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Joint Committee on Disability Matters díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 May 2022

Progressing Disability Services: Discussion

The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss the progressing disability services, PDS, model. On behalf of the committee, I extend a welcome to Ms Helen Holmes, vice chairperson of the Dublin 12 Campaign for Autism Inclusion, Ms Linda Whitmarsh, co-chair of the Cavan Monaghan Parents Committee, and Ms Nicola Hart, member support team leader with Down Syndrome Ireland.

I remind committee members that they are only allowed to participate in this meeting if they are physically present on the campus of Leinster House. I ask members who are joining remotely to confirm whether they are on the campus prior to making their contributions. For anyone watching us online, witnesses are accessing the meeting remotely due to unprecedented circumstances, and I ask people to bear with us if any technical issue arises.

Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise witnesses giving evidence from locations outside the parliamentary precincts that the constitutional protections afforded to witnesses attending and giving evidence before the committee may not extend to them. At this point, we do not have clear guidance on whether privilege extends to them. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence, they must respect that direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Without further ado, I ask Ms Holmes to make her opening remarks.

Ms Helen Holmes

I am joining this meeting via Microsoft Teams from home and am not on campus.

I thank the committee for inviting the Dublin 12 Campaign for Autism Inclusion to present to it. I am a parent of a child with additional needs and the vice chair of the campaign. I wish to acknowledge the input of our chairperson, Ms Margaret Jane Lowndes, who contributed to today's submission but is unable to attend. The Dublin 12 campaign was set up in 2018 due to the frustration of parents about the lack of school places and services in our area. We advocate for equal opportunities in education and services and for raising acceptance for children with additional needs.

According to the HSE, the PDS model for children and young people is a HSE programme that aims to achieve a single national approach to delivering disability services. It is a fairer way of providing services for children with disabilities and the pooling together of all resources. As a result of that, the children's disability network team, CDNT, is a family-centred model supported through an individual family service plan, IFSP, outlining what the goals of the child are and how best the teams can support the child and his or her family in achieving these goals.

While the above reads well on paper, the real experience of parents to date is different.

In Dublin 12, our Children's Disability Network Teams, CDNTs, are split into two locations, one in Dublin 8 and one in Dublin 12. Unfortunately our area was one of the last to be reconfigured and was also delayed further when the Covid-19 pandemic hit in 2020. The delay with the reconfiguration left families with nowhere to turn for support or help. The most vulnerable in our society were forgotten about leading to extra stress in an already worrying and unprecedented time.

Based on our own personal experiences and those of many of the families in Dublin 12, I will go into some key issues experienced as well as our collective recommendation on how the services could be improved for our vulnerable children suffering without services.

On some of the key issues, number one is communication. Initial communication between the HSE and families detailing the dates for the reconfiguration was infrequent and generic. No specific dates were provided. Families struggled with uncertainty. The communication was, and continues to be, extremely inconsistent. Some families received correspondence while others did not. Parents have also reported last-minute cancellations from CDNTs. To give a recent example, one family waited in a reception area to attend their appointment and were called by the same reception to say that their appointment was cancelled. We hope it does not come as a surprise to many that many of the children needing these services struggle with routine disruptions. An experience of this nature is very distressing for a child. The disregard for the impact on parents taking time off work to attend is also of note.

Family forums, as recommended by PDS, to be used to discuss issues within the CDNTs, are still not established and will take another few months to be set up. Parents need their voices to be heard now.

On inconsistencies, different approaches are used depending on the CDNTs that families attend. Some parents have been allocated key workers and have attended an initial meeting with them. Others are inexplicably without this service. Some were asked to bring their children to these initial meetings, others were advised to leave their children at home. Some of the CDNTs are offering play therapy and interventions for children and some are more focused on giving parent courses. One CDNTs has a messaging system in place for appointments and reminders and the other does not. A consistent approach, process and service is needed across the board.

On staff resources, all teams in the area are suffering from lack of staff and this has been communicated as an excuse for the delay and lack of services. Staff recruitment and high turnover is a major issue. There appears to be no coherent plan to improve this trend. There is also a worrying trend of newly recruited staff leaving very quickly. There are a number of vacancies across the two teams covering Dublin 12, including three psychologists, two physiotherapists, two speech and language therapists, one occupational therapist and one dietician.

High turnover is a huge concern as is lack of continuity in the process. Services have to start over to accommodate knowledge transfer to new hires. There is disruption to the relationship formed with children who thrive on familiarity and routine. Recruitment to the roles appears takes a long time. Staff illness and extended leave are not covered by anyone. Insufficient capacity is built into the teams to prevent the impact of staff absences.

On waiting lists, we surveyed 25 parents in April 2022. Of the 25, 20% have had an initial meeting with their key worker, 8% are attending a parent course, 16% attend a mix between play therapy and interventions, and 56% families are waiting without services. At present the waiting time for a "new" case to access the services is two and half years. There is no respite or home help available during these extremely difficult waiting periods. In our survey, we also asked parents if they had to privately bear the cost of therapies their child required. The average cost per household was €4,000 for a single child and over €9,000 for multiple children. As early intervention is so critically important, parents have had to struggle to find ways to fund these services privately. Private services have waiting lists and many are over-subscribed, so waiting lists are often closed to new clients. Given the rising cost of living and inflation, many of the private services have recently increased in cost. Families are struggling and having to make difficult priority decisions between mortgage, rent, household bills and their child's needs. It is a very hard place to be as a parent.

On recommendations, we recommend that a relief panel of therapists be put in place to cover illness and long term and extended leave. There should be automated text messaging for confirming, amending and cancelling appointments. Occupational therapists and speech and language assistants should be trained up and sent into the CDNTs to support therapists. We need to look beyond Ireland to recruit expert staff and provide appropriate incentives to attract the required talent. A system facilitating funded access to private services where public services cannot be provided within a reasonable timeframe should be implemented. This is not dissimilar to the concept of medical card access to a private GP but applied to the required disability services.

In summary, the roll out of the PDS appears positive and was welcomed as a new modernised disability service. However, for many families, it is a frustrating system to navigate. As the committee knows, the idea is to bring fairer access for each child and their family but the reality is there are no therapies for children and the emphasis is put back onto parents to be the therapists for their child. Parents are brought in for a meeting to set goals as part of the individual family service plan, IFSP, and must decide their child's top three issues. These form the foundation of the plan. Deciding as a parent is very difficult. You are left to appraise your own child. How can you choose when your child is complex and needs an array of help? Parents are steered away from requesting any direct intervention therapies for our children. As parents, we want to be empowered to support our children but we cannot do this alone. We need the expert therapists to do what they trained for and provide the services, frameworks and education necessary to families. Children are left to regress and families are left distressed. There is no one to step in to help and, as a parent, you feel deflated and that you have failed your child. Who supports parents' mental health as they continue to fight for what their children need?

Unless you live with a child with additional needs, you can never truly know the impact the absence of services have on the child and family. I ask the members today to consider if it was their child. What would they do while they challenge the system and watch their child regress? Would they be happy for their three-and-a-half-year-old nonspeaking child to wait until they are six years of age to be seen and supported? I thank members for their time and the opportunity to speak today.

Thank you very much, Ms Holmes, for your contribution. I call on Ms Whitmarsh to make her opening remarks.

Ms Linda Whitmarsh

Good morning. My husband and I are the co-chairpersons from the Cavan-Monaghan parents committee. We commenced our committee five weeks ago due to a level of frustration because we only had singular voice. We felt we needed to get the parents together and to have our voices heard all together, united. I am here today to highlight several issues we have with the disability services. Due to the continuing deterioration of services not only for our children but for all children of the State, we have reached out to some of the strongest and bravest members not only of our county, but of the entire country. We have all continued to fight for our children in silence until now. I am just an ordinary mother with extraordinary children, but I am tired. I feel alone and very scared for their future. My fear is not of their diagnosis but of the lack of support and services that our children are waiting so long for and truly deserve.

I am here as a mother of three boys, two of whom are awaiting services, and I am here on behalf of our committee. Our joint stories are one of heartache as our children grow in front of our eyes towards the possibility of residential care due to dismal staffing levels and poor oversight. Until the ratification of the UN’s optional protocol is achieved, the cry of our children will continue in silence. Our eight-year-old son has cystic fibrosis. He has received two hours of intervention in the last three years, with one hour of speech and language yesterday, just on the back of all this campaigning. He has had no public assessments and had a private assessment in which he was diagnosed with an intellectual disability. He is autistic and nonspeaking. As per my previous submission, he was refused early intervention six times. My son has no continuity of service with multiple therapists just on the phone and has received only two hours of intervention. His regression was unbelievable during the Covid-19 pandemic and we were never offered substantial support other than a phone call. It was extremely stressful on us all as a family. Our other boy is ten years old and he is waiting four years for an assessment for dyspraxia and just recently ASD.

