JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE díospóireacht -
Thursday, 25 Feb 2010

Post-Leaving Certificate Courses: Discussion with Stand Up for Education.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Peter MacMenamin, Mr. Don Ryan, Ms Annette Dolan, Ms Jackie O'Callaghan, Mr. Joe Kennedy and Mr. Frank McDaid, who represent different organisations but who are appearing before the joint committee collectively as part of the Stand Up for Education campaign. They are here to discuss post-leaving certificate course placement, as well as an aspiration to increase funding on a targeted basis within the education system. As is the norm for those who have appeared before the joint committee previously, I note that members of the joint committee have privilege but it does not extend to witnesses appearing before it. Moreover, members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on or criticise a person outside the Houses in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. MacMenamin to begin the presentation on post-leaving certificate courses.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Nor are they allowed to resign.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Not on one day anyway.

Chairman

Hopefully Mr. MacMenamin can last as long as his presentation.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

Ms O'Callaghan will open proceedings.

Ms Jackie O’Callaghan

Stand Up for Education was born out of the concerns of parents for the education of the present and future generations of Irish students, especially in light of the budget cutbacks last year. It has become a joint effort by parents and teachers, together with other endorsing bodies, such as the Irish Second-Level Students' Union, Aontas, Barnardos and many more. It is a joint effort to further the future and present generations who are in our schools now or who will come into them.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

I express the appreciation of Stand Up for Education for the opportunity to address the joint committee. I will sketch through the main points. Our first point, which has been addressed to individual members at different times, is to suggest a target for educational spending of 7% of GDP. We respectfully suggest that the year 2016 would be a highly suitable target for a range of symbolic reasons. In the spirit of cherishing all the children and so on, it would be appropriate to set such a target 100 years on. While there is a great deal of economic argument on whether 7% of GDP is the best way in which to measure this, that is an argument into which we do not wish to go. Our suggestion calls for a significant targeted increase in educational spending across the board. The point has been made to the joint committee by other bodies and elsewhere, that spending on education constitutes investment in the future and as such, there almost is a consensus by now that it should be perceived, to the greatest possible extent, as being immune to economic cutbacks. I will not rehearse those arguments and will take them as a given because they have been made before the joint committee previously. However, it would be appropriate for the State, as it has done in respect of foreign spending, to spend money on the country's greatest resource for the future, namely, its young people. Consequently, we respectfully call on the joint committee to advise the Minister to consider setting a target of 7%, and on each member to take this on board in respect of his or her own agenda.

Moving on to the second point, there has been a significant debate over the past 18 months or so in respect of funding for education. A number of initiatives have been taken to attempt to at least stop the cutbacks and we appreciate the steps that have been taken in this regard, particularly that of the Chairman. It is time to not alone stop but to begin to reverse the position. One aspect that has emerged that is noted by everyone in attendance today and which comes from all schools pertains to the difficulty in managing schools on foot of the vacuum that has been created in middle management. Our point is that there must be some alleviation of that situation. There are serious threats in this regard and management bodies have suggested the position will become extremely difficult in September. I refer to the flood of people out of the profession because of the incentive in respect of pensions for teachers and other public service workers to retire this year. This will create a further vacuum at the top level in schools that will be filled from the middle management level, which in turn will leave a vacuum in middle management that will render schools in operable.

Third, I refer to further and higher education places and in particular to post-leaving certificate places. We have argued in the past that it makes a great deal of economic sense to educate young people and in many cases, not so young people. The post-leaving certificate, PLC, colleges have the advantage of flexibility and adaptability to suit their needs. Our point is that strong economic arguments suggest that investment made in PLC places would be more than repaid by taking people off the dole queue, training them and giving them the necessary skills. The existing courses, which in the main extend for one or two years, are the type of courses that are needed for this economy. We respectfully suggest to members that short courses lasting a matter of weeks are not the type of courses that will be necessary for the future. This issue pertains to people who may not have much education or to those who have a great deal of education, albeit in an area the economy no longer needs and the building trade obviously comes to mind in this regard. Substantial reskilling will be necessary for such people, as will be substantial and significant qualifications. Our point is that the PLC colleges provide an excellent vehicle for providing such training.

At present, however, a cap has been artificially imposed whereby approximately 31,000 places in such courses have been allocated. The colleges are managing to take on greater numbers than that, but demand still exists. Research by the TUI indicates that there are approximately two applicants for each place. Moreover, those people who have not secured places are still waiting for them. This situation will only get worse as unemployment rises. It is important to do this now so that when the economy picks up — everyone hopes this will be sooner rather than later — people will have the skills the economy needs and will be able to fit in with the economy's future growth, rather than waiting until the economy picks up and then having a lag-time before the skills are provided. The requisite vehicles, namely, the PLC colleges, already are in place and we suggest that were the artificially-imposed cap to be lifted, it would allow many more young people to enter these colleges, which would be of overall benefit.

Chairman

Thank you. All members have received the report and as attendance is good today, I will try to keep contributions to two minutes, if possible, except for the two leading Opposition spokespersons, beginning with Deputy Brian Hayes.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I thank the Chairman and welcome the representatives of the Stand Up for Education campaign. Has the campaign a view on the recent decision taken by the teaching unions on non-co-operation with management in respect of the moratorium on middle management appointments? It is worrying that some of our schools could be closed down by next September if that policy of non-co-operation continues. In a context where the country is effectively broke, our banking system is broken and the financial situation is deteriorating by the month, do we not all share a responsibility to show some leadership and to do our best to work through these difficult circumstances? Does the campaign have an opinion on that issue as it affects students, parents and our entire school community? Has it considered the proposal I suggested earlier this week to introduce a minimum floor for appointments below which the school would not go? I accept that the retirement of five or six post holders would have a huge effect on a school but one of the solutions could be the introduction of a minimum floor for appointments and the Department could intervene if the number decreases below that.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

There is no floor at present. Some schools have lost as many as eight assistant principal posts and are completely unable to function. That will only get worse. The establishment of a floor is an interesting proposal. The Stand up for Education campaign is recommending the immediate alleviation of the situation, although this does not mean a total and absolute restoration. As one party to the campaign, the Teachers Union of Ireland takes our own view of the matter. Collectively, we are arguing that the situation needs alleviation and cannot be allowed to drift. If by creating a crisis the union causes the situation to be addressed, the schools and young people will only benefit.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is it not more difficult to resolve this as long as the policy of non-co-operation is maintained in the current climate?

