JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Apr 2010

Supports for Children in a Multi-ethnic Society: Discussion with Department of Education and Science

Chairman

I welcome the officials from the Department of Education and Science: Mr. Jim Mulkerrins, principal officer, social inclusion unit; Mr. Hubert Loftus, principal officer, schools division; Ms Breda Loftus, principal officer, integration unit; Mr. Gary O'Donnchadha, assistant chief inspector; and Ms Anne O'Mahony, assistant principal officer, integration unit. The representatives will brief the committee on proposals to improve the provision of supports for children from multi-ethnic, multicultural societies, with particular regard to children whose first language is other than English. This follows on from a presentation given by a number of schools with a large number of students for whom English is not their first language. They spoke eloquently of the need for additional supports and to leverage the expertise they have built up over time. They could be used as role models as the number of these types of schools increases in the future owing to changing demographics.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but witnesses before the committee do not have the same privilege. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Ms Naughton to begin the briefing on the proposals.

Ms Breda Naughton

We welcome the opportunity to address the committee this morning and outline what we are providing to schools from the perspective of the Department of Education and Science.

One of the high level goals of the Department is to improve the quality, relevance and inclusiveness of education for every learner in our schools. To deliver on that goal the Department recognises the needs of students for whom English is not their first language. That is done primarily through the allocation of additional teaching resources. We emphasise that there are a small number of schools which have allocations of up to five or six extra teachers. The funding this year is almost €100 million and it is spent in providing schools with slightly more than 1,500 English language teachers. The level of extra language teaching support to schools is determined by the number of eligible students enrolled and the assessed level of the student's language proficiency. In fact, the annual application process for the coming school year has already begun.

We acknowledge that not one size fits all and to that end we provide additional supports for those schools at primary level with 25% of students enrolled who do not have English as a first language. This year, 73 additional language support posts were provided to 64 primary schools and some of those schools would have five or six additional teachers. At post-primary level appeals are allowed where a significant number of the total enrolment is made up of EAL students who need support. We specify that if these children are in the junior certificate class year or in senior cycle the schools can appeal the allocation they were given and in this academic year no application was received from any post-primary school.

To ensure we follow the most appropriate path to cater for the needs of our migrant students we have been carrying out significant research, particularly the report by the OECD. It was interesting to read the Official Report of the committee's meeting in February when it discussed the position in Denmark and the Netherlands in particular. The OECD report involved six countries. These included the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Austria. With them we have been examining they way those countries work with migrant students.

We also had a large-scale ESRI report that was both qualitative and quantitative and sought responses from 1,200 primary and post-primary schools. We have both of those reports and both of them are available on the websites of the Department of Education and Science and the Minister for integration. In fact, we have a portal on both websites which provides access to resource materials available on intercultural topics.

We also carried out a value for money review on the expenditure on EAL in our primary and post-primary schools. Also, the inspectorate has carried out an evaluation of the quality of teaching and learning. With the value for money review and the inspectorate's evaluation we work together to provide the recommendations for that and both reviews are being finalised currently. All of that work inputs into our intercultural education strategy along with consultations with the key stakeholders.

We emphasise, and I believe it was emphasised at the February meeting, the importance of not only looking after the EAL provision but also the inclusion, integration and intercultural perspectives in terms of the way we do this two-way process of integration.

We have provided continuing professional development, particularly for the EAL teachers and school leaders, and are taking a whole team approach.

In terms of DEIS, an extensive identification process was carried out in 2005 to support schools through the current DEIS programme but that is being reviewed and the next identification process for DEIS is taking place.

A departmental steering committee has been established which includes the Education Research Centre, the inspectorate and also the integration unit. The group will examine potential new variables in data sources. That process is happening.

We stress that migrant students are not automatically equated with being disadvantaged. The results of the last census show that migrant parents have an education level equivalent to that of their native peers.

Research, and in particular the ESRI research, shows that migrant students are a huge addition to the school because they raise the motivation of others and also the standards.

From last September the remit of the National Educational Welfare Board was extended to include the home-school-community liaison scheme, the school completion programme and the visiting teacher service for Travellers in addition to its original educational welfare service. The board is charged with developing a single, strategic approach reflecting equally the nature and strengths of each of the services. We will provide a new integrated service to children, families and schools. It is aimed at eliminating poor attendance and early school leaving and maximising school participation.

It is important also to emphasise that we now have the free preschool year, which is available for children from the age of three years and three months up to four years and six months. That happened this January.

Another aspect we want to acknowledge is that 20% of our schools are providing English language classes in the schools themselves. That is additional to the language classes provided by the vocational education committees.

The Department recognises that there are language and integration challenges for schools. We are taking a dual approach for schools with significant numbers of students for whom English is not their first language. The current pressures on the public finances mean it is not possible to provide additional resources to schools over and above what has been agreed by the Government as necessary to cater for demographics and to deliver on the commitments in the renewed programme for Government. Significant resources are already given to these schools and the challenge is to ensure they are used to maximum effect. The research projects, particularly the inspectorate's evaluation being carried out, will continue to help guide and develop Department policy into the future.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I thank Ms Naughton and the team from the Department in its various guises. It is good to see Mr. Mulkerrins, who came from this place, back with us again.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Brian Hayes

That is the end of his career now. I want to be clear on one aspect. What is the number of English language teachers now compared with 2008?

Ms Breda Naughton

It was 2,100 and it is now more than 1,500.

Deputy Brian Hayes

We have lost more than 600 teachers in the past two years.

Ms Breda Naughton

Yes.

Deputy Brian Hayes

On the question of the continuous professional development, my understanding is that the Department will reduce the number by 100 teachers, from 250 to 150, next year. Does that mean that in respect of the work Ms Naughton is doing in her area, we will lose people in that area?

Ms Breda Naughton

We would be looking at taking a different approach. We would be taking a multidisciplinary approach. There are experts on the new team that will have the EAL capabilities and skills to ensure that is part of the new team.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Ms Naughton is confident the Department can produce a better service with 100 fewer teachers.

Ms Breda Naughton

We will be examining other ways of providing professional development. That is under consideration in the value for money report.

Deputy Brian Hayes

If a student comes to this country at, say, 15 years of age and seeks refugee status, automatically they are under the protection of the Health Service Executive. The HSE, with the work of the Department, then finds a relevant post-primary school for that student at, say, 16 years of age. My understanding is that when that student reaches the age of 18 they are removed from the school in question and sent from Dublin to another part of the country, largely based on cost. That student, who may have been doing the junior certificate or the leaving certificate applied and may have been in that school for two years and built up a rapport with the EAL teachers and all the other teachers, is taken from that school and sent to another school. The difficulty that arises is that this student would find it impossible to find a place in a new school because he or she would be over the age of 18 years of age. Is Ms Naughton aware of this? Can she give the committee evidence as to the number of such cases? It has been brought to my attention that on six occasions 18 year olds have been taken out of a school in Dublin and sent down the country and have been unable to complete their studies and courses. Effectively, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has acted over the heads of the officials and over those of the schools in question, which has resulted in these 18 year olds, or to use Ms Naughton's phrase, these learners in our schools, having been sent to another part of the country. Is Ms Naughton aware of that practice and can she give the committee evidence on its scale? Has she had discussions with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform about this practice, which I understand has become a common occurrence in Dublin schools?

Ms Breda Naughton

I am aware of that practice because I worked in the Reception and Integration Agency, but I would like to correct the Deputy on one point. This happens in the case of unaccompanied minors rather than refugees while they are still in direct provision. The Reception and Integration Agency would be aware of this practice and I can get further details from that agency for the Deputy. I would not have exact details as to the whereabouts of everybody concerned.

Deputy Brian Hayes

What is the view of the Department of Education and Science on these young people being taken out of a school they have been attending, having obtained the support of that school in a multidisciplinary way? In fairness to the Department, it has provided an opportunity for those schools to provide a nurturing and loving environment for these children. I understand it is only in the past year or so that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has demanded that these 18 year olds be taken out of the post primary schools they are attending and be sent to another part of the country.

