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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC REGULATORY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Sep 2009

Regulatory Reform: Discussion

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Dr. Gary Healy, financial regulatory practitioner. I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Oireachtas or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask members and witnesses to switch off their mobile phones as, even in silent mode, they adversely affect the broadcasting transmission.

I propose that we hear a short presentation by Dr. Healy, following which members will have the opportunity to ask questions. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Dr. Gary Healy

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to address the joint committee. I have circulated to members a number of slides which I will address briefly to allow time for questions and answers.

I will begin by outlining for the committee my background and experience. I am a utility regulator rather than a financial expert and my experience in the past ten years has been in the area of telecommunications regulation. I was a director of ComReg for seven years and subsequently completed a PhD in telecommunications regulation. Since leaving ComReg I have worked as an adviser to a number of regulatory organisations, governments and the European Commission. I am currently working for PricewaterhouseCoopers as a regulatory and telecommunications strategy adviser. I stress that the views I express to the committee are based on my research and experience of the economic regulatory sector, as opposed to the financial regulatory sector. I apologise in advance if the slides have a slant towards telecommunications regulation but I hope the information I provide can also be applied to other economic regulators in the energy and transport sectors.

The areas I intend to address include value for money, measuring effectiveness and efficiency of utility regulators, roles and functions and opportunities for merging regulators. I also wish to spend some time discussing governance structures for regulators and who ultimately regulates the regulators, in other words, issues of accountability and independence. In regard to each topic, I will recommend certain changes to the present regime to provoke debate and questions among members.

In regard to value for money, effectiveness and efficiency, a key distinction can be made between an effective regulator and an efficient one. Research has highlighted that an effective regulator is able to reach its goals, which typically comprise prices in the market or levels of competition. An efficient regulator achieves these goals at the lowest possible cost. Unfortunately, there is limited academic literature on how this problem should be approached. Independent regulatory agencies have only been in existence in Ireland for the past ten years and academics have not yet put their minds to the questions of regulatory effectiveness or efficiency. As Minister for Finance, the Taoiseach in 2007 launched an examination of the role of economic regulators in the Irish context but unfortunately a report has not yet emerged from this exercise.

Although studies have also been carried out on energy regulators, I shall focus on two studies which look at how the Irish telecommunications regulatory regime has performed in terms of value for money. The European Competitive Telecommunications Association, ECTA, which represents alternative operators in Europe, surveys European telecommunications operators and regulators and publishes a regulatory scorecard. In 2008, this scorecard concluded that ComReg had a strong regulatory framework in terms of an effective legislative basis, procedures and policies. However, they found that the impact on the market was weak. The extra study does not look at the cost efficiency side. It does not look at regulators in terms of what they cost, their staff and their budgets. The UK normally tops this regulatory league table and has a positive regulatory regime — most market outcomes there are neutral. In terms of effectiveness and efficiency, this study shows a bias towards more regulation rather than effective regulation. One of the issues is, despite the practices, procedures and regulatory regime that are in place relating to telecommunications regulation, market outcomes are very weak.

I will now address a second study that was carried out by a number of academics, one of whom is a regulator in Italy. It compares the cost of regulators, including the cost of staff, with market outputs and it took account of the price of a typical call in a certain market and the level of competition there. For example, the study looked at outputs such as the cost of a three-minute call and the level of market share of alternative operators. This was seen as a way of gauging the effectiveness of the regulatory regimes in certain countries and it directly relates to the cost of effort. The issue was whether regulators had an impact on their markets, given the work they did, and Ireland came 15th of the 18 countries measured. This implies that the efforts of ComReg are less effective and efficient than most of the other regulators involved. The study measured more dynamic market outcomes, including broadband and investment, and in this regard Ireland came 18th of the 18 countries measured. In terms of broadband take-up and investment performance, ComReg was deemed least effective at moving the market forward.

I will now put forward a number of recommendations to improve this situation. Regulators should be obliged to present fully costed work programmes for consultation annually and these should be scrutinised by the Oireachtas committee and by stakeholders in the sector. In a way, work programmes are already published by regulators and budgets are published on websites, but it is important that regulatory impact assessments should form part of such programmes — expected market outcomes should be quantified.

