JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Nov 2003

Vol. 1 No. 27

Gaelscoileanna: Presentation.

Chairman

Toisc nach bhfuil ach uair agus ceathrú againn, cuirfimid míreanna 1 go dtí 3 ar athló go dtí 11.30 p.m. Tá seirbhís aistriúchán ar fáil, a translation service is available for members if anyone wants to use it. We will do some of the business as Gaeilge agus an chuid eile as Béarla.

Cuirim fáilte roimh Cholm Ó Dúlacháin agus comhleacaithe Dónal Ó hAiniféin, Uachtarán ar Ghaelscoileanna agus Fionnuala Uí Chíosóig, feidhmeannach le Gaelscoileanna, atá anseo le labhairt linn faoin eagraíocht agus an obair atá ar bun aige. Tá céiliúradh 30 bliain ar siúl ag an eagraíocht i mbliana agus tréaslaím leo as sin.

Tá cosaint pribhléide anseo ag comhaltaí an choiste ach níl do lucht fianaise ach ní bheidh aon rud le rá acu a dhéanfadh dochar do dhuine ar bith. Ní chóir íde-bhéal a thabhairt d'aon duine nach bhfuil anseo agus nach bhfuil deis é féin a chosaint.

Mr. Colm Ó Dúlacháin

Tá leagan Béarla den méid atá le rá agam ar leathnach 9. I dtús báire, ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an gcomhchoiste as an chuireadh a thabhairt do Ghaelscoileanna teacht chun cainte leis ar maidin. Is mór an onóir dúinn an seans a fháil labhairt as Gaeilge agus achmainní aistriúcháin a bheith ar fáil dúinn. Níor iarramar sin ach táimíd an-bhuíoch dá bharr sin.

Is mise Colm Ó Dúlacháin, príomhfheidhmeannach nua-cheaptha ar Ghaelscoileanna. Bhíos mar eagraí náisiúnta leis an eagraíocht ó 1981 go dtí 1987. In éineacht liom ar maidin tá Fionnuala Uí Chíosóig, feidhmeannach na heagraíochta, agus Donal Ó hAiniféin, atá ina Uachtarán ar Ghaelscoileanna, ina phríomhoide ar Ghaelscoil Sáirséal, Luimneach agus mar bhall den Chomhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta. Tá beirt eile fostaithe linn. Is iad siúd Nora Ní Loingsigh, leas-phríomhfheidhmeannach agus oifigeach oideachais na heagraíochta agus Helmi Saidléar, ar a bhfuil cúram na hoifige. Beidh oifigeach forbartha ag tosú linn ag tús na míosa seo chugainn. An príomh-fhreagracht a bheidh ar an oifigeach seo ná pleanáil straitéiseach a dhéanamh ar bhunú agus ar bhuanú bunscoileanna agus iarbhunscoileanna lán-Ghaeilge ar fud na tire. Beidh siad ag obair in éineacht leis na comhairlí chontae, na bóird forbartha chontae agus dreamanna áitiúla chun an phlean is éifeachtaí a bhaint amach.

Ag comhdháil bhliantúil Ghaelscoileanna 2003 an deireadh seachtaine seo caite, rinneamar ceiliúradh ar an 30ú bliain den eagraíocht a bheith ag feidhmiú go h-oifigiúil. Bhí múinteoirí agus tuismitheoirí ann ós na Gaeltachtaí uilig agus ó Thuaisceart Éireann agus iad na dúshláin coiteann i measc múinteoirí, tuismitheoirí agus bóird bainistíochta á phlé acu. Chuir an Seanadóir Máire Uí Ruairc, Ceannaire an tSeanaid, fáilte roimh chách chuig a baile dúchais agus a teach dúchais ar a sheasann anois Óstan Bá Hodson. Sheol sí iris 30 bliain na heagraíochta, atá anois os comhair an choiste. D'oscail an tAire Gnóthaí Phobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta, Éamon Ó Cuív, an comhdháil bliantúil go hoifigiúil.

Nuair a bunaíodh Gaelscoileanna i 1973, ní raibh ach 13 bhunscoil agus cúig iarbhunscoil ag múineadh trí mheán na Gaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Anois, tá 149 mbunscoil agus 33 iarbhunscoil ag freastal ar os cionn 30,000 dalta sna 32 chontae lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Áit a bhfuil 109 mbunscoil lán-Ghaeilge sa Ghaeltacht, tá 123 taobh amuigh de. Thárla formhór an fháis seo a bhuíochas le bunú na heagraíochta i 1973 agus le fís na mbunaitheoirí. Thug Bord na Gaeilge - anois Foras na Gaeilge - maoiniú agus seirbhisí oifige dúinn ó 1979 ar aghaidh. Murab an tacaíocht seo on Stát, ní bheadh ar ár gcumas leath den méid atá bainte amach againn a bhaint amach agus táimíd an-bhuíoch as san.

Freastalaíonn ár scoileanna ar dhaltaí ó gach sórt cúlra sóisialta agus eacnamaíochta agus o chúlraí eagsúla creidimh. D'fhéadfaí teacht ar Ghaelscoil ó Chill Rois go dtií an Cnoc Theas i Luimneach agus go ceantair meán-aicmeach i gCorcaigh, Gaillimh no Baile Átha Cliath. Is faoi phatrúnacht an Easpaig atá roinnt de na scoileanna agus faoin Aire Oideachais agus Eolaíochta cuid eile. Tá scoileanna eile faoin bhForas Patrúnachta agus cinn eile fós faoi chuideachtaí príobháideacha, ar nós scoileanna leanaí, Coláiste an Phiarsaigh agus a leithéid. Is iad na tuismitheoirí a roghnaíonn sainmheoin creidimh na scoileanna, pé acu Caitliceach, idirchreidmheach nó ilchreidmeach.

Sa tslí chéanna, tá struchtúir éagsúla bainistíochta ag na hiarbhunscoileanna. Cé go bhfuil cuid mhaith acu faoi na hóird rialta, tá roinnt mhaith acu anois ag teacht faoi scáth na gCoisti Gairmoideachais. Bunaíodh aonaid lán-Ghaeilge in áiteanna nach raibh dóthain daltaí ann chun scoileanna neamhspleácha dara leibhéal a bhunú.

Ta sprioc faoi leith ag Gaelscoileanna leasuithe a chur i bhfeidhm i réimse an oideachais. Bheimís buíoch seans eile d'fháil amach anseo labhairt leis an gcoiste maidir leis an ngéarchéim soláthar oideachais ag an dara leibhéal agus an ngéirchéim cóiríochta ag an mbunleibhéal go speisialta.