Ms Breda Naughton

In this respect, we are talking about the remit of a few Departments and responsibility for unaccompanied minors who do not have status, as such, would lie with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Therefore, education is not a factor in terms of enabling those minors to stay in Dublin. If that Department decides that they must live in direct provision down the country, that is its decision.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is the Department of Education and Science complicit in this by accepting that?

Ms Breda Naughton

That is what the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform does and that is its remit.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I have one or two questions on the matter Deputy Hayes raised. I have had dealings with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the past and I believe that if I were to apply for citizenship, my application would be probably declined. Those in the Department are not the easiest people with whom to deal. I am not saying the Department of Education and Science should be involved in the decisions of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Is there a formal top-level system of negotiation in this respect? We are talking about a very small number of cases. By virtue of the fact that such a person's life has been disrupted, he or she may have fallen two years behind the normal educational cycle, such that when the person reaches the age of 18 he or she may be studying for the junior certificate or starting the senior cycle. Having talked to people, including the principal of the O'Connell School, I note there could be people in a class aged 20; the school is not sure of the exact age of these students but they are certainly over 18 years of age. We will raise this matter with the Minister because it is a political matter as much as an operational matter. Does Ms Naughton consider that people who are on the cusp of being integrated into our society — which is what this is all about — should not be deprived of the possibility of doing their leaving certificate in the schools they attend and that they should not be treated like cattle merely because they have reached the age of 18, are no longer the responsibility of the Department of Education and Science and have been lifted into the clutches of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform? I get the impression that there is not a high-level political co-ordination group for this specific area. In the absence of such a group, does Ms Naughton think it advisable for such a group to be established?

Ms Breda Naughton

The Deputy might provide us with those details because as he said this is something new. We have a member of staff co-located in the Reception and Integration Agency. If the Deputy were to give us detailed information on this, we could check this out. Our obligation in this respect is that all children are entitled to a school education from the age of 6 to the age of 16. If asylum seekers come into the system before the age of 18, they are entitled to become involved in education.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I have two other questions I would like to deal with briefly as I believe a vote will be called on the Order of Business. The research in this area is interesting. Will Ms Naughton indicate the cost of it? If she does not have that information, she might communicate it to the committee.

The Department has applied a value for money evaluation for the teaching of English as a secondary language. Does the Department apply a similar logic to the teaching of Gaelic? Is there a value for money mechanism in terms of the amount of money spent by the Department of Education and Science on the teaching of the Irish language and, if so, would the methodology be similar to that which applies to the teaching of English as a secondary language?

My other question relates to item 5 in the executive summary dealing with the integration of education services. I note that from 1 September last year the remit of the under-resourced and over-stretched NEWB has been extended to include responsibility for home school community liaison, the school completion programme and the visiting teacher service for Travellers in addition to its core subject. How is that working on the ground?

Ms Breda Naughton

I will ask Ms Anne O'Mahony to answer the Deputy's question on the cost of the research that was done by the ESRI and the OECD.

Ms Anne O’Mahony

The ESRI research cost in the order of €250,000 and off-hand I understand the OECD research cost €65,000, but I would have to check that for the Deputy.

Ms Breda Naughton

I will ask Mr. Hubert Loftus to deal with the Deputy's question on the teaching of English and Irish.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

In terms of a VFM evaluation for the teaching of Irish.

Ms Breda Naughton

Yes, a VFM evaluation. We did a value for money evaluation of teaching English as an additional language, but there is also a clause in the circular that can be applied for additional resources in terms of Irish, but the value for money evaluation was done on the teaching of English as an additional language for migrants.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I understand the Deputy's question essentially is whether a similar type VFM evaluation would be done for the teaching of Irish in general. We liaise with the Department of Finance on VFM evaluations that are carried out and obviously the Department has a limited capacity to deal with a number of VFM evaluations. Given the extent of resources, some €100 million, allocated to the teaching of English as an additional language, the teaching of English was selected for evaluation. Whether such an evaluation would be carried out on the teaching of Irish in the future is something that could be considered.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

If the allocation for the teaching of English as an additional language is €100 million, what does Mr. Loftus consider is the spend on the teaching of Irish as an additional language for the majority of people for whom Irish would be an additional language?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I would not be able to give an estimate for that off-hand.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Can Mr. Loftus indicate the order of magnitude of that?

Ms Breda Naughton

We can forward that information to the Deputy.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We could. At primary level, there are 31,000 plus teachers and the teaching of Irish is part of their function. This figure would be an integrated part of that function. It would be difficult to be put a precise figure on it.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

It is not impossible to do it?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Nothing is impossible.

Ms Breda Naughton

We can research it and provide the Deputy with an answer but it is not simple to do it.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Not just in quantitative terms.

Mr. Jim Mulkerrins

The Deputy asked how the integration of the services under the NEWB is working out. Locally it is working out very well. As practices at local level were well integrated and people were working well together, that partly provided the rationale for proceeding with it in the first place. Regionally and nationally that was not the case and it made sense that if we were learning from what was happening in local communities that we would apply it to the system regionally and nationally. At a national level, it is working very well. In the recent past, the NEWB has run a number of seminars for the senior and middle management teams and the sharing of experiences has been positive. I attended both of those seminars and fed into them the Department's perspective on the rationale for integration. There are a number of outstanding IR and HR issues.

In terms of resources, the Deputy mentioned that the NEWB is underfunded. As an agency, in the past it was primarily responsible for school attendance and concerns were expressed about resources. The new integrated services bring an additional 600 staff, approximately, including home-school-community liaison people and full-time workers within the school completion programme. When the school completion programme is up and running at full steam there are an additional approximately 3,000 part-time sessional workers as well. It brings together approximately €70 million overall in the cost of those three programmes. We are leaving out the visiting teacher service for Travellers for the moment. The allocation this year to the NEWB alone was €9.9 million but the cost of school completion and home-school-community liaison are between €30 million and €31 million each.

The visiting teacher service is a relatively small element of this in terms of cost and numbers. There are only 41 visiting teachers for Travellers and it made sense to include them because they provide school completion and home-school-community liaison type work for Travellers.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Does the Department intend to consult the IPPN about the effectiveness of the integration of these services?

Mr. Jim Mulkerrins

On the day of the announcement last May, I rang the IPPN and informed it of what was being proposed. We ran a number of consultation discussions since then. The discussions were not just on the integration but we are also consulting about the identification process to be deployed in the new DEIS and on the evaluation of DEIS and the integration pieces fitting into that. The IPPN has been fully involved in that. I also spoke at the leadership development seminar before Christmas which was chaired by the chairman of the IPPN, Mr. Pat Goff.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The presentation Ms Naughton gave to the committee is impressive in that many numbers were mentioned. I am shocked at the amount of money spent on the research, especially the €250,000 to the ESRI, which is more than €300,000 already, given that so far there is no evaluation of the quality of language and learning outcomes for children with English as an additional language. Ms Naughton acknowledged that one size does not fit all in terms of the support needed. I understand that 31 children are required for one English language support teacher. Does Ms Naughton recognise that 31 children from Nigeria have more English than 31 children from Poland? What changes will be made to the allocation model used to appoint English language teachers based on the variety of needs that present in a school and the levels of English the children have?

There is a serious difficulty. Providing basic English is not adequate. It must be upgraded to providing curriculum English so the child can function at a particular level in a class. Take the example of children entering fourth, fifth or sixth class in a primary school. They are facing transition to second level education. If they are being pulled out of class to attend basic English lessons, where they learn their colours and numbers, they will be totally lost back in their class. What plans are in place to help them function at the academic level of their peers? That is critical. Does Ms Naughton have an evaluation of outcomes and, if so, how successful is the system?

I have been in contact with schools that have a large proportion of migrant children who need language support. Ms Naughton mentioned that where 25% or more of the children in a school are migrant children, the school will get extra language teachers. I am aware of a school where 33% of the children need English language support and it just has four teachers. Ms Naughton said some schools have five or six teachers. She needs to look again at those numbers.

