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Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Oct 2015

Remit of Ombudsman for Children in School Complaints: Discussion

Today we will examine the role, remit and activities of the Ombudsman for Children in regard to schools and their boards of management.

I draw the attention of the witness to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statement submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Mobile telephones should be switched off completely or switched to airplane or flight mode because they interfere with the broadcasting equipment. This part of our meeting is being broadcast live on Virgin Media channel 207, eVision channel 504 and Sky channel 574.

Today we are looking at the role, remit and activities of the Ombudsman for Children in regard to schools and their boards of management. Complaints in regard to schools are made in the first instance to a school or board of management.

However, a person under the age of 18 years or an adult, on behalf of such a person, may, in certain cases if they are unhappy with the response to such a complaint, make a complaint to the Ombudsman for Children.

To help us with our discussion on this topic I welcome Dr. Niall Muldoon, Ombudsman for Children, who is accompanied by his officials, Mr. Padraig Walsh, Dr. Karen McAuley and Ms Nuala Ward. Dr. Muldoon will discuss his role in regard to schools and their boards of management. I congratulate him on his recent appointment and invite him to make his presentation.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I realise the presentation I submitted to the committee was probably too long so I will not read it all but will shorten it for the purposes of the meeting.

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to meet the committee today. After working for nearly 20 years as a psychologist, the majority of it spent in the area of child protection, and two and a half years as director of investigations at the Office of the Ombudsman for Children, I was deeply honoured to be chosen as Ombudsman for Children. I received my warrant of appointment from President Higgins in February of this year and I welcome the opportunity to make my first appearance in front of this committee to discuss the role and functions of my office.

As the committee is aware, the Office of the Ombudsman for Children is an independent human rights institution established under the Ombudsman for Children Act 2002 to promote and monitor the rights of children in Ireland. My office has a unique combination of statutory functions. The one that may be most familiar to the members of the committee is my statutory function to examine and investigate complaints made by or on behalf of children in regard to the administrative actions, or inaction, of public bodies that have had, or may have had, an adverse effect on the child or children concerned. In carrying out this function, my office observes fundamental ombudsman principles: my office is independent and impartial, acting neither as an advocate for the child nor as an adversary of the public body complained against; we respect local complaints procedures and seek at all times to promote the resolution of complaints at a local level; and we endeavour to achieve systemic change through our complaints and investigations function by considering the root causes of complaints we receive.

My investigatory remit, as provided for under the Ombudsman for Children Act, also comprises two unique elements, which reflect two fundamental children’s rights principles as recognised under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. First, in the performance of my complaints-handling function, I am obliged to have regard to the best interests of the child concerned. Second, I am obliged, in so far as practicable, to give due to consideration to the wishes of the child, in accordance with her or his age and understanding. In this regard, my office has developed considerable expertise in engaging directly with children and young people when examining complaints made by them or on their behalf.

In addition to examining and investigating complaints, I have a complementary statutory remit, which is broadly concerned with promoting and monitoring the rights and welfare of children. The Oireachtas conferred a range of functions on the Ombudsman for Children in this regard under section 7 of the 2002 Act. These positive obligations include encouraging public bodies to develop policies, practices and procedures which are designed to promote children’s rights and welfare; advising any Minister on matters relating to the rights and welfare of children, including relevant developments in legislation and public policy; consulting with children and highlighting issues relating to their rights and welfare that are of concern to children themselves; and promoting awareness among members of the public, including children, of matters relating to children’s rights, including the principles and provisions of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

In respect of the functions of the office to advise on legislation and public policy, members of the committee will be aware that the office has provided independent advice on a wide range of legislation affecting children since its establishment in 2004. Given that matters concerning education are a key focus for the work of the committee, I will highlight that the office provided advice on the then general scheme of the education (admission to schools) Bill 2013.

Through our rights education programme, the office has engaged with primary and post-primary schools throughout the country and facilitated thousands of children and young people to explore and develop their understanding of children’s rights. In addition, we have developed a seminar programme for postgraduate students pursuing qualifications in social work, social care, education, and child protection and welfare, in which hundreds of students from universities and ITs in different parts of the country have participated.