Ba mhaith linn diriú inniu ar dhá réimse ata práinneach ó thaobh na Gaelscolaíochta de. Muna dtugtar aghaidh ar na réimsí seo, d'fhéadfai an-dhochar a dhéanamh do ghluaiseacht Ghaelscoileanna. Baineann siad, go príomhda, leis na critéir aitheantais atá de dhíth chun scoileanna nua a bhunú.

Faoin teidal "scoileanna i mbaol a dúnta", ar an 31 Márta seo caite, tháinig litreacha ón Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta chuig patrúin agus cathaoirligh i sé Ghaelscoil. D'fhógair an tAire gur chóir an t-aitheantas a tharraingt siar ó na scoileanna seo, de réir mir 11 den Acht Oideachais 1998. An bunús a bhi aige leis seo ná na critéir aitheantais reatha - se sin gur gá 17 naionáin shóisir a bheith rollaithe sa scoil gach blian don chéad tri bliana agus go gcaithfear 51 pháiste a bheith ann faoin am go mbíonn an triú blian bainte amach. Tháinig na critéir aitheantais seo leis na moltaí a bhí déanta ag an gCoimisiún um Chóiríocht Scoileanna anuraidh maidir le aitheantas do scoileanna nua.

Bhí na scoileanna go léir seo bunaithe, áfach, sular cuireadh an córas nua i bhfeidhm. Ní bhfuair formhór na scoileanna seo aitheantas, fiú amháin, go dti cúpla lá roimh tús na scoilbliana ina raibh siad le bunú. De réir mír 11(2) den Acht tá sé de cheart ag na scoileanna aighneacht a dhéanamh laistigh de trí mhí o dáta fógartha an aitheantais a tharraingt siar. I gcás trí chinn de na scoileanna, ghlac an tAire leis an achomharc, ach chinn sé ar trí chinn eile a dhúnadh. Cuirfear an cinneadh seo i bhfeidhm ón lá deireanach den scoilbhliain seo, sé sin, 30 Meitheamh 2004. In ainneoin na litreacha seo ón Aire, tugadh cuireadh do na scoileanna aighneacht bhreise a dhéanamh chuig an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta.

D'fhreastal mise, in éineacht le teachtaí ó na scoileanna agus ionadaí an phatrúin ar chruinnithe leis an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaiochta cúpla seachtain ó shin. Tá súil againn gur féidir teacht ar réiteach, fiú amháin ag an stáid seo, chun na scoileanna a choimead ar oscailt. Fiú más rud é go gcuirtear cinneadh an Aire i bhfeidhm agus go ndúntar na scoileanna, ní bheidh aon dul as againn ach cás cúirte a thógáil in aghaidh na Roinne, mar go gcreidimid nach bhfuil an cinneadh ag teacht de réir Achta. Bhí orainn feachtais a reachtáil cheana chun aitheantas d'fháil do scoileanna ar nós South Hill, Parklands agus Mahon. D'éirigh linn leis na feachtais sin agus déanfhaimíd arís é, más gá.

Fiú ma cheadaítear na scoileanna seo a fhágaint le haitheantas, níl mórán dóchas ann do scoileanna nua as seo amach. Tá Gaelscoileanna ar fáil i 31 chontae as 32. Níl aon Ghaelscoil i gContae Liatroma, cé go bhfuil tuismitheoirí sa cheantar tar éis tosú ar fheachtas le cúpla bliain anuas. Níl ach dhá nó trí oide i roinnt de na scoileanna áitiúla, fiú nuair atá siad lonnaithe i gcathracha móra, pé acu do buachaillí nó cailíní. Chaithfidh Gaelscoil, de réir na critéir aitheantais nua, suas le 17 a chlárú sa scoil gach uile bliain. Ní rogha oideachais a bhéas ar fail sa cheantar a thuilleadh mar go gciallódh sé seo, má ceadaítear Gaelscoil, go dhúnfhar scoileanna eile sa gceantair. Ni thógann an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta san áireamh sna critéir aitheantais do scoileanna nua go bhfuil difríocht ollmhór idir cheantair uirbeacha agus tuaithe.

Is scéal eile ar fad atá i dTuaisceart Éireann maidir le critéir aitheantais na scoileanna nua. Chun aitheantais sealadaigh a bhaint amach i gceantair lasmuigh de Dhoire agus Béal Feirste, ní gá ach 12 dhalta a fháil agus ins na cathracha féin, níl ag teastáil ach 15 dhalta ag teacht isteach gach blian. Dá mba rud é gur bhog dhá cheann de na scoileanna go bhfuil sé i gceist ag an Rialtas seo a dhúnadh, dá mbogfadh siad cúpla míle trasna an Teorainn ón áit ina bhfuil siad, beidís sábhálta fé Rialtas na Breataine. Scríobh Foras na Gaeilge chuig an Aire Oideachais agus Eolaíochta ag lorg na critéir aitheantais chéanna sa Deisceart is mar atá ar fáil sa Tuaisceart chun go mbeimid ar an leibhéal céanna sna 32 chontae. Tá Gaelscoileanna ag iarraidh ar an gcomhchoiste tacú le hachainí Foras na Gaeilge.

Ba mhaith liom a mheabhrú go bhfuil an Coimisiún um Chóiríocht Scoileanna beagnach réidh leis na moltaí maidir le critéir aitheantais d'iarbhunscoileanna lán-Ghaeilge nua agus don soláthar atá ann cheana féin a fhoilsiú. Tá an ghéarcheim chéanna in ann do iarbhunscoileanna. Arís, níl siad chun aon difríochta a athnú idir scoileanna tuaithe agus scoileanna uirbeacha. Má glactar leais na moltaí sin, ní bheidh aon iarbhunscoileanna neamhspleácha ar fáil lasmuigh dos na cathracha móra.

An dara réimse gur mhaith liom a phlé inniu na bunscoileanna nua. Ba mhaith liom díriú isteach ar an bpróiséas nua aitheantais a thosaigh don chéad uair an scoilbhliain seo caite. Bhíomar ag fáiltiú phróiseis a thabharfadh aitheantas do scoil ceithre mhí roimh thosach na bliana, seachas cúpla lá roimh 1 Meán Fómhair, mar a tharlaíonn faoi láthair. Is minic gur osclaítear scoileanna gan fiú amháin príomhoide a bheith ceaptha. Níor oibrigh an córas nua i mbliana, áfach, agus d'oscail scoileanna gan phriomhoidí toisc nach bhféadfaí "activating", mar a thugann an Roinn air, a dhéanamh ar an aitheantas a bhí faighte in Aibreán go dtí Lúnasa. Táimid tar éis an phróiséis agus na fadhbanna a bhain leis i mbliana a phlé leis an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta. Táimid ag súil go mbeidh aitheantas ag na scoileanna nua in am an bhliain seo chugainn agus go mbeidh príomhoidí fostaithe roimh thús na scoilbliana.

