JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Sep 2005

Adult Literacy: Presentations.

Chairman

A proposed timetable for today's meeting has been circulated to members. Is that agreed? Agreed. At today's meeting we will continue the work commenced yesterday of hearing oral presentations on the basis of submissions sought by the committee on adult literacy. The committee was pleased with the response received and is grateful to those who submitted written submissions. Copies of all the submissions have been circulated to members.

I am delighted to extend a warm welcome to the representatives of the Local Authority National Partnership Advisory Group, the "Returning to Learning" group at Dublin City Council, the Church of Scientology Mission in Dublin, and Young Learning Limited. The first part of this meeting will be taken up with five-minute presentations from each of the groups here. Each presentation should highlight the main points of the written submissions. Because of the number of organisations to be heard today, I ask each organisation to stick to a maximum of five minutes in making their presentations. Once the presentations have been completed, the question and answer session of approximately 55 minutes will follow. I am sure members will have a number of questions to pose on various aspects.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on Mr. Matt Merrigan to make a presentation on behalf of the Local Authority National Partnership Advisory Group, LANPAG.

Mr. Matt Merrigan

I am joined by Mr. Ned O'Connor, county manager, South Tipperary County Council and a member of LANPAG. I thank the committee for its invitation. LANPAG deals with the workplace partnership between trade unions and local authority employers representing both sides. It has joint chairs, both employers and trade unions. The group was set up in 1999-2000 under chapter 10 of Partnership 2000 and is promulgating workplace partnership within the local authority sector.

The return to learning scheme arose from a discussion at the national committee regarding how to deal with the issue of education lapse among people who are mainly employed outdoor groups represented by SIPTU throughout the sector. Funding was made available by the national committee to run a number of pilot projects with the assistance of NALA and other groups and develop them in a national setting. Their success following a proper evaluation conducted internally within the organisations made the decision easy for LANPAG to extend the scheme on a national basis. Funding has been received from the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Education and Science to deal with the education deficit within the local authority workforce. To date, almost 1,300 have gone through the return to learning programmes and we have projected that 2,500 will take up the next initiative on return to learning.

A number of phases are involved in this issue. The first is basic literacy and numeracy, the second is personal development through individual plans developed by the local authorities in consultation with the staff members and the third is integration with the training initiatives being mainstreamed within the local authority sector. The issue for the employer has been securing the participation of staff. The concept that people who have literacy problems do not come forward has been proved a myth within the local authority sector. Massive numbers of applications have been made for the various programmes we have under way within the sector. Staff must be offered a safe and supportive environment where, at all levels within the management structure, employees feel safe about going back to school having left the education sector many years previously. The evaluation reports show that they have major difficulties going back into that environment. The third issue for both management and ourselves is maintaining the operations of the local authorities within working hours.

I compliment and thank a number of organisations, including the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Education and Science for providing the necessary seed funding and ongoing funding to address this issue; local authority managers and line managers who have made staff available and altered the system; and our workplace facilitators and the VEC adult literacy tutors who have made this possible. According to the evaluation we have carried out, three major gains have been identified. The first is on the job in terms of people carrying out their roles and functions and the enormous benefits in percentage gains for the employer. The customers of the local authorities also benefit. The local authorities' role is to serve them and customers can deal directly with front line staff, which is an enormous plus. Most importantly, the individuals involved in this exercise can go into domestic and social situations and not feel embarrassed. They can deal with their own children and spouses regarding issues. Mr. O'Connor mentioned issues such as the doing the driver theory test, opening bank accounts and other actions which most people take for granted. We hold a formal presentation at the end of the classes and the testimonials of the individuals involved in this process are heartening.

I thank the committee for its support for this concept. We are seeking to mainstream the programme and have made submissions to the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Education and Science regarding ongoing funding. This presents an opportunity for staff and the employer and it falls in line with Government policy on lifelong learning and people accessing mainstream education.

Ms Bernadette Sproule

I thank the committee for this opportunity to discuss the area of workplace learning. We in the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee have been working in partnership with Dublin City Council, DCC, in the past three and a half years in providing return to learning programmes for DCC staff. Return to learning is an 80-hour programme of communications, numeracy and basic computer skills provided for mainly general operative staff during working hours. The focus of this presentation will be to highlight the issues raised in the submission the committee received. I will mention the benefits of workplace learning, why it works so well and what needs to be done to support it.

Working in partnership with the city council has been invaluable in the success of the programme. It has enabled CDVEC to reach more adults with literacy needs. It has allowed DCC to provide literacy training independent of the general training delivery of the organisation and, therefore, in a more confidential and less threatening manner. The international adult literacy survey of 2000 showed Ireland near the bottom of the list of countries surveyed in terms of literacy levels with 25% of the population performing at the lowest level, which is level 1. These results led to a very significant increase in spending on adult literacy provision. Within CDVEC our numbers have increased about fivefold in the intervening years.

Approximately one third of our learners across the city in 2004 were men and 44% were in paid employment. The great majority of these men are under 40 years of age. Generally we find it difficult to reach older men. People employed in low skill, low paid jobs need to be able to improve their skills as they are the most vulnerable workers within a changing economy. Most of them are not involved in basic skills programmes. The return to learning programme enables us to reach more of this group. Overall 350 people came forward for the programme and a further 120 came looking for information on other training options. To date 108 participants, 105 men and three women, have taken part. Of the 36 participants in 2004, all had left school by 16 years of age, 28 having left school by 14 years of age while 70% were aged between 40 and 59 years of age, with 9% over 60 years. Most of these participants had no idea where to go to get help with reading and writing and had not thought of a return to education as an option for them. They did not have the confidence to apply for other training in DCC and were ashamed of admitting that they had low skills.

As a result of the programme, much has changed for these men and women. They have increased their levels of competency in spelling, reading and maths. As a result, they are more likely to take on tasks requiring the use of these skills both in work and in their family and community. Their levels of confidence and self-esteem have risen and promotional opportunities and further training within DCC are considered attainable. The sense of shame associated with poor skills has reduced and they are more willing to look for help. DCC is pleased to see these outcomes as it wants to spread training and promotional opportunities as equally as possible across the organisation. It has also become more sensitive to literacy issues affecting the organisation as a whole.

To date 99 people have gone on to further courses in four CDVEC adult education and read and write centres in their own time. Another 20 DCC staff became interested in education through the promotion of the programme and are also taking courses in these centres. To date eight people have achieved a full FETAC certificate and 20 more have submitted at least one module. This shows what a motivator the return to learning programme can be in terms of engaging adults who were often disaffected with the education system.

There are also considerable spin-offs in terms of family and community. Participants feel more comfortable in helping their children with homework. The ability to read a bedtime story to a child was a major breakthrough for some. Some family members have become interested in education also.

A course offered in the workplace is likely to reach a group of learners who will not access education in the community for a number of reasons. I have mentioned the feeling of shame which leads to unwillingness to approach anyone for assistance. Under the return to learning programme, the co-ordinator is available on work premises and confidentiality is ensured. Fundamental to the success of the project is that classes take place during working hours, something which I cannot stress enough. Many employees work shifts and classes in the community would be of no use to them. Also, they often have family responsibilities which would prevent them from attending regular classes. Many men are caring for children in the evenings while their partners work part-time jobs. People are also tired after a day's work and concentration is difficult.

Tutors have remarked on the high level of concentration and dedication of participants and their good attendance and punctuality. The drop-out rate in community-based provision is 50% while in the workplace it is 13%. Many learners in the community can attend reading and writing classes for only two hours per week. Return to learning provides four hours per week for 20 weeks and progress can be much quicker. Participants really appreciate the commitment the city council is making to their education and this adds to their motivation to complete the course. The annual awards ceremony held in the Mansion House is an enjoyable occasion and allows many men to speak about their experiences and to express their appreciation in a way unimaginable for them before joining the programme.

What needs to be done? Return to learning-type programmes should be available during working hours to all employees in public and private companies wishing to improve their basic skills; the Government should provide practical support for employers to encourage them to do this and in that regard an awareness-raising campaign is needed; there is a need for long-term commitment to the programmes in order that all staff can benefit and quality of provision can develop; where feasible, workplace learning co-ordinators with expertise in adult learning should be employed on a contract basis within companies; co-ordination of workplace learning is needed between agencies such as the VECs and FÁS and between these agencies and the employers and unions leading to a common approach in terms of quality and access; links should be established between companies and local literacy providers and other community-based learning centres; those close to retirement should be targeted for workplace learning basic skills programmes, a quality of life issue; ESOL provision should be provided for employees with language needs; community-based adult educational guidance services should be available for all adults and companies should ensure employees have access to these services. Training for tutors is also important.

The experience of City of Dublin VEC in working with Dublin City Council on this programme has been very positive in many ways. It could not have worked so well without the commitment of DCC and its staff. We believe the workplace is an essential element of literacy provision if we are to reach the majority of workers with basic skills needs. This kind of provision should be supported in every possible way.

Mr. Gerard Ryan

I thank the joint committee for the invitation to attend. I will cut straight to the chase. According to the National Adult Literacy Agency, 25% of the adult population have poor literacy skills and an additional 30% can cope with only simple reading. That means that 55% of the adult population of Ireland have poor or no literacy skills. Listed as the number one priority on the joint committee's list is the prioritisation of those with the lowest literacy levels. Who are they? I suggest they are prison inmates, those who leave school prior to the legal school-leaving age, those raised in an environment where education is not valued or esteemed, those cognitively impaired, the homeless, destitute and those with somewhat chaotic lives, and the long-term unemployed. There is a wide range of communities involved.

We must look for innovative ways to reach out to those who need services. Anyone with experience of the penal or judicial system cannot but be struck by the general lack of education in the system. The prison adult literacy survey 2003 carried out on behalf of the Irish Prison Service found that 92.6% of prisoners surveyed had left school before 16 years of age. This conclusion was supported by the University of Galway survey carried out in 2000 which found that 31% of prison inmates surveyed had not continued beyond primary school level and 84% had not completed second level education. The Hawkins and Lishner study in 1987 and many others illustrate a clear association between poor academic achievement and anti-social behaviour. A number of things are happening.

The prison system, regardless of what action is taken, is not working. Perhaps the joint committee would consider the suggestion that as part of his or her prison sentence each prisoner should become demonstrably literate and numerate before release. I believe that would assist prisoners on the road to becoming law-abiding citizens. A link has been identified between those who leave school prior to the legal school-leaving age and those raised in an environment wherein education is not esteemed.

I was born and raised in a working class area and continue to live there. In many parts of that area education is not esteemed, as illustrated by the number of students who left school early and ended up in prison and so on. The carrot and stick approach often works in this regard. We must provide incentives to ensure parents send their children to school, thereby fulfilling their parental responsibilities. This could be done by Government providing that parents who do not ensure their children attend school to be educated will have their social welfare benefits reviewed as a result. We must create a value for education among people in these areas who view a life of crime as being of greater value. We must also highlight the lack of value of uneducated social sink fodder, the long-term prospects of illiterate people.

Ireland has moved from being a primary producing agrarian society to a tertiary society of knowledge and expertise. There is no future in the economic workplace for illiterate people. We must look for innovative ways to tackle this problem. It is absurd that many of our people are long-term unemployed. Approximately 40,000 Polish people who came to Ireland during the past year had no trouble finding employment. It is clear then that a large proportion of those deemed long-term unemployed are either unable to work or lack the skills to do so. We must address that issue even if that means being tough. We must tell these people the State will not fund deliberate failure but will fund all their efforts to improve their status in life. The Government should refuse to continue to treat those who have become social welfare addicts.

We must establish an adult literacy agency that has real teeth, liaises with the Departments of Social, Community and Family Affairs, Education and Science and the Revenue Commissioners and has the power to offer incentives.

Chairman

I call Mr. John Kerins, managing director of Neuron Learning Limited.

Mr. John Kerins

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak on literacy for adults, a key issue for the country and future generations. We all understand the problems and implications and I am here to show what I believe could be the solutions.

Language and reading research has clearly identified the skills one needs to read. We also know that in the past ten years or so, neuro-science research has shown us the most effective way to learn. The question for us is whether we are ready to put what is required into place to eradicate the scourge of illiteracy or ready to set the goal to achieve this.

There are four general reading skills people must have to enable them become effective readers. First, they must have good listening accuracy. This means oral language skills are a prerequisite for reading. Without that foundation, it is difficult to read. Second, they must have good phonemic awareness, namely, recognition of the basic sounds of the English language. Third, they must be able to use phonemes in the context of what we call phonological fluency. Research shows if a person has not got good phonics, it is a sure sign that he or she cannot read. Fourth, people must understand language structures. They need to understand the difference between tenses, future and past, singular and plural and the little morphemes at the starts and ends of words and what they mean. Later on they must understand things such as comprehension, inference logic etc.

Reading skills are quite defined and measurable. In addition to these, poor readers have issues of cognitive skills in which they may be deficient. These must be blended with their reading skills and they must work on matters such as short-term working memory and attention. Most teachers agree that poor readers lack attention skills. It is something of a chicken and egg situation. They need to be able to process information speedily in a visual and auditory way and they need a sense of sequencing and getting things in order. This is essential for language. Does the man bite the dog or the dog bite the man? It is essential for the reader to get information in the right order.

Knowing all this, the next challenge is to discover the best way for people to learn. The best way is the fast way. Learning must be frequent, intensive and adapted to the skills of the individual on an overall basis and on the day. There may be other issues involved on a day and one must be able to adopt a course accordingly. The teacher must work simultaneously on the cognitive skills because otherwise whatever language skills are imparted can be forgotten, for example, the following week. There must also be timely motivation. After the initial euphoria of starting a course, the motivation must be maintained to keep the learner on a steady path to success.

A good reading programme must incorporate these critical aspects and we must have certain tools and methods to put into place. First, we must use technology. We need to use the millions of computers available. They deliver an engaging learning experience for students, adults, children or whoever. They can also capture all the data the student is dealing with and build up a profile of the student's strengths and weaknesses. We can then, accordingly, work with them on an individual basis. Second, we need highly trained teachers who are experienced and trained in reading skills, not necessarily English skills, but good old-fashioned reading skills such as phonics. Third, we need a scientific approach. We need to go out, measure what is happening and approach it in a steady way. Reading is a gift, but science can help people to get there.

As legislators, administrators or teachers, we can get value for money and measurable results. We need the will to tackle this scourge of our society. We should set a goal for ourselves to get rid of illiteracy in five years and in that way marshal our resources properly to do so. I suggest two simple ways to do this. First, we should make resources available to adult learners, any time and any place. That is appropriate to those in the workforce also who should have access to the resources. Second, we need to put a scheme in place for schoolchildren. For example, we could take all eight-year-old children and put them through a reading programme, screen them and teach them. Like fluoride in our water, their reading would be at the right level. This must be done on a national basis, must set a standard and must be given the necessary resources.

I thank the committee for its attention and hope we can work together to eradicate this terrible problem.

Chairman

I thank all those who have made presentations. We will now have a question and answer session.

Deputy Enright

I welcome the members of the various delegations. I will put my questions in the order of those who spoke. I am curious as to how Mr. Merrigan accesses the people with whom he works. Do they volunteer themselves or does somebody in each local authority seek out people? Where are the classes conducted, on local authority premises or elsewhere?

I was interested in Ms Sproule's list of what needs to be done. The importance of computer literacy was mentioned yesterday and somebody said that a person without computer skills is almost considered illiterate. Should computer skills be included in the "what needs to be done" list or are they already being considered? I was also interested to hear from her that only one third of the learners she dealt with in 2004 were women. I think she said that only three of the participants in the Return to Learning programme were women. Is that because of male-female numbers working in the local authorities?

Mr. Ryan spoke about the stick and carrot. His proposals in terms of the prison system appear to be all stick and very little carrot. There are more penalties now, through the National Educational Welfare Board, for parents who do not send their children to school. The board is only up and running a short time, but I am optimistic that it will eventually achieve what it wants to achieve without having to be quite so draconian in its method.

Mr. Kerins spoke about getting rid of illiteracy within five years, but did not deal with how we get people to access programmes. That aim could be achieved if every person came for help of their own volition. However, part of the problem is getting people to volunteer and participate in the programmes. Does Mr. Kerins have any solution to offer in that regard? I was interested in his presentation and wonder whether his programme has been rolled out in Ireland or whether there has been any liaison with the Department of Education and Science. Has it expressed any views on what he offers?

Deputy Gogarty

I will begin with Mr. Merrigan. In many ways his presentation was the most straightforward, in the sense that the main message was the need for additional funding. Are there two or three areas towards which the funding needs to be specifically targeted, for example, the issues of child care and transport costs which were raised yesterday? These issues may not arise in the workplace, particularly where education takes place during working hours or just before or after work or during lunchtime.

Ms Sproule made a similar presentation and it is great to see the work being done by each of the local authorities. She mentioned learning during working hours and I would like some elaboration. She mentioned that those who need workplace learning are those in low skilled low paid jobs. Some adults' literary skills are so low that they cannot get jobs in the first place. I ask Ms Sproule for examples of the types of workplaces with low paid employees who can succeed with workplace programmes. I imagine it will work in organisations that are unionised and in public bodies. However what about construction sites, for example? I am not saying everyone on a construction site is illiterate. However, the workplace is somewhat less defined for construction workers, office cleaners etc. A considerable percentage of workers in those fields would have literacy problems. Is it possible to reach out to the people concerned through the workplace? While Ms Sproule and Mr. Merrigan focused on the workplace have they any additional comments to make on reaching out to the people who have such a disadvantage that they cannot even get a low paid job?

Mr. Ryan made a very interesting presentation, which referred to a matter my party has highlighted for some time, the general investment in education particularly at primary level to ensure people do not leave school without being able to read or write properly. The one in seven who leave primary school without being able to read and write will not be able to complete their junior certificate and leaving certificate. Mr. Ryan stated that adult illiteracy represents a serious indictment of the education system. The Church of Scientology believes no citizen should be permitted to leave primary school without a facility in literacy and numeracy. Would this be practicable? Would it be feasible to stop child benefit in families with drug problems where the parents might be continually stoned out?

Mr. Ryan said he came from a poor family where education was valued. We now have third generation poor families with parents who do not value education and do not care what television programmes their children watch. The only education the children from such families get is at school and we have insufficient education welfare officers to ensure they get to school. While acknowledging it is the parents' responsibility to send their children to school, why does Mr. Ryan believe parents who do not send their children to school are not disadvantaged or victims? How can we force them to send their children to school if they have such social problems that they do not realise the value of education? How far would the Church of Scientology go in this regard?

