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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE díospóireacht -
Thursday, 28 Jan 2010

Teaching of SPHE: Discussion with Dáil na n-Óg.

I thank members for meeting the quorum requirements. Before moving to the next presentation I wish to deal with a housekeeping matter. The committee agreed to invite the Minister to discuss the issues raised at a previous meeting. The clerk has suggested 11 March as a suitable date. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I apologise for the delay in the commencement of this meeting. Dáil na n-Óg council members have come from across the country and it is not good form to keep people waiting. As I explained to some of the representatives outside, there were issues and questions that needed to be dealt with and it would have taken several months to arrange for the people who attended the previous part of the meeting to attend again. I thank the witnesses for their patience.

I welcome Mr. Dara Dunne-Lambe from Leitrim Comhairle na n-Óg, Ms April Duff from Waterford County Comhairle na n-Óg, Mr. Joseph Bradley from Wicklow Comhairle na n-Óg, Ms Clare Stone from Galway City Comhairle na n-Óg, Ms Nicola Thornton from Monaghan Comhairle na n-Óg, and Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh from Dublin City Comhairle na n-Óg. They are here to give presentations on two issues — the response of schools to the whole school evaluation process, and the recently published guidelines on homophobic bullying in schools. These guidelines were circulated by the Minister for Education and Science, and the committee, after meeting with representatives of the Gay and Lesbian Equality Network, recommended that every Member of the Oireachtas receive a copy. I am interested in the views and experiences of the witnesses in this regard.

I do not think the witnesses are here to discuss homophobic bullying. Is that correct?

Ms April Duff

That was not the issue we were elected by Dáil na n-Óg to discuss. We are here to discuss our proposal to implement RSE and SPHE at senior cycle. Homophobic bullying was not on our agenda.

My understanding is that the invitation letter, which should have been disbursed to the representatives, did mention homophobic bullying. Although it would be off the cuff, so to speak, if the witnesses wish to speak of personal or colleagues' experiences in the area of homophobic bullying after giving their main presentation, the committee would be interested to hear this, although it may be difficult for them to do so at such short notice. I apologise for asking them to do this, but the clerk has led me to understand that homophobic bullying was expressly mentioned as one of the issues the group was asked to deal with. If they feel they cannot comment at short notice, that is fine.

It would be unfair to ask the witnesses to deal with those issues if they are not prepared for it. I do not think they would do themselves justice.

There are members of the Gay and Lesbian Equality Network in the Gallery who, having been notified of this discussion, are interested to hear it. I will leave it up to the students. If they feel they are able to speak on this issue, the committee would appreciate their comments, but if they feel they are not in a position to comment, that is fine. We are not trying to land anyone with anything.

I might offer a suggestion. Homophobic bullying should come under the banner of SPHE, which is the issue being dealt with by the witnesses, so some of what they are talking about will be relevant to the issue, but the specifics of homophobic bullying might be best left for another day.

We will leave it to the discretion——

The issue of the whole school evaluation——

Whole school evaluation was also mentioned in the invitation letter.

Ms April Duff

We did not get any invitation letter. That is, we did not see one.

I will ask the clerk to clarify the situation. We will go into private session briefly.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.45 p.m. and resumed in public session at 12.52 p.m.

It is clear that certain correspondence has gone missing in the post and the committee has decided it would be inappropriate to discuss homophobic bullying or home school evaluation because of the mandate given to members of Comhairle na n-Óg who have not discussed the matters with their colleagues. Although we could ask for their personal opinions, we are limited by time constraints and this would put undue pressure on the students. In that context, I ask the committee to agree to write to Dáil na n-Óg and ask for a written response on their experiences of home school evaluation and homophobic bullying in schools. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the delegates for their patience. Members were already reminded of long-standing parliamentary practice but I remind the delegation that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas, or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Committee members are covered by privilege and although we can wrongly accuse somebody, however stupid that might be, we cannot be sued. However, if the delegates were to say something inappropriate, technically they might libel a person. I do not anticipate they will do so but I am obliged to point this out.

After this undue delay, I ask the delegates to begin their presentation.

Ms April Duff

I represent the young people of County Waterford on the Dáil na n-Óg council. We have prepared a presentation for the committee on the work of Dáil na n-Óg and also on trying to get social, personal and health education, SPHE, implemented for senior cycle pupils. We will be delighted to answer any questions members may have on our work.

I shall give a general introduction to the work of Dáil na n-Óg, the annual national youth parliament for people aged 12 to 18 years of age. It is funded and overseen by the office of the Minister of State with responsibility for children and youth affairs. The National Youth Council of Ireland is also contracted to work with the office in organising Dáil na n-Óg.

Two hundred delegates are elected to Dáil na n-Óg through their local Comhairle na n-Óg, or local youth council. There are 34 branches of Comhairle na n-Óg in the country, one for each local authority area. The council is the working group behind Dáil na n-Óg and follows up on the recommendations made by Dáil na n-Óg. Each of the 34 Comhairle na n-Óg branches elects one delegate to become a member of the Dáil na n-Óg council. The council meets once a month in Dublin and works in two groups on the themes selected and voted upon at Dáil na n-Óg.

The role of the council is to follow up on the recommendations made by Dáil na n-Óg and work to make changes for young people in these areas. The council represents both the young people who take part in Dáil na n-Óg and the members of their local Comhairle na n-Óg. Members of the council do research on the top issues voted on at Dáil na n-Óg and then prepare arguments and presentations for adult policy makers.

Each year, two themes are chosen by Comhairle na n-Óg for discussion at the Dáil na n-Óg. For 2009, the issues were physical health and mental health. Delegates voted on the top recommendations made by Dáil na n-Óg which became the priorities of the Dáil na n-Óg council. The physical health group concentrated on two recommendations: that the cervical cancer vaccine should be made available free of charge for all 12 to 18 year old girls; and that all young people should have access to sex education that is appropriate to individual needs, comprehensive and varied in delivery.

