JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Sep 2004

On-line Training Courses for Primary Teachers: Presentations.

Vice-Chairman

Before welcoming our guests, I think I can speak for everyone on the committee in congratulating in public — we have already done so in private — our Chairperson, Deputy Tony Killeen, who has been appointed as a Minister of State. He has been an excellent Chairperson of this committee and while we are all sorry to lose him, we are also very pleased about his elevation. On behalf of the committee, I also congratulate Deputy Mary Hanafin on her elevation to the post of Minister for Education and Science. The committee looks forward to working with her.

We now proceed to the main business of the meeting, a discussion with representatives of HETAC and Hibernia College on on-line training courses for primary teachers. Members will be aware that the committee has discussed this topic on two previous occasions: on 15 July with Choice, the INTO, IFUT, USI and APT, and on 29 July with the Department.

On behalf of the members of the committee, I welcome first from HETAC Mr. Séamus Puirséil, chief executive; Ms Orlaith McCaul, head of quality assurance; Mr. Joe Cox, head of programme validation, and Mr. Tadhg Ó hÉalaithe, secretary to the council. The representatives of Hibernia College are Professor Thomas Mitchell, academic chairman; Dr. Seán Rowland, executive chairman; Ms Sara McDonnell, director of operations; Dr. Toni McManus, director, higher diploma in primary teaching, and Dr. Nicholas Breakwell, chief knowledge officer. They are all very welcome. I draw their attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or persons outside the Houses, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite Mr. Puirséil to make the presentation on behalf of HETAC.

Mr. Séamus Puirséil

Thank you very much, a Chathaoirligh. We are very pleased to be here. When we were here on other business last October, we dealt with a number of questions on this matter. The Higher Education Training Awards Council is the national awarding and accreditation body for third level educational institutions outside the university sector and Dublin Institute of Technology. HETAC awards qualifications at all levels of higher educational training up to doctoral level. It seeks to develop, promote and maintain programmes of higher educational training leading to national awards at a standard and quality that meet the needs and expectations of Irish society and the international community. Its functions are: to establish policies and criteria for the making of higher educational training awards and the validation of programmes of higher educational training; to determine standards of knowledge, skill and competence to be acquired by learners; to make or delegate authority to make or recognise higher educational training awards; to monitor and evaluate the quality of programmes of educational training; to ensure providers under its remit establish procedures for the assessment of learners that are fair and consistent and adequate for the purpose of demonstrating compliance with standards determined by the council; and to facilitate lifelong learning by playing a full role in the development and management of the national framework for qualifications launched in October 2003.

The Qualifications, Education and Training Act 1999 makes provision for a five year transition period to a new awards and qualifications system. As the relevant sections of the Act were commenced on 11 June 2001, the transition period extends to 10 June 2006. The Oireachtas provided that during the transition period the council would make or recognise higher education and training awards where it was satisfied that the National Council for Educational Awards would have validated programmes if the Act had been passed. This is provided for in section 21(4). The Act provides that a provider of a programme of education and training may apply for validation for that programme. This is not restricted to any particular proviso and is provided for in section 25. The Act also provides for an appeals process where the council refuses to validate a programme or withdraws validation. In such cases an appeal may be made to the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland.

Section 28 of the Act provides that providers whose programmes have been validated shall establish procedures for quality assurance for the purpose of further improving the quality of education and training provided and organised or procured by that provider and shall agree these with the council. These procedures shall include: evaluation at regular intervals and as directed by the council of the programme of education and training concerned, including evaluation by persons competent to make national and international comparisons; evaluation by learners on the programme; and evaluation of services related to the programme.

The Act provides for a review of the effectiveness of the quality assurance procedures and the publication of the report on this review. Hibernia College made a submission to the council in early June last year for validation of a programme — a graduate diploma in primary teacher education. The submission contained the rationale for development of the programme; programme aims, objectives and outcomes; proposed programme structure; facilities and services related to the programme; programme delivery details; transfer and progression arrangements; lecturing expertise available for the programme; and learner protection details. In addition, it included a list of current programmes offered by the provider; proposed programme schedule; course delivery schedule; library holdings — actual; library holdings — remote access; curriculum vitae of staff available to the programme; course overview; and statutory declaration relating to the protection of learners. These are standard requirements in any submission.

A panel was appointed and considered the submission on 25 June 2003. It conducted a site visit to Hibernia College on Thursday, 26 June 2003. It was informed of the consultation process which had taken place and, in particular, of consultations with the Department of Education and Science on the course structure and content. Details were also provided of the involvement of the primary curriculum support programme in the development and delivery of the proposed programme which was deemed by Hibernia as essential to its delivery. The panel noted this involvement. It welcomed this aspect of the submission, in particular.

The panel paid particular attention to the entry requirements; structure, aims and objectives; course content and syllabi; physical resources and assessment methods for the programme. It also considered the course schedule. Its report went before the council's programme accreditation committee on Tuesday, 1 July 2003, which committee is delegated by the council to validate programmes. It decided that the programme should be validated subject to the general conditions for validation by the council.

These general conditions are that the provider will co-operate with and assist the council and the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, where appropriate, in the performance of their functions; the provider will establish procedures for the assessment of learners which are fair and consistent; the provider will ensure procedures for access, transfer and progression determined by the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland are implemented; the provider, if it has not already done so, shall establish and agree with the council at an early date procedures to ensure the maintenance of the quality of the programme that is the subject of the certificate; no significant change will be made in the validated programme without the prior approval of the council; the provider will notify the council of staff changes as they occur and should submit curriculum vitae in respect of each newly appointed member of staff teaching on a validated programme; the entry requirements for validated programmes will be those approved by the council from time to time; the provider will submit to the council, within six months of the date of issue of validation, a progress report on its compliance with the conditions for validation; and the provider will ensure appropriate human and physical resources are available for the provision of an approved course.

On Thursday, 3 July 2003, an order of the council was signed by me stating the council was satisfied that the programme was one to which section 21(4) referred and that the council would make or recognise the award subject to its conditions. The order was effective up to a date to be set by the council, such date being not later than 10 June 2006, which date was standard in such certificates because it marked the end of the transition period.

The order was sent to Hibernia College and a copy sent, in line with normal courtesies, to the Department of Education and Science in July 2003. The council received and noted the report of the programme accreditation committee at its meeting in September 2003. The panel had requested an update on certain aspects of the programme to which Hibernia College responded with an updated submission which the council received on 17 October 2003. This was seen by the panel which agreed that it conformed with what had been required.

I referred to the requirement that quality assurance procedures should be agreed with the council and subsequently reviewed. This is a new procedure under the Act and relates to programmes validated under section 25. The provision is in operation for some of the programmes validated under the earlier section of the Act.

In August 2003 the council wrote to all providers inviting them to submit their quality assurance procedures for agreement and requesting an indication of their submission date. On 31 October 2003 HETAC received a quality assurance submission from Hibernia which was considered by a panel consisting of the assistant registrar, National University of Ireland; the senior adviser of the National Agency for Higher Education, Sweden, and the chief executive of the federal accreditation body in Germany. The panel recommended resubmission which was received on 14 April 2004. A panel consisting of the registrar of an institute of technology and senior quality assurance officers of Liverpool Hope University and University College, Worcester recommended a number of amendments and additions to the document. On 14 July this year a resubmission with the supplementary information based on the April panel's recommendations was received. This was considered by a panel consisting of the director of an institute of technology and senior quality assurance officers of Netherlands — Vlaamse Accreditatie Organisatie NL and the quality assurance agency of the United Kingdom. The panel recommended that the council should agree quality assurance procedures with Hibernia College. This recommendation was agreed to by the council at its meeting on Monday last. At its next meeting it will consider a schedule for the review of the effectiveness of quality assurance procedures for all providers which will obviously include Hibernia College.

Assessment procedures and standards on all programmes are subject to external examination. In general, extern examiners are appointed by the providing institution and the reports of externs are provided for the council. Externs are required to certify that they received the appropriate course documentation and approved course schedules; that they approved the examination papers and that they received them in sufficient time; that they received marking schemes and worked solutions; and that the assessment covers the course as approved. They are required to moderate the assessment material, to comment on whether the programme was efficiently run and seriously taught and whether there was an atmosphere of challenge and intellectual rigour. Examiners are expected to attend the examination board meeting and give their opinion on the standards in the college compared with those in other colleges of which they have experience. They are invited to suggest aspects of the programme worthy of commendations and offer in an open-ended way any other comments and suggestions.

On Monday last the council decided that, in the case of institutions offering programmes for the first time, extern examiners would be appointed by HETAC rather than the college, although there would be consultation with the college. This stipulation will refer, inter alia, to Hibernia College and a number of other providers. We have opened discussions with Hibernia on the matter and I anticipate that we will appoint extern examiners for its programme within the next week or two. We will request that the extern examiners commence their work immediately and that their reports be available to the council by the end of the academic year.

There are a number of other aspects of the council's work relevant to this programme, including the setting of standards for all disciplines. There remains one aspect which is particularly relevant. In October last year the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland launched the national framework of qualifications. Between February and June this year the council, with its providers, undertook a review of all programmes — approximately 1,000 in all — with a view to fitting them into the new framework. The graduate diploma in primary education was one of these. The programme objectives were rewritten in terms of learning outcomes and discussed with the council's professional staff while the process was subject to external peer review — in other words, an external peer panel. New certificates of approval were issued following the successful completion of this operation for all programmes and the award and programme titles were rewritten to meet the requirements of the national framework of qualifications. This relates to the programme in question as well as to all others.

