Joint Committee on Disability Matters díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 May 2022

Employment and the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Deputies Phelan, Wynne and Murnane O'Connor and Senator Clonan. Senator Conway is substituting for Senator Seery Kearney.

The purpose of today's meeting is to resume our discussions on employment and the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to: Mr. Patrick Flanagan, create employment co-ordinator, from Independent Living Movement Ireland; Mr. Patrick Murphy and Mr. Alan Porter from the National Learning Network, NLN, Bantry; Dr. Aideen Hartney, director, and Ms Marion Wilkinson, senior policy adviser, from the National Disability Authority, NDA; and Mr. Alan McGrath, executive director, and Ms Roisin Doherty, director of learner support, from SOLAS. We look forward to our engagement with the witnesses.

I remind members that they are only allowed to participate if they are physically located on the campus of Leinster House. I ask members who are joining us remotely to confirm that they are within the grounds of Leinster House prior to contributing to the meeting. For anyone watching online, some witnesses are accessing the meeting remotely. Due to the unprecedented nature of these circumstances, I ask everyone to bear with us should any technical difficulties arise.

Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise witnesses giving evidence from locations outside the parliamentary precincts that the constitutional protection afforded to witnesses attending and giving evidence before the committee may not extend to them. No clear guidance can be provided on the extent to which such evidence is covered by absolute privilege of a statutory nature. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter, they must respect the decision of the Chair. Members are reminded of long-standing parliamentary practice.

I call on Mr. Patrick Flanagan to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Patrick Flanagan

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to contribute. On behalf of my colleagues at the Independent Living Movement Ireland, ILMI, we welcome these opportunities to address issues of policy and provision for disabled people across Ireland. We also welcome the recognition of the ILMI as an authentic voice that represents the lived experiences of disabled people.

We will all agree that disabled people have an equal right to work and should be given the supports that they need to access or retain employment, and to have the same career opportunities as others.

In its 2021 report the Irish State made 35 observations under Article 27 of the UNCRPD relating to work and employment. We will all agree that this suggests substantial work is being done but we may not all agree on whether or not this work has been, or will be, successful. I will share ILMI’s view on this question, through our observations on Ireland’s first draft report to the UN under the UNCRPD in April 2021, ILMI’s submission on the review of the reasonable accommodation fund, RAF, of May 2022 and ILMI’s CREATE project, which is an employment initiative supported by the Dormant Accounts Fund and which has run from March 2021 to the present.

It is important to note at this point that ILMI’s observations and feedback emerge from inclusive and participative spaces that bring disabled people together as a collective on a cross-impairment basis. As a result, the views and experiences we share are diverse and varied just like those who offered them.

ILMI’s vision for Ireland is one of an inclusive society where disabled persons have freedom, choice and control over all aspects of their lives and can fully participate in an inclusive society as equals. The UNCRPD is an important tool in providing a framework for the realisation of this vision, with employment a key pillar alongside housing, transport, and personal assistance services. Inaccessible or in some cases, non-existent public transport, as well as unaffordable private transport, prevents disabled people from being able to travel to any potential place work. Remote working, while beneficial, is not possible for some roles or in some areas due to poor broadband infrastructure. It also risks pigeonholing disabled people into specific types of work, as well as isolating them from their colleagues and work communities. There are also serious attitudinal barriers and employers who demonstrate negative perceptions about work productivity among their disabled employees.

Time efficiency is often quoted as a reason for a disabled person not getting a job, and job applications often require statements of impairment or additional needs which many fear will undermine their prospects for success. Disabled people can be made ineligible for supports once they begin to earn above certain thresholds, and can lose secondary benefits which many disabled people rely on, such as a free travel pass, blind pension and the medical card. The rising cost of living and the cost of disability combined with the risk of losing essential benefits means that disabled people face the prospect of being worse off should they take up employment. ILMI welcomed the recent review of the reasonable accommodation fund, RAF, and the chance to address some of the issues disabled people experience in respect of reasonable accommodation.

Currently in Ireland some employment supports are only available at entry level or interview stage for disabled people, while others do not follow the person throughout their employment journey. The job interview interpreter grant is available to persons with a hearing or speech impairment but only at interview and induction stages of work, unlike the personal reader grant. Meanwhile the workplace equipment adaptation grant supports a range of provisions, including assistive technologies. However, these must be first purchased by employers and cannot be retained by the employee should they change jobs, putting repeated, unreasonable and unnecessary costs on employers and the State.

With work accommodations, there is a repeated onus on disabled people to have to apply for supports and the provision of these is not administered in an open and transparent way, nor through the same schemes or State Departments. These are also framed through a medical model of disability and highlight a person’s impairment and limitations, rather than their professional qualities and potential, which reinforces the attitudinal barriers already highlighted.

I am conscious of so far having only told the committee what the problems are. Let me share some solutions and the positives that we see at ILMI. particularly through our CREATE project. CREATE works with disabled people across Ireland, delivering professional and peer supports that aim to grow their confidence and capacity to start or progress their employment journey. I have had the privilege of leading this project for the past 14 months and have worked with a hugely diverse community of people of all ages and abilities. Every person has had their unique skills and qualities, and every person has shown a willingness and ability to positively contribute to our society as workers.

The success of our project, and our participants, has highlighted for us a number of important lessons. One is the variety of different ways in which people can and want to work. There is no one-size-fits-all approach and our employment opportunities must be reflective of, and adaptable to, the diversity of disabled workers. The same must be said for reasonable accommodations, which should be provided more effectively, aligning the support with the needs of the disabled person themselves.

As I have mentioned, CREATE’s focus is on finding confidence rather than explicitly finding a job. This might seem unconventional or insufficient for an employment project but confidence is at the core of ensuring that disabled people have an equal right and opportunity to work. We must have confidence in our own ability to work. We must have confidence in employers’ willingness to hire and capacity to support us. We must also have confidence that the State and society will provide for, and not penalise, us when we seek employment opportunities.

If we continue to adopt the social model of disability over the medical model, and continue to put views and voices of disabled people at the centre of our conversations, we are confident that Ireland can meet its obligations on Article 27 and ensure that we can all participate as equals in the labour force and society.

I thank the members of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters and my colleagues. I look forward to their questions.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Flanagan and now call on Mr. Murphy to make his opening remarks. It is great to welcome Cork people every now and then. He is very welcome, as is Mr. Porter of the National Learning Network, NLN, Bantry.

Mr. Patrick Murphy

I thank the Chair. I am grateful for the invitation. I know the Deputy representing Cork South-West, Deputy Cairns, is also here. She was instrumental in the invitation being afforded to us. We are delighted to be here today to give a synopsis of what we do in Bantry NLN and to consider some of the issues we can tease out, going forward, and which might make employment opportunities for people with disabilities more easily accessible and attainable.

I am the manager of NLN in Bantry, west Cork. We cover the whole west Cork area. I have been with NLN for nigh on 20 years. Time is not long slipping by. I am joined by my colleague, Mr. Alan Porter, who recently completed the employment skills training programme in NLN and has moved on to employment. He will speak to his journey in NLN in due course when I have finished my remarks.

NLN is the training and education division of the Rehab Group. There are approximately 50 NLN training centres around the country. We provide a range of flexible training courses for people who have experienced a setback, have had an accident, a mental health difficulty, an illness, or injury or who have a disability or extra support needs. Our vocational courses are funded by Cork Education Training Board. Our rehabilitative training programmes are funded by the HSE. At any given time, there are approximately 120 students on various programmes in NLN in west Cork and Bantry.

NLN operates a unique continuous intake approach whereby students can start their training programmes at any time. Students learn at their own pace and have an individual action plan and reviews that take place monthly to make sure progress is going in the right direction for everybody and their needs are being met.

Our HSE-funded courses offer rehabilitative training programmes for students of 18 years and over. We also have a few innovative mental health programmes. Only last August, we were recognised by the WHO as a model of good practice in our home focus programme. It was heartening to be recognised as one of 25 projects internationally that achieved that recognition.

Our vocational programmes in Bantry are funded by the Cork Education and Training Board and offer introductory skills training. Our employability skills programme, which is a Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, level 3 programme, is an example.