I thank Mr. Kerins for the information on the scientific learning programme. The Time magazine article seemed to give an objective analysis. A few years ago a pilot programme called “wired for learning” for primary schools was run through IBM. It provided computers and software for schools to enable them to interact with parents and each other. I regarded it as having been somewhat of a failure as the cultural imposition of middle America did not fit in with Ireland in the sense that while people were grateful to have the computers and software they did not use these in the way the Americans would have done. How do the products mentioned by Mr. Kerins fit into an Irish cultural setting? I presume the language issues would be addressed.

The Time article states the Chicago public school system is running a pilot project, but the cost is $2,500. Does Mr. Kerins believe the Department of Education and Science should fund this in every school or would Neuron Learning Limited be one of a number of bidders? For example, Fast ForWord seems to have worked well for children with central auditory processing disorders. Does Mr. Kerins believe his product should be focused on schoolchildren or adults who have particular difficulties with language learning or should it be a general catchall? It could also be argued that the Irish system works very well for the majority of people although it is a sin and a shame that some people are falling behind. Does Mr. Kerins believe something is wrong with a system which produces people with excellent reading and writing skills or do we need something different for the so-called stragglers?

Deputy Hoctor

I welcome the various bodies that gave us very enlightening presentations. We will consider their submissions carefully when the committee discusses the matter further. I acknowledge the presence of Ned O'Connor, the South Tipperary county manager. I would like to ask Ms Sproule about the local authority. From my experience on North Tipperary County Council and Nenagh Town Council I know that one of the meeting points of the public and local authorities is in the search for housing. The application form must be completed and when people are housed local authorities now admirably prepare people as tenants to enter a new social housing development. How best to run the family home and all the other aspects of living are addressed, which is an enormous help to people. The tenant participation programmes are excellent and represent a very valuable meeting point for the local authority and the person who may be detected as needing literacy and numeracy assistance. I ask Ms Sproule to relay her own personal experience in this regard.

I ask Mr. Ryan to outline the connection of the Church of Scientology with adult literacy. I am familiar with the recruitment multiple-choice questionnaires which the Church of Scientology uses to gain additional members. It is presumed that people are well able to read it as it contains many questions in small print. If the Church of Scientology is engaged in helping people with adult literacy how can it do that? I do not believe it should be through the multiple-choice system.

I also welcome Mr. Kerins of Neuron Learning Limited and was interested in hearing his perspective on this matter. I would like to hear his comments on dyslexia and his experience of the incidence of dyslexia in the work he does.

Senator Feeney

I welcome the delegates and thank them for their presentations. A whole world is opened to adults who return to education particularly the ones suffering from literacy problems. Ms Sproule stated that one third of the participants in her courses were men under 40. Initially I thought that was great because those under 40 are only babies. Of the 36 participants in 2004, I take it that the majority were men. I believe Deputy Enright might have asked whether this is because fewer women than men work in Dublin City Council or because women are shyer at coming forward about their problems. Perhaps we are better bluffers than men and seem to be able to get through it better than men. Are all the people she mentioned employees of Dublin City Council? What is the total workforce of the council?

I thank Mr. Ryan for his presentation. I disagree with his comments about those he considers to be long-term unemployed. I do not agree that a certain percentage of people can continue to be classified as long-term unemployed. Such people would have existed some years ago, but that is no longer the case.

Deputy Gogarty has already asked Mr. Ryan about an issue I would like to raise. Some 92% of those surveyed left school before the age of 16 years. There are great links between poor academic levels and anti-social behaviour. It has been suggested that the relevant authorities should withhold one's children's allowance if one does not make sure that one's children are in school. As a mother of four, I find it hard to know what my children are doing all the time, even if they say they are going somewhere. I often say I will stand at the gate and watch them cross the road. There are times when I cannot believe anything they tell me. I find it difficult to get my head around the arguments in favour of the measure that has been recommended by Mr. Ryan. If one applies such a system to people from lower socio-economic backgrounds, one will cut off whatever lifeline they have. If the State imposes such a measure, people will say that the better-off in society — regardless of whether Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Progressive Democrats, the Labour Party or the Green Party is in power — are using it as a stick to beat the less well-off. People will argue that such an approach is typical of a nanny state that thinks it knows the best way to treat people when they are not behaving in accordance with social norms. I would like to hear Mr. Ryan's views on this. I am not sure that his proposal represents the best solution.

I was very interested in Mr. Kerins's presentation. I loved the extensive literature and other material he supplied to the joint committee. I would like to know how much it would cost someone to get on the Neuron Learning programme. Who is targeted by the programme? Does Neuron Learning target participants and clients or does it prefer to try to get companies to send their people to it? I did not have time to read all of Mr. Kerins's material. How long has Neuron Learning been in Ireland? Who owns the company? I glanced at the case study, which comes from the United States. I did not see any information about anybody who has participated in the programme in Ireland.

Deputy O’Sullivan

I apologise for my late arrival. I had to return to my constituency last night after attending all of yesterday's meeting. I was not here for the various presentations this morning because I was making my way back to Dublin.

I would like to ask some questions which arise from some of the issues we discussed yesterday. I am interested in the co-ordination of services. The workplace literacy schemes are wonderful because they reach people who otherwise would not be reached. The return to education scheme is organised by FÁS, separately to the partnerships. It is obvious that the VECs do most of the literacy work. How is it envisaged that the various workplace schemes can be co-ordinated? How can the groups work with the other bodies to provide follow-up services? If a person on a community employment scheme moves on and finds a job, how can we be sure that the progress he or she has made under a return to education scheme is followed up in the workplace? We need to make sure we reach out to families, particularly those which are hardest to reach. We spoke yesterday about how difficult it is to reach those who need literacy schemes. Is it possible, under the workplace schemes, to move beyond the worker to the worker's family, some of whose members may also have literacy problems? It is important to break the cycle of disadvantage, particularly educational disadvantage, which seems to continue over generations, as Deputy Gogarty said. A concerted holistic approach is needed if we are to break that cycle. I would be interested to hear a response.

I did not hear the suggestion that was made by the representatives of the Church of Scientology, but any proposal to take welfare benefits from people whose children live in poverty sets off alarm bells. Does Mr. Ryan agree that it is inevitable that children will suffer if we adopt his proposal? Should we not try to find more supportive ways of addressing issues of parental irresponsibility? We do not know what background problems the parents in question have suffered. Has Mr. Ryan considered the impact of his proposal on children?

Deputy Stanton

I am interested in the role of literacy and education in helping people to move out of poverty. The results of a survey published today indicate that Ireland has one of the highest levels of poverty in the western world. I refer to the difference between the rich and the poor in our society. I would like to ask a number of questions. Recent research in Britain has indicated that dyslexia is an emotional problem, rather than a problem caused by physical or other difficulties. Have the delegates seen that research? Do they have views on it? Have they come across the theory that children decide they will not read in order that they can gain attention? I have come across ideas of this nature in Adlerian psychology. It is suggested that the child's decision not to speak or not to read is psychological rather than physical. Perhaps the delegations have some views on the matter.

Is Mr. Ryan's suggestion that people should be incarcerated in jails until they learn how to read or write a serious one? Is he really serious about this? Is he seriously proposing that we should tell people they will be kept in jail as prisoners until they learn how to read and write, regardless of how long it takes? I cannot agree with such an appalling suggestion. If I understand Mr. Ryan correctly, he proposes that people who are unable to read and write through no fault of their own, which is a punishment or sentence in itself, should be kept in jail. He has also argued that such people should be denied all State funding or support. On what are they supposed to live? How are they supposed to eat or put roofs over their heads? Is it really a serious proposal? I think it is totally daft.

Chairman

I invite our guests to respond in the order in which they originally spoke.

Mr. Merrigan

I will answer the members' questions in the order in which they were asked. I thank Deputies and Senators for their questions. The various schemes offered by the Local Authority National Partnership Advisory Group are promoted in workplaces, in conjunction with the VECs. We explain what is on offer and encourage people to get involved. There is no point in preparing leaflets because there is a real problem. We find that verbal communication is probably the best way to get our message across. People do come forward on foot of such efforts. We have disproved the middle-class myth that people with literacy problems do not put up their hands and ask for assistance. We use local VEC or local authority premises, rather than external premises, to cut down on costs.

The Local Authority National Partnership Advisory Group allocates a grant of €4,500, which is not an extraordinary amount of money, per class. Co-funding is received from each local authority. We estimate that the overall annual cost of providing a class for between eight and ten people is approximately €7,500 or €8,000. It is a small investment for a massive return. I was also asked about the request for additional funding. As far as we are concerned, what has happened has happened. We want to move forward in respect of this issue. A member of the committee asked me about specific targeting in certain areas. We know where to find the workforces which need to be targeted. We are not just working in local authorities — we are also working in the health service under the workplace partnership system. We can help more people within the health service.

I was also asked about child care and transport. Approximately 95% of the workers we are aiming to help in the local authority sector are male. It is fair to say that child care is not a significant problem. We have dealt with the transport cost issues in conjunction with local authorities, which have been quite flexible, particularly in rural Ireland, in covering the transport costs of people who come to a literacy centre.

Senator Feeney's question about the definition of the long-term employed links in with another issue. The Local Authority National Partnership Advisory Group is carrying out a unique pilot study with South Dublin County Council. FÁS, on our behalf, identified pockets of long-term unemployed in working class areas in the council area. LANPAG has agreed with the council that 1% of jobs, which amounts to six to 16 positions, will be made available for people who have been unemployed for more than three years. FÁS will carry out interviews and, having completed a training course, the people in question will be offered the going rate for jobs in the relevant areas. The purpose of the scheme is to break the poverty logjam evident in certain working class areas. This initiative, picked up from an innovative scheme in east Belfast and transferred here, will be piloted by LANPAG in conjunction with South Dublin County Council, FÁS and the trade unions in south Dublin.

The issue of co-ordination was also raised. The question of ownership does not arise in this context. As the VECs provide an excellent adult literacy service, there is no point in reinventing the wheel. The Local Authority National Partnership Advisory Group funds the programme and the VECs, with their excellent adult literacy tutors, run it on our behalf. There is no point establishing a separate organisation, particularly as our members who have attended courses run by adult literacy tutors have attested that they are excellent. In such circumstances, we support minimising costs and, for this reason, we contract the tutors and agree to pay them the going rate.

Incidentally, the key issue for us is throughput, which is, putting as many people as possible through the system and, in so doing, breaking the poverty logjam faced by those with low skills who lack career promotional opportunities in the local authority sector. If one breaks this logjam, the benefits transfer into the families of participants. This is what we are attempting to achieve. It is also necessary to persuade local authorities to take measures to create outlets for promotion and career development for the grades in question. This issue is being dealt with at national partnership level with local authority management.

Ms Sproule

Deputy Enright asked about the important issue of computer literacy which forms part of the return to learning programme. Computers are used in the programme. They are a good learning tool and the possibility of using them in learning is a major attraction, particularly for men. A person attending a literacy class may find it difficult to tell his or her friends or colleagues about it. It sounds much better to tell them one is attending a computer class and for this reason computers are a useful tool. The return to learning programmes would not operate as successfully if computers were not integrated in them.

I may have confused members with figures on the number of men participating in schemes. The overall literacy figures for the City of Dublin VEC show that of roughly 5,500 people who approached us in 2004, one third were men. We want to reach everybody equally — men, women and the various age groups — and are, therefore, conscious of the need to target men in particular areas. In Dublin City Council we have been working with general operative staff — mostly men — who tend to work in areas such as cleansing, housing and road maintenance, waterworks and lighting. This is the reason we are reaching so many men, although we want to reach different target groups.

On the question as to whether women are shyer than men, the opposite is the case. In the area of community education women come forward much more easily than men do. The reason for entering the workplace is to overcome this problem.

I do not represent the Dublin City Council but I understand its total work force is approximately 6,000.

Mr. Merrigan

There are 3,000 general operatives.

Ms Sproule

Already, approximately 350 members of the council workforce have come forward for interview.

As regards Deputy Gogarty's question, learning during working hours is important and fairly new to us. We have worked mainly with large companies, of which Dublin City Council is one of the largest. We have also done some work with CIE. While it is easier to get a group of people to attend a scheme during daytime working hours in companies with a large workforce, there is no reason we could not get a group together in smaller companies. In such circumstances, people could be referred to a local scheme or centre as tuition does not need to take place on the premises. A group of three or four, rather than a large group of eight, is also feasible. We have referred a number of people who have not done return to learning programmes to one-to-one provision.

As to how to reach those who cannot even get low paid work, we also work with many community employment schemes. We find that including literacy provision in CE schemes helps persuade people to attend literacy classes. This approach works very well. I have in mind a particular education focused CE scheme in the north-west inner city aimed at women who are particularly disadvantaged. Literacy is approached in various ways and the scheme works very well in that it involves a group of women who would not otherwise have attended a literacy class.

It is important to pay some form of extra allowance or expenses as a means of encouraging people to attend literacy classes. This applies in particular to those who could secure some part-time work if they chose not to attend a literacy class. It is not a matter of paying people to be educated but one of accepting that people's circumstances may be such that even the bus fare is a significant expense. The use of computer facilities in local areas has also been helpful in attracting people to attend classes.

Deputy Hoctor asked about the housing application form and preparing tenants who are about to be housed in social housing. I am not an employee of Dublin City Council and, as such, do not have direct personal experience of preparing tenants. The city council, however, has become more aware of the need to be sensitive to literacy issues generally and is examining the issues of plain English application forms and how to deal with customers. Some male council employees are also housing tenants. Dublin City Council is considering the possibility of training all staff in literacy sensitivity, a positive development from which the organisation has learned.

I work with the RAPID programme initiative in the south-west inner city and we find that working together as agencies has many benefits. For example, if Dublin City Council is preparing or working with tenants in a particular local authority housing scheme, it would be beneficial if it was to work with the VEC to integrate some literacy and basic education into its preparation programmes. The potential of agencies to work together and with the community is significant.

Deputy O'Sullivan asked about co-ordination and follow up. As I noted, some family members of participants in literacy schemes approach us as a result of increased awareness in the home. When men participating in the initiative discuss joining the local library or encourage their children to do so their families become interested. We do not have sufficient resources to follow up on all the families of participants but there would be significant potential to reach many more people if the required resources and structures were available. I referred to the importance of adult guidance generally and the ability to provide people with information.

The importance of the link between our literacy schemes and the city council and other businesses is that it creates a two way process in which people in businesses are able, with sensitivity, to refer people to literacy schemes, while literacy organisers can also provide on-site literacy awareness training to staff. Such links are, therefore, important.

A question was asked about dyslexia, an area in which I am not an expert. A proportion of those attending our courses have learning difficulties which may have been part of the reason they dropped out of school. The emotional aspect is, therefore, very important. Adults returning to education and re-engaging with learning must first overcome the fear of failure they experienced the first time around. Overcoming this fear and crossing the threshold of our centres is the biggest block people have. The first task, therefore, is to surmount this problem. Rather than looking at people's problems, one accentuates what they already know and encourages them to believe they can learn.

Mr. Ryan

Obviously, there was a fair amount of criticism of what I said and that is understandable. I wish to put my cards on the table. Our church supports a prison inmate reform programme called Criminon which is in use in over 1,000 prisons across the globe. We have extensive experience of what works in terms of reform for prison inmates. For example, in Mexico, Ensenada state prison has fully adopted the Criminon programme. The Mexican state transfers prisoners from other prisons to this one to get them sorted out and they are then released. When prison inmates have rehabilitated themselves, they are released.

I wish to put forward some ideas regarding incentives. The levels of illiteracy in the prison system are absolutely staggering. As I pointed out, over 92% of prison inmates have left school before the age of 16 years. That is a staggering figure. Whatever we are doing in the prison system is not working because the levels of recidivism and so on are extremely high. I wish to put forward some innovative ideas as to how we can incentivise people in the prison system where illiteracy and recidivism are endemic. Numerous studies have shown the correlation between lack of literacy skills, anti-social behaviour, crime and so on. We must do something about this. We have a large body of people in the prison system and we know that at least 70% of them will go out the door and come straight back in again because they do not have the skills to function as citizens. We are remiss in not offering incentives to these individuals to address the disabilities they have. We could offer them the incentive of staying in prison until they could read or write even if that were to happen before the end of their sentence. This is a carrot and stick approach.

I appreciate that what I say may not sound good. It may be perceived as draconian. We have found that in the prisons in which we have been involved this kind of thing works. In Mexican prisons we have handled murderers who have completely changed their lives. They are no longer criminals, nor are they involved in violence, drugs and so on. This has been achieved by providing incentives. When prisoners do something that is good, they are rewarded. If prisoners refuse to do something that is good for them and for society at large, against whom they have infringed, there is a penalty. I appreciate that this sounds very stark but surely what we are here to discuss is solutions that will work. We must find innovative ideas that will address the real problems.

On the question of social welfare, I appreciate that I should have worded what I said a lot better than I did. What I should have made clear is that it is not a question of somebody going on the mitch and then being told they will not get child benefit. The only future for illiterate individuals who have children is for them to gain literacy skills. It is our duty as citizens. We must do something about it if parents refuse to take responsibility for ensuring their offspring are doing something about their lives. There may be other issues involved such as drugs, violence and so on and these must be addressed. However, my point related to individuals who refuse to do anything about their situation.

We all have problems. I am sure that everyone in this room was not born with a silver spoon in his or her mouth. We have all come through hard times but we made a decision to do something about it. I referred to individuals who refuse point-blank to do anything about it. It is great if they are trying to do something about it and that should be rewarded. If necessary, we should increase children's allowance as an incentive to those individuals who are making efforts and trying to take responsibility for their families and society at large.

Our church sponsors over 476 literacy programmes in 56 countries around the globe. Literacy is a big feature of our church. It is part of our faith. We study a great deal of scripture. From our point of view, literacy is the means by which civilisation can continue to move on. Without literacy skills we would not have civilisation. It is as simple as that. We are trying to create a civilisation on Earth where there is no war or crime. Literacy is important to achieve this aim which is why it is such a prominent feature of the work we do.

We support a group called Applied Scholastics International, which has 96 schools around the globe that specifically teach literacy skills and so on. Last year we taught every teacher in Ghana how to improve the literacy skills of their pupils, which will, I hope, have a knock-on effect. We bore all the cost. It is a big issue with us and we are most interested in this subject.

I appreciate that some of the things I said are controversial but the issue is a serious one. We must seek innovative ideas as the current thinking is not working. With the greatest respect to my two colleagues, in the main they are working with people who are already in the workplace. Many of the communities I have listed that have a problem with literacy are not in the workplace, namely, the Traveller community, prison inmates, the long-term unemployed and so on. We must examine how we will address the problem of those groups that are not in the workplace. We must begin to look at ideas outside of the box. I apologise if I offended anybody as that was not my intention.

