in and out of another committee meeting where a quorum was required. I apologise for that. I thank the Minister for taking the time to meet the committee today.

We have been very clear in all our deliberations that we need to have a cross-governmental approach. We cannot have a situation where the challenges and issues that impact on people with disabilities are siloed into one particular area. In the past year and a half, having had the opportunity to engage with so many people about their lived experience with disabilities, it has been very clear that we need to have this type of engagement with Ministers in every area of Cabinet. We appreciate the Minister giving her time. I look forward to seeing her later in Kildare. We are all under pressure. The Minister will get to see some of the very positive projects in south Kildare.

The Minister spoke about empowering people with disabilities and rightly so. This has to be the number one priority for all of us on the committee and across the Government. It is about giving everybody the opportunity to live in society with dignity and to be able to contribute to society and live independently. As the Minister rightly stated, it also includes being able to secure employment. Sadly, we do not have a good record when it comes to people with disabilities accessing employment. It is good to see it improving. I know Mr. Des Henry very well and I applaud the work he does. He has been involved in WALK and setting up the internship programme in Leinster House. There will be a briefing on this later. Ours is the first parliament to establish such a programme. Three quarters of those involved in the first programme were able to get permanent jobs afterwords, including two in Leinster House. It was worth doing. We need to do more.

I appreciate that the Minister had the opportunity earlier to address the areas that are of concern to me. These include the Indecon report that came from the Department on the cost of disability. We come to the dichotomy between equality and equity. Equality does not mean equity. We know that the cost of disability ranges from €10,000 per annum to €12,000 per annum. It is about how we have an equal playing field. People start with this as a minus in terms of trying to make ends meet, which is difficult for everybody during these times. We have to look at ways we can ensure this is taken into account in the Department and across the realm. Does the solution lie in introducing a cost of disability payment in order to allow people living with disability to achieve the same standard of living as those who do not have disabilities? This would remove a barrier in terms of financial independence.

Another area of concern is the means testing of disability payments. It undermines disabled people's choice and control over their own lives and restricts their ability to choose where and with whom to live as support is tied to that person. At a previous meeting I mentioned a young lady I know who lives with a disability. She is in a wheelchair. Her husband, by virtue of his work, is abroad quite a bit. She often brings her children to school. She is in a wheelchair and they walk beside her. I was shocked when she contacted me, having already known her, to find she did not get any disability payment whatsoever. She has to ask her husband for money for period products. She has no access to any individual payment for herself. I have major concerns about this.

I appreciate that there is not an infinite purse and that we cannot do everything we would like to do. The Minister spoke about supports for those who have more of a need, and I accept this. For those who have an invisible disability, it is very difficult for them to access the supports they need because their disability is not perceived as being serious enough. Sometimes a small intervention to help them goes a long way . Those are the questions and comments I wish to put to the Minister.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I thank the Senator for her comments. She mentioned the cost of disability and the report. What is clear from the report is that the cost of disability is significantly broader than income supports. It is clear that it will not be addressed through income support alone. A basic standard income support for all people with disabilities is unlikely to address the costs incurred by those most severely limited by their disabilities. As the Senator said, and we have discussed it, some people have severe disabilities and others have disabilities that are less severe. We need to target it where it is needed most. A one-size-fits-all approach is not fit for purpose. At present, it is flat across the board.

One of the recommendations in the cost of disability report is that those with more severe disabilities need the greatest support. For those with less severe disabilities, we can empower them and help them to get into the workplace and become more independent. A number of measures will be examined. The Minister of State with responsibility for disability, Deputy Rabbitte, has established a committee that will go through all of these issues in detail. The Senator is correct that it requires a cross-governmental approach. It is not just about one Department. In fairness to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, she is pulling it all together. This is the first time it is being done. I will support her in every way I can, as I know the Senator will. It is the right way to go about it I have no doubt about this. We have this comprehensive report and we can continue to work on it and make sure we get the right outcomes.

The Senator mentioned the means test. It ensures not only that recipients across the board have an income need but also that the scarce resources are targeted at those with the greatest need.

The disability allowance currently has the highest capital disregard of any scheme operated by the Department. A recipient can have up to €50,000 in savings and still receive the full rate of payment. This is something that was brought to my attention. It used to be €20,000. I increased it in the most recent budget to €50,000, which was very much welcomed by the disability groups at the time. Of course, the disability allowance recipients may work and earn up to €140 per week without it affecting their payment. People receiving disability allowance may also be eligible for secondary benefits, such as free travel, fuel allowance, the household benefits package, the living alone allowance and the telephone support allowance. Depending on their circumstances, recipients may also be entitled to rent supplement or housing assistance payment to help meet housing expenses. Removing the means test for disability allowance would have significant budgetary implications and would give rise to inconsistencies in how means tests are applied across all schemes.