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

I would disagree with the Deputy. He makes an interesting proposal which may well represent a step on the way to alleviating the problem, and I would be happy to discuss it. I am not in any sense ruling it out because it is a helpful and useful suggestion that deserves further exploration.

Chairman

Given the number of people who wish to contribute today, I wish to clarify for Deputy Brian Hayes that the constituent members of Stand Up for Education take various views on this issue. I do not propose to ask everybody to comment and it would be unfair to ask the TUI for its opinion without also asking, for example, parents' representatives. I ask members to focus their questions on Stand Up for Education because otherwise the meeting will degenerate into a divide and conquer debate.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I am putting the question to Stand Up for Education. If there are two different views I would be interested in hearing them.

Ms Jackie O’Callaghan

From the parents' perspective, the moratorium is affecting schools this year and I have no doubt it will continue to affect them in the future. The dispersal of extra work that comes as a result of somebody retiring or going on maternity leave is dependent on the goodwill of the staff of each individual school. We will consider the issue together.

Deputy Brian Hayes

In 2007, 150,000 people were unemployed in this country. In 2010, 430,000 people are unemployed. There were 30,000 post-leaving certificate places in 2007 and this year there are 38,000. The Government provided an additional 1,500 places and the colleges managed to provide the remaining 7,500 by shoving people into classrooms. The number of places has only increased by 8,000 over a three-year period even though unemployment has increased three fold. I strongly support what Stand Up for Education has said on this issue. PLC courses are relatively cheap and flexible and they make a huge difference in terms of progressing to courses in a institutes of technology and universities and providing a means of retraining people who are not in work. It is an indictment of entire system than a mere 8,000 additional places were created at a time when unemployment has tripled.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Following from Deputy Brian Hayes's second comment, with which I fully agree, and in light of the speculation in today's newspapers about Cabinet reshuffles, the history of education and Dr. Craig Barrett's suggestion that we need to move up the ladder of educational achievements in order to prepare ourselves for the reconstruction of our economy after the structural adjustments are made to our budget, can an argument be made for transferring the entire apparatus of FÁS and its budget to the Department of Education and Science? Many of the jobs which were historically done by AnCO and subsequently FÁS are no longer required or are in decline. Is it time to consider unifying the training budgets and the infrastructure of training centres? We will always require a core group of construction workers, who were historically trained by FÁS and the apprenticeship system, but do we need to rethink the entire system of education and training? The constraints on the Department in terms of the miserable increase the number of PLC places can be contrasted not only with the largesse that the board members of FÁS showed to themselves but also with that organisation's training budget. We have an opportunity to rethink that divide and end the nonsensical turf war that has raged for some time.

Ms Jackie O’Callaghan

As a parent, it would be ideal to subsume these functions into the Department but the system lacks joined up thinking between different bodies, such as the Department, FÁS and the Department of Finance.

There is no point in creating PLC places for the sake of it and only offering three-month courses. Students need fully functional 12-month to two-year courses that would give them not just a piece of paper at the end but also the skills they need to work in new areas. A short-term solution to a long-term problem is no good.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

It is fair to say that Stand Up for Education backs the document before us. Ms O'Callaghan has given her view and the TUI is on the record as having called for the establishment of a Department of education and training in order to remove the nonsensical and artificial divide between education and training. My union has previously submitted documents to a number of members of this committee on that issue and has called for the places that were made available earlier this year to be put into the education sector rather than FÁS. Anecdotally, FÁS claims to be able to deliver more courses without any additional resources but I understand they simply achieved this by turning year-long courses into three month courses. The agency can now offer three courses where previously it offered one, thereby increasing the number of courses by a factor of three. They have done absolutely nothing for additional training. There must be coherence in this. Other organisations are involved, for example, health boards are involved in training as is the Department of Social and Family Affairs. There must be an overarching consideration of education and training.

I heard the suggestion this morning that there might be a reorganisation of portfolios and this issue immediately sprung to mind. It was in the submission today as we recognised that this is the committee dealing with education. I absolutely support what Deputy Quinn has suggested.

Ms Annette Dolan

Joined-up thinking at Government level must be reflected on the ground. What is needed is a comprehensive national adult guidance service. There is adult guidance within FÁS and the VECs but only in respect of VTOS or a back-to-education student. In the context of the unemployment crisis we are now in, if a person has become unemployed from a traditional industry, has left school early and has very low literacy and numeracy skills, he or she would not know where to go.

In preparing to come before the committee I spoke to some mature students in colleges of further education doing post-leaving certificate courses. They said they had been in employment for a number of years and were wondering what to do as they did not know where to go. Depending on where a person goes, he or she would go down a certain avenue, so there should be a comprehensive adult guidance service within each area. This would be available regardless of whether a person was from Galway, Meath, Roscommon or Mayo as the people must know their choices within the area.

If a person became unemployed in Ballinasloe or Tuam, for example, that person would know of options in Galway community college and if the person does a post-leaving certificate course, it will lead to a course in GMIT. There should be choices in that local area. That joined-up thinking is not there but such a service could be put in place effectively and very quickly. If somebody is on social welfare or a lone parent's allowance, somebody should be there to give information on what can be done within the context of where that person is. That policy should be taken on board.