The office’s different functions inform and support each other. Work undertaken in accordance with one particular statutory function may trigger complementary work under a different function. Similarly, where there is an obstacle to tackling a children’s rights issue – due to an exclusion to the Ombudsman for Children's office investigatory remit, for example – we can use another function to address the problem. This is what we did in regard to St. Patrick's Institution where we engaged with the young people about how they found the place and the concerns they had. This was done when the Office of the Ombudsman for Children had no investigatory remit, prior to July 2012. My intention in setting out this example is to demonstrate that a broad mandate that blends different functions can offer a range of options to address children’s rights issues; this is a very important aspect of the strong and robust mandate that the Oireachtas has given my office.

My office is handling approximately 1,600 complaints a year and while we saw a slight fall, of 5%, in the number of complaints received in 2014 over 2013, we still dealt with 9% more complaints than two years ago. The majority of complaints last year were in regard to education, 47%, and the next most significant proportion of complaints received related to family support, care and protection, 25%, that is, the area for which the Child and Family Agency has a remit. The vast majority of complaints, 75%, are brought by parents on behalf of their children.

The complaints received range in levels of complexity and we maintain our focus on seeking to resolve each one within the local procedures mechanism and as quickly as possible. It is important to realise that the office uses various mechanisms to resolve issues before escalating to a full investigation. In regard to education complaints, my team has engaged with parents, children, principals, boards of management and patrons throughout the country in various ways to assist both parties move forward to resolve matters in the best interest of children. However, when the issues raised are of a more complicated nature these may be more difficult to resolve locally and, therefore, could require a full investigation to achieve a resolution. Examples of issues, from all areas, not just education, we have investigated previously include the handling of child protection notifications by a social work area; the refusal of a section 10 payment to a family; access to support for a preschool child with special needs in the early childhood care and education scheme; resource allocation for children with special needs; and the admission policy within a school.

As evidenced above, education accounted for the highest proportion of complaints received in 2014 and that has been the case for many years. I have looked especially closely at the issues and outcomes in this regard. It is clear to me that the concerns raised consistently, by my office, over the years in regard to the complaints architecture within education have not been heeded. To date, the Education Act 1998 still represents the key legislative framework in which we seek to determine how schools operate. Successive governments have failed to implement fully the provisions of section 28 of that Act which sets out how grievances and concerns of a student may be dealt with and remedied. Part V of the Teaching Council Act 2001 is designed to examine teachers' fitness to practice and this too is still to be commenced, meaning that two major elements of the complaint structure for the general public are only available in theory.

Parents are entitled to expect to be able to raise concerns about how their children are being taught and to assume there is a standardised complaints system within all schools, however neither of those is available to them at present. While the Office of the Ombudsman for Children was set up with the expectation that it would be one part of the complaints landscape in regard to schools, it has de facto become the only element available to many parents. That is not good enough. I urge this committee to seek to have both of those missing elements brought into being as soon as possible.

The top three issues in respect of complaints received by the Office of the Ombudsman for Children are first, the handling of allegations of inappropriate professional conduct - I have dealt with this in a previous paragraph in regard to commencing Part V of the Teaching Council Act 2001; second, the handling of bullying - the Office of the Ombudsman for Children has engaged via our education and participation unit with children and young people around this issue to determine their views on how it happens and what needs to be done to stop it. This resulted in the publication of our Dealing with Bullying in Schools: A Consultation with Children and Young People in 2013 which fed into the anti-bullying procedures for primary and post-primary schools, issued by the Department of Education and Skills later that year. While I welcome the introduction by the Department of Education and Skills of new anti-bullying procedures for primary and post-primary schools, I have concerns regarding the monitoring of implementation of the procedures in schools. It would appear that no agency is tasked with examining schools’ annual reviews or any trends or anomalies that may emerge from them. As a result it is not clear how the State will fully track progress at a national level in regard to how different forms of bullying are being tackled in schools. It is for this reason I have recommended in my report to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, UNCRC, of April 2015 that the State should build on the monitoring framework contained in those procedures by examining the annual reviews by schools of their implementation of the procedures. For my part my office will continue to promote positive communication within schools and between parents and schools when we are dealing with such complaints.

The third issue is complaint handling, decisions and policy within schools. As stated previously, the complaint handling structures in the education sector are incomplete. It was originally envisaged that in order to bring about higher standards and consistency in schools, and complaints handling lacked practice, the Minister for Education and Skills would prescribe procedures for schools to deal with grievances raised by students or their parents, as well as the remedial action to be taken in response to those grievances.