Has the Department considered the fact that any further cuts to English language support or the premature exit of children from English language support will result in those children filling the general allocation model for learning support? As they cannot function at the required level, they will end up being put in learning support, which is not the support they need. They need language learning support; they do not necessarily have a learning difficulty. That is important. If that practice continues, the children will displace Irish children who need learning support for genuine learning difficulties.

Ms Naughton made a broad general statement in her report which she might explain. She said migrant parents have an education level equivalent to that of their native peers. What does that mean? In DEIS schools research shows that migrant students tend to raise the standards. Which standards do they raise? What percentage of migrant children raise standards? It is an incredibly general statement.

Ms Breda Naughton

We fully acknowledge there is communicative language and academic language. I will pass the question to Mr. Gary O'Donnchadha who represents the inspectorate which has conducted detailed evaluations in 45 schools so far.

Chairman

I will have to suspend the sitting shortly owing to a vote in the Dáil. We will resume after the vote.

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

I am glad the Senator put emphasis on what is happening in schools and classrooms. The data we have is hugely valuable but the opportunity the inspectorate took to go into schools to evaluate teaching and learning has been very important. We have inspected 30 primary and 15 post-primary schools. In that inspection process we visited the schools, interviewed principals and staff, conducted extensive questionnaires with pupils and parents and visited the classrooms of both support and mainstream teachers. We reviewed planning documentation and so forth. Each of those reports resulted in a set of recommendations and advice sent directly to the schools concerned. The schools were representative of schools that have more than two EL support teachers. All the reports are available on the Department's website.

We have reported back to the individual schools and later this year we will produce a composite report to provide the overarching trends and findings with regard to quality. Our findings are encouraging regarding the quality of provision in primary schools. We found a very good culture of inclusion in the schools we inspected. Parents and pupils were overwhelmingly satisfied with the school climate. The principals are leading the integration and inclusion of migrants very well in schools in general and we found good quality teaching and good learning environments across the schools. There had been very good continuous professional development, CPD, engagement in many of the schools and we observed good planning processes in those schools.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

What about the language acquisition of the student essential for the curriculum level, be it fourth or fifth class? What were the findings in that regard?

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

It was very evident in the primary settings that the teachers had a very good understanding of the need both for general conversational language and academic language. All the work done on the implementation of the primary curriculum over the past ten years has paid great dividends in the understanding the teachers have that all teachers are language teachers.

Chairman

I must interrupt to suspend the sitting.

Sitting suspended at 10.50 a.m. and resumed at 11.15 a.m.

Chairman

I call on Mr. O'Donnchadha to continue.

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

The 30 inspections of primary schools and the 15 evaluations conducted in post-primary schools were published on our website. All of them are available. They contain an account of the strengths and weaknesses in each of the schools in regard to the integration of and provision for migrant learners. Later this year, we will publish a composite report in respect of that.

The evaluations of classrooms suggest there is very good practice in many of the schools and that the development of individualised teaching for EAL students and the support provided in the withdrawal settings has been working very well. There is good practice there.

As suggested by Senator Healy Eames, we would like to see more support within classrooms encouraged by inspectors. We would like to see that further developed. The new assessment kits which have been developed will provide a very good mechanism for schools to capture the particular learning needs of pupils at various levels and provide for appropriate interventions in the withdrawal settings and in the classrooms.

Deputy Quinn mentioned provision for Gaeilge and Gaeilge as an additional language. There is not really a direct parallel. Gaeilge is not an additional language in our system in that it is an official language taught in schools as a mainstream part of the programme. It is compulsory in the school system. In terms of establishing the costs of that, the costs can be inferred from the overall budget for the head count of the total number of teachers in the system. An exercise could be done to allocate the proportion of time schools spend on Gaeilge to get an estimate for the costs involved for the Deputy.

Ms Breda Naughton

Mr. Hubert Loftus will give the committee data on the level of provision of EAL support.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

My role relates to the teacher allocations. Following up on some of the points raised by Senator Healy Eames, she mentioned 31 pupils entitled in a school to one teacher. For the purposes of clarification, that would entitle a school to two additional language support teachers.

In general terms, when we talk about language support provision it is important to make the point that the language support teachers are an additional resource to the school over and above the standard teaching cohort in the school. All of the pupils who require language support are counted in the same way as every other pupil for teacher allocations for the mainstream classrooms and for capitation, and so on. We then give an enhanced allocation to those schools based on the thresholds in the circular.

She also mentioned a school with 33% of the pupils requiring language support which had four teachers. My responsibility in the Department covers all primary and post-primary schools and I am not in a position to comment on individual cases, except to state that the school concerned may have been entitled to either two or three posts under the circular and, maybe, got one on appeal to bring it up to four. Essentially, the structure is that schools can get up to four posts under the circular and they may get up to one or two more posts under the appeals system. The main point to make is that part of the reduced numbers of language support teachers in the system comes through from the changes to the allocation thresholds but it is critically important to make the point that this all is demand driven and demand will dictate ultimately the numbers of language support teachers in the system.

Ms Breda Naughton

On Senator Healy Eames's question about the level of education of the migrant parents which we had in our document, there was an excellent report produced by the CSO in 2008 based on the Census 2006 which looked at the answers in the census provided by what they classified as non-Irish nationals, and they asked them for their levels of education. If one looks at that, one will see the different levels of education of migrants. They looked at it from a perspective of the UK, the EU 15, the EU 15 up to 25 and the rest of the world, and they were able to classify the level of education of each. They found, unlike in countries such as Denmark and Germany, that in Ireland the majority of migrants possessed a level of education that was equal to or higher than the Irish. We must celebrate the fact that we have such level of education among migrants and they are a considerable asset to society.

We were also criticised for spending money on research. We are damned if we do and we are damned if we do not. We estimated — while the committee had a short sos — that 0.25% was spent on a once-off basis.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

In defence of Senator Healy Eames, she was the only one who made the observation that there was no measurement of outcomes. She is a professional researcher. It was not that she was against research. It was only that she wondered about the evaluation of the benefit of the investment in research.

Ms Breda Naughton

As well as the ESRI and the OECD reports which we paid consultants to produce, we carried out the value for money review within the Department at no extra cost. Between that and the inspector's evaluation, we are looking to see the quality of education. We are using the skills and capacity within the Department. As with other documents, we work with the inspectorate to provide us with advice on the quality of teaching and learning. I think that is all the questions answered.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I understood Ms Naughton mentioned a reduction of 100 teachers in the professional development area, from 250 to 150. Will she confirm it?

The way professional development of teachers is bring provided is different than in the past where the Department offered it to the schools. My information, from a number of schools, is that they must apply for it now and they may not get it in certain instances. Could Ms Naughton elaborate on that? She mentioned to Deputy Brian Hayes that the Department was looking at other ways of providing it. Would she expand on what she means by other ways of providing that professional development? On the ground it seems less available than it was.

Some schools that have up to 90% of children requiring language support are concerned that the system is not flexible enough to take account of their circumstances. Will Ms Naughton to address that issue? My sense of it, from the small number of schools involved, is that they are not getting the flexibility they deserve.

Ms Naughton mentioned that the Department received no appeals from post-primary schools. I ask her to expand why that is. Is it because there is not a need for it? Is it because the schools think they will not get the original decision overturned? Is it an independent appeals process? What is the process?

Has Ms Naughton any information on whether following the change in the economy there are fewer students because their parents who were here working have left?

Ms Breda Naughton

I will take the questions in reverse order. Ms O'Mahony will speak about the number of migrants in the country.

Ms Anne O’Mahony

We know from the most recent CSO statement up to April 2009 that people were leaving the country. However, we also know that people with children are not leaving. Traditionally, those are the final migration patterns to change, which makes sense. If one is established in a country, one will not pack up bag and baggage unless there is a strong incentive.

Our figures for post-primary schools show an increase from 24,000 in the previous academic year to 28,000 in this academic year. The numbers of migrants have risen at post-primary level.