Bíonn orainn a chinntiú gur ón gceantar a thagann an t-éileamh sula dtéimid i mbun Gaelscoil nua a bhunú. Táimid ag obair, mar shampla, le grúpa in Áth Í chun Gaelscoile a bhunú faoi láthair. Tá formhór na dtuismitheoirí lena bhfuil muid ag obair i mBaile Átha Cliath. Bíonn ar an mbeirt tuismitheoir a bheith ag obair agus nuair a sroicheann siad an baile ag 7.30 a.m. caithfidh siad dul amach i mbun dualgais maidir leis an Ghaelscoil nua a bhunú. Bíonn orthu tuismitheoirí eile cosúil leo féin a aimsiú chun tabhairt faoi fheachtas scoil a bhunú. Bíonn orthu eolas a chur ar fáil, ocáidí poiblíochta a rith, dul ó dhoras go doras sa cheantar chun an líon daltaí atá de dhíth chun Gaelscoile nua a bhunú a fháil agus iarratas a chur ar aghaidh go dtí an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta.

Níl ansin ach tús lena chuid oibre, áfach, mar caithfidh siad cóiríocht shealadach oiriúnach a aimsiú a thagann leis na caighdeáin atá leagtha síos ag an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta agus leis na comhairlí áitiula. Caithfear mion-thuairiscí a sholáthar ó ailtirí, ó thiarnaí talún agus ó luachálaí cáilithe chun go bhféadfadh an Roinn teacht ar réiteach mar gheall ar an iarratas. Meabhraítear don choiste bunaithe go bhfuil an freagracht orthu, mar bhórd bainistíochta soláthar a dheanamh ar chóiríocht shealadach go dtí go dtógann an Roinn foirgneamh buan don scoil. Tógann sé suas le deich mbliana, ar a laghad, chun freagraíochta sin ar an lánúin óg ó Bhaile Átha Cliath, go mb'fhéidir go bhfuil an chéad teach tógtha acu agus go bhfuil an cúram seo orthu. Má dhiúltaítear don iarratas, ní bhíonn aon aisíoc ar fáil ar na costais seo go léir. Níl aon fhreagracht ag an bpátrun - an Easpag nó an foras pátrúnachta - na billí a bhaineann leis seo a íoc. Measann muid go gcosnaíonn sé suas le €30,000 ar ghrúpa tuismitheoirí, ón gcéad chruinniú go lá oscailte na scoile, feachtas a thabhairt chun críche. Ní bhíonn lánúin atá ag ceannach tí don chéad uair in ann na costais seo a sheasamh.

Roimhe seo, cuireadh i leith na nGaelscoileanna go rabhamar meán-aicmeach agus ardnósach. Ní raibh sé seo fíor, ag tógaint san áireamh go bhfuil scoileanna againn i ngach sórt ceantair den tír. As seo amach, áfach, cuirfear Gaelscolaíocht ar leataobh dóibh siúd nach bhfuil airgead acu muna nglacann an comhchoiste lenár moladh. Ba chóir don rannóg pleanála agus tógála páirt ghníomhach a ghlacadh nuair atá na coistí bunaithe ar thóir chóiríochta shealadacha. Ba chóir go ndíolfadh sé as costais na n-ailtireachta, cead pleanála agus na cáipéisí eile atá á lorg ag an Roinn chun an iarratais ar Ghaelscoil nua a mheas.

Ba mhaith liom labhairt ar Ghaelscoileanna nua i gceantair ata ag forbairt - "greenfield sites". Tar éis 30 bliain de Ghaelscoilíocht a bheith ag fás, tá sé cruthaithe againn go bhfuil éileamh an-mhór ag teacht ón bpobal do sholáthar oideachais lán-Ghaeilge ag gach leibhéal ar fud na tíre. In ainneoin seo, níl an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta ná na comhairlí áitiúla ag cur talaimh, nó "landbank", ar leataobh i gceantracha nua do Ghaelscoileanna. Faoin dtaca go bhfuil na pobail socraithe isteach sna ceantair nua seo, ní bhíonn aon foirgnimh nó spáis fágtha chun Gaelscoile nua a bhunú. Iarraimid ar an gcoiste iachall nó moladh a chur ar na gcoistí agus na gcomhairlí chontae talamh a chur ar leataobh don Ghaelscolaíocht agus go rachadh an talamh seo ar ais go dtí na comhairlí muna n-úsáideann na Gaelscoileanna iad laistigh de mhéid áirithe blianta, mar shampla, muna bhfuil an éileamh sin ann.

Tá cuid de na rudaí atá ag déanamh scime dúinn faoi láthair luaite agam. D'fhéadfaimid plé le cursaí eile maidir leis na fadbhanna cóiríochta in 121 de na scoileanna. Tá 13 de na scoileanna a bhunaíodh roimh 1990 fós i ndroch-stad cóiríochta. Tá níos mó ná 200 páistí sna scoileanna áirithe. Is obair do lá eile é sin. B'fhéidir go mbeidh deis eile againn na nithe seo a phlé libh. Tá na rudaí is práinní in ár gcúram luaite agam. Tá trí scoileanna le dúnadh agus ní bheidh aon scolaíocht le fáil lasmuigh de bailte móra feasta. Táimid ag lorg tacaíochta chun go mbeidh Gaelscoileanna in Domhnach Bat, Adamstown agus na h-áiteanna nua ar fad atá ag teacht chun cinn.

Chairman

Bhí sé sin an-suimiúil ar fad. De ghnáth, ní bhfaigheann an Cathaoirleach seans ceisteanna a chuir go dtí an deireadh, ach b'fhéidir go gcuirfidh mé an chéad cheist nó dhó. Tá suim agam sna critéir aitheantais do scoileanna nua, go áirithe i gcás gnáth-scoil atá ann cheana agus ina bhfuil na múinteoirí agus na tuismitheoirí ag iarraidh go n-aistreofar an scoil go Gaelscoil. An bhfuil sé riachtanach go mbeidh 100% do na tuismuitheoirí sásta glacadh leis an aistriúchán? Cén sórt critéir atá ann sa chás sin? Cad iad na coinníollacha? Tiocfaimid thar n-ais go dtí Mr. Ó Dúlacháin tar éis dúinn cuid mhaith ceisteanna a thógáil. Nuair a bhí mé i m'oide fadó, bhí a fhios agam díreach an méid a bhí i gceist, ach tá sé leath-dearmadta agam.