We also offer skills-specific training programmes, including an employment skills QQI level 4 programme, which is known as employer-based training. That is the course Mr. Porter completed recently. We have a horticulture programme that is QQI level 4 certified. We also have an office administration programme by independent learning, whereby people study at home and come into the training centre two days a week. That is a QQI level 5 programme.

We have a multidisciplinary team supporting students which includes a rehabilitation psychologist, rehabilitation officer, a resource teacher and a team of instructors. The multidisciplinary team supports and provides an holistic approach to training and provides one-to-one and group sessions to help students build their study, organisational, social and psychological skills.

I will focus on the programme that Mr. Porter completed because that is pertinent to what we are discussing here today. That is our employment skills QQI level 4 programme. As I said, it offers a QQI level 4 training certification and is aimed towards the development of skills, knowledge and attitudes to transition to employment, further education and training or both. Students can spend up to two years on the 30-hour per week programme. The programme includes 22 hours on-the-job training, which is important, and eight hours in-centre training, working on the certification elements of the programme. Students within the NLN receive nationally recognised qualifications after completing their training and progress to employment or further education.

Last year, of the students who completed their training in the NLN in west Cork, 92% progressed to either part-time or full-time employment and further education and training.

One thing we do quite well in west Cork is our links with employers. Building that bond and that relationship is hugely important. Building links and trust with local employers is critically important in providing quality work experience and employment opportunities on completion of the training programme. NLN Bantry has a very comprehensive database of quality employers, spanning a broad range of employment sectors such as retail, tourism and hospitality, agrifood, public service, administration, pharma, social care and education. This enables NLN students to access quality work experience placements and job opportunities on completion of their training programmes. The network operates a close working relationship with these employers by regularly engaging through our employer-based training co-ordinator and our work experience co-ordinator. Additionally, the network offers all employers disability awareness training, and epilepsy and autism awareness training where required.

I will highlight some important points the committee might consider when putting together its report on employment and the UNCRPD. The Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the further and higher education sectors are currently working on providing pathways through the various different levels within the further and higher education sectors. It is important that the programmes provided by specialist training providers, STPs, such as NLN, be included on this continuum to facilitate students’ access to clear progression routes on to further education and training, institutes of technology, technological universities and university courses in due course after having completed their programmes.

Something we find very useful in west Cork is the wage subsidy scheme for people with disabilities. This remains critically important for both employers and students in the provision and taking up of employment. We commend the recent increase in the rate of subsidy under the scheme. We would like greater flexibility brought into the scheme so more people can qualify, such as people who work less than 21 hours per week or whose expected duration of work is less than six months. The review of the scheme must meet the promise in the programme for Government to fine-tune and expand this scheme.

The Chair and Deputy Cairns will appreciate this next point, being from very rural communities. Our previous contributor mentioned it as well. Transport can be a large impediment to people with disabilities accessing training and education opportunities and employment. We hear this all the time. It is especially difficult in a rural context such as west Cork, for example, where public transport is underdeveloped. Greater investment is needed in this area to allow people with disabilities to take up these opportunities. The Local Link service could be expanded to offer a bespoke solution to people with disabilities travelling to work and training. I spent the past two days scrambling around trying to find transport for two students who were leaving school in Castletownbere so they could travel to Bantry to take up training places with NLN. We are working on it but there are no easy solutions.

The cost of disability needs to be addressed generally. The cost of participation in work or training can be high for many people with disabilities. The Indecon report on this was published last December and we really need the Government to respond to that in the upcoming budget, if at all possible.

There is another challenge in special schools. There is a lack of formal transition planning process from special schools to further and third levels. There is limited knowledge about post-second level training providers, such as NLN, so students lose out on inclusive education and training opportunities because they simply do not know these opportunities exist.

I thank the committee. I look forward to answering questions or expanding on any of the issues I have highlighted. I will hand over to Mr. Alan Porter, who recently completed our employment skills training programme.

Mr. Alan Porter

I originally came to this country 13 years ago from Spokane, Washington, in the United States. I was born with a condition called congenital hydrocephalus. I was told I would be able to live more or less like anyone else, with the exception of never being a football captain, which suited me as I was never really a huge sports fan. Throughout the years I found I had fared better than others like me and had not needed any revision or replacement surgeries for the shunt that had been placed in my head when I was five days old. All that changed in 2013 when I learned that I needed a shunt replacement. I put my best face on and went through the procedure. I was left with trouble concentrating, focusing on and memorising things and with some bad balance. Although I had been struggling a little with these things throughout my earlier years, they became more apparent after the surgery. That was a bit of a wake-up call.

After several failed attempts to gain employment, I was introduced to NLN and joined its employability skills training programme. There, I began to reclaim a lot of skills I had thought lost forever due to neurological difficulties. As time passed I found that I was able to function more efficiently and began working in the kitchen at the centre, which, in turn, led to work experience in several different businesses around the area. My time at the centre also gave me the opportunity to work on my social interaction skills, which I had also been struggling with since adolescence. I now have a sizable group of friends in west Cork, whom I tend to consider family.

I graduated with a QQI level 3 qualification in employability skills and enrolled in the level 4 employment skills training course with the support of my head mentor, where I continue to further my skills in matters of employment. Shortly before the pandemic I had also secured some work experience at a coffee shop in Skibbereen but when things spiralled out of control, everything got cut to the bare minimum in terms of work time. Some time after that, I finally moved to Bantry. Things were still a bit shaky around restrictions and employment. I gained valuable work experience at a local bar and restaurant called The Quay's Bar and under the watchful eye of my employer, I learned new skills and tasks. I enjoy the role I was given working behind the scenes, performing all different sorts of tasks from dishwashing to moving and placing stock, and feeling part of the team. After The Quay's Bar mentored me, my skills improved and the outcome could not be more positive. After completing my training programme with NLN I was able to secure paid part-time employment in the bar. I do not believe for a moment that this could have been possible without my time at NLN. I feel I owe the staff there and at The Quay's, as well as my adopted nation, a debt I could never repay.

Dr. Aideen Hartney

I thank the Chair and the members of the committee for the opportunity to present on this topic. The NDA provides independent and evidence-informed advice to Government on policy and practice relevant to the lives of disabled people. We also incorporate a centre for excellence in universal design, promoting the design of buildings, products, services and ICT so they can be accessed, understood and used by everyone, regardless of age, size, ability or disability.

I will begin with a few key statistics that are worth considering. Data available from the CSO show that only 36.5% of disabled people aged between 20 and 64 are in employment, compared to 72.8% of the non-disabled population.

Among people with a disability who are employed, 14.8% are self-employed.

More than one third of people in receipt of disability allowance would like to work, if the conditions were suitable. Approximately three quarters of people of working age with disabilities have acquired their disability between the ages of 18 and 65, many of whom have a prior connection to employment.

NDA research shows people with disabilities experience consistent poverty at more than twice the rate of their non-disabled counterparts. Being at work helps reduce this risk, although we know that disabled people still experience deprivation at a higher rate than the rest of the population.

Article 27 of the UNCRPD recognises the right of persons with disabilities to work, on an equal basis with others. In Ireland, progressive realisation of this article is being driven through the comprehensive employment strategy for people with disabilities, a ten-year whole-of-government approach to improving employment outcomes for disabled people. The national disability inclusion strategy also has a commitment in this regard. The NDA carries out independent annual assessments of progress on both strategies.

The Disability Act 2005 requires a minimum of 3% of public sector employees to be employees with disabilities. The authority monitors compliance with this Part of the Act, Part 5, and our 2020 report shows that the sector has achieved a level of 3.1%. Legislation to increase the minimum target to 6% by 2024 is expected to pass in the coming weeks.

The NDA welcomes progress to date on these strategies and policies but advises that there are some key areas where further focus is required, which could be captured in the final three-year action plan for the comprehensive employment strategy currently in development. These include addressing challenges relating to: career guidance; effective transitions; providing supports and reasonable accommodations in the workplace; a programme of vocational rehabilitation; building the capacity and competence of employers; and ensuring self-employment is a viable option for disabled people.

This year, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth will work to develop a UNCRPD implementation plan, and we recommend that this should include ambitious goals on employment. Relevant mainstream strategies must also include actions to meet the needs of disabled people, as the pathways to work strategy does, for example.