Mr. Kerins

I will answer the questions in the order in which they were asked.

Deputy Enright asked about adult participation. We deal with the issue as educators, whereby we try to give the participants access to learning and reading and then ensure that they have the internal motivation to succeed. We help them along the way in terms of affording them a very engaging experience. We give them a sense that they have control over their own destinies in order that they can see what progress they are making and understand that the efforts they make result in such progress. We build in a great deal of internal motivation into our system and method of reading.

We rolled out our programme in Cork in April. We have, in broad terms, private students, both adults and kids. The idea is that we would train teachers and have a centre of excellence. We use speech and language therapists to analyse the results and help us with the more difficult cases. We want to develop our programme in a pretty systematic and comprehensive way. We have had preliminary discussions with the Department of Education and Science. The programme is of interest to the Department because it is of great assistance to teachers in delivering methods to read. It can be a very cost-effective solution in schools. It represents a much more engaging experience for the children than simply being shown flash cards, etc. There is the advantage of having a pretty intense delivery to the students, with measurable results. We can see how they are progressing day by day.

On the US-Ireland aspect, there are strong similarities between Irish and American schools in general in terms of how they are set up, classes and the curriculum. Teaching reading is helping children to access the curriculum. We are not introducing children to an American curriculum but helping them to process information more effectively in order that they can keep up with their own classmates at school. Some of the content is quite American. It is a case of "gasoline" versus "petrol" but it is the parents who have difficulties with this rather than the children. The latter hear such terminology every day, be it on "The Simpsons", in movies or elsewhere. They do not have any difficulty with it. There are no structural difficulties arising as a result of the difference between American English and Irish English.

On the question of whether the method is specifically for children who require intervention or for all children, I suggest that it is required for both. When kids are approximately eight or nine, they suddenly realise that whatever compensation strategies they have no longer work because of the burden of the books when reading, the reduction in the number of context clues and the reduction in individual tuition. The motivation afforded by having one teacher is no longer present when they enter second level. Therefore, many children need intervention separate from the classroom. It would be better to put all eight year olds through a reading programme like this on a standard basis, whereby they could be assessed objectively. This is done in 65 schools in the Philadelphia school district. Everybody is put through the programme on the basis that even if they do not need the reading skills, they certainly need to develop cognitive skills. Attention is an important skill, as is memory, which we can all improve. The children's processing and sequencing skills can be improved.

The difficulty with reading in schools is that the identification of poor readers is a somewhat haphazard. There is no standard definition. Educational psychologists' reports vary in their specifics. Usually, they will not identify the symptoms and the causes. They just refer, for example, to "borderline dyslexia". Ten children with dyslexia will all be very different. One might have poor listening skills and will not catch what is being said. He or she may not be able to translate or be poor at language interreading. For example, if the b's and d's mean nothing to him in terms of oral language, he will not recognise them on the page because they have no significance for him. Other kids may have the sounds but not the phonics. They cannot play around with the words and have to struggle for them every time they use them. As other children will have a poor auditory and working memory, they will read literally. By the time they get to the end of the page they have forgotten what was on it. They cannot determine the context. This is a big issue for kids and results in their missing the big picture. Poor comprehension is another factor. They might not understand the difference between "the fish swim" and "the fish swims" or, if asked what is under the table, they might point to a person. They might not understand that words ending in "ed", for example, are in the past tense. They might not have a pattern which we automatically use to decode things.

The type of analysis that can be used in an assessment is similar to taking a snapshot. One must screen people over a long period in different circumstances because they could be great one day and not so great the next. Dyslexia and poor reading skills overlap but there is an emotional aspect to dyslexia. Research now proves that the brains of dyslexic people simply do not fire up in the language areas as do those of normal readers. There is something in the brain that prevents them from reading. This is scientifically proven. If a child is struggling with Irish, I would probably see that he is dyslexic and ascertain whether he could get an exemption. It is a handy way out. This can be abused. However, the fundamental problem exists for dyslexic people. It is not a life sentence. The brain is a muscle which can be exercised and, like any other muscle, it gets better with exercise. This is proven worldwide. Studies have shown that a larger part of the brain of a London taxi driver is devoted to memory than is the case with anybody else, yet these drivers only start learning for the "knowledge" test when they are 18. It is not beyond all of us.

A professor talking about Alzheimer's disease in The Irish Times today says that the trick is to use one’s brain. Most people are brain dead after the age of 16 years. If one is an illiterate adult, one will not use one’s cognitive skills because one does not want to get involved in something one does not like.

On the question of whether we target people, we do not really do so; most people come to us having heard about our service by word of mouth. They realise that their children have a difficulty, regardless of whether they are told this officially. We do get adult learners, people who want to make a transition from one job to another, people who cannot study efficiently for exams or do exam questions. Multiple choice questions serve as a classic example in that there is so much reading involved that one might not be able to get through the paper on time. We get illiterate people who have never read before. It is hard work for them and there is no miracle cure. However, if they are willing to come in and do the work, and if they have the motivation, they will succeed.

Deputy Gogarty

I thank Mr. Matt Merrigan and Ms Bernadette Sproule. I have no further comments on their contributions. I have one or two comments for Mr. Gerard Ryan and Mr. John Kerins.

On the point about language, I disagree with the use of words such as "gasoline". I know that "Sabrina, the Teenage Witch" is on television and that one could argue that all children will learn to speak as they do on that programme. One might say, "So what", but this is the country that gave us books such as Dubliners, The Snapper and To School Through the Fields. It gave us voices such as those of Deputy Michael Ring, Ross O’Carroll-Kelly and even the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, whose accent is distinctive. There is already too much homogenisation of language in Ireland, through the medium of television, without having distinctively Irish English further suppressed through cultural imposition. In many ways, the software, while it has its intrinsic value, needs to be adapted for the Irish market. Perhaps this will be considered.

The Church of Scientology may receive some publicity from being so controversial because I saw a member of the media scribbling furiously while Mr. Ryan was making his contribution. I thank him for being so controversial because, without someone making a statement that will get a reaction, there will not be proper debate. In my heart I fully agree with that approach. The trouble is where to draw the line. What is freedom? When a person is imprisoned, freedoms are denied. However, everyone has the right to be a total dosser as he or she chooses. People who are imprisoned serve their time as a payment of debt to society against which they have infringed. In many ways, society has infringed against such individuals from their first formative years in order that they find themselves in this position. We should be doing everything possible to help reverse that trend.

Politicians should be put in prison and not let out until they realise what causes poverty and inequality and why they are always looking to the next election rather than planning for ten years into the future. We always pay lip service to the poor but in reality we keep voters' susceptibilities in mind in determining matters of social change. We worry lest we offend the so-called middle class vote. That is the main issue. I am not an apologist for anyone involved in crime. One must be tough on crime but one should also be tough on its causes.

I cannot fail to record my absolute opposition to some of the measures being proposed, even though the knee-jerk reaction demands that something must be done, with which I agree. As regards taking something positive from what has been said, I fully agree that, in terms of children's allowance, for example, an additional education allowance should be paid to parents of children who send them to school and whose attendance is recorded. That is something I will bring back to my party. It is a positive suggestion.

Sitting suspended at 11.30 a.m. and resumed at 11.50 a.m.

Chairman

The joint committee thanks all those who sent written submissions as well as the groups attending this session on adult literacy. Copies of all the submissions have been circulated.

I am delighted to extend a warm welcome to Cúram, the Dyslexia Association of Ireland, the Career Path for Dyslexia, the Exchange House Travellers Service and the Bray Adult Education Network. This part of the meeting will consist of five minute presentations by each of the groups, with each group highlighting the main points in its written submission. I ask each representative group to speak for a total period of five minutes and once all the presentations have been completed a question and answer session lasting approximately 65 minutes will follow. I am sure members will have questions on aspects of the presentations, which I will bank and then put to the representative groups for their response.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

As I understand the Exchange House Travellers Service has another appointment, I call on Ms Helen Campbell to make the presentation on its behalf.

Ms Helen Campbell

I thank the joint committee for affording Exchange House Travellers Service the opportunity to make a presentation on adult literacy. In the written submission I have given details of the organisation, the people with whom we work and the diverse programmes that we run. One third of our staff is comprised of Travellers, and Exchange House sees itself as a learning organisation where every chance to provide staff with learning opportunities is utilised. I have outlined the support from Departments for this aspiration.

It has been noticeable that the concentration on training has generated a critical reflective approach to education and training among staff and has led to the discourse or jargon of learning, education and training becoming mainstream in the organisation. That is one of the factors that has led Exchange House to being committed to setting up a centre of education and development for Travellers when we move to new premises.

We have two part-time adult literacy tutors funded by the VEC who work mainly with the women on the FÁS programme. Half of this group are at the most basic level of literacy, unable to read or write his or her own name. The majority of clients of the other services offered by Exchange House have low levels of literacy but for a variety of reasons are not engaged in literacy programmes. Special initiatives and strategies are needed to motivate and engage hard to reach clients in literacy learning.

The statistics for literacy levels in the Traveller community are stark. Some 80% of Travellers have basic or no literacy skills. Based on our experience the following issues have emerged as relevant. Adult literacy education takes place most effectively when it is part of an overall integrated strategy at local, community and agency level. Community based organisations such as ours have a unique role to play in this regard, providing a familiar face as well as an accessible and user friendly environment in which participants can progress along a number of intersecting routes, education, personal development, training, goal setting and employment. We can provide not only a range of formal or informal programmes but also an environment whereby what we call waiting room strategies can be utilised, such as having appropriate reading material with high visual content, for example the RTE Guide, when people are waiting to see a social worker. The provision of computer facilities to practise for the driver theory test is another example of this type of strategy which is particularly popular with men. In the move from a primarily oral culture, literacy skills are critical in giving Travellers the confidence to engage proactively with the challenges facing them. Adult literacy needs to be seen in the broader context of the information society.

Taking account of the issues I have outlined and our experience in providing basic adult education services for Travellers, we make the following recommendations. We recommend the establishment of a national adult literacy strategy specifically for the Traveller community, financed from a Department of Education and Science budget. This would lead to a more cohesive strategic approach, with the involvement of all Traveller organisations and community groups, which is more likely to result in an approach relevant to Travellers. Such a dedicated education budget would also allow for the development of materials which could be accessible and user friendly to Travellers, and could also include the training of Traveller peer educators.

We recommend that an adult literacy co-ordinator be established specifically for Travellers in areas with a high Traveller population, which would facilitate the development of a coherent local strategy. Moreover, a mechanism should be put in place to enable the vocational education committees to pay a training allowance for adult education programmes. The payment of a training allowance is the main incentive which facilitates the involvement of many adult learners, not only members of the Traveller community. It is becoming increasingly difficult to establish a basic education programme which is not specifically linked to job preparation. However, many women in marginalised communities do not wish or will not be in a position to engage in employment in the immediate future because they have other unpaid duties such as home-making, child rearing and care of the sick and elderly in their communities.

The lack of literacy skills, increasingly in regard to the use of information technology, is a major contributor to social exclusion. The knock-on effects of an improvement in adult literacy skills among children in a family have been well documented. Improving adult literacy among Travellers will be a significant move in breaking the cycle of educational disadvantage which has pervaded that community until recently. The challenge is to do so in a way that will enable Travellers to use literacy as a tool to articulate their own culture and experience in a way that can enrich other minority and ethnic communities and the settled community at large.

Ms Anne Hughes

The career path for dyslexia programme is a Dyslexia Association of Ireland programme, which Ms Doyle will explain in more detail. I thank the committee for the opportunity to contribute. I am a member of the Dyslexia Association of Ireland, which works with adults whose literacy difficulties are caused by dyslexia. Like the Traveller community, people with dyslexia are a group with specific needs. The association is voluntary and provides information, advice and support to adults and children. We provide psycho-educational assessment and group and individual tuition, including the career path course.

Despite some overlap, people with dyslexia are in a slightly different position from those whose literacy difficulties may arise from other circumstances. It is very important for a person with dyslexia to be identified and to have a psycho-educational assessment which will identify his or her particular difficulties — the reason he or she has literacy difficulties — as this will lead the way towards preparing an individual education programme for that person. Many adults come to us with literacy difficulties. However, unlike many who have literacy difficulties for reasons such as early school leaving, poor school attendance or lack of opportunity, many of those we encounter have been through the education system for 13 years, or longer in the case of those who have managed to go on to third level while still having inadequate levels of literacy to do what they need to do. It is clear that the system as it was did not provide these people with adequate literacy skills because they have specific difficulties which require specific help. Therefore, the assessment end of the process is important.

When people with dyslexia have been identified and a programme is laid out for them, it takes the specialists skills of teachers trained and experienced in working with adults with dyslexia to bring about real improvement. One of the processes we have developed and which we put forward as a prototype is the career path programme. We developed the programme in 1998 and it has proved very successful for adults with dyslexia. In the years of its operation, approximately 200 people, most of whom came from the live register, have been put through the system, with many going on to third level universities and colleges, further training and employment.

Ms Doyle will discuss the training programme in more detail. We regard the training for literacy as just as important as training for any other career. It should be considered as a complete training package and, therefore, training for an occasional hour or two is not sufficient. One of the valuable documents to which I referred in my written submission is the Moser report, one of the most influential and thorough reports on adult literacy which was drawn up in the United Kingdom in 2000 under the direction of Sir Claus Moser. From that report, it clearly emerges that those with literacy difficulties need intensive help at a consistent level. Therefore, our course provides 17.5 hours literacy training for 26 weeks, a level of training we consider essential. We believe our programme has been successful because we have given people that level of literacy tuition plus additional supports to enable them to progress to work.

We could run many more such programmes if we had the required funding. The funding we receive from the further education section of the Department to pay for literacy tuition by specialist teachers is €90,000 per annum, for which we are very grateful. However, it just about covers the cost of literacy tuition. It is slightly more than it would cost to keep one person in Mountjoy Prison for a year yet it enables us to put 28 people through a literacy programme. If we are provided with the necessary funding, we can make a significant contribution to getting people with dyslexia into work and further education. We appeal for the work we do to be recognised and for the funding to be granted so we do not have to beg for it each year.

Ms Margaret Doyle

In a recent quote of the week Deputy Gogarty stated that one in seven children leave primary school with literacy problems, a figure which I am sure was much higher in the past. Such people attend our centre in Celbridge not only with literacy problems but also with psychological problems. Our aim is to develop the knowledge and experience of unemployed dyslexic people to enable them to enter the workforce or return to further education. With regard to specific initiatives for the disadvantaged, while our association was established specifically to deal with dyslexic adults, there are subgroups of disadvantaged people within that group such as early school leavers, people whose leaving certificate is not a true reflection of their ability and people who cannot apply for promotion at work, although they are very able, because they have low literacy skills, low information and communication technology skills or low confidence. The centre in Celbridge is very successful. It has a waiting list and we receive telephone calls daily to ask why there are not centres in Galway, Cork, Sligo or elsewhere. We would like to see the centre expand to other areas.

With regard to workplace literacy, some of those who come to us spent years in the workplace. We offer them a positive, safe environment in which to learn. The methods we use for literacy are based on current research and are the best methods for teaching dyslexic people. A large component of our course involves counselling and personal development to help adults overcome psychological problems they have built up over years in school or the workplace. It is an intensive course lasting six months. At the end of that period, almost all students go on to some kind of employment or further education.

ICT has transformed the workplace in recent times, which is daunting for all, not only those with low literacy skills or dyslexia. We ensure students have basic computer skills. A component dealing with technology skills is a part of my classes and I help participants with text to speech software and other types of technology that have been developed for dyslexic people. They are trained in its use and we then try to match the most suitable technology to the user. This is a significant help to them when they return to the workforce or to simply read books or text on the Internet. Our course is designed specifically for unemployed persons but we are concerned about those persons in employment who contact us seeking help. It would be useful if employees could attain some type of block release from their employment in order to attend one of our courses. An alternative would be a system whereby our tutors could visit workplaces and offer on-site advice and assistance.

In terms of finding innovative ways of reaching out to those in rural areas who need help, we have given talks to adult guidance counsellors and NALA conference workshops. These are people who meet adults with dyslexia on a daily basis in the course of their work. Some of our trainees have appeared on RTE programmes after which we received many telephone calls from people seeking to participate in our courses. Another way to reach out is to provide finance for psychological assessments. As Ms Anne Hughes observed, we need such assessments to ensure that a person wishing to take part in the course is suffering from dyslexia and to make recommendations as to the best strategies the tutor should adopt in meeting that person's needs. We hope to see centres established in other areas in the future.

Chairman

I invite Ms Caitríona Lynch, president of Cúram, to make a presentation.

Ms Caitríona Lynch

I thank the committee for this opportunity. Cúram is an NGO which seeks to represent those performing unremunerated work on a full-time basis in the home, including parents, carers and so on. Our approach to the issue of adult literacy comes not from a specifically educational point of view but rather in terms of our observations of women and men in their work in the home. We have discovered that problems in regard to literacy tend to arise after children are born and that mothers are generally keen to progress the education of their children. This is not to argue that fathers do not share that desire but it is mothers who tend to be more acutely aware of the importance of education.

One of the best ways to target those with literacy difficulties is through maternity care services. We propose that women attending antenatal classes, whether through a health clinic or their local GP, should be offered a number of services and encouraged in a number of different areas including that of parenting skills. As a parenting counsellor, I am aware of the benefits of such training for parents. In addition, they should be encouraged to consider the issue of literacy. Such an initiative through the maternity care service would help to identify those who are illiterate or have poor reading skills. We have found there is a difficulty in encouraging young mothers to participate in reading classes and so on because they are so busy caring for their children. However, there might be an opportunity during the months of preparation before their child is born for women to identify any difficulties they may have with literacy and to undertake to begin dealing with them.

For such an initiative to be successful, information would have to be disseminated to GPs and local health service providers. An immediate difficulty in this regard is that there is a serious shortage of public health nurses. In those areas where the service is available, it is of significant benefit to women to receive visits from public health nurses. As well as looking after the physical needs of the mother and child the health nurse might also have a role to play in assessing parents' literacy needs and encouraging them to take action in this regard. I agree with Ms Helen Campbell that initiatives to educate parents must be organised at a local level. However, people are often embarrassed about literacy difficulties and reluctant to seek help at local education centres such as that in the Newtownpark Avenue community centre. The solution may be to encourage a group of people in a specific area to meet in one of their homes and try to organise some type of literacy course on that basis.