Mr. Frank McDaid

We already have the vehicle for delivering that as I am quite happy that our VECs could do it, even after they are rationalised. That process is now due and I hope the decision is taken quickly as it will allow VECs to know where they stand. We already have the structure in our VECs to deliver the suggestion made by Deputy Quinn. I recommend considering it seriously as the Government should do it.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

The name of the presentation is Stand Up for Education: A Smarter Future for All. I have only read the executive summary but I am somewhat surprised there is no mention of preschool. Perhaps it is not something which would be included in the executive summary but if the issue relates to a smarter future for all, we must take a 20-year view rather than the immediate view.

Being somewhat parochial, many counties and colleges have been listed in the debate but there is no sign of Donegal. Are we doing okay and are there sufficient post-leaving certificate courses for the 147,000 people we have? Are we somewhat ignored on the basis that we would go to the North anyway? Given that Letterkenny IT and other brilliant sources work for the delivery of post-leaving certificate education, I would not like to think it would be assumed that we have an alternative somewhere else and will disappear into the ether. Should we take on board the post-leaving certificate type of courses available in the North and which can be accessed by us in the Limavady Institute or the technology courses in Derry and Coleraine?

Research states there are two people for every place on the post-leaving certificate courses. Some of the newspapers ran a big story recently indicating that for every college place next September or October, two people would be fighting for it. On further analysis the ratio was 1.6:1, and taking out the number of people applying to more than one college course, the ratio was little different from last year with a 6% increase. Are two people really fighting for each place?

Has research been done on what people are looking to go into and what the economy needs? Ms Dolan spoke about adult guidance and how somebody who is unemployed should be guided to the best options for getting back to work. I agree with this but there is also an element of people running at the same hole in the hedge and when they emerge, there may not be a job in that sector anyway. Are we doing enough beyond guidance to finding the talents of individuals? There is a difficulty in trying to guide people to where we see potential opportunities for job creation in future. Is there enough training and linkage to Forfás and other bodies researching the skill needs into the future? Is that being linked to the educational opportunities available and what the unemployment agencies are trying to do? I have asked this question in another forum and I am not convinced we have tied all those issues together.

My last point comes back to the idea of a smarter future for all. Are we making fundamental teaching errors; for example, are we teaching in a way that leaves only facts being regurgitated? Have we opened up the process across primary and secondary level in particular? In primary school, there are examples of critical thinking and multiple perspectives but are we doing enough in the second level to keeping that critical thinking open that will lead to people entering the economy as late teenagers as better employers and employees?

My background is in music. We always talk about the problems we have with maths and science and how people are not able to use such skills. International experience shows that music, maths and science are linked. We throw away the music first when we should focus on it. Perhaps we would not have the problems with maths and science if we did. The delegation is standing up for education but it might think about standing up for some of these creative arts that would keep critical thinking and creativity in our children in order for them to become better employees and employers.

Mr. Frank McDaid

Senator Keaveney makes a very good point. I have spoken on related issues and Ms Dolan will also contribute. I spoke with the Senator recently and she knows that Donegal VEC has certainly delivered well on the music side and it is not unique.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

It was helped by a report I did on music and education in this committee a few years ago.

Mr. Frank McDaid

The Senator told me that. Ms Dolan will update the committee on the research done on post-leaving certificate courses.

Ms Annette Dolan

The Department of Education and Science sends out approval procedures to all the VECs with regard to getting approval for post-leaving certificate course places. These procedures have tightened year on year. If one considers the procedures that went out last year and the application this year, one can see permission will not be given to run a course unless it is linked to labour market demands. Courses are not run for the sake of it and the process is very much linked to labour market demands and where jobs will be in the future.

That is one of the positives of the post-leaving certificate courses. They are linked to potential demands in various industries. The courses are designed to meet those local needs, and can be turned around very quickly. They give people the core skills — the key literacy, numeracy and ICT skills — which are linked to specialist areas.

To return to what Senator Keaveney said, I was talking last night to the principal of one of the larger PLC colleges, which offers second-year courses to assist students in developing skills. He was talking about courses in arts and music, including art and design, computer assisted design, professional cookery, jewellery making, painting and furniture restoration. He said that for every one of those courses, those taking the course were innovators because at the end of the course they would go out and create employment for themselves. More of this needs to be nurtured. That is what is behind the success of PLCs. Not only are they helping students develop their skills to contribute to the economy, but the students themselves are creating employment.

Deputy Brian Hayes

There is also the animation course in Ballyfermot.

Ms Annette Dolan

On the "Nine O'Clock News" last night, the students of Ballyfermot came back to the college. They are a major success story. Not only did they develop the skills, but they were nominated for an Oscar. They are not the only ones; other students have received awards in the past, with similar stories. Again, those colleges are suffering due to the moratorium on recruitment. Every student in a PLC college is an exam student, which puts far more pressure on those colleges. Last year seven teachers retired from Galway Community College in Moneenageisha. The community college encompasses not only a large PLC college but also a second level school, with around 1,000 students between PLC and second level. It managed to replace one assistant principal just before the moratorium came in, but there are six assistant principal posts left vacant. That story is replicated around the country.

To give an example of a smaller college, Davitt College in Castlebar had six assistant principal posts but is now down to four, and it has lost four special duties posts, which makes things very difficult. The same is true around the country; I could give examples of schools in all of the members' constituencies.

Mr. Don Ryan

Senator Keaveney made a number of comments. Clearly there is a certain level of parochialism with regard to why further education has not developed in Donegal. A number of years ago we made a similar presentation in front of the Chairman's predecessor, Deputy Killeen. He wondered at the time why further education had not developed in County Clare, and the response he was given was that unless the cap was lifted, it would not develop in County Clare. That has been very much the case.