The Employment Equality Acts oblige employers to provide reasonable accommodations to job applicants and employees with disabilities, unless this would impose a disproportionate burden. Many accommodations cost little or nothing to provide and simply require a flexible approach. NDA research on reasonable accommodations has shown that meaningful engagement with individuals is key to creating an inclusive workplace. We welcome the review of the reasonable accommodation fund under way in the Department of Social Protection, as this will be relevant to those cases where a cost is required to provide an accommodation.

Research delivered by the OECD in 2021 in partnership with the NDA highlighted a number of ways in which the State could promote the employment of disabled people, both directly with employers, and through the public employment service. Many of the recommendations made by the OECD are reflected in the Pathways to Work commitments, and we look forward to the implementation of this strategy over its lifetime.

Self-employment and entrepreneurship are also routes to positive employment outcomes for disabled people. Barriers experienced include fears that income earned might put at risk essential benefits, such as the medical card, self-employed individuals not currently being eligible to access the reasonable accommodation funding administered by the State and lower disability awareness in some local enterprise offices.

In recent years, the NDA has engaged with Enterprise Ireland on how its entrepreneur support programme can be made accessible, through universal design, for all those who have a business idea that can be developed to attract external investment, including entrepreneurs with disabilities. Work is also under way at IDA Ireland to ensure that good practice in supporting employment for disabled people in foreign direct investment firms is applied in their Irish locations.

At the start of the comprehensive employment strategy, the Government committed to increase the percentage of people with disabilities in employment to 38% by 2024, from its baseline level of 33%. The 2022 census will tell us much about how close we are to achieving this target. Our analysis shows that more than 15,000 additional disabled people in the 20 to 64 age range must be at work in 2024 relative to 2017 if we are to achieve this target. These numbers show clearly where increased cross-sectoral co-operation is necessary to drive progress. The importance of the forthcoming final three-year action plan for the comprehensive employment strategy cannot be understated.

I would be delighted to answer any follow-up questions committee members may have.

Mr. Alan McGrath

On behalf of SOLAS, I thank the Chair and members for the opportunity to address the committee today and discuss the employment of people with disabilities.

SOLAS has responsibility for funding, planning and co-ordinating further education and training, FET, in Ireland. Through the 16 education and training boards, ETBs, and other providers, the FET system offers access to a wide range of learning opportunities and supports in every corner of the country, regardless of background or formal education level, and a learning pathway to take people as far as they want to go. The FET system currently serves a base of approximately 200,000 unique learners every year. SOLAS also has statutory responsibility for oversight of the national apprenticeship system and serves as the co-ordinating provider for craft apprenticeship in Ireland. A National Apprenticeship Office, which is jointly managed by SOLAS and HEA, has recently been established.

Apprenticeship is a dual model that combines learning in the workplace, at least 50% on the job, and learning delivered by an education and training provider. More than 8,400 employers currently use apprenticeship as a talent pipeline and place a high value on the learning their apprentices complete in the education environment. It is intended that the number of employers using apprenticeship will grow significantly in the coming years, with 10,000 apprentice registrations per annum by 2025, requiring a significant expansion of the system.

There were very encouraging signs in 2021 of increased interest in new apprenticeship opportunities, of which there are currently 65 programmes. There were 8,607 new registrations in 2021, with an overall apprenticeship population of approximately 24,000, far outstripping pre-pandemic levels in 2019. This demand has continued into 2022 with 2,286 registrations so far this year.

Progress has been made in implementing the review of pathways to participation in apprenticeship, which has impacted positively by creating more diversity in apprenticeship; ensuring information on apprenticeships is available via a new website; the promotion of apprenticeship for all through Generation Apprenticeship campaigns; and introducing pre-apprenticeship provision. However, we need to build on this progress and as with all other learning opportunities, access, diversity, and inclusion remain essential within the national apprenticeship system.

The action plan for apprenticeship includes a significant number of actions which will accelerate the number of women apprentices, those with disabilities and other under-represented groups. A dedicated equity of access committee is being established to advise the National Apprenticeship Office in this work. A first step is already under way with introduction of a gender-based bursary for eligible apprenticeship employers.

Of the current live population of 24,035 apprentices, 640 or 2.45% have self-declared a disability. As it is a self-declaration process, this data may be an underestimation. The female apprentice population has grown substantially in recent years and now stands at in excess of 1,500, although more needs to be done to address barriers to entry.

A broader range of programmes in a wide array of industry sectors means there are increased options for all who are interested in starting an apprenticeship. In addition to construction, electrical and engineering-related apprenticeships, we now have a suite of apprenticeship programmes in areas such as tech, biopharma, financial services, healthcare, hospitality and manufacturing. Apprentices can achieve qualifications at levels 5 to 10 on the National Framework of Qualifications and the national apprenticeship system provides multiple lifelong learning opportunities where people can complete advanced apprenticeships as part of their career progression or as a means of changing career.

Fostering inclusion is one of three pillars in the Future FET: Transforming Learning, the national FET strategy. SOLAS has published national system reports as well as a series of specific reports on priority learners, one of which includes information on FET learners who self-declare if they have a disability. In 2018, the first year of this report, 8,644 learners declared a disability. In 2019, this had increased to 13,098. Since the onset of the pandemic in 2020, the numbers of learners from priority cohorts have decreased but this is beginning to change this year as overall participation in the FET system increases.

SOLAS has commissioned an independent evaluation of specialist training provision for persons with a disability, as mentioned by my colleague earlier. That is offered across the FET system. This evaluation, which initially started in 2019 but was paused as a result of the pandemic, is now set to continue into 2022. The review will consider many aspects of the provision, including outcomes for learners who participate in it. It is anticipated the review will be completed by the end of this year.

I hope that provides a brief overview of our work and I look forward to the discussion.

Chairman

I thank everyone for the opening remarks. I will now go to the members as per the rota. I call Senator Martin Conway, who is substituting for Senator Mary Seery Kearney.

Senator Martin Conway

I sincerely thank all of our guests for their contributions, which have been very enlightening. For those who do not know me, I am a Member of the Oireachtas with a declared disability - I have an eyesight difficulty. I am also on the OECD democratic participation advisory panel, which works to see how we can increase the number of people with disabilities who are involved in elective politics throughout the world. It will come as no surprise to the witnesses that the number who are elected to public office is less than 1%. In this country, at this moment in time, I am the only Member of the Oireachtas with a declared disability. Difficulties and challenges employment stretch across all strands, including in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I was very taken with some of the presentations, particularly the presentation from Mr. Flanagan. The CREATE programme sounds very interesting. He might talk us through some of the successes of the CREATE programme. How many people have gone through it and then successfully gone into employment?

Mr. Patrick Flanagan

To clarify, as mentioned in my statement, the goal of the project is not to directly channel individuals into employment opportunities. Over the 12 months of the project, of the 25 or so participants involved, five or six have either gone on to employment or secured employment or additional work opportunities during that time or just after the time they were involved in CREATE. I will not put all of the credit down to CREATE. Our project has worked to develop confidence and to support the participants involved to grow their capacity to seek and find employment, but they have very much been the success story themselves.

Senator Martin Conway

It is basically in its infancy.

Mr. Patrick Flanagan

Very much so, yes. We have been running the programme for 12 months.

Senator Martin Conway

Mr. Murphy mentioned in his opening statement the wage subsidy scheme, which he considers fairly inflexible. Are there wins that can happen quickly if that was to be altered? What would his recommendations be to the Government to make it more flexible? What needs to be done?

Mr. Pat Murphy

As I mentioned, the fact there has to be a contract period of six months or greater to access the scheme should change. It is easier for people to get a leg in the door if it is for a shorter period and the employer is not committing to something for longer than they are willing to. Quite often, once a person gets in and proves themselves, it expands and extends. That is one issue.

Senator Martin Conway

Does Mr. Murphy believe there is what we might call a welfare trap or a difficulty that people with a disability find when they start employment and lose benefits? It is a big issue. At some stage, while there are some benefits that need to remain, such as free travel and that type of thing, there is a point where the benefits have to be lost if somebody is in full-time employment. Can he suggest a mechanism for achieving that balance in trying to ensure somebody with a disability gets into employment and, at the same time, is able to do without the benefits that are unnecessary? Is there a way of achieving that? It is a very tricky issue.

Mr. Pat Murphy

It is very tricky but certain benefits should remain. There should not be a cliff edge. For example, a medical card for a person with a disability is absolute gold. The fear of losing that is hugely prohibitive to their mindset of taking up employment. The key message I would have regarding benefits is that a medical card is gold.