These provisions never came into operation. Thus, in my recent report to the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child, I included a recommendation that the State "ensure that a comprehensive and consistent complaints handling framework is put in place in the education sector".

Through the course of its examination of complaints in the education sector, the Office of the Ombudsman for Children has formed the view that the degree of autonomy afforded to Irish schools has operated in such a way that the State has not been able to exercise responsibility and oversight in the manner required of it as a duty bearer under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. The office has observed this systemic problem in investigations relating to admissions and child protection, for example. For this reason, in my alternative report to the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child in April of this year, I recommended that the State "recalibrate the balance between schools' autonomy and oversight by Central Government in order to ensure that the State assumes an appropriate level of responsibility for advancing and protecting children's rights within the education system".

I thank members for their attention. I will be pleased to address any queries they have on these or other aspects of my role and functions as Ombudsman for Children.

I thank Dr. Muldoon for his presentation. With the agreement of other members, I will call Deputy Jim Daly first because he requested the meeting and has been pressing for some time to have this issue addressed.

I welcome the Ombudsman for Children, Dr. Muldoon, and his team and thank them for making themselves available. I congratulate Dr. Muldoon on his promotion since I last spoke to him in his office. He will be aware of my strong views on his role with respect to schools and their boards of management. I remind colleagues that it was this week 12 months ago that the joint committee discussed this issue with departmental officials, trade union representatives and other stakeholders. Members were aghast at that meeting when they learned from officials that neither the Department nor the Minister has any role or function in addressing parents' complaints or grievances arising from decisions taken by school boards of management. Most members will recall that this point was clarified in stark terms by departmental officials at the meeting.

As a result of the meeting last October, I published legislation seeking to extend the remit of the Office of the Ombudsman for Children to cover issues and grievances held by parents, teachers and other school staff. There is no avenue for appeal when grievances arise. This morning, I introduced the First Stage of a Bill proposing to amend the Education Act. I noted that one has a right of appeal when one is given a parking ticket, whereas there are no mechanisms in place to deal with grievances that arise from decisions taken by school boards and authorities in the education sector. These decisions affect our single greatest resource, namely, our children, yet they are not subject to any appeal mechanism when people have grievances about them.

I thank Dr. Muldoon for his comprehensive opening statement. He quickly got to the nub of the issue when he admitted that the Office of the Ombudsman for Children is the only show in town in this matter as no other avenues of appeal are available. With respect to his office, however, the problem has always been that it does not have powers of compulsion or direction. It can encourage and suggest but it does not have powers to direct or compel. For this reason, I am seeking the establishment of a dedicated education ombudsman who would have the powers to direct schools to behave in accordance with natural laws and justice. It is to our great shame that we do not have such a mechanism in place in 2015, despite a budget of €8.2 billion being provided for education every year.

It suits the Department of Education and Skills not to have an ombudsman for education as the current position reflects the wishes of many of the vested interests in education. My Bill will receive greater opposition than anything else I will do because it upsets the status quo and vested interests. It suits people to have a closed shop in which boards of management say and do what they like without anyone being able to hold them to account. We saw distasteful and incorrect practices in Rehab and other boards. I hold the Ombudsman for Children in high regard and I compliment his office on the work it does for a group of children who are very close and dear to my heart because I have the privilege of sharing my home with some of them. I refer to children in State care. The Ombudsman for Children has blazed a trail in highlighting this issue which is one that nobody wants to speak about or address. I commend his office on taking on that issue and numerous other issues.

The annual report of the Ombudsman for Children refers to the case of a pregnant teenage girl whose application to be enrolled at a local school was refused because of her pregnancy. After having her baby, the school refused again to enrol her because its ethos precluded it from educating a single mother. These decisions are an indictment of all of us. We should hang our heads in shame that a publicly-funded school made such a decision. As Dr. Muldoon noted, the school which refused a pregnant girl an education and subsequently refused her entry again when she became a young mother did not have a board of management. A single person acts as its owner. When the Office of the Ombudsman for Children contacted the Department on the matter of policy direction for schools, it found that the Department does not have legal powers to instruct individuals to follow a particular course of action with regard to individual complaints, despite being the paymaster. This is an appalling scenario. Who is in charge of the education sector when something goes wrong? While I accept that a great deal of good is being done in education, someone must take responsibility when things go wrong. There are many aggrieved parents.