At primary school, we have figures for 2007-2008 but, unfortunately, we do not have figures for subsequent years. We should have figures for this year available shortly. The figures for 2007-2008 are 44,000 and we expect that those will increase, particularly with the birth rate where there are many migrants settling in Ireland and having children here.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

On a point of clarification, would that be 44,000 out of the approximate 490,000 pupils in primary?

Ms Anne O’Mahony

Approximately 10%, that is correct.

Deputy John O’Mahony

The needs are as great as ever, or increasing, in the educational system.

Ms Anne O’Mahony

The figures appear to show that at post-primary the numbers are increasing. At primary level we are waiting for final figures for this year but we expect the system to continue to include a large number of migrants. In the past we might have had migrants coming in at older ages, such as aged 7 or 8, whereas much of the time now we are having migrants coming right through the system, and the English language support needs may be less. We just do not know. We must see how it progresses.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is that not picked up in the annual roll return to the Department?

Ms Anne O’Mahony

That annual return is exactly what we are waiting to finalise in the case of the primary census. Unfortunately, although the question was asked in 2007-2008 for the return purposes, it was not asked in the subsequent year but it is being asked again this year.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Why was that?

Ms Anne O’Mahony

It was felt in the first year that they wanted to refine the question and there was some further consideration given to it. I am not quite sure about the reasons for this. It is being asked this year and we will have figures for this year.

Ms Breda Naughton

Mr. Loftus will now address the committee on the numbers of teachers available, appeals, and so on.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Two questions were posed in respect of why some schools have allocations of up to 90% and there is a feeling that the system is not sufficiently flexible. Following the Government's decision in budget 2009 in respect of the allocation thresholds, we wanted to set out a transparent and structured method in respect of the allocation of language support provision. As a result, we published circular 15/09, which sets out a structure and transparent mechanism in respect of the allocation of up to four language support teachers. There is flexibility in the system to give additionality to schools with high percentages of pupils who require language support.

The threshold at primary level is that if more than 25% of a school's pupils require language support, that school is eligible to appeal under our staffing appeals process. We received more than 60 appeals for the current school year from primary schools. This resulted in more than 70 additional teaching posts being allocated to the schools in question. Typically, most would have got one additional post while a small number were given two.

At post-primary level, the threshold for making an appeal is that a school must have a significant number of pupils requiring language support. There is no defined number in respect of post-primary schools and this grants a greater degree of flexibility. The circular also provides that if post-primary schools have cohorts of pupils, in either the junior or senior cycles, who require language support, they can appeal to the Department. No appeals were received, which is ultimately an issue for individual schools. We published the circular and made schools aware of it. As part of our allocation process for the coming school year, we have highlighted the fact that there is an appeals process.

Why is this happening? It may be that pupils moving to post-primary level who have already received a few years of quite decent language support at primary level are fairly well established in the context of such support. We provide more than 360 language support teachers in addition to the other teaching posts we provide to post-primary schools. The post-primary system has enhanced teaching allocations for language provision. It is just that none of the schools sought additionality over and above that through the appeals process.

We are not prescriptive in our circulars in respect of how schools should use the resource. We give them flexibility. If, therefore, schools have particularly high concentrations of pupils with language needs, it is open to them to reduce their class sizes for that cohort of pupils and use their additional language teachers in that way.

Ms Breda Naughton

Mr. O'Donnchadha will provide some additional information on that topic.

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

A question was posed with regard to the new format for professional development in schools. There is no doubt that our objective in respect of continued professional development, CPD, is to obtain the maximum return from the available resources relating to such development. The research and the information gleaned on foot of the 45 school inspections we have carried out indicate that we are not dealing with just an issue of teacher expertise. There is also the major contribution that really good school co-ordination and planning processes can add to quality in schools.

We envisage that any future CPD process should have a particular impact on the co-ordination function in schools and on how advice, support and guidelines in respect of how schools co-ordinate EAL provision and how the expertise available among support teachers can be communicated right across schools through staff meetings and other curriculum initiatives. In impacting on the co-ordination function through CPD, it is possible to obtain a major return, in the context of quality, as a result of adopting a whole-school approach.

Ms Breda Naughton

The Council of Europe refers to language as subject and language in subject and states that all teachers, not just EAL teachers, are language teachers.

Deputy Mary Wallace

Like Deputy O'Mahony, I was somewhat confused with regard to the aspect of flexibility. However, that matter was dealt with by Mr. Loftus when he outlined the position regarding circular 15/09. Am I correct in stating that under said circular schools can obtain up to four teachers and that, thereafter, further teachers might be obtained through the appeals process?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. We wanted to put in place a transparent process so that schools would understand that to which they are entitled. The circular provides that, under the thresholds set down, they can have up to four teaching posts. There is also flexibility for schools with particularly high concentrations of pupils with language needs. There is a staffing appeals process that deals with those applications. Under that process, additional posts can be granted. This has resulted in some schools having up to five or six language teachers. The important point is that all these teachers are additional to the mainstream classroom teachers who are already in situ in schools.

Deputy Mary Wallace

That is extremely helpful. Senator Healy Eames referred to schools with 31 pupils who require language support. Would Mr. Loftus reply to her by stating that in such cases there would be two rather than one additional teacher? Does this mean there would be two additional language teachers as well as one teacher in the classroom, that there would be three teachers?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

If there are fewer than 30 pupils who require language support in a school, there is one post. If there are 31 or more pupils, the threshold for the second post comes into play.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

In such circumstances, I should have said 30 pupils. Let us be careful, there is only one pupil in the difference.

Deputy Mary Wallace

There were 28 pupils requiring language support in one of the schools in my constituency. I was just trying to figure out the mathematics of the situation. Are we stating that these children will have their class teachers, that there will be a second teacher allocated if up to 30 of them require language support and that a third will be allocated if the number is 31 plus?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. It is an enhanced allocation. Whether there are 30 or 31 pupils, they all count with regard to the allocation of classroom teachers. The level of additionality relates to the aspect of the threshold that is met.

Deputy Mary Wallace

Mr. Loftus and Ms O'Mahony referred to the demand-driven aspect of this matter. Ms O'Mahony stated that approximately 28,000 pupils at post-primary level and in the region of 44,000 at primary level come into play in this regard. She then referred to the birth rate and the fact that individuals, not necessarily families, may return home or that people may remain here and that their children may be born here. If a child is born here, is he or she considered a migrant by the education system? I would have thought that if he or she was born in Ireland, he or she would have been treated in the same way as the rest of us.

Ms Anne O’Mahony

We refer to them as second generation migrants. When they enter school at age four, they may or may not speak English on a par with their native peers. We must be conscious of that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The key issue for the Department is whether they can speak the language. Regardless of whether they are born in Ireland or elsewhere, it is the language need that determines what they obtain from the Department.

Deputy Mary Wallace

It is a complex issue. Ms O'Mahony referred to that group of people. Ms Naughton referred to some migrants who may come here and who may possess a higher level of education than some of their Irish counterparts. It is not straightforward and it is not possible to say that 20 pupils should be catered for in a particular way.

It is interesting that no appeals were made by post-primary schools. However, this might be explained by the fact that when these children move to second level they may be better versed in their use of the English language. This entire matter relates to the use of the English language. Children born in Ireland can use English better at the age of four than a child who has just entered the country. When they go to a post-primary school, they will have progressed and perhaps the teachers will feel it is not necessary to make the appeal. The officials are dependent on the school's assessment of that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It is demand-driven and that ultimately dictates the numbers. At post-primary level, we put in more than 360 teachers. There are many teachers in there and it can be a reflection of the job being done. We should congratulate the primary school system for the job it does in addressing the language needs of pupils.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I refer to flexibility. Is it true that if more than 25% of pupils have a language need, the school is entitled to a set number of additional teachers but if only 20% of pupils have such a need the school will have to proceed with the same number of teachers?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The appeals board will examine those cases. Access to the board is determined by whether the school has more than 25% of its pupils with a need and the board would then make its decision having regard to the proportion of the pupils. The appeals board operates independently of the Department. I do not make those decisions but——

Deputy John O’Mahony

Is there a bigger allocation for schools with 80% or 90%——

Mr. Hubert Loftus

That is the experience we have from the outcome because most of the schools that end up with five or six language teaching posts are generally those with the highest concentrations.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

With regard to the level of post-primary appeals and a significant enrolment, Mr. Loftus said the Department did this to be flexible. At what level does flexibility kick in? There must be a benchmark for what the Department regards as a significant level of enrolment. What percentage of appeals are successful?