Mr. Porter is in a similar position at the moment, having taken up employment. We are now trying to argue for him to keep his medical card, which is not encouraging for people.

Senator Martin Conway

It should not even be an issue for discussion, to be honest. Obviously, there is the issue of access to transport. I represent a rural constituency and, as we know, to represent people in politics, I have to get places. I do not drive so I know as well as anybody the importance of good quality public transport. While a lot of progress has been made, we have a long way to go in that regard.

On a question to the NDA, does Dr. Hartney feel the authority has done enough to help CREATE smooth access to employment, as the State agency, funded by the taxpayer, that is responsible for disability policy?

Dr. Aideen Hartney

To clarify, the NDA is an advisory body and we do not have direct responsibility for delivering or creating policy.

Senator Martin Conway

Its role is clear. It advises the Government. It is extremely well funded to advise the Government and to come up with proper action plans. Does Dr. Hartney think it has failed in that duty when it comes to the employment of people with disabilities?

Dr. Aideen Hartney

Our role is to advise Government and we work very closely with the comprehensive employment strategy implementation group, which is chaired independently, and also the national disability inclusion strategy group, which is chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. We work closely in providing support and guidance to Departments and public bodies but, ultimately, the delivery of policy is a matter for those public bodies. Of course, we recognise there is still much to be done in the space and all our efforts in terms of guidance and the analysis of statistics are on highlighting those gaps and indicating where good practice could be applied, whether that is learning from national initiatives or international initiatives. We are very keen to see the final three-year action plan of the comprehensive employment strategy be implemented and achieve the goals of that strategy. I agree there is certainly room for further work in this regard.

Senator Martin Conway

I look at the NDA and I see areas where it does great work, for example, the universal design unit, which is fantastic and is a model throughout Europe in how to achieve universal design. However, there are other areas, frankly, where it has let down people with disabilities, and this is one of them. It has not been in any way strong when it comes to arguing this point. The facts speak for themselves. We are one of the worst countries in Europe when it comes to the employment of people with disabilities. I believe the State agency that is funded to write the policy and advise Government has failed in that area.

Dr. Aideen Hartney

We are not funded to write the policy. We are funded to inform and advise it with evidence and informed advice.

Senator Martin Conway

It is the same principle.

Dr. Aideen Hartney

We work very hard on that with all relevant stakeholders. As we have been hearing throughout the morning, the question of employment is a broad area requiring multiple solutions, but the creation of policy and the delivery of policy is the responsibility of Departments.

Senator Martin Conway

How much of the NDA budget is channelled to the area of employment? This is the single biggest challenge people with disabilities have in this country. I reiterate that we are the worst in Europe - we are the laggards in Europe - when it comes to employing people with disabilities and giving them opportunities. How much of the NDA budget is channelled into writing or creating, or whatever it is that it does, policy in this area?

Dr. Aideen Hartney

A significant element of our work programme each year is involved in supporting employment as a theme. That involves research to inform various policy actors and the development of guidance, but also all our work on working committees and interdepartmental working groups to guide, inform and influence the development of policy. Unfortunately, we do not have responsibility or powers to impose, direct or create policy. We advise. Nonetheless, this is a very significant strategic priority for the NDA and we have a number of staff dedicated to that. One of them is my colleague, Ms Wilkinson, who leads out on that area as well.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I thank the witnesses for presenting to the committee. As we know, the employment rate for people with disabilities in Ireland is extremely low. It is only about half that of the general population. From listening to people who contact my office or talking to people in the disabled persons' organisations, one of the biggest problems is the attitude of employers. They tend to see the disability rather than the ability of the person. How do we make employers more aware of their obligations under the employment equality Acts and the UNCRPD?

A person I know with an intellectual disability qualified as a nurse and she went to work but she was failed in her probation year, which prevented her pursuing her career because she was not given the understanding and support she needed. She told me that she could do everything any other person could do but it just took her longer. She was not treated with any empathy or support, which worries me for the people in the profession. I thought she had a lot more empathy than the people who were employing her. It did not destroy her confidence, but it knocked her confidence big time. What can be done to stop that happening and to put in supports?

Many of the witnesses have talked about reasonable accommodation. I was a teacher before I entered politics and if a child in primary school was assessed as needing a particular type of assistive technology, the technology followed him or her into secondary school. It was attached to the child rather than the school. A lot of witnesses made the point that the employer provides supports but the supports do not follow the employee if he or she moves on to a different employment. Could that be easily addressed?

I also want to ask the witnesses from the NDA about the employee targets for the public sector, which are to increase to 6%. Is that ambitious enough? Should it not be higher than that?

Another of the barriers the witnesses referred to regarding people taking up employment was that disabled people are fearful of losing their benefits such as free travel and the medical card. For those who want to enter self-employment, anyone who has an idea to set up a business should have tailored supports to help them do that. What happens is that the back-to-work supports have a timescale and everyone is supposed to fit into that. However, a disabled person or someone who suffers from chronic pain may take longer to get a business established, so they need supports to continue, but because that is not available to them they have to give up on the idea. That is very unfair.

Mr. Pat Murphy

Regarding the individual Deputy Tully spoke about who took longer to do the work, that is where the wage subsidy scheme kicks in. It looks at productivity shortfalls because of a disability and compensates the employer. That is why I highlighted the wage subsidy scheme as being a cornerstone to facilitating employers to employ people with disabilities. That might be a solution in that regard.

When we speak to employers' they have never heard of the wage subsidy scheme. We have to introduce it to them. We have to explain it to them and walk them through it. The awareness out there is terrible on the various schemes that exist. When we explain it to employers, walk them through the process and produce the application form, most of them come on board but there is no doubt that there are a few out there who will employ someone where it will not turn out well. An awareness campaign on the wage subsidy scheme is definitely something that should be rolled out.

Mr. Patrick Flanagan

It is very important that disabled people would be afforded more opportunities to explore self-employment and entrepreneurship. They are some of the most creative and innovative people you could meet. That is the case for many reasons, not least the different ways in which we have to adapt and navigate society and our daily lives in order to be able to live independently and to be able to live the lives we choose to lead.

Reference was made to the person who became a nurse. With regard to employers, the first point that is essential is that disability equality training is provided, not disability awareness training. We see that as being important in addressing attitudes that should not still but do prevail in society.

The wage subsidy scheme is a very negative one that focuses on what people cannot do and deficiencies and inefficiencies. It is not inefficiency; it is a different way of working. People do different things. With regard to employer confidence, in any situation, whether it is a business, health or building expert, we are asking them to suddenly be an expert in disability. They will never be an expert in disability unless they have either a disability themselves or the lived experience of it. We consider that supports such as the wage subsidy scheme, assistive technology and reasonable accommodations are essential and that they are provided through and to disabled persons themselves, and that they are empowered and they are made the experts in what they need. There is no onus on employers to have to know what to ask or what to provide. All they need to do is say: "What do you need, what do you have and how can we facilitate that?" If I have all the accommodations I need, the medical supports I need and I have confidence that I will not lose supports, if somebody wants to offer me a job, I can turn around straight away and say, that is fine, I can start on a particular day and I need the employer to be prepared to accept that I am bringing X, Y and Z with me, and the employer may need to provide one or two things in addition. If they are already provided and I can access them, then the employer will not have the issue of delays in accessing grants or having to retrospectively apply for funding. Putting the disabled person at the centre and at the start of everything that we do would lead to great strides being made in terms of beginning to address a number of issues that are being raised.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Flanagan very much. I call on Ms Hartney to respond.

Dr. Aideen Hartney

I will answer the question on the public sector targets and then I will hand over to my colleague, Ms Wilkinson, on the other questions the Deputy raised. The minimum target as currently described in the legislation is 3%. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, across the entire public sector the average is 3.1%, as of 2020. There are individual Departments and public bodies that are considerably exceeding this target, and some of them are already exceeding the revised 6% target. That target can only be achieved through a mix of recruitment and also developing inclusive and diverse work places where employees feel comfortable sharing their disability status, many of whom might not have felt comfortable doing so to date. It will be a mix of ways in which the 6% target can be achieved. It is to be achieved by 2024, which is only two and a half years away at this stage. While there may understandably be a feeling that it is not ambitious enough, at the same time we do not want to create targets that are so daunting that people feel that they might not have any hope of reaching them.