Our experience with the Traveller community indicates a high level of illiteracy. We have found that members of the settled Traveller community, particularly mothers, are keen to see their children educated further. Difficulties they encounter include an inability to help their children with their homework.

If the health and education systems, including GPs and so on, are to provide the primary role in identifying and assisting parents with literacy difficulties, a role may also be played by the local VEC, as Ms Campbell suggested. A difficulty in this regard is that there are insufficient numbers of school liaison officers. As a teacher, I have discovered that issues can be more readily identified during one-to-one discussions with parents at parent-teacher meetings. In such settings, parents may be more inclined to confide their difficulties in helping their children. There should be a specific agenda on the part of teachers when partaking in liaison with parents on a one-to-one basis, particularly in regard to younger children. This would allow them to identify where there are literacy difficulties on the part of parents and to provide encouragement to deal with such problems.

Our sister organisation in Belgium, Mamen hilfen Mamen — which means "Mother helping Mother" — has devised a system whereby a person who has been through the system will assist another person. It is vital that both should be from a similar community. It is not helpful for a well-heeled middle class person to seek to assist people living in a disadvantaged area. It is far more encouraging for a person to see a peer, from the same community, who has achieved something important to them. In a particular community it may be a significant achievement for a person to be able to go to a post office and fill out a form without assistance. Only members of a community can recognise the needs of others in that community and the level of literacy they need to attain.

The means of communication in targeting those with literacy problems must be vocal and visual rather than written. A leaflet is of no use to a person who cannot read and usual sources of printed public information such as libraries and GP offices will not work for those with literacy difficulties. Mother and toddler groups provide a useful means of identifying persons with literacy problems. Women who are normally embarrassed by what may be perceived as their inadequacies in this regard will open up where their children are concerned. The delivery of parent-child services provides a useful forum for targeting those who require assistance in improving their literacy skills.

Ms Campbell raised another important issue and I wish to conclude on this point. There is an ongoing emphasis in our society on economics rather than society, relationships and the worth of the individual. The emphasis is on education in order to get people back into the workforce. Those who are illiterate tend to come from low-wage families, often living close to the bread line. The education they require is simple and basic. In my local area one can attend FÁS courses without paying any fee and while availing of free child-minding services, provided one intends to return to work on either a full-time or part-time basis. However, a person who wishes to improve his or her computing skills, for example, and perhaps do some part-time work at home while continuing to care for children and elderly parents must pay to do a FÁS course and for the child care costs that may arise while he or she is doing that course.

The desire to educate oneself is seen as worthwhile only if one is returning to the workforce. This represents a significant stumbling block in terms of assisting those with literacy difficulties. We are not looking at education for the sake of enhancing lifestyles and enhancing the literacy of our children's children — the taxpayers of the future. We are only interested in the short term but need the courage and vision to look beyond and see what type of society we are building. We must put money into people rather than products.

Chairman

I invite Ms Mary O'Carolan, employment service co-ordinator for the Bray Adult Education Network to contribute.

Ms Mary O’Carolan

I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to develop some of the ideas which featured in our original submission. Representatives of County Wicklow VEC appeared before the committee yesterday, and while several arms of the VEC are part of the adult education network, Bray has particular issues which are more similar to those in some areas of Dublin than in the rest of County Wicklow. We are very urbanised and have high levels of unemployment and early school leaving. In some areas, more than 50% of people have left school at the age of 15 years or younger. In this way, Bray tends to be slightly different from the rest of the county.

As the network is an amalgam of groups, I will echo most of the issues which have already been raised. We looked at a number of areas, the first being the prioritisation of those with the lowest literacy levels. A problem which arises time and again is the number of people coming through the formal education system who still cannot read and write. They cannot fill in a form, go to FÁS and register properly or sign on at the dole office without significant assistance.

The second area, which links in to the first, is the need for adequate assessments in respect of learning difficulties, such as dyslexia. The educational psychology service must be available to adult learners but is not at this time. This links in to the issue of one-to-one mentoring support and tuition for certain groups, such as Travellers and ex-prisoners. In the past two or three years we have had a very innovative project, local education for adult progression for Traveller men, LEAP, which was funded under the education equality initiative. However, many of those men will never sit in a VEC class. They need specialist one-to-one provision which is not available through the VEC because it does not have the money to pay for it. For a while we had money to buy in specialist provisions but the money ran out and one could argue that the men are now worse off because one has created an expectation and a hope of actually doing something.

There is a need for literacy tutors, whether voluntary or paid, to have a broad range of skills, for example phonographics. Different methods work for different people. There have been instances whereby voluntary literacy tutors did not know that the person with whom they were dealing had learning disabilities. They worked with them for years and thought they were getting nowhere. However, they could not carry out an assessment and decide to try another method.

We must look at innovative ways in which to reach out to those in need of literacy services. In its submission to the committee, County Wicklow VEC will have mentioned its family learning programme which has been extremely successful in 99% of cases working with mothers and finding innovative projects which link parents into education in a manner which is meant to assist their children but probably assists them even more.

Many get through life with very low literacy levels which are not detected. We all know people who can read the racing pages or count in snooker or darts but who have never and could never read a book. They have difficulty in reading dosage instructions on medicines. We must look at how we can draw in these people. Somebody mentioned the driving theory test and we have had several categories of people who said that is the first time they were near a computer or engaged in anything formal. However, it is necessary for them to do so now and in some cases this has led to other developments.

Another project in which we are involved is aimed at women over the age of 45 years. We advertise courses for nervous beginners in order to get people to come in and start using computers. It sounds funny, but it was amazing how many people realised that they had never turned on a computer and were worried that they might break it. It is an example of thinking up new methods, applying them and trying to be successful.

Targeted outreach involves going out and talking to those who are hardest to reach, such as male Travellers, ex-prisoners and drug users, and needs to be resourced. We work with the Traveller men's project and in the past two or three years there have been 1,200 outreach visits to 108 men. That is fairly intensive and in addition to ongoing course delivery, information queries and welfare rights work. This is often not acknowledged in terms of funding.

Another issue is the development of specific initiatives for disadvantaged groups. As I said previously, one size does not fit all. The VEC is extremely supportive of many community actions in the area and would provide a class. However, some people would not fit the class. For example, if an ex-prisoner walked into a class other people would walk out. It is the same case with drug users. People will not stay in the same room as certain other people. We must acknowledge that people, when starting off, need to be in situations which they regard as comfortable, culturally appropriate, safe and properly resourced.

Mention has been made of the cost of participation. Child care is a huge issue, as is transport, even when a course is provided free of charge. It can be expensive to travel to and from Bray for those living in outlying areas such as Roundwood or Enniskerry.

The back to education initiative has been fantastic and is availed of by many of the groups in our network. However, there are huge problems in respect of people who are working but earning quite a low income. They are expected to pay for what is a basic education and the VEC acknowledges this as a problem. There is also an issue for non-nationals who are quite capable of working but have a low standard of English. They find it difficult to sustain a job, but cannot access the courses. They can if they are on the dole, but not if they are working.

Workplace literacy is a developing area. Workplaces have become increasingly computerised and those who work on a machine will probably have to key in production information at the end of the day. It is a real challenge to support employers to engage in these programmes and County Wicklow VEC is working with the county council in this regard. Perhaps one must first work through statutory organisations and then sell it to private companies.

Deputy O’Sullivan

I welcome everyone here today. With regard to the Dyslexia Association and a career path for dyslexia, the message seems to be that if the organisation received more funding it could extend the work it does in Celbridge to other parts of the country. Are plenty of people knocking on the door who wish to avail of the services? In the case of other groups which have appeared before the committee, much of their energy is concentrated on trying to get out and reach people who are not coming to them looking for the service. It seems to be a different problem in that regard.

I was interested in the suggestions of how to reach people. The issue of the driver theory test was raised by one or two groups yesterday and has been raised twice this morning. It seems to present a real opportunity because it is a process that many need and want to get through. Ms Lynch mentioned antenatal classes. Is there a case for making a very simple video that could be used in waiting areas in places like antenatal classes, doctors' surgeries, community welfare offices or driving test centres? Making a video might be worthwhile because, as somebody said, the leaflets simply do not work. What are participants' views on the efficacy of producing a very short visual presentation that could be placed in waiting rooms? Do they think it would be helpful in reaching people?

I was interested in the section on peer education in the Exchange House Travellers Service presentation. Could Ms Campbell tell us a bit more about peer education? It appears to be an effective method with specific groups like Travellers.

Deputy English

I thank the participants for coming here today. It is good to have all the submissions presented. As many groups have appeared before the committee, some of the questions have probably already been asked or we have some of the answers to them but there are always a few more questions to ask as we go along.

Even when people are in antenatal classes or when it might be fairly obvious that a person has a literacy problem, the question arises as to how to go about making a visit to that person. I have a few clients that I deal with on a regular basis whom I know have literacy problems. However, they go to massive lengths not to admit it, which I understand. All of us in the office do our best. One man did everything he could to avoid having to do the driver theory test. He persuaded me to write to the Department of Transport and beg everyone under the sun to allow him to skip the driver theory test and simply sit the driving test because he was afraid to sit the driver theory test. Eventually, after months of toing and froing and helping him with his forms, somebody accompanied him when he went to sit the driver theory test and he passed it. However, it was pure fear and an inability to admit to any of us that he found it hard to write that made him want to avoid having to sit the test. As I did not have the heart to try to talk to him about it, how does one take that final step when one knows somebody is experiencing difficulties?

A short video or media presentation would be very effective. Possibly, it could be played at petrol stations considering that they now show these types of videos. It could also be played in waiting areas in banks or doctors' surgeries. Everyone seems to be going the route of having a television so one could easily play a video. Leaflets and posters cannot work because if people have literacy problems, they will not be able to read them. A person's sister, brother, spouse or partner might be able to help him or her and tell him or her about the poster but it necessitates that person confronting the person with literacy problems. We must find ways around this.

Funding appears to be the big issue. Can anyone tell us what are we talking about in terms of the increase required? Is it a case that no matter what amount of money one can get, one can spend it or do we have figures? I refer to current spending. We discussed capital spending yesterday and I think all of us here are aware there are considerable areas in terms of buildings and infrastructure that can be improved. However, this is probably a longer term goal. The most important thing is to have the current, day-to-day spending to be able to provide the courses and then try to improve the places that have them. I am very aware that accessibility in some of the buildings used is questionable but we must live with it.

Is there any other way of encouraging businesses to involve themselves more in this area or to help it more effectively? As participants noted, in-house courses are held but there is a taboo about attending literacy courses in some places.

The training allowance was mentioned yesterday and today. People mentioned some sort of a payment or financial help towards child care or travelling costs and time off work if necessary. It is very interesting to say that if a person is on the dole, he or she can avail of courses but a person in a low-paid job or who wants to improve himself or herself cannot. This appears to be a common trend across the board in other areas of social welfare, which need to be made fairer.

To encourage people to improve their literacy skills, it might not be enough for them to think they are going to take a course that will help them read or write better. Is there anything else we can add to courses? Two things that work very well in my own area are a poets' society and a short story initiative. Participants have taken a step forward and have gone straight into these initiatives so although they are learning from the beginning of their course, they are also getting a bonus because they will now be able to write poetry. It is an additional incentive to attend courses so it helps alleviate the burden of having to attend courses at night or in the early morning. What are participants' views on this?

Deputy Gogarty

Ms Campbell mentioned that adult literacy should have its own specific strategy for the Traveller community. Ms O'Carolan mentioned that she wanted targets for each group. Ms Campbell spoke about areas with large numbers of halting sites. These include emergency and temporary halting sites and any form of Traveller accommodation, regardless of whether it is officially recognised.

Regarding the training allowance, a speaker suggested that the children's allowance should be cut if parents do not send their children to school. On a more sensible note, Ms Campbell suggested the opposite course of action. How much should the training allowance be? What figure is she is talking about in terms of what would encourage members of the Traveller community to attend and cover their costs? I would ask the same question of Ms O'Carolan with regard to costs. Does she have any indication — I know it is not necessarily her position — of what costings have been done to expand the educational psychology service for adult learners because this would obviously be a cost to the State? It would be a welcome and necessary cost. It might be helpful if Ms O'Carolan had some figures.

Ms Hughes mentioned that it is possible to give literacy training to 28 people in prison for €90,000, which is just higher than the cost of keeping someone in Mountjoy Prison. What standard would these 28 people reach for the sum of €90,000? What could these prisoners do after training that they cannot do now and would the training affect their chances of reoffending? I firmly believe that such training would have a positive effect but I would like to find out what its tangible effects are, based on the experience of Ms Hughes.

My next question relates to psychologists in each city and the career paths for which Ms Doyle is a tutor. She mentioned that possibly 14 learners can cover a six-month course. How many does she think would be available were the funding to be provided to have them and how many cities or centres would it be needed for?

As Ms Lynch is a teacher, I wish to ask her a few questions relating to teaching. She mentioned the universalisation of home-school liaison officers who currently operate in disadvantaged areas. As a teacher, does she foresee problems with getting home-school liaison officers to go into those areas and do pay and conditions present problems? Given that the educational welfare officers, who have a statutory role, have not been rolled out, does she consider that they might be more effective as a liaison with parents on that issue because they will be dealing with individuals like social workers to a greater extent?

I have a devil's advocate question regarding antenatal services. Many of the people who are late showers are those with literacy problems, including women from overseas who are giving birth in Ireland. While it makes considerable sense, how does one get them to come early in the first place?

This brings me on to a question about public health nurses. A woman who tried to get an appointment with a public health nurse for a standard assessment for a child in my area was told she would have to wait 18 months. This case might be an exception because the woman in question was not there at the time. In order to get an appointment that she missed, she was told she would have to wait 18 months. Are there more effective ways of dealing with parents who are raising children at home but wish to improve their literacy standard for its own sake rather than just for the workplace? Could I get general comments from all the speakers on this issue because my party believes that if the State does not invest in education, it will cost it money? We need to carry out serious research in Ireland on this issue.

Given that the Government talks in purely economic terms and not social terms, can our guests make comments in terms of the hidden economic costs of not investing in social and personal educational advancement as opposed to workforce-related education? I thank everyone for their contributions. Some of my questions were asked previously. I welcome feedback. I have asked previously about priorities. If our guests were told they had a limited amount of money for additional funding of services, what would be their top two priorities?

Deputy Hoctor

I welcome the delegates and thank them for their enlightening contributions. Ms Lynch made a plea to the committee in support of mothers who choose to remain at home and also want to up-skill. It is a very worthwhile request and I ask the committee to take it on board. We should particularly note what was asked regarding those who choose to remain at home in order that they may still avail of the courses provided through FÁS without being apparently penalised for remaining at home. They cost the taxpayer less than those who go out and avail of child care facilities, although it is right that people have that option also. This point should be particularly noted in support of what Ms Lynch has put before the committee.

I have a general question regarding the area of dyslexia. I worked with dyslexic children and often detected or at least predicted as best I could as a teacher that a child in the classroom might have dyslexia. Parents want children to be assessed by educational psychologists. I am interested in the availability, accessibility and affordability of educational psychologists and believe they are low in terms of priorities. How can one overcome this when dealing with younger and older members of society? Ms O'Carolan said educational psychologists were not available to the members of the adult population who wish to improve their literacy skills. It must be difficult to work on the levels of need without assessments by educational psychologists. I welcome comments on this matter.

On Ms Campbell's work with the Traveller community, has she come across the Traveller language, Gammon and Shelta? Is it part of the language used by Travellers or is it associated with the older members of the Traveller population? Is it a difficulty for Ms Campbell and the tutors who work with the Traveller population who want to improve their literacy and numerical skills?

Senator Minihan

I thank our guests for their presentations. I will concentrate on a couple of direct and brief questions. In the area of dyslexia, I was interested in the comments on assessments, particularly their acceptance or non-acceptance by the Department of Education and Science. The committee obviously receives representations in this area, especially in the area of exemptions for State examinations etc. There seems to be some diversity in what is accepted. At times, I find it difficult to understand. I welcome an independent view from people who are working on the matter on a daily basis. How do they think we clarify the issue? If one can pay for professional assessments, one has better access at times to exemptions from the Department of Education and Science. This seems to be discriminatory. I would welcome our guests' comments on this matter.

I echo Deputy Hoctor's comments to Ms Lynch. A general question across the board but concentrating on Ms Lynch's presentation relates to the area of e-learning. We have talked about videos and various different methods. I am a fan of e-learning and wonder how it could be used or invested in to promote the work being done in different fields. I accept there are people who are not computer literate. The point was made at our meeting yesterday that not being computer literate is illiteracy in this day and age. However, there is a market out there for people who are somewhat computer literate but still have basic linguistic, reading and numerical deficiencies. Has there been much thought, investment, piloting or utilisation of e-learning? It links with Ms Lynch's presentation on people who want to stay at home and further their education. It is done on a private basis in certain colleges but it should be examined on a public basis.

It also links with access. FÁS courses were mentioned. Why can someone not do his or her course from home through e-learning? I am taken aback that people who require basic education are denied it and must pay for it as an adult, or people on the dole benefiting more from the services available. We could address many of these individual problems by exploring and utilising e-learning to a better degree.

Can I get a rough idea of how many people acting as tutors are from the Traveller community?

Senator Tuffy

I thank everybody for their presentations. I wish to refer to a point made by Ms Lynch. I was examining information yesterday for constituents who are in receipt of social welfare payments. I checked to determine what courses they could do, etc. They can do a course in the local VEC college for free because they are on social welfare payments. Although it was great for my constituents, I had not thought about people working in their own homes. This is an anomaly that must be addressed.

On a related issue, Ms O'Carolan mentioned the VECs and raised the same issue in respect of people who are working and must pay. Often, they are on the minimum wage. I spoke with someone recently who is at a different level in this matter. She was going to do a part-time course. She is on the minimum wage but does not get tax relief for her course. She must pay €3,000 in fees to do this course. She started with a foundation course but there is very little support for people who earn low incomes. Third level colleges have done some work in conjunction with companies in order to provide training for the workforce. Something I have become aware of in connection with the redundancies announced in recent times is that many of those people never reached junior or leaving certificate level. Does the VEC do any work with companies, for example manufacturing companies, to address the skills related to literacy?

It is not mentioned in Ms Doyle's submission, but from where does her group get its funding? Does it get State funding for its work? The fact that people have difficulties in making payments for assessments was mentioned. Concerning the Exchange House Travellers Service, I was interested in what was said about a payment to Travellers to attend courses. Do they get any supports, for example, travel allowances? An issue raised by groups today and yesterday is that of literally begging for funding, as mentioned by Ms Hughes. Is this an issue for the Exchange House Travellers Service or does it know its level of funding in time to plan? The need for multiannual funding of the different bodies was mentioned. The need to link literacy courses to practical courses such as driver theory was also mentioned. Yesterday, a woman from the section dealing with psychiatry of old age referred to a course dealing with body awareness. Ms Lynch referred to linking literacy courses with ante-natal or pre-natal courses.