Tá suim agam i mír 11(1) den Acht. An bhfuil sé i gceist go dtógfaidh an Roinn míniú an-chúng ón mír? An bhfuil an ceart aici a leithéid a dhéanamh? Tá suim agam freisin in iar-bhunscoileanna. Deir tuismitheoirí agus daoine eile go mbíonn fadhb ann nuair a théann páiste go bunscoil lán-Gaeilge ach ní bhíonn aon iar-bhunscolaíocht ar fáil trí Ghaeilge. Nuair a bhí mé i mo bhall den choiste in Inis fadó, osclaíodh scoil Gaelach laistigh de scoil amháin agus oibríonn sin go han-mhaith ar fad. Déarfainn go mbeadh a lán scoileanna sásta é sin a dhéanamh, ach is léir go bhfuil sé deacair. Tabharfaidh mé deis do na baill eile ceisteanna a chuir anois.

Deputy McGinley

Bá mhaith liom cur leis an fáilte a chuir an Cathaoirleach roimh an eagraíocht Gaeilscoileanna. Ba mhaith liom tréaslú le Gaelscoileanna as ucht chéiliúraidh 30 bliain ó bunaíodh iad agus as ucht na oibre mhóire atá déanta aige ó bunaíodh é. Tá 149 nGaelscoileanna ar fud na tíre ag cur oideachais ar fáil do 30,000 míle dalta taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Mar atá ag eirí leis na Gaelscoileanna, atá i dul i bhfeidhim ar an phobail, mar cheann des na comharthaí dóchais is mó do dhaoine a bhfuil suim acu sa Ghaeilge, dul chun cinn na Ghaeilge agus láidreach na Ghaeilge. Tá go leor comharthaí éadóchais, ach is cinnte gur mór-chomhartha dóchais é sin. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil daoine eile ag iarraidh teacht isteach, ach ba mhaith liom cúpla ceist a chur. Nuair a bhíonn Gaelscoil á bunú i gceanntar áirithe agus tá an gnáthbhunscoil ansin ag an am céanna, caidé an comhoibriú agus an caidreamh atá eatarthu? An gcothaíonn sin deacrachtaí ar bith? An bhfuil aon cheangal nó aon chomhoibriú idir Ghaelscoileanna agus scoileanna Gaeltachta? Tá sé tábhachtach go bhfuil leanúnachas ón bhunscoil go dtí an mheánscoil agus thairis sin. An bhfuil sé deacair sin a chothú? Tá critéir aitheantais níos boige agus níos ísle i dTuaisceart Éireann de réir na cosúlachta agus cuireann sin iontas orm. An mbeadh sé ina chuidiú mhór dá mbeadh an t-aitheantas céanna againn ar dhá thaobh na Teorainne?

Chairman

I encourage members to ask questions in English.

Deputy O’Sullivan

Cuirim leis an bhfáilte atá curtha roimh an ngrúpa agus gabhaim comhghairdeas le Gaelscoileanna faoin bhfás atá déanta. Labharfaidh mé as Béarla anois mar níl mé ro-fhlúirseach sa Ghaeilge. If people do not mind, I will speak in English.

Chairman

Tá an Teachta i bhfad níos fearr ná a cheapann sí.

Deputy O’Sullivan

B'fhéidir. Ní raibh an seans agam dul go dtí Gaelscoil nuair a bhí mé óg.

As I am in the same constituency as Donal Ó hAiniféin, I have much of the information referred to. In the presentation the difficulty of establishing schools was mentioned. I know a great deal about what happened in Gaelscoil Raheen which faced a problem similar to the one outlined. The school faced a dilemma about whether or not it should appoint a principal given that the school had yet to receive planning permission or Department of Education and Science backing. A principal was appointed and, luckily, everything else fell into place at the very last minute.

The delegation's presentation referred to discussions with the Department that had given rise to the feeling that the problem could be overcome. Is it possible to give the committee more information about how things will fall into place? The local authorities have a significant role to play in terms of granting planning permission. A precarious balancing act is involved in getting everything right at the right time. I would welcome any ideas delegates have as to how the committee can help them to make improvements.

Deputy McGinley raised the issue of second level schools. It is clear from the statistics that there is a growing demand for second level education through Irish. It is difficult enough for a child to transfer to a school that teaches through the medium of English. It is logical that the committee should help Gaelscoileanna in this regard also. I am interested in hearing more of the delegation's proposals for State assistance.

Northern Ireland seems to be able to provide the flexibility we cannot. Given our constitutional commitment to Irish as a first language and as equal to English in the business of the State, we must address the obstacles placed before parents seeking all-Irish education for their children, particularly in rural areas and smaller catchment areas. I apologise for not being too fluent in Irish.

Senator Fitzgerald

Cuirim fáilte roimh an ngrúpa agus gabhaim comhghairdeas leis as ucht an mhéid atá déanta aige leis an nGaeilge a leathnú agus a fhorbairt ar fud na tíre agus na haiseanna atá curtha ar fáil aige.

Tá eolas agam faoin obair atá déanta ag an ngrúpa le 30 bliain anuas agus is mian liom cúpla ceist a chur trí mheán an Bhéarla. I am familiar with Gaelscoileanna's work. On my first day in politics, I was involved with Gaelscoil Míde in Dublin 5. I am currently involved with a project in north County Dublin, though in that case it is more as a teacher than as a politician.

One of the two concerns we have today involves the six schools. Are there other ideas besides those outlined in the presentation that Gaelscoileanna would like to put to the committee as to how we can help to bring pressure to bear on the Department of Education and Science to resolve these matters? We are all sympathetic to the idea that the matters should be resolved as quickly as possible. I am sure nobody here doubts that resolution is imperative in the interest of the promotion of Irish given the many obstacles which stand in the way of projects of this kind.

The problems articulated by the Chairman in his opening address are ones with which I am very familiar with. I am aware of the concerns of parents who would like to send their children to Irish schools. The lack of second level facilities gives rise to a deep-seated concern. I am also interested in the policy of ring-fencing designated areas. The delegation will be aware that in recent times policies of this nature have become more popular. Education policies form part of area plans. Recently, I have been involved in a Gaelscoileanna project which is rapidly approaching a successful realisation. It is a very exciting multi-school project. I hope it will be concluded more speedily than was envisaged. The project should form a precedent that should be teased forward.

The Department of Education and Science has informed the committee about public/private partnerships and the out-sourcing of projects. This is a related area. We should be supportive of such projects. Does the delegation have any ideas about that? Sin an méid atá le rá agam. Níl an Ghaeilge agam go flúirseach so bhí orm labhairt as Béarla chun mo cheisteanna a chur.

Deputy Gogarty

Cuirim fáilte roimh an ngrúpa freisin. Níl mórán Gaeilge agam so labharfaidh mé as Béarla. Tá triúr de mo chuid deirfiúracha ag dul go Gaelscoil Choláiste Cois Life ach ní raibh an seans agam sin a dhéanamh. Tuigim an Ghaeilge ach tá sé deacair liom í a labhairt.