The larger centres had taken the initiative of PLC further education long before issues of size and development became important. As soon as other counties and VECs were beginning to develop further education, the cap was applied, so they never had an opportunity to mature and develop. That is clearly the answer, although there may be other reasons. Sligo is seen as the gateway to the north west, but further education there has developed within extreme constraints because of the shortage of resources and staff due to the cap, although this was somewhat alleviated by the additional numbers it was given last Easter.

Senator Keaveney made another comment that implied that the programmes in further education were weighed down with theory. Perhaps in contrast with FÁS programmes, these courses have vocational, educational, general studies and communications elements. They have compulsory units and work experience, and they are constantly being developed and changed to suit local needs. I dispute that they are theory-based programmes; clearly, they are not. The courses in Ballyfermot that were mentioned by Deputy Hayes were not theory-based; otherwise, those people would not have had the level of success they have had.

Another important observation is that the programmes offered in further education are matched to the various levels of the national qualifications framework. People can be identified as having achieved a level 4 or level 5 qualification, and we can monitor people's progress to determine whether they make use of progression routes to higher levels. That is not possible when one is doing short-term programmes with one module, because this level of management and transparency is not possible. The fact that we have a transparent and streamlined national framework assists in the evaluation of learners' achievements and progress. That is a benefit not only of the framework but also of the way in which further education colleges have adopted and become part of that framework.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

Senator Keaveney's first question was about preschool education. In the executive summary there are three important words related to education spending — namely, "across all sectors". That means preschool, primary, post-primary, third level and fourth level education. Spending in education is a question of what is important. We are here representing a second and third level union and a post-primary parents' group, so those are our main focus, but what we stand for is spending across the board.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

My point was that preschool education is often not even mentioned, so the assumption is that people are talking about later stages of education.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

I accept that, and I am glad the Senator clarified it.

Chairman

Just to clarify matters, preschool education is not fully within the Department's remit. There is a Minister of State in the Department who deals with this area but our committee does not deal with that sector.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

It is important in terms of joined-up thinking.

Chairman

Absolutely.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

If we ignore it and do not mention it, it becomes somebody else's responsibility, and that is the root of many of our problems.

Chairman

The Senator's point is well made. All three parties have now made decent contributions and given individual responses. We will now move on and take a group of questions together.

Deputy Ulick Burke

I welcome the representatives of Stand Up for Education to the committee.

Probably one of the most serious difficulties with the moratorium on middle management posts in education is that the year head structure has been dismantled. Most schools have a structure whereby a teacher remains with a particular group throughout a cycle, and he or she knows the students in the group right up to the end. There will be a major deficit in terms of the work associated with students' progress and also the social element, which is important in terms of keeping students in school. It is a retrograde step on the part of the Department to have suppressed the filling of those posts. If there must be a redistribution of functions within this area, it will be difficult to fill the void that has been created in many schools by the retirement of many teachers. These areas are crucial for the functioning of the school and, particularly, the welfare of the students, which is of paramount importance. I hope the representatives can assist the Department in finding a resolution. I suggested to the Department that this be done.

Regarding PLCs, I have seen their benefit in my own family. People who enter third level education and find themselves in the wrong area can come back to a college that provides PLC courses and be taken through these in a way they never have been, even though they may have received guidance at second level. Getting the leaving certificate is one thing but I have found that people who get certification through the PLC find a sense of achievement. This is very difficult to assess other than in their success in life subsequently.

Mr. McMenamin spoke about the situation in the past relative to the construction industry. That has changed so much. It is a breath of fresh air now. There has been a response in the colleges which provide PLC courses. They take people down avenues for which they have great potential. In the west the craft industry has flourished in very many ways. People have become entrepreneurs in their own right at a very early age. If the Department is serious about this move in the current climate, it is important it provides additional places and resources to expand in this area. I very much welcome what Deputy Quinn said in this regard. In the past there used to be cases where FÁS literally fought for resources at the expense of colleges which provided PLCs and training courses that were ideally suited for students. There must be a re-think in the entire area. I support Deputy Quinn's suggestions.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I welcome the representatives of Stand Up for Education. I note they do not include members of the INTO or the ASTI. I am curious about the reason. I am sure an invitation was extended to them.

I have three questions. First, with regard to the proposed 7% spend of GDP on education, I agree that our spend has decreased. In the mid-1990s we had a spend of 5.5% of GDP which is now down to 4.6% and things are extremely tight. However, rather than beginning with the spend, do the delegates not agree we should start by considering the education outcomes we want to achieve, work backwards from that point and cost it? If we start with the money figure only, we are in danger of shooting at it and not necessarily doing the right things for education. I am curious to hear the comments of the delegation.

Second, regarding the point made about the vacuum that has occurred at middle management level, this is an extremely serious situation. Ms Dolan made an excellent point about Moneenageisha college, for example, which is losing six assistant principal posts. Such action can render schools inoperable or even close them. It may cause chaos in schools. That school works in a very challenging environment, taking in many children from socially deprived backgrounds and offering them an enormous range of courses. There are discipline and timetabling challenges. Other than offering an ultimatum, what efforts have the delegates made to reach arrangements with the Minister for Education and Science regarding safeguarding the quality of education for our pupils? Let us be honest. An ultimatum is a high wire strategy and, essentially, is a threat. I completely accept that the delegation supports the good of education but I believe the strategy is wrong. I want to hear about other efforts.