I have endeavoured to give the committee an overview of the process followed by the council in fulfilling its functions and will be happy to answer any questions the committee may wish to put.

Dr. Seán Rowland

The representatives of Hibernia College are delighted to have the opportunity to appear before the committee. I apologise for not being able to be here on the last occasion as both Dr. Mitchell and I had appointments outside the country. In the light of all that has been said about Hibernia College, particularly at some of the previous hearings, we are very happy to be here to answer members' questions and tell them about the development of the college, the technologies it uses and, in particular, its teacher programme. I ask Professor Mitchell to make a brief presentation.

Professor Thomas Mitchell

I am glad to be here this morning to have the opportunity to give as much information as I can to the committee about any matter it may wish to raise. By way of background, I wish to comment about Hibernia and its mission. I also wish to comment about e-learning and its importance in terms of the future of Ireland's higher education services. I will then comment on the teachers' programme and briefly describe what is at issue.

Hibernia College was established almost four years ago to bring the benefits of e-learning to Ireland. Its mission is to provide wider access to high quality third level education for the many hundreds who do not have the time, money or flexibility to attend so-called "bricks and mortar" educational institutions. E-learning is the most revolutionary and transforming development in education since the invention of the printing press. It has the capacity to widen access to a higher level of education for the great majority of the population. It makes a wide world of knowledge available in peoples' homes and offices in their own time and at an affordable cost. Its technology is now so far advanced that it has become a highly interactive medium that no longer leaves the student feeling isolated. Regular voice contact with other students and tutors is now possible through this medium, in addition to web browsing and e-mail.

E-learning has been the great missing dimension in Irish educational services. Despite its great contribution to computer science, Ireland has failed to exploit the benefits of information technology in education, notwithstanding its urgent need to extend educational opportunity. Recent OECD reports have shown that Ireland, despite its declared goal of reaching the top quartile of OECD countries in terms of educational attainment, still languishes in the bottom quartile. It has a seriously under-educated workforce in comparison with other countries, with upwards of 750,000 people with no third level qualification whatever. It also lacks a national strategy for the growing area of postgraduate professional education.

These problems of adult and continuing education which are extremely serious in a knowledge-driven economy such as Ireland's will not be remedied without the aid of e-learning. People cannot withdraw from work to attend on-site fixed schedule courses. They must have flexible access near their homes or places of work. The primary goal of Hibernia is to provide high quality programmes to meet this need.

Hibernia brings a range of exceptional resources and expertise to this task. It has developed, in conjunction with leading world experts such as Professor John Williams at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, an advanced technology platform that exploits all the latest technology advances. It has a range of prestigious international partners and highly qualified management and academic teams. It has developed a variety of courses centred on its core areas of interest, adult education and postgraduate professional education. These include: public administration; criminal justice; hospitality management; legal studies; and a number of executive programmes. Other courses are in development. The college is also in the process of developing a bachelor's degree in the history and culture of Ireland and a master's degree in pharmaceutical medicine. Currently, however, its best known course is the higher diploma in primary education, a postgraduate professional course that fits well into Hibernia's central mission.

The course arose from the difficult situation identified by the INTO in 2002 when it was found that over 40,000 pupils were being taught by unqualified teachers. At that time it was estimated that an additional 1,600 teachers would be required in the short term. The situation worsened in 2003. One of the solutions suggested by the INTO was the establishment of a conversion course on a modular basis with IT involvement. The colleges of education were offering a graduate diploma but numbers were limited and courses were held on campus, with a fixed scheduled programme that obliged students to leave their jobs and, in many cases, their homes to pursue the qualification. With these restrictions, many well qualified candidates currently teaching in schools were unable to pursue the postgraduate diploma and a great deal of talent was being lost to the education system.

It is important for the committee to know that the candidates taking the higher diploma in primary education offered by Hibernia are among the highest academic achievers available to the teaching profession. All of them have primary degrees and all have obtained excellent results in their degree examinations in order to be accepted into the course. These are intelligent, motivated and dedicated people of the highest personal commitment and calibre.

The higher diploma for primary teachers offers eligible candidates the opportunity to benefit from access to a postgraduate course, while giving them the flexibility to remain at work and incur far lower costs. The addition of these cohorts of highly talented, highly educated teachers from diverse academic backgrounds to the body of primary teachers will greatly enhance the range of skills and talent in the profession and will raise, not lower, quality.

In previous presentations to the committee, serious questions were raised about the suitability of e-learning for teacher training. There has also been some unfair and unjustified comment directed at the quality of the course offered by Hibernia and the process for accreditation. I am more than happy to deal with these issues.

The higher diploma has been vetted through rigorous assessment and accredited by the Higher Education and Training Awards Council, which process has just been described to members in detail. The course was also subject to a thorough assessment by the inspectorate of the Department of Education and Science. These authorities will continue to have open and free access to monitor the conduct and development of the course and the high standards that it will achieve. In addition to its HETAC accreditation, Hibernia also has a detailed quality control system which was recently subjected to rigorous and independent scrutiny by a key international panel and won approval. Hibernia's examination system and the performances of its students are monitored on an ongoing basis by external examiners to provide for a continuous check on standards. The technology used to deliver the programme is state-of-the-art and, as mentioned previously, has been designed with the assistance of leading experts such as Professor John Williams of MIT.

Hibernia College's academic staff are highly qualified and, in many cases, leading experts in their field. One of the key benefits of e-learning is that Hibernia can draw its course directors and authors from a worldwide pool. Consequently, it has a range of choice that traditional colleges with a fixed staff complement cannot emulate. Hibernia has management and academic teams led by people with impeccable credentials. The higher diploma in education course has been in operation for one year and the feedback from students, schools and principals has been tremendously positive.

With regard to the on-line medium and teacher training, it must be emphasised that the Hibernia course is a blended format, with 45% delivered on-line and 55% delivered on-site. What is delivered on-line is the academic or theoretical content, as is the case in many professional degrees relating to areas such as medicine and law, but all of the practical elements of the course are delivered in a face-to-face format. There are regular on-site classes at education centres throughout the country, a week-long on-site physical education programme, a three week intensive programme in the Gaeltacht, and 14 weeks of teaching practice in the classroom which is supervised and inspected by supervisors and Department of Education and Science inspectors. I emphasise that the course overall, while not requiring students to give up their jobs, in terms of the breadth of its curriculum, the workload of the students, the outcomes demanded, and the overall standards, fully matches the equivalent programme in the colleges of education. It provides the same academic course work, teaching practice and in-school probationary inspections and examinations provided in all the other teacher training colleges.

The course also covers educational technology, teaching methodologies, the psychology, sociology, philosophy and history of education, physical education, and arts education, along with professional modules dealing with the law in education, and parent-teacher relationships. It does not provide any less content, quality or level of scrutiny, examination or inspection than the courses in the other colleges. Students who fail to meet the required and necessary high standards, through their course work, practical work, inspections and ultimately final examinations, will not graduate.

The Hibernia course has given talented and dedicated students from even the remotest parts of the country the opportunity to achieve a teaching qualification that would otherwise be impossible for them. Hibernia has students from every county on this course and their dedication, commitment and enthusiasm have been an inspiration to all of us who work in the college. Perhaps the best testament to the course comes from one of our students from Ennis, County Clare, who wrote to the Irish Examiner in January 2004 as follows:

I am a parent who is 100% in favour of maintaining Ireland's high education standards. I have met the requirements, passed the interview and have accepted the offer of a place in this course. More importantly I am prepared to commit my time, effort and money to gain this qualification. This Diploma will enable me to apply for a permanent position as a primary teacher. Like many others, including those teaching without a qualification, I welcome this Diploma and I look forward to completing it.

Committee members have raised many questions with both the Department and other groups which made submissions before it. As far as those questions relate to Hibernia, I would be more than delighted to deal with queries that members of the committee may have in relation to the course or on-line learning in general.

Vice-Chairman

There will be a division in the Dáil in 20 minutes but we should have enough time for members to put their questions before suspending. We will take the replies when the meeting resumes.

Deputy Stanton

I welcome the delegations from HETAC and Hibernia. When an innovation such as on-line teacher training is introduced, it is interesting, challenging, controversial and raises questions. This is one forum where such questions can be addressed. I thank both delegations for their comprehensive presentations. It is a pity we were not able to meet their critics in order that everybody would be around the table. As Professor Mitchell has stated, questions were raised and the college has been the subject of innuendo. However, our job is put questions to the delegations in order that they can respond.

Professor Mitchell stated 45% of the course is presented on-line and 55% is presented on-site. How is the course broken up to arrive at those percentages? It is easy to pluck percentages out of the air. Will he clarify the role of inspectors and tutors from the Department of Education and Science? It has been suggested that Hibernia relies a great deal on them. To what extent is that the case?

