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Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Jun 2015

Citizens Information Board: Chairperson Designate

We are considering the appointment of the chair of the Citizens Information Board, CIB. I wish to draw Ms Mangan's attention to the fact that, by virtue of 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if Ms Mangan is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and she continues to do so, she is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of her evidence. Ms Mangan is directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and is asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, she should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statement submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Mobile telephones must be switched off completely or switched to aeroplane, safe or flight mode, as they could otherwise interfere with the broadcasting services.

We are considering the Government's appointment of the new chair of the CIB. The Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection has announced that she proposes to appoint Ms Ita Mangan as chairperson for a period of five years. Today, the committee has an opportunity to engage with Ms Mangan regarding her appointment. I welcome her and invite her to make her presentation.

Ms Ita Mangan

I thank the committee for asking me to appear before it today regarding my proposed appointment as chair of the CIB. As the committee already has my statement in full, I will probably not read all of it, as I assume that members can read. However, I will refer to its more important aspects.

I am honoured to be asked to chair the board. It is an organisation with which I have had a long association. I will tell members a little bit about my background before discussing the issues that I believe are upcoming for the board. I was born and reared in a farming family in County Sligo, where I went through primary and secondary education. I have a degree in economics and history from UCD and I qualified as a barrister in the King's Inns. I have been fortunate to have had a varied career, which has included working for a wide range of organisations like the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the European Commission office in Ireland, the Law Reform Commission, the National Council on Ageing and Older People, NCAOP, the Human Rights Commission and a number of referendum commissions. I have had a long association with the CIB and its predecessors in title. I have written its monthly information magazine, Relate, for many years and have also written a number of its other publications and numerous items on its information databases. In recent years, I have been a member of two commissions of investigation and have heard appeals in the residential institutions redress scheme. I have also been involved in various public policy issues and was recently the chair of the advisory committee on tax and social welfare, in which capacity I appeared before this committee, as some members may recall.

However, I am not the important aspect. The CIB is, and members know what it does. It is the statutory body that supports the provision of information, advice, including money and budgeting advice, and advocacy services. It provides some of its services directly through information websites, etc., but it also provides money to a number of organisations, which is one of the issues I wish to address briefly.

A significant element of the board's services are delivered by a large number of small organisations, for example, citizens information services and the Money Advice & Budgeting Service, MABS. The citizens information services are staffed by more than 1,100 volunteers in addition to paid staff. As members are aware, the relationship between State bodies and the voluntary organisations that they fund has come under scrutiny in recent years. We all recognise the significant contribution that the voluntary sector can make, as it is particularly knowledgeable on the needs of local communities and is frequently more flexible in its responses than State organisations. At the same time, though, everyone wants to see good value for money. This puts pressure on small voluntary organisations. Some of them believe that the pressure on them is unduly burdensome, but it is important that all recipients of public funds be able to show that they are using them effectively.

It is also important that services delivered through the voluntary sector are of the highest quality. The voluntary organisations funded by the CIB recognise the need to ensure high-quality services, but they are operating in an increasingly complex environment and sometimes the size of the organisation does not allow it to deliver the quality of service that is required. The CIB has been involved in trying to get more effective governance arrangements in place to facilitate better service delivery. This work will continue, as ensuring the happy continuance of the voluntary sector while providing high-quality services and good value for money will pose one of the major issues for the organisation in the coming years.

Since I have set out the functions of the CIB in my submission, I will not go through them all, but I will discuss the issues arising from them. The CIB was first established in the 1970s under a different name, the National Social Service Council, to set up community information centres. Information remains a core activity for the board. Accurate, independent, integrated and clearly written information is important for everyone. The means of transmitting information has changed dramatically in recent times and the rules governing entitlements to various schemes and services have become more complex. As members will be aware, there has been a significant increase in the quantity of legislation in the past 30 years, certainly since the 1960s and 1970s, and distilling all of that and making it meaningful for people so that they can properly exercise their rights and entitlements is a major operation that is becoming more complex. However, it is an essential one and not just so that citizens can make best use of the available services, but so that they can be fully active participants in society.

As the economy improves, it is important that they have the right information to make the best choices for them in any given set of circumstances.

In the presentation, I give the statistics on those dealing with our services. There were 16 million hits on the citizensinformation.ie website in 2014. It is important that the website be kept up-to-date and remain user-friendly.