Third, I refer to PLC places. As Deputies Quinn and Burke noted, PLCs are wonderful. They offer a flexibility and accessibility that are not necessarily present in other courses. The Minister spoke in the Seanad recently on the issue of CAO places. Senator Keaveney also heard this point. What is the delegation's opinion on why the Minister is placing a cap on PLC places when he is not doing the same at higher education level? He confirmed to me in the Seanad that he was not placing a cap on the latter. When I put a question to him about funding he said he expected the colleges to be creative with their financing but that there would be no cap at university or third level. However, there is a cap at PLC level and this is outrageous. For example, Galway technical college has refused 2,550 applicants at a time when we never needed places more. My constituency office is full of students who come to me asking how they can get a place or how they can get funding to go back to college. The greatest demand in my office concerns grants and college places, especially PLC places. As Ms Dolan said, rightly, the PLC is linked to the jobs and labour market and to actual needs as well as offering courses in areas students want. Do the delegates believe the Minister has another agenda? Has he an agenda against this type of further education in that he favours higher education and FÁS? Ms O'Callaghan mentioned the need for an overarching joined-up service. I could not agree more but where should it start? Who should offer it?

Deputy Mary Wallace

I refer to the value of PLC programmes and the point made by the president of the TUI, Mr. Don Ryan. I am concerned about the cap. Mr. Ryan spoke about areas that never developed versus those that did and about geographic inconsistencies throughout the country.

Might we agree that arising from today's meeting the clerk should communicate with the relevant people in the Department of Education and Science regarding our concerns? I shall list a number of these. In addition, might we invite the departmental officials who deal with this issue to speak to the committee? As members have outlined, there are a number of concerns, starting with the value of the programmes. I tabled a parliamentary question recently about PLCs. In the reply the PLCs were described as "an integrated, general education, vocational training and work experience for young people". I do not see the programme as being so simple. I see it rather as speakers described it today. Deputy Burke's point about prevention measures was very important. He described how students can proceed to third level without making wrong decisions after their leaving certificate by going via the PLC course. They are much wiser in their choices at third level as a result, which is very important. In the present climate, what we might describe as the new unemployed or mature students are returning to the PLCs to redevelop skills. There is enormous value in those programmes. I would like the committee to question the Department of Education and Science on that value. That only 64% of students complete first year exams in third level colleges is something we should all be concerned about. Those who go through PLC courses do not have that experience. I would like to discuss that meaning of the word "value" with the Department because it is very significant.

The president of the TUI made points about the cap and areas that never developed. In particular, he mentioned Sligo. The college in Sligo has 600 PLC places for a population of 60,000. I represent a county with a population of 160,000, some 100,000 more than Sligo, and yet it can offer only 250 PLC places because of the cap. One would have to ask what is the story. Senator Keaveney has left now but I also looked at the figures for County Donegal. The cap in that county is for 200 PLC places. Therefore, there is not only an issue with the cap nationally but also in different counties in regard to population needs. County Donegal has a population of 147,000 and has 200 PLC places. My county has a population of 160,000 with 250 places allocated but let us compare my county to Cavan which has a population of 64,000 but which was allocated 1,300 places. Cavan is a neighbouring county with more than twice the number of places allocated to Meath but with a population of 100,000 fewer people. The committee should query this because there has been a historical build-up and the point was made by the delegation that certain areas were unable to develop beforehand and then a cap was applied. There is a national cap and a geographical cap.

I refer to the parliamentary questions I tabled to the Department of Education and Science. They describe how these caps are assigned and the nature of annual applications. This has been discussed, but the questions point out the necessity of ensuring appropriate provision on a geographic basis. I do not believe appropriate provision is applied on a geographic basis based on the figures I received from the Department.

I refer to the figures for the Dublin area. Upon a first glance they do not appear so bad; some 10,000 places are allocated in the Dublin area. However, 1 million people live in Dublin. In addition, there is no PLC, post leaving certificate, college in west Dublin, which has been subject to a great development of the population. This pattern is apparent in other areas of education as well, including the demand for places in primary and post-primary levels. The same factors apply in the PLC sector. Where are the people from west Dublin going to avail of PLC course places? I am familiar with the Blanchardstown and Mulhuddart areas because they are areas next to my county boundary. People are coming from these areas into Meath, which only has 250 places. We are catering for a substantial number of people from the Dublin area but this is not recognised because the cap is a Meath VEC cap. The Department of Education and Science is applying Meath VEC limits but there is no specification that an applicant's address must be in County Meath. This is an area we should query with the Department of Education and Science and it should be reviewed in terms of the national cap and on a county-by-county basis.

Ms Dolan made a very important point with regard to the need for the courses to be linked to labour market demand. This is critical in the current climate. Some people find they are unemployed but wish to return and take up a PLC course. They may wish to return to a different area of employment. There are two key groups of people in the VEC colleges, those who are targeting a change in career and who wish to be up-skilled in a particular area and those to whom Deputy Burke referred to, in particular, people on route to college who have recently completed the leaving certificate and for whom a PLC college is a wonderful place to spend 12 months. Such a choice may be to attain the number of points the student needs or to be sure it is a business course or degree or whatever that he or she wishes to pursue. However, such a PLC student entering third level is not likely to drop out before the first year exam and the statistics exist to support this. The value of these programmes is very significant.

One point discussed earlier related to the work of the committee and that when we hear excellent presentations, such as those we heard today, we should do something significant about it. We must raise these matters of concern with the Department of Education and Science. As in the matter of the schools building programmes, we should invite officials dealing with this matter in the Department of Education and Science to appear before the committee to tease out the historical aspects, to determine from where we have come to reach this point, to where must go and the overall importance of this matter in the current climate.