The central functions of regulators should be examined. Regarding value for money, a number of areas, including ICT, finance and human resources, are shared among regulators but there is no reason these cannot be managed in the same way as in Departments. In terms of cost base, this would allow regulators to concentrate on the key activities assigned to them through legislation. The expert skills held by regulators could be recognised by using them in advisory roles. Regulators can act as policy think tanks and this is what happens in the Danish market; the Danish regulator acts as a key advocate for ICT policy. In many countries such activities by regulators require funding from central government. For example, in the Netherlands the telecom regulator receives between 5% and 10% of its budget from central funds. However, this activity would ultimately bring about a cost saving as the expertise used by the regulator could also be used by Departments and would advance studies in a more effective way. For example, a next generation network study is going on at the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and both the Department and ComReg have issued consultations but it would make more sense if there was only one consultation with both the Department and ComReg putting forward policy and regulatory options at the same time. This would also save the industry money in terms of responding to consultations.

Moving on from the issue of value for money, I want to address the roles and functions of regulators, particularly the merging of regulators. The next slide shows the number of regulators we have in the economic regulatory sector. Concerns were raised in 2004 regarding the cost and lifespan of regulators. The Enterprise Strategy Group report commented on this, as did the better regulation White Paper, which called for the ongoing assessment of the need for sectoral regulators. This issue has been debated in this committee. There is an ongoing need to ensure regulators reflect the markets they regulate. In this regard, attention must be paid to technological changes. There are several proposals for merging regulators. Slide No. 8 shows a regulatory merger map which, if one looks from left to right, shows the ground proposals for how regulators will be merged. Concerning aviation, I am not aware of any plans to change the existing status of the aviation regulator. The taxi regulator will be merged within a larger Dublin-national transport authority. The energy regulator was discussed as part of a network regulator in the enterprise strategy group report. It may be better to have a super regulator with responsibility for energy and telecommunications. At present ComReg and the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland are two separate regulators. It has long been proposed that this does not make sense in terms of the market; that the two overlap and that there is convergence in the market which they regulate. The McCarthy report proposed that ComReg and the BAI, as that body is now constituted, should merge. There are clear synergies in spectrum policy and broadcasting remit, and the markets they regulate are converging. Although there are no firm proposals in place in terms of trends within the European market, it would make sense to see these regulators merge. This has been the case in the UK with Ofcom, and also with the Italian regulator.

I have some points about the super-regulator as discussed previously. There are a number of positives in this regard. It would be a network regulator covering energy and telecommunications. The argument advanced by the enterprise strategy group stated that the number of legal resources would be deeper and the ability of a large organisation to lobby heavily for its own agenda would be diminished by having a larger regulator. There are negatives, however. A larger regulator may be slow to respond and may find that issues are difficult to deal with on a prompt basis. There are models in existence, however. The German regulator, for example, is a postal communications and energy regulator. We need to look at this matter when we examine what might be the best regulatory structure to emerge when we are merging regulators.

Slide No. 9, which is floated in terms of roles and functions, looks again at governance of regulators. This is an issue which has not really been discussed in much detail. Normally the regulators are single-person or multi-person authorities and can be part-time or full-time. There are several governance models which have been applied in a number of jurisdictions around Europe and elsewhere. The approach in Ireland has been to adopt a three-person commission model, particularly for utility regulators. In some cases, all three persons have been appointed. In the case of the energy and communications regulator, five or six years ago there were two people in charge but now there are six. The argument put forward is that the issues the regulators are dealing with are more complex but the six commissioners are also supported by a layer of senior directors and experts within their team. I believe the single CEO and regulatory board which has been proposed for the recently established BAI is probably the most common structure. Two thirds of telecom regulatory authorities, most notably Ofcom in the UK, comprise a board with a single CEO. The Broadcasting Act is a good way in which to bring forward the CEO and large board model, particularly if a merger is to be proposed between the BAI and ComReg. A large board also mitigates the risk of regulatory capture which can occur if a small number of regulators and a small number of people in the industry are interacting.