The lack of staffing in the disability services in our area is causing considerable stress on our family and on our children, and they are suffering from this lack of continuity and services.

The stories of our committee carry the same message, with long waiting lists. A recent poll we did of our committee members involving 23 families showed that 18 had been waiting two years or more for services, four had been waiting just one to two years and one had been waiting a year. We have a child who has been waiting seven years for physiotherapy in primary care; a family who are waiting in limbo as their child's needs are deemed not complex enough for a CDNT but too complex for primary care; a five-year-old who has been on a waiting list for half his life, that is, two and a half years; non-speaking children who have been waiting over three years for speech and language therapies and assessments; and a boy with cerebral palsy, ASD and multiple other diagnoses, who has had six sessions split between occupational therapists, OTs, and physiotherapy, not one full individualised session since 2019 and no speech and language therapy.

A National Model of Care for Paediatric Healthcare Services in Ireland, which under chapter 9 shows a guide to workforce planning from 2014, includes progressive disability services. We have checked these figures and their veracity with the services and they agreed that they were correct. As per that document, there should be 37.5 therapists. The current staff in Cavan CDNT comprises 10.5 therapists, one OT, three speech and language therapists, two psychologists, 2.5 physios and two social workers for 630 children. There are 11.5 roles vacant, so the team should be fully manned at 22. As per the HSE policy, however, the number should be 37.5. That is still not sufficient for efficient intervention for a population of 76,092.

The population of our neighbouring county, Monaghan, which we also represent, is 61,386, according to the 2016 census. At present, the number of staff posts in Monaghan is 32 but the CDNT comprises 24 therapists, with eight vacancies. There is a big difference between the population and the staffing level.

One of the main issues our committee faces locally and nationwide is families being sent from their own counties to different counties due to land boundaries close by and to entirely different community hubs. That is an example of the postcode lottery.

As for recruitment, the pay differences and unequal contracts between section 38 and section 39 workers is a huge issue that needs to be addressed. There has been no international recruitment such as in nursing. No allocation allowances or specialist posts have ever been proposed to retain our staff and there have never been any grants or even final year pay for student therapists or an increase in the number of places in third level education for those therapists.

The National Treatment Purchase Fund is not being availed of due to an inability to verify the qualifications of private staff, yet our services use private therapists, even on weekends, when complaints reach boiling point. Our family has spent €15,000 in the past two and a half years on one child and we are not in a position now to do the same as his care needs are quite high, and with the two boys I have to take a step down from work. We just cannot afford the private therapy any more.

CDNTs are supposed to be for complex cases only, yet they have 20 children with non-complex needs there.

There is no local client or parental involvement such as family forums, completed service satisfaction surveys or audits to quantify stakeholder experiences so there are no ratings or patient or parent satisfaction reports. It seems that if we had parent satisfaction reports, they would not show great satisfaction. If it were like the HSE, we would be able to complain to the service and we would be inundated with complaints. Perhaps something would happen then.

There is no recognition of a drop-down qualification such as that of a therapist assistant who could work under the direction of the therapist to bridge the gap for these children who have been waiting so long and to take pressure off the therapists.

We have fought to keep our eight-year-old with cystic fibrosis alive and now we fight to gain independence for him and a good quality of life without us and to promote the speech of a voiceless, precious child. Only now, having fought so hard, is he beginning to get appointments he needed three or four years ago. The passage of time haunts me as we cannot get his lost time back. The only thing necessary for the triumph of complacency is for good people to do nothing. I plead with the committee not to allow this complacency to leave a stain on our children.

Thank you, Ms Whitmarsh, for that powerful testimony.

Ms Nicola Hart

I am from Down Syndrome Ireland. I thank the Chairperson and the committee for inviting me here to speak.

Every year around 150 babies join the population of people with Down's syndrome living in Ireland. Babies and children with Down's syndrome need therapies to help them reach their potential. According to our recent research, almost half of all children with Down's syndrome had no therapy at all last year. Even when they do get therapy, it is not at the intensity and dosage they need. Down's syndrome is diagnosed before or immediately after birth. Early diagnosis means there is no need to wait for babies to start showing developmental delays and there is the opportunity to provide targeted therapy from birth, with potentially life-changing results. Why is there no plan for that? Before the pandemic, in 2019, the average number of speech and language therapy sessions for a child with Down's syndrome was five - not five a week or five a month but five in a whole year. That is well below the dosage required, according to research, and it has only got worse. Two thirds of children with Down's syndrome received no speech and language therapy at all last year, according to our research, and in some community healthcare organisations, CHOs, the proportion was more than 80%.

We have been told that money is not the issue, so somebody needs to figure out what the issue is. Why are we spending money on services that are failing to meet the needs of our children? As recently as the 1980s, the average life expectancy for somebody with Down's syndrome was 25 years; it is now about 60. The HSE, by failing to provide therapy in childhood, is kicking the can down the road. That is not just impacting the lives of children with Down's syndrome right now; it is storing up social and economic costs for the future. People with Down's syndrome are often underestimated because of their communication difficulties. Without effective, individualised therapy, they can become increasingly frustrated and isolated. Failure to provide therapy has huge impacts on access to education, on social inclusion and on quality of life, and those in turn impact physical and mental health.

Therapy is not happening because the system is simply not working. Resources are spread so thinly that they are far below the level needed to be effective. Statutory assessments are being resourced from the same pot as therapy. When one has to be provided and it is considered that the other would be nice to provide, it is very easy to see what will happen. Parents get phone calls from therapists asking them to describe their children's progress in order that unmanageable waiting lists can be triaged. Most families are offered indirect therapy, such as parent training, despite there being no evidence that this effects change on speech and language skills for children with Down's syndrome. Therapists are leaving, some because the service they are asked to provide does not line up with professional ethics. We saw what happened when the HSE ignored the ethical concerns of therapists about the revised assessment of need. The State has a responsibility to provide effective therapy to support development and to prevent further disabilities under Article 25(b) of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, CRPD. That is not happening.

Focusing on speech and language therapy, we also need to consider the discriminatory nature of the system. Children with developmental speech and language disorders who do not have intellectual disabilities are offered direct therapy. There is no suggestion of moving to a less direct model for those children. However, children with a speech and language disorder associated with Down's syndrome face much longer waiting lists, which may be triaged based on a phone call. They are extremely unlikely to be offered therapy. That is State-designed discrimination. Children with Down's syndrome have the right to receive the same range, quality and standard of healthcare and programmes as provided to other people.

This is a breach of Article 25(a) of the UNCRPD.

The HSE has said that one of the issues is that there are not enough therapists to fill posts. However, most teams are not openly recruiting. The allied healthcare section on the HSE jobs website recently had only two areas recruiting senior speech and language therapists to work on disability teams. It is disingenuous to say there are no therapists out there if one is not actively looking for therapists or incentivising them to return to the workforce.

We have been told that the issues we are raising are temporary while the HSE makes the system better for everybody and that we somehow fail to understand that. We understand that our children are not getting the therapy that they need. The HSE has failed to take into account both the needs of children and families and the research evidence. As a consequence, the State has failed to meet its obligations under Article 25 of the UNCRPD. We need to stop putting the lives and futures of hundreds of children at a disadvantage by failing to provide therapy or providing advisory services that are not based on best evidence and have little or no chance of changing outcomes.

Last year was the 50th anniversary of the founding of Down Syndrome Ireland. We found some archived magazines from the early 1970s and the biggest issue then was lack of therapy. We failed children 51 years ago and we are still failing them now.

I will leave the members with a couple of quotes from parents of children with Down's syndrome. One parent of a preschool child said: "I firmly believe not one therapist could pick my son out of a line-up and even if they could they'd struggle to tell me anything about his strengths, interests and challenges”. A parent of a young teenager said:

We have and are receiving no service, and I do not expect this to change. They are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic again. Nothing ever improves.

To summarise, we need the following: a real commitment to meeting the State's obligations under Article 25; a complete overhaul of the recruitment and retention processes, which are not fit for purpose; an increase in staffing to the levels recommended by professional bodies; the provision of separate, additional and ring-fenced resources for assessments of need, and a change in the law to make provision of services a statutory requirement; individualised therapy provision at dosages high enough to make an impact rather than just parent training or short blocks of therapy with long breaks in between, neither of which have been shown to be effective; therapists routinely employed in education to work as part of the school team to facilitate access to education; and an end to discrimination by increasing therapy for children with disabilities not by reducing therapy for others.

I thank Ms Hart for her contribution. Members will now ask questions and comment on issues. First to speak is the Vice Chairman, Deputy Pauline Tully.

