Joint Committee on Education and Skills díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Nov 2018

Uptake of Apprenticeships and Traineeships: Discussion

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones or switch them to flight mode because they interfere with the sound system and make it difficult for parliamentary reporters to report the meeting. Television coverage and web-streaming can also be adversely affected.

The purpose of this part of the meeting is to have an engagement with a number of stakeholders on the uptake of apprenticeships and traineeships. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Dr. Jim Murray, director of academic affairs and deputy CEO of the Technological Higher Education Association, THEA, Mr. Brendan McGinty, chairperson of Skillnet Ireland, Dr. Mary-Liz Trant, executive director of SOLAS and Mr. Phil O'Flaherty, principal officer, further education and training section of the Department of Education and Skills.

I will invite witnesses to make a brief opening statement, a maximum of three minutes each, which will be followed by engagement with members of the committee.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Any opening statements made to the committee will be published on the committee website after the meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Dr. Jim Murray to make his opening statement.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Before the witnesses begin, I will have to leave for a few minutes at a certain point. The Chairman, Deputy O'Loughlin, is on her way but we will both have to leave to do a press conference. We will be back. I do not mean to show disrespect.

Dr. Jim Murray

On behalf of the Technological Higher Education Association, THEA, and its members, the 14 institutes of technology, I thank the committee for the invitation to its meeting to discuss the uptake of apprenticeships and traineeships.

The technological higher education sector is a strong supporter of apprenticeship and it will remain a key element of its provision into the future. The first technological university, TU Dublin, will be the largest educational facilitator of apprenticeship programmes in the country when it is designated in January 2019. Of THEA's fourteen members, 12 contribute to the provision of the off-the-job elements of some 23 of the designated craft apprenticeships. Of the nine new apprenticeships launched since 2016, seven are led by THEA members, as co-ordinating providers, in areas as diverse as polymer processing technology and insurance practice. In addition, institutes of technology are the proposed co-ordinating providers for a further ten new apprenticeships under development.

Apprenticeship, in the Irish context, is a statutory national programme that enables the apprentice to earn and learn at the same time and is traditionally associated with the construction, electrical, automotive and engineering industries. The great advantage of this approach is that it not only provides the opportunity to the apprentice to learn on the job but also to participate fully as an employee in a real-world work environment. The new apprenticeships aim to extend this approach more broadly into sectors that have not traditionally been associated with apprenticeships. It is a fresh, ambitious and innovative undertaking which THEA believes has the potential to bring about very significant enhancements to the apprenticeship system as a whole and to employment sectors that identify and choose it as the optimal model for educating and training their staff in particular occupations.

THEA views statutory national apprenticeships as one key element in a broad family of education and training programmes that are based on a learn and work model. This model also includes traineeships and non-apprenticeship programmes provided by the further education and higher education sectors that have varying levels of non-paid, work-based learning embedded within them. These include work placements integrated into regular degree programmes and bespoke programmes developed for individual companies. It is important to offer this mixed portfolio of work-based learning to enhance the employability of all graduates and it is equally important that employment sectors give consideration to which model is most suited to their recruitment needs.

Employers are primarily responsible for recruiting apprentices, not the education providers. Employers are best placed to comment on why there have been difficulties in recruiting apprentices in certain sectors. Our members are closer to the recruitment process of the new apprenticeships and their experience to date suggests recruitment tends to be more successful when an employment sector is well organised and has a strong professional association behind it that can determine whether apprenticeship is an appropriate work-based learning model for that sector. A strong professional association also helps to mobilise individual companies in recruiting apprentices and can support that recruitment directly.

There are significant challenges for all stakeholders in increasing the uptake of apprenticeships and, specifically, in meeting the targets enunciated in the 2016 action plan. Arguably, the greatest challenge relates to enhancing awareness of apprenticeship among the populace at large. Although awareness of apprenticeship has increased in recent years at policy level, it is a far greater communications challenge to raise public awareness of apprenticeship as a valid and valued option for school leavers. The magnitude of the task is reflected in the stark fact that the total apprenticeship population at the end of the 2017-2018 academic year was 14,871, while the total enrolments in public higher education were 235,644.

It is also arguable that there is a need to simplify the regulatory environment in which the apprenticeship system operates. It remains subject to the Industrial Training Act 1967, legislation that is 50 years old. While this legislation is sturdy and has stood the test of time, it is not easily reconciled with subsequent education and training legislation, particularly that relating to the national quality assurance system. It has led to a very complex, at times overly bureaucratic system within which to develop the new apprenticeship model. While all the stakeholders have worked collaboratively to make the system work, it has undoubtedly hindered the agility and responsiveness of the system, delaying the throughput of programmes and making it very difficult to predict and deliver registration targets.

As national supporters of the apprenticeship model, THEA's view is that apprenticeship is an integral hub in the overall provision of education and training. Our members are significant providers and supporters of the model. We believe that with streamlined employer support, a focus on simplifying the interpretation of the regulations, a re-visit of the recruitment targets in collaboration with the consortia and other stakeholders and a targeted public awareness campaign, the model can be enhanced to reach its full potential.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

I thank the committee for the opportunity to meet it. The primary focus is on discussing issues of apprenticeships and traineeships which for the most part is about points of entry into a career. Our focus in Skillnet Ireland in working with enterprise is about developing employability skills over the work-life cycle when people have taken up employment.

In that context, human capital is the single greatest asset any nation can possess. Workers, whether they were born in Ireland or attracted from abroad, are the muscle, brainpower, creative force and energy that drives our economy.

In an international context, the IMD’s competitiveness yearbook 2018 ranks Ireland fifth for attracting and retaining talent. The collective talent of our nation is not just the bedrock of our economy today; a well-educated, well-skilled and adaptable workforce has been a core pillar of Ireland’s economic and industrial policy since the 1960s. It is an advantage we must never cede. If we are going to keep that advantage and the promise of opportunity to future generations, we have some work to do.

Our economy is being rapidly reshaped by technology, automation, globalisation, geopolitical shifts, including Brexit, and several other forces. The manifestation of changes being discussed in the debate on the future of work are already with us today and are influencing the way companies operate and how work is organised. This affects job content, skill needs and quality requirements. This transformation is creating opportunity but it is also creating disruption and, with it, insecurity for many businesses and workers. Some of this insecurity can be attributed to two gaps that are preventing our nation from leveraging its talent and our people from realising their full potential. The first is a skills gap. Too many people lack the skills they need to compete for 21st century jobs. The second is a people gap. Too many businesses cannot find the workers with the right skills when and where they need them. Closing both gaps is imperative to our competitiveness.

It is a multifaceted challenge as skills supply is met in various parts through outputs from our higher and further education system, including apprenticeships and traineeships, from employment activation and supports to jobseekers, and from immigration.

However, for the greatest part, the skills that power Ireland’s economy are derived from within employment. For this reason, it is crucial that both businesses and workers are placed at the heart of the response.