In fairness to the Ombudsman for Children's office, it did what it could. For example, it wrote to the school seeking paperwork on the case to which I referred. The school did not comply with this request and subsequently did not engage when the office sought a meeting. It also refused its request that it apologise to the girl in question and made no effort with the Office of the Ombudsman for Children to rectify the matter. I am appalled by this case.

This example shows that, unfortunately, the Office of the Ombudsman for Children does not have the powers needed to direct a school to have an enrolment policy which treats people in a natural, open and just manner. The absence of such a policy is the reason I am determined to see the introduction of an ombudsman for education which would have real teeth and powers to get to the nub of this issue and be able to compel rather than encourage schools to do the right thing. I do not mean in any way to be derogatory towards the role of the Office of the Ombudsman for Children but if a parent were to contact with me a grievance, I would be more inclined to advise him or her to ring Joe Duffy than to contact the Ombudsman for Children. I am not being facetious when I say this but the Dr. Muldoon does not have powers to compel or direct people who are misbehaving to behave. All he can do is suggest and recommend. If a parent complains on "Liveline", he or she may or may not get more satisfaction. That is my difficulty.

I appreciate the number of references Dr. Muldoon made to the failure to heed concerns his office had consistently raised over the years regarding the complaints architecture in education. The Garda Síochána, with a budget of €1.2 billion, is subject to the Garda Inspectorate, policing authority and Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. How many of us interact with the Garda Síochána? We may do so once or twice in a lifetime but parents interact with the education system daily without having available to them any means or vehicle to have a complaint addressed. While the Ombudsman for Children may accept a complaint, he does not have the power to compel people to do the right thing.

Does the Ombudsman for Children support my proposal for the establishment of an ombudsman for education? Will he quantify the number of complaints his office has received since its inception in 2004 that related specifically to educational matters and the number of these which were subsequently investigated?

I thank the Chairman for showing such latitude.

Would Dr. Muldoon like to respond or will we first take questions from Deputy McConalogue?

Deputy O'Brien can go first.

I completely agree with everything Deputy Daly has outlined. This is an issue he has been trying to resolve for years and he has been a very vocal advocate for extending the powers of the ombudsman. The Bill he published today provides for the establishment of an education ombudsman.

We also need to remember that there is legislation in place which allows schools to discriminate on the basis of religious ethos - for example, if someone is a single mother. If we are to be serious about it, while establishing an education ombudsman is part of the solution, we also need to remove the discriminatory legislation that remains on the Statute Book. That is how the Department can start to rectify this issue. If this legislation did not exist, the school in question would not have been able to deny that single mother a place based on its ethos. That is not to take away from the proposals of Deputy Daly. There is still a need for an education ombudsman and I fully support the proposal. There are other areas that we also need to look at; the matter is not only relevant in this area. We have had a lot of discussion about enrolment policies and people not being allowed into over-prescribed schools based on religion, and again, it is down to pieces of legislation which have absolutely no place on the Statute Book in this day and age.

I welcome the witnesses and join in congratulating Dr. Muldoon on his appointment as Ombudsman for Children.

There is undoubtedly an issue regarding oversight of our school system and the mechanisms for appeal and redress that are available to those who are unhappy with the decisions of boards of management. It is certainly long past time - Dr. Muldoon referred to this in his comments - that systems were put in place at Department level to deal with that.

I would be interested in hearing Dr. Muldoon's response to the suggestion put forward by Deputy Daly on the need for a specific education ombudsman. What does he believe might be the differences between the role of the proposed education ombudsman and that of the Ombudsman for Children? Would Dr. Muldoon welcome the powers in his own office? Does he feel his own office would have the capacity to deal with what Deputy Daly is proposing?

The Department of Education and Skills, as the paymaster and the body which sets policy and, in theory, runs the education system, must actually put in place appropriate appeals mechanisms for those who are unhappy with decisions that boards of management or schools might make. Ultimately, an ombudsman is the final recourse after appropriate appeals have been made, and should certainly not be the first recourse. There are definitely levels missing from the process at the moment. The Department of Education and Skills needs to embrace this. Currently the choice is either to go to Dr. Muldoon, who can comment on matters but does not have binding powers, or to go to the courts. I do not think that is an acceptable recourse for ordinary parents who have their kids' education and interests at heart. I would be interested in hearing Dr. Muldoon's feedback on what needs to happen at the Department and on Deputy Daly's proposal.