I thank the witnesses for their extremely powerful presentations as they represent their own children and other children with additional needs who need services now. I have so many questions that they would take up the entire meeting. First, I shall ask about regression during Covid. Ms Whitmarsh mentioned that there was an unbelievable amount of regression and I wonder would she be comfortable elaborating on the matter. We have heard so much about the impact that Covid has had on children with additional needs and the accompanying mental health issues. What would have made a difference during that time when we were told that the schools had to close? What can be done now? Is there anything that can be done to address any regression?

Next I want to discuss the two options for children, which are primary care and the children's disability network teams. I have been told that the less complex cases are supposed to go to primary care and the more complex cases go to the teams. Ms Whitmarsh has said that some cases have fallen between both of them, which is a concerning situation. How many cases has this happened to? If a child is on a list then there is some hope that he or she will receive some sort of therapy and interventions sometime, and sooner rather than later. However, if a child is not on any list because his or her case falls between the two options and people cannot decide which option is most appropriate then such a situation is really concerning. Those are my initial queries and if time allows I will mention a few more issues.

Ms Linda Whitmarsh

In terms of regression during Covid, one of my boys is Finn and he has always had a lot of complex care needs. He needed his therapy and intervention years ago. During Covid, as the schools were closed, he completely got out of his routine. Everything was topsy-turvy and it was so hard to keep him regulated and focused. As a family, we took him for walks and did everything that he enjoyed. One hears stories about how bad the HSE is and how services are so awful yet if one had come to live with us during the time of Covid one would have discovered that it was an absolutely horrific time. It was the worst time that we have ever experienced, and worse than all of his hospital admissions due to cystic fibrosis, because Finn got into a routine of having faecal smearing episodes. At night time we would have settled him in bed but later when we went into his room to check on him we would discover that the walls, floor and the child were covered in faeces. These episodes lasted for three months. My husband and I are strong together but seeing our child standing in his room and covered in his own faeces took its toll. I resorted to ringing occupational therapists and begged them for assessments or an appointment for Finn but we just got a phone call from someone who outlined strategies but we had already done all that. Had Finn intervention beforehand then maybe these episodes would never have happened because he would have been able to regulate himself and we would be able to deal with that.

We found it hard to deal with these episodes for three months whereby we had to clean his bedroom every night and sometimes two and three times a night. It was only later that we figured out what was going on. I mean that these episodes happened because his oldest brother went to bed a little bit later and as a result Finn wanted to act out. However, as Finn is non-verbal he could not tell us that. Had he got an intervention, and speech and language therapy, when he needed it, when he was four or five years old, then we would not have found ourselves in such a position and where we are today.

Early intervention is so vital and is part of Article 25(b) in the UNCRPD but that has not happened. I will always regret that Finn did not get early intervention. That regret keeps me up at night along with worrying about what will happen to him when I die or when my husband and I are no longer around. We also regret that so much time has elapsed without interventions because Finn only said the word "dad" last week. We wonder if Finn had gotten an early intervention would he have said the word "dad" four years ago.

What can be done now? Finn came out of the period of Covid and that took a lot of work. We wonder how much better he would be had he received services in time. In fact, the services were too late to benefit him. We, as a family, went through an awful, hard three months and even his brothers saw that. It is hard for a whole family to experience that and explain it to our other children.

One of my children is waiting four years for primary care and another boy has waited a long time for assistance from the children's disability network team, CDNT but recently got services. One of our committee members has a child who has been recently diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder, ASD. The child's name was put on both the primary care list and the CDNT list in the hope of getting services quicker because the availability of services is so bad. Being placed on both lists should not happen. I mean if one needs one service then one will be placed on the primary care list and if one needs multiple services then one is placed on the CDNT list. That member of our committee was told that if she needs to get a private assessment then to do so but ring the HSE back so they can take the child's name off the lists. So that is what is happening in my county at the moment.

Ms Nicola Hart

Ms Whitmarsh has given us a good yet extreme example of what happens if a child is unable to communicate. We are not providing early intervention speech and language therapy. We know from research that even delaying therapy for three months has a negative impact on outcomes yet we have children on waiting lists for two and three years. We have children who were born during Covid who did not get the benefit of mother and toddler groups so missed early interaction. Now, as we emerge from Covid, there is no therapy in sight and these children are already at a disadvantage. Such situations simply store up problems for the future. If one has a child who cannot communicate in any other way than through behaviour then that is going to cause problems in education, social integration etc. Not providing early services when needed will result in problems being stored up and they will be more costly to solve in the long-term.

Ms Helen Holmes

Our area was not reconfigured during that time so it was even more of a stressful position. Previously, we would ring and we would be told what was happening or coming down the line. A worrying trend I was told about in regard to my son, in particular, is that there were no therapists because they had been seconded to testing centres and help in response to the pandemic.

I understand that was an unprecedented event. Similar to what Ms Whitmarsh describes, we got a phone call to check how we were getting on and saying a social story could be posted out. It was not helpful at the time. As well as trying to be a child's teacher and doing homework with the child, we were expected to do occupational therapy, speech and language therapy and all of that. There was no end in sight, as members know, and we did not know how long the first lockdown would be. As the ladies mentioned, there does not seem to have been any forward thinking about what would happen when we were back up and running and where the capacity would be to support these children, who already have significant delays and have been regressing further socially, academically and in many other ways. There was no forward planning and we continued with the existing model, which did not take into account what would happen in a pandemic and its consequences.

It is a question of what we can do and there does not always appear to be forward thinking. That is where we are let down and we seem to go around in circles, putting out small fires all the time.

I thank all the witnesses. I am utterly depressed, although I do not why I am more than normal, after listening to these testaments. The story that has been painted is just so utterly bleak. In whatever way we can, we must try to give hope as well as support to families in this position. I thank the witnesses for their honesty and courage in coming to tell us their stories.

I have a few comments and questions. I have heard about Ms Holmes several times from my colleague, Senator Ardagh, and she speaks very highly of her and MJ and the work they do. I live in Kildare, which is part of community healthcare organisation, CHO, 7 as well, and I am only too well aware of the issue from the families I work and deal with in Kildare. I know exactly what they are facing.

Families are waiting two and a half years and the witnesses have all noted the importance of early intervention, and that is shocking. There is no mention of respite or home care. I noted in particular that families are steered away from requesting any direct intervention therapies. Will the witnesses expand on that a little?

I will put my questions together. The survey mentioned by witnesses indicates 56% of families are waiting without services, and there is absolutely no way anybody could ever stand over anything like that. Will the witnesses comment on July provision? I certainly know that in my area it is very difficult to get schools and special needs assistants to deliver it.

I know Ms Whitmarsh met the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, last week. Fair play to her and her husband for setting up this group because it is very important that families are able to talk to one another, share and advocate. She mentioned the need for such a process and the lack of those types of family forums. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is going to all the areas and listening to families, which is very important. She has not come to my area yet but I believe what she heard is grim. Nevertheless, these views must be heard by everybody, including the HSE. I know the HSE did not even send representatives to one of those meetings, which I believe was in Cork. That is appalling. We must absolutely call the HSE out on that.

I have listened to what the witnesses described as happening to them during the Covid-19 pandemic. They had to give up jobs and do not now have money for private treatment, which is beyond belief. One of the children has only received one hour of intervention in the past three years, which is appalling. He is non-verbal and is not getting those supports. What would be the best practice schedule for intervention in that case? There was mention of people going to counties but how does that work with respect to transport and costs?

I thank Ms Hart for her contribution. My brother, who has Down's syndrome, is 47. When he was born, he was the ninth child in the family and there were two more after him. My mother brought him to private speech therapy twice a week. It was a considerable distance from our home. As children, we were all encouraged to help and be part of that therapy. He is an absolutely amazing man now and the heartbeat of our home.

It seems that 47 years later, things are basically exactly the same. Cathal was born just four years after the Down's syndrome association started to fight for these people. It shocks me that things are still so bad but it is so hard to get change. With an early diagnosis, there is no reason plans cannot be put in place in terms of an intellectual disability database etc. That is unforgivable. We know the excellent work carried by the Down's syndrome organisation in Kildare, with literacy programmes and a horticultural programme. They are going through every single imaginable hoop in trying to keep those services open for young adults. It is a volunteer group.

We need to sit and listen but we must also bring recommendations. I thank the witnesses for the recommendations they have made. As I have said, I am just beyond despair but perhaps the witnesses will comment on what I have said.