It is important to note that most delegates were not aware they were supposed to be receiving relationships and sexuality education, RSE. This was because they were not offered RSE classes, as members will see later in our presentation.

The mental health group focused on the recommendation that the Government needs to implement structured social, personal and health education, SPHE, for senior cycle students, to incorporate positive mental health awareness. Some of our work in the council was done in separate groups and some was done together because of the strong links between social, personal and health education and sexuality education.

I shall pass over to Ms Thornton, who will talk about the work we did on cervical cancer.

Ms Nicola Thornton

I shall talk about Dáil na nÓg's work on cervical cancer. During the past year we researched cervical cancer. We met with Dr. Shirley McQuade from the Well Woman Centre and learned this is the second most common cause of death from cancer in young women in the European Union. We learned that, on average, six women die of cervical cancer each month in Ireland. We discovered the importance of the cervical cancer vaccine and the related screening programme. We met Dr. Tony Holohan, chief medical officer with the Department of Health and Children, who spoke about cervical screening, safe sexual behaviour and the vaccine. He was shocked by the findings of our school surveys and to learn that the Health Protection Surveillance Centre, HPSC, survey in Ireland excludes questions about the sexual behaviour of teenagers. Members will hear more about the survey results later.

We met with Sanofi Pasteur and GlaxoSmithKline, the companies that manufacture the cervical cancer vaccine. We asked them to provide the vaccine to the Government as cheaply as possible because of the recession. We welcome the decision to start the vaccine programme, announced by the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, in January. She met us the day after the announcement.

I shall now pass to my colleague, Mr. Bradley.

Mr. Joseph Bradley

I represent Wicklow Comhairle na Óg. I will talk about the work of Dáil na nÓg on social, personal and health education, SPHE, and religion and sexuality education, RSE, and what we learned from it.

We work with the following important decision makers and stakeholders: the SPHE supports service for teacher training in SPHE; the NCCA education officer for SPHE; students from a Cork school where SPHE is being implemented; a researcher from NUI Galway who evaluates SPHE; the national co-ordinator for RSE; a principal officer for curriculum development in the Department of Education and Science; the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, and the Minister of State with responsibility for children and youth affairs, Deputy Barry Andrews.

From the different groups we learned that all schools must deliver SPHE from primary level to third year. The evaluation shows that most schools are doing this but there are still some issues that must be addressed. SPHE works where there is good teacher training and good support from school principals and the Department of Education and Science.

It is different from other subjects for many reasons. Many teachers still find it difficult to deal with more sensitive issues in class, especially those related to relationships and sexuality education.

Why do we need SPHE in the senior cycle? The evidence is clear when one looks at the many difficult issues young people face. When one examines the many difficult issues which young people are facing, it is obvious that senior cycle is a crucial time in our lives and peoples' development. The need for health education and relationships and sexuality education is more prevalent here than anywhere else. Many reports have found young people believe SPHE can help to give them the information and skills necessary to deal with these important challenges.

I will now discuss what we learned about relationships and sexuality education. RSE is part of the SPHE class until third year. Schools are obliged to continue teaching it until the end of sixth year and all schools should have an RSE policy. The international survey conducted by Health Behaviour in School-Going Children in Ireland does not include questions about sexual behaviour in teenagers. The study on RSE implementation by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency and the Department of Education and Science on RSE in the context of social, personal and health education 2009 results from teachers and principals show that only 60% of the schools surveyed have an RSE policy; 30% of schools reported not teaching RSE lessons in third year; 43% in fifth year; and 48% in leaving certificate year. We were surprised that no young people were surveyed in this study. Although the results are quite shocking, when we compare them to the results of the survey we did which questioned young people on the implementation of SPHE, they are even more startling.

These are some of the factors preventing the full implementation of RSE. Some 82% of schools agreed that an overcrowded curriculum prevents its full implementation. Some 71% of schools agreed that discomfort among some teachers in the teaching of RSE was an issue. Some 67% of schools agreed the pressure of examination subjects was a factor preventing the full implementation of RSE.

For more than three years the NCCA worked to develop a curriculum for senior cycle SPHE. Our proposal is that it should be implemented on a phased basis. We reviewed the curriculum, which is excellent, and met students from a Cork school where it is being delivered because it is a priority for the school concerned. This proves it can be done if the school and management want to do it. In the school we visited, the scheme is very successful. The teachers enjoyed it and the students also got a lot from it. Despite all the evidence, the Department of Education and Science still does not feel SPHE is a priority.

Ms Clare Stone

I will discuss the work which has been carried out by the council. We conducted surveys in our schools during May and early June on the implementation of RSE. The results were startling and indicated a very low level of effective RSE education. We sent letters to a wide range of organisations, looking for their support for our work in getting SPHE implemented at senior cycle. More than 40 letters were received and the committee can see an example on slide 16. At our meetings with the CMO and the Minister, Deputy Harney, we reached an agreement that sexual behaviour questions be included in the next HBSC study in Ireland. We wanted to highlight the difference between the findings of the Crisis Pregnancy Agency and the Department of Education and Science study on RSE implementation and our school survey. We then decided to do a more extensive and detailed survey with young people. We worked with a researcher to develop a survey for young people on SPHE and RSE in schools. We then trained as social researchers and conducted surveys in our comhairles.