Having made that excuse, many of us were taking Irish lessons before the summer recess. Hopefully, they will continue soon and I expect I will be able to speak to the delegation more fluently next year. The delegation does not need to test our level of the language to make its point to the committee. I accept the point that was made about the six schools. Is Gaelscoileanna expecting to receive a response from the Minister or has one been received already about the difference in standards which apply in the North and the Republic? If a reply has not been received, what is the reason for that? I ask that of the delegation and also of the Minister. Does Gaelscoileanna have any evidence from colleagues on the ground that the Northern Ireland guidelines, which call for 12 and 15 pupils for rural and city schools, respectively, are effective? Does Gaelscoileanna have concrete evidence that it has presented to the Minister for Education and Science?

It appears to me that compelling evidence exists. I do not refer to the traditional accusations of snobbery and special treatment of Gaelscoileanna.

These schools are on the increase in suburbia, which is great to see, but the difference between urban and rural should be taken into account. I would love to hear more details of the evidence the group presented in its letter to the Minister. Is it accepted that similar difficulties apply to multi-denominational schools such as 'educate together' and that both groups are essentially singing from the same hymn sheet?

The point was made that money for Gaelscoileanna should be ring-fenced. Under existing rules, new schools have to operate on a temporary basis for a certain period, whereas in the past the church traditionally provided education for the Department which has now to be developed at community level. Without community volunteers, be they gaeilgeoirí or 'educate together' people, it would not happen. A great deal of community input is required, which is a good thing. Does the group just want to see the rules and regulations changed or is there also a need for financial input?

Senator U. Burke

Cuirim fáilte roimh Gaelscoileanna. Tá dhá Gaelscoil in oirthear na Gaillimhe, Scoil Riabach i Loch Ríoch agus Scoil Uí Chearnaigh i mBéal Átha na Sluaighe. Tá siad ag dul ó neart go neart leis na blianta ach níl an Roinn ag tabhairt tacaíochta do na tuismitheoirí, na daltaí agus na múinteoirí le scoil nua a thógáil. Thug an comhairle condae talún do Scoil Uí Chearnaigh le scoil nua a thógáil ach níor thug an Roinn tacaíocht do na daoine seo a dhéanamh. Tá na daltaí i sean-mhonarca faoi láthair agus ní cheart sin. Tá scoil fholamh in aice leis an áit ina mbíodh mná rialta. Cén fáth nach mbaintear úsáid as an scoil fholamh? Níl éinne in ann an clochar a thabhairt don bhunscoil de réir na cosúlachta. Tá an rud céanna ag tarlú i mbaile Loch Ríoch ina bhfuil na daltaí ar scoil i bprefab.

Fadó bhí meánscoileanna den earnáil A i ngach ceantar na tíre ach anois tá siad caillte taobh amuigh den nGaeltacht. Cén fáth nach bhfuil an leanúint ó na Gaelscoileanna go dtí na meánscoileanna den earnáil A? Níl ranganna trí Ghaeilge sna meánscoileanna sna bailte le Gaelscoil. I mBéal Átha na Sluaighe, bhí Coláiste Sheosaimh mar scoil den earnáil A ach i 1975 chaill sí an teideal sin. Cúig bhliain ina dhiaidh sin, bunaíodh an Gaelscoil. Níl comhoibriú anois idir na Gaelscoileanna agus meánscoileanna agus caithfear sin a bhaint amach.

The category A second level schools outside the Gaeltacht areas lost their title and status. Teachers in such schools were entitled to additional pay. In Gaeltacht areas teachers still get an additional deontas. More could be done to support Gaelscoileanna. I do not know if the problem lies with unions or management at second level. It is time for somebody to grasp the nettle in regard to this matter. Pupils are being educated in this manner up to the age of 12 but there does not appear to be much interest in continuing such education at second level.

Many schools have developed at great expense to parents and effort by teachers and boards of management. These schools have come a long way but the work appears to be coming to nought except for in a few cases where children are put into private schools at great cost to their parents. From my experience in Loughrea and Ballinasloe, agus tá sé scríofa sa leabhar seo, pupils in these schools come from all backgrounds. At one time people thought Gaelscoileanna were elitist but this is no longer the case. Scoil Uí Chearnaigh in Loughrea is located in a densely populated area mainly comprising local authority housing. The local people embraced the idea with great determination. The school is a classic example of what can be done if there is goodwill and determination.

The Department of Education and Science put restrictions in place prior to giving a school recognition. The people of Loughrea and Ballinasloe are losing confidence in the Department. The Department's approach appears to be based on the hope that people will go away and stop being a nuisance, that they will send their children to other primary schools with better facilities. This is what will happen if the Department does not respond soon. Nobody could condemn his or her child to such conditions for a whole cycle at national school level. Something must be done to bring it to its senses in terms of supporting the concept of Gaelscoileanna. If it does not support them, let it say so, in which case those concerned can adopt an alternative approach.

Deputy Hoctor

Cuirim fáilte roimh ár n-aíonna ar maidin. Gabhaim comhghairdeas leo as ucht 30 bliain atá á chéiliúradh ag Gaelscoileanna agus an dul chun cinn atá déanta aige thar na blianta.

Is as Tiobraid Árainn thuaidh mé agus tá sár-Ghaelscoil in Aonach an Rúin le foirgneamh nua. Fuair muid an dea-scéal freisin do Ghaelscoil Bhríde i nDurlas Éile go bhfuil páirc ghlas ceannaithe ag an Roinn. Níl sé cothromach don eagraíocht teacht anuas ar Ghaelscoileanna gan breis is 17 ndalta nuair nach mbíonn an fhadh chéanna ó Thuaidh. Ba chóir dúinn brú a chur ar an Aire faoi sin. Caithfidh an Roinn agus an t-aonad pleanála freagracht a ghlacadh nuair a bhíonn costaisí ar thuismitheoirí fosta.

Conas a éiríonn le daltaí laga sna Gaelscoileanna? Bíonn orthu an teanga a fhoghlaim agus a labhairt agus ansin ábhair éagsúla a fhoghlaim. Cad faoi daltaí a théann ó Ghaelscoil go dtí meánscoil ina ndéantar an múinteoireacht tríd an Bhéarla? An bhfuil cúrsa ullmhucháin sna Gaelscoileanna le cuidiú a thabhairt bheith réidh le foclóir nua sna hábhair?