I add my congratulations to Dr. Muldoon on his appointment and thank him for coming in today. I commend Deputy Daly on his very passionate contribution. I wholeheartedly agree - as the song says, "You took the words right out of my mouth." I know Deputy Daly was a teacher in a former life. I think everybody across the education field would feel his frustration. Some 47% of the cases the ombudsman deals with are education-related. I have come across it as well.

Whom do schools answer to? I have brought queries and complaints up the chain of command in instances when parents have gone to principals. I know of one case in which several letters were completely ignored by a principal over the space of nine months. I advised the parents to bring the matter to the attention to the board of management, which they did. They got two communications from the board of management, both containing conflicting reports. They were then told by the Department that they needed to take the matter to the religious order. The bishop said "Sorry, that is not my remit; you need to go to the trustees of the school." Parents are just chasing the whole time in these situations. They went to the trustees of the school, who at first were very hesitant to meet with them. The trustees agreed to meet, but in a public place, and then they came armed with other people. Of course nothing the parents said was taken into consideration. The trustees walked back out and totally backed the principal, having admitted that what had happened was wrong. It left the parents not knowing what to do. They did not want the matter to blow up into a major case. They just walked away and said "Education system Forget it." All I can say to those parents is that I completely agree because from the top down there is absolutely nobody to whom the schools will answer. It is even the way the board of management is structured - if it is a religious school there will be representatives from the religious order and it is all very carefully done. I totally agree that we need somebody to whom schools are completely answerable. I am saying this as somebody who has been in the education profession, as a mother and as a public representative who has dealt with cases like the one I have described.

There is nothing more soul-destroying than for somebody to go through all the correct procedures, trying to get a better solution for our young people, only to have it thrown back in his or her face, or for someone to have the powers that be within a school turn around and say "We are not answerable to anybody. We are not answerable to the Department or the Minister. We do what we do ourselves." If there is a grievance, it has a knock-on effect on pupils too. If they see that nothing can be done for them, they tend then to go inside themselves. We can have all the bullying policies we like but if something is not seen to be done those policies are futile.

I also congratulate Dr. Muldoon on his appointment. There can be no doubt as to Deputy Daly's commitment. As an educator and someone who managed a school himself, it is particularly poignant that he raised this matter today, and I am impressed by the way he spoke. I could not support him more if I tried. Deputy O'Brien is right, though. We need to go further, because some of the legislation we have facilitates the type of nonsense that goes on in our education system. We have here many people who have worked in the education system, including myself. I certainly want enforceability of decisions.

There is a problem which I encountered this last year during the exam time. The leaving certificate examination is the make-or-break point for a young person of 17, 18 or 19.

It can determine their future life, where they are going or where they are not going. Sometimes we have requests for extra facilitation because a student has a particular diagnosis or whatever. If such a request is refused, one must go through the appeals mechanism and work one's way up the line. In some cases, the fault for any delay lies very much on the side of the student or parent for not raising the issue much earlier in the year. Sometimes it is a case of tardiness on the part of the school in not driving the matter forward. If the decision is that the requested facilities will not be provided, it may be too late for an appeals process to kick in. Where there is doubt and a time constraint, we should favour the student, not the Department. We should put the facilities and mechanisms in place to allow students to take the examination with whatever supports they or their professional advisers deem necessary. If we afterwards find we made a mistake, it is a bit like hanging and one cannot go back and change it. On the other hand, if we make a mistake by not providing the facilities that were, in fact, required, then we are in serious trouble.

On the question of the power of principals, I have a difficulty with a situation where the board of management has a very dominant principal and it is his or her ethos rather than the school's ethos that finds its way through the system. For all intents and purposes, such principals become the gate blockers or gatekeepers who can prevent certain actions being taken. I am not saying this happens all the time, but it does happen from time to time. Judging by what I have heard today, Deputy Jim Daly will have no difficulty in getting his legislation through the Oireachtas. At least I hope that will be the case.

I would not bet on it.