Chairman

Normally we put such proposals at the end of a meeting but given that the Deputy has raised the issue now and it is fresh in my mind, we will tackle the first issue. Is it agreed that the committee invite officials to appear before it to discuss the issue of PLC courses and further education in respect of value for money and the geographical spread of course availability? Agreed. Is it agreed that the preceding and following discussion and all responses by contributors in this meeting be circulated to the Department of Education and Science and the Minister, and that we seek a response from the Minister pending further questions when he appears before the committee shortly? Agreed. Is it agreed that given the calls for joined-up thinking on an interdepartmental basis and in the context of any forthcoming reshuffle or change in Departments that the Taoiseach should be contacted about the relevant parts of this meeting and called upon to consider the issues in the context of any departmental change, that any relevant material be carbon copied, for reasons of joined-up thinking, to the Minister for Health and Children, the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the Minister for Social and Family Affairs and the Minister for Finance?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I would add to the list the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform because of its responsibility for preschooling.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It has responsibilities in the area of disadvantage as well.

Deputy Mary Wallace

The Chairman did not mention the Minister for Education and Science.

Chairman

We have already agreed to contact the Minister. He will be contacted in the grand context anyway. Is it agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

I welcome the delegation. Given that we intend to write to the various Departments, I seek a reference to the employment activation fund, that is, the additional €20 million announced in the budget. A very good case has been made for additional PLC places and how cost effective they are. The delegation stated it was relatively easy to put in place such places because it would not cost a great deal money. In respect of this €20 million the delegation should put together an argument outlining how much of that it would need to generate additional PLC places. This matter will be considered by the Department of Education and Science and it will be a matter of interest from other competing interests who are trying to access some of the money. It is important that the delegation puts together its case on the issue.

Deputy Wallace highlighted several PLC course cases and how they have arisen in various counties. Do they bear any resemblance to the number of unemployed? This has not featured as a consideration in any decision. I am very interested in Ms Dolan's position in respect of the adult guidance service. My office in Castlebar is located next door to the VEC, where PLC courses are held, and above the office of the adult education officer for the VEC, the post on which there is an embargo at present. A large number of the people attending the PLC courses visit my office. The VEC believes it provides joined-up thinking in respect of adult guidance. Is this the understanding of the delegation as well? Does the delegation believe the VEC is providing the guidance service to which the delegation has adverted? It is probable FÁS believes it provides an element of such a service. If the VEC is not doing so, how does the delegation consider joined-up adult guidance services should be provided on a county by county basis? This is a very important point. My office has received many queries and many people come to us seeking such advice. It would be very important to attain an understanding of the delegation's thinking on the matter.

I refer to the moratorium on staff. It is a very blunt instrument and when it is introduced initially, it serves its purpose immediately but when it operates for any length of time not only in education, but in health, it is clear how it can have catastrophic effects. The delegation referred to Davitt College which is a school in my own town with which I am very familiar and where posts that have not been filled to date. I agree with the delegation on this point and in the long term this is not a solution. Something must be done and key posts must be filled, even if it must be done within the existing complement. This is a very difficult area because often people are employed on the front line and one must cut back on other employees elsewhere, which can be a difficult measure. We have seen this in the areas of health and education. I am keen to hear the comments of the delegation on this matter.

I refer to the amount of funding for education generally. Our funding is 4.6% of GDP. I take the point made by Senator Healy Eames that one cannot simply consider the level of funding as a statistic. It is interesting to note how out of sync we are with other European countries. Are we completely off the radar? Can the delegation provide some figures?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The European average is 5%.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

We are at 4.6%. Are there many lower than us and where do we fit in the scale?

Chairman

I refer to the message that should go to the Minister for Education and Science. It is a matter for the clerk's attention that the recommendations in the presentation represent a good synopsis in terms of what Stand Up for Education seeks and it should be put at the top of the correspondence. Any correspondence should include a record of the debate that has taken place because the synopsis is well put in the presentation. It is in the actual summary as opposed to the executive summary.

I have no wish to get into matters of intrigue or the politics of anything; there is already enough intrigue in this place. I am curious whether any explanations were offered by the INTO and the ASTI, given their aspirations for increased investment in education. Why were they unwilling to become part of the Stand Up for Education group?

The constituent members are very worthy and have enough clout in their own right, which is reflected in their appearance before the committee today. If the other teaching unions were involved it would help the cause. I am curious as to why that has not happened. I note the TUI has a particular interest in PLCs and further education because they are within its remit. The parents' representatives, for example, would cover the whole spectrum. Why are some of the teachers' representatives not on that spectrum? I am not trying to ask a loaded question. Was any reason given in the responses received by the delegation?

On a note of caution, I agree with the comments of Deputy Hayes on any activity of an industrial relations nature which might upset the aspirations of the delegation. Parents and teaching unions are currently united, but should any action of an express nature be taken which will affect the education of our children, irrespective of the rights of the points being made by teaching unions, the support of parents will dwindle very quickly and the situation will turn into an unholy mess. I welcome the fact that Stand Up for Education, as an entity, is steering clear of the individual concerns of each group and putting forward a strong case for investment in education, something which I support, up to the 7% mark. The anniversary of the Proclamation, which aspired to cherish everyone equally, is a very good target and I hope the Minister, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance will take it on board.

On legacy issues, when previous delegations have come before this committee, at one stage there were many calls for the implementation of the McIvor report. The cost at the time was approximately €56 million, which is not a significant sum even at a time of fiscal downturn. Has the aspiration to implement the McIvor report disappeared? Is it a case of people trying to hold on to what they have? I thank the delegation for its welcome of some of the reverses of the cuts made in the budget. I wish it could have been more, but it did reasonably well.

For the benefit of Senator Healy Eames, there is a vote in the Seanad. Where stand the recommendations of the McIvor report?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I will have to leave, but I want to hear the answers to my questions. Is there any chance of that?

Chairman

Yes, I will finish.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I apologise.