I refer to the DEIS classification. How do migrant children fit in to a school achieving DEIS status? I acknowledge the process is under review but Mr. Loftus stated that migrant status is not equivalent to disadvantaged status. While I accept that, what is the thinking behind this and how will it have a role in the DEIS designation?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We do not necessarily see a success rate in appeals. The appeals board makes its decisions and, ultimately, that is the outcome of it. In total, 100 appeals were made and 64 schools got something from the process. Approximately two thirds got something extra. All those schools had more than 25% of pupils with language needs.

When we drafted the circular, we deliberately did not include the 25% figure to ensure eligibility to make appeals to give a little flexibility to the system, just in case there was a genuine and hard case in a school with 23% or 24% of pupils with a language need. It would be of that order. Ultimately, all that was doing was giving access to an appeals board. The board would then assess each case on its merits to see whether something was warranted. Given that there were no appeals at post-primary level, in our documentation to the school system for the coming school year's allocation, we have given more prominence to the fact that there is an appeals process. We will probably have a better idea of what is required after we go through the allocation process during the summer.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

While I acknowledge the Department does not classify appeals as successful, I am sure the schools do. However, 64% seems to be a high success rate and, therefore, it pays to engage in the appeals process.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Absolutely. These schools are at the top end in the percentage of their pupil numbers with language needs. We very much wanted that flexibility within the system. We did not want to set a precise number. There is flexibility and it is a genuine appeals process. Our experience is that it works.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I seek clarification on the appeals process based on my experience with a school in Galway. It did not mean the school was provided with an additional teacher. It had four language teachers and this number was reduced to two. On appeal, it managed to get back up to three. That does not mean more teachers are being provided. How is that reflected in the Department's figures?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I would regard going from two to three as an increase in language support.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The cut was from four teachers to two before the number was increased to three. More than 50% of the infant classes comprised migrant children.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

There is a new application process for language support teachers every year. It is conducted in the spring and summer each year and it is a significant additional teaching resource given to the schools. The resource under the terms of the 2009 circular would have given that school two posts and under the appeals process it was given an extra post. That was its entitlement in that year. There will be a new application process. The school's requirement for language need will dictate what it gets under the circular and if more than 25% of pupils require language support, that will determine whether it is eligible to appeal. A new appeal process will dictate whether it gets additionality.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

The question I asked about DEIS has not been answered.

Mr. Jim Mulkerrins

Deputy Flynn asked how we might regard migrants in the context of the review of DEIS and the introduction of DEIS 2 or the new cycle. DEIS is a programme to deal with educational disadvantage, which is defined under section 32(9) of the Education Act 1998. It essentially means the impediments to education arising from social or economic disadvantage, which prevent students from deriving appropriate benefit from education. There is no doubt many migrants will carry one or a number of social or economic disadvantage characteristics. The characteristics used in the primary sector in 2005 were unemployment, local authority accommodation, lone parenthood, the number of Travellers within a school, the number of children from families with five or more children and the percentage of pupils eligible for free books under the free book scheme.

A number of children attending schools all over the State, irrespective of whether they are in DEIS, will carry one or several of those characteristics and, therefore, these individual characteristics do not necessarily imply a child is educationally disadvantaged. However, it is recognised that where there is a multiplicity of these characteristics, particularly where they are experienced by high concentrations of children within a community or school, it is more likely they will be affected by barriers to their education. Essentially we are talking about barriers that might be experienced within the home, community or school.

We know from the June 2009 ESRI report on adapting to diversity in particular and other research, that migrant children whether or not they carry these characteristics, are performing at equal to or better than their Irish peers. We recognise that they are bringing a new dimension to schools that was not there in 2005 when we considered this in the first instance. Ms Naughton mentioned that we have commenced the review of DEIS. At the beginning of the year we put in place a steering group which has met a number of external agents of the Department to look at the variables we will need to deploy next time out to identify schools carrying concentrations of disadvantaged children and the efficacy of the programmes we have in place to see whether they are meeting the needs of disadvantaged children. We recognise that we will have to look at the impact on schools of high numbers of newcomers. We hope that by the commencement of the autumn season we will be in a position to commence a comprehensive consultation process with the education partners, including schools, so that we can ask those questions. Obviously, the Department is somewhat isolated and is not in a position to determine this without the benefit of the experience of the school, school communities, the trade unions and the management bodies. We hope to have a fairly comprehensive consultation process in place at that stage. That will dovetail with the extensive evaluation we have maturing towards the end of the summer of the whole DEIS process and the findings of testing that has been taking place in rural and urban primary schools. We had our first round of testing in May 2007 and the second round will take place this coming May. I hope we will be in a position to gauge the impact of the supports we have in place in DEIS. I will be happy to return to the committee when that work has matured and to provide a progress report or update on it.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I was struck by what Mr. Loftus said on the flexibility allowed in the circular. This is not something one immediately associates with the Department of Education and Science. I wonder, in relation to what Mr. O'Donnchadha said about language as a communicative language and language as an academic language. There seems to be a convergence in measures of literacy, that young working class boys from the ages of 12 to 14 start to experience academic literacy problems in language and tend to drop out. The statistics show this. Does the flexibility for an English language support teacher enable a principal to combine a class that would have migrants who were having difficulty with academic English with a group of local Irish working class boys who were having difficulties with English as an academic language?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The additional resource we give for language support is primarily to meet the needs of pupils that have English language needs. The flexibility predominantly applies in a scenario where a large cohort of the pupils require language support. It provides options in terms of how additional provision is given. It gives flexibility at school level, which might mean withdrawal of a pupil for support, the language support teacher coming into the classroom or splitting up the cohort into two smaller classes.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I will give a specific scenario. In a school where a group of native Irish youngsters have difficulties with academic English and are falling behind as a consequence and where there is also a group of relatively bright migrant children who, because of their background, have good communicative English, but problems with academic English, could the school management decide to use the one teacher to address their same need, which has arisen from two different starting points?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I will ask Mr. Gary O'Donnchadha from the inspectorate to address that question.

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

The reality is that the problems and language needs are likely to be different. The most successful place for the development of the migrant student with good communicative English is within the mainstream class, by ensuring the contextual cues are all there in terms of supporting that person's integration.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Would principals have the flexibility to make that decision?

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

They would have, provided there was a good analysis of the particular learning need.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Thank you.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I understand that since the ban on recruitment, the number of inspectors has reduced by approximately 20%. Two years ago there were 160 inspectors, but now there are only 133. These are the figures I received in response to a parliamentary question yesterday. How does this impact on the work of the inspectorate in this area?

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

There is no doubt that along with all other public bodies, we are subject to the moratorium and our staff numbers are down. We have engaged in reorganisation and prioritised work. We are trying to ensure we run a successful inspection programme, so we have a strong inspection plan in place.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Therefore, there is plenty of work for inspectors.

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

We will do what we can with the 20% fewer inspectors. We will also make sure that we choose high value inspection processes that impact on schools and school improvement.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

We are all trying to achieve the same end. We want to bring our migrant children to as high a level as possible of English language acquisition. Has the Department or inspectorate considered the following and if so, what commitment have they made to them? Have they considered: intensive summer camps where migrant children would experience immersion in the English language; intercultural or multicultural centres in communities where there is a high density of migrant children, for example, Doughuisce in Galway; a practice called "sheltered immersion" which involves in-class rather than withdrawal support where the children are supported in the classroom; and a specific, additional English language inspectorate? Just because we do things one way does not mean that is always the right way. Have the Department and the inspectorate an open mind and what are they doing with regard to these?