In slide No. 10, I move to the issue of accountability. In this area there has been a growing phenomenon in the past ten years whereby this regulatory model has seen independent regulators that are separated from Government. "Independence" implies there can be political interference, particularly if the regulatory entities are State-owned, and therefore it is important to have independence. Studies conducted in recent years have shown that Irish regulators are very independent. Gilardi in 2003 showed that when we are creating regulators here we have created them in a very independent way. Independence creates a number of issues, however, with regard to accountability and delegated authority. How do we ensure that regulators respond to issues of policy and to organisations such as this committee or the Dáil? We must recognise that, in reality, no regulator is truly independent — no regulator should be truly independent. A number of studies in the United Kingdom have shown that regulators tend to come from a particular group of people who are either from the public sector or former civil servants who are aware of how to negotiate and operate within the government sector. Regulators, particularly in this case, are very aware of their responsibilities in terms of policy and where they fit within the organisational structure of government.

A number of regulators are subject to policy decisions and directions and in a number of areas actually co-operate with their parent Departments in terms of secondment. In the context of the national broadband strategy, for example, ComReg seconded a number of staff to the Department. This is obviously very good in sharing expertise between the Department and the independent regulator but it shows that the independence is in many ways not as clear-cut as one might assume from looking at the legislation.

One of the areas it is important to examine, as an example, is spectrum policy. The sale of spectrum licences to mobile wireless companies is a lucrative source of funding for government and in many jurisdictions the power to allocate licences is kept by the Minister or the government. In Ireland the power is shared between ComReg and the Minister. ComReg is the independent regulator and its objectives are to promote, not to distort, competition, yet it proposes to auction all mobile phone licences when they come up for renewal. The existing operators in the market do not have the option to have their licences renewed. Their licences finish at the end of 15 years and are not being rolled forward. Instead, the regulator is negotiating renewal terms and, effectively, asking the operators to bid by auction for their business.

The auction process will raise revenue for the Government but it will distort and destroy competition and investment because operators will not be sure they will have a licence to operate beyond the licence expiration date. When representatives of ComReg appeared before the committee recently, they listed as an achievement the amount of money ComReg had raised from spectrum fees for the State. This is obviously good for the State in raising much needed funds but in terms of independence, is ComReg's role not to assert the need to have effective competition and a lack of distortion in the market? That example shows that independence is sometimes blurred; therefore, we must examine accountability in that regard.

There are a number of typical accountability measures in place. I will not go through them in detail but concern persists that existing accountability measures for independent regulators do not promote their effectiveness or efficiency. A number of these measures are useful in explaining what the regulator has done, in terms of annual reports and whether the regulator has spent its funding properly in terms of audited accounts and strategy statements but they do not necessarily promote the idea that the regulator needs to be accountable for its effectiveness and efficiency.

I wish to make a number of proposals relating to effectiveness and efficiency and put forward a number of ideas which I believe would promote more transparency and accountability for regulators and those who deal with them on an ongoing basis. In addition to the provisions discussed in the earlier slide, the publication of the work programme I mentioned and the full costing of that programme on an annual basis would allow the people dealing with the regulator and those interested in the regulator's priorities to understand where the funding is going and what priority the regulator is giving to various issues. It should set out particular metrics relating to effectiveness, for example, what the regulator expects the market outcome to be if the regulator is introducing a particular measure or scrutiny of the industry. It should state whether it will have a particular effect in the market. An annual statement of performance assessing that impact and whether it has happened should also be published by the regulator at the end of every year.

A final point should be made about utility regulators. They are temporary institutions. They were created to facilitate market opening and allow competition to emerge and small operators to gain access to what were formerly State-owned assets. As they are temporary institutions, there must be a continuous review of sunset provisions. Then we need to think about the role of these regulators and their continuing contribution. If they have residual roles should they be passed to the Competition Authority or a super regulator as their remits become narrower?

I am reminded of what Etain Doyle, the first director of telecommunications regulation, used to say. She said that as a regulator if she was doing her job properly, she would do herself out of a job. I thank members for their attention and I welcome their questions.