Sheelan Yousefizadeh

I am from the Dublin city comhairle and am a member of the physical health group. I will briefly discuss the surveys we carried out recently on the implementation of SPHE and RSE in secondary schools in Ireland. Some 354 young people took part in our surveys, which were carried out this year. We did two surveys, one on SPHE and one on RSE. The SPHE survey was for students from first, second and third year in secondary school and the RSE survey was for fourth, fifth and six years. Of the 354 students who took the survey, 134 students from 68 schools in 12 counties took the SPHE survey and 220 students from 94 schools in 13 counties took the RSE survey, so there was a good representation of schools in the country. If one examines the results, one can see there was a good balance between male and female participation in the survey and, in general, a good representation of different age groups.

On the SPHE survey, 86% of students surveyed said they had SPHE classes in 2009, 84% had SPHE classes once a week and 91% of those students said SPHE is a timetabled class, which is in accordance with the Department of Education and Science guidelines. We asked students if they were aware of the SPHE policy in their schools because, under the law, every school should have one. Only 37% of students were aware that they had such a policy, 8% said they did not have one and 55% said they were unaware of the policy. Overall, only 13% of students responded to the question regarding their involvement in the development of the SPHE curriculum in their schools.

We also asked students many questions on how they think SPHE has affected their daily lives and if it has taught them anything. We asked them if it had helped to develop their personal and social skills, and 38% of students said it had, 30% said it had not and 32% were unsure. Another question was whether SPHE had helped to develop a student's self-respect and self-confidence, and 46% of students said it had. We asked students if it helped them to make better decisions, and 56% said it had. Finally, we asked students if gave them the chance to think and talk about interesting subjects, and 52% of students said it had. Overall, one can see students feel SPHE is helping them to make better decisions and is giving them the environment to talk about issues which they find interesting.

Of the 220 students who took part in our RSE survey, only 25% received RSE classes in 2009 and 75% got none. Some 50.5% of students have never had an RSE programme in their schools, and those who are receiving RSE classes have, on average, only one class a week. In the majority of cases, that is, 72% of students, RSE is not a timetabled class so it is being taught through other subjects. In 32% of cases, RSE is taught through religion and in 21% of cases it is taught through SPHE. It is also taught through science, biology, home economics, social education, health education and life skills.

Of those students who are being taught RSE, 45% said they were taught through guest speakers who came to their schools. The main issues which they discussed were contraception, sexually transmitted infections, crisis pregnancy and abstinence. The guest speakers came from a variety of backgrounds, including medicine, the Crisis Pregnancy Agency and religious groups. We asked students if they found the speakers useful, and more than 50% said they found them useful or very useful.

I wish to refer again to the fact that in 72% of cases RSE is not a timetabled class and is being taught through other subjects, especially religion. Many of the guest speakers are from religious groups. We can see the Catholic Church still has a strong influence on the RSE programme. Some students expressed concern about this. One student said after getting a talk in his or her school, he or she interpreted the message as being that God's input into sex was quite bad and that the speaker ridiculed homosexuality. Another student said a religious speaker said not to have sex before marriage. A student who attended a talk given by a Catholic youth worker said the speaker provided him or her with untrue facts, gave misguided information, only gave the teaching of the Catholic church and was totally biased. We will refer to this point again later in the presentation.

Similar to the SPHE survey, we asked students for their opinion on whether they think RSE is important to them in school, and more than 65% said they agreed that is very important in school. We asked students whether they agreed that RSE covered all the important relationship and sexuality topics which they need to know at this stage of their lives, and only 40% of students agreed with it, which demonstrates that they think there should be more information on the RSE curriculum.

We asked students what should be done to improve the relationships and sexuality education and the following are some of the suggestions we received. The teaching of RSE should be made mandatory; there should be a wider, more in-depth curriculum; there should be more interesting, fun teaching methods; better trained teachers to deliver RSE; more open debates led by young people; more guest speakers; and more focus on mental health issues. Some students even suggested that RSE should be made a mandatory subject or an examination subject because in this way schools would not be able to ignore the subject and would have to put more emphasis on it.

I will conclude the survey results by citing a comment made by one of the students who completed the survey that summarises the reason we decided to carry it out and what we hope to achieve from it. This student said: "Actually teach it. Have a variety of discussions, questions, workshops etc. Teach us everything about relationships and sexuality, don't leave bits out." This is a student's plea for the committee's help. I will hand over to Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe who will speak about how the committee can assist us.

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

I am a member of the Leitrim Comhairle na nÓg. I thank the committee for listening to the results of our survey. I apologise for any difficulty in this respect and hope they found them of interest.

We are not here as a token gesture, we want to get assistance from the committee on the issues on which we have been working. One of the most important points that has come through in the presentation is that we want the members to use their power as TDs and Senators and within their parties to influence the Minister for Education and Science to implement the SPHE programme at senior cycle. This programme has been currently shelved and it needs a push to move forward with it.

We also need all-party support for the inclusion of the sexual behaviour questions in the HBSC survey. As was mentioned, Dr. Tony Holohan and the Minister, Deputy Harney, have already given this their backing and said it was very important but it is important that all the parties support it and recognise its importance.

We also believe it is important that the committee push for the separation of RSE from religion. It is a legal obligation that RSE be taught at school but it must be pushed that RSE is not part of religion; it should be removed from that.

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh gave a brief overview of the most important facts and figures of our survey, which we will publish and launch in the near future. It is the first time, of which we are aware, that the views of young people have been collected on this clearly important issue. The results speak for themselves and we hope that the committee will work with us as a group and in their own parties to improve the lives of young people throughout the country.

We in Dáil na nÓg as, I am sure, do the Department of Health and Children and the committee, want to ensure that young people at local level are consulted and involved in developing SPHE and RSE policies in their schools because they relate to them. How can these policies be in touch with what young people need if young people have not been consulted in the process? We would appreciate if the members within their parties or at local level support the work of Comhairle nÓg throughout the country and do their best to ensure that we are adequately funded. If we do not have funding, we will cease to exist and the hard work we have done will all go to waste.