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

I will take the last two points. We would not consider a specific English language inspectorate. We have a remit under section 13 of the Education Act to bring quality to the entire system.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

How many inspectors currently specialise in inspecting English as an additional language, EAL? What specific training have they and Mr. O'Donnchadha received for that?

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

In terms of how we go about the work, we do not carve up the set of inspectors and term one group a set of EAL inspectors and another a set of DEIS inspectors. We adopt a business plan approach and look at the needs of the system. Where, for example, EAL was a priority in recent years, we prioritised that in our business plan and allocated a serious level of inspection resources to it. We also ensured we had high levels of continuing professional development, CPD, in our inspectorate. Therefore, we engaged in a high level of gearing up for the work so that we had the necessary expertise. We continue to have that. In that sense, it is not appropriate to cut off a number of people for the inspections.

The Senator mentioned sheltered immersion. That is very good proxy for the kind of best practice we are actively pursuing, in particular in primary schools where we suggest the EAL support teacher could work within the classroom and alongside the mainstream class teacher.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

How many are doing that and how many have the confidence to work that way? This is a different issue.

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

This is something we are trying to promote. We are trying to develop this and have examples of good practice. I accept it does not happen in the majority of schools. Our inspection reports and our composite report will deal with the issue and will try to promote it and its benefits more widely.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

With respect, it does not even happen in the majority of learning support situations where language is not a difficulty. Therefore, I would be surprised to see it happen quickly in EAL situations.

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

I accept that. On the learning support process, we encourage in-class support and our inspection reports highlight that a level of that goes on. As children progress through primary school into more senior classes, the student or learner prefers the withdrawal model. I understand, therefore, that there are other context factors that run against our advice.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Based on my experience with children, I do not agree.

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

I am not validating it. What I am explaining are some of the context factors that surround how schools employ learning support or EAL withdrawal. However, we are strong advocates of providing the best blend of models, withdrawal support where that is appropriate, but also in-class support. We want to ensure we minimise the lost curriculum time for learners, whether they are learning support category or ——

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I do not think the Department is monitoring the situation that closely. My experience from talking to children at the upper end of the primary school is that they often do not want to be pulled out for support. Getting the support in the class is not about embarrassment. It is often to do with the traditional model not being changed.

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

When we engage with schools in whole school evaluation, we examine the support for students very carefully. Where weaknesses are identified, in terms of either learning support or EAL support, we communicate that clearly to the board of management and to the whole staff in a plenary staff session and where we regard it as sufficiently serious, we follow up with schools.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The Department has the power to change it.

Mr. Gary Ó Donnchadha

We are currently joining up our inspection processes so that inspections in 2009 or 2010 become a development agenda which we can use when we return to a school for either a whole-school evaluation or for an unannounced inspection. We can then follow up on whether the school has moved on in that regard.

Ms Breda Naughton

Senator Healy Eames also asked about intercultural and multicultural centres.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Summer camps.

Ms Breda Naughton

There are examples of summer camps which have been provided to the programme refugees who come into the country. This model is being examined because we are looking at different models. The VECs, including in Galway, have worked with several schools to provide resources to the schools where the migrant parents and the Irish parents can work together. They can access language tuition and work on aspects of child care, and English and intercultural studies for non-Irish parents can be provided. We try to work from the mainstream model. The funding provided to adult literacy and adult language courses is provided through the VECs.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is this a uniform model across the country? Will every child with English language needs qualify to receive a place in a summer camp? Will there be universal provision? We are looking at lessening the need for support in the classroom.

Ms Breda Naughton

It is currently being examined but I cannot give the Senator any further details.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I have difficulty with——

Chairman

I am sorry, Senator, we are running out of time. The Senator has made three interventions and she has made her point.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I have concluded on that issue and it is being looked at.

Deputy John O’Mahony

The Department confirmed today that there are 600 fewer language support teachers and there has been a reduction in the number of inspectors and 100 fewer people available for professional development. We have also been told there is an increase in pupil numbers in primary and secondary schools. The problem is how to provide a better service or an increase in services with the numbers being cut all around the place.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Teacher allocation is my area. The circular No.15/09 sets out thresholds for the allocation of the language support teachers. If there is increased demand in the system the number of teachers will increase accordingly. It is demand-driven and this will ultimately dictate how many teachers will be in the system. After the summer, we will probably have a better idea of the number of language teachers in the system and the demand in terms of pupils.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I based my question on the information given by the delegation.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The new application process has begun. We are receiving applications which will give us a better understanding of the numbers expected in the system in September. Even though numbers might increase at post-primary level, ultimately, the numbers requiring language support could be a different figure. The figures given to the committee were for the overall number of migrants but many of them might have very good English and would not require any language support. It is important to look at the full picture.

Ms Breda Naughton

I will ask Mr. O'Donnchadha and Ms O'Mahony to comment.

Mr. Gary O’Donnchadha

In common with many other public services, we are talking about working smarter. I made the point that it is not so much about seeking more resources for schools. We have put resources into schools and now it is time to ensure we are getting the yield from that resource. Many decisions can be made in schools which will have a different outcome in terms of quality, such as decisions about co-ordination, school planning, joining up the work of withdrawal teachers and mainstream class teachers. Resources are available for CPD which can be co-ordinated in an intelligent way. These are all relevant to working in a smarter way.

The inspectorate is working in a different way. We have introduced a new practice of unannounced inspections at primary level so we will be able to get around to more schools and follow up on particular items.

Ms Anne O’Mahony

I wish to clarify to the Deputy that the migrant numbers I gave refer to migrants who speak English as an additional language and those who do not. We estimate around 30% of the cohort are native English speakers so they can be removed from our calculations. The profile of our migrants is changing. There is a big difference between a teenager with no English coming into the system and a four year old with no English coming into the system. There is a critical period hypothesis which says that children learn English much easier at earlier ages and this experience is reflected in the schools. We might be looking at a different profile of students and this may also affect demand.

Chairman

I wish to raise a number of points. I know the journalists do not write the headlines but I refer to some very reprehensible headlines arising from the previous committee meeting. I suggest another headline for today, "Cloud of volcanic ash covers committee". It looks as if there has been a great deal of hot material spewing out of the volcano and we are not getting to the nub. At the previous meeting I said I understood the Department of Education and Science had taken an interest in the debate that morning and I proposed we invite a delegation from the Department to respond to the recommendations made by the delegates. This was agreed by the committee. Page 10 refers to one recommendation but other than that, the whole debate between the committee members and the visiting delegation bears no relevance to what took placeon 11 February. It is as if they are two separate meetings. It would be remiss of me not to put the points made on 11 February to the members which is what I am going to do, no matter how long it takes. I will acknowledge that the DEIS 3 was mentioned on page 10 but it was not mentioned in the executive summary or in the opening remit. However, I appreciate that DEIS 3 was mentioned.

Ms Treasa Lowe, the principal of Scoil Choilm in Porterstown said the fact that EAL, English language support, can be cut short can pose a problem as children move up through the school. This issue was also mentioned to me by Ms Colette Kavanagh, principal of Esker Educate Together school. If the support is cut off after a period this might make sense in the case where there are English-speaking children who can encourage the children to move on but this does not make sense in a school where none of the children speak English. The cut-off point needs to be examined.

Scoil Gráinne is an 83% newcomer school. This is one of the lower percentages among the schools that attended the committee meeting but it is still a significant percentage. David Campbell from Scoil Gráinne said that, "fewer than 10% of primary schools in the country have greater than 20% of their population coming from international newcomer backgrounds and schools with more than 50% must be an even small proportion." In all the discussions we have talked about support for schools with more than 25% but we have not talked about the special cases of the 80% and 90% because they are different. Mr. Campbell said it is right that these schools are seen as different with different needs and therefore requiring different resourcing and that the focus on language acquisition alone is insufficient. He said that owing to the small number of schools involved, the provision of a DEIS-style resource would not be a major strain. I will deal with DEIS-style resources in a moment.