Ms Helen Holmes

I thank the Senator for her questions. She asked about us being steered away from direct therapies but I can just speak from my experience. The progressing disability services model is family centred and it is about empowering parents. It is a needs-based process and a parent attends to discuss different issues a child is having. We are absolutely steered away from requesting any occupational therapy or speech and language intervention directly. I know this because I made a request and was told direct therapies and intervention will only be given if they are part of the family service plan. To have it in the plan, there must be agreement with a key worker, which in my case is a senior psychologist. We have to try to fight our case to get any kind of therapies. We and other parents in the area have not been able to get those therapies yet.

My son is autistic with pathological demand avoidance. He is now seven and half years old and was diagnosed at two and a half years. In five years, we got one block of floor time.

That includes a speech and language therapist and occupational therapist who got work just before the Covid pandemic. I could see a significant difference in him following those therapies. There was a difference for us because I could come back from those sessions knowing what the therapists had demonstrated would work in different scenarios. I could bring that back into the home and work with it. The other witnesses have gone through the data.

It would be nearly impossible for the current staff to see every child that needs to be seen. The issue is not having parents sitting there and perhaps going on parent courses. Each child is different and unique. We are fighting for the therapist to show us what to do and to empower us. There is no problem with bringing that into the home or the school. We need the experts who went to college for four years or more to help us as parents and to enable us to help our own children.

We did a survey of 25 families in the area. A family member sent us a letter the family received from the children's disability network team this week in respect of the little boy I spoke about earlier. He is three and a half years old and is non-speaking. The team will see him when he is six. That is open-ended. It is a generic approach we are used to. We are given periods of years and told teams will see children in 2024 or 2025, but there are never specific dates. As parents, we know that date will go further back. It goes back to asking what parents can do to help their children. Private therapy is so expensive as it is, but it is an absolute luxury to be able to get onto a waiting list. People on the list are afraid to give up their place. Parents say they are doing a block, that it is costing a certain amount and that they are terrified to lose the spot, because then they will have absolutely nothing. There is a significant impact on people waiting for services.

Dublin 12 is split into two areas. One person who contacted me did not know which children's disability network team area she would be in. I got her the two numbers and said she would have to call them, since it is based on the area she lived in. As a result, things moved a little quicker for her because there was shock about a child having slipped through the cracks.

A survey was recently published about special schools and July provision. There are 126 special schools in Ireland. Only 26 provide July provision. My son, Adam, attends a mainstream school with support from special needs assistants. I am told the teachers and special needs assistants, SNAs, have their own families and they do not want or need to do this July provision. The main issues are that there are no incentives for staff and that teachers and SNAs received payments late in the past. They had to go through hoops, submitting all the forms to get their money. There is not enough incentive for them to do it. People are left to find their own tutors. Everything we speak about with regard to therapies and tutors falls back onto families, who have to deal with a lot of stress and pressure as it is, but they want to see their children succeed, so they do what they have to.

Ms Linda Whitmarsh

I thank Senator O'Loughlin for her question and empathy. When you have a child with additional needs, all you have is hope there will be improvement and that services will get better. Every parent in the country is in despair about the way progressing disability services, PDS, is at present, because it is not getting any better. We hear the forgotten voices of children. No one seems to be getting the required and deserved services. We had a meeting with two Ministers during the week. There is still much to be done. Much good work has started and will continue. Staffing and recruitment are the main issues we need to address. There were 10,000 preliminary team assessment, PTA, assessments of needs. This information was given to us by a Minister. Only 54% of these people are receiving intervention, which comes to 5,400. That seems great, but 4,600 are not receiving intervention. There will be further issues with the illegal assessments of needs.

Following our meeting, a key issue seems to be that there is a lot of shock among the Ministers and everyone else. The stories being told are not what it is actually going on in reality. There is a bit of a blame game between the HSE and Government, saying it is not in their area. These children are not just figures. We should not just say we will see what happens and that we will wait to see how it goes. They need therapy and intervention now. My child should have got his intervention when he was three. He was refused early intervention six or seven times even though people say early intervention is key. There is no early intervention in our area.

Article 25(c) of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities states there is an onus to "Provide these health services as close as possible to people’s own communities, including in rural areas". You cannot get any more rural than where we are. Families in an area close to us have to drive 40 or 50 minutes to another area. Some might not have cars and they have to go to a different county. There is no support or community hubs for them, which is against the protocol. It is so unfair that these parents have to go out. They do not meet people. The children's disability network teams in any area we have been in are empty. There are no children there. We were there for a session yesterday and our child was the only child in the building. The sessions are fantastic. Yesterday was my second session. I learned a lot in the session, including where to go. When a child is non-speaking, you have to research everything. There is the stress of wondering whether I am doing the right thing for him. Only getting intervention after screaming and shouting is not sufficient. We should not have to go public with our stories. This should just be an entitlement for these voiceless, forgotten children of our country who need it.

Ms Nicola Hart

Progressing disability services seems to have been set up with a consultative, advisory style, not for the kind of consistent, ongoing therapy Senator O'Loughlin described having to get privately all those years ago. That is what is needed. My background is in speech and language therapy. We know working with parents works if you are seeing them regularly, so you know the family and the child and is able to coach continually. Coaching parents to help their child is not a once-off event. You needs to reach the family at least weekly to support them properly.

I would like to pick up on Senator O'Loughlin's comments about adult services in Kildare. People with Down's syndrome are the group with the highest identified incidence of early onset dementia. It arrives 20 to 25 years earlier than in the general population. Things that prevent dementia in typical people are ongoing, continuous education, social interaction and physical exercise. We are not giving people the kind of start in life to develop communication which promotes that kind of social interaction and pushes them towards a path of independence rather than a path of dependence. When we are setting up charities, such as the horticulture and literacy maintenance programmes in Kildare, we face barriers at all sides when trying to get funding to continue. That is not for young adults or school leavers. Some of them are now in their late 20s or 30s. That is the next issue coming down the road for parents. We are not just failing people at early stages, we are setting them on a different pathway. When we try to do something about that for those young adults, who are hitting middle age now, that is pulled away too.

I thank the witnesses. They have given us an insight into how they are living through this process and the issues arising, which are horrible. This committee has had many meetings and is determining the best way to progress disability services. Having listened this morning, I believe the frustration of parents of children with Down’s syndrome relates to the fact that everything is being talked about although things are not happening on the ground. The children’s disability network teams were set up. Will the witnesses give me an idea as to whether the deckchairs have just been changed on the Titanic or whether services have been improved as a result of the reconfiguration?

The other issue I have relates to the statement of one of the witnesses that she was in the waiting room when she received a telephone call stating her appointment was cancelled. If a person has a caseworker, how in the name of God is that caseworker not communicating on a basis that really and truly means the person knows what is going on, rather than finding out in a waiting room?

My third question relates to intervention services. I see that only one hour of intervention was given to a certain child over the past three years, with no assessment. This type of thing is happening. These failures within the State manifest themselves in homes throughout the country. Could I have the delegates' views on that?

Why, in the opinion of the delegates, are therapists so hard to get? When we do get them, why do they not stay in the system? Is it that the system is broken? Do therapists lose hope when in the system because they believe they cannot do anything with it? We are being told at Government level that it is not a question of money and at HSE level that it is a question of the recruitment process, but surely we need to ensure we have the professionals in place to carry out the early interventions and do all that needs to be done to ensure the children get the services to which they are legally entitled, not just the services they deserve? Could I hear the delegates’ comments on that?

Ms Linda Whitmarsh

I thank the Deputy for his questions. I feel the services are worsening. There is no communication at all with the team. You have to ring constantly to ask where your child is on the waiting list. For three or four years, the answer is that your child is a priority. My child was a P1, or priority No. 1. He was a P1 because he had been on the waiting list for more than a year and because we had seven consultant letters sent to the CDNT on our behalf. If one consultant letter is sent, your child should be P1. My child was a P1 six or seven times because all his cystic fibrosis consultants and consultants in paediatrics, autism and intellectual disability referred him for interventions. I do not know how it can be said a child is a P1 seven times if he or she still has to wait three to four years. It is absolutely ridiculous. The system is completely failing the children of this State.

With regard to recruitment and therapists, there is no international recruitment. We have been asking about this and it has been brought up in the Seanad. The WHO’s Global Code of Practice on the International Recruitment of Health Personnel keeps getting mentioned but that is non-binding. Trade missions have been carried out before. LinkedIn seems to be relied on heavily when recruiting staff, whereas going to another country to recruit should be considered. In the past, we brought in a large number of nurses from the Philippines and India. Trade missions work but they are just not happening.

When the Government was asked about this, one of its answers was that the Magee campus of Ulster University produces speech and language therapists. However, they cannot come from the North to the South because they have not done a dysphasia course. Furthermore, the Government’s answer is not an answer because only 23 speech and language therapists come from Magee campus per year. There are 580-plus vacancies in the 91 CDNT teams. Twenty-three speech and language staff will just not be sufficient.