A matter of interest to politicians is the low turnout at elections and one factor in this is the issue of illiteracy. I was surprised to meet a mother outside a school who said she had never voted and wanted to find out how to do so. When electronic voting was touted I was aware that many elderly people had a fear of it and felt they would not be able for it. They were used to the ballot paper and casting a vote by marking the paper. Is there any way literacy could be linked with democracy and voting?

Senator Minihan

I apologise for having to leave for a meeting at 1 p.m., even though some of my questions are about to be answered. I will get the answers from the transcript.

Ms Campbell

Deputy O'Sullivan asked about peer educators. There are a number of peer educators who have been trained as literacy tutors in the Clondalkin area. There are difficulties in training people and then providing a framework in which they can work. A useful model is the one whereby primary health care workers have been trained before fulfilling a specific role in the community and funded through the HSE. It is very difficult to train people and then expect them to work for nothing or for an irregular income. There is no perception of value.

A video on a loop is a good idea but I suggest it needs to be backed up by appropriate leaflets. Appropriate leaflets with high visual content could be devised and I have seen these in the United States. We should not ignore the paper-based trail as to do so conveys the idea that people will never be able to handle this. It is important they realise that they can, with support.

Deputy English referred to resources and funding but it is not simply a question of funding. It is not very difficult to receive funding for Travellers but much energy is required for funding applications and this diverts the resources of an organisation. If one had a full-time fundraiser it would be better but no NGO can afford this. To a degree, one is writing the same story in different ways for different funders and that seems a waste of time. If there were a national adult literacy strategy specifically for Travellers, funding could be streamlined through that and this would reduce the energy expended on fundraising.

Deputy Gogarty asked about high concentrations of Travellers. It is often easier if there is a major halting site such as the one in Clondalkin or Finglas. Many Travellers living in standard housing miss out because they are not in the loop for community development projects for Travellers. They still feel they are Travellers and they could leave their housing for a halting site. We have frequently applied for funding for a community development framework to work with Travellers in standard housing across the Dublin city region where we work. This has been impossible because of the way family resource and community development funding is devolved. The way the money is devolved is a major problem for people.

Concerning training allowances, these vary enormously. While I am not a person for detailed figures, participants in our FÁS programme are on different training allowances if they are lone parents. One anomaly is that people on a carer's allowance do not qualify for a place on a FÁS programme as they are supposed to be caring. For this reason they miss out on many training opportunities and we have had many Traveller women leave our FÁS programme for this reason. It is appalling that they are denied this opportunity.

As more businesses operated by male Travellers are drawn into the mainstream economy, I have seen training programmes in England that allow women in the family to work as administrators in the business. This has been a great help to the family and is a method of tapping into the Traveller economy, where workers enjoy working with other members of the extended family. There is a difficulty in developing programmes not immediately related to women in the home and this is linked to the point made by Ms Lynch.

We all operate on year to year funding and this is a major difficulty. One cannot plan as one does not know what funding will be available. It is fairly ad hoc and one hopes to have the same funding as the previous year. Sometimes this does not happen and a successful programme funded by FÁS in Labre Park, Ballyfermot had to be cancelled at the last minute. One of the women in this programme was the first in Crumlin College to achieve a complete FETAC foundation certificate. The week she achieved this, we were told funding was cut for this programme as it was not seen as a pre-employment programme. It is very difficult to secure funding for a basic adult education programme.

Deputy Gogarty asked about our two priorities and mine would be to set up an adult literacy strategy and a mechanism to enable VECs to provide a training allowance. The brief of FÁS is to prepare people for employment rather than to provide people with basic education. The latter is seen as the brief of the VECs.

Senator Minihan asked about Traveller tutors. From my experience there are more outside the Dublin region than inside it. Though I do not have figures to back up this observation, I have met many more in Athlone or Galway than I have in Dublin. Though there are some in Dublin, there is not enough.

Research is being carried out by DCU into how people learn through information technology and more money needs to be spent on this. The relation between pedagogy and e-learning has not been explored but the way in which we learn is obviously different. I have met people who claim they cannot read yet when one asks them for information on the Internet they can produce it. There is a psychological barrier about the printed page and this needs to be overcome.

Deputy Hoctor

What about the Traveller language?

Ms Campbell

In Exchange House we work with marginalised Travellers. Our organisation was set up to deal with young Travellers sniffing glue in Dublin. Our experience was that youngsters tend not to have much Shelta or Gammon although their parents would have some and would use it occasionally. I occasionally hear our Traveller staff using it among themselves but they tend to use specific words rather than speaking the dialect. There is much more of it outside Dublin and it would be a useful way of working with young children. In Cork and Kerry booklets have been produced that translate stories and use words in a manner similar to the Buntús Cainte approach to teaching Irish. Certainly, in our experience the young people around Dublin with whom we work do not have much Shelta. They might have a couple of words.

Ms Doyle

I shall answer a few questions but most of them will be answered by Ms Hughes. Deputies O'Sullivan and Gogarty asked about the waiting list and the demand in other parts of the country. From telephone calls we receive and from speaking with the administrators in Celbridge who tell us they receive calls from Letterkenny or County Clare we know many people contact us about the course but we must refuse them. When they ask why we do not set up a course there, we must answer that we do not have the funds. We have not kept a list of people who have done so and perhaps it is a valid point that from now on we should keep a record of how many people are in different areas.

A question was asked about the cost of not investing in adult literacy. I imagine it would lead to unemployment. If people are illiterate, they will not get jobs. Intelligent people with dyslexia are reluctant to continue to higher education because they do not have the skills. They then lose out on higher paid employment to which they might otherwise have been entitled.

I will pass the question on educational psychologists to Ms Hughes because I do not work on money issues. I am interested in e-learning as I recently completed a masters in IT and education. I have considered it from the point of view of dyslexia and can see its role as a supplement to hands-on work with dyslexic people but not as a full e-learning course. A major component of our course is counselling and personal development which requires one to be there to provide help. Perhaps people living at a distance from a course or centre could do some work at home on their computers and could come less often for one-to-one help.

As most of the other issues are related to money, I will leave them to Ms Hughes.

Ms Hughes

In answer to Deputy O'Sullivan's question, within the past week I had an inquiry from a lady in west Cork who is involved in community education. On Tuesday night I was in Mullingar speaking with an interested adult education group and I also spoke to a group in Sligo. We also had inquiries from Letterkenny. Those are official groups. The people Ms Doyle spoke about are individuals who contacted us. Last week somebody came all the way from Cork and stayed in Dublin for the course but found it was too much hassle in terms of his family and gave up the 17.5 hour literacy course. He went home to Cork and was offered a half an hour per week through the regular adult education system. That is an indication of the difficulties faced and why somebody would come to us. Young single people from various parts of the country come to us and arrange accommodation in Celbridge while they take the course. They go home on Friday evenings and return on Monday mornings. We have a waiting list and there is a demand.

I can tie in some other questions on funding. As I was trying to be good and stick to my five minutes speaking time I did not give as much breakdown as I should have on how we operate but much of the information is in our written information. Our course is interesting in that it is a co-operative effort between FÁS, the further education section of the Department of Education and Science and us. The course is fully funded by FÁS and the participants are paid an allowance; I agree with that because the idea is that they will enter full-time work or further training. FÁS provides the premises from which we operate the career path course. It provides the equipment and computers and the salaries of the supervisor and assistant supervisor as it would for a regular FÁS course.

Our course is integrated and I am happy to state we also run the driver theory test. That is a great carrot for people on the course. We use that disk and people use it for training. The course is aimed at getting people into work and is a complete programme. The mornings are devoted to literacy and in the afternoons people do computer training, maths, personal development, interview skills and research on where they will go from there.

As a FÁS local training initiative programme, FÁS carries the funding burden. The dyslexia association provides the psycho-educational assessments for people who have not been assessed before and we provide the trained specialist literacy tutors. That is one of the other stumbling blocks to setting up this course elsewhere. The specialist skills required for a course such as this are not easy to come by. We require highly specialised people. Ms Doyle is a rare breed as someone who has that type of experience in tuition with adults and IT.

With regard to the figure of €90,000, I apologise if I misled Deputy Gogarty. I was trying to make the point that with great difficulty we receive €90,000 from the further education section of the Department of Education and Science. Last year we received €80,000 and this year €90,000. We applied for a little more. From this we must pay several literacy tutors. We maintain a high ratio of tutors to learners because that is on what our success is based and what people need. It also covers a certain amount of assessment but the dyslexia association must fund the remainder of assessment costs out of its own limited resources. There is no provision for our overheads such as my time or consultation with psychologists working with the course.

If one asks what we need in terms of funding the answer is anything. We received €90,000 for the career path course but the association itself received nothing this year. In past years we received €63,500 to cover some of our core costs such as rent, telephone bills, electricity, printing, stationery, photocopying and my pay. We received nothing from the State for that this year. We are subsidising the career path course out of our nothingness as the €90,000 does not cover it all.

When I mentioned the €90,000 with regard to the prisons, the point I was making is that most people realise that unfortunately our prisons are highly populated by people with literacy problems and lower educational attainment. I do not suggest for one minute that most of those people are dyslexic but some of them are and some have all types of literacy difficulties. We receive €90,000 out of which we give tuition to 28 people over a year. I do not comment on what tuition people receive in prison. I was not discussing the Prison Service.

Deputy Gogarty

What improvement would be shown if that €90,000 were expended on 28 people in prison?

Ms Hughes

I do not know what would happen with people in prison. I know that people who come to us often improve from being non-readers, pre-readers or having extremely poor literacy. Some people who come in have tolerable literacy. They have a late primary school level of reading and some of them develop their literacy in reading, writing and spelling ability enough to enable them to enter third level education. Some of the people on our course have third level education.

I can give the committee the breakdown I give every year to the Department of Education and Science when we apply for funding on the number who have come in, the level they were at, their improvement level and where they went. We have records and people improve greatly. My point relates to cost-effectiveness. If we could keep even one young person out of prison we would have more than paid for ourselves. This is the case everybody makes.

Education costs a lot but not providing it costs twice as much. In terms of funding, I would like serious consideration to be given to the submissions we make, which is not happening. The funding requirements would depend on how many centres one is discussing, but to give members some idea, €90,000 enables us to maintain the course in Celbridge, but there is also a major input from FÁS in that regard. In terms of priorities and what we would do if we were in receipt of extra money, we would arrange for extra assessment and for more funded tuition for adults. Only 14 people at a time attend our course and we provide a certain amount of funded tuition. People who need specialist tuition from a dyslexia-trained tutor would normally have to pay for it themselves, even if they are working in the home or unemployed. We manage to fund a certain amount of that type of tuition and extra money would enable us to fund much more because not everyone is able to attend a FÁS course. I echo the points made by Ms Lynch regarding the necessity of providing people with education for life and for their children. Many people approach us when they need to help their children with homework and cannot do so. That is true for every organisation that deals with adult literacy.

Many members asked questions regarding assessments, their availability, accessibility and affordability, as well as where psycho-educational assessments are accepted. As members will be aware, the National Educational Psychological Service is unable to cope with the demand. In theory the service offers a free psychological assessment to children at primary and second level. However, it is not possible for the service to actually do this. Rather than further develop the psychological service, help will now be offered to children without prior assessment. The idea is that children can be helped within the school system without requiring an assessment, which can have both positive and negative effects on those with dyslexia. The system is positive in the sense that help can be given immediately — the child does not have to wait until such time as an assessment is carried out. However, it can be negative or unhelpful if teachers are working with children whom they know to have a learning difficulty while not being exactly sure how to go about rectifying or dealing with that difficulty.

This is a major problem which we have raised with the Minister for Education and Science. We will continue to make submissions to the effect that children need assessment and that schools and parents are not making unreasonable requests in that regard. Children and adults are entitled to know why they have had learning difficulties. They are entitled to that information about themselves. If, for example, they had a medical condition, they would be entitled to know why and what treatment will be given. Our organisation carries out some assessments but if we had the funding, we could do more. The situation is very unsatisfactory at present and rather than improving, I envisage it getting worse.

Senator Minihan asked about assessments which are accepted and those that are not. That is a situation which should never arise. If the person carrying out an assessment on an adult or a child is a qualified psychologist, recognised by the Psychological Society of Ireland, it is very disturbing if another psychologist then decides that he or she will not accept the report from that person. This is something that should be addressed by the Psychological Society of Ireland. To quote the cliché, doctors differ and patients die. A professional person can make an assessment, stating that he or she has seen a particular child, deems that child to have a specific difficulty requiring certain help such as an exemption from studying Irish or a special arrangement for an exam. The psychologists within the National Educational Psychological Service may then decide that they do not agree with the view of that professional person. It is not helpful when the NEPS psychologists reject the assessment outright. I do not believe they are instructed to do so, but schools and school principals have reported that certain assessments do not appear to be acceptable. It appears that unless a child is assessed by a NEPS psychologist, nothing will happen.

Deputy Gogarty

They reduce the hours allocated, according to a circular that has been sent around. If the independent assessment states that the child needs six or seven hours of help but the circular states four hours, then the child receives four hours.

Ms Hughes

That is a question of resources and I would not necessarily have a quarrel with that particular point. If they do not have six hours to give, there is nothing that can be done about it. However, while it is fine to disagree with what a psychologist has said, it is not acceptable to reject his or her assessment outright.

Ms Lynch

I shall do my best to answer all of the questions posed. We are all aware that the European Union is in favour of social engineering and we need some social engineering in the area of adult literacy, specifically concerning the attitude of illiterate people to their situation. A colleague of mine who is a doctor comes from a background of very low literacy. Her parents were opposed to the idea of her wanting to become a doctor. Their attitude was that education was unnecessary because they did not receive it but got on fine in life. A purpose-driven media campaign must be conducted. In a report commissioned by Mr. Jack Straw, the media was encouraged to get involved in promoting literacy through soap operas. It was suggested that pertinent story lines could be written to promote the idea that education is good and that it does not matter how illiterate a person is, his or her literacy skills can be improved. We need some degree of social engineering which will provide a foundation for other work. It does not matter how much money one throws at liaison or health officers if there is a perpetuation of the hesitant attitude to involvement in education.

A video on a loop is a good idea which is worth exploring further because the issue is how to catch people. It is up to us to reach out to them. Very few people have the motivation to put themselves in the embarrassing situation of seeking out help and running the risk of being turned down. Assistance needs to be brought to people and in that regard the video idea might be useful.

In maternity hospitals we used to have the infamous Bounty bags, which are now EU bags. While it may be pointless to put a leaflet in such bags, we could possibly do something in that area. In Holles Street Maternity Hospital, for example, every mother is shown how to bathe her child. Perhaps additional help could be provided in that context. The midwife could look out for more than just the physical needs of the mother and child. Also, every new mother is given a card for injections and vaccinations. Perhaps she could also be given an invitation to attend a coffee morning in the hospital to discuss any difficulties she may experiencing. Again, these are just suggestions for tagging on to systems already in place, rather than setting up an entirely new system.

Some illiterate women in our organisation were attracted towards involvement in education through life skills. It may sound stereotypical but that is the way the world works. We have had some ladies who were illiterate and who were having difficulties preparing food. I realised this when I discovered that one woman could not read the instructions on a packet of food I offered her. It transpired that her family may have faced nutritional problems because she did not know how to diversify meals. She took a cooking course. Courses could be described in terms of, for example, cooking or metal welding classes in order that they are not intellectually frightening. People could be then taught how to read a recipe, which will not be a challenge for those who already know but which will be picked up by others.

Returning to the VEC issue, I do not wish to imply that, because we work in the home, we should have the same entitlements as everybody else. Costs and values have to be estimated in these matters. Child care is an important issue and it should be recommended that people be encouraged to work or be educated at home in order that they do not incur child care costs. Investment in education for those who may not return to the workforce is not lost money, nor is it made for the sake of even-handedness. It is a worthwhile activity. It is good to educate parents because they, in turn, will educate their children, which will reduce subsequent costs.

I was asked about the issue of liaison officers versus educational welfare officers. The answer to this issue depends on the area. It may be said that the answer lies in universal school liaison officers. It would be tragic if a liaison officer was not available to a school with three illiterate students. The cloth must be cut to its measure. The education officer may free a teacher to work for one hour per week on a specific area.

Deputy Gogarty

As part of his or her responsibilities.

Ms Lynch

A teacher may receive correspondence from parents concerning dyslexia and pass it to another teacher who is responsible in this area. This is particularly pertinent to junior schools because problems may be recognised and resolved more speedily at that level. When new children begin junior infant classes, parents drop off and collect their children every day. They discontinue this practice when the children are older and, by the age of ten or 11 years, children may be left at the school gate. If money is provided to take action in schools, it should be invested at junior infant level in disadvantaged areas. Smaller sums could be invested in less disadvantaged schools.

Ms O’Carolan

A visual presentation is a good idea, provided it does not become the only action taken. Government policy and advertisements are often concerned with one issue at a time which, it is claimed, has to work. It is then discontinued if it does not work. A range of measures should be put in place.

I wish to add to Deputy English's remarks on methods of getting people to identify. We find that many groups in our network identify because they have a safe reason to admit they have difficulties in reading and writing. They may say that they are unable help their children with homework in particular subjects. Numeracy is a significant issue because, for example, mathematical curricula have changed since I left school. It is safe to make such an admission because it is acceptable to have that kind of problem.

People may also have developed relationships with particular projects, such as those addressing drugs or Travellers, and will be able to declare their needs. Every year the adult learning centre finds that it has insufficient volunteers to work with the number seeking services, who may approach the centre randomly or through referral. On occasion, services such as the local employment service with which I am involved refer people to the learning centre who must wait upon a volunteer tutor. If a person took a long time to pluck up the courage to look for this help but tutors are not available because they are volunteers, he or she may not return a few months later. That has been a significant problem.

People have different ideas about resources. One of the specialist projects with which we are involved is a Traveller men's initiative. We resolved the challenge of training allowances by approaching the Department of Social and Family Affairs, which has been helpful in providing a relatively small sum of money, which is paid to the men at the conclusion of the course. They were originally paid €15 and are now paid €10 for each session they attend. While that is not a large sum, if they attend twice a week for 20 weeks, it represents a considerable sum at, for example, Christmas. They are happy with that and refer to the course as work, although they are actually taking classes in, for example, woodwork, welding or photography or pursuing back to education initiative courses. It is important in terms of their standing within their community. They view the course as work because they are being paid.