The second issue I want to address is the Money Advice & Budgeting Service, MABS, with which the committee will be familiar. MABS is in 53 locations throughout the country and it provides a service on both secured and unsecured debts. The MABS service tries to address the entirety of clients' financial circumstances and deal with all the issues, including the social ones, that arise in order that they are in a position to return to financial health and be active participants in society. In recent times, this has proved to be a major challenge.

As the committee will no doubt be aware, the Government has recently agreed a number of new measures to support mortgage holders who are in arrears, including a greater role for MABS. Additional services to provide assistance in identifying the best options, completing financial statements and considering proposed solutions are to be introduced by MABS offices on a phased basis. This will ensure that borrowers have access to information on the range of supports and options available, advice on the ones most suited to their needs, and assistance, where necessary, in pursuing such options. In my presentation, I state that the development of this new service will require extra funding. I am pleased to report that the extra funding was allocated yesterday. The roll-out of that service will start immediately. A project manager will be appointed shortly. It is hoped that by the end of July the service will be running in a number of parts of the country.

We also must bear in mind that many users of MABS services need the service, not because they have mortgage payment problems but because of other indebtedness. MABS was originally established to address the problems caused by moneylenders charging excessive rates of interest. It is rather surprising to discover that there are still 360,000 customers of moneylenders in Ireland. This points to the absence of a more appropriate source of credit, such as micro-loans, for those who need small borrowings. Recent changes in credit union regulation and amalgamation aimed at curbing reckless lending of high-value loans mean that credit unions are not providing the sort of small loans service they were originally set up to provide and that are needed by those we are talking about. The Citizens Information Board supports the micro-loan concept and is in discussions with the Departments of Social Protection and Finance on the establishment of a micro-loan scheme for citizens who have difficulty accessing credit. Such people need credit, for example, when a domestic appliance, such as a cooker or washing machine, breaks down. They can afford to repay. They may not be able to afford to repay the moneylender because of the excessive rates of interests. There is no way they have the sum required, perhaps €300 or €400, to buy the appliance in the first place, but if they can get a micro-loan at a reasonable rate of interest, they will be able to repay it. It is important to recognise they can repay it. We are not suggesting making loans to those who not able to repay.

Another area in which the Citizens Information Board is involved is advocacy services. The board provides advocacy services to a small number of those with disabilities. As I said, the service is small at present and clearly does not reach the number who need such a service. The Citizens Information Act 2007 provides for the establishment of a statutory personal advocacy service, the relevant provisions of which have not been implemented. There is a need for statutory arrangements, but the statutory arrangements contained in that Act probably are not the most appropriate for the current environment because advocacy services are needed in the context of the new assisted decision-making legislation and also to a significant degree in the context of patients' rights in the health services. There is a need for a co-ordinated approach to advocacy services that would cover those with disabilities, those with assisted decision-making problems and patients within the health services who need help in establishing their rights. Such a co-ordinated approach would require new legislation. That is one of the areas that the Citizens Information Board, together with relevant Departments, will examine in the near future.

The final area I want mention is the social policy remit of the Citizens Information Board. Through its information services, the CIB becomes aware of problems, issues and anomalies in the delivery of services. It is in a position to document and analyse these and, in some cases, make recommendations for improvements. This is an important conduit for citizens’ problems to be brought to the attention of Government with a view to influencing policy decisions. Over the years, many of the issues raised in social policy reports have been addressed. Of course, not all have been, but this is nevertheless a valuable public policy vehicle. The timing of such submissions, for instance, at the budget preparation stage, is also important. The CIB also provides responses to Government consultations on various policy issues. These are all based on the board's experience in dealing with those who have problems with a particular issue that is being addressed.

I hope I have shown the committee that I have the necessary experience and qualifications to lead the Citizens Information Board over the next five years. I look forward to the challenges ahead. I am happy to take any questions the committee may have.

I thank Ms Mangan. We usually seek contributions in the order of the parties, starting with Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin. Does Deputy Kitt have questions to ask?

Does Deputy Ellis want to contribute at this stage?

Deputy Joan Collins will be followed by Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell.

I welcome Ms Mangan to the committee. Her qualifications seem appropriate for the job and I hope she does a good one.

There is one question I want to ask Ms Mangan. My local Citizens Information Board, which is at Ring Terrace in Inchicore and which is linked with the one in Dublin 8, is now on a two-day week. Because of the cuts, the service is unable to provide the five-day service it provided previously.