I am not familiar with the concept of regulatory capture. What does that mean?

Dr. Gary Healy

As one deals on a daily basis with the same companies, particularly companies one is regulating, one gets familiar with and adopts their agenda. One is captured by the agenda of the company one is regulating. That is more likely to happen with a single person regulator whereas a board comprising several people with different interests and backgrounds, some of which may be more consumer-based, might examine the decisions of the regulator in a more objective way. Regulatory capture has been seen to happen on occasion with regulators because of the close contact they have had with each other on a regular basis.

I get the impression that has happened with ComReg and the CER. They have become too close to the industry and they have been prepared to agree staggered price reductions rather than imposing price reductions on companies that can well afford to cut their prices.

Dr. Gary Healy

I can only speak from my own experience within ComReg. It was something I did not recognise in the office. What normally happens with a regulator is a compromise solution emerges. As a regulator, one is looking at the issue for the consumer in terms of prices while examining the impact on the company one is regulating in terms of investment. For example, with regard to mobile termination rates, the regulator has decided not to intervene directly with mobile operators to impose particular prices, although it has the power to do so. The regulator has allowed a consensus or voluntary arrangement to emerge among the operators. It is good if the operators can come to such solutions. It results in a reduced regulatory burden on them and the regulator but the risk in such a transaction is that there is less transparency in the market. There is no consultation with the regulator and there is not clear transparency about their objectives. There is a risk, therefore, of regulatory capture.

The intention of a work programme would be to get away from that, in that the regulator would set out his or her stall at the start of the year and outline what he or she would do and all the industry participants could comment on that. This is the case elsewhere and particularly in Denmark. However, after that, the regulator would be unable to move from that and, therefore, he or she could not be lobbied or could not change his or her mind regarding priorities as the year goes on.

I thank Dr. Healy, whose presentation raised several interesting questions, including whether the various regulators are working effectively and efficiently and whether they are up to standard internationally. I am concerned that ComReg is ranked 15th out of 18 and 18th out of 18 on various lists, which is poor. I would like such information to be included in annual reports. Wherever there is a potential benchmark internationally, the ranking of the Irish regulator relative to its counterparts in other countries should be highlighted. The 2008 ECTA regulatory scorecard is complicated but I am sure it could be simplified. I cannot understand it because it is not colour coded and, therefore, the information is meaningless. If there were colours, it would have been more helpful. However, that is neither here nor there.

Why are the regulators not more ready to benchmark themselves or match themselves against regulators in other countries? This would improve efficiency, value for money and the response for the industry and consumers in Ireland? Is there a capacity to do this? Does Dr. Healy think it would be useful for the greater good economically and to give better value?

Dr. Healy referred to the 15 year licence for mobile phone companies. There are only three or four such companies and each of them appears to have mass usage. If a competitor comes in after year 15, will these companies be at a particular advantage, from the point of view of having a physical system up and ready throughout the country? How can ComReg or whoever is conducting the "beauty contest" or auction make the playing field more level for potential new competitors in the market?

I am interested in the length of time it takes to engage in consultations and deal with complaints. If we believe something is needed in the Irish market because it has worked well in another country, how does the time it takes for our regulators to engage in consultations compare with that in other countries? Are they effective in seeking information, responding to and disseminating it and coming to a decision and conclusion? Do we do it in time or does it take so long that any benefit from an early roll-out is negated? How many complaints come in? Do we have more than in other countries? How long does it take to deal with them and what response is given? Is there benchmarking with other countries?

Perhaps my questions cannot be answered with an immediate yes or no, but I hope Dr. Healy will be able to respond to them in some way.

Dr. Gary Healy

It is disappointing that there is not more benchmarking of regulators, even in the Irish context. The study commissioned by the Department of the Taoiseach will be useful in looking at all of the regulators, including the Financial Regulator and the utility regulator. The study is intended to look at them in comparison with the position in other jurisdictions and different models. It is disappointing it has not been published. I look forward to its publication. It is the start of a process and we should carry on from it. We should make sure someone is looking at benchmarking.