Chairman

Tá a lán ceisteanna ansin agus ag éisteacht le baill an choiste, is mór an ionadh nach n-úsáidtear an Ghaeilge níos minice. B'fhéidir go bhfuil eagla orainn go gceapfadh daoine go bhfuil muid ag maíomh as go bhfuil muid in ann sin a dhéanamh agus daoine eile buartha go gceapfadh daoine nach bhfuil go leor Gaeilge acu. Tá i bhfad níos mó Gaeilge ag baill agus ag daoine ná a cheapfadh éinne agus is mór ná trua nach bhfuilimid sásta á húsaid. Tá grúpa beag a labhrann Gaeilge le chéile go minic ach chuala mé Gaeilge iontach ó dhaoine nár cheap mé go raibh focal acu.

Colm Ó Dúlacháin

Having listened to the contributions as Gaeilge, I note that whoever said there is a very limited number of Irish speakers in the Dáil and Seanad has had a sharp lesson. Perhaps the business of this committee and many others could be conducted as Gaeilge. Tá an-áthas agus iontas orainn. We are all pleasantly surprised. If we learned something today on both sides, it is that there are more Irish-speaking Members than was hitherto thought to be the case. It was very important that we had the opportunity to make our presentation as Gaeilge. It was part of a learning curve for everybody and we might encourage it at more committees, not just the Joint Committee on Education and Science.

Let me consider the questions, which I might deflect to the right and left as I progress. The point about the ordinary two-teacher school that might like to teach through Irish is very valid. I encountered it when I was first employed as the national organiser for Gaelscoileanna in the 1980s. The principal and the other teacher of a small rural school in Moy, in the Chairm

an's constituency, approached me and stated they would like to revert to an all-Irish school. The school was hard to find on the map when I was driving in the region but it was very special in many ways. The Department insisted on sending an inspector to a meeting attended by all the parents. Some of the parents had recently returned from England although, unfortunately, many people were going in the opposite direction at the time. The inspector insisted on a ballot at the meeting and stated that unless 100% of the parents wanted the school to teach totally through the medium of Irish, the motion would not be carried. Therefore, we were a little afraid that some parents might not vote for it, including a Dutch family and a family recently returned from England. However, the parents demanded a secret ballot because they decided a show of hands would be unfair. One hundred per cent of the parents voted for the motion and the school is now teaching through Irish.

Some years later, a school in Tromaire in Laois did something similar. It is about three miles off the main road between Portlaoise and Abbeyleix. Liam Ó Néill and his staff are now teaching totally through the medium of Irish. In this light, it is not only a question of establishing new schools, as the Chairman pointed out. The matter was not pursued actively by the inspectorate and it one which we might visit because it is obvious, given the new conditions that obtain, that starting new schools will be next to impossible in areas such as Tromaire. However, if 100% of parents have to agree to changing a school to a Gealscoil and one parent does not, what is the point in trying? It would be a case of minority rule.

A member of the committee asked for clarity on section 11(1) of the Education Act, which concerns withdrawal of recognition. The Minister can withdraw recognition if he is of the opinion that the criteria are not being adhered to. If a school has not got permanent recognition, which is usually received within three or four years, the Minister can withdraw recognition. This had never happened previously. In addition to the schools that were mentioned, two multi-denominational schools are also threatened with withdrawal, but they have now made progress.

The withdrawals might have been a cost-cutting exercise. If the six schools had been allowed to continue, they would have been buying sites, building, etc., and each would have been allocated €2 million. Withdrawal was one way of saving €12 million. This is a very caustic, cynical observation on my part, but it was the first thing that struck me. Three of the schools are going ahead and I believe the Department realised that what it was doing was wrong. One of the schools in question is one of six two-teacher schools on a peninsula in north Donegal. All the others are static and nobody is closing them because the numbers have not fallen below eight. The two-teacher school in question, which will be a three-teacher school next year and a four-teacher school in five years, is getting the kibosh because it is not bringing in 17 new pupils fast enough. Another school in this category, also in Donegal, is on the other side of the Erne river. If it was in Belleek where the initial meetings were held, it would have 12 pupils and would be up and running.

I was asked if the policy is working in the North. Of course it is. Thirty schools were set up in recent years in the most rural of areas, such the Sperrin mountains, where Irish was spoken until 1957 or 1958. This is because the British Government realises that there is a difference between a rural and urban setting. There has to be. It is true that the Commission on School Accommodation Needs made recommendations in 1998, but since then the Good Friday Agreement and Foras na Gaeilge have had to be considered. Therefore, there is a new playing field. This is why the Foras na Gaeilge proposal submitted to the Minister for Education and Science should receive backing. The numbers exist and it has been proven to work.

We are not against shared facilities on campuses. Given the financial constraints that exist, we have to be practical. However, what happens when developments such as those at Adamstown or Donabate have been completed and parents approach us five years later when there is no site available for a school? There is a screaming demand for a second Gaelscoil anywhere between Balbriggan and Drogheda. Our problem is that there is no empty building available in the area. Areas are not being ring-fenced. Let them be ring-fenced for diversity. If the first call is for a multi-denominational school as Béarla, a multi-denominational school as Gaeilge or a Catholic school as Gaeilge, so be it but at least have a land bank where one can put a portacabin up for a number of years.

On the point raised by Deputy O'Sullivan on what went wrong with the new proposals last year that left the Deputy and others literally tearing their hair out in mid-August in Raheen in Limerick. That school, and six multi-denominational schools, two Catholic schools and two Gaelscoileanna, had recognition in mid-May. At the end of July, the Department took in the whole process back again for evaluation and it was decided not to activate the recognition. At that stage a principal teacher had been appointed in the Deputy's area. I had to travel to Limerick to tell her that she did not have a job, that her old job had been advertised and there were interviews for her old job, and I could not guarantee her a school.

The Department wrote to me specifically stating that if the fire certificate is received after 1 September, for example, even if it is received on 2 September, the recognition lapses and a new submission has to be made for the next year. Those parents would not have hung on for another year; they would have walked. They would have walked, however, with two architects' reports costing €6,000 to be paid for, plus solicitors' fees. Certificates of tax compliance are hard enough to get from a landlord but it is ridiculous when one is sent back a second time to get another one to cover a new year.

These are people who were never involved in the Irish language process previously, who just thought that they were doing right for their kids in looking for an education through Irish and suddenly they are told, almost as a guilty party, to provide proof of these various matters and to pay for it. The Department is looking for the information but the parents must pay for it. There was a time when the Department would have sent down an official from the Office of Public Works to look at a building and state that it was or was not appropriate, but now we must pay for all that. This is my point: can the Department not pick up the cost, even of the professional fees? We will work at getting the numbers, but those professional fees should be carried by the State because it is the State that is incurring them.

A couple of points were raised on the cross-over from primary and post-primary and also teaching children with learning difficulties. Donal Ó hAiniféin is the principal of a school with more than 200 pupils in Limerick city. With your permission, a Chathaoirligh, b'fhéidir go bhfreagróidh Donal an cheist sin.