The pay gap between section 38 workers and section 39 workers is also a huge issue. There was pay restoration in 2019 and 2020, with €7.7 million spent in 2019. If speech and language therapists are given a choice to work with children in whom an immediate improvement will not be seen and are to be paid €4,000 to €5,000 less than others, will they opt for that job? I refer to the main reason for the inability to retain section 39 staff. In Cavan, it is a big issue because we have only 10.5 of those workers. There has been no drive for an allowance for complex needs workers. The budgets are in place. There are budgets for staff but staff are not being got. Why, therefore, do we not keep the staff we have and introduce an allowance for complex cases and give job guarantees? Newly qualified staff cannot work for CDNTs if they have not got paediatric training. Why do we not have a bit of foresight and provide this in college? Students could do some of their thousand placement hours in paediatrics so they could work for CDNTs when they graduate.

There are many other issues I could get into but I will let everybody else give their answers now.

Ms Nicola Hart

I do not understand how the HSE can say it is trying to recruit therapists. The HSE jobs website indicates very few areas are looking for therapists for network disability teams.

I live in Wexford. There is a very limited service in Wexford for parents with children with Down’s syndrome. I do not believe a single job has come up that I could have applied for. I am a CORU-registered speech and language therapist with 30 years’ experience of working with people with disabilities. I do not believe there has been a single job. Where is the HSE recruiting? If it is not recruiting internationally or nationally, how can it say there are no therapists? Unless something dramatic happens, it will be very difficult to retain therapists. A team of ten that should be a team of nearly 40 has a caseload four times greater than it should be. That is depressing. Every parent who comes in through the door is going to be angry. There are so many other jobs available to therapists. They could go into the private sector or community care, where there is not the level of despair that there is in disability services.

I agree with Ms Whitmarsh in that our feedback from families is that the transition to progressing disability services for children and young people has disimproved services. The service has opted much more for the consultancy and parent-training model, which has no evidence to back it up. Is it at such a low level that we are almost wasting money. Money is being spent on therapists who have so little time. There are good therapists. This is a systemic problem, not a therapist problem. Money is being spent on people who are able to have so little contact with families that you almost question whether it is worth it.

I have been talking about senior therapist recruitment.

As for basic grade recruitment of therapists coming out of universities, a basic grade panel is opening now but therapists are graduating at this stage. I know from a colleague in a university that all the final-year graduates there already have jobs and the panel has not even opened yet. That is an entire graduating class that will, potentially, be lost to the Irish system.

Ms Helen Holmes

In respect of the reconfiguration, it feels like the goalposts are being moved for parents. The system was one way and we were promised all the shiny new things that would come along with the new progressing disability services, PDS, programme and the children’s disability network teams, CDNTs, but they have not transpired. It is now a more challenging system to navigate. It seems to focus on a family-centred model, which is really good, but there is no therapist to back up or support parents to run that. We are kind of left in limbo. The issue arises where children are put on a list on the basis of priority. Who wants to hear whether their child is priority number one or number four? That just angers parents further. A parent's child is his or her child and that child is entitled to services but, as we know, the lists are not moving in the proper order.

There have been issues even with parents whose children were at the top of the priority list. One parent who attended an intervention recently with therapists on Armagh Road was asked to bring home the child because the child had behavioural issues. If a psychologist, an occupational therapist, OT, a speech and language therapist, SLT, and a disability manager are telling a parent that he or she will have to come back without the child, what kind of hope does that leave the parent regarding what kind of services are going to come? That parent is undergoing a block of parental courses every week. She is going through it and trying to get some strategies to help her son, but her son is in desperate need of intervention and respite, as are the wider family, yet they are being turned away. There is nobody there to help them, and that is the last thing we want to hear as parents.

From the campaign’s perspective, we met the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, in February. She assured us money was not an issue in respect of therapists and that there was plenty of money in the pot, with the same old story about recruitment. I do not know where the recruits are being placed because we are not seeing things happening as quickly as we would like them to. The recommendation referred, in particular, to OT and speech and language assistants coming in and supporting the therapists, which would take a little pressure off. The parental course I am attending is, like many of them, hosted by two senior psychologists. I cannot help but wonder every week how many children these people could be helping while we are attending the course. As other guests said earlier, there are some fantastic therapists out there and this is not meant to bash them. There are some very understanding therapists once you get into the system, but it is about getting in to see them and getting the support. There is sometimes an undertone that suggests the disability manager has been told to run cases in a certain way.

As well as meeting the Minister of State, we suggested there should be more administrative assistance in the CDNTs. In some cases when family plans are being drawn up, the senior therapist has to type up notes, which leads to a further delay in the process. That has since been improved and the feedback taken on board, particularly in my CDNT in Cork Street, where an administrative worker now looks after much of the stuff, which is fantastic.

We were able to contact a therapist who had recently left the HSE. That person had not been there for long but paperwork was a big issue. The therapist had been spending their time drowning under the paperwork, rather than being out there helping the children. That issue is systemic and needs to be addressed.

To return to the case of the child whose appointment was cancelled, what fuelled the matter was that, unfortunately, the disability manager was unaware of where the staff were. Somebody had called in sick, which happens and is understandable but I do not think somebody would call in sick ten minutes before they are due to start their working day. There is usually a bit of notice. In that example, when it was suggested another OT could take over, the receptionist had to inform the disability manager that this person was also out sick. A disability manager should know where his or her people are on any given day and be able to make amendments through a messaging system, which should be in place. There are messaging systems everywhere and it is not complex software to install. Such a system would be valuable in that it would avoid upsetting children who might not want to be there and wasting people's time. The appointment might involve a big change for the child and the parent might have prepared him or her for it with social stories or visual aids. If the plan is then changed, that can have a significant knock-on effect for parents that will be felt beyond that day. The child could have a meltdown that will last for up to two days because of that change.

I thank our three guests for their forthright answers, not least in regard to recruitment. I was very interested when Ms Holmes stated that more administrative staff are needed to support therapists and to let therapists focus on their expertise. That is something we should take up given that if a therapist is involved in administrative work, that is a waste of a valuable and scarce resource. Moreover, we should take up with the Department, the HSE and the Minister the issue of international recruitment, which can and should be done. We should not try to put barriers in the way but rather should have a can-do approach.

I thank our three guests. It has been very enlightening to hear on-the-ground experiences regarding the lack of supports and services. We have an awfully long way to go as a country to get a level of service that is in any way acceptable. I am substituting for Senator Seery Kearney during this meeting, who has spoken at length about the advocacy work that Ms Holmes’s organisation does in Dublin 12. Senator Seery Kearney wanted me to put on record that community's thanks for the work the organisation does, because it is extremely valuable.

That leads me on to some questions for Ms Holmes and Ms Whitmarsh relating to funding. How are they managing the funding of their organisations? Clearly, it is challenging and the advocacy work they do is critical. Are they accessing HSE funding or are there other supports for their organisations? I acknowledge Ms Whitmarsh's organisation has not been up and running for long.

Ms Helen Holmes

In respect of funding, as Senator Seery Kearney will be well aware, we run two groups, namely, a campaign group and a support group for parents, and funding tends to be on the latter side. We try to source experts such as OTs, SLTs and psychologists ourselves, negotiate a fee with them and bring them in to talk to parents to help them fill that gap. Parents are very frustrated waiting around, so we try to help out as much as we can. Next month, a speech and language therapist will come on board to run a couple of workshops with the parents, which will be brilliant.

There is a cost to that. Families are going through difficult times, like every family in the country at the moment with the rising costs of everything, and we try to keep the costs as low as possible. We do not receive any HSE funding, so we approach local agencies such as Dublin City Council or Dublin South City Partnership to see if they can support us with anything like that relating to education and empowering parents. Otherwise, if the cost is too high, it means the parents bear the costs and they are not always able to do that.

Ms Linda Whitmarsh

I am not sure how to answer that question. I will try my best.

I am not a campaigner; I am just a mum. We started our campaign five weeks ago. It started as a Facebook page for support that we were putting resources up for speech and language therapy and OT. My frustration and hearing everyone's story started this campaign five weeks ago. We had a local meeting and got parents to attend via social media and everything like that. We are campaigning to try to get awareness in services.

We do not get any funds or support from anyone. We are not providing a service for people apart from support and advocacy, and listening to them, which is important. In terms of funding, it would be nothing even though last week was a hectic week in preparation for this week and we have a presentation in the audiovisual room next week. From a working point of view, last week I put in at least 40 hours in campaigning and sending emails.

The HSE is actually referring people to our committee. This goes to show how the progressing disability services, PDS, system is. I know it is funny but it is not funny.