I am aware of changes in how the CIBs will provide services to citizens who need help. Can Ms Mangan provide information on what the reconfiguration entails and what is coming down the line? I believe they will try to close down many of the offices and reconfigure the remaining ones into three main areas. How will that impact on the services they provide? The Citizens Information Board offices are important points of contact for citizens to get independent advice. We have constituency offices but they are not the Citizens Information Board. The board gives independent information to citizens. The role the volunteers and workers in the Citizens Information Board offices play is helping people go through complex applications or forms. Will this new configuration be more service-driven or driven for the service needs of citizens?

I welcome Ms Mangan to the committee. The Tánaiste has made an outstanding appointment. Ms Mangan comes with a seriously qualitative background, including the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the European Commission office, the Law Reform Commission, the National Council of Ageing and Older People, the human rights commission and the Referendum Commission. We are lucky that she happens to be available to bring all this energy and these qualifications to the job. I wish her the very best of luck. It is a wonderful appointment.

I also compliment the Citizens Information Board. Recently I had reason to look up the fair deal for a person and it was to the Citizens Information Board that I went for the accuracy, clear, informed and explanatory nature of its service. The information was also on the fair deal website, but the Citizens Information Board did such good work on the matter that it was able to answer all the questions in the back of my head that were not so obvious on that website. I have one question. Can Ms Mangan tell us why the credit unions are not supplying small loans and how that can be reversed?

I thank Ms Mangan for coming in. She spoke of micro-loans. The problem in credit unions is that there are credit rating bureaus now coming in from the Central Bank and there are new rules and regulations. Those who got behind through no fault of their own with the Celtic tiger crash have renegotiated their loans but staff in a building society, credit union or bank can press a button and see that this person has renegotiated the loan, which remains a blip on their credit rating for a couple of years.

People are borrowing from moneylenders so we need to put in place a microfinance loan scheme in credit unions or post offices to allow them get small loans because they are paying their way. Ms Mangan is correct. When the washing machine or the television breaks down, these people do not have the money to replace them so they get a small loan, which they will pay back. They are paying back their loans as we speak, but in some cases they cannot get them.

It was sad to see the rules and regulations put on credit unions. I know serious mistakes were made. Credit unions were established by the people and provide people with smaller loans but, unfortunately, in certain areas they got too big for their boots and gave loans to people who should never have got them. That is very sad.

We need to begin to examine the credit rating bureau, which I believe is no longer fit for purpose. It was fine during the Celtic tiger period when we were awash with so-called money. That money has dried up and local economies are suffering because there is no cashflow. If these people get their small loan out of the credit union for back-to-school expenses or Christmas, they will spend that money in the local community. I am hearing every day of the week in retail that small shops are starved of cashflow. All retail runs on credit and when credit dries up the way it has happened here, it is very difficult for small, independent retail businesses to move on.

I am delighted Ms Mangan has brought up the issue but we have to examine microfinance loans and get the economy running with small loans. We must also examine the credit rating bureau to see how we can move forward on providing small loans. We must remember these people have renegotiated all their loans. They are paying them back but if the television, the fridge or whatever breaks down and they go to look for another small loan, it comes up that they have renegotiated their loans and they are listed for four or five years. That has to be changed, and the credit rating bureau has to be changed as well.

I wish Ms Ita Mangan well in the five-year term ahead. I am sure she will do an outstanding job. I hope we will all be here next year to work with her for the foreseeable future. We look forward to that.

The point she raised upfront, and which was made by Deputy Collins as well, was the value for money element in terms of what the future holds for the small local offices which, in my experience, provide a great service to the people I represent in Balbriggan, Skerries and such small towns. I would appreciate it if Ms Mangan would expand on that aspect.

I welcome Ms Ita Mangan. It may be a cliché but this is sometimes called the information age, and Ms Mangan is the master of information-giving. I refer to the very early stages in her career in the information services in Leeson Street where she established very high standards. She worked there for a good while with a friend of mine, Martin McGarry. It was very difficult to establish and give credibility to a service that was free of charge because people love going to solicitors where they pay a fortune to get advice. However, the advice Ms Mangan was giving free of charge was accurate and worthwhile, and people could make decisions based on the information and advice she provided. In a way she is the author of this entire edifice we see around us now on which so many of us rely. People who do not have a lot of money to get accurate information can, for a minimum charge, be reassured that the information they get will be a very good guide to their actions. I pay tribute to Ms Mangan personally, knowing her work and the credibility she has brought to it.