Donal Ó hAiniféin

Ba mhaith liom a rá, mar phríomhoide Gaelscoile, oideachasóir agus fear Gaeltachta go bhfuil Gaeilge aoibhinn, álainn, blasta sa tseomra seo agus gur iontach an rud é éisteacht libh go léir. Deirtear liom go bhfuil blas ar an mbeagán agus tréaslaím leis an choiste. Ní bhíonn an oiread sin Gaeilge ag tuismitheoirí a roghnaíonn Gaelscolaíocht dá bpáiste. De na tuismitheoirí a roghnaíonn Gaelscolaíocht dá bpáistí, ní bheadh 95% acu in ann an rud atá a rá agam anois a thuiscint nó iad féin a chur in iúl as Gaeilge. Dúirt a lán acu nach raibh an deis acu féin freastal ar Ghaeilge ach tá an deis ag an Rialtas agus ag an gcoiste an deis sin a thabhairt do dhaltaí uilig na tíre, bídís i gceantracha tuaithe nó ceantracha uirbeacha, ag an mbunleibhéal agus an dara leibhéal.

Tá muid ag caint ar rogha, we are talking about giving parents a choice. Níl muidne sa ghluaiseacht seo ag iarraidh an Gaelscolaíocht a bhrú ar dhuine ar bith. Sin difríocht an-mhór ón gcóras a bhí sna 1940í agus 1950í sna scoileanna gur déanadh trácht dóibh. Is rogha é do thuismitheoirí más mian leo an rogha sin a ghlacadh dá bpáistí.

Sula bhfreagróidh mé na pointí ón dTeachta Hoctor, tiocfaidh mé thar n-ais go dtí an pointe a rinne an Cathaoirleach maidir le Gaelcholáiste laistigh de bheatharscoil in Inis. Tá cónaí orm féin in Inis agus taistlím isteach go Luimneach le haghaidh an lae, is Ciarraíoch mé ar deoraíocht sa dhá chondae sin. Brathann an t-aonad go hiomlán ar dhea-thoil na mbeatharscoile. Brathann sé ar an goodwill atá ag an mbeatharscoil, ar an dea-thoil atá ann ón chief executive officer atá sa gcoiste gairmoideachas go háitiúil. Bíonn sin in áiteanna agus ní bhíonn sé in áiteanna eile agus cruthaíonn sin deacrachtaí don aonad. Tá an Coimisiún um Cóiríocht Scoileanna ag féachaint ar na haonaid agus beimid ag lorg gach tacaíochta agus structúirí breise do na haonaid sin chun a chinntiú go n-éiríonn leo dul chun cinn a dhéanamh.

The units do not have the same supports as an independent school. We are trying to put in place, through the commission, some support for the units. Where it is not feasible - we are also practical - to have an independent secondary school in every second parish, tuigimid é sin but we need to put supports in place to ensure that the units will thrive and can be 100% loyal to their ethos lán-Gaelach, agus tá sin fíor-thábhachtach.

Maidir le haistriú scoile, baineann sé le foireann na scoile. For an English school to become a Gaelscoil, the teachers must be 100% behind it. The board of management and the patron must also be 100% behind it. Then one goes to the parents. Then if the parents are not 100% behind it, titeann sé. Ba mhaith liom teacht ar ais chuige sin agus é sin a iniúchadh.

Labhair an Teachta McGinley ansin ar an gceangal Gaeltachta. Tá an ceangal sin i mbeagnach gach Gaelscoil sa tír. Tugann gach Gaelscoil sa tír turas, bíodh sé seachtain nó deireadh seachtaine, chuid an nGaeltacht. Tá na Gaeltachtaí agus na Gaelscoileanna ag brath ar a chéile. Ag an gcomhdháil oideachais i mbliana don chéad uair riamh bhí múinteoirí Gaeltachta ó gach uile Gaeltacht sa tír ag freastal le comhdháil oideachais Ghaelscoileanna. I was nominated myself as uachtarán of Gaelscoileanna by Scoil na mBráithre Críostaí sa Daingean, my alma mater. Tá na meánscoileanna Gaeltachta mar bhaill den eagraíocht seo againne mar nach bhfuil a n-eagraíocht neamhspleách féin acu.

Where a Gaelscoil is established, it is not our intention to steal or take pupils from other schools. We are providing an opportunity for parents to send their children to a Gaelscoil. In fact, Gaelscoileanna provide the perfect model to ensure that ghettos are not created in any town or city. My school in Limerick would be a perfect example, where there are children from every background and more than 22 parishes in the city. These are not parish schools and therefore our entry criteria are not strictly geographically based. Our entry criteria welcome everybody and anybody who wishes to have their children educated through the medium of Irish, irrespective of their linguistic, religious, social or other backgrounds. Therefore, Gaelscoileanna have a positive role to play to ensure that communities in towns, cities and rural areas around the country are mixing. This ensures that the forming of ghettos, which has happened in other towns, is turned around and equal opportunity is given to all. Táimid ag lorg cothrom na Féinne do gach tuismitheoir.

Maidir leis na critéir aitheantis, it is obvious, fiú don dall féin, that parents from working class areas do not have the financial wherewithal to get their hands on €30,000 to make an application and then to be waiting at the end of a phone on 30 August to see an bhfuil an scoil ag oscailt an lá ina dhiaidh sin. Tá taithí ag cuid den gcoiste ag cabhrú le scoileanna agus tréaslaím dóibh agus tá muid fíor-bhuíochach don gcabhar sin a thugann Teachtaí.

Tá ceist níos leithne ann chomh maith - comhoibriú leis na Gaeltachtaí leanúchas ón mbunleibhéal go dtí an dara leibhéal. Tá Colm Ó Dulacháin mar phríomhfheidhmeannach nua, mise mar uachtarán nua na heagraíochta agus an eagraíocht iomlán tar éis díriú ar seo le roinnt blianta anuas. This is one of our main objectives, to increase the transfer rate from primary to secondary. There is no research to suggest that children who transfer to English secondary schools have any problems whatsoever. Bilingualism all over the world has been proven in international research to show that there are only advantages pertaining to children who are educated in a bilingual setting.

Ba mhaith liom é sin a cheangailt isteach leis an dalta lag. Beidh an dalta sin lag in aon suíomh oideachais. The child with learning difficulties will have learning difficulties in any educational setting. What the bilingual Gaelscoil setting gives the child, in terms of self-esteem and self-confidence and in terms of the ethos of the school and the caring approach taken in the school, is unique to Gaelscoileanna and we cater for many parents with children who have learning difficulties such as ADD-ADHD and Asperger's. At my school there is a child with retinitis pigmentosa atá ag dul daill agus ag cailliúint radharc na súil. Is féidir dealáil leis na páistí sin i saoimh Gaelscoile and it is a myth to suggest that bilingualism is an added burden for a child who is weak. Surely one is certainly not suggesting that only bright children be allowed the opportunity to go to Gaelscoileanna? Given the correct resources——

Deputy Hoctor

Ní raibh mé ach ag chur na ceiste conas a eiríonn leo. An mbíonn sé níos deacra dóibh? Tá an freagra againn anois. I was not suggesting otherwise.