I urge them to put teen issues on their agenda. We are the voters of the future and these issues matter to us.

I thank the representatives for their presentation. We will now have comments and questions from members of the committee.

This is excellent work. The representatives are right to point out that this is about their lives now. We need to be concerned about their physical, emotional and personal health. RSE is meant to be part of SPHE, as the representatives will be aware. I was impressed by what they said and nothing they said surprises me. I worked as an RSE tutor for a number of years and I helped devise the social, personal and health education curriculum. I have one or two questions for the representatives. Are all students receiving RSE up to junior certificate as part of the SPHE?

Will I ask a number of questions or can I get an answer to a question and then proceed to the next question?

We will get answers as we proceed, if the Senator is brief in her questions.

Are all students receiving relationships and sexuality education, RSE, as part of the SPHE up to junior certificate?

Ms April Duff

RSE is included in the SPHE programme for junior cycle. According to our survey results, 86% of students are getting SPHE. That does not necessarily mean they are getting RSE within that programme. They are supposed to but we have found there has been a considerable input, as Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh outlined, from the Catholic Church in this programme in schools. For example, I go to a Catholic run school and the teachers there are told not to teach RSE within the SPHE.

Who is the current national co-ordinator for relationships and sexuality education and have the delegates discussed this issue with this person?

Ms April Duff

Currently there is not an SPHE co-ordinator.

I asked about the co-ordinator for the relationships and sexuality education.

Ms April Duff

I do not believe there is one.

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

Is it Frances Shearer?

Ms April Duff

I think it might be Frances Shearer.

It believes Ms Duff may be correct on that. Have the representatives discussed these findings with her?

Ms April Duff

We talked to her earlier in the year but we have not met her recently.

It is important that these findings are brought to her. It was mentioned that schools are obliged to teach RSE up to leaving certificate. That is Department policy. How is it obliged to do that without a specific curriculum slot for SPHE? I agree with the representatives that if RSE is included as part of religion or home economics, the teaching of it will be hit and miss.

Why do the representatives believe relationships and sexuality education is not being taught in a comprehensive way at second level and what in their view is the best way to teach it? Do they believe bringing in guest speakers is the best way? I would like them to respond to that point.

Mr. Joseph Bradley

RSE is a difficult subject to talk about. Many teachers still have an issue talking about the sensitive issues such as this one. More teacher training is necessary as is a more structured curriculum, which would give teachers guidance on how to teach this subject. Schools have moved towards bringing in guest speakers to speak on this subject. However, many schools do not know who to approach and they end up approaching religious groups who do not give the proper information, not the information that young people want. We have to move away from that approach. We must build RSE within in schools rather than bringing in people to speak on it.

Would Mr. Bradley agree that based on Dáil na nÓg's survey the way RSE is being taught currently throughout the country is failing?

Mr. Joseph Bradley

It is failing because the teaching of it is not structured enough. In my experience and from our experience gained from the results of the survey, RSE is not being implemented properly. RSE is being used as a study class in many cases and not being taken seriously, possibly because of a lack of a structured curriculum.

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh

Our survey is more detailed than what we mentioned. Some of the issues the Senator raised were asked about in our survey, and I can go quickly through the results. We asked students about the common teaching methods being used currently, and learned that discussions, work sheets and group work are the main ones being used. We also asked them the teaching methods they prefer and they said it was discussion, group work and role play. There is an overlap in terms of what has been happening and what they would prefer.

We also asked them how the RSE classes have worked so far, which is one of the questions the Senator asked. Some 5% of students said they were excellent, 6% said they were very good, 19% said they were good but 39% did not answer the question because they are not getting them. One can note their feedback is not as good. They are not very positive towards the way RSE classes are being run.

In terms of the usefulness of RSE, not many students find it very useful. A total of 38% could not answer the question. It is difficult to say, therefore, what students are thinking when they are not getting the classes. They cannot give a judgment of what they think about it. I cannot even do that because I do not get RSE classes in my school. Therefore, I cannot tell the committee whether I believe it is useful. We can forward this information to the committee because it deals with questions as to what RSE students get and what they would want. If a curriculum for senior cycle will ever be devised, they should really base it on a survey like this where they ask the students what they want from it.

One of the survey's positive findings was that 55% of students who are getting RSE and SPHE in their schools feel it is influencing their decision making. That is the big benefit, making good decisions about one's personal, social and physical health. Would it help prevent more early pregnancy at second level?

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

One can see in the survey results, especially with SPHE, which is much more structured and with which people are much more comfortable, that it works. When it is being implemented properly, it works. We did research. We met with students in a school in Cork where there is a pilot scheme who sang the praises of it. They said it was great to have open conversations.

How did it change their sexual habits?

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

They are more aware. They are aware that they can talk about contraception, STIs and all of these kinds of issues without a taboo surrounding it and making them do things that maybe they do not fully understand.

Is the reason for their confidence around peer pressure around sexuality?

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

Exactly, and around talking to older people, teachers or adults who they trust with issues and matters like that.

Ms April Duff

Also, their knowledge of STIs. Many of us do not get any education. We do not know what STIs are, what is out there, what we can get and what types of contraception are available to us. We need to know that.

It is as basic as that.

The Chairman, who has been generous with the time, was keen that they would discuss homophobic bullying at the outset. There is one illuminating comment in the presentation that alludes to homophobic bullying through the very method of teaching. Could they comment on that?

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh

It is clear what the students are emphasising there. All the comments were made by students who got talks from religious groups. If a religious group is discriminating on homosexuality grounds and if this is what students are getting and are being taught, then how can we expect the students not to discriminate on homosexuality grounds in their classes.