Sorry, we are not laughing.

Ms Linda Whitmarsh

It is funny.

Ms Linda Whitmarsh

You can laugh at it but it is not funny.

It shows the state of things.

Ms Linda Whitmarsh

We have started an email campaign. My husband and I campaigned previously for the cystic fibrosis drug Orkambi and along with other campaigners, we got it for our child. It is not that we want to campaign but I have to do it. I cannot sit back and do nothing. It is failing all our children. I can see the failure in my child. I only want to help people.

As I said, we started the email campaign. I am sorry if I am repeating myself. I thought it imperative to tell parents about the assessment of need route, that if one goes privately, as we did, one does not get a service statement. One of my main issues was to tell people that.

Then we started a your-service-your-say campaign for everyone on our committee and social media to put in his or her complaint. Via that, we have received three or four referrals from the HSE. As regards support, it is just something where we are supporting one another.

Maybe down the line, we will have little coffee mornings and have inclusion mornings for the children but we will never be a charity or a committee. I am only doing this because I do not want other people to have an eight-year-old who has only received one hour of services in March and one yesterday because I am pushing. I do not want that to happen. This is what we need to stop happening. Get the children who are three years of age and four years of age their services now. For example, we have a five-year-old on our committee and he has been waiting two and a half years. That is half his life. That is not good enough.

It is parents, such as me and my husband, who are put in these situations with children with additional needs. It is fight or flight. Parents are exhausted physically, mentally, emotionally and financially, but we are the type who, if we want to help people, will. We are only coming together and creating a little community and inclusion and somewhere where people can talk and guide their frustrations. We are campaigning on their behalf, not only for our child but for everyone, locally and nationally, and raising these issues because they are so important.

We will never be a charity. The HSE may refer more people to us but we will accept them because we only want to help people.

I thank the Chairman.

I thank Ms Whitmarsh. I call Deputy Shortall, who is substituting for Deputy Cairns.

Deputy Cairns sends her apologies. She regrets that she is not in a position to attend today. That is why I am substituting for her.

I thank our guests for their presentations and for their attendance here today. It is hard for me, like others, to listen to the first-hand testimonies they are providing. It is so much harder for them, looking after their children and providing support and advocacy for other parents in a similar situation.

Their insights are incredibly valuable because they are based on first-hand experience. Their analysis in terms of what needs to happen is important. The Government and the HSE need to hear that. Many of their proposals absolutely make sense.

It is regrettable that many of their proposals could be applied to staff right across the HSE. There are major problems with recruitment and retention right across the board. That is most sharply felt in relation to disability services. Actions must be taken in that regard. There needs to be, first of all, an assessment of the requirement right across the board with all therapists. There needs to be proper workforce planning. Staff need to be treated with respect. There are pay issues, undoubtedly, in relation to the section 39 organisations. They have been talked about for years. It is about time that the political system responded adequately to this. It probably represents one of the biggest failings at political level in relation to how services are run in this country. Of course, not only is it a breach of children's rights, it also holds back their development. As our guests well know, years lost in childhood can never be regained. As I say, it represents the worst State failure over recent years.

I thank them for all the work that they do. I have to say I am in awe of their energy, persistence and resilience in all of this. As parents of children with special needs, they should not have to do this. They should not have to go public on their own personal stories and they should not have to be forced into a situation where they must go private to access basic essential services. It is a measure of how wholly inadequate those services are.

Recruitment and retention are key issues in all of this. I was struck by something Ms Hart said about therapists leaving the service because what they are expected to do in providing the service does not line up with their professional ethics. Would Ms Hart talk to us a little more about that, please?

Ms Nicola Hart

When the HSE diluted the assessment of needs, we heard a huge outcry from professional bodies saying that this is meant to be a multidisciplinary team assessment. One cannot shorten this to the point where it is one or two professionals in a very short space of time having to make a judgment that will have a huge impact on the ongoing services for that child.

I would not work in a system that expected me to phone parents, ask them to describe how their child is doing over the phone and try to decide a priority list to bring into the clinic on that basis. I would not work for a system that expected me to only deliver indirect therapy when I know that there is no research evidence to back that up. That is unethical.

Ethically, they are failing their patients. Presumably, that creates major ethical issues for the individual therapists. It is one of the main drivers then, if therapists or anybody working in the health service feels that they are failing their clients or patients.

Ms Nicola Hart

The HSE is the biggest employer of therapists. In an environment where bills are going up and where there are all of the other pressures on staff and their families, it is difficult to say to the system that is employing them that this is not ethical but I do not believe that the services, as they are being delivered at present, are being delivered in an ethical way.

I thank Ms Hart. That is a damning statement for somebody with Ms Hart's level of experience to say. There are many statements that have been made here today that should be stopping senior politicians in their tracks in terms of the kind of priorities that they afford to different areas that need political attention as well as funding. There are funding issues there as well. It is not enough to say that money is not the problem. There are funding issues but there are also serious management issues involved and a question of people at a senior level taking responsibility.

Ms Nicola Hart

I would like to make it clear again that I am not blaming individual therapists here.

Ms Nicola Hart

We all have to make a decision on how to survive day to day but I think that the system is unethical.

It is so damning that the system is forcing out people who want to work in this area and who have trained hard.

Ms Whitmarsh talked about the fact that in her area, 18 of 23 young people have been waiting for two years or more. She commented that the passage of time haunts her. It is a shocking that she has been brought to a point where she says she is haunted by that with respect to her own children and others. Parents should not be put into that situation.

Ms Whitmarsh talked in her presentation about therapist assistants. To what extent are those posts available? What is the HSE's attitude to creating those posts? How do our guests feel that would improve the service?

Ms Linda Whitmarsh

I thank the Deputy for her questions. The norm these days seems to be that vulnerable children are waiting for two to three years for therapies. I spoke about therapy assistance. There are family support workers in some of the CDNTs, who seem to help the therapists and do a bit of play with the child and go through a bit of occupational therapy. I feel that if there were therapist assistance, it could be an add-on course for someone from a social work environment or background. We should make these supports available. Even with regard to things such as augmentative and alternative communication, AAC, devices, we could have therapist assistants for speech and language who would deal only with devices. My little boy has a device to help him speak at the moment. It has broken many times. He has resorted to using YouTube, but that is another matter altogether. I have contacted the speech and language therapist a number of times via email and phone call about this device. It is taking time from her that she could be spending with other children.

What is the HSE's attitude to therapist assistants?

Ms Linda Whitmarsh

We have not got a concrete answer. It has been kind of ignored. The matter has been brought up a couple of times. I feel that therapist assistants would be brilliant for everyone. In the case of a speech and language therapist, that person could focus on the devices and bridge that gap. The same would apply to occupational therapists and physiotherapists. Such people could do the paperwork to take the pressure off the therapists so they could provide actual intervention to the children.

That makes sense. My final question is for Ms Holmes. All our guests are saying that the number one issue is the shortcomings in the therapy area. There has been a failure to manage that area and ensure our most vulnerable citizens have access to the essential therapies they need. However, the secondary point I am picking up is the fact that the HSE's communication is absolutely appalling and I wish to ask Ms Holmes about that. Is she aware whether the HSE is doing anything in particular to improve its communication? She talked about the importance of family forums. Have her local CDNTs been in contact with her about establishing such forums?

Ms Helen Holmes

I thank the Deputy. We are fortunate and unfortunate in a way. Dublin 12 is split between two CDNTs, which means we can see the parallels because we have parents attending both CDNTs. Different issues, such as the messaging system, have arisen. I told others that I got a text to cancel an appointment and another parent was able to tell me she does not get any such thing. Instead that parent has to ring and confirm the appointment is going ahead. There are different strategies that depend on the CDNT in question. For want of a better term, there are strengths and weaknesses to both. One of the disability managers has been proactive and has held many meetings on Microsoft Teams and Zoom to update parents, which is great. There are, of course, some parents who will not get those updates because they do not have email addresses but word of mouth can spread. We can tell other parents to ring wherever they are attending to find out what is going on. My experience is that one of the CDNTs in my area is quite proactive in dealing with communications. It may be the case that the CDNT in question has employed an administrative assistant, which takes a lot of the pressure off.

We keep raising the issue. As I said, there is a group of parents who meet up. That is how we are able to inform and empower each other. I am able to tell parents during a session what is going on for my child in one place and someone else can say that is not the case with regard to another child. We are putting the onus back on parents and telling them they need to contact the disability manager or key worker and ask the questions as to why something is not happening.

We are eager to establish the family forum. At our most recent review with one of the disability managers, we were told it will be another four of five months before that forum is set up. There does not seem to have been any mention of it in the other CDNT. That said, we are sending emails to try to find out the situation and keep the pressure on. We need forums set up as soon as possible. Parents need somewhere to be able to feed back their own experiences of dealing with the services.