It has been stated teacher training is as much, if not more, about formation than information. As a former teacher, I am aware teachers are formed and that they need a great deal more than information. On- and off-campus interaction between students is important but there is no such interaction in Hibernia. Students in teacher training colleges work and live together, a vital component of teacher training, particularly where they deal with children.

I refer to an issue raised by Deputy Hoctor at a previous committee meeting. The trainers in colleges of education get to know the students well on a personal basis, so much so that they identify traits which may rule students out as teachers. There may be personality issues and so on, although I acknowledge this issue is subjective and personal. Some people should not become teachers because of their personalities. Has this been factored in by Hibernia? How does it identify those who should not be put in charge of children? This, in turn, raises the issue of screening of people in charge of children. What procedures has Hibernia in place in this regard?

Is Professor Mitchell concerned about statements regarding the possible uncontrolled surplus of teachers? The INTO has concerns. Hibernia's numbers have increased dramatically above what it initially proposed. Consequently, the number of places in traditional colleges has been capped but Hibernia's has not. It has been suggested there is a danger of an oversupply of teachers in the future. Has an analysis been carried out by HETAC or Hibernia? There was an oversupply of teachers in the 1980s which led to unemployment. When that happens, people opt out of teaching as a career and the best individuals are lost. A balance needs to be struck. Could a cap be put on Hibernia's numbers? Must it agree to a cap or can it enrol as many students as it wishes?

I refer to student teachers with special needs. The Disability Bill 2004 was published recently. How does Hibernia propose to train teachers on-line who may have a visual impairment or other physical disability? Has this issue been examined? If so, what are Hibernia's proposals in this regard? Is the technology used disability proofed? How do physical education, art, music and drama training compare with traditional training? Perhaps it is better but I do not know.

I understand a submission was made to the council in early June and the panel was appointed on Wednesday, 25 June. On the following day, Thursday, the panel visited Hibernia College and on the following Tuesday the committee decided to validate the programmes. Is that type of timescale usual? Have other programmes been validated by HETAC at the same speed? It seems to me quite quick, but perhaps it is normal. I ask the question because it has been said that it appeared to happen quite quickly. Will HETAC inform us of what was included in the quality assurance submission received from Hibernia College on 31 October? What was HETAC looking for in that?

I have a range of questions and this one is for Hibernia College. In recent newspaper reports there was a suggestion that the college was under financial pressure and at risk of going bust and that this contract saved its bacon. The college has seen the reports. Will it comment on them and tell us the exact situation? It would be a pity for students if the college went bust halfway through their course. Apart from the fees paid by the students, what kind of bond or guarantee can Hibernia College give that it will remain in business?

An interesting question arose at one of our previous meetings. Has Hibernia College any provisions for students from a disadvantaged background who wish to pursue a teaching career but do not have the money to pay the college's fees of €5,500 per annum? Has it provided for any such student to date? I may wish to raise some further questions on this issue later.

I understand the Kelleghan report did not recommend e-learning for teacher training. What is Hibernia College's view on that? Did it take that report into account? It has been said that of the nine persons listed as members of the academic committee of the college, at least one third later denied involvement. Can the college explain that? My esteemed friend, Dr. Maurice Manning, was on that list and he has said he was not involved. Why or how did that happen? If it is the case that people were misrepresented and listed as being involved, this straight away hits at the credibility of the college organisation.

Another issue that relates to HETAC is that some of the programmes were given accreditation without any information on course content in the areas listed. Is that the case, is it normal and should that happen? It seems quite strange. IFUT said, last July, that Hibernia College was still attempting to recruit course writers in at least six key areas of teaching methodology. Was that the case in July 2004 and has the situation been resolved? What is the current situation?

An interesting philosophical issue was also raised by IFUT which says that HETAC appears to have taken no cognisance of changes in teacher education. I notice Mr. Puirséil is bristling at this. IFUT stated:

While the universal trend is towards the increased professionalisation of teaching with an emphasis on research and teacher education rooted within universities and larger communities of learning, the Hibernian model, in spite of its claims to innovation in modernity, constitutes, ironically, old-style teacher training. It approaches the monitorial style of the 19th century. This is clearly illustrated in the complete absence from its staff of course authors and lecturers and of individuals with research profiles of significant experience in initial teacher education. Instead, the company relies heavily on the part-time assistance of the inservice trainers of the State-funded primary curriculum support programme. Such trainers will contribute to a serious de-skilling of the teaching profession.

I put that to the delegates because it appears that, if true, Hibernia's course is a backward step as many professional courses are now rooted in research, universities and innovation. What research backup does Hibernia College have?

It has also been stated that as recently as 23 June, each of the 27 newly recruited trainers — I believe they were Department of Education and Science trainers — was invited by an assistant co-ordinator of the primary curriculum support programme, on behalf of Hibernia College, to consider writing or tutoring courses for the company. Does this amount to a hidden State subsidy for a private company? These questions were raised at our previous meeting and Hibernia College and HETAC were not here to answer them.

Dr. Rowland

Would the Deputy read that out again, please?

Deputy Stanton

It stated that as recently as 23 June 2004, each of the 27 newly recruited trainers was invited by an assistant co-ordinator of the primary curriculum support programme, on behalf of Hibernia College, to consider writing or tutoring courses for the company. IFUT asked whether this amounted to a hidden State subsidy for a private company. This is all on the record of a previous committee meeting. I will take a break now but may have further questions later.

Deputy McEllistrim

I welcome the representatives of HETAC and Hibernia College. The percentage figure presented in the report today shows that 45% of the programme is presented on-line and 55% on site. Can we have some more detail on that? The classroom teaching element of the programme was stated as being 14 weeks. Is this an intensive 14 weeks or is it spread out over the year? How many times are students inspected over the 14-week teaching period?

Deputy Gogarty

I will try not to go over the pertinent issues raised by Deputy Stanton, but will come at the issue from a different angle. Over the years, the Irish educational training system and other educational sectors such as our primary, second level and third level schools have suffered from a huge deficit in terms of information technology and of all forms of interactive on-line learning. In principle there is no problem with distance learning, even for a postgraduate course such as this. We must remember that the amount of interaction that appears to be taking place within the school system as part of this course is comparable to that on undergraduate courses. Therefore, I cannot see why any of my colleagues would raise questions in that respect.

On the issue of whether there is proper interaction between students, given that most of the students are working while studying, they are interacting with their work colleagues. They are also graduates and have obviously interacted with their colleagues in college. Therefore, there is no problem in this area either.

With regard to Hibernia College, we should focus more on how exactly it operates. From the point of view of HETAC, we should focus on the future in terms of education, particularly undergraduate teacher training. There is a question mark in terms of the exact software being used by Hibernia College and how it is adapted to the Irish market. I raised this old chestnut previously in respect of Wired for Learning, the programme set up in primary schools to encourage more IT usage. During the course of the studies carried out by doctoral students, it was discovered that the software provided by IBM was very Americanised and was not suited to the work being carried out in the schools. The schools adapted the software as much as they could. They found it useful because it was hardware which they were not otherwise getting from the Department of Education and Science. They decided this was a chance to interact. They acknowledged it was not a perfect situation but because it was being offered by the Department, they decided to go with it. In terms of the software being used interactively, is it adapted to English as spoken in Ireland? What form of spelling is used? Is the word "colour" spelled "color", for instance?

I would like some feedback from both Hibernia College and HETAC about the requirement for students to subscribe to relevant library sources. This could smack of schools being promised equipment if they install a Coca-Cola vending machine. Students are required to subscribe to Questia or Xanadu. What would be wrong with asking students to source a book from whatever source? The requirement seems to tie it into a tied corporate ethos, which is the norm in the United States but is not the norm, as yet, in Ireland. There is a question to be answered about the level of independence of learning. Both Questia and Xanadu are reputable companies with fast storage of text and information. If one is fed a diet of Fox News every day and one lives in Washington, does that mean one will have an unbiased view? Why is there a tie-in to these arrangements and why are students seemingly mandatorily required to access this information?

On the broader issue regarding HETAC, the INTO has stated that under no circumstances does it wish to see undergraduate teacher education carried out on-line. There is a major question to be answered. If, as Hibernia College contends, and I suggest, correctly, it is possible to do postgraduate training on-line with a 45% to 55% split in terms of classroom or on the ground training, this raises questions about whether the next plan would be to propose some form of undergraduate training. I would like some feedback from Mr. Puirséil on the implications for undergraduate training. Were the Department of Education and Science to sanction, even in principle, the notion of a three-year course or perhaps a slightly longer four-year course to train as a qualified teacher, what effect would that have on the system? It would invariably privatise the whole system. I contend that, in terms of training, an aspect of choice is required.

Hibernia College is a private organisation providing a service for a fee, which is fine, but a State input is also required. There needs to be State control to ensure the curriculum is within the objectives set out by the Department of Education and Science. This could become a Boston or Berlin debate. We need to know HETAC's position and that of the new Minister for Education and Science. Is this part of a process to outsource education or merely to improve choice? If it is a case of improving choice, then so long as it is done properly, I contend it is not a major problem. I do not believe that with respect to undergraduate training, a compelling case can be made. I believe in terms of postgraduate training that valuable choices are available through this. Has HETAC examined the type of blend and software, the language differences, and the tied-in usage of resources and research that must be subscribed through the relevant libraries? Has this all been fully checked? Learning from what Hibernia College is doing as an innovator, has there been any investigation into the use of distance learning within the existing State-involved sector?