When we heard that, we were quite shocked by the fact that a religious group is advertising this and is acting in a discriminatory manner towards——

It is also going against Department guidelines and it is unhealthy that this is happening.

Ms April Duff

With many of those Catholic groups of which Ms Yousefizadeh spoke, in most cases it is the Catholic groups that approach the school as opposed to vice versa. It is them asking can they talk to one’s students. It is important that the Catholic Church have less of an influence on RSE and its teachings, and that it has less impact in schools.

I welcome Comhairle na nÓg to the committee again this year. First, Ms Dunne Lambe has no reason to apologise for anything that happened today. They all prepared well and gave a great account of themselves, and certainly, I was impressed again this year.

I have a couple of brief questions. A slide in their presentation stated that young people should have access to sex education which is appropriate to individual needs, comprehensive and varied in delivery. Do they see an area where persons might get individual attention? If one speaks of individual needs, then maybe an individual response and persons treated individually is an issue. How would they see that fitting in to a programme?

Ms April Duff

Ideally, RSE is supposed to be taught in a small class situation so that there is a small class number, in an informal setting where there is a relaxed atmosphere and students feel confident to express their views and to have individual attention from the teacher, and that the education is coming from the students themselves rather than just a lecture from a teacher. That gives an opportunity for more individual needs to be addressed.

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

We are aware of overcrowding and that smaller class groups are not always an option. It is a matter of the way it is delivered. If it is delivered in an unstructured way with no real weight given to it, then it is not easy to assess individual needs. However, if the correct environment is fostered where people can raise personal issues in a way they know is safe, and there is confidentiality within the class and it is all right to discuss these kinds of issues, it all comes back to the way it is delivered and where it is delivered.

On what they learned about RSE, schools are obliged to continue teaching RSE up to the end of sixth year. The group's finding is that only 48% did that. The factors preventing full implementation are included in the presentation — overcrowded curriculum, discomfort, pressure of examination. Is that an adequate or reasonable response?

Mr. Joseph Bradley

Not at all. There is considerable examination pressure in one's senior years and, ideally, that would be the main place where one would need SPHE to help one cope with the stresses because that is what much of the SPHE curriculum does.

The discomfort of some teachers in teaching RSE is not really an excuse at all. We need to make the teachers who teach RSE more comfortable being able to discuss these matters and this is where more teacher training comes in.

On overcrowded curriculum, what we are asking of the committee today is to prioritise SPHE. It is a hugely important subject and it is not being prioritised at present. An overcrowded curriculum is a problem but we need to prioritise SPHE over other subjects.

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

It can work. The school referred to in Cork made it work. Those involved made sacrifices. They said they did not need six mathematics classes a week and they got rid of one of them and substituted SPHE, and they all found it to their benefit. They all said it worked and it was not an issue. They still got all their course work finished.

The group has been impressive in terms of how it has got to meet the various key people along the way, and the committee may be able to learn some lessons from it in that regard. I commend them on getting the Minister to agree to have sexual behaviour questions included in the next SPHE survey.

They also trained as social researchers. They might give us an update on how that happened, what kind of training they got and how that worked.

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh

We had a researcher who works with the Department who came in to us. We had a few drafts of the survey before we all took it back to our comhairles. The questions were designed by us, went through us again and we tried to make it as simple and accessible to all the students, and tried to have a simple format so they could answer the questions easily.

Sandra, who was the researcher and who analysed all the information afterwards, trained us for a full day on how to carry out the research and how to bring it to the comhairles. We all found that useful. I think it is something we will use later on as well.

We were trained properly as researchers and we will use that information later on.

I welcome the delegation and join with Senator Ryan in stating to Ms Dunne-Lambe that there are no apologies necessary. What occurred here today is not her fault at all.

The presentation was excellent. There are a few points I picked up in its regard, a little like previous speakers. The presentation states that all schools must deliver SPHE from primary to third year. I am trying to distinguish, to get the facts out here. The presentation states they must deliver it but they do not, that schools are obliged to continue teaching RSE up to sixth year — not SPHE, which does not exist at that point. What the group wants is SPHE to be brought in from junior certificate to leaving certificate, and it to include the RSE, and in the earlier years that the appropriate place for RSE is in the SPHE class, and it is not happening in all schools.

I would suggest that the committee write to the Minister for Education and Science on this issue and raise this question. In my experience, frequently the Department writes to the schools all over the country and conducting various surveys or making various suggestions. In its next questionnaire going out to schools, the Department should ask the following specific questions. First, is SPHE taking place and is RSE a part of it, and if not, why? The location of the RSE within the school timetable is important. The second involves the continuation of RSE from junior to leaving certificate and the third relates to who delivers the class. The latter appears to be a major issue. In that context, the experience in my community has been quite different from that described on page 25. Some excellent guest speakers have delivered classes in the schools in my locality. The major issue for the members of the delegation from Dáil na nÓg probably relates to how such guest speakers are chosen.

There is not much reference to primary school in the document presented to the committee. In my experience, RSE is taught in 5th and 6th class in primary school and that guest speakers are invited to deliver classes. In addition, the parents of students were invited to come to the school on the night before a class took place so that they could familiarise themselves with what was going to be taught. When the class was then taught, children could have an open discussion with their parents about it. That was a good and interesting approach to adopt.

The principle of using guest speakers was also used very well at post-primary level. However, such guest speakers were carefully chosen and it was not a case that someone could contact a school and request to address the students. How guest speakers are chosen is an extremely important matter. Perhaps we could encourage the Minister and the Department to carry out a survey as to how speakers are actually chosen. The experience in respect of the teaching of RSE in my area and also, as a previous speaker mentioned, in Cork has been very good. It would be great if this could be replicated elsewhere throughout the country.