Everybody in this room is in agreement on the matter in any case.

Reference was made to a case where a student became pregnant and subsequently sought to return to school as a mother. What this case illustrates is that we really are a nation with two sets of standards. We apply particular standards to one issue but all those nice principles go out the window in another area. We must deal with those types of situations urgently. One of the outcomes I see through Dr. Muldoon's office is that schools will be subjected to additional inspections. We are all aware of cases where a board of management - or, in the case of the particular school to which I referred, a person acting as de facto board of management - can essentially run roughshod over the system. I agree with Deputies Jim Daly and O'Brien that the funding agency which should be taking responsibility is the Department of Education and Skills. We are pumping tens of thousands of euro into schools but one person can make a decision, which the board of management, if there is one, will uphold. By the time the appeals process has been gone through, we have wasted the ombudsman's time and that of parents, legal advisers and all the other people involved. It makes no sense that staff should be penalised by way of the imposition of more inspections because a board of management or an individual made a decision, as in this case, not to allow a young pregnant girl into the school. What sort of a nonsense outcome is that and who thinks up such things? It beggars belief that it goes on.

I agree with Deputy Jim Daly that for every outcome in the ombudsman's office, there should be some form of compellability to force the organisation or individuals concerned to do the right thing and, where they do not do so, there should be recourse to the courts. I am not sure whether Deputy Jim Daly wants the proposed ombudsman for education to come in under the Ombudsman for Children or to have a separate office entirely. He might clarify that for us. In either case, the new ombudsman must have that compellability function, that is, the ability to bring these people before the law and force them to adopt the recommendation which, after all, the ombudsman's office is highly skilled and well tasked to make.

I welcome the Ombudsman for Children and his staff. I was touched by Deputy Jim Daly's presentation. My background is in primary and teacher education and I have always been intrigued by the fact that teachers are paid by the Department of Education and Skills but hired by boards of management. Until we change the legislative structure underpinning that, we will not solve any of the issues we are discussing today. Will Dr. Muldoon comment on that? My experience is that boards of management are very autonomous but they are not, and should not be considered to be, infallible. Let us face it, all of us who are paid from the public purse should be open to scrutiny. I had a lot of experience dealing with admissions and cases where there is no school place available for a child. Sometimes it is like dealing with a closed shop.

Following on from Deputy Jim Daly's question, does Dr. Muldoon agree that we need a new ombudsman for education? Or does he see his role, responsibilities and remit being extended to deal with that? Dr. Muldoon described his office as an independent human rights institution whose function is to examine and investigate complaints made by or on behalf of children, particularly in respect of health and education matters. I would like Dr. Muldoon to clarify the extend of his remit. At this time, the parents of more than 100 children are very concerned about the alleged adverse effects of the HPV cervical cancer vaccine on their children's health.

I remind the Senator that our discussion today is focused on a very specific topic.

I cannot allow it to stray into areas which are more relevant to the remit of the health committee.

I hear what the Chairman is saying.

I ask the Senator to frame her questions accordingly.

My question is whether the Ombudsman for Children is in a position to support parents in that area. In a similar vein, we have heard of cases where children have been misdiagnosed by a teacher or psychologist attaching to a school as being autistic when, in fact, they may more accurately be described as suffering a syndrome that is not yet named. Does Dr. Muldoon have any role in supporting parents in such cases?

Dr. Muldoon has a lot of questions to deal with, so I ask him to respond at this point.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I will begin by asking my colleague and director of investigations, Ms Nuala Ward, to deal with the question on statistics, incorporating information since 2004. We do not have all of that information completely up to date but we are close.

Ms Nuala Ward

I do not have the figures for 2004; we only brought the data for 2014. It is very important for the key message to go out today that we are effective in managing complaints about education. As Dr. Muldoon mentioned, in 2014, 47% of complaints to our office were to do with education. It is important to emphasise that these queries do not relate solely to schools; we are involved wherever children talk to the education sector. For example, we deal with complaints in respect of the National Council for Special Education, the State Examinations Commission and the Department of Education and Skills. That strong systemic approach is a key strength of our office and of the legislation.