There is a danger that because Hibernia College is leading the way, the State will decide to let it lead the way and leave what it might regard as its own crummy system in place elsewhere. That would be both wrong and dangerous. What is neither wrong nor dangerous is allowing a certain element of competition and innovation. Are there plans to ensure that postgraduate training is upgraded within the State-run system? What is the current situation regarding undergraduate training?

Vice-Chairman

I remind Deputy Gogarty there is a vote in the Dáil.

Deputy Gogarty

I will finish in 30 seconds in that case. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the IT and research skills of those undertaking the undergraduate courses would be inferior to what is on offer from Hibernia College. How will this be addressed? For everything to work out properly, there needs to be a balance between the private and the public. There is a certain danger inherent in allowing everything to go to the private system. I welcome the proposals from Hibernia College but I have serious reservations about the idea that this would be the sole on-line interactive distance learning option. It seems the Department is washing its hands.

Vice-Chairman

I suggest we suspend the sitting until about 1 p.m. to vote.

Sitting suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 1.05 p.m.

Deputy Crowe

I welcome the delegations. While many questions have been covered, the essential areas of concern are quality, quantity and accountability. It is disappointing we do not have a day together. I suggest we consider this possibility in the near future as a means of trying to dispel any misconceptions or concerns many of us have regarding the course.

I welcome HETAC's decision on Monday to appoint extern examiners. The delay in establishing extern examination possibly led to much of the concern. I am conscious that the OECD, in the conclusions of its review of e-learning, stated "the central challenge is the protection of standards", which it noted "can be difficult to achieve without the involvement of well-established providers".

Many of the concerns raised at the previous hearing related to the question of Hibernia College's accreditation. Others included its financial viability and the fact that it was offering a new course without having any experience of e-learning. It was stated information alone was not sufficient for the development of teachers. Concerns were also raised, for example, in a press statement issued today by the Union of Students of Ireland, that other colleges provided supports for students in terms of welfare, health and so forth. Does Hibernia College provide any support for students?

Deputy Staunton referred to disadvantaged students. I am conscious of the cost of the course. With other colleges talking about opening up to young people from disadvantaged backgrounds and removing ivory towers, is Hibernia College considering ways of encouraging more young people from disadvantaged backgrounds to participate in its courses?

The delegation from the Irish Federation of University Teachers addressed the issue of monitoring students. Another issue raised during our previous discussion was that of the Irish language. I note that a course is available in the Gaeltacht.

The teaching profession appears to be moving towards much greater interaction between teachers and pupils. I note that 55% of the course is delivered on-site and 45% delivered on-line. Is this adequate?

What criteria did HETAC use in issuing accreditation? I was concerned by a number of newspaper articles by professors and others in which they stated they were not involved in Hibernia College, despite suggestions to the contrary. Hibernia was asked how this had happened. Surely the fact that many of the people the company had suggested were connected with the course were not had an impact on HETAC's deliberations on the submission it had received from the company seeking accreditation? Perhaps the delegation from HETAC is not in a position to go into detail on how its decision was reached.

Concerns have been expressed that HETAC is not covered by the Freedom of Information Act. Many are at a loss to understand how Hibernia College was awarded accreditation, particularly in the light of the suggestion that course length should be extended from 18 months to provide more holistic, rounded teacher training. Regarding the expertise available to HETAC, I suggest that many of the people who made the decision on accreditation had no experience in the teaching area and I would welcome some clarification on that point.

The Minister has capped entry to the teachers' colleges, yet entry to this course has not been restricted. In year one there was an intake of 100 students and that figure has now risen to 192. Will a representative of Hibernia College indicate how many students are currently enrolled on this course? Not having a cap on the Hibernia course will impact negatively on the other colleges. It is clearly not a level playing field. Was this taken into account by HETAC when accreditation was awarded? At least one third of the nine people listed as members of the academic side later denied involvement with Hibernia. That is extraordinary and gives rise to serious questions.

I am concerned about whether 18 months is an adequate duration for the course. Clearly HETAC believed that was the case but, on reflection, have any concerns arisen? Members of the DES, including Eamon Murtagh, assistant chief inspector, expressed concern at some aspects of the course. He agreed that the Internet is an exciting educational medium with tremendous potential in all areas of education, including teacher training. However, he stated it was a new medium and experience of its use to deliver substantial parts of the professional training programme were limited. He also referred to the ongoing monitoring of students on the assimilation of course content. I am concerned that HETAC only made a decision last Monday to have external assessment of the course.

It is extraordinary that the programme was accredited without any information on course content in areas such as religious studies, psychology of education, philosophy of education, arts education, TM Gaeilge, TM English, TM maths, TM history, TM geography, TM science, TM visual arts, TM drama, TM music, APM law and insurance in education, APM parent-teacher relations and APM first aid. One can understand that concerns have arisen due to the lack of openness and transparency in the accreditation process and the fact that such information was not handed over.

Senator Minihan

I too, welcome the delegations and thank them for their presentations. HETAC is the national accreditation and awarding body for third level education institutions outside the university sector and the Dublin Institute of Technology. It awards qualifications at all levels of higher education and training up to doctorate level. If we were to pursue some of the questioning put this morning then the implication is that HETAC has lost credibility; that it does not award anything and has no status. I would like to hear some elaboration from HETAC on the number of courses for which it has awarded accreditation in addition to the one we are discussing. If I were to follow the line of some of the questioning here, a great deal of postgraduate courses currently being awarded would suddenly collapse if we were to say that HETAC's method of accreditation is somewhat flawed, inadequate and unsuitable. I do not see why HETAC has suddenly come under such scrutiny for its method of accreditation. Perhaps it would be helpful for the committee to get an outline of all the other courses, which appear to operate successfully, accredited by HETAC.

I would not subscribe to that view. I believe HETAC is an independent body that awards accreditation on merit. Assessment for accreditation is an ongoing process for which one convenes panels and boards. Examination is part of a process which includes inviting resubmissions and recommending changes and adjustments. That is the job of HETAC — or at least I would hope that is the case. It is an ongoing process. I do not share in the overall criticism of HETAC in this regard. If I were to go down that line I would be questioning all the other courses it has previously accredited.

I am a big fan of e-learning. That does not in any way mean that I carry a torch for Hibernia College. I do not in any way at all, but I am a big fan of e-learning. I stated this at previous meetings in different contexts. As a society we have to understand that our methods of instruction are changing. The method of communicating knowledge has changed dramatically and this affects learning among children in primary school right up to postgraduate level. We can bring it into our homes for the use of our children. The use of technology in education has greatly increased in the past 20 years. It is incredible. We have to embrace it if we want to continue to capture the attention of students. Whether we like it or not, it is the way forward.

On the other hand, if I were to answer all the e-mails I receive offering me a range of degrees, I would have a great deal of letters after my name but might not have studied anything. One of the downsides of this phenomenon is that there is a great deal on offer in the big e-world. I could have master's degrees in everything. Perhaps I could even be a surgeon if I were to follow all the courses on offer. An issue of credibility is at stake, which is why we have quality assurance. Deputy Crowe's question is most valid in that regard. What distinguishes this course from all the other types of diploma or degree courses we are offered on a daily basis? I would like to hear some elaboration on the quality assurances in place and how they are implemented.

We must deliver methods of instruction in a more productive way. If this approach is more productive then we must embrace it and if it has to be fine tuned then we have to fine tune it. The area of e-learning is the way forward. I would welcome some clarification on the appointment of the outside examiners who carry out the assessment. Do they also officiate as external examiners in what would be regarded as mainline institutions? If that is the case, they can compare the two methods which, in this context, would be important.

Reference was made in submissions to the on-campus and off-campus aspects of the course. I was somewhat heartened by the percentage breakdown. However, a valid question was previously raised about how the percentages were calculated. I understand the method of calculation is focused on centres throughout the country but perhaps we would benefit from some elaboration as to how they were reached.

Deputy Stanton referred to on-campus and off-campus activity in regard to the development of students. In this case we are dealing with postgraduates who have already been through the process. If I am wrong, I am sure I will be corrected.

I note that many of the delegates sitting opposite hold MAs and PhDs. What percentage of their MA or PhD courses were based in the classroom as opposed to externally? My understanding is that quite a percentage is external. Did the members of the delegations not experience and embrace life beyond campus in the classroom when they were preparing their theses or dissertations? I suggest they worked on their own and met their lecturers or professors at various stages but were not in the classroom every day. We must also examine that issue so that we do not question the method of awarding MAs or PhDs even though students are not in classrooms for the two year period. It is an issue on which perhaps those delegates who hold MAs and PhDs would like to comment.

I read recently that some 40,000 children are being taught by unqualified teachers. In that context, Deputy Crowe asked about whether students from disadvantaged areas are included. My understanding is that most of the 40,000 children who are being taught by unqualified teachers are in disadvantaged areas. If we want to embrace disadvantaged areas, we must first of all get qualified teachers to them.