In the context of the HBSC survey, I am delighted our guests had such success with the Minister for Health and Children and Dr. Tony Holohan, the chief medical officer. One of the questions put forward in the presentation is whether it might be possible to attract cross-party support for their ideas in this regard. Speaking on behalf of all members of the committee, I am sure that is something we would all like to happen. Perhaps the committee should write to the Minister for Health and Children in support of the suggestion that the question of the sexual behaviour of teenagers be contemplated within the next HBSC survey.

It is stated in the presentation that 25% of students had RSE classes in 2009 and that the remaining 75% did not have any classes at all. Did the survey in this regard include students in the pre-junior cert group?

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

No, it just refers to senior cycle students.

That is fine. I would be shocked if the total number of students who had received instruction in RSE were that low. In essence, what is being stated here is that RSE is being delivered up to junior certificate, perhaps in the wrong class and with not necessarily the correct guest speaker present. Our principal concern is, therefore, that a very low level of RSE is taught post-leaving certificate.

There are a number quotations included in the presentation at page 25, none of which appears to be positive in nature. Does anyone have anything good to say about RSE? I will never forget the fantastically positive response to RSE in my community. In such circumstances, there must be other communities where things are going very well. If Dáil na nÓg were in a position to provide examples in this regard, others could learn from such positive experiences. If the good examples I referred to can be repeated elsewhere, that would be a good development as would asking the Minister for Education and Science to carry out a survey to discover the current position and how matters might be improved. I thank our guests for attending and for their excellent presentation.

Before I ask our guests to respond, I wish to deal with the proposals put forward by Deputy Wallace. Is it agreed that the committee should write to the Minister for Health and Children and ask that the next HBSC survey should contemplate the issues to which the Deputy referred? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we should contact the Minister for Education and Science requesting that a questionnaire relating to how RSE is taught, the times at which it is taught, where it is taught, etc., be sent to schools? Agreed. In view of the fact that only 60% of schools have a policy on RSE and that some schools are not even aware that they should have an SPHE policy, is it further agreed that a circular reminding schools that they should have distinct SPHE and RSE policies be sent out in conjunction with that questionnaire?

I would go so far as to say that the Department of Education and Science could draft a suitable policy document. It appears the students are finding that some teachers are having difficulty dealing with this subject. If a draft policy document, based on good pilot projects elsewhere, were available, it would make matters much easier for such teachers. All we can do is make suggestions to the Department. Ultimately, the latter will make a decision on how to proceed.

Is my final suggestion agreed? Agreed. The record of this debate will be forwarded to the Minister for Education and Science.

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh

On the survey the committee is going to request the Minister to have carried out, something of that nature was done in the past. Principals were asked how SPHE and RSE were being taught in schools. When one compares what principals and students had to say on the matter, it is obvious there is a major contrast. Sometimes principals and teachers could be stating that students are receiving instruction in this when that is not actually the case. We felt it was better to survey students because obviously they are not going to lie and will tell the truth. We were of the view that principals were not sometimes telling the truth or were not being entirely accurate in what they said. Carrying out a survey of principals will not provide an accurate representation of what is being done in schools.

My other suggestion to the committee would be for it to recommend that students be involved in the making of policies relating to the teaching of SPHE and RSE. As the survey we carried out shows, only 16% of students were involved in drawing up the draft policies. It is important that they should play a major role in drafting such policies.

We were asked if RSE is a major component of SPHE. I have in my possession some information I did not refer to earlier. Students were asked about the main themes that were discussed as part of SPHE and responded that the main themes emphasised were alcohol, drugs and solvent use, physical health and friendship. The themes there were least emphasised were personal safety, communication skills and relationship and sexuality. The latter are obviously discussed but they are the least emphasised. It is important that we should mention this.

Ms April Duff

I wish to make one point regarding school policy on SPHE and RSE. It was stated that some schools may be unaware that they are supposed to have policies in this regard. The survey was carried out among students, some of whom were not aware that their schools actually had SPHE policies. Many students are not aware of the policies that exist in their schools. This is because, as Ms Yousefizadeh stated, in the majority of cases we are not consulted with regard to the making of policies.

Our guests stated that they are the voters of the future. Given that they have been so articulate in their contributions, some of them may also be the Ministers of the future.

Reference was made to a meeting with students from a school in Cork at which the SPHE course has been implemented. Our guests also referred to the benefits the students at that school felt they were receiving as a result of this. They also indicated that the reason it is being implemented in certain schools is because it is viewed as a priority. Did our guests meet the principal or any of the teaching staff from that school? Why is this school different? Did the teachers there receive additional training aimed at assisting them in delivering classes in this subject? Are fewer curricular subjects taught in this school? Is that how it was able to facilitate the teaching of the SPHE course? Our guests appear to be suggesting that the school in Cork would be a good role model for other schools.

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

We met one of the teachers at the school. Essentially, we were due to meet her but she brought a number of her students with her so that they might vouch for what she was saying. We did not discuss the details relating to changes or tweaks to the curriculum. However, the teacher in question was following the curriculum currently shelved and waiting to be rolled out. The basis for the curriculum she was teaching is in place.

With regard to what the Deputy said about fitting the subject into the curriculum, etc., like the majority of schools throughout the country, six mathematics classes were being taught in the school in question each week. Therefore, one day each week there would be two mathematics classes. The board of management of the school decided that SPHE and RSE for senior cycle students were important subjects that one out of six mathematics classes each week should be sacrificed in order to facilitate the SPHE class. The teacher with whom we spoke stated there had been no negative feedback whatsoever as a result of this.

Ms Duff referred to young people not being consulted. Did our guests obtain an explanation as to why this was the case? If not, why do our guests believe students were not consulted?