I thank Ms Holmes for all the work she is doing.

I will speak to some of the statements about Down's syndrome. I have a nephew with Down's syndrome to whom I am very close. I have seen some of the failings within the system. I know that something as small as orthotics have become big issues. We are privileged to have the Delta Centre in Carlow. I do not know if our guests are aware of the facility. My nephew attends the centre, as do many others. It is a great facility. I work with disability services. The centre provides a great quality of life for those who attend and they do things like going out on a Friday night with their group. That is important. My nephew is in his 20s, as are the others with whom he is pally.

I find that getting a work placement for someone with a disability, whether Down's syndrome or something else, is an issue, even for a few weeks' work experience in a garden centre, a little restaurant or whatever. How do our guests find that situation? I feel that needs to be addressed better with regard to all services. There are always issues that we absolutely need to address. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has been to the fore and has met many disability groups in recent weeks. I know she is listening to all the concerns, which is what we need. That is important.

Ms Holmes spoke about getting services, including therapists. There is a two-year backlog in Carlow for children waiting for different services and therapists. That has become an issue. We cannot blame the Covid pandemic but it has played a part because it has disrupted disability services. At the moment, I am working with four or five families and trying to get them respite care. Overnight respite services were gone for the two years of the pandemic. I can only speak for my areas of Carlow and Kilkenny because I am well aware of the services there but I do not know if the same applies to other areas. In my area, day respite services for families started a few months ago. I know the same is being done in Wexford. It is working well but I feel families also need to have overnight respite as well. That is another issue on which our guests might come back to me. Are they aware of any overnight respite facilities?

There are considerable issues with regard to delays in the system. There is some funding available but not all that is necessary. We must make sure that we keep staff when we have them. We need to know why we are unable to get these services back up and running as quickly as we need them. I always feel that timing is crucial when it comes to children's treatment, as our guests will know. That is the case whether in the case of an assessment for autism or for a therapist, or whatever else. Timing is crucial.

When there is a backlog and the child is going to school, the school is looking for a report the parents do not have. That has become a huge issue. I understand there are flaws in the system that need to be addressed. In a way, I am giving more information than I am looking for. The witnesses will know all about Carlow before they go home. Is there anything else they might be able to fill me in on? Families are so good. Covid has been extremely hard for children with some sort of a disability so well done to all of the witnesses. They have been brilliant. The Government must now put funding into these services. I am a firm believer in that. We need to get these children in as soon as possible.

Ms Nicola Hart

I did not bring information on employment with me today but Down Syndrome Ireland has an employment programme to support both employers and people looking for employment. Some of it comes back to the same thing. It is about getting the early intervention going and getting therapies through school, not just as a pilot programme but actually integrated into the school system. I do not know why we need pilots for everything. Some 80% of children in Australia get their therapy in school. Why are we still putting children out? Why are we not employing therapists in education? That then hopefully steers people onto a pathway where they may be looking towards further education. We are working with the ETBs to get more accessible courses and some of the Down Syndrome Ireland courses into ETBs. Those might be courses that help develop employment skills. We would then work with employers to get easy-read contracts and other things to facilitate that process. It all starts at the beginning with getting the basics right.

Ms Helen Holmes

Unfortunately, respite is extremely hard to get into in Dublin. Regarding employment, we have a fantastic local initiative called WALK that the committee might have heard of. Senator Seery Kearney would be well aware of it. It gets employment opportunities for adults with intellectual disabilities and runs respite as well, which is fantastic. That is extremely difficult for people under the age of 18. Pre-Covid, parents would have accessed some form of respite and home help and that has gotten back up and running. In one case where there are behaviour issues, a parent who was looking for respite was steered towards thinking about residential care for her son. What kind of system is that, when we are not even willing to put the tools and supports in place to help a child thrive? The answer given was residential care. This child is seven years of age. His parents are well aware that when he gets older that may be somewhere he will need to be but why is everything else not tried first? I cannot understand in this day and age why residential care is being recommended for a seven-year-old. It is very upsetting.

In respect of therapists, we have found something with a lot of the families that are accessing any form of service, communication or support from the CDNTs. We have not done a poll on this but I think the results would be quite interesting if we did. A lot of these families have had to go down the legal route. They are getting certain things because they have engaged with solicitors and had a court case. There are statistics on how much money the HSE spends every year fighting these court cases and kicking the ball down the road. It is the children, families and adults who are left to suffer. That seems to be the mindset. That mindset and the system need a big overhaul.

I apologise for not being here earlier; I was at a different committee meeting. I have read the opening statements. I do not want to go over questions that might have been asked so I will make more of a comment. It was depressing reading all the statements. It seems relentless. Every time people like the witnesses come in here, we feel we have such an uphill battle of unmet needs. We know that because we hear it continuously and speak to people. Every single day of the week we speak to people about their heartache and the torture involved. It is not only the job of looking after their child but the job of engaging with services. The toll, heartbreak and torture that puts on a family is incredible. Ms Whitmarsh spoke about the regression of her child during lockdown. Unfortunately, that is not unusual. It is an incredible shame that we are in this situation.

Something came onto my desk this week and I wanted to know if it is common. I am talking about letters coming from the HSE telling parents their child has been on a list and asking them to confirm whether the child should still be on that list. Tasking a parent with diagnosing or assessing their child is horrendous. To put that medical or professional job onto a parent - not that they are not capable - is uncalled for and it is happening over and over again.

There are so many blockages in the system. We need an entire shake-up. The system is not working because it is broken. There is no support for staff who want to shine. I know a person who was told to settle down when she asked if she could give free yoga classes to some of her clients in a different service because it might make other staff members look bad. That is horrendous. This is happening in our HSE system. I do not have much of a question but I just wanted to tell the witnesses that they have this committee's support. We listen to them and we are constantly depressed by what we hear and are pushed and urged to do more. Go raibh maith agaibh.

Gabhaim mo bhuíochas leis na finnéithe ar fad. The work they are doing is commendable. I should not have to commend them for looking after their children. That is the job of a parent. The job of the State is to deliver rights and services. What we have heard today, and for many years, is that the State has failed and is still failing. I know the Dublin 12 campaign group very well. They are a tremendous group of people who have come together out of frustration, as have other organisations. Most community organisations usually come from frustration with the State for not delivering but in this case it is even more horrendous. The State is basically asking parents who have their hands full to give up more of their time to advocate for their own children and also to try to help other children. The last time we met, at the protest outside the new school in Dublin 12, parents had heard that day that the HSE was going to give them some courses or a few tips to help them along the way while they waited for the service, or even an assessment, to be delivered. I could feel the parents' frustration on that day. They had been waiting and waiting. They presumed the new special school in Crumlin would do the devil and all, as they were promised.

It is great it is there and that we have an educational facility. We will try to fix it, as we try to fix everything. The parents ended up having to come back out on the streets to gather and express their frustration at still having no services and no therapists - in effect, it had gone backwards at that stage. The frustration was palpable on that day and a few times since, when parents contacted me to ask what they can do and where they can go.

Ms Whitmarch said the HSE was referring people to her. That happens across the board and, in some ways, it is an acknowledgement of the HSE's inability to deliver services. It is also an expression of Ms Whitmarch’s expertise and the expertise of the other parents. However, that should not happen because it is wrong. It is a disgrace. While it is testament to the empowerment that has happened, it should not be the case. If we can fix that in any way, we will do it.

Parents contact me on another issue. There was recently a concentration around special school at primary school level and there now seems to be a greater shift towards secondary school. Over the years that I have been a Deputy, many of the parents, who are often quite elderly, had a frustration as to what happens in later years when they are not strong enough or are in ill health. They ask what will happen to their child. They ask what services will be there when the child finishes secondary school at the age of 18, where they will go and where is that progression. Will the HSE have caught up with the parents or with the child, who is an adult at that stage? What services are missing at that stage for late teenagers and those going into early adulthood? The witnesses might be able to help us on that.

I commend the work of the committee and in particular the witnesses and those who are using their time to help others and help their children where the State should be delivering a service.

Thank you. I call the witnesses to respond.

Ms Linda Whitmarsh

I will go back to Deputy Murnane O’Connor's question on inclusivity. We have a long way to go on inclusivity and not just in regard to working for these children. I had an eight-year old standing with me in a shopping centre, waiting in a queue. He is quite noisy and he is quite overwhelmed, and I have no option but to bring him in. Adults are staring at him. What hope do we have to include him and to get him to live an independent life when there is still so much that has to be done around awareness and inclusion?