Another way of looking at it is to look at the other statistic I mentioned in the opening remarks, that 15,000 more people with disabilities need to be in the workforce in Ireland by 2024 if we are to achieve an overall employment rate of 38% of people with disabilities in employment. That breakdown incorporates 7,500 people in the public sector. The public sector would do half of the heavy lifting on achieving that target. That is probably even more than would be fair for the public sector in terms of its overall share of the Irish workforce. The legislation also provides for these targets to be revised, reviewed and reset by the Minister at intervals. We would advise that they are regularly reviewed in line with the labour market conditions applying at the time. I will now hand over to Ms Wilkinson.

Ms Marion Wilkinson

I want to address some of the questions Deputy Tully brought up in two ways. One is around the research that the NDA has conducted on the issue of supporting people at work. One of the important features we have in our work is how we consult with people about what the research is telling us. In 2020 we did a piece of work around reasonable accommodation.

We looked not only at good practice but also at the cases on which the Workplace Relations Commission had adjudicated. A number of important features came out of that. First, a large number of employers are unaware of their responsibilities around equal status legislation. Second, there are the difficulties that some people have gone through in accessing the accommodation they need. That is for a couple of reasons, and includes cases where people do not know precisely what accommodation would work well for them in their place of work, which can come about from returning to work after acquiring a disability. That led the NDA to produce a paper on the gap in the Irish system as regards vocational rehabilitation. These issues coalesce because there is a huge gap in awareness among employers. In some regards, there are also attitudinal barriers.

As my colleagues mentioned, the review of the reasonable accommodation fund currently taking place presents an opportunity. Some of the commentary and suggestions made by the NDA to inform the review have been reflected in the comments this morning about funding the person who requires a piece of equipment, technology or accommodation. As Dr. Hartney said, not all accommodations cost money. Flexible working approaches and reduced hours can be one solution. Another solution is to support the individual using some of the apparatus that is already in place, such as the IBEC-ICTU reasonable accommodation passport our colleagues spoke about, where somebody only looks for a support once and then that travels with him or her. All of those measures can be put in place. The NDA has made recommendations about what they would look like to make the service and approach more seamless.

The case raised by the Deputy, where the reasonable accommodation fund is not made available to people in the public sector, also arose in the NDA consultations. That issue needs to be addressed. I have given an outline of some of the commentary on NDA contributions.

Deputy Holly Cairns

I thank all of the witnesses for taking time out of their busy lives to attend. In particular, I am delighted that representatives from the National Learning Network in Bantry could join us. I am aware of the incredible work the organisation does in west Cork and the significant difference its work makes not only in the lives of students but also in the broader community.

As previous speakers noted, statistics show that Ireland has a disgracefully low employment rate for people with disabilities. Today's discussion and the previous session on this topic illustrate the realities for disabled people whose rights are being restricted and eroded continuously.

I will touch on the conversation about the disability allowance. Senator Conway argued that this benefit has to be reduced at a certain point. I do not believe that is necessarily the case. We know that having a disability creates added costs, which are estimated to be between €10,000 and €12,000 a year. I am sure everybody knows that the cost is higher than that. Time and again, we hear people express the fear that they will lose the allowance. The Senator also mentioned the medical card. It is acknowledged that this is a serious barrier which must be removed. We know there is an added cost, so people should be able to keep their disability allowance.

Central to this debate is the appreciation that all people are entitled to meaningful employment as a foundation for independent living. People have the right to live independently. I will first ask Mr. Flanagan a few questions to help us understand the underlying issues. His observations on Ireland's report on the UNCRPD contains an incredible amount of insight and examples that address that area. It mentions that the State excludes disabled people from certain careers, for example, in the Defence Forces, the Garda Síochána and the National Ambulance Service. This exclusion feeds into the notion and expectation that disabled people occupy jobs and not careers. I ask Mr. Flanagan to elaborate on that point and the implications of that kind of exclusion. What should the Government do differently?

Mr. Flanagan highlighted that time efficiency is the greatest barrier, one that is often cited as a reason for a disabled person not getting a job. I ask him to discuss that a little in order that members can fully understand it as an obstacle. Does it have to do with misunderstanding and assumptions? I ask Mr. Flanagan to elaborate.

The importance of personal assistance support and the challenge in accessing it come up very often at this committee. I ask Mr. Flanagan to give us an overview of the personal assistance system and how difficult it is to get funding for personal assistants and to recruit them.

Mr. Murphy discussed the importance of building links with local employers in west Cork to create employment opportunities. Will he outline how those relationships were developed? Did the National Learning Network have to overcome or address any assumptions or obstacles on the part of businesses and companies? If so, how were they overcome? What advice would Mr. Murphy give to other organisations or individuals seeking employment?

The ILMI outlined that the lack of public transport, especially in rural areas, is a significant barrier. The committee has heard about this issue previously. Can we get a sense, perhaps from lived experience, of how this barrier impacts on people? Will Mr. Porter give us some more information on his experience of the training course and outline how it helped him?

The action plan for apprenticeship has increased inclusion as a main objective, as does the further and training strategies of SOLAS. Mr. McGrath mentioned that only 2.5% of current apprentices have a self-declared disability and the current percentage in further education and training is unclear. Will he elaborate on the practical measures SOLAS is currently engaged in to increase the number of disabled people who can undertake an apprenticeship and-or further education and training courses this year?

Mr. Patrick Flanagan

On the exclusion of disabled people from certain careers, this is an explicit example of discrimination. One career that comes to mind is the Defence Forces. If Ireland had to defend itself against a hostile invasion tomorrow - I hope we will not have to do so but, as we can see, there is plenty of hostility in the world - and I wanted to be a member of the Defence Forces, I have a severe physical impairment and although I may look normal, I cannot hold up a gun so I would not do much good on the front line. However, I would like to imagine that I might be able to help with strategy. If I wanted to be a garda, there is no reason to prevent me from becoming an IT expert or criminology expert. If I wanted to be part of the National Ambulance Service, I might be an excellent co-ordinator or communicator or I might be great at organising the movement or distribution of services. To explicitly say that these areas of work are automatically off limits to disabled people is unnecessary and unfair.

There are certain jobs that disabled people cannot do. We are not going to look to do those jobs because we know ourselves when we physically cannot do something. An example that springs to mind involves a friend of mine whom I have known for years. I hope he will not mind me referring to him. He is a huge fan of Airsoft and paintball. He has a similar condition to me and uses a powered wheelchair. It has an incredible tank that has been built up over his chair. He has travelled all over Europe to play paintball and Airsoft. If this country was down to its last few guys, I am sure he would happily go to the front line and change the paint balls to live ammunition. He would do what he needed to do. My point is that there is always a way. There should be no explicit barriers to deter disabled people from taking up roles in various areas.

On time efficiency being the biggest barrier, that is an issue for the individual. An individual assigned a piece of work may be concerned that they will not get it done in time to meet a deadline or in the time they wanted to complete it. It is an issue for a reason and a reality but it can often be the perception of employers. If it takes a disabled person half a day longer to complete a report, the employer should ask the employee to get the report done half a day earlier. If there is a more pressing time issue, perhaps someone could assist the employee. If the task cannot be completed in time, the person should be given different work to do.

There is always a way to adapt to maximise the ability of somebody rather than focusing on the limitations. Time efficiency is valuable perhaps in respect of time efficiency travel. I was here late today by ten or 15 minutes which was due to traffic more than anything else. I spent a great amount of time this morning trying to ensure I would be on time or early and sometimes things come up and just get in the way, and perhaps more so for myself than for somebody else. That is something that we just have to adapt to, be aware of, and be willing to accommodate. If we are willing to accommodate the issues, there is no issue.

Can Deputy Cairns remind me of her third question, please?

Deputy Holly Cairns

I believe it was about the personal assistant, PA, support. It is something that comes up a great deal and it can be a difficult process to get that for a person.

Mr. Patrick Flanagan

Behind me on my right here is Bruno, my personal assistant who has worked with me for the past three years. I would not be here talking to the committee today without him. He helped me get up this morning, to get into the van, and drove me here. It was not his fault that we were late but it really was the traffic lights. I forgot my laptop and he ran back outside and was able to get it so I was not here even later. Without Bruno and the team of PAs that I have working with me, I would not have gone to college and might not have gone through secondary school education as easily as I did. I would not have the life I have now, which is a very personal observation. It is the same for anybody else who has a personal assistant service.