Mr. Joseph Bradley

In many cases, young people are not consulted. A good example relates to RSE policies. This was just another survey in respect of which young people just were not consulted because those conducting it did not find it necessary to consult them. The survey we carried out was confined to young people only and one can see the huge difference between the two. This shows that it is necessary to consult young people because they——

I agree. However, was an explanation provided by those who had carried out the survey as to why young people had not been consulted?

Mr. Joseph Bradley

No, an explanation was not provided.

Ms April Duff

The Deputy has inquired about the difference between the school in Cork and other schools at which SPHE is not being taught. The motivation and passion of Ms Ger Halbert, the teacher at the school in Cork to whom reference has been made, were what really made the difference. She would have gone to her principal, indicated the importance of the issue and stated SPHE should be taught in the school. Teachers who are motivated and properly trained have the capacity to deliver instruction in SPHE in a really good way. Those who volunteer to do so should be selected to teach SPHE rather than those who have a few free classes and are chosen by their principals to teach it. SPHE should not be treated as a subject which does not really matter. That is what tends to happen in many schools.

I wish to play devil's advocate and ask a number of questions which do not necessarily reflect my opinion. The first point I wish to make is that our guests are bucking a trend. There are a lot more male Members of the Oireachtas than there are female Members. The composition of the delegation is five to one in favour of females. Is this typical of Dáil na nÓg and, if so, why is that the case?

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

No. We volunteered to make the presentation to the committee. The next delegation from Dáil na nÓg might comprise five boys and one girl.

Therefore, the membership of Dáil na nÓg is split fairly evenly?

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh

It is fairly even, but there might be slightly more girls than boys.

I hope the membership of the Dáil and Seanad will be split equally between males and females. Obviously, I hope my seat will not be affected in this regard.

Our guests have referred to political parties taking on board issues that are important to young people. Every political party represented in the Oireachtas has a youth wing. These are: Young Fine Gael, Ógra Fianna Fáil, the Young Green, Ógra Shinn Féin and Labour Youth. The more senior cycle — not just third level — students become involved in these organisations, the more the issues we are discussing will appear on the agenda. In the context of the forum offered by this committee, a record of today's proceedings will be sent to the Ministers for Education and Science and Health and Children and the Minister of State for children and it is hoped they will take on board what has been said.

Our guests referred to the response in respect of RSE. I do not know if there are any Islamic or Jewish second level schools in Ireland. However, there are Catholic organisations which want to send representatives to schools and have them make presentations and put across their views in respect of RSE. As stated, we are not going to discuss today the intricacies of homophobic bullying. However, if the Pope states homosexuality is a sin, it is obvious that a representative of a religious group coming to a school to make an RSE presentation will not mention that aspect.

Most of the schools in the country were founded by the Catholic Church. The State pays teachers' salaries but the schools founded by the Catholic Church have a particular religious ethos. Is it not correct, therefore, that the authorities at Catholic secondary schools or community schools at which there is a Catholic input have a right to dictate the ethos imparted to students? Does not a school have a right to dictate its ethos? If Catholics believe homosexuality to be abhorrent and that we should not be encouraging people to discuss sexuality, particularly in the event that abstinence might be ignored, are they not entitled to say so? Should schools with a particular religious ethos really be obliged to teach subjects that run contrary to that ethos?

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh

I cannot state I am representing anyone when I say this but schools have the right to adopt their own ethos. However, we live in an era when people have choices, about which we should be given the opportunity to learn. It is not right that a school's ethos should prevent students from hearing about such choices. Young people are not being given a choice in the context of making decisions for themselves. Given that we will eventually enter the adult world, we should be given the opportunity to make choices from a young age.

The fairest way to proceed is to cater for both sides. For example, a representative from a religious group could come to a school and put across that group's point of view and a representative from the Crisis Pregnancy Agency could do likewise. It would then be up to students to make a decision on what they had heard. A school cannot impose its ethos on a student. Ultimately, it is the student's decision as to whether he or she accepts that ethos. Stopping students from obtaining information removes their right to freedom of choice and decision.

Under the Education Act, boards of management are responsible for making decisions as to how schools are run. I have stated previously, from the perspective of the Green Party, that student representatives should, regardless of the legal issues that arise, be appointed to boards of management. As matters stand, however, students cannot sit on boards of management. Has Dáil na nÓg made representations to all second level schools or does it plan to correspond with the boards of management of schools in respect of their providing, regardless of the nature of the religious ethos espoused in the schools, a balanced view? The Minister might issue guidelines or letters may be sent to schools. Ultimately, however, boards of management are sometimes even more powerful than the Department.

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

We received letters of support from the principals' association, etc. That is as far as matters have proceeded in that regard. During the course of the working year we have discovered that every school is really an empire. As the Chairman stated, boards of management almost have more power than the Department. Circulars can be issued but who is responsible for ensuring they are adhered to and the recommendations contained in them implemented? That is why we are requesting that matters be progressed and that recommendations be implemented and enforced.

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh

We were hoping the survey would encourage schools to consider different ways of approaching the problems students face. In other words, once they understand how big a problem not teaching RSE in schools might be, they might reconsider the position.

There are three ages of importance in the lives of young people. Obviously, there is the age of consent which relates to having sex, the age at which one can vote and the age at which parental influence should cease. Some parents feel uncomfortable about their children being provided with a broad education and respecting their choices. There are individuals who state they do not want their sons and daughters being taught about STIs or contraception. Where should the line be drawn in this regard? Parents are the guardians of their children until they reach the age of majority. It is not always the school which prevents a subject being taught. On occasion, parents can also have an influence in this regard. Should students make the choice as to whether they should receive instruction in RSE or should parents be asked for their written consent?