A number of pilot initiatives are ongoing, whether under education equality initiatives, equality for women measures or EQUAL. How many of those are mainstreamed and what strategies may be explored? The Traveller men's project continues to receive funding from the partnership and the Department of Social and Family Affairs, support tutor hours from the VEC and funding from the back to education initiative during the past two years. However, it was refused dormant accounts funding and does not seem to have access to any mainstream funding. While the VEC may be able to provide tuition, the issue with certain categories arises over engagement and support. Five or six of our clients attend methadone clinics. Support is needed to ensure that they continue to attend the clinics as well as visit doctors. A holistic service is needed. In some cases, the people involved are on the margins of society.

A similar situation applies in the case of ex-prisoners. We are only beginning to address this issue. Projects such as pathways involve peer education, where some of the tutors have gone through the prison system and are now highly educated. They assist others who are currently encountering challenges faced by the tutors some years ago.

Workplace support and people who are working are linked issues. One aspect is that workplace supports and workplace learning are difficult to achieve when employers do not have an incentive to take part. In many cases, employers just want somebody to come in, do a job and go home at the end of the day. In south Wicklow there has been some success with initiatives involving health and safety, which was a creative way of stating that all staff have to go through health and safety training, and if they were unable to read and write, they could not do so.

I stated in the submission that the VEC is now considering Wicklow County Council instead of private employers because the former has a social remit as well as one for providing services. This consideration of the VEC and county council working together will begin in the autumn. Many of the suitable personnel in the county council may be in low skilled work.

This links to the other issue of people working who cannot access the most basic type of educational provision without paying for it. The criteria surrounding the back to education initiative should be examined because if a person has a medical card he or she can access courses. However, the medical card threshold is quite low and this means that some people cannot access such courses.

A question was asked regarding the costs of psychological assessments but I do not know about this. Bray Partnership provided some money for private psychological assessments at primary level two years ago because some schools in Bray were arguing that it was taking so long to obtain assessments that children were moving from class to class and passing through the system without ever being properly assessed. I do not remember the particular level of funding but perhaps my colleague, Ms Anne Hughes, does.

Ms Hughes

Within the association we charge €350 and private assessments cost between €400 and €500.

Chairman

I thank the delegates for their contributions.

Sitting suspended at 1.35 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.

Chairman

We will resume our deliberations on submissions sought by the committee on the issue of adult literacy. The committee would like to thank all those who sent in written submissions and also the groups attending this session. Copies of all the submissions have been circulated to members.

I am delighted to extend a warm welcome to all our guests and thank them for coming. This part of the meeting will be taken up with five-minute presentations from each group. Presentations should highlight the main points of written submissions. Due to the number of organisations to be heard today, I ask our guests to limit their presentations to a maximum of five minutes. When the presentations have been completed, a question and answer session of approximately 65 minutes will follow. I am sure members will have a number of questions to pose on various aspects of concern.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but that same privilege does not apply to those appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We will now hear five-minute presentations from each group followed by questions from members. We will then come back to the delegates. We will start with Mr. Gerry McAleenan.

Mr. Gerry McAleenan

I have provided my initial submission for the committee and have broken the three-page document into bullet points to expedite this process. I work for Soilse, a drug rehabilitation programme funded exclusively by the health board — now the Health Service Executive, northern area. We have two facilities: one for people on prescribed medication, which is primarily methadone; and a second those who are drug free. Our work is done on the basis of a non-residential daytime programme. Primarily, we offer vocational training and adult education. Our aim is to work with recovering and stabilised drug addicts, encourage their personal development, use their experiences as a learning modus and work through groups. Our methodology is group centred, adult educational, facilitative and critically developmentally focused.

Our techniques include facilitation role plays, field projects, art actions, peer groups, education in buzz groups, debates, self-directed learning and speakers. The approach we take is quite informal. The constituency of people with whom we are working — recovering drug addicts — have generally dropped out of the education system at an early age. Their participant profiles appear on the second page of my presentation. I have given a balance sheet of some of the individual characteristics of the people with whom we work. They are on the margins of society and are immersed generally in the drug culture or subculture. They have little self-worth because they have been immersed there for some time and many of them would have severe self-loathing, no hope, no options and no opinions for the future.

Attitudinally, situationally and institutionally, the people in question are isolated from the mainstream. Educationally, many would have left school early and would have specific learning difficulties, including literacy problems. They have a complete inability to recognise any vocational learning or interests, no cultural work and very often few role models. Their learning difficulties result from a triumvirate of issues. The first is social disadvantage. The second issue concerns undiagnosed or unaddressed specific learning problems, such as dyslexia, ADD or ADHD. The third issue results from drug use and the attendant difficulties that creates in a person's life.

The evidence to substantiate marginalisation from the education system and the difficulties with literacy is, to some extent, compelling. We are aware of the 1995 international literacy survey which is cited in the national development plan. In our context, research done by Dorman Jones in 1999 in respect of a cohort of 94 found that, on average, six out of ten surveyed did not have positive school experiences. Some 50% did not sit any examinations and only 8% completed their leaving certificate.

As regards our literacy assessments for 2004, some 50% were on the lower two levels, which accords with the ILO surveys. During the past year we have worked from the national development plan and taken on the social inclusion agenda, through the back to education initiative, with the VEC. Of the approximately 80 people with whom we have worked, 35 had no formal qualifications, 39 sat their junior certificate and six sat the leaving certificate. Some 50% did not finish school. The outcome of our work with them was encouraging, however, in that 69 participants were awarded some degree of FETAC certification. It was also encouraging that 54 people progressed to further options.

Our approach to addressing literacy has been on the basis of creating a partnership in recent years with the VEC. Whenever individuals present with an addiction, we carry out a holistic assessment. During this, particularly in educational terms, we assess their literacy competence. That includes a basic education assessment followed by a functional literacy assessment and a pre-programme engagement where a person has acute literacy difficulties and needs one-to-one preparation. If they go into the full-time programme, we have FETAC communications and modules at foundation level where we can work with individuals and build their competencies to participate in the broader range of the programme.

We also have vocational guidance from the VEC which equates to a full-time post. We have advertised for, and hope to select in the near future, a continuing education worker for those who have progressed to third level or similar options.

As regards current gaps and weaknesses in the provision of literacy and basic education, I refer to the bullet points provided. Some of the significant difficulties include lack of access to child care. Unfortunately, in recent times our programme has become thoroughly male dominated.

Basic education assessments and individual education plans should be standardised because we find that different facilitators are practising in different ways. An integrated response is important if a long-term engagement is required for the individual.

As regards tuition, most VEC facilitators now work on a sessional basis. We feel that full-time employees would be of greater benefit as regards cost effectiveness and relationships. More specialist provision is needed to deal with specific learning difficulties. For example, access to educational psychologists should be more seamless. In addition, access to databases is required to collate information in order that a person can be tracked in a care-plan manner, for example, through the Department of Education and Science's database, which is a consideration we would echo. We would encourage that process to be engaged in holistically, given the effect of drugs on the workplace and education, in addition to social reproduction in families who will suffer generational educational disadvantage.

The final part of the submission deals with political literacy. This is the year of education and citizenship in Europe. In dealing with people's addictions and literacy problems, it is also important for them to look at the concept of citizenship. In a straw poll of ten males between the ages of 22 and 32 that was taken by our agency last month, one is currently registered to vote, one would know how to register and eight are not registered. That poll is quite telling as regards the effect illiteracy has in marginalising and isolating individuals from social responsibility, participation and fulfilment.

Ms Angela King

I work in the HSE, northern area, and my brief relates to health promotion. We operate under the aegis of the population health directorate. I will start by telling a story which is very relevant. It concerns a group with which I was working last year, along with one of my colleagues. We were running a holistic health programme entitled "Being Well". The group was located in Balbriggan, north county Dublin. The women with whom we were working said they found it difficult to concentrate. We asked them what they needed to do to help with that. They said that they had to rush to attend the course after leaving their children to school. We suggested that they eat breakfast before starting and they said that would be great. We were able to provide them with a healthy breakfast and then they were able to concentrate. After a few weeks, they got to know us a little bit. They said that the situation was terrible because we were talking about physical activity in the programme but that they could not bring their children out to play because it was not safe. The difficulty is that there is no playground at our facility. We asked them if they voted but they said that would not make a difference. We also asked them if they talked to their local politicians and they said that would not make a difference either. As I wondered what we could do, we introduced them to a concept of field analysis and lobbying. As a result they went back to the people with whom they were working and said they were interested in learning how to vote. They had a module on the process of democracy and voting. It is a small group but they all registered to vote and the good news is that Fingal County Council through the money allocated to it by the Government has made provision for a playground within the area. That is what it is about at the end of day. It is about people being active, taking on responsibility and doing something with it. They also brought some of the councillors along and told them where it was. It is powerful and it is about people taking that power and being active in it.

I work in health promotion. Health literacy is about the cognitive and social skills that affect the motivation and ability of individuals to assess, understand and use information in ways that promote and maintain their health. It covers a range of issues. The approach used in population health is a new concept in the public arena but it has been around for a while. The approach aims to reduce health inequalities and improve the health status of the entire population and subgroups of the population. It is not focused on the individual or personal lifestyle. It focuses on a range of factors that influence health or populations throughout life. Frequent reference is made to the determinants of health, which cover environmental conditions, social and physical environment, individual lifestyle factors and biological and genetic make up. That provides a broad picture. If it is about my environment, that does not necessarily have a great deal to do with health services or the Department of Health and Children but it has something to do with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and other Departments. The population health approach requires all sectors to work together to address the determinants of health because they are so broad ranging. This should be done in a systematic way in order that an ad hoc response is not provided. That is what makes a difference.

Literacy is not only the major influence on health status, as it is also a major factor underlining other determinants of health. I have included a number of examples in the submission. For example, a parent may give a child medication incorrectly, which could have serious consequences for the child, who may not respond and could end up hospitalised or dead. A parent could incorrectly make up a formula feed or dilute something that should not be diluted or vice versa. This is not done because the parent has bad feelings towards the child. Most parents want to do the best for their children. Very often people who have poor literacy skills in the workplace end up in low skilled or unskilled jobs which involve greater risk. They may work on building sites or so on, which carry greater risk and they are not able to take on health and safety issues as readily as others. Statistically, more accidents and injuries are related to this issue. If people are not sure how to use preventative mechanisms as they go through the health system such as treating illness at home or referring to appropriate literature to keep their families healthy and safe, they may end up using hospital services when they have reached crisis point rather than visiting a doctor or doing something preventative at home sooner. It is about working with people at different levels rather than blaming people because while there is the individual, there is also society, in which people live and work. These are indirect effects of literacy on health.

Literacy and poverty are closely linked. Literacy affects employability and, therefore, determines what jobs one is more likely to end up in. Most doctors and politicians, for example, are well paid. Literacy also affects employment options and income potential which, in turn, affects whether one can move out of poverty. I refer to flexibility and adaptability. When we are young, most of us start off being told we will get a nice permanent pensionable job but there is no such thing anymore. Most people change employment as their lives and conditions change. As a result, the markets are changing. If one is not flexible or adaptable in terms of one's literacy skills, it makes it harder to move in and out of other employments.

The link between literacy levels and unhealthy lifestyles is well documented. People with low literacy levels are more likely to be smokers, they do not take the required level of physical activity to ensure good health, particularly cardiac health, they are less likely to use seat belts, child restraints or bicycle helmets and the levels of breastfeeding tend to be lower among them. Literacy levels also affect people's confidence and willingness to engage in democracy as a process or to lobby for various resources. Certain areas do not have the same resources because people's voices are not heard. It is also critical in terms of people making their voices heard and improving the environments in which they live and work.

With regard to recommendations, there is a need for endorsement and support by the Government for a population health approach that covers all Departments to address determinants of health, which include literacy. Health literacy should be on the agenda of policymakers in all sectors and at all levels to ensure they are aware of health literacy and list the consequences of their decisions. It must be a factor in the way they think. Supportive environments are critical and can be addressed at many different levels. It is not only down to the individual. When an individual enters a building, there is a question about how accessible it is if he or she has poor reading skills. How can information be accessed? Is it easy to negotiate? The recommendation is that public services should ensure their services are more literacy friendly. The plain English initiative, which is operational, and literacy quality award schemes are examples of how that can be addressed.

Ongoing support is needed for initiatives in place in communities. We have worked with other agencies and developed initiatives for pre-school children in disadvantaged areas, breakfast clubs, and adult basic education programmes and family support programmes, which can support children and families both to keep children in school and to provide subsequent education for adults who want to return. However, not everybody wants to go back to education as an adult for various reasons. A systematic approach to literacy and health should be developed within the HSE in the planning and delivery of health services and that is applicable to other services. Public bodies should provide resources for literacy awareness training, plain English training and workplace literacy programmes for staff, to which we have links. Literacy has been raised as an issue and that has led to workplace literacy programmes, which have been well received.

Partnerships should be developed to address literacy between providers, adult learners and employers to run staff literacy programmes and literacy awareness training. We have linked to local reading and writing schemes, particularly, the Ballymun adult reading and writing scheme and the Larkin scheme. Both of them have been great in supporting us but they have also proofed some of our materials with us and given feedback, which has been positive. Partnerships should also be developed regarding family literacy initiatives, which are a recent addition to family learning schemes and workplace literacy programmes. They are vital for equipping people at a broader level in regard to literacy. Research should be ongoing into literacy and health as determinants of health.

Mr. Jack Byrne

The submission was prepared by the Dublin Community Television Adult Education Thematic Content Group which works with groups such as NALA, DALC and others to develop programming content for the new channel coming on stream to address needs in adult education and literacy, an important part of our work in developing the community television channel for Dublin.

It is recognised that adult education has long been a core component of community and development strategies as will be evident in programmes at home and abroad. There is a growing acknowledgement globally of the role of communication in this area. The use of media is now recognised as a key resource. Currently, there are approximately 500,000 adults in Ireland with literacy problems, an enormous challenge to all interested in tackling this issue. A range of initiatives will be required. We do not suggest that community media, radio or television, can solve all the problems but we are suggesting it be an integral part of the mix of interventions.

Community television is set to become a reality in Ireland. In that regard, we have made an expression of interest to the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland and are at an advanced stage of negotiations with NTL on the matter. The channel will be received by cable. We understand the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland will by the end of this year issue applications for the licence for Dublin. Our group is well positioned to obtain the licence and will, we believe, be successful.

The group is based on the principles of participation, empowerment and diversity and as such seeks to involve community organisations in the development of programming. It is a new way of producing television programmes. Programming will be not made by stations such as RTE or TV3. We will attempt to involve at an early stage community agencies and organisations in making the programmes given they are the ones with the expertise. Most of the people involved in the group gained their information technology expertise through community development and recognised the need for this type of community media. I would not know one end of a mixing desk from the other but I am involved in the development of community radio and television. I deal in the main with the social application of the technologies. I believe it is our role to make available this facility to other agencies and organisations.

The broadcasting fund due to come on stream is designed to support community content, including support for adult literacy. However, its remit is the support of programmes and that leaves a yawning gap in resources which is of concern to those of us involved in the development of community television given television programming will be much more expensive to establish than radio programming. Nevertheless, we recognise there is a need for it. We welcome consultation with the Department of Education and Science on this issue.

Community media, radio and television, are ideally placed to provide targeted locally designed initiatives to suit the educational needs of different groups. Community television has created a structure that facilitates the networking of community and voluntary groups directly engaged in and representing disadvantaged groups. Organisations such as Paveé Point representing Travellers, OPEN, the One Parent Exchange Network, Youthreach, LYCS, NALA and St. Vincent's Trust among others are actively engaged with us in developing ideas for programmes. That is an idea of the type of approach we are taking. The group does not view itself as a producer of content rather it is a facilitator for others with the expertise to do so.

One of our recommendations is that the Department of Education and Science consider opening a consultation process with community television groups and the community and voluntary sector to find the best way to address adult literacy needs through community television. Community television offers a great possibility for outreach strategies. The aim of outreach is to increase participation in community activity. A tool, such as community television, if employed for adult literacy can be extremely effective. Its popularity means it attracts people to get involved and its immediacy can provide obstacles to participation such as dependency on text and classroom learning.

Community media have the capacity to build a sense of identity, a key to how adult education programmes can be delivered in a significantly different way to other broadcasters. It is specifically aimed at engaging those most marginalised in society in the design of initiatives that best support their learning needs. We are speaking in this regard of capacity building across the community and voluntary sector. It is a way of bringing people together to discuss the problems and how best to solve them.

The model of which we speak will not work unless organisations such as those around the table today become involved. The group also recommends the undertaking of research to produce innovative ideas for programming and content for literacy needs. Organisations need to be facilitated and resourced to engage with their community television and radio channels in order to designate work or time to these activities. We recognise, from our ten years involved in radio, that while many organisations agree an idea is good they may not get involved. We are offering them appropriated time and are giving them the responsibility to develop the content. However, while they may be interested they know it will mean a particular person devoting all of his or her work time to suddenly becoming a radio producer. The development of community television and the use by organisations of television in this way will require resources.

The group has also set up a media co-operative. The fundamental principle of community media is democratic not-for-profit ownership. We have set up a project in the Northside Civic Centre in Coolock. Near FM which is located at the centre has been on air for almost ten years. We will soon set up a community television production unit. The Dublin community television service will be a channel on NTL but the programmes will be made around the city. We will be but one production unit making programming about our area or the city in general and adult literacy will be part of our overall programming. There will also be other set up points around the city making programmes.

For those interested in technology, we have established a wireless local area network van the mast for which is located on the rooftop of Coláiste Dhúlaigh. The mast covers a radius of three or four miles and allows us to visit places like sheltered housing and other areas of disadvantage and to introduce to people there Internet and web facilities and so on. With a little imagination information and communication technology can be used for an array of empowerment and community development projects, not least adult literacy. The potential of community media to provide empowering learning and advancement opportunities is well known in the community sector. The community organisations with which we are currently working recognise its benefits and we believe it should be recognised at policy level.

If the service is to be effective it will require a dedicated budget for facilitation, production, training, promotion and research evaluation. The Department should consider opening consultation on adult literacy initiatives with the community media sector. The remit for the service would be best placed with the further education section of the Department of Education and Science. It is necessary that at least one person, possibly at senior management level, be designated to consult and liaise with the community media to ensure proper resources are put in place. The will and support for such a structure is growing at grassroots level. While we are familiar with the technology we need an adequate and timely response from the State.