In a number of jurisdictions there is an oversight group or committee, to which I did not refer in the presentation. In a number of countries someone, perhaps in a government Department, has the job of looking at how effective regulators are in the particular market. That person would have a budget to benchmark and survey regulators on a regular basis. A way to do this might be to make it a key responsibility of a Department or an individual to look at and collect information to assess how effective regulators are.

On the ECTA study, I would have been involved with ComReg, interacting with ECTA. ECTA does a major survey of all regulators and ComReg completes a very comprehensive questionnaire. Many of the issues the Deputy raised in his questions about complaints and disputes are addressed as part of that, including how effective the complaints mechanism is and how long it takes to get a complaint resolved. Part of its regulatory scorecard scores bodies such as ComReg on that. Therefore, the ECTA scorecard is very useful. The difficulty with it is that it works on behalf of the alternative operators. It states that more regulation is good. Whereas for the market as a whole that may not be what one wants. One wants effective regulation, not necessarily more regulation. The ECTA study is useful and ComReg co-operates with that. It would welcome more of that kind of benchmarking work perhaps also on the energy regulator side.

It would be looked at by a regulator in terms of looking at issues that it might not have seen in its market. It looks at other regulators on a regular basis to see if there are things they are doing that it could do. There is also considerable sharing of information with each other. It is not generally seen or transparent, but for stakeholders as a whole there is concern that the regulatory regime has changed but the cost stays the same so the levy for the industry stays the same. It is important for ComReg to come forward as I have suggested. It could do this itself. It could put some metrics in place and show that it expects a particular work programme to result in a particular market outcome and analyse in a year whether it achieved that, what went wrong and learn from that process.

Consultations are a difficult issue because regulators get complaints both that they do not give enough time and that they give too much time. There is normally a four to six-week consultation process, which normally gets extended because most operators want to have more time and need get resources together and so on. A bigger issue is the lack of notice that industry gets about consultation. A major consultation can appear on a Friday afternoon and the response time given to industry — or to anybody including the consumer — is only four or five weeks. That causes considerable frustration, particularly if these are major issues. Again this goes back to the work programme if there is not a clear strategy.

Going back to the mobile issue and the spectrum issue, ComReg has had two consultations already on that topic. It is proposing more interaction with mobile operators. It is not clear when there will be a final decision and the process started 15 or 16 months ago. More up-front planning by regulators on those kinds of issues would be useful, going back to the idea of a work programme which forces the regulator to sit down at a certain time and indicate its priorities for the following 12 or 18 months.

The point I was trying to get across on mobile telephony and the level playing field was that ComReg's role — and all regulators' role — is to ensure that competition is sustainable and not distorted in any way. Existing operators in the market have an advantage in that they are already offering services to consumers, but it does not make sense to stop all those services and start again to give everybody a level playing field. What normally happens in terms of the licence obligations is that a new operator is given a certain amount of time to get up to speed in terms of putting up masts and putting a network in etc. For example, Hutchinson entered the market in 2002 to 2003. Within two to three years it was operational and is now a very effective competitor. It is always difficult to find if there is a level playing field. That also applies in terms of the scale companies have. Vodafone, O2, Hutchinson and Meteor have different international presences and can bring cost efficiencies in from their international arms. It is always difficult to have a level playing field.

My main objective in making that point was to say that ComReg's role should be to advocate in terms of the industry and consumers having a continuity of service and ensuring there is no distortion. Therefore auctions did not really make much sense for the operators that already had licences. For new spectrum, there should be an auction, but for existing spectrum there needs to be a mechanism that would minimise distortion to competition and potential disruption to consumers and investors.

I welcome Dr. Healy and commend him on his well presented, succinct and clear document which he presented within the timeframe sought. I enjoyed the way he gave us the information.