Ms Dara DunneLambe

Age-appropriate RSE should be just what it says on the tin, age-appropriate, and it should just be delivered. One would be surprised; the most sheltered people would know more than one would think. People get RSE as low as junior infants in schools with plastic dolls and chit-chat. As long as it is age-appropriate I do not think there is an edge of controversy.

Has there been an issue with parents having objected?

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

Not for us, no.

Ms April Duff

In a number of cases, more often than not——

I presume it is more in primary schools.

Ms April Duff

—— it is the school that will stop it.

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh

In the HBSC survey, we are saying that Ireland is one of the countries that is not putting down sexual questions on it. It was because of the parents' council. In my opinion they have too much influence because once students reach the age of 17 or 18 we are allowed to do other things so why should we not be allowed to make our own decision as to whether we want to get RSE or not? There is a bit of a clash between parents——

Have meetings been requested with the National Parents Council — post primary? Like any organisation, the individuals on it are in situ for a length of time and may or may not be representative of the entire body of parents. However, it might not be a bad idea to meet its representatives.

I have many questions, but I am conscious of the time. It was mentioned that role play had been raised by the students. I am curious about this. I have not engaged in role play for some time, unless one calls the Dáil role play — in many cases it is a lot of stage-managed rubbish. Why did students mention role play? Would it not be embarrassing for them to pretend to be John or Joe?

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh

I shall outline what we are trying to say regarding role play. I spoke to my own comhairle. They are saying they are getting their education through reading the textbooks and doing the fact sheets. By role play they meant more interaction or discussions. It might be embarrassing for the first time, but this is how they can break the ice. Sitting in class reading a book is not going to help in any way to break the ice and let the discussion begin but by doing role play, even if only a few people want to get involved in the role play, gradually students will feel more comfortable to speak about the issues in class. It is just a matter of time for them to be able to discuss with their friends and feel comfortable in the environment. That is the main reason.

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

Role play is a method that allows students to detach themselves from the situation. A student could be dealing with a personal problem but it can be done from a bird's eye point of view getting a different perspective. It is an opportunity to self-analyse and explore one's own way of thinking about things.

The more extroverted students will be more willing to participate than the introverted ones.

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

In life that happens.

That is always the case.

I recently had a discussion with a religion-based group about religion in schools. It held a valid view on the matter. Let us take the example of a primary or second level school where the ethos is Catholic — because that is the largest religious grouping. Representatives of the group said that if it is a Catholic school, a student can pull out of religious instruction. What would be the ideal solution? The witnesses suggest taking SPHE out of religion, which would make considerable sense, but there is an issue with slotting in times. Religion is taking time in itself in any event. Should schools with a religious ethos remove religious instruction from the normal working day and if people want to get religious instruction it should take place after school hours?

Ms April Duff

I think religious views should be confined to a religious class. The religion class is on the timetable. SPHE is a separate timetabled subject for junior cycle. It should be for senior cycle also.

Does Ms Duff believe that the most straightforward approach, however it is done, is to take SPHE out of religion at senior cycle?

Ms April Duff

Yes.

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh

Many schools use the excuse that there is not enough time on the curriculum for an extra subject. When we discussed it we found that the majority of us were getting three non-exam religion classes each week. The majority of us also said that those non-exam classes would be used to do homework and sometimes we do religion and sometimes we do not. For students getting non-exam religion classes, one of those classes at least could be used as an RSE, with perhaps two classes for religion and one class for an RSE. That would mean it would not affect any other subjects like maths or English. There are possible approaches.

As Ms Yousefizadeh said, each school is an empire. If the Minister or a senior official is reading the transcript, the Minister can write to the school and ask it to consider this but he cannot force the school to do it. That is the nub of the issue unless a subject were created. Should SPHE incorporating RSE be an examinable subject?

Ms Sheelan Yousefizadeh

Maybe, if nothing else is going to work and if there are going to be so many other problems, that may be a way to go. Just as SPHE is made compulsory with many schools taking it up, I do not see why RSE could not also be made compulsory in schools. That would mean that there would be no way around schools refusing on the grounds of religious ethos, lack of time, lack of teachers etc.

Making it compulsory seems to be a strong message. I would like to continue, but we have reached our time deadline given that we dealt with two separate groups at today's meeting. I hope the witnesses found the hour and 20 minutes adequate. Are there any additional comments before I bring the meeting to a close?

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

The Chairman said there were many issues he would like to raise. He may get in contact with us.

I have many questions.

Ms Dara Dunne-Lambe

If he e-mails them to us, we would be happy to try to address them and sort them out with him. This is a great opportunity for us also.

While it is probably not the appropriate place to say it here with recording going on, every elected representative is interested in meeting the witnesses in any event. I can separately arrange a meeting as education spokesperson for my party, as, I am sure, could others. I know there is a meeting every year in Croke Park, but sometimes people cannot attend on that date. If Dáil na nÓg had other meetings throughout the year, perhaps it could extend the invitation to elected representatives and more people might attend. I would certainly be interested in meeting to discuss issues further. We already know of two issues, whole-school evaluation and homophobic bullying, to which someone will have to respond at some stage. Again it is not a test; it is just to hear the witnesses' experiences having consulted with their members.

Without being patronising in any way I have been very impressed by the witnesses' articulate contributions and that they are well able to point out that certain matters were not within their remit. I thank them for pointing out that the error occurred somewhere because some people of whatever age might ignore that and just get on. I am glad they are able to stand up for themselves. I hope that forthrightness in speaking up continues and that some of them get into political life or even educational life because I believe some of them could make very good RSE teachers.

I again thank the witnesses for taking the time to travel here. I hope we will be in contact again on various issues.

The joint committee adjourned at 2 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 11 February 2010.
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