Donal Ó hAiniféin

Tá a fhíos agam é sin. Tá mé cinnte de sin. We, as an organisation, have been fighting for the correct resources to be put in place for these children. Unfortunately nuair a ardaítear an cheist, tá sé ceart a rá that often the correct resources are not there. The time required for children with learning difficulties, for resource teaching for extra help in the teaching of reading through Irish, are not available and are not recognised in any departmental circular. Unfortunately, under existing circulars learning support and resource time can only be given through the medium of English, fiú amháin don pháiste sa nGaelscoil. Ba mhaith linn díriú ar sin. Is pointe an-tábhachtach é agus tá tacaíocht breise ag teastáil uainn ansin.

Maidir leis na scoileanna agus na háiteanna atá ag forbairt, tá sé rí-tábhachtach, ag an mbun leibhéal agus ag an dara leibhéal, that we do ring-fence. Gaelscoileanna is not in the business of establishing schools that are not viable. Our track record proves this. All of the schools that we have established have succeeded. We help parents establish schools. It comes from the ground up. Sin é an fáth go n-éiríonn le Loch Ríoch agus Béal Átha na Sluaighe. Tá aithne mhaith agam ar Ruairí O hAnluain, an príomhoide iontach i mBéal Atha na Sluaighe, agus tá fadhbanna ollmhóra cóiríochta ag an scoil sin. Even against all the odds, tá an scoil ag fás agus ag forbairt mar go bhfuil a fhios ag tuismitheoirí go bhfuil caighdeán ard oideachais ar fáil sna scoileanna sin.

Beidh ceapachán á dheanamh ag eagraíocht go luath a thagair Colm Ó Dúlacháin dó, beidh oifigeach forbartha ar siúl so that our strategic planning with the Department of Education and Science would ensure that we would be in a position to tell parents of children in rang a haon and rang a dó that in 2007 or 2008 beidh iar-bhunscoil lán-Gaelach neamhspleách ar an mbaile nó sa chathair seo nó, mura mbeidh, go mbeidh aonad lán-Ghaelach ar an mbaile leis na tacaíochtaí cuíthe. It is not fair to tell children, at 12 years of age, go bhfuil go leor faighte acu and this is what the State is saying by the non-provision of secondary education through the medium of Irish. This is what parents are being told. As parents, we all know how quickly children grow up. There is a leap of faith required for parents sending their children to a bunscoil lán-Ghaelach atá tosnaithe istigh i suíomhanna atá uafásach. My own school was built in 1765 as a courthouse and the court service left it in 1845. The Christian Brothers abandoned it in 1970 but it is still good enough for the Gaelscoil i súile an Rialtais seo in the 21st century. Something somewhere is imithe amú.

Is doigh liom go bhfuil an taithí i Gaelscoileanna le blianta anuas which shows that all of the schools we helped establish have succeeded. The average enrolment of a Gaelscoil is about 180 and our aim is to have schools that will grow to that level, but the first two, three or four years are vital. There are circumstances that come into play for the first two or three years. We can have difficulties with a transport system not being available and we can have serious difficulties with accommodation. Of course we have difficulties with the leap of faith needed by parents until they see that it is working and until the school gets positive feedback from parents.

At the second level, it is very difficult to ask parents to make that leap of faith when one is talking about the points race for third level education. It is unfair to request parents to send their child to a prefab in the back yard of a huge secondary school that is the aonad lán-Ghaelach option for them. That is not fair. We are looking for independent buildings of a standard as high as that of our education.

Colm Ó Dúlacháin

Senator Ulick Burke asked a couple of questions. The problems encountered in Ballinasloe are quite unique. On a busy thoroughfare, the school is in five different locations, one of which is in a bicycle shop. There is a pillar in the middle of the room in the bicycle shop and the children have to look around it to see the teacher.

They are downstairs in the dressing rooms in the town hall. They are upstairs in a solicitor's office. They are down a courtyard. They are all over the place. As the Senator stated, meanwhile there has been an empty convent building across the road, the building of which was probably funded by the State. There were 180 pupils enrolled in the school last year. I would find it very hard to send my child to a school like that but people have made that leap of faith.

In setting up the Gaelscoil in Renmore in 1993 we were lucky to find an empty sanatorium for a year or two. Twenty years later they are still in the same sanatorium. We found the upstairs of a supermarket in Ballincollig in Cork for Gabriel Ó Cathasaigh's school. Twenty years later they are still in the supermarket building, upstairs and downstairs. There are no supermarket customers and they have the run of that supermarket.

Our schools are in funeral homes and in all sorts of places. We have had to do that. It was not only the initial parents who went through that, but generations. There are parents sending their children to that school in the supermarket who themselves attended school at that supermarket. It is a significant crisis to which we could return today because there are hundreds of such examples.

To return to the three schools in trouble facing closure, one of them opened only in September 2002. It got recognition at the end of July. We had 19 children lined up for it the previous February. When no news came from the Department in March, April or May, when the local schools were saying, "It is make or break time, are you buying a uniform and coming to our school?" the numbers went straight down. It was about 20 August when the principal was appointed and she started on 1 September with 13 pupils in this small town. The other two schools nearby took in nine pupils and ten pupils. We had more pupils than them. Within four and a half months of the school opening, the Department was telling them that it was going to close the school because they were not going to get to the magical figure of 51 pupils in three years, although they were only open four months. This is the sort of problem we have been facing. This is why we need this committee's help. The Department should give a bit of slack to these schools at the start because they all will work.

Chairman

Tá vótáil sa Dáil agus táimid faoi bhrú.

Colm Ó Dúlacháin

Ba mhaith linn buíochas ó chroí a ghabháil leis an gcoiste. Tá ár n-uimhreacha ríomhpost and uimhreacha gutháin ag an gcoiste. If anybody has any questions and would like to meet us at any time, we would be free to do so. Gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste as ucht na deise a thabhairt dúinn ár n-aighneacht a dhéanamh i nGaeilge agus éisteacht an-mhaith, an-mhacánta agus feireáilte a thabhairt dúinn ar maidin.

Chairman

Ba mhaith liom mo buíochas féin agus buíochas an choiste a ghabháil le Gaelscoileanna as an méid a léirigh siad agus as na ceisteanna a fhreagairt.

Sitting suspended at 10.49 a.m. and resumed at 11.40 a.m.