In light of what I said earlier, we should embrace e-learning to such an extent that we should be asking how we can expand it. I make no apologies for being a genuine fan of e-learning. This applies not just to primary school teachers but in all forms of education. We have all heard the statistics about disinterest among young people in science subjects. I would like to see modern technology and e-learning embraced in the teaching of science at primary school level because it is a way forward. Given the cost of on-campus education for children — leaving out the educational element and focusing on accommodation and so on — if we can provide a form of education that meets the required standards to produce teachers who are every bit as good as those who have been trained in the more traditional method, we should embrace it.

We should also embrace the fact that people can engage in lifelong learning. If we want to achieve our goal of being a knowledge-based economy, we must provide the facilities for people to continue their education and maintain their job at the same time.

How does the 14 week period which students spend in the classroom compare with more traditional primary school teaching? The market will drive the demand for places in private institutions like Hibernia. If there are vacancies in any profession, for example, teaching, people will seek to become qualified because there is a job at the end of the training. I hope that institutions like Hibernia will continually adapt to different courses to meet the market demand in different areas. The academic chairman, Professor Mitchell, among others, has a background in the more traditional type of teaching and brings a great deal of experience to bear in his role. I am sure that, in his interactions with HETAC, he was able to make the necessary comparisons to ensure quality.

I disagree with the over-criticism of HETAC because it would bring into question so much if we were to believe everything we have been told. I do not mean the questioning by my colleagues but rather the general questioning about accreditation. If I were to believe everything I have been told, there is a major conspiracy with an incredible number of players.

Some valid questions have been asked today and, in answering them, the delegations will bring a clarity to the situation. While I am a fan of e-learning and believe it is the way forward, I support HETAC in the way it has set about its business. However, that does not mean I do not have certain questions, particularly in regard to people who, it is said, were involved and later disowned the institution and denied any knowledge. Those issues must be addressed because there are valid questions to be asked.

I hope that today's proceedings will bring a certain conclusion to the conspiracy theories and rumours and that we can acknowledge the professionalism of HETAC and acknowledge that when it accredits a course such as that which we are discussing, this must be accepted and embraced in the same manner as we accept the accreditation of any other course.

Senator Fitzgerald

I welcome both delegations and listened attentively to what their members said. We have all been inundated with questions about the credibility of HETAC and the course in question. I must declare my own educational background because I am a graduate of St. Patrick's, my daughter is attending St. Patrick's and I am a member of the INTO. Having said that, if my daughter had not gained entry to St. Patrick's, we would be chasing Hibernia College.

I am not a fan of e-learning because when it comes to IT, I am illiterate.

Senator Minihan

The Senator should sign up for a course.

Senator Fitzgerald

I would not be accepted. I was told I had to do a pre-entry course.

The questions which have been articulated here today have, quite justifiably, been raised in the past few months. The delegations have come before the committee because, as legislators, we have to put the questions which have been thrown into the public arena, for which we make no apologies. I support all my colleagues around the table in reiterating those questions. I too blinked and raised my eyebrows at some of the questions such as those about the academic credibility of some of the people attached to either accrediting courses in HETAC itself or Hibernia College. One question asked was what the personnel involved know about teaching. I certainly would not challenge Mr. Puirséil on that, knowing where he is coming from since I challenged him in the past to my cost.

These questions are in the public domain and while they are, as Senator Minihan and others have stated, they must be answered. This is an opportunity for the delegations to answer them and put them to rest. Having read and heard about HETAC and Hibernia College, I was presented with a submission from one source which was very critical and denigrating and full of conspiracy theories. It suggested a cosy cartel in the private sector, divorced from traditional areas of teacher training with which my daughter and I are familiar. As a result of this, it was suggested that we should be immediately suspicious of it.

I love excellence and promote it in all its forms; I hate bloody elitism. What is coming across to me from a submission made at a previous meeting of this committee smacks of professional and career elitism. I am sorry I was not here on the day because I would have interrogated the delegation members and hope I will have an opportunity to do so again. Instead of simply making allegations of a cosy cartel, it is about time the traditional areas were shaken up and the perceived cartel taken on and confronted. Despite my lack of knowledge about e-learning, I am enthusiastic about new initiatives in education — we are told that education is a continuum and is for life. To renew our vision constantly and re-energise our enthusiasm for education we need new initiatives and this is such an initiative. I do not know the witnesses, but many of the rumours have been dispelled by the presentations today.

I never questioned the credibility of Hibernia College because I looked at the attitude of HETAC, a credible, independent organisation with highly qualified members and structures in place to assess quality and standards. I would not presume to ask the witnesses to prove themselves in that area because, although it might sound like a cop-out, if HETAC is satisfied that Hibernia College e-learning for postgraduates in primary teaching can be recommended, I would be slow to denigrate such a decision. There are, however, legitimate questions that must be asked and answered in a forum like this so that we can move forward knowing that the course being offered to graduates for primary teaching matches the best courses available. I am not concerned about the e-learning dimension, with 45% taking place off site, although I am delighted that 55% will take place on site.

As a former primary teacher, I am interested in the 14 week class contact. How does this compare with the class contact opportunities available to the postgraduate students in the traditional colleges? The supervision of the teaching practice hours was mentioned and I would like to know about the calibre of the supervisors who are taken on. What are their backgrounds and teaching experience?

Deputy Stanton asked about student welfare but if a graduate comes forward to participate in a postgraduate programme, he or she would not have achieved graduate status unless he or she was reasonably well-rounded. If the system has failed him or her, it should acknowledge that before making the award. I am always concerned to a degree about student welfare but these are graduates who have been deemed by the system to be suitably qualified for an award and, therefore, have a proven record as students. It would, however, be reassuring to know the college had an input into student welfare.

I was taken aback by the allegations of a lack of transparency, professional expertise, experience of education and teaching. When I went through the documentation I could not find any evidence of such a lack. I would not say that everything is perfect — the college would be the first to admit that no one in education ever does anything perfectly because it is an ongoing process of renewal, updating and reviewing, and everybody committed to a professional career in education aims for that perfection.

Senator U. Burke

I welcome both delegations. Anything and everything that helps to address the fact that there are 700 untrained people in classrooms throughout the State should be examined.

Is there an analysis of the first intake and its breakdown by gender? There is concern about the unwillingness or unattractiveness of teaching for men and that males are no longer going into teaching as they were in the past. Is there an in-built gender balance to address that? There are moves at present to address the concerns about the absence of males teaching at primary level.

Are people using Hibernia College as a second chance to get into education? The testimony given by students in the Irish Examiner reflects delight at being involved in education regardless of the time or money involved.

Students will soon graduate from Hibernia College. Will it be possible to overcome the obvious bias that exists? If a Hibernia College graduate goes for an interview before a board of management where the chairperson is the local parish priest, the secretary is an INTO member and the parents may have been indoctrinated by the media controversy, there would be a resistance to appoint that person. Is the college prepared for such resistance to its graduates? Success will be measured by the first output and how quickly it is taken into the system. That will be the proof of the pudding — the number of graduates who secure an appointment within a reasonable length of time.

With regard to 55% off-site work in the areas of physical education, music, dance and games there is great concern at primary level that games have been neglected and the school time available for them is declining. How does the course cater for that in a recognisable way? There could be courses on-site and time given by professional people in those areas. The GAA, in particular, throughout rural Ireland, states that if games are not available with proper coaching at national school level, the organisation loses the children to TV, videos and so on. It is important that there is a recognisable module within the training that can convince the doubters, of whom there are probably many, that this course can meet any test by whatever yardstick such activities are measured.

The concern is not confined to GAA games but also to music, dance and art. If those courses are available the critics must wait and see the uptake of Hibernia's graduates in time. Those who criticise it from the outset do so out of fear of competition. My aim is to eliminate untrained teachers from the primary sector. It is of paramount importance that there are trained professionals in the schools, whether they come from Hibernia or by the traditional path.

Vice-Chairman

How long is the course? I have received mixed messages about its length. How much time are part-time students expected to put into the course? I note that the HETAC evaluation is for courses in general and is not specific to Hibernia, but it has said it will appoint external examiners. They are concerned with course content, marking and so on. Does HETAC have any role in controlling the number of students? Or does anyone have that role, for example, the Department of Education and Science?

I defend the right of interested bodies who came before the committee to raise their concerns as they legitimately did here and some of us have repeated those this morning. IFUT and the Conference of Heads of Irish Colleges of Education mentioned the involvement of the primary curriculum support programme and were quoted in the submission for validation. Can HETAC and Hibernia clarify the role of that body which is part of the Department of Education and Science? Was it involved in devising courses and teaching methodologies and, if so, to what extent and was it official?

Deputy Stanton

This is a question for HETAC. Mr. Gabriel Harrison, an inspector from the Department, told us that the course was approved by HETAC and then referred to the Department's inspectors who identified gaps in it. There was a deficit in hours of duration in the area of special education and there was a question about the status of teachers already working who do the course and are employed in particular classes. It appears that HETAC validated the course and the Department then had an input. It might have been better if it was the other way around and the Department inspectors looked at it before it was validated.

The on-line content seems to demand a rigorous broadband or ISDN capability on the part of the students. Does that work? A student who does not have broadband must pay instead for dialling up.