Mr. Tony McGinley, principal of St. John the Evangelist school, said the current model for English as an additional language, EAL, does not meet the needs of our schools and does not even come close. This is what a principal said at the last meeting. He said it is a model of immersion but they do not have children in that school on which to model the language. One cannot have an immersion model for kids who are unable to immerse because they are immersing in a hotchpotch of different languages from different countries and not in English. The kids are dependent on the teachers. He also said recent changes to EAL support are based on a model which is a crazy situation because the language support programme with DEIS schools could assist. The majority of children attending these schools do not attend preschool and some go straight into the school without the required skills. That is another factor. Even the early childhood initiative will not change the case.

Ms Colette Kavanagh said it was a matter of planning. Obviously this is not the remit of the officials present today. However, we need to plan for future schools owing to demographics. It is worth repeating what Ms Kavanagh said because we appear to have gone off on a tangent in our discussion today. We are not talking about language support in general. We are talking about language support specifically for those schools which are isolated cases at present but will not be in the future. They do not have a model that serves them. Ms Kavanagh said:

Schools are over-subscribed; all the schools in Lucan and other areas take in all children, but as soon as they become over-subscribed enrolment policies come into play, and when this happens it is newcomer families who are disproportionately at the bottom of the list under every patronage system... If it is a first-come-first-served system... This is something we must consider as a society.

She also said:

Schools that open initially with more than 90% newcomer children are a special case. We do not have any Irish children or Irish parents to help build a sense of community in the school.

It is not just about language; it is also about community and interaction. She later said that cutting off support after three years did not make sense because there are no English speaking students to keep those students moving on. I note that all of the principals who were here that day are present for this meeting, which shows the interest and that they want to hear answers from the Department. Mr. David Campbell, Mr. Tony McGinley, Ms Colette Kavanagh, Mr. Tom Moriarty, Ms Annie Asgard and Mr. Brendan Forde, principal of St. Nicholas's national school in Claddagh, are all here. They are all watching to try to get sense of the Department's written response as to what will be done for their schools.

Ms Annie Asgard said that representatives of the school had been here a number of times and that it is the same old story. They appear before the committee every two years and nothing changes. Departmental officials come in and give a certain response. It might be unfair in terms of the global changes, but in terms of specifics for the school it seems to be no change. Mr. Brendan Forde mentioned that his school had a Saturday education programme for which he hoped to get support. Senator Healy Eames alluded to that. It is not possible to have a Saturday school for every school. However, for the cohort over 80% or over 50% it would be possible because it is only a small number of schools and a small amount of money. The family school project is the best concept to introduce into the education system for this type of situation because it brings in the families and encourages a flowering of ideas and communication between the parents and the school. That is critical because it has a social as well as an educational element.

Ms Annie Asgard said:

When I came here originally the allocation was 14 children for one English as an additional language, EAL, teacher, with a maximum possibility of six teachers, although in some schools the figure might be higher. That allocation was cut in this school year.

That was also mentioned by Senator Healy Eames. So there are more children per teacher. Mr. Gary O'Donnchadha said the Department was looking to get more bang for its buck by educating the teachers within schools. However, schools with a very high EAL requirement have expertise and could teach the Department something. They do not need to be told what to do with their teachers. They need to be asked what they need to help their teachers. Ms Annie Asgard also said that there is no EAL training for teachers this year. Will that be addressed for next year?

I return to the issue of the DEIS identification framework. Mr. Jim Mulkerrins quoted section 32(9) of the Education Act 1998. I have just got the exact wording of the Act. The Department's submission to the committee stated: "It is important to stress that migrant status is not automatically equivalent to disadvantage." That is a "no brainer". However, would he not agree that young children with migrant status who do not have English as a first language and are banged in with many other children who have no English and have no kids to whom they can talk English and from whom they can learn English would be disadvantaged? Section 32(9) of the Education Act 1998 states:

In this section "educational disadvantage" means the impediments to education arising from social or economic disadvantage which prevent students from deriving appropriate benefit from education in schools.

Would we need a court case to prove that a definition of educational disadvantage covers schools with a very high cohort of non-English speaking students? They are disadvantaged. While the parents may have money, the children are socially and culturally disadvantaged. They are not getting the benefit from education in schools regardless of how smart they may be — the ERSI report indicates that in DEIS schools the migrant students tend to raise the standards. However, there is no point having a genius child who cannot convey that genius. It is pointlessly wasted. It is like the parable of the seeds spread out and not blooming. To help those children to bloom and build a better economy in 20 years they need to utilise their skills to the maximum of their potential and can only do that if they are allowed. We need to water and apply fertiliser. I am sorry if I am speaking in parables, but it is the only way it seems to make sense. They are economically disadvantaged and need support. All the representatives of the schools who appeared before the committee asked for a special model to be created for their types of schools. Departmental officials need to talk to them and utilise the expertise they have built up to build this model. The Department's submission stated:

The Oireachtas joint committee's proposal for a DEIS 3-type arrangement for schools with significant concentrations of migrants will be considered by the steering group. It is intended there will be a wide consultation process with stakeholders before the finalisation of the recommendations for the next identification process.

If we clear through all the volcanic ash it is positive. However, can the officials clarify that there will be a six to 12-month timeframe for that? Will the steering group actively consult the representatives of the schools who appeared before the committee and who are on the front line? Will action be taken on foot of this within a very short period? I do not want to have the departmental officials and the representatives of those schools appear before the committee in two years time to be told that the review group is to report shortly and when it reports it will be implemented in a further two years. While I know officials cannot comment on policy issues, there is no impediment to the steering group having a decision made and having proper consultation with the people from the schools which matter — not the ones marginally over 25%, but the ones that are over 50% and heading to 80% or 90%. Can Ms Naughton give a commitment to the committee that such a review will be done and dusted by the autumn so that we can get moving very quickly?

Ms Breda Naughton

I will ask Mr. Loftus and Mr. Mulkerrins to address the questions.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

In the first instance we came here as a Department, covering the various strands of the Department to give a comprehensive response to the issues raised. We did not go into detail on each specific item. We were conscious that we wanted to give the overall position so that the committee would have——

Chairman

The departmental officials were aware of that meeting and took an interest in it. The express wish of the committee at that meeting was that the officials should respond to the issues raised by the schools.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

In general terms we target resources as best we can within Government policy to meet the needs of schools with high concentrations of newcomers. The Department's circular 15/09 deliberately contained measures to allow schools at the top end of concentrations to get additionality. We drew up that circular not solely in our offices, but following consultation with the inspectorate and the integration unit. I met representatives of some of the management bodies and went out to some of the schools with high concentrations. They were not the schools that are represented today, but some schools in Dublin 15 which have other high concentrations.

Chairman

One of the schools from Dublin 15 is represented here.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It is not the particular school. I could not meet everyone. The reality is that the circular was drawn up following the Government decision in budget 2009 to reduce the level of language support to schools. What we wanted to do in implementing that Government decision, was to do so in a manner that gave the greatest possible alleviation to the schools with the high concentrations. We also wanted to do it in a clear and transparent way. We did that by setting out in a clear and structured way that schools covered by the circular can get up to four posts and we then gave eligibility to schools with high concentrations to access our appeals system.

We set the threshold at 25%, which does not mean schools with 80% or 90% do not have additional needs considered. If we set it at 80% or 90%, we would rule out those with 40% to 60%, which can be significant. We deliberately set the threshold at a reasonable level that allowed schools into our appeals system. Those schools with the very high concentrations, which are only a relatively small number of schools, are the ones which ultimately ended up with the top number of posts, say, five or six posts.

Chairman

It is not just about posts. It is that this model does not sit with a school that has such a requirement and such a deficit. Will there be a different model for such schools?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It is important to recognise that those posts represent enhancement of the allocation of posts which the schools already have. This is an additional resource that is given to the schools. It is important to make the point that given the current pressures on the public finances and the Government pressure to reduce the public sector pay bill, the scope is not there to provide additional resources over and above what is provided for in terms of dealing with demographics and catering for the commitments in the programme for Government.