Skillnet Ireland is the national agency responsible for the promotion and facilitation of in-employment training. We have deep roots with enterprise in Ireland and we are contracted with more than 50 employer and sectoral groups, regional representative bodies and industry associations. In 2017, approximately 15,000 private firms participated in Skillnet learning networks and more than 50,000 workers were supported by Skillnet-funded training. We are funded from the National Training Fund and as a demand side agency in that we stimulate and support enterprise-led responses through 65 learning networks across a range of sectors and regions. We operate a cost-sharing model where State grants are combined with investments by businesses. As well as offering a subsidy to encourage upskilling, cost-sharing drives firm employer commitment to the training process. In 2017, employers made a total contribution towards training of €15.91 million through Skillnet.

The Skillnet cost-sharing model is also creating significant funding leverage in that every €1 of State investment is matched with €1.14 from employer contributions. This represents a highly efficient use of public moneys and an effective vehicle for State investment in the skills of our workers. For 2019, the annual budget allocation for Skillnet Ireland has been increased to €28 million, equating to approximately 4.5% of total National Training Fund expenditure net of other employer contributions.

Through successive independent evaluations both domestic and international, including the OECD, the European Union and the International Labour Organization, the Skillnet model has consistently been highlighted as an efficient means of addressing skills challenges.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

I ask Mr. McGinty to conclude as he has exceeded his time.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

There are particular recommendations I should mention. The Government should maintain a rigorous focus on the skills of those in employment, directing supports at close to labour market skill requirements in targeting interventions that support effective enterprise-led training and preparing more people to take up employment opportunities. It should implement in full the recommendations arising from the independent evaluation of the National Training Fund undertaken by Indecon, including a greater priority being placed on supporting in-employment training and giving enterprise a bigger voice in how this is determined. The Government should also provide greater incentives to firms to increase investment at enterprise level in staff training. Such responses will serve to increase the productivity, innovation and competitiveness of firms and boost the skills and career mobility of workers and the value of jobs. The final recommendation is to continue to expand demonstrably effective Government and enterprise upskilling mechanisms such as Skillnet Ireland to allow us to accelerate our work and penetration, particularly with small and medium enterprises, which employ approximately 70% of our workforce.

At this moment of rapid change and massive transition, we must put the talent agenda foremost in our minds. That requires us to bridge the gaps that exist between students and workers and the jobs that will provide them opportunity, security and prosperity. It requires us to bridge the skills and people gaps that exist between the needs of employers and workers, where businesses seek to expand their businesses, serve their communities and grow the economy. Skillnet Ireland provides strong leadership in shaping the future of workforce development by working with enterprise to meet their skill requirements and helping those in work to progress, develop and upskill for the future. We are a strong example of how the State and enterprise can work together to meet identified challenges. With our deep roots in every region and sector, we are determined that these issues are addressed, and with the active support of the Government, all our stakeholders and through collaboration between agencies, we are working hard to play our part in addressing these issues.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

There will be an opportunity to engage further with members.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

We appreciate that.

Dr. Mary-Liz Trant

On behalf of SOLAS, I am very pleased to make this statement to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Skills on the uptake of apprenticeships and traineeships. SOLAS funds and oversees further education and training in Ireland, which includes traineeships, and has statutory responsibility for the national apprenticeship system. The organisation has been closely involved in the national policy to expand apprenticeship and traineeship, supporting the Department of Education and Skills and working with education and training boards, higher education institutions, the Higher Education Authority, Quality and Qualifications Ireland, the enterprise community, apprentices and trainees.

Work has been under way since late 2014 on the expansion of apprenticeship in Ireland. It draws on a strong track record, evidence that apprenticeship is an effective way to build the pipeline of talent within industry and a vision of its potential to become a major route to skills development in Ireland. A national Apprenticeship Council appointed by the Minister for Education and Skills is steering the expansion of apprenticeships into new areas of industry and leading to awards from level 5 to level 10 on the national framework of qualifications. SOLAS is represented on the council and acts as the council secretariat.

As of this month, November 2018, the number of national apprenticeship programmes stands at 42, up from 27 in 2016. A further 35 programmes are in development. Apprentice registrations have more than doubled from just under 2,000 in 2013 to more than 4,500 as of the end of October 2018. Registrations on craft apprenticeships are exceeding forecasts and although registrations on the 17 newer programmes have been lower than originally envisaged, registrations are rising as the programmes become more established. The new apprenticeships are developed and overseen by industry-led consortia. During 2018 the Apprenticeship Council began engaging with these consortia to discuss progress, employer support for the new programmes and the ambition regarding targets for each apprenticeship by 2020.

A review of pathways to participation in apprenticeship was completed this year. As the apprenticeship system expands, it is essential that skills development becomes a realistic, valued option for the widest possible cohort of young and older citizens in Ireland. The review sets out five steps to tackle under-representation and exclusion in the apprenticeship system. A national promotional campaign, Generation Apprenticeship, has been under way since May 2017. It is designed to engage and influence employers, parents, teachers and potential apprentices on the opportunities arising from apprenticeship programmes.

The number of traineeships available via education and training boards, ETBs, has increased from 24 in 2016 to 51 as of November 2018. ETBs have been working with employer partners on expansion of traineeship offerings over the past 12 months, in particular since publication by SOLAS, in partnership with ETBs, of the five-step guide to traineeship in Ireland. While the target enrolments for traineeship in 2016 and 2017 were not achieved, enrolments have started to increase in 2018 and there are positive forecasts on traineeship enrolments for 2018 to 2020. The introduction in 2018 of Skills to Advance, a new policy to support upskilling of lower-skilled employees, is also enabling ETBs to adapt traineeship provision so that people at work can access this route to skills development.

We ask the committee to note that overall, apprentice registrations are increasing year-on-year, as are the number of participating employers. There are 17 new apprenticeship programmes available, with 35 more in the pipeline. Apprentice registrations on new programmes are, however, in effect one year behind target. Buy-in by employers to the new and expanded apprenticeship offerings will be a key success factor. Regarding traineeship, enrolment targets have so far not been fully met but as of 2018, the trend in enrolments is upwards and there is a strong pipeline of 51 traineeship programmes now available, with positive forecasting on numbers for 2019 and 2020. Similar to apprenticeship, employer buy-in to traineeships will be a key success factor over the next two years.

Mr. Phil O'Flaherty

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to discuss the important area of apprenticeship and traineeship. The expansion of apprenticeship and traineeship is a key priority for the Government. The programme for Government and the Action Plan for Education contain a commitment to having a cumulative 50,000 enrolments on apprenticeship and traineeship programmes between 2016 and 2020. This represents more than a doubling of activity over the period. Details of how this overall target would be reached through increased enrolments each year were set out in the Action Plan to Expand Apprenticeship and Traineeship 2016-2020, along with information on a range of supporting initiatives.

Apprenticeship and traineeship are an important part of wider efforts to engage employers more closely in the education and training system and to ensure that education and training is meeting current and future skills needs. The programme to expand apprenticeship and traineeship was starting from a difficult position. Apprenticeship suffered enormously during the recession with a fall in registrations of more than 80%.

This closed an important avenue for young people. As well as giving access to valued careers for learners, apprenticeships and traineeships deliver talented and work-ready people for employers. Rebuilding these pathways to rewarding careers and increasing the pipeline of talent for employers have required significant work and new thinking.