On the issue of respite, in Cavan we only have respite of one week for children and one week for adults, which is not good enough at all. Our committee includes the parents of a 15-year-old girl. She has intellectual disabilities and chromosome deletion and has very high, complex needs. She only recently went into respite because she can be quite aggressive. It is not her fault; it is her needs. The parents are begging for respite and begging for help. They seem only to get the respite for two days every ten weeks and they cannot cope. Because that 15-year-old’s needs are so high, when she goes into respite, instead of having four clients there, there is only one other client. Instead of it being the highest standard of respite to care for the highest needs and to have four people with the highest needs, that girl is not getting the respite she is entitled to because of her complex needs, if members know what I mean. Something has to be done.

Senator McGreehan referred to unmet needs and spoke about it being relentless. Therapists are giving me advice without ever seeing my child, without knowing what he looks like. As someone said, they would not be able to pick him out of a line-up. These are voiceless children, literally voiceless as they are non-verbal. It is the most harrowing thing about having a child with additional needs - you have to put yourself out there and you have to fight. It is a constant fight and a constant battle. The thing that haunts you is the passing of time, the regrets and also what is going to happen when you die. Is this child going to be in residential care? What way is he going to be treated? How is he going to feel? Are they going to know to leave his curtains open at night as he likes the bright lights in the night sky and the moon shining in at him? Is he going to have that rural environment and be looking out at the cows? Of course not. That is what haunts us the most. This beautiful child that you would do anything for has got additional needs and sees the world in a completely different way. He is helpless and so am I because the HSE is tying our hands, with no intervention and no support. There is no foresight even to have the clinical staff on the workforce planning committees instead of having managers, who are fantastic but they may not have worked with a child in 15 years. We need to have people on the ground who know what is going on and know how bad things are so these children can progress.

I feel that the longer a child is waiting for intervention, the closer they are getting to residential care. My husband always makes this analogy about PDS. All of the parents are running for the same loaf of bread. We are all running to get these crumbs for us, for our children and for our families. This is what we are all doing now. It is about us all standing up together and saying we are not going to take that piece of bread from them. We are going to go to the bakery and demand that they make more bread because that is what has to be done. With all the help and support, we will get there and it will take time. However, let us not have another family of an eight-year-old who is non-verbal waiting three years and having to go as public as I have to get one hour of services yesterday and an hour in March because I went to a TD.

I thank Ms Whitmarsh. That was very powerful.

Ms Nicola Hart

To pick up on the comment about people being referred to Ms Whitmarsh, I took a phone call a few months ago from the constituency office of a Government Minister asking Down Syndrome Ireland how to get speech and language therapy for a child with Down’s syndrome. We do have some therapy services in some of our branches but those are funded by parent contributions and people shaking buckets. That is who people are being referred to. That should not have to be the case. The call was not from the Minister themselves and I have to make that clear; it was from the constituency office. However, when someone is phoning a charity that has to fundraise to provide the basic services those children should have, that is appalling.

The transition to adulthood is a huge issue. Members heard me talk earlier about the difference in life expectancy for people with Down’s syndrome in particular. There is usually some funding year-on-year for school leavers to access HSE day services but if someone does not take up that funding as a school leaver, it is very hard to find a pathway in at a later stage. If someone had a decent service and is doing well and has gone through mainstream school or is in a position where, rather than looking at a day service, they are looking at further education or maybe employment, families are not doing that because of fear. If someone does that when they are 18, then when they are 30 and their parents are another 12 years older, and the person is another 12 years older and their needs might have changed, there is no way back in to those services and there is no pathway except the school leaver pathway. That is a disincentive to people to go and be included in society. It is a structural issue that needs addressing.

We are seeing heart-breaking cases. I have had phone calls from parents in their 80s who are looking after children with Down’s syndrome in their 50s who have early onset dementia and they are being told there is no residential place until somebody else dies.

I would not want to be in that situation in my 80s. I do not believe any one of us would.

Ms Helen Holmes

I have been sitting here thinking about how to respond to the questions. Our campaign has been going for four years now. As he will know, Deputy Ó Snodaigh has been a great support to us from day one. We appreciate all of his help. He comes out to the protests and always answers our queries. It makes us feel like someone is listening, which is a great thing. I never thought I was going to be the parent who goes out and protests, who makes the phone calls and who has to, for lack of a better word, fight with people to get scraps of services for my child. That appears to be the way the system is moulding parents. You are basically told that, unless you shout the loudest, your child will not get anything. That is okay if you are somebody who can be out there with a campaign or who is on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter and who has a backing, but what about the parent at home who cannot get out to these meetings to show support? They may want to but have no one to do it.

Many parents are in situations like mine. Since I was 20 years of age, after college, I have always been in the workforce. When Adam was given his diagnosis, a decision had to be made as to what was best for our family. That meant surviving on one income so that I could be at home to support Adam. We spoke about this situation a little bit. I refer back to what we said about the difference the assistance of an occupational therapist or a speech and language therapist would make. There are many parents like me who are home carers and who would love to get back to some form of education. I am a parent with a background working in finance but, because this whole world has been opened up to me through my son, I wish I could make an impact and difference. I do that through the campaign but I would like to do something longer term and to get some education in that area. That is food for thought.

Another thing that strikes me today, which members will have seen on their news feeds this morning, is the Department of Education's emergency response to the shortage of school places. This is causing absolute uproar and panic among parents and campaigns this morning.

The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, came to our area. By all accounts, she is really eager to listen to stories. The stories that struck parents most on the night were those from elderly ladies who spoke about the struggle of caring for their adult children. A parent told us all about the fantastic work they do in the community but it is very upsetting, when starting out on your journey, to think you will still be fighting this battle with the system and having to stand up every day when you are in your 60s, 70s and 80s. That is not how the system should work.

I thank Ms Whitmarsh, Ms Hart and Ms Holmes for their powerful testimony this morning. Those of us on the committee are here each Thursday morning hearing testimony from families, carers and people with additional needs. This morning's contributions have been very forceful and very strong. As Chair of this committee, members of which have a great passion for improving services and standards of living for people with disabilities, their carers, their communities and their families, I will say that this morning's testimony has challenged us greatly. As I said when I was appointed Chair of this committee, there is no doubt in my mind that a future Taoiseach of this country will have to apologise in the Dáil Chamber on behalf of the State for the services provided for people with intellectual disabilities. This already happened to some degree last week with regard to the two kids who were awaiting second level education. There are challenges out there and difficulties and obstacles that must be faced. Some members spoke about it not being a question of money. There is a certain attitude out there. Ms Whitmarsh alluded to it when she spoke about the world staring when she has her son with her. Over the past decade alone, we have come an awful long way as a society with regard to social issues but we have to go further immediately with regard to people with additional needs. We have to challenge society to do that.

Ms Whitmarsh talked about the therapist assistants or assistant therapists - whatever the term is. That title does not exist within the HSE but it is a powerful thing we should all be pursuing. Special needs assistants in schools have made a great impact with regard to school services. It is something that needs to be done. I meet parents and I see on a personal level the challenges and roadblocks that exist. There is no doubt the Covid pandemic has had an awful impact. The two years of the pandemic and the first lockdown had a very big impact on people with additional needs. The July provision is coming up soon. There is adequate funding for it but the system is not capable of delivering it. It is not an issue of funding but that the system is not capable of delivering this provision. It is the same in respect of therapist recruitment. If a multinational company were coming to Ireland, would we be able to go to the embassies and recruitment fairs to bring in the necessary workers? What do we have to do? Do we have to pursue the concept of therapist assistants so that more people of all ages can get more therapies? Those are the challenges.

Respite services were available four or five years ago but they are now an absolute luxury. It is now family funerals and different seismic events in families' lives that are being covered by respite care. That was not the case before and we must return to that. The State is and has been failing people with disabilities and we have to challenge that.

As a committee, we are charged with ensuring the UN Convention on Rights of Persons with Disabilities is being implemented, but we have to ensure the optional protocol is not being debated in any Department or subject to any administrative measures. We have to make sure we are stoking that fire.

I thank Ms Holmes, Ms Whitmarsh and Ms Hart for their evidence and testimony this morning. I ask them not to be strangers to us. If they think we are failing in our job as a committee or if there is additional information they think we need to have, they should feel free to send it to the extremely hard-working team behind us who are doing an amazing job. I thank members for their sincerity in what they are doing. I ask them to reflect on what the witnesses have said to us. We will try to raise these issues at every possible level. I genuinely believe that, if enough noise is made, there is capability to deal with them. As I said before, it might not be enough to bang the drum. The percussionists need to get on the stage to make sure we are highlighting the issues the witnesses are facing every day. I again thank the witnesses, the members and our team for being here this morning.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.48 a.m. until 9.45 a.m. on Thursday, 2 June 2022.
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