Chairman

I will be more brief than the other contributors. The other issue concerns second level funding. It is the channel through which the PLCs are currently funded. There has been a long-standing call to separate them; I presume the delegation is still calling for that. Only if one has a separate, clear channel can one progress. Has the delegation had any response from the Department in recent times about that? The delegation can answer Senator Healy Eames's questions first because there is a vote in the Seanad.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

The first question concerned education outcomes. Nobody suggests that we throw a large amount of money in immediately without any thought. Money, on its own, will not solve anything. On the other hand, if money is not available nothing will happen. I agree with the Senator. The commitment to spending underlies any of the proposals which will have to be made. A reasonably good job is currently being done with what is available. However, much more can be done. It is resource demanding.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

We would like to see the delegation develop a costed proposal out of funded costings. It would be a great exercise.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

Absolutely. In respect of the second question on what we have done to address the issue, we made representations to the Minister on a number of occasions.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Has the delegation spoken to the Minister?

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

Yes. Within a short time of the introduction of this measure we had a face-to-face meeting with the Minister and the Secretary General. We have had representations since them.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is the delegation getting anywhere with him?

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

Absolutely not. The finger is pointed in the direction of Merrion Street, where people say there is nothing they can do about it. The view which is taken, which I said on air recently, is not education-driven, rather, it is finance-driven. To address Deputy Flynn's point, what we are discussing involves no more people. It requires a relatively small amount of money. It is simply cost saving. The belief in the Department of Finance is that real jobs are not involved. They are; schools do not work without them.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I asked a question regarding PLCs and if there was another agenda.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

On the question of PLCs, I do not know. I am happy the committee has decided to speak to representatives of the Department of Education and Science. That is where that question goes. I will not speculate. It is a question which needs to be asked.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Mr. MacMenamin does not have the answer.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

Absolutely not.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

In the context of the need it is curious.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

I totally agree with the Senator and everything Deputy Burke said in respect of a range of issues, including the moratorium in the PLCs. I agree we need to see if there is a possible way of alleviating the situation. A number of suggestions were made here today which are welcome.

Ms Annette Dolan

I will answer some of Deputy Wallace's questions because I know the geography of the area to which she referred. We believe the cap should be lifted so that courses can develop organically in areas based on need, because they will not develop if there is no demand. Our research shows, on a very conservative level, that there were two applicants for every one place. All the principals I spoke to throughout the country said never before have they had such an avalanche of parents and public representatives coming to them and asking why their son or constituent did not get a place. They feel under pressure to be completely open and transparent regarding their admissions policies. For example, Cavan VEC had 3,500 applications which generates a large workload, but people are still asking why they were refused a place. The same situation pertains everywhere else.

In Meath the students are going to Cavan, Drogheda or Dundalk. The reason it has not developed in Meath is because of the cap. In Drogheda and Dundalk there were larger second level schools which, in effect, changed from being second level post primary schools into further education colleges. The same happened in Cavan. In Meath, because of the population shift from Dublin city towards Meath, the existing schools were not diminishing in terms of second level provision. The demand is still in Meath because over the past ten years the area has grown exponentially, in terms of housing. The same issue did not develop organically, in terms of second level schools dwindling because of a reduction in population, as happened in Cavan, Drogheda and Dundalk. It still does not account for the fact that the cap should be lifted and colleges allowed to develop organically in a particular area.

Deputy Mary Wallace

I do not wish to interrupt, but I wish to clarify one point. I did not want to be too parochial but the Dunboyne Institute of Further Education was established in recent years and is located in Dunboyne Business Park. The college exists and is bursting at the seams with applications. Students are not going to other counties; they are there and the demand is there. However, as Ms Dolan said, the cap is preventing progress.

Ms Annette Dolan

Beaufort and Oldcastle have PLC provision. The difficulty is the cap. On the moratorium, not alone is it having a major impact on second level schools and PLCs colleges, it is also having a major impact on adult education in all of the VECs. There are eight adult education organisers, who are the key personnel in terms of the organisation of adult education in each of the VECs, and eight of those positions are vacant. This number is made up of two in County Mayo, which now has no adult education officer because of the moratorium, one each in Wexford, Leitrim, Kerry and Galway county, one retirement in County Dublin and one person is on leave and has not been replaced. This amounts to eight key personnel in adult education who have not been replaced because of the moratorium at a time of high unemployment and when adults are returning to education. A key aspect of my discussions with principals throughout the country relates to the increase in the number of men enrolled in PLC courses and the increase in the number of mature students, including men.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

What are the cost implications if one were to remove the cap on PLC places?

Ms Annette Dolan

We do not believe it is a cost because there is a cost to pay a person on the dole anyway. The leader of the Deputy's party has stated there is a cost of €20,000——

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

That is assuming one can veer money from one Department to another. Does the delegation know off-hand the cost of removing the cap?

Ms Annette Dolan

It depends on the number of places one intends to create. Ultimately, it is linked to the number of places in terms of funding costs.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

There would be additional staffing costs. One knows roughly what a teacher costs. As the Chairman remarked, these colleges are recognised as second level schools and treated as such in terms of staffing ratios. We have put it to the Minister that this is entirely inappropriate, that these are not second level schools and that they should be treated quite differently.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

What about the ratio issue?

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

The argument changes as soon as the ratio issue arises. The issue of why this continues to be the case should be put to representatives when they appear before the committee. On occasion, the Minister blames us for second level thinking in PLC colleges but the Department categorises them as such, despite the fact that we have asked it to change that categorisation. I was pleased the Deputy raised the McIvor report and we aspire to its recommendations. There has been a variance in the past 18 months or so and there have been moves in the direction of the implementation of it. These moves were agreed with us and then withdrawn because the funding was suddenly gone.