Ms Eithne Cunneen

I am adult literacy organiser with the City of Limerick VEC. Given I have only five minutes to make my presentation, I will not speak about nitty gritty day-to-day issues or on the six areas covered by the submission. Previous speakers dealt eloquently with some of the issues.

I will give an overview of staffing and structures within the City of Limerick VEC. A strategic adult education plan was developed within the CLVEC in 2002. The adult literacy service developed a plan at approximately the same time and this plan dovetails with the wider CLVEC education plan in that we have similar goals etc. As a result, the staff in the overall adult education service work closely together to provide an integrated and cohesive service, probably one of the most integrated adult education services in the country. Yesterday, for example, in Limerick we invited community personnel to talk about various adult education programmes, including staff from VTOS, Youthreach, community education, BTEI, etc.

This team approach is replicated within our literacy service. During the years, particularly since the budget was increased significantly in 1998, we have built up a team that works to meet the needs of adults with reading, writing and numeracy difficulties as best we can within our resources. That staff structure has been built up in the past seven years. It includes an adult literacy organiser, ALO, such as myself, some part-time and full-time tutors, resource development workers who work around specific projects such as workplace literacy, FÁS-funded return to education programmes, managing volunteers, development of IT, etc. We also have initial contact workers who work with learners initially on assessment and on a one-to-one basis. We have guidance councillors who are critical to the progression of learners within the service. As the committee knows from hearing the issues raised by previous speakers, learners need guidance and counselling to progress in adult literacy.

We also have volunteer tutors. Most literacy services depend primarily on volunteer tutors to provide tuition, but while they are an integral part of our service, we have a good paid staffing structure within the CLVEC. As most of our staffing structure involves secure employment conditions, there is commitment and professionalism among our staff. This has not happened overnight, but has been built up in the past six or seven years as best we can.

As a result of the team work that has taken place during the years, we have an amount of collaboration with a multiplicity of agencies throughout the city, such as the Department of Social and Family Affairs, FÁS, Limerick City Council, local employment services, etc. This results in meaningful engagement with learners. It is one thing to get the learners in the door, but it takes significant staff resources to keep them. The issue of staff is not just a numbers one. We need staff to ensure people stay and make progress.

Sufficient staff resources ensure we have quality innovative provision, such as family learning which was mentioned. The more agencies that work together, the more the stigma relating to literacy difficulties is reduced. Meaningful collaboration does a lot in this regard. A particular example in Limerick city is an action plan developed in St. Munchin's parish on the north side of the city. That involved a group of people developing an innovative action plan which we hope to implement over the next few years and which will engage as many people as possible. If successful, it may be used as a model in other areas. The icons on the handout are meant to represent team work and unity.

Lest the committee thinks everything is rosy in Limerick city and that we have no problems, I have mentioned the challenges facing us on the handout. We could spend the day talking about challenges in adult literacy or any other field. However, because I only have five minutes, I have highlighted the three challenges that might underpin many of the smaller, yet still significant, challenges with which we have to deal day to day.

The first challenge has been mentioned by previous speakers. We work at local level with the local city council, the local employment service, FÁS and social welfare offices, but we can only do our best in our engagement with them because they have a different agenda. I do not say this in a derogatory sense, but they have other work to do. Our work is to get their learners in our door. Teamwork and collaboration must happen at Government level with the various Departments, for example, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government vis-à-vis employees in local councils, the Department of Health and Children and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with regard to workplace issues. They must, for example, come up with focused guidelines or directives with regard to the release of employees. We get directives from the Department on our budget to engage with the employed and with businesses. However, unless there is a well-thought out strategy at national level that focuses on specific initiatives, the directives are very challenging for us. Another case in point is the move to increase the student-tutor ratio on the FÁS-funded return to education programme. These initiatives must be made at a national level in order that we can engage with the relevant persons.

A second challenge is the different structures of the various VECs. Although we have built up our literacy team in Limerick, each VEC is different. The committee heard from different VECs yesterday and probably knows that in the absence of clear direction from the Department of Education and Science there is a different modus operandi within each VEC for recruitment of staff and qualifications required etc. for each role within the literacy service. VECs need clear guidelines in this regard to ensure a clear career path within the service.

The literacy budget comes to us as one lot of money and is not divided into pay and non-pay. Although there is a small increase in the budget each year, it does not even cover salary increases for benchmarking and wage agreements. Just as in VTOS, there should be a separate pay budget so that wage increases do not come from the non-pay element of the budget which covers resources, equipment etc. These three challenges underpin many of the smaller challenges on which I could have spent more time.

Deputy O’Sullivan

I welcome the delegations and thank them for coming before the committee. The mix of presentations is very interesting.

I will begin with Mr. McAleenan on a question I asked this morning regarding peer education which was mentioned by somebody representing a Traveller group. I imagine peer education is effective with the type of people about whom Mr. McAleenan spoke, those with low self-esteem who might be helped if they saw someone within their own group make progress. Will he elaborate on that? The people with whom he deals probably have difficulties with regard to family and children etc. Does it help to interlink the children's education with what he is trying to achieve with adults?

Again this morning, somebody referred to how to reach people through the health services and I have a question for Ms King in this regard. One suggestion was that people attending pre-natal clinics should be informed of opportunities to access literacy services. The point was while many men could be reached through the workplace, mothers at home with literacy difficulties were not always easy to reach and it was suggested that they could be reached through the health service. While it might be possible to reach men in the workplace, women with literacy difficulties particularly mothers at home are not always that easy to reach. It was suggested that as they interface with the health services there might be opportunities to identify those with literacy problems. I would be interested to hear Ms King's comments on the matter. We are trying to make linkages between what has been said by the various groups appearing before the committee in order to make proposals drawing on those contributions.

I have one question for Mr. Byrne. I was interested in the concept of using local community television as a tool for literacy. Obviously the RTE "Read Write Now" programme and other similar programmes are very effective. Should those applying for community television and radio broadcasting licences be required to include information or the opportunity for organisations like the VECs to present programmes on literacy? I believe Mr. Byrne referred to 500,000 adults, which indicates that many people are not being reached and will not be reached by written advertising. Other media may be very useful in reaching out to such people.

I give a special welcome to Ms Cunneen of the City of Limerick VEC from my constituency. She said that while getting people in is one matter, it is all about keeping people in. Has she found any ways of keeping people in literacy schemes? Earlier somebody suggested that a pay element is very helpful particularly to those on very low incomes. She referred to one scheme in which she was involved for which the pay came in a lump sum at the end. In that case the payment was not very much and the participants still received their social welfare benefits.

The issue of return to education came up yesterday. Any evidence we have had so far indicates that a good level of interface over many hours per week and in a concentrated number of weeks is needed to make progress in literacy.

Deputy English

Motivation is probably one of the biggest issues for Mr. McAleenan's clients. Those who are in and out of business, in particular, will have become accustomed to a less energised life and will not want to push themselves. What is the best approach in this regard? Is it through additional staff to allow for one-to-one responses to programmes? Should there be more of an effort to link together the different programmes such as literacy, health and so on as part of job training, getting them back into the community or more involved? The key is to get people interested and motivated enough to do something to make their own lives better and get involved. It seems to work better when they have children. In particular, fathers of a child reaching a certain age realise they need to improve themselves.

While I asked this question this morning, I did not hear the answer as I had to leave early. When the HSE identifies that people have literacy problems through other services it provides, how does it point this out to them? I come across many people who do not want to admit to having such difficulties. We all have difficulties in different areas and it can be hard to admit this. If Ms King or others in her organisation can spot it what can they do? The same question probably applies to all four delegates before the committee.

One of the major issues we have discussed in the past two days was how to relay the message and Mr. Byrne's way is one of the best to do it. The media are key in this regard. While posters and leaflets are adequate for following up, they are not key in getting the message across in the early stages. Television and radio are the way to get the message out and encourage people to come and participate. As we discussed this morning we may need to have a video or DVD that can be shown in many different places, including on television and in places like banks and post offices, to create awareness and let people know about the services available. Is there any link between the agencies in developing such a promotion? We must firstly identify the problem and then know where to go after doing so.

In discussions with many of the VECs in the past two days, it is clear that buildings and access to them represent a big problem. Clare VEC discussed having a mobile service. Does Ms Cunneen have any comments in this regard? Would this be appropriate for Limerick? Deputy Gogarty is not here. He usually asks what she would change if more money were available. The same question applies to the other delegates. What are the main priorities in the different areas?

Deputy Hoctor

I have one question that may be relevant to all four delegates. I thank each of them for their presentations. How are they working with the non-national groups bearing in mind the difficulties in accessing and helping them? How do they make those groups aware of the various services available to them?

Senator Fitzgerald

I welcome the groups. I should declare some bias with regard to two of the groups. I know Mr. Byrne has been involved in community development work for approximately three decades.

Mr. Byrne

It feels like four decades

Senator Fitzgerald

This makes us both very young. I also declare a Limerick interest in that I am from Doon. While I welcome the Limerick group, I equally welcome the other groups. Further to Deputy Hoctor's question, ESOL is the programme targeted at non-English speaking people. How do the various groups deal with this aspect? What is the calibre of tutor who delivers the ESOL programme? Is it delivered by the same tutor who delivers other programmes? Are they happy with this and how do they believe it could be improved given that they have target groups with English as their first language and target groups with very little English?

We all acknowledge the huge potential for using television as we have seen with the RTE programme "Read Write Now" as already mentioned by some members. Mr. Byrne envisages a role as facilitator encouraging and empowering communities through the medium of television to come together and produce their own programmes. Various people involved in and committed to literacy for some time might feel that television as a medium has huge drawbacks. The question of sustaining interest applies to all groups here and to the groups that have already appeared before the committee. Using the medium of television it is very easy to switch channels. A programme, such as those run by Mr. McAleenan or Ms King involves a small group or even one-to-one, which helps in motivation and evaluating personal development. How do the groups evaluate learning outputs? In terms of personal development is this important? I have a question for Mr. Byrne. How does the medium of television have the facility to evaluate learning outputs? As one with a teaching background some years ago I know how to try to evaluate learning output. I am not clear on how one can do it using the medium of television.

I would like to speak about some of the other issues which have arisen today, such as task force-driven objectives and the delivery of literacy education for life. Do Mr. Byrne and the other witnesses see conflicts between the two? Are they mutually exclusive or are they complementary? How do the witnesses deal with such issues in their respective roles? Perhaps I am wrong, but I understand that most of the funding that comes through the European Union is officially deemed to be labour force-driven funding. If I am wrong, I ask the members of the delegation to correct me. If the funding is labour force driven, is there something we should be doing in that regard as politicians and parliamentarians? Perhaps there is no problem at all — it may be the case that all the groups can tap into the funding irrespective of the channels it officially comes through and the headings under which it is filed. During the years, all politicians have wondered whether primacy is given to one rather than the other.

I wish to discuss the intergenerational aspects of the literacy problem. We all know of parents who were illiterate or literate at level 1 or any other low level determined by the OECD or the Department of Education and Science. How do the delegates, in their various capacities, envisage we can help to empower parents to empower their children? If parents suffer from acute illiteracy, it is natural that their children will be at a huge disadvantage from the time they are born. It does not matter whether we are talking about a lone parent or a married couple. Do the members of the delegations have any comments to make in that regard?

I was interested to listen to the representative of the City of Limerick VEC speaking about progression. If one starts to target those with the lowest level of literacy within the structures which are in place, it is obvious one will be interested in the idea of progression. Does the VEC provide a seamless progression from the lowest level to the higher levels? Does it provide ongoing supports, such as one-to-one support? If so, does it get enough back-up for such supports? How does the VEC think its structures are working? I was interested in the reference made by the representative of the City of Limerick VEC to those who drop out of the system. Sustaining interest is a serious issue that is found throughout all levels of education. If one succeeds in getting an individual to become interested in a literacy facility or if one succeeds in promoting literacy within a target group, one will have achieved something. However, one will then face the bigger challenge of sustaining that interest. How can one sustain that interest on television, for example, given that one can switch channels? Are there any innovative initiatives within the rest of the structures to help to sustain interest?

Senator U. Burke

I welcome the representatives of the various groups. The joint committee has received many submissions from those interested in adult literacy and adult education. The area in which Mr. McAleenan is involved is one of the most dangerous, when one considers the clients with which Soilse deals. How does Soilse identify its clients in the first instance? When the drugs court was established by the Government some years ago, a designated member of the Judiciary was assigned to it. The judge in question has spoken on numerous occasions about his frustration with the follow-up services offered to those who come before the drugs court and are expected to follow a specific programme of rehabilitation. I accept that the system has been a tremendous success in individual cases, but it seems from the report in which the judge expressed his frustration that there are many shortcomings in the level of provision of back-up services. Does Soilse intervene before or after the drugs court has finished its involvement in individual cases? Is it associated in any way with the process? Is it connected with the courts in such instances?

I would like to discuss with Ms King the involvement of the health services in this area. I understand that adult education is usually offered on a one-to-one basis. The submissions we have heard today and yesterday have highlighted the need for a one-to-one approach, the reasons for which are obvious. The one-to-one approach is a common denominator with the approach adopted in the health service. However, we cannot identify any particular reasons for the reduction in literacy and numeracy levels. It should be possible to make community applications under the health system. Much more interdepartmental work should be done, specifically with the Department of Education and Science, to that end. It seems that such an interdepartmental approach is totally lacking on the ground. Is Ms King based within the community in the northern area of the HSE? Does she work in a group or on a one-to-one basis? It is obvious that the health service lends itself more favourably than other sectors involved in adult literacy to a one-to-one approach.

As Ms Cunneen said, it has been made clear to us in the past two days that there is a lack of co-operation across the various bodies. There is no single comprehensive and focused overall plan. Most of the literacy work that is done is undertaken at community level. I find that things usually come from the top down, but it is obvious in this instance that adult education was initiated at the bottom, initially within the VEC system, and is moving up through the ranks. It has not yet reached the powers that be. I do not know how the committee can assist all the groups which have attended meetings of this committee today and yesterday. How can we transmit to the Minister, or to a collective group of Ministers, that we need to work in a co-ordinated manner, rather than in the piecemeal manner which has been observed heretofore? Such co-ordination is needed in the provision of funding, the development of facilities and the compilation of an overall plan for adult literacy.

The joint committee was informed yesterday that 25% of people have a severe level of difficulties and a further 32% of the population have some problems. An eminent man disagreed with those figures yesterday, but we all know there is a latent literacy problem among people who have not come forward, for obvious reasons. We need to consider how we can get such people on board. The failure to do so is a terrible indictment of all Departments. I do not necessarily refer to individual Governments. The nature of the problem has been clearly identified. We need to find a way for all the organisations which have attended the committee's meetings in recent days to come together to make progress and to make an impact on this problem. I accept that politicians have to take similar steps, but the greatest need lies on the side of the organisations.

Mr. Byrne spoke about the need for communication. The initiative to which he referred is being pursued in the city, by and large, but the need for literacy programmes is much greater in rural areas. The form of communication advocated by Mr. Byrne represents an obvious answer to many of the difficulties found in such areas, such as isolation. Nobody seems to be able to solve such problems.

Chairman

I invite the delegates to respond to the questions asked. We will start with Mr. McAleenan.

Mr. McAleenan

Many questions have been asked. I will answer the questions which struck me of being of importance to Soilse and speak about those matters I have sufficient experience to address.

I was asked about peer learning and the learning dynamic, particularly as they apply to the Traveller community, which has a separate culture that is hard to permeate. As someone who is involved in Pavee Point at committee level, I am aware that it places great importance on the cultural acceptance and cultural applicability of learning. Pavee Point trains its own people and transfers knowledge and competency to the groups with which it works. Soilse uses peer learning when people are making progress in a way that can be seen as influential, role-modelling and culture-forming for individuals who have an absence of direction in their lives. Peer learning is an important component of the process.

As I said, Soilse has a facility for people who are drug-free and a separate facility for people who are on methadone. Those who become drug-free come from a methadone background, by and large. It is considered important for such people to move out of that subculture. The 1999 Dorman-Jones research, which I mentioned earlier, found that 49% of people on methadone do not know anyone or do not have a friend outside that subculture. Such people are very much set in that lifestyle. It is important to break that down and to give people hope, for example by means of peer education and role-modelling. The experiential approach I advocate involves people sharing their experiences, as well as addressing elements of progression and fears which may arise. These fears may relate, for example, to major issues such as family, a matter which members raised. Anything that would destabilise something that is accepted, no matter how it is accepted, can be disforming. The issue of peers is important, particularly in the drug context.

Senator Ulick Burke referred to the drug courts. We must create a paradigm shift. The emphasis now is on proactive movement, rehabilitation, progression and the issues the joint committee has set out to achieve. It is about giving people the currency and marketability to move forward. Peers, role-modelling and such issues are important.

A question was asked about the benefits of this approach. The benefits are obvious. For example, if people get their act together and develop an appetite for learning, they will see the natural gains they are making and these will transfer. Education is highly transferable to the family setting. The consciousness of the person will be raised and the beneficiaries of this will be his or her children and peers. This is extremely important.

Deputy English referred to motivation, a major issue for anybody on the margins. People ask, "What will I gain?" They are leaving everything with which they are secure and moving into a different context. As already stated, motivation can be manifested in different ways. Sometimes our extrinsic motivation creates an intrinsic motivation in individuals. This is achieved through our encouragement, welcoming approach and assertiveness around the individual as well as our non-judgmental approach and by creating attractiveness, that is, creating a new environment and dynamic.

The meeting has discussed in detail the term "adult education", which is holistic. There are other ways to draw people into the process. Generally, people have skills or abilities at different levels and our job, as educators, must be to tap into this and bring them into a dynamic of learning.

Circumstances can also arise in which one exposes the contradictions around the individual and the conflicts that take place in him or her, for example, the inability to complete a task when one's child comes home from school and asks one to do something. There are many different ways in which one can hone in on motivating the individual.

In terms of non-nationals, unfortunately we are not heavily involved in this area and, as such, I am unable to give much of an insight into this area.

Issues arising from inter-generational, systemic literacy difficulties, such as, for example, cases in which two or three generations of a family may not have worked, are all wrapped up in the same package. Senator Fitzgerald asked how these inter-generational difficulties can be broken. Adult education has a honeycomb effect. It is about working with individuals in the hope outcomes will transfer to parents, grandparents, etc.