It was recognised that apprenticeships and traineeships needed to grow beyond the sectors of the economy that had traditionally engaged with the programmes and that this would need an entirely new approach. Informed by an independent review of the apprenticeship system, the then Minister appointed the Apprenticeship Council in late 2014. The remit of the council was to oversee the development of a range of new apprenticeships, initially through a call for proposals, and examine the issues associated with creating a more flexible and accessible model of apprenticeship that could meet the needs of a diverse range of employers. Alongside this work, the curricula of existing craft apprenticeships were remodelled to keep pace with new methods and technologies in the workplace and ensure apprentices would have the broader range of literacy, numeracy, ICT and team working skills they needed to be successful. Work was also undertaken by SOLAS with the education and training boards to engage with employers to develop a range of new traineeships in growing areas of employment.

Really good progress has been made. There has been strong growth in apprenticeship registrations in recent years. Seventeen new programmes have been developed through two open calls for proposals issued by the Apprenticeship Council and a strong pipeline of further programmes is in development. A completely new model of flexible industry-led apprenticeships has been created, with a diverse range of programmes at levels 5 to 9 of the national framework of qualifications now in place. Craft apprenticeships are growing strongly, with industry re-engaging with apprenticeship recruitment. Nonetheless there are challenges. Apprenticeship programmes have taken longer to get off the ground than originally envisaged and registrations of new apprenticeships are approximately a year behind the targets set in the action plan. Female participation in apprenticeships remains low and the recovery in numbers in craft apprenticeships has not been evenly spread across all trades. Traineeships which in the past were primarily for unemployed persons saw some falls in enrolment as unemployment reduced significantly. However, there are plans in place to address these issues and the Department is confident about the future of these important programmes.

We are in a new phase of development of apprenticeships and traineeships. All of the key building blocks are in place and there is an excellent base of new programmes. The focus is now on employers and learners. Through the Apprenticeship Council and other partners, we are working hard with employers to ensure they will fully exploit the new opportunities to develop the talent in their workforce. It is only through real partnership and employer support that these important pathways into employment for the first time or career advancement can be opened up. The Government is also working to address the visibility of apprenticeship and traineeship opportunities, promote these pathways to women and other under-represented groups and engage with the career guidance community. The generation apprenticeship campaign is in full swing and the campaign has a lot to promote. Only in the past two weeks, we have seen the first graduates from new apprenticeship programmes, hundreds of craft apprentices receiving their qualifications, the publication of a review of pathways to apprenticeship and the launch of a number of a number of new apprenticeship and traineeship programmes. The Government, assisted by additional contributions from employers to the national training fund, has put significant additional resources into this area. An additional €27 million has been allocated in budget 2019, a tangible commitment to the programmes at a time when there are many competing demands for investment in education and training.

I look forward to hearing the contributions of the other bodies involved - I have already heard some of them - and discussing with committee members the progress made and the opportunities and challenges to come.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

I thank Mr. O'Flaherty.

Senator Lynn Ruane

While I am a great supporter of apprenticeships, obviously I have major issues with their class dynamic. When Mr. O'Flaherty referred to under-represented groups, I was wondering whether those who were under-represented in the uptake of apprenticeships were from the middle and upper classes. I work with schools in Dublin and teachers of middle class pupils have come to us to ask how they can make apprenticeships attractive to pupils in their schools. They are struggling to get them on board in considering the idea of taking up an apprenticeship. When I think about apprenticeships, I look at them through the lens of my school days when the only option for the majority of my friends and class mates was an apprenticeship. For me, it is about equality of access. It should be about choosing to take up an apprenticeship, rather than being told that it is the only thing available to the student because of who he or she is and from where they come.

Many of the delegates have mentioned the growth in registrations for apprenticeships. Part of me thinks it is good to have people working, but I view it in terms of social mobility. The evidence is that parents who only have a second level education and who take up an apprenticeship will keep going straight, while their children's social mobility will continue to spiral downwards. It is about being able to fill the gap; apprenticeships are not only about maintaining a certain number of people in a certain sector of employment, they are also about adding to the future progression and social mobility of young people as they become parents themselves and in terms of what their profession will mean for their children.

Since I was at school, there has been a widening of the apprenticeship programmes and sectors involved. Do the delegates have the demographics? Dr. Murray mentioned a figure of 14,871 registrations; SOLAS mentioned a figure of 4,500 by the end of October; while the Department of Education and Skills talks about strong growth, but I would like to nail down the social backgrounds of the parents of the children taking up apprenticeships and the schools from which they are coming. If the uptake of apprenticeships is highly concentrated among pupils from DEIS schools and more working class communities, what can we do to level the playing field in order that it will be more attractive across the board because college is not for everyone? Whether one is from a DEIS school or a really good school, taking up an apprenticeship needs to be a viable option for more pupils other than those in a particular social class. If the figures were available, it would be amazing to gain an understanding in that regard.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

I thank the delegates for their presentations. I recently saw a European league table on which we in Ireland were very much in the bottom half when it came to the scale and diversity of the apprenticeships on offer. If we were to put the scale of the problem in perspective, the figures Dr. Jim Murray outlined are worth repeating. In the 2017-18 academic year the total apprentice population was 14,871. When one compares that figure to the 235,644 student enrolled in the same academic year in higher education, it nails down the scale of the problem in front of us. For years, as Senator Ruane outlined, the sexy option was to proceed to higher education, while the lesser option was to take up an apprenticeship. How do we tackle the statistics in a positive way? A few of the delegates mentioned public awareness. That is the key. We need to do a substantial amount of work to increase public awareness to try to attract people to apprenticeships. I come from County Monaghan. If I was to mention the name Combilift, most people in this room would be familiar with it. If I was to mention the name Martin McVicar, most people would associate it with Combilift. If we were looking for an ambassador for apprenticeships, Mr. McVicar would fit the role very well. He is managing director of a company that exports to more than 100 countries. He took the route of an apprenticeship as opposed to attending third level. If one were looking to find an ambassador for apprenticeships, one could pick up the telephone and call him.

I wonder about the level of consultation with employers. Having listened to the presentations, it seems that, in terms of apprenticeships, the journey is only beginning. It is admirable that we have made a start, but we have so much more to do. There should be more consultation with employers.

The other statistic in figures I saw recently that strikes me is where apparently the level of female participation in apprenticeships in this country is 2% and that in our closest neighbour, the UK, is 50%. Clearly, there is much to be done in that regard as well. What can we do to increase that figure?

We need to incentivise employers to go down that road. We need to incentivise those who are participating and show them a clear picture of what the endgame will look like. Do the witnesses have anything in mind that could incentivise employers to go down this road? For the unemployed who see an apprenticeship, initially at any rate, as leaving them not much better off financially than they would be if they were remain on social welfare, is there anything we can do to incentivise them as well?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

I propose to take one more set of questions from Deputy Funchion, go back to the panel of witnesses and then come back for another group of three.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

First, apologies for being late for the presentations. I have read the opening statements.

I agree with much of what Senators Gallagher and Ruane have said. It seems like there are many great ideas and there is a lot of good work going on to a certain extent, but my difficulty is that I do not think that information is filtering down to those at local level who might have an interest in apprenticeships. It seems to be difficult for such people to get information. For many, their first point of contact will be a local social welfare office, and those I deal with are pointed more in the direction of Turas Nua than towards any other option. Whether it be some sort of training scheme through SOLAS or an apprenticeship, that information does not seem to be forthcoming.