Three quarters of the complaints concerning education are to do with individual schools. There might be a perception that all we do is conduct investigations but, in fact, they make up a very small part of our work. We strive for local resolution, which is the key role and function of an ombudsperson. The majority of such cases receive a service from us, but the service will vary depending on the need. Some parents contact us because they simply do not know where to go or, for instance, they are seeking advice and support in advance of a meeting with the board of management which they may find intimidating.

That type of support is a key part of our role, and that occurs for 62% of complainants who come to our office.

Sometimes issues become more complex. That still will not be an investigation but we spend a lot of time working directly with parents, boards of management and children to try to seek a local resolution. That is the best outcome because it is fast and effective, and must be in the best interests of children. We have travelled throughout the country and engaged with people. As members can imagine, when complaints are made we are talking about a very human relationship and therefore emotions can be high by the time we have been asked to step in. We have found that, in many ways, our impartial role can be a very powerful agent of change.

Of the 37% of those cases in which we were more involved and active, we found that we were very effective in seeking local resolution. That could be a child coming back into school or mediation, where the two parties have agreed to come together. All of those are powerful resolutions, and they are timely for children.

It is important to note that at this stage we can also make encouraging suggestions. I hear what the member said about powers of compellability but we have been very effective in getting boards of management involved. After we have done this work with them they have changed policies and learned from the process. They do not want to make the same mistake again. They have amended their bullying and complaints policies and circulated the complaints procedure. They have made many important changes that not only affect the individual child but all children in the school, and future children who will be placed in the school.

We had three investigations in 2014, which were complex issues. As they are ongoing it would not be appropriate for us to talk about them now, but some of the investigations we have published in the past are those in which we have advocated for more systemic changes for children.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Overall, it would not be my belief that there is a need for an education ombudsman. Many of the questions come together in terms of whether our remit is sufficient. It is my belief that we do have a sufficient remit across the education system. We have overall responsibility for interaction with the Department of Education and Skills, although the system is probably not linked the way it should be. Members will see that I highlighted in the presentations the two elements of the architecture of complaints. I am a psychologist, and everyone here is a social worker or a lawyer. All of us have professional oversight bodies that examine our conduct. That has not happened in regard to teachers. It is a big drawback that there is not an element of independent oversight with regard to professional conduct. That is something no ombudsman will ever get to work on because part of the fundamentals of ombudsmanship is that one does not work in the working-----

Sorry for interrupting but what about the Teaching Council?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

The element that is missing is part 5, which allows the Teaching Council to examine the teacher's conduct. We suggest that needs to be brought forward and it would make a huge inroad-----

(Interruptions).

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I believe so, and I look forward to seeing it happen. It will not stop all the complaints we get because they would be dealing with certain levels, but I believe that will make a structural difference to the way we work. Also, consistent, clear and comprehensive complaint handling available in all schools across the country would have made a huge difference; that is section 28 of the Education Act. That would change the way we would deal with complaints.

As regards compellability and having real teeth and power versus encouragement, as the Deputy stated, if we go back to the starting point, the essence of ombudsmanship is to work on the element of encouragement because we are supposed to be an alternative to courts. As Deputy McConalogue stated, there are two choices; go to the Ombudsman or go to court. We want to avoid the need for people to go to court because that is very much dependent on funding. We are a free alternative to court and offer an impartial and fair assessment of the issues and concerns.

In terms of compellability, as has been seen in many other countries around the world where they did not use the ombudsman system, if the process is made compellable people automatically start "lawyering up". It goes from a complaint that could be worked on, negotiated and fixed at a local resolution level straight to a court scenario and the parent who does not have that sort of funding is automatically disadvantaged. Our job is to fight for those people in that situation regardless of their financial setting. We seriously disadvantage young people and children in that situation. I guarantee that the boards of management the member is concerned about are the ones who will quickly go to lawyers. That is one of the major drawbacks. It means that we have to work a little harder on relationships with individual boards, schools and the Department of Education and Skills. We are constantly working with the Irish Primary Principals' Network, the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD, and the various agents that work within the education system. We try to create relationships to allow us facilitate change and local resolution, where necessary. That takes a bit longer. It may not be as high profile as a strong-hitting court case but it creates a great deal of energy and results in many changes that we will never be able to publicise.