I would like to ask a generic question about the accountability and transparency of regulators. I would like to highlight one of the issues with which this committee has dealt, without getting into the nitty-gritty of it. I refer to a dispute about the information an individual gave to the Financial Regulator. The Data Protection Commissioner was involved in the matter which eventually came before the courts. The professional view of the individual in question at the time was eventually vindicated before a committee. The questions of accountability and transparency need to be considered in that context. If a regulator gives someone information and then seeks it down the line, it should be entitled to receive the information in its entirety. How does the concept of freedom of information work in other jurisdictions? I do not know whether it applies to all regulators in this jurisdiction. I can put up my hands and say I do not have that knowledge. I would have thought that freedom of information would be a significant aspect of accountability and transparency. Obviously, sensitive financial and corporate information should not be released. Does Dr. Healy have a view on this? Many believe one of this country's problems was that the Financial Regulator was too close to the financial industry and that there was a lack of transparency. They were seen to be in each other's pockets. There was no clarity or independence of thought. Does Dr. Healy have a view on the matter?

Dr. Gary Healy

I do not think there is enough transparency among the various regulators. If one examines the issue of mobile termination rates, one will see that the details of the discussions were not clear to people in the market. It is obvious that there is a need to keep commercial negotiations and commercial data private. A number of industry stakeholders have said on a number of occasions that there needs to be more transparency. The documentation provided by the regulator, setting out its objectives and priorities, needs to be much clearer. That would avoid the issue of regulatory capture which I have mentioned previously. I have experience of working on the regulation of telecommunications in other countries. The issue of transparency usually arises when operators and people in the market want more transparency from the regulator. The regulator is usually caught between the need to try to find the best solution, despite not having complete information, and the need to ensure that solution is not open to legal challenge. Such constraints mean regulators often do not have a propensity to be as transparent as they should be. That is in the nature of how the dynamic has worked between the regulator, the regulated entity and the alternative operators since we opened up the markets. There is a conflict between the three parties and no one is ever happy with the solution. The regulator wants to find the best market solutions for consumers and competitors. The process of doing this means a great deal of information which could be discussed at various times is not discussed. I cannot really see a way of solving this. The staff of the regulator need to be given the scope to use the expertise and knowledge for which they were appointed to find the best solution. When a solution has been found, they need to be very clear about the steps they took in coming to a decision. They need to be totally transparent in their final decisions. Structural changes such as governance changes at board level would force regulators to be much more transparent in what they are doing. Such changes would force them to explain their decisions to a larger audience.

When I worked for ComReg, I witnessed changes in reporting, documentation and transparency in relation to the role of the European Commission. In 2003 or 2004 the Commission had the power to veto ComReg's decisions. As a result, we placed a much greater focus on the need to explain our decisions and the steps we took in making them to an outside body such as the Commission. The regulator was forced to think about the steps it was taking, as it knew the endgame would involve persuading somebody outside the organisation of the merits of its approach. The greater the oversight of a regulator and the larger the number of areas in which it must be accountable, whether through an Oireachtas committee or a board, the more its internal processes, communications and transparency will improve.

The problem is that the credibility of the Financial Regulator is theoretically in question. None of the processes in place dispels the view of members of the public that the Financial Regulator is too close to the financial industry. Notwithstanding Dr. Healy's comments, which I welcome, I still have not seen a step change that will make the Financial Regulator more transparent or accountable. The regulator is characterised by generic thinking and closeness to the industry and is not sufficiently open. It is unacceptable that a regulator would decide to refuse to provide someone with a record of a conversation. If such issues were handled in an open and transparent manner, it would give the system greater credibility.

Dr. Gary Healy

I agree. All regulators want to ensure they have credibility in the marketplace. Oversight will not come without external pressure on the regulator. This can be achieved in a number ways, for instance, by introducing better internal governance or greater external supervision. One such initiative in the United Kingdom was the establishment of a consumer panel which reports to Ofcom. The panel questions what the regulator is doing, asks the chief executive officer to report to it and so forth. As I indicated with regard to the European Commission, if a regulator believes its actions will be subject to oversight at the end of a process, it will be more transparent and open in its internal communications.

I thank Dr. Healy for his presentation. According to the document, the ECTA study concludes that ComReg is strong in implementing efficiencies but market outcomes are weak. I ask Dr. Healy to elaborate on this statement. The document also refers to a study done in March 2009 which ranked Ireland 15th on this measure and 18th in broadband investment. What has changed since the previous study was completed? We are ranked 15th out of 18 in terms of the impact of the regulator on markets, which is a very poor outcome. We are ranked last on broadband investment. Given that many of the countries covered by the study joined the European Union only recently, we should be well ahead of them.