On information-giving, the courtesy with which it is done and its reliability are very important aspects of information because if people act on it, they want to know they are acting on a firm foundation. It has brought an important resource to civil society which perhaps is not appreciated widely enough. If Ms Mangan were in England, she would be getting an MBE or something similar at this stage because she has built something from the ground up that is very important.

I thank Ms Mangan for her presentation. There are many bells ringing in my head but I will try to dwindle them down to one. I have had a bee in my bonnet for a long time about moneylenders, particularly in the constituency I represent where many people depend on small loans. A report was done on that previously which indicated that the south-west inner city area had the highest number of people with loans from both established and criminal moneylenders. The report was shocking at the time.

I wish Ms Mangan well in her job. I have to be honest and say that if someone as qualified as her is given a job like this, there is hope for us all.

When I got married at first we did not have a house.

The first time the Deputy got married.

I have only been married once, and thank God he is still with me. My first washing machine came from the ESB shop in Ballyfermot. It was a shame that the ESB abandoned those little shops because they were a lifeline for people wanting to buy a cooker, washing machine or whatever. I am not that old but we did not have many fridges at that time. People could buy a washing machine or cooker from that little shop and when it closed, it was a tough time for many who did not have the cash in hand. Mr. Bolger in Inchicore, whom Deputy Conaghan will know, supplied everyone who moved into St. Michael's estate with their fridges and cookers, all of which were second hand but they got us over the hump in the road. I always believed it was a bad decision by the ESB to close those shops and leave people stranded because that is when moneylenders came on the scene and devoured those people, so to speak, who would normally go to the ESB shop and pay a rate for the product they could afford.

I compliment the people who run the citizens advice bureaus. They are very dedicated. Many of them are volunteers and are not paid, yet the information they have not only in their head but to hand is amazing. I turn to them myself on occasions when I am bothered about something.

Thousands of people do not have a loan with a credit union but there must be some channel through which such people can deal with a problem that might arise. I refer to the awful event of someone passing away and people not having enough money to deal with that. That can be very traumatic for people.

I congratulate Ms Mangan on her proposed appointment as chairperson. As the Minister said, we have done something right. In her capacity as the new chairperson of the Citizens Information Board, is there any way that information on moneylending could be highlighted for people who come into her office? I have sent many people who come to see me in my constituency office to the Money Advice & Budgeting Service, whose staff are brilliant, but we should talk to those people about the process of borrowing money from moneylenders, some of whom are criminals.

A long time ago when I was on the council, I dealt with a girl who had given over her children's allowance book. The moneylenders used to escort her to the post office, stand outside as she collected her money and then take it from her. It was a horrific time for that family. Perhaps Ms Mangan can comment on that.

I welcome Ms Mangan to the meeting and I compliment her on her new role as chairman of the CIB. What are her views on the overall restructuring of the agency, regionalisation and so on? Does she intend to work with small rural post offices, which are under threat at the moment, and encourage people to use their post office, etc.? That would be important because they are important in rural communities and many of them are under threat Every organisation should work to support them and ensure they remain in existence. Posts offices not only service the community but they have been part of the social fabric of society for a long time and the number that have closed over the past 20 years is regrettable. While only a few have closed over the past five or six years, we should encourage people to use them more.

I would like add to the good wishes of members on Ms Mangan's new role and to the compliments that have been paid to her in respect of her work to date.

Concerns have been expressed to members and myself about proposals to make changes to the service and one issue, in particular, has been raised with me. The citizens information service is very much regarded as community-based and independent of Government with a strong voluntary ethos. As chairman, does Ms Mangan intend to maintain those aspects of the service? There is concern that there may be attempts by civil servants to make the service more professional and to move away from its voluntary ethos. What type of consultation will be conducted in respect of future plans? Is remuneration associated with the position of chairman?

Ms Ita Mangan

There were quite a few questions and I will try to take them in sequence. I can identify with Deputy Byrne. I bought my first washing machine from the ESB as well almost 40 years ago and I am familiar with the system.

In response to the Chairman's final question, I do not know. I think there is but I did not ask. That is the honest to God truth. There probably is and it was remiss of me not to have asked but that is the reality.