Mr. Puirséil

I will do my best to deal with Deputy Stanton's and the Chairman's questions first. The panel was informed about the consultation process which had taken place, in particular consultations with the Department. I was not here for the Department's presentation but I have read the transcripts, thanks to the Internet on which we do most of our research. There was a degree of confusion and Mr. Harrison talked about three versions of the plan at various stages. Hibernia College was in discussion with the Department. Various drafts were with the inspectors before it came to HETAC and that was brought to the panel's attention.

Deputy Crowe mentioned a decision last Monday. That was not to have external examiners as they have existed with HETAC and the NTA since 1972. That is standard. In recent years, under the qualifications Act, we have moved to a point where the institution appoints the external examiners following our general guidelines. We have given the institutions greater autonomy. However, last Monday we decided that because the new providers were starting off they would not appoint external examiners for the first three years. We would appoint them using our experience and they would be people with knowledge and practical experience — to use a term with which some committee members are familiar — of assessment, course content and so on. They come from the area of study in which they examine, in broad terms, and could make valid comparisons between the standards in this programme and those in other courses with which they were connected. We do not generally deal with the number of students enrolled.

I had trouble with an inspector in my early years for introducing a tape recorder into the classroom and I have sometimes foolishly, and sometimes sensibly, been involved in innovation in education. In the 1980s I was on a committee in the Department which considered the introduction of computers into education but we did not get very far. A professor in Limerick University who was a teacher at the time was on that committee. I am glad matters have moved on since then.

We accredit approximately 1,000 programmes in total, all of which were reformed during the past year. In 2003, some 54 new programmes were validated. To date, up to 38 programmes have been validated. There will be valuation panels in Sligo today, Dublin tomorrow and Cork on Monday whose reports will be made as soon as possible. HETAC aims to operate with great efficiency and expedition in doing its work. Sometimes an occasional window of opportunity may occur during vacation or examination periods in the State colleges, which is what happened in the instanced case. We are very open regarding our policies which are available on the Internet. We are the secretariat of the international body for quality assurance in higher education with 100 members. I am vice-president of the European organisation for quality assurance of state bodies. We are also a founder member of the European Consortium of Accreditation and very much involved in developing quality standards in higher education.

The timescale was not unusual. We endeavour to turn around from submission to validation within six months and it is quicker at other times. Deputy Stanton referred to the Kellaghan report which I believe he may — I hesitate to say it — have got wrong. He referred to e-learning but the issue brought up by other people before the committee related more to the duration of the programme in which a longer period was recommended. However, a significant number of members of the group were opposed to this and it seems to me to be a split decision of the group. Six different reasons were listed as to why a longer duration than 18 months was not appropriate. More detail on the reasons is available on pages 68 and 69 of the programme. We will supply the annual report of the council to the joint committee which lists the programmes validated last year, many of which were extremely innovative.

There was some difficulty at the last meeting over the term "course author". I was taken aback when I saw it in the transcripts. "Course author" in this case refers to lecturer. A lecturer delivers a lecture but also writes the lecture, so one can describe them as lecture writers. I understand in this case that course author is the equivalent of a lecturer.

Under the legislation, we must deal with every provider who comes to HETAC. We cannot discriminate between those funded by the State, fees or private bodies. We are also obliged to receive any learner who comes to us with a portfolio of knowledge and to have it assessed. If the knowledge they have corresponds to what is required we are obliged to make an award to them. I did not write this legislation; it was written by the Oireachtas. It is the law and it is our job to implement it. We are also doing this in the context of the qualifications framework which relates to knowledge, skill and competence — the learning outcome rather than the duration. It is what people know, what they can do, and their skills and competence at the end of the programme that must be assessed. No matter how people learn, either on-line or by day or night, as long as they have acquired the knowledge, skill and competence, HETAC is obliged to deal with their assessment.

Personally, I believe it is a great advance and one that will be encompassed in a European framework of qualifications which European Ministers for Education will agree next May in Bergen, Norway, for 40 countries.

Dr. Orlaith McCaul

To clarify the content of the quality assurance submission from Hibernia College, one of HETAC's functions is to agree quality assurance procedures with all of its 40 providers. In line with this, guidelines and criteria for quality assurance procedures in higher education and training were issued in late 2002. All providers were invited to submit their quality assurance procedures to HETAC. In order for HETAC to agree to them, they must meet these guidelines and criteria. All providers must show their procedures for the design and approval of programmes, subjects and modules and the assessment of learners. They must also show the ongoing monitoring of programmes, the procedures for evaluation of the programmes at regular intervals, how staff are selected and appointed, how premises and faculties are evaluated and procedures for evaluating services related to the programme. Each of the providers receives a copy of this and is asked to submit quality assurance procedures in line with it.

On 31 October 2003, a submission was received from Hibernia College which covered many of the main areas. A panel was appointed to review the documentation, comprising two international experts and a national expert in quality assurance in higher education. The panel was not satisfied that it met the guidelines and criteria and requested a re-submission. This was received from Hibernia College in April. A second panel was appointed, again comprising international experts on quality assurance procedures. They were invited to Dublin for a meeting but were not satisfied that it met the criteria and asked for a second resubmission. Hibernia College responded positively and took on board the panel's queries. A second resubmission was made and again reviewed by a different international panel. The panel met on 14 July 2004 and was satisfied that the re-submission met the criteria and guidelines. It recommended that HETAC agree quality assurance procedures with Hibernia College.

Mr. Puirséil

Of the 40 colleges that HETAC deals with, only 15 have agreed quality assurance procedures. Of those, 13 are State colleges and only two are outside of the State system, Hibernia College being one.

Regarding the numbers of teachers, I must take off my HETAC hat and put on one of the many others I have worn. Whether there are too many teachers is not an absolute. It is a matter of somebody deciding class size and pupil-teacher ratio. Deputy Stanton claimed there was an oversupply of teachers in the 1980s. As president of the INTO at the time, I felt there were not enough teachers in the classrooms. It is an issue of class sizes and what facilities we want to provide as a State to our children. The fact that there are unemployed teachers does not mean there are too many teachers. However, I am going beyond my brief on that aspect.

Mr. Joe Cox

One serious allegation was made that the HETAC panel had not spotted gaps which were subsequently spotted by others. One of these gaps was in special needs education. This was a matter of extreme concern to me. Item (e) of my report on the panel’s visits states that this was spotted and requests were made for it to be rectified. It was subsequently rectified. In the autumn of 2003, I had the full submission document in which all the information was provided. The recommendations the panel had made in its findings had been complied with and there was an accompanying letter from Hibernia College.

When we get submissions, they invariably merit discussions, which is why we have site visits. It is an iterative approach. In the past 21 months I have been involved in the validation of 90 programmes, details of which I will provide to the committee. These were at higher certificate, ordinary degree, primary degree, honours degree and postgraduate level in science, business, arts and engineering. I have dealt with programmes in accounting, social studies, therapeutic child care and one very substantial group of nursing programmes involving six institutes of technology and five or six health boards. In all of these programmes I have never come across one where we have walked away and said, "That is perfect; there are no gaps".

There have always been gaps. There was one identified in this particular programme and Hibernia College was perfectly forward about it. The programme related to the psychology and philosophy of education. There is a statement made there that the syllabus was in the process of being prepared and in the autumn of that year, on 17 October, a letter with its accompanying document showed that a full syllabus was provided in that area, with which we were satisfied. Therefore, we did spot gaps. There are always gaps.

My chief executive also referred to the question of the course authors. That is causing confusion. As Hibernia College is now advertising for course authors, it seems to me that the syllabus detail is now being written and that my panel and HETAC through its process approved a programme without having details of what would be covered in that programme. I am sure the representatives from Hibernia College will add to that and explain. To my mind, regarding a programme in any area, the actual lectures are not prepared three years ahead. We would not have sight of the lectures or knowledge of what lecturers will be delivering them. That may be causing some confusion.

Professor Mitchell

Much probing has been done but very fair questions have been asked and we are anxious to answer all of them if time allows. We brought along a large delegation so that we would have all the necessary expertise to cover the various areas which we were certain would come up. I will take the questions more or less in the order they were asked, so that we will not skip important items.

Deputy Stanton asked about the need for broadband. We might dispose of that fairly quickly as it is a straightforward question. Dr. Breakwell might briefly comment on the computer requirements for students to take this course satisfactorily.

Dr. Nicholas Breakwell

All the courses can be studied very effectively using a standard dial-up connection. Obviously, if one has a broadband connection one's experience will be improved and everything will be quicker, but the downloading of content while studying on-line as an independent learner and the attendance at synchronous on-line tutorials in a virtual classroom scenario are both perfectly serviced by a standard dial-up connection.

Deputy Stanton also mentioned the cost implications in that regard. Obviously, it costs money, but broadband and dial-up costs are roughly the same. Broadband costs about €45 monthly and a dial-up connection such as Eircom Anytime costs about €30 monthly. There is not much difference.

Professor Mitchell

A number of people raised the important issue of 45% on-line versus 55% off-line, how these figures are calculated and the reality behind them. Ms McDonnell, our chief of operations, might tell us briefly the basis of those calculations.

Ms Sara McDonnell

Our first class for the higher diploma, recruited in October, will complete the programme in May 2005. That is a 20-month period. The figure of 18 months appears in the literature because that is the content delivery period. In October there is an orientation period for all new students. Content delivery starts in November and the exams are held in May. Content delivery ceases in April. Therefore, it runs for 18 months.