Will Dr. Healy elaborate on his remark that no regulator is or should be totally independent?

Dr. Gary Healy

I apologise if the slides appear in black and white in the document, as they make little sense in that format. I will leave colour copies with the clerk.

As members will note from the third column from left, the study shows that all the procedures are in place in Ireland. The legislation is strong, as are ComReg's enforcement powers and procedures, and all the back room procedures and policies are in place. As the final pie chart shows, however, all the areas are weak in terms of market outcomes. In other words, the impact of all the effort ComReg has made does not appear to have flowed through to all the market sectors, including mobile telephony, broadband, fixed line and broadcasting.

Does a value for money question arise in terms of the role of ComReg?

Dr. Gary Healy

Yes, we need to examine this issue and ask whether the effort has been worthwhile. If the ultimate objective of a regulator is to achieve certain market outcomes in terms of competition and prices, why are we not seeing these outcomes in this instance? It should be noted that the ECTA study does not examine other factors which may affect market outcome.

Dr. Gary Healy

In the telecommunications market Chorus NTL is not regulated. It was regulated up until 2002 or 2003, and it has been quite successful in competitively delivering its products. The company that is probably most regulated by ComReg is Eircom. With mobile operators, there has been a more consensus-based approach. Why is ComReg more concentrated on fixed line regulation, which is represented in one of these charts? Why has that not been effective? What tasks is ComReg carrying out and are they leading to more competition and better access prices? Ultimately, there is a downside to this, which is the cost of regulation. That is not just the cost to ComReg, but to the industry, including the mobile operators and Eircom. They have to respond to this activity and to the market at the same time.

The second study is more interesting because it looked at value for money, and it compared the number of people employed by ComReg and its budget with those of other countries. It was a one-off study, so there is no earlier study with which to compare it. The people who completed the study made the comment that Ireland was among the accession countries. Where newly established regulators were in place, the Irish regulator had not performed as well. What policies has ComReg adopted which would have impacted broadband take-up? Can we make a causal connection between the two? It is quite difficult to do that, and the regulator needs to take those measures. If ComReg is setting out to launch a particular programme, it needs to ask itself what will be the impact of that initiative on broadband. Broadband is affected by price, competition in the market, the availability of capital and by people's propensity to take up broadband. They may not have the money to take up broadband. We have seen a slow take-up of broadband here, but the regulatory regime has not been the only factor that has caused that slow take-up. It is incumbent on the regulator to explain what the outcomes will be to its actions so we can measure the effectiveness that way.

What about the independence issue?

Dr. Gary Healy

Independent regulators are a new concept. In the research I have undertaken in the UK and in the Netherlands, I found that this has been a difficulty because an independent regulator does not report to the government. It does not have a standard of accountability that we would expect in any kind of democratic institution. The issue of accountability comes up, and a number of countries have dealt with it in different ways. In the Netherlands, they just do not understand the concept of independence. The Minister reports to the Parliament and the independent regulator must report to the Minister. There is no exception. The European Commission is concerned about these issues. It wants to ensure there is independence to make sure there is no political interference in the decisions of the regulator on a day-to-day basis. What has emerged has been an informal independence across a number of jurisdictions, especially in Ireland with its independent regulator, as there is much more informal contact between the regulator and the parent Department. Examples such as secondments and expertise sharing need to be recognised. We cannot stand back and say we are independent and, therefore, we do not have to be accountable, yet, at the same time, have those informal contacts. From that point of view, independence is a veil that people can see through at this stage. We need to recognise that and accept that the independent regulators are part of the Government structure and decision making, and use the expertise that is there for policy making, for supporting the Department and whoever needs that expertise.

I again thank members and Dr. Healy for his attendance, his forthrightness and his presentation. The meeting stands adjourned until either Wednesday, 16 September or the previous Tuesday. I will revert to members in this regard. I thank members and Dr. Healy for their attendance.

The joint commitee adjourned at 2.55 p.m. sine die.
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