Touching on what Senator Gallagher said about employers, I would know of a number of people who cannot find apprentices. There are a bunch of people who are looking for information on how to get into an apprenticeship and there are many good points being said here today. Somewhere along that spectrum, there is a piece missing or the information is not being funnelled down. I do not know whether any of the witnesses are in a position to answer this, but when people go into their social welfare office, what is this obsession with Turas Nua and funnelling people towards that only? That is where many of the difficulties lie. I know of people who have been offered training schemes with SOLAS who have been told by Turas Nua that it cannot release them for that. This is really stupid carry-on that makes no sense. There needs to be something done to join up all those dots.

For some apprenticeships, such as a barbering apprenticeship to which there is a fee attached, the apprentices themselves must fund it. Is there any option for them? Someone coming from school who has been unemployed for less than a year will not qualify for the back to education allowance. He or she will not qualify for a SUSI grant. Where does such a person get that money? Must such people source it themselves? That can be a deterrent to them. I would like to get some answers to that.

There is an ad hoc approach. It is great if a person meets somebody locally who is good and will give that person the information, but what if that person does not? It depends on where a person is in the country and who he or she meets on a particular day. There does not seem to be any kind of uniformity in getting the information. There was a debate last week on a Private Members' motion on apprenticeships during which the Minister stated that there is some financial incentive for employers to take on apprentices. If there is, that information needs to be disseminated.

Mr. O'Flaherty explained how government is working to address the problems women have in finding pathways to apprenticeships. What practical steps is the Department taking in that regard and is it looking at the issue of quality and affordable childcare, which is always a difficulty? This comes back to different areas in different Departments not talking to each other. To qualify for certain schemes, a person needs to be unemployed for a year or meet other criteria and he or she might qualify for something, but it means the person will not qualify for the affordable childcare. What sort of joined-up thinking or interdepartmental dialogue occurs in that regard? Those are the barriers for many. It is a minefield when a person tries to get the information.

Perhaps Mr. O'Flaherty would be the most appropriate person to answer a question on the funding struggle of community education and the introduction of fees for those trying to get back on their feet, either through back to education or, as somebody I met yesterday said wisely, where this could be their first opportunity because the education system failed them in the first instance. What if they are forced to pay fees? Already, so much community education struggles for funding. They do not like to have to ask the students who are coming to them for fees. I would appreciate the opinions of the witnesses on such matters.

Some good measures were suggested. Much of this came up last week as well. For me, the information does not seem to be funnelling down to those on the ground, whether it be those who have left school early or those who have done the leaving certificate but want to do an apprenticeship rather than go on to higher education. There does not seem to be the same funding stream for the latter. For example, they do not qualify for SUSI grants and yet, financially, they would. It is such issues that we need to look at. It is not practical for many to pay those kinds of fees because while in an apprenticeship, they are on very low wages. It would not be viable for them to pay those fees.

Chairman

I ask witnesses to indicate if they wish to respond to any of the comments or questions posed by members.

Mr. Phil O'Flaherty

I am sure other panel members here will have perspectives on these matters as well.

It is important to note that one of the big achievements of the review of apprenticeships in 2013-14 was to conceive of apprenticeship more as a mode of learning as opposed to a particular skill that operates in a particular sector. For a long number of years, there were no new apprenticeships developed. They were essentially within the construction and engineering sectors, and that goes to some of the issues with recruitment.

The intention in implementing the recommendations of the review was that apprenticeship would offer a much broader range of opportunities for participants, both in terms of educational progression, so that the qualifications they would receive would be a pathway into higher education, and career progression of various types. It was also the intention that it would involve the participation of a wide range of education and training providers so that a person could be an apprentice in a higher education institution. We have a couple of universities, for example, getting involved in apprenticeship. To some extent, the dichotomy between apprenticeship on the one hand and higher education on the other is something we are working to break down.

The broadening out of apprenticeship into new sectors should also offer opportunities to get involved in the apprenticeship system to those who do a range of different subjects in school and have a range of different interests. I have spoken to young apprentices. Female apprentices say of the opportunities for them to go into apprenticeships that, apart from cultural issues and issues with employer attitudes, they went to all-girls schools and it was not only a matter of access to careers information, guidance, etc., but also that, in practical terms, the subjects they could take did not give them access to apprenticeship opportunities.

The social mix around apprenticeship is interesting. In many countries, apprenticeship is something that operates at upper secondary level within schools where a student gets to the equivalent of the junior certificate here and decides to go either the academic or vocational route. In Ireland, it is different. Even in the craft apprenticeships, over 70% of entrants have completed the leaving certificate. It is not a choice that people tend to make midway through their second level schooling. In response to Senator Ruane, I do not have figures.

I think it would be a useful exercise. We have lots of markers around educational achievement before people enter an apprenticeship from which, unfortunately, certain inferences around social background could be made. The broadening out of the range of apprenticeship opportunities is intended to give those who enter apprenticeship a broader range of opportunities to move onwards but also to make apprenticeship available to a much broader range of people. That is not to say that we just deal with an issue such as female participation in apprenticeship by saying we will have apprenticeships in areas that have much higher rates of female employment. There is a job to be done in respect of the craft apprenticeships as well and around young women seeing themselves as having roles in the construction industry, engineering and motor mechanics. The generation apprenticeship campaign tries to push those female role models. I often think that where a female apprentice is in motor mechanics or engineering, the system leans quite heavily on her as a role model to speak about her experience and to give advice and direction to others.

Apprenticeship is complex in terms of growing the numbers. There are no apprenticeships without employers taking people on. There is a two-pronged issue in terms of generating interest for people to enter apprenticeships but also getting employers to engage. Some of the incentive issues for employers are relevant. Different apprenticeships bring about different experiences. Many people are interested in getting involved in some of the newer apprenticeships in particular, but the struggle is to get enough places with employers. There are other apprenticeships where there is a lot of employer interest and less interest from potential apprentices and learners. The situation varies across apprenticeships. Places in higher education must be funded. The number of places can grow with the significant efforts that have been made by higher education institutions, but it is more complex to grow places in apprenticeship because employers must be recruited.

Deputy Funchion made a very good point about the visibility of opportunities. Regrettably, a lot of apprenticeship recruitment is never seen by potential learners. Employers take people on in the same way as they employ people more generally. Some of it happens through word of mouth. Social capital and other such issues become important in that regard in terms of the people who are aware of what is happening.

The pathways to apprenticeship approach proposes a number of ways to deal with that, including having an apprenticeship marketplace where those opportunities are more clearly visible. SOLAS is working on that now. That would also help give the Intreo offices and the social welfare service better visibility of apprenticeship opportunities than is the case at present.

The Department of Education and Skills meets the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection on a range of issues in terms of the participation of people in education and training, those who are unemployed or those who are on a range of other payments, for example, single parents or those with disabilities and various other groups. We advocate strongly for longer-term interventions for apprenticeship that would make real differences in people's lives, but other people who have significant skills and shorter interventions may be more appropriate in that regard.