There are so many people who do not have the level of assistance and support they need. The average amount of personal assistance per day that a disabled person in Ireland has is 47 minutes. I will not even go in to what people need because it is so unique and different but there is such a small number of people who have the level of support equivalent to what I or some of my peers would have in order to be able to live independently on their terms. It is just not good enough. Without it people cannot live their lives. It is as simple as that. No statistics or testimonies should be needed to justify the increase in spending or the provision of what is needed for people to be able to live their lives because that is a basic human right.

Chairman

I call Mr. Murphy to speak now, please.

Mr. Pat Murphy

I thank the Chairman and Deputy Cairns for her questions. I will copper-fasten what Mr. Flanagan has said. In a previous life I managed the Centre for Independent Living in Limerick. Having a PA is transformative and it allows people to live full inclusive lives and I echo all of his sentiments in that regard.

On the employer’s side of the Deputy’s question, we work very hard to build relationships. We are involved in chambers of commerce, business associations and, perhaps, in rural areas it is easier to build those links than in urban areas. We work very hard at getting to know the main employers in an area and building very strong relationships with the management and human resources, HR, structures in their organisations. It becomes a trust thing. As I said, we have quite an extensive database of employers who we can call upon for employment and work experience options, and so on. We work hard at this.

More generally speaking, there should be more national awareness campaigns around employer’s obligations and the benefits in employing people with disabilities within their organisation, in the diversity that brings and how it helps their organisations. Does that answer the Deputy’s question?

Deputy Holly Cairns

Yes, absolutely. I am conscious that I am using a great deal of time. Has the National Learning Network encountered any difficulties with businesses in respect of presumptions, or incorrect presumptions, or those kinds of things?

Mr. Pat Murphy

Absolutely, yes. There is much stereotyping going on out there and presumed obstacles, barriers and issues which are not issues but are in the minds of people and employers. This reflects society.

Deputy Holly Cairns

Mr. Murphy believes that an awareness campaign would very much help with that.

Mr. Pat Murphy

It certainly would. What was the Deputy's question on transport, please?

Deputy Holly Cairns

I wanted to ask Mr. Porter if he has any experience of that and how he found access to transport. Does he use public transport in west Cork to get to work or is he driving?

Mr. Alan Porter

I am living in the same town at the current time so it is a seven-minute walk to where I work. Before I moved to Bantry I was living in Skibbereen.

Deputy Holly Cairns

Mr Porter was living where he was working then, as well.

Mr. Alan Porter

Yes, temporarily but with my current employer it has been on and off for the past three or four years. During the time I was living in Skibbereen I was heavily dependent on rural transport. Personally, I did not run into any issues with that service but I cannot speak for everybody.

Deputy Holly Cairns

That is great.

Mr. Alan Porter

It was nice having that service because I have actually walked from Skibbereen to Bantry and it is a long process. I do not believe that I could do it twice a day, five days a week. It is very good to have that service but, as I have said, I do not really need it now.

My apologies but what was the Deputy’s other question, please?

Deputy Holly Cairns

I was going to ask Mr. Porter to elaborate a little on the course he did in the National Learning Network and how it helped him?

Mr. Alan Porter

I actually did two. I did the employment skills training and the employer-based training also. We are so similar as nations in that we may look alike and speak the same language but when I first got here, culturally I found it was something of a challenge and for many years I struggled to fit in. My time with NLN helped me to assimilate better, granted me the ability to function more in society, and in a better way than I did before. It has worked out great with my current employer as it keeps asking me to come back. I do not know why but I must be doing something right.

Mr. Pat Murphy

Can I just clarify for Deputy Cairns the issue of transport from Skibbereen to Bantry referred to by Mr. Porter. That was a locally organised service where Youthreach, CoAction, ourselves and RehabCare came together to join with Cork Local Link. That was self-created and was not a public service but was something that we had to create to overcome a difficulty.

Chairman

I call Mr. McGrath to speak now, please.

Mr. Alan McGrath

Apprenticeship is essentially a programme of employment. To become an apprentice, you must be employed before you are in the education system for part of your programme. The good news is that they are employed.

I was struck where jobs and not careers were mentioned by Deputy Tully. The aim of the programme is to set a person up for a career. If one is an electrical apprentice or is in one of the new information technology, IT, programmes, the goal is to set one up with an employer to make a career in that area. Obviously, people change and continue to grow and that is something that we are working on.

A key part of having more people with disabilities in apprenticeships and, in further education and training, FET, goes back to Deputy Tully’s question about raising awareness with employers, which is completely crucial. A good bit of work has been done but a job of work still needs to be done. The plan on the apprenticeship side is to engage with employers this year and to set a baseline, for example, which is one of our aims for participation for people with disabilities. We need to understand what industry and employment require and are saying and we need to understand then the legislative requirements for them to support someone participating in employment. That will be done.

As to some practical measures, with the National Apprenticeship Office, which is a construct of SOLAS and the Higher Education Authority, HEA, together, is setting up an equity of access committee to support and advise it on delivering the action plan for apprenticeship recommendations, which includes specific actions around disability. That will be important because it will have the key people telling that office what is required.

On broader supports, incentives have worked in other areas of apprenticeships. During the pandemic, for example, we introduced an incentive for people to be employed and that could be used to increase participation with disabilities. I am glad to say that there is an action in there to develop a bursary for people with disabilities, as there is for gender bursaries.

On the further education and training side, we fund education and training boards to support all learners, including people with disabilities. We are trying to embed universal design for learning, which was mentioned by colleagues and which involves removing as many barriers as possible so the system is accessible to all. We also provide wraparound supports where required, including personal assistance and those kinds of things. The fund for students with disabilities has been introduced for post-leaving certificate and other learners in further education and training. In 2020, we introduced a mitigating disadvantage fund.

On the transport comment, it is not a replacement but during Covid and shut-down when people had to go more or less remote and online, the mitigating disadvantage fund made sure devices were available to all learners to ensure they could continue their education, engage with their tutors and other learners. Those are some of the practical measures introduced in the past year or two.

Senator Erin McGreehan

The witnesses are welcome. Of all the topics we discuss at the Joint Committee on Disability Matters, employment is the one that gets me the most because it crosses everything. It is about valuing yourself. As someone who was out of work and looking for a job for a long time, I know it gets you down and makes you feel you are not there and not at the races. To use the word they use now, it triggers me. It is important that we work hard to listen and learn as much as possible.

So much has been covered this morning. What are the witnesses' thoughts on moving disability payments from the Department of Social Protection to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment when you are working? What do they think about a cost of disability payment to enable people to go out to work? We know there is a higher cost of going to work for those with a disability.

My next comments are addressed to Mr. Flanagan. There are fantastic programmes throughout the country. I have a major problem with the fact it is personality-led. Mr. Flanagan is leading it in his area. There is no streamlined focus nationally. Mr. Porter did well and is lucky he went to Bantry. In other areas there is not so much because it is personality. Mr. Porter worked and got the bus service but there is a lack of streamlining. It is confusing. There are EmployAbility, Intreo and the witnesses' organisations. Where does one go? There is a need for possibly the NDA to look at this so, for someone who needs help and asks where they go, it is not boxed off in loads of different areas.

Mr. McGrath mentioned the gender-specific funding and the ongoing review on disability. Is that review looking at specific funding for positively discriminating towards people with disability in apprenticeships. In the SOLAS report, there are funds for students with disabilities of nearly €400,000. What is that fund? Is it supports, assistive technology or grant aid?

Probably because of the confusion and lack of streamlining, there are huge barriers to people entering education and training. I have a situation in which a young woman is battling with the HSE for funding and supports to get into a training course. Therein lies another problem. She has the training course. If we had a streamlined system, a person with disabilities who needs to get to point A would not have to beg the HSE for something and make a business case. Maybe that is a question for the NDA as well. We are looking at personality all the time, who you meet along the way someone and if you have someone who is conscious of the needs of someone with disabilities.