Chairman

If they were DEIS schools, they would automatically get DEIS-type resources. That is the point.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I will let Mr. Mulkerrins deal with DEIS.

Mr. Jim Mulkerrins

I thank the Chairman for his question. He is quite right. I listened to the last meeting and I am familiar with the issues raised. I welcome the opportunity to address this because I know that, as we start out on a long process of consultation, there will be much soul searching on our part and on the part of the stakeholders we are dealing with to try to devise the most appropriate structure for DEIS.

We will have to take account of the specific and individual needs of newcomer children so we need to be absolutely certain what we are talking about. To get to the starting point on this, the definition of educational disadvantage that I read out, and which the Chairman repeated, focuses on social and economic circumstances. There is no doubt that newcomer children will suffer from social and economic difficulties. The question essentially is the extent to which those social and economic difficulties will act as barriers to children engaging in education.

We need to identify the barriers. By and large, when we consider social and economic difficulties experienced by Irish children, the barriers to education are, for example, the incapacity of families to support education because they have low expectation of outcomes for themselves and for children because parents may have had bad experiences in their own education. We consider communities where such children might live and where there may be low expectations and low aspirations. For example, we could be talking about housing estates where there is no tradition of employment so there is very little expectation that children will progress from primary and post primary into further and higher education or into employment. Because the communities and the families have a difficulty in supporting education for their children, the schools in those communities in some cases set low barriers of achievement.

This is what DEIS is focused on and trying to deal with. By and large, our experience so far, which is borne out by the research of the ESRI, is that migrant children experience one significant barrier, namely, the English language. Because of that, the supports that are put in place by the Department are specifically designed to address that deficit.

Chairman

Yes, but it is bad planning and in some cases corrupt planning going back years that has led to this situation whereby the fast growing areas are where more newcomers are coming in. We are paying for the relics of decisions made 25 years ago. In that case, it is not the expectations of the school that are at issue. It is the fact one is throwing a cohort into an area. Ms Colette Kavanagh referred to this, as did I——

Mr. Jim Mulkerrins

I did not agree with the Chairman's comments on the last occasion either.

Chairman

I am not even going to repeat the word, because it will be misinterpreted. However, the point is that people are treated in a certain way because of the way decisions were made years ago. That is what we are landed with. It is a huge disadvantage, even if there are the most motivated parents with the most motivated teachers, if they are all thrown by circumstance into a school where none of the pupils speak English. That is a disadvantage. The definition under the Education Acts does not state that it has to be interpreted a certain way. To me, that is disadvantage.

Mr. Jim Mulkerrins

The definition points to the barriers that "prevent" — the word "prevent" is key.

Chairman

Does Mr. Mulkerrins agree that the fact that none of their classmates speak English prevents them from moving forward?

Mr. Jim Mulkerrins

It might be an issue for the remaining classmates as well. What we are talking about here is the social context within a school, whether children can benefit from education and whether the school is capable of providing a balanced education. In circumstances where the Department deems it is not, additional supports are provided. This is what underpins DEIS, as matters stand.

Some 881 schools are in DEIS, which accounts for approximately 22% of all schools. Very significant additional supports in the order of 1,300 posts and approximately €220 million are spent on disadvantage in general. It is a significant investment, and that is aside from the investment in English language support and aside also from the investment in special educational needs, which accounts for approximately one ninth of the Department's overall spend, or €1 billion, and about 20,000 posts.

Chairman

I will stop Mr. Mulkerrins for a moment and tie in what he is saying with what Mr. Loftus said about certain cutbacks in education. The renewed programme for Government agreed in October 2009 made the commitment: "We will maintain language support funding to schools and guarantee that extra language support assistants will also be available in schools where more than 50% of pupils do not speak English as a first language." Whatever is happening this year, if the programme for Government is implemented as planned, the situation will improve one way or the other. Separate to that, however, while schools can speak for themselves and while one could throw in an extra couple of language supports in there, the schools are looking for a model that recognises that they are different, that they have particular needs and those needs need to be addressed in a holistic manner.

Mr. Jim Mulkerrins

Mr. Loftus might deal with the commitment in the programme for Government. On a cautionary note, DEIS is specifically designed to deal with a particular context. Because of that, the programme of supports that is in place, for example, home school liaison, the school completion programme and the intensive literacy supports that are in place in schools, are specifically designed to cater for or to deal with particular barriers. I note, given some of the commentary we have had on this issue, that home school teachers are trained essentially to engage with families who have a difficulty in supporting their children through education. That is not the experience of the majority of migrant families.

The Chairman wrote to the Minister by e-mail on this issue sometime before Christmas. The Minister in his response pointed out that a part of the role of the English language teacher is to undertake that engagement with families and with communities. Our view is that it is a whole-school responsibility and the classroom teacher, the principal and the English language teacher have a joint and several but an equal responsibility to do that engagement piece to try to address the barrier to learning that children may have.

I also point out that, since 2005, a number of new primary schools have opened in many of the areas where there are high concentrations of newcomer children. Many of those schools were included in DEIS each year. This is an issue we will again consider in the context of this review when we run the next identification process.

I believe that answers the majority of the questions.

Ms Breda Naughton

There was a question on the timescale of the consultation process.

Mr. Jim Mulkerrins

The consultation process will commence sometime directly after the summer and we hope it will conclude by Christmas. We are not able to say when the new identification process will be put in place because the consultation for DEIS generally will be fairly complex. The identifiers we used in 2005 are really no longer valid to the extent that they were in 2005. For example, we placed a high value on unemployment in 2005 because that was a time when the country nominally had 100% employment and if there was long-term unemployment within a community or family, there were generally reasons that were associated with poor educational outcomes within that family. That is no longer relevant. There are many towns and communities throughout the country where, since the economic downturn, employment has become an issue. That should not be translated into educational disadvantage. It does not mean that parents recently made unemployed are less capable of supporting their children through education.

Hubert Loftus

With regard to the programme for Government, we feel that what we are already doing on language support is consistent with the commitment in the programme for Government.

Breda Naughton

Reference was made to pre-schools. I referred to the fact that the pre-school service changed in January. It is available, and all parents are told about this service. The concern that migrant children are not involved in pre-school should dissipate but it is important to get that information to parents. A question was also asked about support for families. We do this in Claddagh through the VEC provision available. It is through further education family support that the Department provides assistance to schools.

Mr. Jim Mulkerrins

An extensive consultation process took place on the preparation of the intercultural education strategy. Many of the points raised at the previous meeting of the committee were aired and considered in the context of that consultation process.

Breda Naughton

A number of schools here were represented in that consultation process.

Chairman

I would like to continue the discussion but the fact that all of the Members have departed shows that we have gone beyond time. On behalf of the Houses of the Oireachtas and the committee I welcome members of the Finnish Business Club in Ireland who are attending the end of a live committee session.

I do not want to turn this into a personal vendetta or personal bugbear but it is crucial that the DEIS 3 type model is seriously considered very quickly and taken on board and that any opportunities to discuss or meet are taken. Mr. Loftus mentioned that one cannot meet everyone but a number of people are present today and perhaps over the next five or ten minutes further networking could take place with a view to maximising the knowledge base and skills base built up and targeting the resources as effectively as possible.

Breda Naughton

I apologise for interrupting the Chairman but the integration unit is a member of a committee working on the new DEIS proposals and I promise the Chairman that we are pushing our perspective. However, it is only one perspective and Mr. Mulkerrins has to examine many perspectives. Many aspects must be considered with regard to the resources available. It is not that we are ignoring what the Chairman states.

Chairman

Pertinent points have been made by schools with more than 50% of multi-ethnic pupils, which may have different needs to other types of schools in more settled communities.

I thank all of the witnesses for giving of their time and answering the questions put to them as thoroughly as possible within the restrictions of their positions.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.25 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 5 May 2010.