In total there are 1,200 hours of task or contact time which students must complete in order to receive the qualification. The percentage of 45% of content delivered on-line is derived by taking the number of hours of the content delivered on-line as a percentage of the whole, while the on-site figure of 55% relates to the on-side sessions at the education centres around the country, the PE week and the Gaeltacht sessions. When one adds up all those hours, as a percentage of the whole, they make up 55%.

The 45% delivered on-line is analogous to a student sitting in a lecture theatre listening to a professor. Our students tell us that the interactivity of our content keeps them engaged at every turn and any one of us who has sat in a lecture theatre knows how important that is. We are not making apologies for the on-line component and saying that "only 45%" is delivered on-line. That figure is accurate, but the experience for the students is interactive. Within the on-line content, students take part in synchronous tutorials once a week per course. They log on with their tutors in classes of approximately 25 students. They all log in at the same time and there is intense interaction during that period. Each class of 25 is assigned a tutor, who is available to the students during the week, during the running of all the content, in order to answer any questions students may have. That same tutor goes to the on-site sessions which would take place on average every second week. Accordingly, there is intense interaction between tutors and students.

I will let Dr. McManus speak for herself but as director of the programme she could no doubt give a bio-profile and psychological profile of every student on the programme. To say that we do not know our students or know that they are suitable for teaching in classrooms is incredibly unfair. I know Dr. McManus will support that point.

Dr. Toni McManus

It is very difficult to get a place on this programme. We get thousands of applications and, sadly, we have to turn many people away. They must all appear before an interview panel of three people. The committee members and mature people like myself know that to appear in front of a panel of three people is quite daunting. The applicants train for the interview and get grinds in Irish. They can guess what questions will come up in Irish as it is not rocket science. There is nothing more agonising than to watch a poor individual stuttering and stumbling in an effort to get the words out in Irish, trying desperately to get a place on our programme.

We know our students well. As Ms McDonnell said, they are tutored in groups of 25. Obviously we select them through the interview process, but they also have their 14 weeks of teaching practice. Our supervisors are told that if they are in any doubt as to the suitability of a candidate, they should contact us immediately. In my year as director of the programme in Hibernia College, neither I nor my programme administrators have had a single telephone call to say a person is unsuitable to be near children. We have had calls saying certain persons would need a second supervisor to give guidance or support in his or her teaching methods and we can handle that aspect. Sadly, not all meet the grade. We have students repeating. We will help them. However, I have no doubt about the suitability of the candidates on our programme.

A question was asked as to whether we get to know the students. I have attended many funerals since starting this programme. We get to know them very well. I know it is e-learning and a third level college, but it has a human face. We care about our students. I care passionately about them because I have such respect for them. They are extremely dedicated and committed and they fought to get on our programme. There is a woman of 61 who said to me that, do or die, she would get that diploma before she retired. That woman has only a handful of years left. I have strayed from the point.

Professor Mitchell

A related question is the issue of formation versus information. I suppose it gets to the root of the question of whether the on-line medium is suitable to any extent for the training of teachers. I have spent my life in university education and written extensively on the issue of the undergraduate experience — the formative experience that should be part of what undergraduates go through, the value of the on-campus experience, the interaction and the extracurricular activities. Trinity College has over 100 clubs and societies. We consider those to be the lifeblood of a good education. This is critically important for the development of young people, their intellectual and physical skills and their moral sensibilities. However, we are talking about people who are 17, 18, 19 or 20 years old — it is the undergraduate experience.

Senator Minihan raised the question of what it is like at the postgraduate level. There is a world of difference when one becomes a postgraduate, whether on a conventional campus or studying on-line or through another medium. One is then considered to be at a stage where one is required to think independently, to pursue information independently, to sift and sort and put it together and make it say something independently, since that is the stage which one's intellectual development has reached. That is the type of exercise and experience that will bring one's intellectual development to the required level for a postgraduate degree.

What we are talking about relates to that process, since the students on this course are mature. They have been through the on-campus and formative stage of their late teenage years and have had the benefit of it all. They are honours graduates and intellectually sophisticated. Many already have higher diplomas in education and many have extensive experience of primary teaching. They are exceedingly well motivated and sure of their vocation. Dr. McManus mentioned how they struggle to get onto a course. They want to be primary teachers. They know their minds. Some have been teachers for a long time, while others aspire to it. They are sure of their vocation and capable of independent study. They know how to avail of the numerous learning benefits that information technology makes available in an exciting way. Every month there is some new learning aid that enriches people's experience when studying on-line.

It is important to bear all that in mind when considering this issue. One must also bear in mind what Ms McDonnell and Dr. McManus said about the interactive nature of modern technology and the systems Hibernia employs to get to know students and involve them. Those are also important. Students are not isolated on this course, even on the on-line section. They are divided into groups of 25. Those 25 gel together very well. They are constantly thrown together. They e-mail and talk to each other constantly. They have tutorials every week. These tutorials are live and synchronous. Therefore, they do not feel they are working in isolation. They have all the benefits of interaction with other students. I do not want to repeat what has been said already, but it is very important not to think of even the on-line element of this course as students working in splendid isolation looking at an impersonal screen. That is not how it works.

Another issue raised by several members of the committee related to the involvement of tutors and inspectors of the primary curriculum support programme in this course and whether it amounted to some kind of hidden subsidy from the Department of Education and Science. I will ask Dr. Rowland to respond to that issue. It is a fair question which needs to be addressed.

Dr. Rowland

Expert or lead teachers from around the country were taken out of the classroom by the Department of Education and Science so they could spend time together and then go out and educate teachers in the classrooms about the new curriculum, which some of us call the "new new curriculum", having had our own "new curriculum" in our generation. The new curriculum consisted of two books. The 1999 curriculum is much more sophisticated and elaborate, which is wonderful for primary schools.

The Department of Education and Science appointed those lead teachers to go out and implement the new curriculum in the schools. When we were considering who would be the best people to address the teaching of the methodologies in the area of teaching not academic Irish but Irish or English in the classroom based on the new curriculum, it was very clear that the most suitable people would be the PCSP teachers. We approached Áine Lawlor, who was the executive director of the PCSP, and asked her if it might be possible for Hibernia to contract some of those teachers in the different areas. She approached the Department of Education and Science, which is their employer, and it gave permission as long as it did not impact on their commitment to the Department, and as long as we paid for that service from those people.

Most of our on-sites are on Saturdays. We use the education centres which we also pay for ourselves. We contract in "wheels", for example, in Navan, Galway, Castlebar, Tralee, Cork and Dublin west. They are a tremendous resource. It is also a natural add-on, since we are bringing the teachers into the centres. We pay for them ourselves. The PCSP tutors who have a comprehensive knowledge of the curriculum have turned out to be wonderful lecturers in the applied areas.

In addition, the issue of the library comes to mind. If a book which we want the student teachers to have is not available on-line, we place copies of the text at the student centres so they can access it without having to buy it. We have a commitment to which we ask everyone to stick, since it is very easy for one lecturer to say that a new book has come out which he or she would like students to have. We are committed to ensuring that students will not incur additional expense since we understand it is already an expensive venture for anyone to go to graduate school.

Some 92% of our first intake were already teaching in primary schools. The financial situation is not ideal and we have started to deal with that issue. We are looking at putting a scholarship programme in place. As a young company, we are not there yet, but we are working on it. We noticed that because people were able to stay in their jobs, they were able to raise the funds to do the graduate programme more easily than if they were giving up their jobs and going to the bank for a loan.

Reference was also made to the inspectors. There may have been some confusion on this issue. I will allow Dr. McManus to address the issue of the supervisors since she has more daily or weekly contact with them. The supervisors are primarily former school principals. There are a couple of former Department inspectors who have retired early and moved on and now work for us as regards the grading of our student teachers. There might have been some confusion as regards a couple of people who are working with us. However, they had left the Department before they came to us.

With regard to the supervision of students, I would like to answer the question about the 14 weeks. The 14 weeks are broken up into two five-week sessions and a four-week one spread over the course of the programme. Students will have, at least, two visits from supervisors but also, as with other institutions, we offer our complete range of students to the Department which generally selects approximately 10% of the total. My understanding is the Department tends to select people at the upper and lower ends of the middle spectrum to get a sample across the whole group.

The Department will then give us its recommendations and we are expected to have our supervisors allocate grades for them in a similar vein. In other words, it is an additional opportunity to control. Let us take, for example, a supervisor who is giving somebody a failing grade or an ‘A'. The Department's inspector might find, after looking at all the results, that we are 5% over his or her recommendations across the board, or perhaps 3% under. This is another check for us and requires the involvement of the inspectors.

Professor Mitchell

I believe that covers this particular question. It touched upon a concern raised by Deputy Crowe as regards disadvantage, scholarships and so forth. I would just add on a personal note, because I have had a deep interest in this area for a long time, that there are tremendous possibilities in e-learning to relieve the significant problem of educational disadvantage that we suffer in this country. Young people are able to cope with computers at an early age and they enjoy it. If we examine the possibilities of the use of computers and on-line communication at early stages in the education of young people, we will find it is a cost-effective and attractive way of getting students from disadvantaged backgrounds interested in learning. They will understand it is valuable and that it can be fun. Overall I believe e-learning offers significant hope for advances in the area of disadvantage, generally.