In terms of apprenticeship and the intersection between it and some of the supports that were mentioned, apprentices are paid and they are employees. I recognise that they are not always paid a lot but they are in a slightly different position than perhaps somebody who comes straight from school who has no income. Apprentices are paid by their employers. Nonetheless, there are very practical issues and there are probably broader issues around the taking up of employment by people in particular situations. Reference was made to childcare. The affordable childcare scheme is intended to enable women with caring responsibilities who want to become involved in the labour market to be supported into employment, and one of the types of employment we are talking about is apprenticeship.

Community education is an important means of bringing people into all sorts of education and training opportunities, through full-time programmes and certified learning into full-time further education and training programmes, and onwards into higher education and apprenticeship. I am more than willing to engage separately on the issue but, typically, people on community education would not be in a position where they would need to pay fees. However, I am more than happy to engage with Deputy Funchion on the issue. There is sometimes an issue around the providers themselves who raise the cost of accessing certification given the fees that are involved in them registering with Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, for example.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Catherine Martin)

I thank Mr. O'Flaherty. He can send any additional information to the other witnesses through the committee.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

A number of the issues that have been raised to my mind amount to asking where the opportunities are to make further progress. I do not think that can be answered without getting into some of the granularity because there are different issues in different sectors and different regions. I will raise it up one level to say the following, namely, that we really must get on top of the challenge that lies immediately ahead. As I said in my opening statement, the future of jobs agenda is not an issue for the future, it is for today. Thankfully, we are heading for full employment. We know that we are only going to be able to add somewhere between 15,000 and 20,000 at working age in terms of the population. That means employers will be under a lot of pressure to find new skills and talent. We can do what we can around net immigration, and that is happening already, but the real issue is how we improve the productivity of the economy to contribute to economic growth and to sustain jobs and lifestyle for people. A key instrument of that is boosting the skill set we have in the working population.

Below that, we are seeing a lot of innovation happening. One of the things to which we in Skillnet Ireland are very committed is working with enterprise. A key question was asked about how we get enterprise engaged. One of the key issues is working with it very strongly on workforce planning, development and bringing innovation to help people solve some of those talent problems and creating opportunities for workers to develop.

Senator Gallagher asked about female participation. I will give one very simple example. In the ICT sector, companies are crying out for skilled people to come and work in them. The level of female participation has been an issue, with women, understandably, stepping out of their career, for example, to raise a family for a few years or to do other things. For example, through Technology Ireland a programme has been put in place called Women ReBOOT, which is about reconnecting with women who were working in the sector, had taken time out and, because of the pace of change in the sector, had lost touch with what was happening in terms of skills.

We now have 20 of the largest technology companies in Ireland participating in the programme, which is getting women back into the sector and re-equipping and reskilling them and building their confidence. This has been a great success. That is granular and only one small example but it is the kind of thing that has to be done to build these sorts of responses.

Senator Gallagher asked a question about incentivisation. There is an issue with regard to how we get enterprise more involved. This is a major challenge for small and medium enterprises, SMEs, on which we are primarily focused. The reason that is important at a macro level is that we recognise there is a major productivity deficit challenge, which is being masked by what is happening in the multinational sector. At a superficial level, our productivity numbers are looking pretty good. If we strip out the performance of the multinational sector, however, what we see is that productivity is relatively low, particularly in the SME sector. The issue tends to arise in harder to reach areas such as parts of the construction sector, domestic services, hospitality, etc. These sectors require a greater level of incentivisation to increase the commitment of employers to the types of tasks we are discussing in respect of participation in workforce training. That extends across all levels. This is about saying that we need a number of key things to happen at the same time, in particular lifelong learning must be incentivised and sold to companies. Generally speaking, levels of participation currently stand at approximately 8.5%. The policy commitment is to double that figure to about 15%. While that commitment is welcome, we need to accelerate the process.

At all levels of the education and training system, we need to inculcate a culture of agile learning on the part of workers. The systems we bring, including policy delivery and service support, have to be about preparing for the repurposing of skills and training. I ask the committee to remember, as the World Economic Forum has pointed out, that by 2022, which is only a short number of years away, 54% of all workers will need some level of reskilling or upskilling. That is one hell of a challenge and we need to be ahead of that in the competition for inward investment and to ensure job sustainability and in sustaining our regions. The regions are where many of our SMEs are located and they are sustaining jobs outside of the major urban centres. We have a significant role to play in that regard owing to our strong reach into every region and every sector. However, we have more to do.

Deputy Fiona O'Loughlin took the Chair.

Dr. Jim Murray

I would like to touch on one of the issues Senators Ruane and Kelleher both raised in different ways. One way of referring to it is the "Cinderella" status of apprenticeships. This is not an easy issue to address. The status of an education and training programme and how it is perceived socially is deeply embedded within the psyche. It is a real cultural challenge that we have to take on and we should approach it in two ways. First, we have to neutralise the term "apprenticeship". Mr. O'Flaherty touched on this to a degree. Apprenticeship has to be perceived more as a mode of provision, rather than as something that has a whole set of social values attached to it, notwithstanding whether they are right or wrong. Second, we need to mainstream apprenticeships as a mode of provision. That means they need to be much more visible within what I will describe, for want of a better term, as the regular system. That is particularly the case in higher education. The new apprenticeships have begun that task by putting apprenticeship right in at the heart of higher education. This is a small beginning but degree programmes are now available which are in the apprenticeship mode of provision. We have to keep working on that and make apprenticeships much more visible. Over time, an attitudinal change will hopefully occur. It is, however, a substantial challenge. As Senator Gallagher mentioned, the numbers are stark. There are reasons for that but with the new apprenticeships, we have opened up the discussion in a way that has never been done previously. We have to sustain this discussion in the long term to make that change.

Dr. Mary-Liz Trant

I will make up a couple of points on the contributions thus far. We talked about employers and the role of employers comes through very clearly. The Apprenticeship Council has been engaging with employers involved in the new apprenticeships to discuss how things are going and the roll-out. One of the issues that has emerged is that in apprenticeship programmes where a large number of employers went through the apprenticeship route, these employers are great champions of the programmes. Mr. Martin McVicar was mentioned as an example. He went through the apprenticeship route, understands it and is very committed to it as a way of learning and also of having a pipeline of talent.

In the newer apprenticeships in finance and even in the area of ICT, many employers have never engaged with an apprenticeship before. We are doing a major piece of work to engage employers and get their buy-in because it is very influential. The voices and experiences of the apprentices are the other issue. The first graduates have come through from these new apprenticeship programmes and we will have more next year. That social spread of people who are buying into and want apprenticeship opportunities is starting to shift but there is much more to do. Part of the generation apprenticeship campaign is about changing that narrative. At the heart of the messaging is that apprenticeship is a mode of learning and a choice. We have to promote that.

To return briefly to Senator Ruane's point, through the pathways review, we gathered as much information as we could on the social background and profile of apprentices. We know that 85% are men under 25 years, 2.8% declared a disability and just 2% are women. Interestingly, one of the new apprenticeships has more women than men but the majority of the traditional apprenticeships have a tiny number of women and, in some cases, none. We have some of that information but in the pathways review we commit to getting more information in that area and to building that picture and understanding. That is really important.