I ask representatives from the NDA if there is a breakdown of the type of disabilities across the public sector. Is there any accountability or has the NDA looked at making people accountable where they fail to make reasonable accommodations in the public sector? I have seen many cases where people are not getting reasonable accommodations in our public sector and Civil Service. They are afraid to go to their trade unions or management because there will be prejudice against them. They have nowhere to go. Is there something the authority has looked at to make the public sector accountable and not allow prejudice towards people who try to make the sector accountable?

Dr. Aideen Hartney

I thank the Senator for those questions. On the previous discussion, as well as awareness-raising campaigns that have been mentioned, it is worth thinking about the area of peer-to-peer support for employers, where they can get advice and information from other employers and organisations and where they may feel more confident and at ease asking questions about their fears or attitudes. There is a programme called employers for change being funded on a year-to-year basis by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. The research we funded with the OECD last year talked about how the area of peer-to-peer support is important to employers across Europe and how a scaled and sustainable solution in the Irish context would be well worth pursuing.

Turning to Senator McGreehan's questions, there is no breakdown of disability type across public sector figures because it is a voluntary sharing of disability data under Part 5 of the Disability Act. We collect anonymised data. We do not want to make it challenging for people to share their disability and once you start breaking down by disability type, that is a risk. We are in the process of reviewing the Part 5 data-collection process and will be piloting new ways of collecting data over the next 18 months and new ways of collecting more information, to see what is feasible in this regard.

We can do a breakdown of disability type in employment from CSO or census figures. The latest data is from 2016 but will be refreshed later this year. It shows that people with intellectual disabilities have the lowest rate of employment while people with deafness or a serious hearing impairment have the highest rate of employment among people with disability.

We have monitoring duty in relation to public sector employment. We do not have powers of compulsion or enforcement. That is often a point of frustration for many. We engage with public bodies consistently throughout the year, particularly where they are falling below the compliance target. We engage with them intensively to offer guidance and support on how they can increase performance in relation to Part 5. Where employees feel they have been discriminated against or reasonable accommodation has not been applied, they, like private sector employees, have the option of taking the case to the Workplace Relations Commission. We appreciate that is a daunting prospect for people and a route they may not wish to go down, but those routes are open.

As my colleague, Ms Wilkinson, said earlier, the ability to apply for reasonable accommodation funding within the public sector would be well worth exploring as part of this review because it would be a further support for public sector employees. Our approach is to guide, advise, support and provide examples of good practice so employers can see what has been achieved and accomplished in the past and therefore understand what is feasible for themselves.

The Senator spoke about the need for streamlining and joined-up thinking. We are involved in a number of cross-departmental working groups that are being convened to achieve just that. For example, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is convening a working group on transitions. It also has a working group on transport supports and assistive technology supports, all in the context of employment. We sit on these groups in our advisory capacity and we conduct research to help inform the deliberations of the group. That is the kind of work the NDA does, seeing the practices, challenges and barriers that are out there, and we carry that knowledge in all our work and from group to group. That helps with some of that knowledge transfer and streamlined thinking the Senator is calling for. It is important that the departmental actors can move forward on solution-finding. It is ongoing work.

Mr. Alan McGrath

The answer to the Senator's question is "Yes". There is a specific action in the Government's plan for apprenticeships to support people with disabilities and other priority groups, which may include lone parents and people from ethnic minorities. A bursary will be developed and provided for that. In broader terms, there is support in further education and training in two ways. One is system-level supports to help embed an inclusive system that removes the barriers at source for people accessing education and training. Outside of that there are more individual supports, whether personal support or other learning supports that are required. Ms Doherty can give a bit of detail on that. Regarding the public sector, there is a target in the action plan for apprenticeships to recruit 750 apprentices per annum through the public sector system. That includes public sector bodies like county councils. The Department of Education has also hired people in recent years doing IT jobs, as electricians, or whatever the case may be. The plan is very clear that that will go up dramatically to 750 a year.

Ms Roisin Doherty

We are looking at it from a systems perspective but critical to that is ensuring there is a commitment at a high strategic level. I am delighted that there is an inclusion goal in both the Department's strategy and the FET strategy because that allows for resources to be dedicated to it. Without having that at that strategic level it would not get achieved quite as well. The question is what we have done or are trying to do to make it more inclusive. That was a recommendation of the NDA's report with the OECD, to make sure the system is more inclusive. We have taken a number of measures such as implementing universal design across the entire system. We have funded a number of organisations to support us in that regard which have that expertise. We also had an interdepartmental, cross-community and cross-sector committee to help us and guide us in that approach. We now have that embedded in the system through our funding systems and significant numbers of practitioners have been trained in the universal design digital badge. We are working with UCD and the Association for Higher Education Access and Disability, AHEAD, this year to put in place a digital badge for learner support.

What Mr. McGrath was saying is that we ultimately need to move a system where everybody feels they belong. The one barrier to participation is when people feel it is not their place and do not fit in but if they feel they fit in they will thrive. It is about that ethos. As Mr. McGrath said, significant developments have been made in that area. The fund for students with disabilities is now €4 million and the learner support general allocation is €6 million. That is integrating the universal design approach for engagement with learning representation and that model of learning. The mitigating education disadvantage fund will roll out this year as well.

We also fund other organisations to help the system become more inclusive. This year we are working with Down Syndrome Ireland because we have identified that certain priority cohorts are over-represented in some of our programmes, such as the literacy programmes. People are participating in those programmes for ten years to maintain their skill. We are trying to break that cycle and put in the supports at an earlier stage, such as when people are transitioning from school. We have six programmes rolling out in a number of counties, funded by ETBs, with regard to Down Syndrome Ireland. We are delighted to work on that. We also work with Dyslexia Association of Ireland and make sure supports are available for further education. The Trinity College intellectual disabilities programme has been successful in demonstrating that there is progression.

I know the focus of today's meeting today's focus is employment but a factor that has come to our attention over the last number of years is the fact that one in every two people is blocked from participation due to a lack of digital skills, numeracy and literacy. We have a new ten-year adult literacy, numeracy and digital literacy strategy, which will ensure those who are locked out of any participation can now progress, have full participation and become more familiar with literacy, numeracy and digital skills. It is not just about that but about access to digital assistive technology that will help as well.

Mr. Patrick Flanagan

I agree with the point that many of the services and supports we rely on come from Departments or organisations that are personality-led, and that there are too many of them. That is true with regard to getting work supports, transport or PAs. There are too many different areas. To standardise that and enshrine that in law and policy would be a huge step forward. As I am sure members will be aware, ILMI has been very prominent in the last number of years in the #PASNOW campaign and the drive to legally recognise the right of disabled people to personal assistants. Actions like that, as well other key supports beyond that, would go a long way to normalising and equalising what is provided to people because at the moment there are too many personalities and too many Departments. It is too disjointed. The personal assistance service comes from the HSE while the disability allowance comes from the Department of Social Protection. I imagine any other employment supports come from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, as well as the Department of Social Protection. Transport issues are dealt with by the Department of Transport. I may have to go back to the Department of Education regarding my qualifications and if there are any issues with that I have to raise them with the Department of Justice. It is a maze or a crazy labyrinth we have to navigate to get any of the supports we want, particularly with regard to employment. It is a major issue.

The Senator asked about moving the disability allowance to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. If it was moved to another Department we would still have work around other areas such as the HSE. We need something like a centralised Department for disability, where all these key supports and actions could be taken in relation to disability. That Department could support and advise other Departments, much in the same way the NDA does, but with that legislative power Senator Conway spoke about earlier. That might be a suitable approach.

Mr. Pat Murphy

I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Flanagan. There is a plethora of stuff to deal with and even as someone working in the area, it is hard to navigate and keep abreast of.

It is changing. There is ongoing change all of the time so it is very hard for an ordinary Joe Soap on the street who is looking to get access to something to find out where you get it. It is really hard. What is the solution? I was listening to the NDA representatives talking about the cross-departmental group they are working on. Perhaps something may come out of that but, as has been said, there are so many actors on the stage that it is very difficult to get that type of joined-up thinking. I do not have a solution but there is absolutely no doubt that it is a problem. I have one suggestion but I can make it at the end.