Deputies Collins, Ryan and Bannon raised the issue of reconfiguration. First, there will be a new board coming in as well as myself. There will other members on the new board and all the decisions will have to be made by that board. No decisions have been made on reconfiguration or exactly how things will be done. Certain proposals have been made but no decisions have been made. Many of those proposals will need to be costed and we will need to see how exactly they would work out in practice. Everyone will recognise there is a tension between having everything locally and having everything of high quality. One has to come to a reasonable accommodation on those two issues.

While I have lived in Dublin for the vast majority of my life, I grew up in the country and I recognise the need to improve the pace of rural development. I am familiar with all the arguments about post office and Garda station closures and the consequences for local communities, etc. The CIB of itself cannot make a huge contribution to that but it can make some contribution. A rural development strategy is being prepared by the Government and that is the way froward on that.

The Chairman raised the issue of the services provided within the community and by the community and by volunteers. Again, there is a tension between the requirement to provide professional quality services - they do not have to be delivered by professionals; they can be delivered by volunteers - and the requirement on volunteers to get up to the speed on the various issues. Members will be familiar with much of the detail of social welfare legislation, about which I know a great deal, but it is extremely complex and it is difficult for volunteers to remain up to speed. The contribution made by volunteers and community groups must be balanced with the requirement that everything should be absolutely clear and correct because people are making decisions based on the information we provide. It is important that the service should be fully professional in the best sense of the word, even though it may not necessarily be delivered by professionals on all occasions.

On the issue of money advice, credit unions, loans, etc., the CIB does not make the rules about what credit unions do but we all know why they ran into problems and there is no point rehearsing all those arguments. Perhaps we will get to the stage where they recover sufficiently to enable them to go back to making the small loans members mentioned and facilitating people. We need the concept of the micro-loan as a separate stream of funding from credit unions, the post office or another source. We need that separate stream to keep people away from moneylenders because it is not in any of our interests to have 360,000 people still using moneylending facilities.

Deputy Butler raised the issue of credit rating. New credit rating arrangements will come into effect next year. I appreciate what he said. When people fail to meet certain bills, they become ineligible for other credit. The micro-loan concept could get them over that in that the availability of the loans could be set up in such a way that it would not be dependent on a previous credit rating or that a credit rating for large loans would not affect a person's ability to take a micro-loan.

I have covered all the major issues raised because members made the same point several times. I thank Deputy Connaughton for suggesting an honorary award but I would happily do without any such dame awards.

That concludes our discussion. I hope that Ms Mangan will appear before us in the future, particularly if she comes forward with proposals.

In her experience as a worker on the ground down through the years, as Deputy Connaughton pointed out, is there anything Ms Mangan would like to see changed quickly and radically? Is there any trajectory she should like to see up and running over her five years?

Ms Ita Mangan

I would like MABS to develop its skills in the manner in which it is now beginning to develop them to help people in the round not just with their mortgages but with all their other indebtedness in order that the organisation is in a position to provide the full range of services enabling people to avoid getting into the circumstances in which they have got themselves.

That needs to be co-ordinated with the information services so that people have sufficient information to make the right decisions to deal with their indebtedness. Co-ordination is required across all of the services provided by the Citizens Information Board. I have always been passionate about making accurate information available to people. I think I have driven people crazy over the years by insisting on everything being completely accurate. I will follow that through because people make bad decisions in the absence of accurate information. Our number one priority should be to provide accurate information to everybody.

Ms Mangan is correct in that regard. People who were supposedly literate and able got caught by the banks because they did not ask the right questions and thus were not given the correct information, or else the information was set out on page 103 of an agreement in tiny writing. They did not know their loans and mortgages were going to end up in a different country. Precision of communication, whether orally or in writing, is important because otherwise one ends with nothing to back up a decision. The decision might have been based on inaccurate or unclear information, with aspects that could have gone in every direction. This is important across all kinds of politics and life generally. I wish Ms Mangan luck in her job. I think she will be great.

If members are satisfied, we will conclude our discussion on this matter. I thank Ms Mangan for coming before the committee. Deputies and Senators regard the citizens' information website as an extremely useful resource, and I commend the board on that. I wish Ms Mangan the best of luck in her new role.

Sitting suspended at 2.12 p.m. and resumed at 2.17 p.m.
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