Deputy Funchion raised a point about apprenticeships in barbering and hairdressing. We have an apprenticeship in development in that area. It is planned to roll that out next year and it will include hairdressing and barbering. We know the industry is really enthused and excited about this and view it as a structured way of getting opportunities for people who want to get into the industry. It is also a way apprentices to earn and learn as they go through the programme.

To address a point Mr. O'Flaherty raised regarding the overall picture of awareness, we are working on what we are calling a jobs market where employers will be able to advertise vacancies. It will be available on www.apprenticeship.ie. The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, schools, guidance counsellors and employers will be able to provide this level of visibility of apprenticeship opportunities. Where employers are finding it difficult to find apprentices or apprentices are not hearing about opportunities, we will be able to improve that. We are working on that now and we hope to pilot it by the end of the year with a number of employers and then roll it out in 2019. We believe it will be significant as part of that awareness-raising work.

Chairman

It is good to see that some more women are getting involved. The committee was concerned by the statistics from last year showing that only 2% of apprenticeships were taken up by women. We certainly hope this positive change will continue. I thank Deputy Catherine Martin for standing in for me while I was on other Dáil business. I appreciate it.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I thank the witnesses for the presentations. I note that Waterford and Wexford Education and Training Board, WWETB, is developing a nearly zero energy building, NZEB, centre of excellence and Limerick Institute of Technology is working with it to develop the training content for the programme. This will upskill electricians, plumbers, blocklayers and others. It is terrible that WWETB has to fight for money despite the work that it is doing. This is the wave of the future and funding will be necessary if we are to address fuel poverty and improve our energy security.

While SOLAS has started new apprenticeships in auctioneering and property services, what actions is it taking to create them in services that improve the quality of the houses being auctioned, rented or sold? Building standards are still under-regulated and inspected, although there is self-certification, while there is a severe lack of trained professionals to do the work required. I know that many of the people who work in the areas of renovation, retrofitting and energy efficiency - the new green areas of the economy - have not been trained in Ireland and must travel elsewhere to acquire that expertise. What is SOLAS doing at regional level to upskill in and support the retrofit sector? What is its policy in that area? Has it started to build on the pioneering work of Waterford and Wexford ETB in the area of retrofitting, especially considering the requirement to meet current and incoming EU energy efficiency and NZ targets? I note that the action plan to expand apprenticeship and traineeship in Ireland 2016 to 2020 includes a target to have 67 apprenticeship programmes in place by the end of 2020 in new industry areas. There is a clear upward trend, but are we preparing the apprentices for the reality of our changing economy and where we need to go? Regarding the €120 million allocated for apprenticeships in 2018 and the €34.6 million allocated for traineeships to 2020, what is the breakdown in terms of how much has been invested in climate mitigation or adaptation measures, including energy efficiency measures, as compared to the level of investment in fossil fuel employment? I believe there is talk of the European Social Fund which funds the new apprenticeship and traineeship fund being used to upskill fossil fuel workers in Germany and the Czech Republic. Has the Department approached anyone at EU level or prepared any draft plan for the midlands to avail of such funding opportunities?

I am glad to see moves in the right direction towards gender balance, but SOLAS's submission does state the proportion of apprentices who are women is still 1%. I am glad to hear that there is a move to encourage them to move beyond certain areas such as beauty therapy and hairdressing which quite clearly are saturated markets that are vulnerable to cyclical dips in the economy. Care work is also an industry in which there are very poor pay levels and conditions. Is there, for example, an Athena SWAN award equivalent for institutions and businesses in this area? In addition, what departmental actions are being taken in the light of the fact that just 2.75% of apprentices declare a disability? Furthermore, is there an apprenticeship expo? Could this become a compulsory part of the transition year school programme?

Senator Maria Byrne

As I had to go the Seanad Chamber to attend to quorum duties, I apologise if I ask any question that has been asked already.

I thank the four delegates for their very informative presentations. To follow up on what Deputy Catherine Martin said about an apprenticeship expo, I know that in the mid-west there was recently an apprenticeship day. Free buses were provided which collected students from schools and brought them to the expo. It was a really successful day. Parents turned up with students to find out about the various apprenticeships on offer, which was good. I educated myself about some of the apprenticeships that I did not even realise were available. For example, I did not realise there were apprenticeships in the area of refrigeration and so on. I would not have thought about it before. It is welcome that apprenticeships are growing because I am a big fan of them, especially given that third level education is not for everyone. Many apprenticeships have been awarded. I am aware of QQI, but some of the apprenticeships are being tied with the institutes of technology and the universities such that apprentices can be awarded, say, a certificate, a diploma or a degree. Are they all being accredited or is it just some of them? Given the fact that the expo was such a success, will it be repeated in other areas? It was the second or third year it was run in the mid-west. I pay tribute to Mr. Joe Leddin, the regional skills manager, who put the project together. It was great to bring employers and apprentices together.

This ties in with a question that was asked earlier. Is there a lot of collaboration between employers and apprentices? I spoke to some hairdressers recently. They take on many apprentices and must pay the various fees, but they receive no incentive or tax relief or anything else. Could this be considered? Could employers be incentivised to take on apprentices in such a way that they would receive something at the other end for investing in the employee of the future? Some employers take on many employees or apprentices and train them. It is important that a balance be struck in that regard.

I think the delegates mentioned 35 other programmes in development. Could we be given a broad outline of what else has been proposed?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I welcome all of the delegates. I apologise for being late. I had a conflicting meeting to attend.

I am delighted to see so much progress being made in developing the new apprenticeships, in particular. I worked with some of the delegates in the establishment of the Apprenticeship Council. It is most welcome that, I think, 67 apprenticeships are due to be created by 2020. Really good work has been done. The challenge now is to get the message out as broadly as possible because we need employers and apprentices to fish the opportunities that are available.

I join Senator Byrne in congratulating the regional skills organiser in Limerick, Mr. Joe Leddin, on organising the apprenticeship forum. I think he is one of eight regional skills organisers throughout the country. The forum is a model that should be followed in other places. The delegates might let me know whether that is the plan.

I will focus mainly on getting the message out. Someone mentioned the Generation Apprenticeship campaign. I would like to receive an update on how widespread is the campaign. Social media are crucial in getting young people interested. Is there a need for a reinvigoration of the presence on social media to ensure young people know about the campaign? I refer also to the local media, particularly in the case of parents.

I do not know whether anyone can do anything about the way in which league tables are published in newspapers, but the inclusion of apprenticeships, as well as higher education options, would make a difference in terms of perception. I find it disgusting to read that such and such a school is the best in the country because 100% of its pupils go on to attend higher education when there are other, equally valid, opportunities that reflect the excellence of schools and which are completely brushed under the carpet. Perhaps it might be worth contacting the media, specifically the newspapers that publish the league tables, to say apprenticeships should be included. I do not know what the views of the delegates are or whether they would have a role in doing this. Perhaps we might as a committee and it is something we could do.

The next issue I wish to raise follows on what members, particularly Deputy Catherine Martin, said about green building, the European Social Fund and the midlands. The Youth Guarantee is another European concept that should capture young people who end up going to the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection instead of the people about whom Deputy Funchion talked who should really be guided towards the opportunities which are meant to be covered under the Youth Guarantee scheme.