Again, as the Senator will appreciate, there have to be rules for schemes. Unfortunately, when we have rules, there are always those who fall marginally inside or outside them. Even though I increased the limits, as I did in the budget, no matter how much the change is, there is always going to be somebody who falls outside the scheme. If somebody has real financial problems such that they cannot meet their commitments, under the supplementary social welfare allowance there is an urgent needs payment and an essential needs payment. If anybody has difficulty in meeting some of their costs currently, and we know the cost of living has gone up, they can go to the community welfare officer and apply for an urgent needs payment to help them with the difficulties they are having. That is the State support; it is the safety net that the State has to help people who get into difficulty. We are here to help, and that is the one message I want to get out there today. Right across the board, the purpose of social protection is to give that financial support to people when they need it.

I look forward to seeing the Senator later. If we do not get going soon, we will be late.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

I will be late anyway, but I will catch up with the Minister at some stage.

Chairman

Deputy Cairns has two points to make and I also have a question, so we are nearly finished. I call Deputy Cairns.

Deputy Holly Cairns

I have two questions, but I will first make another point. The Minister's comment that people can have €50,000 in savings and earn €140 per week is like saying, “Isn't it great that somebody can have €50,000 in savings and still get their benefit?” That is very difficult for people watching these proceedings to hear. Why can somebody with a disability or a disabled person not save more than that? It leaves them out of being able to save for things like buying a home or earning an income without having this consequence of disability.

To move to my two questions, the enhanced illness benefit form online is much simpler than the paper version. The illness benefit and back to school clothing and footwear allowance forms are not available for download. Will the Minister commit to having all forms available in plain English and available online?

Second, the pandemic highlighted issues of digital poverty. Will the Minister update the household benefits package and telephone support allowance to include support for Internet services, broadband and hardware like laptops and tablets?

Chairman

The Minister can address Deputy Cairns' questions and my questions together. I thank the Minister for her contributions and for her tour of the various Departments and schemes. She stated earlier that she is here to help. There are many people who are dependent on State support throughout their lives, and this has been particularly reflected in the evidence we have heard at the disability committee. The Minister spoke about carers and the various efforts that have been made. There is one question with regard to carers. Carer’s benefit was brought in more than 20 years ago and it was based on contributions. It has been very successful in allowing people to come out of employment to care for a loved one, whether a sibling, a child or a parent who might need them. In many cases, there is a lifelong need for care for a sibling or child but the benefit only lasts two years. It is based on a person's employment contributions. Is there scope to look at carer’s benefit being extended beyond the two years? I see many cases coming through, particularly for the care of a sibling or a child, where one or other of the partners gives up their full-time employment to provide care. They get the carer’s benefit for two years and then they are onto the means tested payments, where, because of the spousal partner being over the limit, the only grant they get is the €1,800. While it is welcome that the grant has been increased, some flexibility is needed.

The language I would like to see is that it would be care assessed rather than means assessed. This issue should be looked at. It is a big volume of work to do but it is very important. People are providing full-time care for a family member. In overall monetary terms, they are probably saving the State a considerable amount of money but this would also recognise them as full-time carers. The two things that could be done are the extension of the carer’s benefit and ensuring it is care assessed rather than means assessed for people who have the necessity for full-time care.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I want to be clear. I am outlining what we have done in the Department, but I never said that is enough. In response to Deputy Cairns, we want to do more. I am certainly not sitting here, saying we are doing a great job; I am telling her what we have done. We increased it from €20,000 to €50,000. I think that is progress and I want to see more progress.

In response to the Chairman's question on carer’s benefit, we are paying almost €1 billion to carers as matters stands. It is a substantial scheme. All of the benefits schemes are time-limited and carer’s benefit is for two years, although jobseeker’s benefit is much shorter and maternity benefit is 26 weeks. This has been extended over time. I take the Chairman's point that somebody who is on carer’s benefit might continue to care for longer than two years and would have to be means tested. We have increased that. It will kick in in June so it should make a difference to people. That means people can have €750 of income coming into the house and can have savings of €50,000 from the beginning of June, and they can still qualify for the carer’s allowance. I take Deputy Cairns' point. I know what she is saying, but even when we change it, there are still going to be winners and losers.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and her officials for attending. I thank the members for participating and for their questions, and I thank our team for facilitating the meeting. We look forward to further engagement with the Minister. There might be a few issues we want to follow up on. I am sure the Department will come back to us with the information.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.59 a.m. until 9 a.m. on Thursday, 31 March 2022.