In regard to this particular area, the cost is only a fraction in comparison with conventional programmes. The fee is the only cost involved since people do not have to give up salaries, move from home or pay accommodation costs, etc. That in itself makes it accessible to a far wider range of people than previously. However, as our executive chairman mentioned, we are in the midst of considering what kind of financial aid package may be put together to help those for whom even the costs of this particular programme are more than they can deal with.

The question of quantity was raised by Deputies Crowe and Stanton. It was asserted that Hibernia's numbers were not capped, unlike those of the colleges. A question was also asked as to whether we were looking at surpluses, whether there is level playing field, etc. Again, I would ask Dr. Rowland to respond to those issues.

Dr. Rowland

The idea of taking an inventory of how many teachers we have in our schools today is something I would endorse and would really like someone to do. What needs to be looked at is not just how many teachers there are in our schools, but what their qualifications are. I have given an absolute commitment that we will never train a teacher for unemployment. I am a graduate of St. Patrick's College and have nothing but the height of respect for that institution. I remember when many teachers went to America in the 1980s and we worked at bartending and waitressing in Boston. We never want to go back to those days.

I believe Senator Minihan mentioned, and I read in the newspaper, that the former Minister for Education and Science said it may be self-correcting in the sense that nobody will want to do our course if he or she cannot get a job. We cannot lower the standards. That is the whole point regarding quality. The standards and the benchmarks are set. Our students have to have an honour in Irish. They may have a first-class honours degree in physics, but they will not get in without an honour in Irish in the leaving certificate.

We implement all the criteria set down by the Department as well as interviewing them in Irish and in English. All of us — whether it is the institutions, the INTO or the Department of Education and Science — need to compile an inventory of what is there. Then we need to factor in early retirements as well as leaves of absence and the anecdotal assertion that many more teachers are entering specialised areas and leaving the classroom. The best we can do at the moment is to ensure we constantly talk to the INTO and the Department of Education and Science and understand that at no time do we want to train teachers for unemployment.

The reality is that nobody is capped. That is an important fact. An institution may take in as many students as it likes. The tuition rate is almost €6,000 for the graduate diploma. The difference is that the Department of Education and Science supports the public institutions with an additional per capita subsidy of €7,000 to €8,000. That is what is being called “the cap” because a limit is put on how many students may be taken in and for whom they will pay that additional subsidy. In reality any institution could charge a similar tuition rate to ours. One’s perspective on the cap depends on which side of the financial table one is looking at.

To some extent, I believe the arena will self-correct with regard to numbers. However, I will give a commitment, and I have said this from the start, that we have no intention of training too many teachers in Ireland. It simply would not help us because we do public administration, hospitality management, we are developing a pharmaceutical programme and have a law programme starting next month. The worst thing we could do is over-subscribe one programme because this would also carry over to the others. I would assure the committee we do not want to do that and we will not do so.

Vice-Chairman

I am conscious of the time and the fact that we have all been in here for a long time. Perhaps the witnesses could wrap matters up as quickly as possible.

Professor Mitchell

Important questions have been raised about art, drama, PE, music and how well these are being catered for in this programme. I would ask Dr. McManus to outline how those elements of the course are being handled.

Dr. McManus

Contrary to belief, the PE programme is not carried out on-line. We have a full week of on-site PE instruction by some members of the PCSP and by leading practitioners in the various fields. All aspects and strands of the curriculum are covered in that week. In terms of music, there are on-line lectures and on-site practical demonstrations with regard to percussion instruments. Members of the PCSP are involved. They are not on their own, but they have a significant involvement.

I am particularly proud of our innovative effort in the area of the visual arts. Throughout three weeks in the Gaeltacht of Cor na Móna we set up our own Irish college and we carried out strands of the visual arts programme trí Ghaeilge. We carried out teaching methods trí Ghaeilge. We have plans for the future to implement more elements of the curriculum, such as music and drámaíocht, trí Ghaeilge.

We have an input from members of the PCSP in drama. It occurs on-site and on-line. The students download their lectures and it is demonstrated for them on-site. Irish is our pride and joy. This is the jewel in our crown. We have academic Irish and we have "TM" or teaching methodologies Irish. Dr. Seán Ó Conchubhair is the head of the department of Gaeilge acadúil. One of the perks of my job is that I can listen in and I know I have access to everyone's programme. I know everything that is going on in this programme because I love it. They have an on-line chatroom called "An Seomra Cadrála". I listen in to that. They also have "An Ciorcal Cumarsáide", which is a communicative circle. They also have "Leabhar na bPunann", which is a portfolio of every single thing that you could properly think of in Irish teaching lessons, such as programmes to listen to on TG4 and Raidió na Gaeltachta. The head of the department came in and made recordings of the poetry of Máirtín Ó Díreáin and Seán Ó Riordáin. It is beautiful. The Irish syllabus is a cultural delight. It covers litríocht do pháistí, drámaíocht, amhránaíocht, úrscéal, gearrscéal and the old reliable stair na teanga, which we all did in our day. I am sure it is as interesting now as it always has been. The TM is covered on-line and on-site.

There was a reference to our monitorial style of teaching. I am knocked for six by that claim. A monitorial style of teaching was rejected out of hand by the parents of Ireland in the 19th century. This lady is very knowledgeable because she has written a book about the Irish hedge schools. The system never caught on. The dominant educators were hedge school masters who were charging fees for tuition. Parents rejected it. The monitorial system was a case of children taught by the master to teach children who knew less. Children were teaching groups of 15 children, having first been instructed by the master. Parents decided they could not have that as they were paying fees. To compare our teachers to child educators of the 19th century beggars belief. I do not have a clue what the gentleman who made the statement was talking about. It is neither historically nor factually correct.

Every aspect of the primary school curriculum is covered on our programme. We have authors and lecturers for every one of them. We have 20 course authors. We have 100 tutors and 60 dedicated supervisors. Dr. Rowland is correct, we have some retired staff members from the Department of Education and Science and we also have members from Ofsted. We have retired principals of schools, and we have teachers who are job-sharing, we have quite a wide range. The people that give our on-sites were blessed because we have highly qualified people who are principals of schools with years of experience. I can stand over every aspect of this course. I am enormously proud of it and I am delighted that all these deserving people have an opportunity to take part in our programme.

Professor Mitchell

While Dr. McManus is in full flow, could she answer one question that came up a number of times? Senator Fitzgerald specifically asked about the 14-week classroom experience. He asked how standard it was and how it compares with other programmes.

Dr. McManus

To be perfectly honest, I do not take note of what the opposition is doing. I am so busy getting on with my own job. We have 14 weeks of teaching practice. Most of our students are in situ in schools all of the time. How could anyone compete with that? Most of them are teaching day in and day out. They go home in the evening. I do not know how they do it, but they do their study at night and I take my hat off to them. I have enormous respect for them. I was a mature student in my own day. Some would argue that I have never been mature but I was a mature student once. I know how difficult that is. The people in Hibernia College and I will go the extra mile. These are unique people who are making history in our country. They are adding a chapter to the history of Irish education. I am very proud to be a part of it.

Vice-Chairman

There was a question about people's names that were originally in the submission that did not turn out to be involved.

Dr. Rowland

After the programme was announced, there were a number of people who did not work, as the institution with which they were associated asked them not to work with us. In another case the person was unable to continue to work with us because of a commitment. We have no interest in lowering standards. We have not done it in our previous lives and we will not do it now. We brought along the list of people who are working with us and their qualifications for the committee.

Deputy Stanton

Is Dr. Rowland saying that these people had been involved initially and then dropped out?

Dr. Rowland

We had asked them to work with us. Different people had different timing requirements. Initially we asked them and they said "Yes" and for whatever reasons they had, they later said they could not continue with us. We have had a very strong response. Some of our most adversarial colleagues have now come on board and are working with us. The past year has been a very interesting experience and an education for all of us. People saw the programme and saw the depth of work that went into it. Sara McDonnell and I have been working on this for three to four years. We did ask some of the experts at different institutions here to advise us and to work with us. It is a little disingenuous to say we fell out of the sky one weekend.

Vice-Chairman

Can I thank everyone who stayed with us? It has been a long day but an important meeting.

Mr. Tadhg Ó hÉalaithe

Maybe it was unfortunate that the publicity gave rise to this on-line idea. It is better understood that it is more than on-line, as has been explained by Hibernia. That gave reason for some opposition from some vested interests. None of us likes change and we are certainly involved in tremendous change in this area.

Ms McDonnell

I would be happy to sit here until 6.00 p.m. to answer all the questions that were asked today, although I am sure no one else would. It is so important to us. As director of operations, I represent all the staff at Hibernia College, from the people who answer the telephone to the authors on our other programmes. The inaccuracies and misinformation out there have been galling for us.

Vice-Chairman

If the witnesses feel there is anything they have not had time to answer, they can always write to the committee.

Ms McDonnell

We would also welcome anyone else to call us at any time to look at the programme and talk to our students. Some of them would like to be here but they have work to do.

Professor Mitchell

I would also formally like to record our thanks to the committee and its members who have asked so many interesting questions today.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.40 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 13 October 2004.