On the issue of progression and supports, I noted in my presentation that when we carry out a literacy assessment with a person, we will have negotiated with the VEC what I would describe as a de facto partnership. Although I work for the health board, the VEC supplies our literacy tutors and career guidance facilitators. We are also trying to recruit a continuing education worker. In this regard, I was asked about outcomes. If a programme is labour market funded, hard outcomes must now materialise if future funding is to be guaranteed. FETAC and the back to education initiative, BTEI, are mandatory outcomes. A FETAC award gives the holder the currency to move on to post-leaving certificate courses or other courses. Again, this is a major cultural shift, which requires mentoring and support. We hope our continuing education worker will provide this support. On study skills support, the issues of counselling and giving people the coping skills they require for their own progression have been raised.

In terms of an overall plan and policy co-ordination, much of what we have done during the years has again been to negotiate with other agencies to determine how we can work together. These negotiations are a common denominator in this context and considerable energy and effort is invested in them. Having a plan, strategy and set of regulations we could buy into and co-operate on would save a great deal of trouble and create a high degree of effectiveness. Other questions, such as who should do what work, what qualifications they should have and what approach one should take, also arise because resources are finite. With the right resource delegation and the right publicity, attractiveness or public profile, people can move forward. Taken together as a package, this approach will lend itself well in the future.

Ms King

While I tried to note the questions, please forgive me if I do not answer those that were asked. I will do my best.

The first question, on peer education, was directed to Mr. McAleenan. We work with TravAct, an organisation working with Travellers in Coolock. One of our dietitians works with Traveller women in the area and staffs a project to develop a resource pack which focuses strongly on the women's stated preferences in terms of nutrition, specific health issues they faced and ways in which they wanted to manage them. The project's use of a partnership approach worked and it emerged very well from an evaluation. Unfortunately, however, it is being introduced on a staggered basis because we are waiting for the final go-ahead to extend in response to many requests to do so. This project is an example of a peer education programme in which Traveller women approach other Traveller women and speak in their language, reflect their experience and share information. Having received training, they will have accurate information which they will then deliver to others. It is a concrete measure and an example of women being empowered at community level.

In terms of pre-natal options and openings in the health service for identifying and addressing literacy issues, none of us likes someone to point out what might be a weakness. A number of different issues arise in this regard. We are more likely to address an issue if someone raises it in a sensitive manner, it is raised almost organically or the relationship with the person is not power imbalanced. If a woman attending the Rotunda before the birth of her baby deals with a different member of staff on each visit, the chances are no relationship will form and the proper context for having the issue addressed will not arise. For this reason, I am not sure pre-natal care is the best setting in which to have literacy issues addressed.

A person may also lack local links and as a result few opportunities will arise to ask him or her whether he or she has considered joining a local read and write scheme or to offer support in making this decision. Other players in the health system with whom a person may have had contact, for example, a local general practitioner or public health nurse, may be more suitable contact persons if they are appropriately trained. This option has definite potential if the health professionals in question act in a sensitive manner and raise the issue appropriately.

Based on a European model, the community mothers' programme has been operating here for 12 or 13 years and has been shown to be significantly beneficial to children and families. It has had a positive impact and has had excellent long-term outcomes in that children who have been through the programme with their parents have stayed at school and their educational attainment, including in literacy, has improved. The programme has also offered an opportunity to engage mothers in the area of literacy. It focuses on the skill level of the parents involved and is run in a positive rather than patronising way. It is a peer programme which is offered in a limited number of areas such as Ballymun, Coolock and Finglas in Dublin. If it was more widely available to families, we could repeat its long-term successful outcomes elsewhere.

Parents could be linked in to family learning programmes. Instead of asking a parent to do a parenting course, one informs the parent that a programme on child care is available which may give him or her some support in working with the child. These are positive programmes which take an inter-generational approach and encompass literacy, child rearing and health. Participants find that others attending the programme are in the same boat. Like most new parents, regardless of literacy levels, they are all trying to learn how to do things properly.

The health boards have also been involved in the teenage health initiative aimed at encouraging young people to make good health choices. It also examines a broader range of issues around what young people as potential parents do, how they make decisions and so on. The programme focuses on very young parents and links vulnerable young people to services. It is a case of making a connnection with them and getting them on board in terms of having access to people they can trust if they become pregnant. By having that relationship in place, they can engage, say they are terrified of whatever it might be and get the support they need to be able to work through the problem.

These are a number of the initiatives that can help. They are not the only answers but they are potential solutions. The key thing is relationship. If something is said to people who are not ready to receive it, this may be damaging and could prevent them from coming to the service for another ten years. The same would be true if there was any element of coercion and we must be mindful of this.

In terms of identification of problems vis-à-vis literacy and making a recommendation for action in that regard, we have trained our staff and other staff on the floor to promote literacy awareness training in the workplace. It is not the be all and end all and it does not guarantee subsequent sensitivity but at least it is shifting the mindset and raising awareness. Other measures, such as plain English becoming the rule rather than the exception, must be put in place in the long term. A huge stigma is still attached to illiteracy and the more we get the message out there that it is okay to seek help, the better. Similarly, the more it is perceived that workplace literacy programmes are okay and that they are not uncool, the less is the stigma attached to them. This allows people to build up confidence. It is important to be able to engage and that is not only dependent on the written word. Literacy is connected to self-esteem.

A number of clinical dieticians are involved in our service. They found that people were not turning up for appointments for which they had received written notification. The letters were written in a way that a person with a basic level of literacy could understand. The dieticians were so concerned at the no-show rate that they decided to do something about it. One of our staff began to contact people in advance to say that their GP had suggested they come to see the dietician for a chat about nutrition and diet and gave them the details. The attendance rate improved dramatically.

Staff are providing a service and building relationships with people. They can get the message across and work with them. More recently, people began to demand a visual element. I do not know if people watched Gillian McKeith's television programme. I do not endorse her by any means but one of the things she does is to make a pile of all the food that people eat. As a result, some of our dieticians have brought props such as plastic portion dishes of various sizes so people can make comparisons. People have a strong visual sense and this helps to improve communication by showing people what they eat. Props are very important because using everything at one's disposal builds confidence in communications.

They key groups of people with whom we deal whose first language is not English are asylum seekers and refugees. We work with some of the specialist agencies such as SPIRASI, which is run by the Holy Ghost Fathers, BARN, the Blanchardstown Asylum Seekers and Refugee Network, and Access Ireland.

One of the programmes on which we have been working with SPIRASI is entitled "Being Well", which was developed by the Department of Health and Children back in the early 1990s. It is a holistic health programme that looks at a number of different issues. We have worked with the SPIRASI team which has representatives from different countries. We are carrying out a health impact assessment and examining what the programme has to offer and how useful or relevant it might be. It is about encouraging communication and encouraging people to reflect on their own experience and using and adapting that. That is one of the programmes on which we work.

Language development and confidence building relate to people's motivation and the resources they have at their disposal. The different points of contact where people engage with services are well documented. There are different life crossing points. If one has children, one might be more inclined to tap into the services as an opportunity for education. When children start going to school and begin to ask parents questions they cannot answer, they need some support. We tap into those needs. The programmes are applicable to the Irish community as well as people from other countries.

Many of the programmes offer empowerment to parents, children and families. This can come through a different medium such as the community mothers' programme or peer education programmes. We have a healthy food made easy programme which is peer-led and which involves adults working with their own communities.

We use peer-led groups for some of the health and literacy work we do. We train people to work with their peers and they are given special support for the programmes in which they are involved. We also have a number of different partnerships for health. We work with the City of Dublin VEC, homeless projects and foundations projects. We have also worked with SPIRASIand the Traveller community. We also do health promotion in schools and support the social, personal and health, SPH, programme in schools. They are about laying the foundations for good decision-making and building self-esteem and confidence in young children.

Regarding workplace initiatives, it is important to look at all the ways of getting literacy on the agenda in as many places as possible. While literacy is the focus, we also get involved in health fairs. Following a health fair in one workplace, the issue of literacy among staff was identified and in response we provided literacy classes there. Staff were released to do that and the programme has been well received.

Mr. Byrne

I will try to cover as many points as possible. I agree with Deputy O'Sullivan's suggestion on the need for a policy requirement for television stations in regard to adult literacy. By the time Dublin Community TV makes its licence application later this year, the adult literacy groups in the city with which we have consulted will have written the adult literacy content for us and it will be an integral part of our service. Nevertheless, it would be useful to posit a requirement for adult literacy provision for all stations. I am not aware of the situation in regard to commercial television but it would be useful if commercial stations were also obliged to give a portion of their time to adult literacy. National agencies would clearly welcome a wider range of outlets than merely community television and radio. A burgeoning television sector comprising a mix of both commercial and community would be better if all were obliged to provide adult literacy content.

Deputy English observed that it is a good idea to have a strong role for television in combatting adult illiteracy and I thank him for his endorsement in recognising this potential. I reiterate that in order to be effective we must have a nationwide network. Community media must be localised and bedded down in the community it serves. One can then build up a network of community television stations across the State in order to implement initiatives such as this. As an example of how this can work locally, we borrowed the "Read Write Now" programme from RTE and worked with NALA and the local VECs to reach out to people in our locality in north-east Dublin who had not responded to the national campaign on RTE. It is not a case of one or the other. There are levels of activity into which we must tap nationally, regionally and in local communities. That is the advantage of having a good mix of media.

In regard to non-nationals, my radio station has good experience of dealing with refugees and asylum seekers. We took an initiative two years ago which involved handing over the station to a group of refugees for one week and calling it "Refugee Radio". Some people involved in the project panicked and were concerned about what would be produced. However, it did not make a great deal of practical difference to the schedule because the refugees could not reorganise all of the programming in a week. The purpose of the initiative was largely to make a statement but it was also useful for our own employees, who are employed in a working class area of Coolock, to come to terms with and work with so many refugees and people of different nationalities. First, it dispelled many myths. One woman saw a black man, a computer analyst from Ghana, opening websites. This young woman, a lone parent from Coolock, had obviously been reading or listening to media comments about spongers coming into the country. She told him she could not believe that he could actually work the computer. This was a highly intelligent, educated man. It was a good learning curve for our own people, working in community radio, to mix with people from other nationalities and cultures.

Currently we are working with groups across the city seeking to develop a multicultural FM. We are in discussions with the BCI about a station for Dublin. Trying to train people from other cultures with different languages, attitudes and literacy issues has been a learning curve for us. It is interesting work, but it can be a nightmare. However, we are getting there. Some of them who came to realise we were involved with television applications also have moved over to this area. Community media is open, accommodating and accessible. Non-national groups can certainly become part of it. I am not, perhaps, the right person to speak for them, but they seem to be assimilating well into the project and working with people. I hope that will continue to be the case.

Senator Fitzgerald asked a series of questions about people opting out and how to hold on to them. Again, our philosophy in community radio has been that we are not trying to establish a mass audience. We are happy if a very small number is listening to a programme and benefiting from it rather than just using background wallpaper music. We are happy if people listen to, say, a half-hour adult literacy programme, for example, and benefit from it. They may then switch off because a classical music programme is coming on. Another group of people may be switching on for the classical music who did not, perhaps, need the literacy programme. That is the type of model we have developed in community radio. It involves a myriad of services for diverse groups with different interests. In essence it is a community of interest type of station where people pick and choose the programmes they wish to listen to. That is typical of an adult literacy programme. Perhaps it might be of interest to people who do not need the service. However, I believe the majority of people listening intently to an adult literacy programme or watching one on television will have a sense that they need to engage with this type of content. I am not particularly worried about anybody zapping it or knocking it off.

In terms of evaluating the learning outcomes, I accept this is difficult. I am not avoiding the issue by looking to the other organisations and agencies which work with us in developing learning modules. They are better placed, perhaps, to evaluate the outcomes. In any event we can avail of the experience of Senator Fitzgerald as well, no doubt, in evaluating the outcomes. I thank the Senator.

Learning for life is an interesting proposition. We have had this dilemma, even in terms of our community employment scheme. We realise that this is our remit. We have been running it for ten years and a great many people have gone through the scheme. We agonise as to whether we are primarily a training project or are trying to do something for these people as individuals. We have struggled with our conscience and won, I suppose. In the main we believe we have empowered people. We have given them competencies, confidence and self-esteem and most of them have got jobs. We have fulfilled our remit to the community employment scheme, but we also believe we have offered a service to individuals and hopefully empowered a good many. Many of them acknowledge that they have learned a good deal and that their confidence has grown from being involved.

We have also been involved with some EU programmes doing something similar. We try to bring the same type of attitude to these projects. If we can deliver what the EU funded project wants, that is fine. However, our primary focus is on empowering the individuals and building up their self-esteem and competencies. We believe that this, in turn, will lead to them being more employable at any rate. We are fulfilling the objective overall, while leaning towards empowering the individuals.

On inter-generational issues our most recent experience has been in the area of training for IT. We have young people who are skilled in computers acting as mentors to old people. Some people are in their eighties and there is one to one interaction between, say, a relatively young person and a senior citizen. It is interesting to see the type of interaction that is generated. That is happening right across the area of radio. Again, older people who have been involved earlier are training younger people how to use the technologies and this seems to be working well. In terms of inter-generational and media literacy services across our area of activity, we try to supply media support to local efforts. Basically we are not attempting to usurp the efforts of agencies and organisations better placed to do this. We are there to facilitate, promote and encourage people to respond to the initiatives by these groups. We are there to complement and enhance rather than usurp.

Ms Cunneen

The first question I was asked was about engaging with learners. We do not have a problem in attracting learners to our door. There is, however, a problem in engaging with them, student drop-out and so on. That problem will never be fully accommodated and will always be encountered. One way to reduce it is to have a more comprehensive guidance counselling service. We had 630 learners last year. How many guidance counsellors can engage with 630 literacy learners? We had one for four days and another for two, working around progression drop-out issues with staff. That is inadequate. Therefore, more guidance counsellors would help.

Personal development classes are also needed. It must be asked why people do not engage as much as we would like them to. The main reason is fear, under its different guises and manifestations. Many of them will say they are not interested and do not need to improve their literacy. Behind this assertion, however, is fear in many cases, because of particular school experiences. It is difficult to undo those in a year or so, but it is all about personal development and getting people through that phase. We provide as many of those classes as we can to help address the barriers and then engage with people.

Release from their employment is a must for people who are working or involved in community schemes. I mentioned the mainly FÁS funded return to education programme, where workers on community employment systems come for basic adult education classes for nine hours a week. The co-ordinators of that programme say that it takes the first year for people to get comfortable sitting and talking together in a group and to overcome the psychological baggage they may have brought with them. It takes another two or three years for them to move on. No matter what reassurance one might give them about still being able to come even though they are no longer in a community employment scheme, they are not inclined to turn up and we must face reality. The reality is that they need time off. That is just in respect of FÁS. This must be addressed if we are to engage with people who have basic adult education needs in work places, such as local councils, catering institutions and other business areas. This problem also refers to migrant workers. I will deal with them shortly. Because the migrant worker issue takes up such space in the media, we cannot ignore our own nationals who have needs as well, just as the non-nationals do. They are not going to come to classes unless they are released from work. That is to go back to my original challenge and the need for all Departments to work together at Government level to achieve strong policies as regards release. It is easy to say they should come after work, but based on experience, many of them will not.

Where this has happened, in our experience, it has been really successful. We have brought people who are in employment as far as junior certificate level because they were getting the time off. I have mentioned already that we must have professional staff and have to move away from reliance on a voluntary service. I mean no disrespect to the volunteers who are coming in for one hour every week. Professional staff, however, can deal with dyslexic students, for example. If statistics show that one in every ten persons is dyslexic, it may be estimated that five out of every ten coming down our corridors have this problem in its various forms. Professional staff will address that. Essentially I am referring to a learner centred approach. It is a grand term that one sees bandied around. In order to address that objective, however, resources are needed. We have been able to engage with many people, in our situation, because of that learner centred approach.

Those are my ideas as regards engaging and keeping people in the service. As I stated in the original submission, they are not like some product one can move along a conveyor belt from one end of the progression to the next. So many issues are involved that some of them need to attend services for a good number of years — there is no average. I was asked yesterday how long must the students stay with us on average, which is like asking how long is a piece of string. The Government must realise the resources needed in this area.

Much reference has been made to buildings. Significant funding will always be needed to maintain buildings to an adult friendly standard. There are water and plumbing issues in Limerick but we can only deal with them in a piecemeal fashion because we do not have the necessary funding. There is need for significant structural funding to bring buildings up to the required standard.

The County Clare VEC mobile service is most appropriate in a rural setting. Limerick city has many suitable venues in the communities where we work. Therefore, while the mobile service works in a rural setting, it might not be as necessary in a city.

On the non-national issue, we in the literacy services are meant to be jack of all trades. However, if so, we are master of none. We are supposed to deal with special needs issues and non-nationals. A whack of money is put down and we are supposed to flummox away at whatever we are doing. We work with non-nationals and provide language classes for up to 20 non-nationals at a time. However, we must put a ceiling on the numbers because we must also deal with various other groups.

I was asked whether the same tutors take these classes. Our tutors are ESOL — English for speakers of other languages — trained and very experienced. Many eastern Europeans, particularly Poles, arrived in Limerick since EU accession on 1 May last year. They have no problem engaging with the service, unlike our nationals, because they want to get ahead. Our problem is how we deal with all of them. We work quite well with the back to education initiative, BTEI, in ensuring that progression is reasonably seamless from literacy to the BTEI for asylum seekers and non-nationals. However, there is now this additional group of migrant workers. There should be a separate VEC budget for language classes because we are trying to deal with all areas. While VTOS and many of the other services within the adult education service deal with non-nationals, there should be a co-ordinator for each VEC, such as is the case for language classes in the City of Dublin VEC.

How to tackle the inter-generational aspect is at the core of the problem. Ms King touched on this with regard to some of her programmes. The VEC in Limerick provides different models of family learning programmes, to which I referred, as do many other services. One is storysacks, where a range of classes is built around helping parents read stories with their children. Literacy begins with language, which is important for parents of young children. It takes a lot of resources to develop this but we are providing some classes in this area.

I referred to research carried out in St. Munchin's parish in Limerick city, one of the key findings of which was the problems parents had in helping their children with homework, which is often a great motivating factor for them to access our services. We will work to address this problem but we cannot just introduce "help your kid with homework" classes because if somebody has a serious literacy issue, he or she will not be able to work with a sixth class child. We must be creative in our approach. It is about engaging with those parents and, as mentioned by Mr. McAleenan, working with other agencies. It will take a lot of time and energy. The partnerships are the way to go but much time must be invested before a product emerges such as a course, project or initiative.

Prevention is always better than cure where it is possible. We need far greater resources at primary school level, although that might put us out of our jobs. I hope I have covered most points.

Chairman

Our deliberations in the past two days have been very informative. I thank the delegates for their contributions.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.10 p.m. and adjourned at 4.20 p.m. sine die.