Regarding the midlands, I was struck by the reference to the displacement of peat and so on. I think Mr. O'Flaherty might have some knowledge of the globalisation fund. Is funding available to direct people who may have been involved in the use of fossil fuels, etc., towards alternative opportunities?

Chairman

I have a few questions to ask. I apologise that I did not get to hear all of the presentations, but I will have an opportunity to look back at the transcript. I also had the opportunity to read the submissions made prior to the meeting.

I will have the opportunity to look back at the transcript, and I read the submissions prior to the meeting. The witnesses mentioned that the 1967 legislation is now over 50 years old. Is it necessary to examine the legislation and consolidate the Acts to make the process more efficient? The committee could look at that.

Engagement with career guidance teachers is very important. Are there sufficient numbers of career guidance teachers to enable such engagement? It would appear that apprenticeships suffer from a lack of parity of esteem, which is an issue we have to address for our younger people who are getting ready to leave school. The career guidance teacher has a big role to play on that.

Will the witnesses provide more information about the promotion of traineeships, as opposed to apprenticeships? That is another important area.

The Government has proposed increasing the National Training Fund between now and 2020. The witnesses are liaising with industry. Is industry supportive of that proposal?

On the issue of women taking up apprenticeships, women tend to avail of flexible working arrangements. Are there training courses that are offered on those terms?

In its submission, the Department stated that traineeships in the past were associated primarily with unemployed people, but as unemployment levels have dropped this has obviously impacted on uptake. Has this resulted in a drive towards attracting second level students to traineeships? Are different courses available to people in their late 40s or early 50s who are unemployed, including those who have taken redundancy? I am thinking of the employees of Bord na Móna. We must be able to attract these people to different types of classes to ensure they remain employable. They are only halfway through their working lives.

Do the witnesses believe that some form of positive discrimination could be applied to apprenticeships and traineeships to encourage a greater uptake? By that I mean possible tax breaks for employers or employees, perhaps by allowing people who have been on benefits to retain a medical card. Would that help?

Mr. Phil O'Flaherty

I thank the members of the committee for their contributions. They have provided us with plenty of food for thought. SOLAS might comment on the promotion agenda and the expos we have engaged in. A major event will occur in the spring of next year. Members may have heard of WorldSkills, which is akin to the skills olympics. The national version of that event, which will determine the participants at the WorldSkills event, is being brought together with a major expo in the RDS in March so as to anchor the work we have done on apprenticeships and promote excellence. There is more to be said about promotion, but I will leave it to Dr. Trant to provide more details.

The idea of using the European Social Fund, ESF, is interesting. Without being too technical in the short time available, the total amount of ESF funding is determined at the outset of the programming period at EU level and is set for the various member states. This essentially makes it part of overall budgetary planning. It is not that additional resources can be acquired from the EU for specific things. It must all come from the overall ESF budget. The question of what is included within our operational programmes is important, and further education and training is a major part of ESF supported opportunities. As Deputy Jan O'Sullivan said, there are opportunities for specific additional interventions through the European Globalisation Adjustment Fund, EGF. I do not know if it is being deployed in the case of the Bord na Móna workers or for the decarbonisation agenda more generally or what impact it has on the economy, but I will certainly check with colleagues as to whether that is a part of it. People are aware of various major interventions facilitated by the EGF, and it is not always for one particular company. For example, it was used during the downturn in the construction industry on a broader basis, but I will check the position on that and come back to the committee with the information it requires.

The question of new building techniques and retrofitting was raised. The content of apprenticeship programmes is being changed at the moment. Members will be aware of the 27 craft apprenticeships. The curricula of those apprenticeships have been reviewed to look at new building techniques and regulations and how they impact on the various trades. A fairly significant part of those updated curricula involves ensuring that those different types of techniques are included. There are also a range of non-apprenticeship programmes which provide education and training in the areas of retrofitting. I do not have details of how much of the overall further education and training budget is going towards those programmes, but they exist and we can provide additional information on that. I am aware of the specific provision that is being put together in that area by the Waterford and Wexford Education and Training Board, WWETB. Hopefully that will provide an example for other parts of the country.

Perhaps this goes to Deputy Funchion's point about barbering earlier, but in terms of incentives, there are some things that in the common parlance are called apprenticeships but which are not necessarily statutory apprenticeships. The flow of State funding and resourcing for those sorts of programmes is not the same. We have people who are being called apprentice bar persons or apprentice barbers, but they are not State funded and they do not form part of the statutory programme. As Dr. Trant said, barbering and hairdressing are coming into the fold through a specific proposal and a programme is being developed, but where programmes are not on a statutory basis, not only do they not receive the same State supports, but the employees are not getting the same levels of protection available to apprentices under the statutory system. That may have something to do with the difficulty people have in engaging with some of those programmes.

On league tables, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan will be aware that this is a very contentious issue. League tables are not supplied by the Department but are collated by media organisations through information supplied by the CAO and other sources.

However, I am aware that SOLAS has made a conscious effort broadly in further education and training but also in the specific area of how apprenticeship features as a mark of success.

Going back to Dr. Jim Murray's point, there is a danger that high levels of conversion into apprenticeships, because of some public perceptions, are not necessarily seen as a positive development. While I do not agree with it, it all plays into the picture. We are looking at some positive discrimination. The review of pathways to apprenticeship discusses this point. There is a bursary for recruiting female apprentices in the craft sectors. We are looking to extend this into other sectors. We need to engage with some of our other Government colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to get agreement around that. We are looking to extend that into new areas as well as to people with disabilities.

On the 1967 legislation and the statutory framework for apprenticeship as a whole, we are gathering information from employers about their experiences of engaging with apprenticeship programmes. We will consider areas and specific issues which may need some attention from a statutory perspective. There is not a formal proposal at this stage to change the legislative framework and it is a complex area. Some may argue the system is bureaucratic. However, this offers protection to apprentices in terms of the quality of the education and training they receive. It is important that agenda is fully protected.

On industry and the increase in the national training fund, obviously there was a formal consultation process around that. Employers said they are in a time of uncertainty, such as Brexit and various other issues, and they do not need additional costs regarding employment. We have walked a journey with employers around this. There was a review of the national training fund which came up with 14 recommendations around greater employer say in the allocation of funding and what the priorities should be. An implementation plan for those was published alongside budget 2019. An advisory group will be set up involving employers as well. There is recognition that greater funding is coming from employers, and with that comes some obligations around influence.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

On the issue of promotion, I accept the point made by Deputy Jan O'Sullivan about the importance of connecting locally. In our experience in Skillnet Ireland, the capacity to engage locally through social media and all the various other channels such as local media is important. Again, we have had some valuable experience around what works and does not. I would be happy to share that with the committee.