One key point is the recognition that the further education sector is different from second level schools. That is also one of the key points in the McIvor report. There are many other recommendations but one key point is that it is a separate sector which does a different job and one cannot administer it as though it caters for 12 to 18 year olds.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

What would be the appropriate ratio for further education?

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

I do not know. It is necessary to consider the staffing schedules in the institutes of technology and determine how they are organised. There are teachers and non-teachers involved. There would be an implication in terms of technical support, which is necessary as well, and that skews the ratio immediately. If one only considered teachers then there would have to be a relatively high number of teachers. However, if one included technical support as well, the answer is different. There should be technical support in schools as well but there is no such support. It is essential and this was one of the recommendations of the McIvor report. The report recommended a degree of back-up support and the need for non-teaching support. This would not increase the cost, it amounts to spreading the cost and this is a key point to which I wish to return. The McIvor report remains the aspiration and we seek the implementation of the report recommendations as soon as possible. At the moment we are simply saying that if it was recognised at second level and the resources committed 18 months ago were delivered, that would represent a significant step in the right direction and we could continue to move in the right direction.

Chairman

Mr. MacMenamin indicated he wished to speak again, which is the reason I called him. Mr. Ryan was probably not aware that Mr. MacMenamin had indicated prior to this. He has been waiting for some time.

Mr. Don Ryan

I acknowledge and recognise the knowledge and awareness of the further education sector expressed by Deputies and Senators. This was not always the case and it is gratifying to realise the interest and awareness that exists.

I refer to the McIvor report. Ms Dolan and I were on the relevant working body some ten years ago. The report was issued seven years ago and it has been effectively collecting dust since then. I understand €50 million was mentioned but the watered down version of the report envisaged spending amounting to only approximately 20% of that figure. That would be very much welcomed for a start. We wish to have a recognised further education sector and I do not understand why there is such a reluctance. Developed countries in Europe and Britain have further education sectors. They formed a part of the study which led to the McIvor report.

A member asked a question about the €20 million for the activation fund and how much of that we could spend. We could spend all of it quite easily.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

How did I know that was coming?

Mr. Don Ryan

The fund has upskilling and reskilling dimensions and it extends right across the framework from level one to level eight, the levels to which I referred earlier. The fund refers to upskilling to level eight, which is an honours qualification. There is provision within our sector, including the VEC colleges and the institutes of technology, to provide that. I did not intend to give a glib answer to the question, but €20 million in the current situation is still a good deal of money if used properly.

As the documentation clearly indicates, we deal with programmes. It is not simply a matter of modules or short-term offers that FÁS might run, for example. That is not a criticism of FÁS; it serves a function. However, there should be a more extended programme to provide the various modules and aspects that give full certification at a particular level, whether level one or up to the honours qualification. To give a short answer to the question, we could spend all of it.

Ms Jackie O’Callaghan

I refer to Deputy Wallace's question in respect of the value for money of PLC courses. As a parent, the investment in education is incalculable and it should be made from the ground up or even from preschool, as Deputy Keaveney suggested. The upskilling of a person could potentially put him or her back and re-introduce him or her to the workforce. This in turn recirculates tax investment and tax to the Government, it puts people out to work and regenerates the economy. That whole aspect should be joined-up and it must come through joined-up thinking.

Deputy Mary Wallace

I was not questioning the value, I was simply——

Ms Jackie O’Callaghan

I agree with the Deputy absolutely.

Deputy Mary Wallace

I do not believe everyone realises there is a very significant value to it.

Ms Jackie O’Callaghan

There is a very significant value to it.

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

The Chairman and Senator Healy Eames raised a question about the presence of other organisations. Stand Up for Education is an organisation made up of the Teachers Union of Ireland and parents from the vocational sector. It is largely focused in the direction of vocational education. Its aims relate to spending throughout all sectors of education. Other groupings have a wider focus but we believed it was important to have a particular focus on this area. No one has refused to be involved. We have written to several people and there is a list of supporters at the end of our document.

Chairman

Were the INTO and the ASTI asked to support the campaign?

Mr. Peter MacMenamin

They were asked to support the campaign. As with several other bodies, we have not received a response from them as of yet. However, I would not read anything into that. There is no negative view and it is not as if people are saying they do not want us here. This has a particular focus in the direction of VEC colleges. It is somewhat like the PLC colleges in that the idea is to have a small, nimble organisation that can focus and adapt to changing needs rather than operate as five or six organisations, which is like trying to steer an oil tanker. It is nothing more than that.

Chairman

We have had a very thorough debate.

Ms Annette Dolan

I wish to add one final point. Last night, I spoke to a 38 year old lone parent in Inchicore College of Further Education. She informed me she was on social welfare, in a poverty trap and that she wishes to get out of the poverty trap. She maintained the only way she can do so is by upskilling and that was the reason she was attending Inchicore College of Further Education. This is a person who has gone back into education to reskill and retrain and that is one way this country can get back on its feet. We will not change anything if we remain static. All international studies show that the higher one's level of education and the more one upskills, the greater opportunity one has to earn a higher salary and generate employment. There is an onus on us to invest in education and upskilling. However, we should not invest in short courses which do not give people the necessary skills. Courses need to be for at least one year to give students the skills to enable them to contribute to the economy.

Chairman

The last thing we need at the moment is yellow pack courses.

Ms Annette Dolan

Courses have to be properly funded, with properly trained teachers under reasonable conditions of service.

Chairman

We need a little competition to raise standards but there also needs to be a good road map and a year-long course is ideal for that purpose. One-year courses are part of the skills qualification programme.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. There are diverse views among members but, as a united front, the witnesses have pushed forward the cause of investment in education. I hope the Minister for Education and Science, the Minister for Finance, the Taoiseach and other Ministers take that on board.

The joint committee adjourned at noon until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 11 March 2010.