Deputy Seán Canney

I have been listening to what has been said and I have heard a number of words such as "exploring", "reviewing" and "piloting". Mr. Flanagan spoke about the fragmented approach to the delivery of employment services for people with disabilities. As a public representative, if I was approached by people with disabilities about finding work, which I have been, I would not know where to steer them to get advice and to get onto a system. We have a fragmented approach. We have people sitting on bodies, boards and whatever else, going to meetings and bringing experience from one meeting to another but, ultimately, there is too much of that going on. Too much money is being spent on all of the policies, reviews and whatever else without actually getting results. The NDA indicated that there must be 15,000 additional disabled people between the ages of 20 and 64 in work by the end of 2024. We will probably have to wait until the analysis is done on the 2022 census to see where we are going with that. It beggars belief that we do not have a system to look at all of the money that is going out and the outcomes we are getting from it. Who controls the annual statistics on employment within the disability sector? If we have to wait for the census every five years, things will pass us by and we will end up analysing the results for the five years until the next census comes along without actually doing work.

SOLAS has put a number of apprenticeships out there and is dealing with them. There are additional apprenticeships in play in biopharmaceuticals, the digital area and so on, but the information is not out there. People do not know about these things. I do not want another agency hired in to do something about that. It is time to stop posturing about these things. We need a system whereby each year all bodies getting funding in respect of employment or whatever it is return a report to the funding body detailing the outcomes, that is, the number of people who benefited and by how much. It should include details on whether the employment is temporary, whether it is part-time or full-time and the area of work involved. We need hard facts to understand what is going on here.

From talking to people who have disabilities, it is my understanding that they just do not know where to go. It is important that we grasp this now. We have to measure what we are doing rather than keep doing what we are doing, which is, from what I have heard all morning, reviewing, piloting, exploring and putting together working groups and strategies. If that man in Bantry, whose name eludes me at the moment, is not there to help the people down there and if he is telling me that he is finding it hard to get information on how to deal with people despite him being at the coalface, we are really and truly not going anywhere fast. We have targets to meet but it seems we are not setting any annual targets. We are not measuring we have actually achieved the targets we have. We are not taking any corrective action where they are not being achieved. We are spending a lot of money on nothing. At the end of the day, we need to make sure that, if there is money available for apprenticeships, there are banners outside of SOLAS offices saying that people with disabilities are welcome on courses and will be assisted. There needs to be a contact number given and people need to be brought in, interviewed and put on an apprenticeship course. It is as simple as that. We have to put the resources into that rather than into reviews, pilots, explorations, strategies and meetings all over the place. I am frustrated listening to what I have heard this morning. I feel for the people who have disabilities if they are listening to this.

We have a number of witnesses here today. They all have a niche in this game but the people who really matter are those with the disabilities. From a Government point of view, at this stage, we have to put our hands up and say that, because a person with a disability has additional expenses of up to €12,000 a year, if they are brave enough and want to take up employment, we will not cut their disability allowance until we know they are in gainful employment. We need to make sure that happens. We want to transition people away from being supported by the State. Under the UN convention, they have a right to work. We need to do that not by talking about barriers, strategies, reviews and whatever, but by getting on with the bloody job we are supposed to do. I will leave it at that. Perhaps the witnesses will have some comments for me.

Dr. Aideen Hartney

Capturing and updating data is challenging and time-consuming. Obviously, the census is only taken every five years. The 2022 census will tell us how far we have travelled since 2016 and how much further we have to go before the end of the lifetime of the comprehensive employment strategy. However, there are ways of measuring progress between censuses. There are other survey instruments, such as the survey on income and living conditions and the labour force survey, that are carried out at other intervals and which can be used as a check. The Central Statistics Office is also engaged in a number of pathfinder projects with relevant Departments to use administrative data that would not be captured in something like the census to give us a picture of what is out there. There are other data points that can be used as indicators of progress or lack thereof. Part of our role is to explore and look at these. One of the ongoing challenges is just getting public bodies to capture and gather data about disability. We are very much encouraging all public bodies to continue to do that. The next three-year action plan for the comprehensive employment strategy is being developed at the moment. There is a push to include some clear targets in that. I hope we will see good progress in that.

On the range of different Departments and public bodies that people need to engage with, that is indeed challenging and frustrating. It is borne out of the Government policy of mainstreaming whereby every Department should offer its services for all who live in Ireland regardless of ability or disability so that it is not deemed a specialist service to offer. That is what lies behind the principle of universal design. I will pass to my colleague, Ms Wilkinson, who has some examples of good practice with regard to referrals and protocols between some public bodies that could be applied more widely.

Ms Marion Wilkinson

There has been NDA work in this area and the OECD made some findings last year. Bearing in mind that, as Dr. Hartney said, the Government strategy of mainstreaming is really important, the OECD suggested that the main port of call when looking for work, further education or training is when you access your Intreo office. At that point, you are referred to what is available in your region or if you aspire to further or higher education, guidance is provided.

However, the clear recommendation colleagues here have spoken about is that there are referral processes from Intreo, SOLAS and further education and training providers and that there are protocols established that support people where they are, that is, what level of educational attainment they have and where they want to go. One of the key findings from our work is exactly as Deputy Canney mentioned, that is, that people are unaware of what is available. When the NDA spoke to SOLAS about the review of specialist training provision, we mentioned how people are referred to specialist training because it is a key part of the transition from education into further education and training, jumping from whatever one's QQI level is on leaving school and having a direct transition pathway into what is available locally that one can be supported to take. We understand absolutely that there is a body of work to make that a practical, seamless direction for people with disabilities and their families. In that regard, the NDA is working on a piece of work on career guidance in order that the route into employment starts not the day someone leaves school but a lot earlier in that process.

Mr. Patrick Flanagan

I agree with the point Deputy Canney made about the need for things to be much clearer to disabled people. Mainstreaming is both a positive and a negative in this regard. Ideally, the disabled person just applies for a job and goes into whatever service or department he or she needs to get support or information, the same as anybody else does. The issue is that disabled people do not come from a point of equality at the start. If things are provided for us that allow us to go in as equals to seek those supports, if we know we are not disadvantaged by our economic status or our current education status, and if what we need is afforded to us before we go in there, we can reasonably expect mainstreaming to work. If, however, the disability supports to minimise the impact of some of the impairments or limitations that come with disability are not in place in the first instance, mainstreaming will not work because people with disabilities come in at too different a point in their lives or too late to be able to expect the same benefits as somebody else going in.

Chairman

Mr. Murphy, there were points to which you wanted to respond.

Mr. Pat Murphy

I share all the views expressed. From the NDA's perspective, there is no doubt but that mainstreaming is driving the agenda. As Mr. Flanagan said, there are arguments for and against it. Sometimes things are lost in translation when everything is boxed off into individual departments, as are the cross-fertilisation and the information exchange between them. I understand the principle and why it goes that way, but it creates a lot of problems.

I will make a final point. Perhaps the committee could consider bringing in employers who have experience of the wage subsidy scheme and of employing people with disabilities to inform the committee's deliberations at some stage. I could suggest some people who might talk to the committee about that.

Chairman

We would appreciate that. I thank one and all for their detailed contributions this morning. Some of the evidence we have heard recently, particularly on employment, shows the fear among people who have a disability and who are on benefits of going into employment and losing those benefits. It was mentioned that the medical card is crucial and gold. We hear that week in, week out. We really need to zone in on it. We have looked at transport, but it is also a matter of navigating Government Departments and State agencies, getting the best possible outcomes, whether in Bantry, in the large urban centres or wherever else, and trying to knit it all together. It takes a huge amount of work to knit it together to provide the best service for people with disabilities. We thank the witnesses for the honesty of their evidence and the way they have answered Members this morning. If there are any issues they think we have not dealt with or about which they wish to make further points, they should feel free to send us further information on them. The difficulty we have is that when we address some issues, we put another layer of bureaucracy onto the system rather than seeing if it can be knitted into the existing system to make it less cumbersome and less difficult for people with disabilities and the organisations that support them to access funding. We will look at that and we will certainly take up Mr. Flanagan's point about employers because that is a perspective we need to get as well as we go forward. I thank one and all for being present this morning, including those who have us joined online, our members for their dedication week in, week out, the witnesses for their time and efforts on this and our team here, who keep us on the straight and narrow every week.

We have a private meeting at 3.15 p.m. on Monday afternoon to go through the work schedule and maybe some of the issues that have arisen recently.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.37 a.m. until 9.45 a.m. on Thursday, 26 May 2022.