Women being offered flexibility of options in training is important. To be fair, our experience is that employers are much more sensitive to that, not least because they have a challenge trying to attract people into their businesses. Obviously, people are testing employers to see the career mobility options available. Part of that is how the training approach is done. There is a much greater willingness to look at more flexible, modular, part-time evening programmes of one form or another. Back in the day, parts of retailing might have been described as just a job in a shop. It is not just a job in the shop and employers have grasped that issue. Through the work done with ourselves, there is now an active presentation of a full career in retailing, whereby people, predominantly women, are having prior learning recognised. We are working with the qualification bodies to ensure, in a systematic way, that people who may not have a leaving certificate but have worked in a retail environment for five or ten years can have that experience recognised as a stepping stone towards career progression. People can have their skill sets properly recognised and certified up to allowing for career progression whereby they can now have a degree in retail management practice at level 7 in the qualifications framework. That is significantly powerful and impactful. From a business perspective, it is important because it is attracting somebody into the sector, giving them an opportunity to see ahead and retaining them within the sector.

What is happening to the cohort of people in their 40s and 50s? That is an important issue. We have had that experience when the construction sector collapsed and the challenges presented in terms of cross-skilling and getting people retrained in new sectors such as green energy and sustainability. Even around the unfortunate experience of closures, we have been heavily involved in supporting workers who have been impacted by closures such as Coty in Tipperary, Hewlett-Packard in Kildare, TalkTalk in Waterford, Cameron in Longford and so on. One has to have a response to cater for those particular requirements. That has worked but it is about tailoring the response, the agility of the response and working collaboratively with other agencies. We have been able to bring that very much to the focus of the task in hand.

Dr. Jim Murray

Senator Byrne had a query around accreditation of apprenticeships in the higher education institutions. There are statutory quality assurance guidelines to which all providers of apprenticeships have to adhere. They then would be operated through the awarding bodies and the higher education institutions for apprenticeships at levels 6 to 10. They would be the accrediting bodies in those instances but operating under national guidelines.

In terms of legislation, the issue is around the policies and processes that flow out of multiple sets of legislation. That is where work among the agencies and providers can, over time, work on streamlining those processes. It is necessary because it helps to break the logjam in terms of the throughput of programmes coming through the system.

Deputy Catherine Martin had an interesting idea about having the Athena SWAN Charter for apprenticeships. We may be able to look at that in due course.

On the gender issue and access more broadly, as well as the system level activities, which Mr. Phil O'Flaherty and Dr. Mary-Liz Trant have articulated, there are also institutional on the ground efforts. I know DIT has a new programme called access to apprenticeship. It is run in three cycles over 12 weeks. It would bring in many young kids from socially and economically deprived areas to sample the different types of apprenticeship. That is the successful way of bringing people into the system. DIT has also had an open day specifically targeted towards women. There are many local initiatives complementing the central efforts.

Dr. Mary-Liz Trant

The local and regional element of all of what we are doing is important. We have 16 education and training boards, 14 institutes of technology, as well as more universities, and all of the employers. A big part of the generation apprenticeship competition has been about co-opting everybody in that.

We have that local and regional reach.

Senator Byrne asked about what was happening in the mid-west. We now have these structures in place throughout he country which are very powerful and effective and making a very big contribution. The apprenticeship.ie website which receives approximately 25,000 visitors per month plays a big role in supporting, facilitating and generating apprenticeships. We are working to make it a one-stop shop, with a profile and a link with the jobs market. We are expanding our significant social media presence and have profiles on LinkedIn, Twitter and Facebook. We are examining how to reach men in their mid 20s, school leavers and transition year students, while not forgetting the role played by employers.

Members may be aware that the ESB recently received an award as part of European Vocational Skills Week for its work on apprenticeships and in attracting women into electrical apprenticeships, which traditionally were predominantly filled by men. It has done a significant amount of work in promoting opportunities and now has approximately 16 female apprentices, whereas two or three years ago there were only one or two. It is showing the way in terms of what can be done by an employer.

The Chairman asked how we were promoting traineeships. We are working closely with education and training boards across the country in that regard and have a very exciting pipeline of 51 traineeships on offer. We provide national support in branding, availing of opportunities to organise workshops, engaging with employers and working with the regional skills forums hand in hand with the education and training boards and their connections with employers.

Senator Byrne asked what was in the pipeline. The detailed list is available and includes apprenticeships in sales, retail, ICT, farming, horiticulture and engineering. Four chef apprenticeships will be available by the middle of next year, doubling our current offering. There will be apprenticeships in supply chain logistics, which is of great importance in the context of Brexit. There is a wide range of offerings. Part of what the council is doing is looking at how to ensure our apprenticeship offering is responsive in what we have and what we will need.

Deputy Catherine Martin asked what was being done on the issue of climate change. We are working closely with the Construction Industry Federation and other partners on an ongoing basis to ensure the existing apprenticeship courses have the content required to ensure we are responding to these imperatives and regulations and so on, to identify new areas in which apprenticeships are needed or need to be adapted and to ensure we can do so. The council is piloting an engagement with employers and other bodies to ensure it has its finger on the pulse in that regard.

The Chairman asked about life-long learning and opportunities for employees, including those at risk of losing their jobs. Apprenticeship is increasingly an opportunity for people in employment. Up to half of those in the first intake in insurance and engineering apprenticeships were employees who might have been working for five or ten years, did not have a formal qualification and were being facilitated by their employer to undertake the apprenticeship and potentially take up more senior positions in their company. Obviously, apprenticeship is increasingly a very important route for young people, but it is also for learners of all ages and backgrounds, as evidenced by the surge in new apprenticeships, of which it is to be hoped we will see more as time passes.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I asked for a breakdown to see how much of the €120 million allocated for apprenticeships and the €34.6 million allocated for traineeships in 2018 has been invested in climate mitigation or adaptation measures to achieve energy efficiency. What is the exact policy on the retrofit sector? I refer to the work done by Waterford Wexford ETB in that regard. Is it something that will be addressed many years into the future? That is not where we need to be; rather, we need to deal with it in the here and now. Is there a timeframe for building on the pioneering work done by Waterford Wexford ETB? What is the plan and when will it be implemented? The Irish Green Building Council stated people were not being trained in Ireland in retrofitting, which is appalling. It is the new green economy. Many employees, particularly in the midlands, will need to be retrained and upskilled. What is the plan in that regard?

Dr. Mary-Liz Trant

We do not have a specific breakdown of where the allocations are being spent in that regard. However, dimensions of the construction apprenticeship curriculums now include those elements and one could look to what is being allocated for those apprenticeships. However, we will examine the matter further to see what further information can be provided.

We are very supportive of the work of Waterford Wexford ETB and that previously carried out by Limerick Institute of Technology. I do not have immediate information on the overall plan, but we can revert to the committee with further information on it.

Chairman

The committee is always open to receiving further information. Mr. O'Flaherty referred to the apprenticeship skills event in March, which is a super idea. The committee would like to visit it and I ask Mr. O'Flaherty to let us know, if possible. The committee was very impressed by the apprentices who represented Ireland at WorldSkills.

I could not agree more on the importance of retail apprenticeships. It is very important to show that there is a pathway through the retail sector. Two of the most recent entrants into the grocery market provide very good pathway and graduate programmes which contribute to attracting people to the area.

It has been a very interesting and engaging discussion. We will resume our examination of the issue next Tuesday, 20 November, when representatives of four other groups will appear before the committee. We very much appreciate the time and engagement of the delegates. If they wish to submit anything else to the committee before we complete our report, they should do so.

Sitting suspended at 12.15 p.m. and resumed at 12.20 p.m.