The real strength of ombudsmanship is that moral suasion that comes to bear. Some of the biggest changes that happened around the world were done in that scenario rather than in a court case. In terms of many of the Department of Education and Skills interactions, one of the biggest fears is that it will end up in court. The only time something gets changed is that fear of court, and that is something we want to make sure does not happen. We want the changes to happen on the ground and as my director stated, we make many small changes throughout the country. From my point of view, therefore, that is where we are at now. I believe we have the remit and the facilities to do it. The system we oversee needs to change. That is where there is a real gap in terms of the board of management and, as people have asked, who deals with that board of management? We can deal with the boards of management in terms of the way they administer their schools and work on their policy and procedures. We can make sure they have the right policies and procedures and that they are fair and used in the right way, but we cannot necessarily follow through on how they spend their money and deal with certain decisions. That is a drawback that needs to be examined.

In my presentation to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, I said that there needs to be a recalibration in terms of the autonomy of schools and the responsibility of the State in that regard. I am not quite sure how that will look. This might be the start of a conversation that will allow that to happen but there is a sense that, where necessary, we can go to the Department of Education and Skills and tell them we believe there has been a failure but they will tell us they cannot do anything about the board of management. My suggestion is that the education ombudsman would have no difference in that regard. My sense of that is that the system is flawed. I think that covers Deputy McConalogue's questions and I will try to cover the other questions also.

Dr. Muldoon has legislative advisory functions.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Yes.

On the items of legislation-----

Dr. Niall Muldoon

In regard to discrimination, our advice submitted on the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill was that we believe all discriminatory elements should be withdrawn from the school setting. We would be very clear that no child should be advantaged going to a public funded school based on their religion or that of their parents. The Deputy and I would be on the same page in that regard.

The report we adopted as a committee did not go that far because it is a fraught issue in terms of the Constitution.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I am aware of that.

Would the issue of last minute examinations come into that?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Absolutely. As stated earlier, the State Examinations Commission came into our remit in the middle of 2013 so we have been working on that. That has been a high profile issue for us on which we have been working directly with the commission. We believe improvements need to be made within the commission in the way it deals with complaints. Our sense is that in terms of the appeals that take place, as the Senator said, there is not clear communication with the parents on how it should happen and what needs to occur. When they are done under the pressure of being three days away from the first examination, everybody is at a disadvantage, especially the child. From our point of view that is a clear indication of where the best interests of the child could be easily worked on earlier than that, and there needs to be some way to make sure that happens. We have dealt with approximately 60 complaints in a period of time. From January onwards we anticipate these sort of issues will arise in that scenario and it is very unfair because those young people are geared up for the most important element of their lives at that stage and it makes a huge difference if they do not have the support they felt they were sure of or that they had in the junior certificate. We can certainly work with the commission to improve that scenario as much as possible.

If I could just say-----

Sorry Senator but other questions were asked; we can come back to the supplementaries. Deputy O'Brien had to leave early but I did not want to open the floor to everyone.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Senator Healy Eames asked if the remit needed to be extended, but I do not believe it does. As I said, the system of which we have oversight needs to be changed in some way. There needs to be some recalibration.

I am not sure if I can answer the questions about the cervical cancer vaccine.

No; it does not come within the heading. It is not for our committee.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Health would, in general, absolutely.

Yes, but it is not our remit and it was not on the agenda today.

These things are distributed in schools.

I think that is a topic for a different committee.

My question is relevant to a schools setting.

Yes, but it is not on the agenda today. Was there any other outstanding point?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Was it the misdiagnosis of autism?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

We do not have a remit in clinical decisions, if that is the question the Senator is asking. Is it about clinician misdiagnosis and whether that is a professional decision?

It is about schools telling parents that their children look as though they are on the autistic spectrum when, in fact, it appears that there is a new syndrome emerging among a large body of children that has not yet been named. Therefore, they are saying one thing that it is not likely to be.

Would that not be a question for the National Council for Special Education?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

We will have a look at that sort of matter to see what we can do.

Mr. Páraic Walsh

That is an issue that comes up on a case-by-case basis. Certainly, as regards the anxiety and worries of parents when facing any diagnosis, sometimes the diagnosis is needed to get access to the resources. That may be what the Senator is hinting at - that it can be a difficulty even having the name of a condition.

The number one concern is misdiagnosis, and then, of course, there are a load of concerns around a misdiagnosis. If one gives a misdiagnosis and does not understand what is fundamentally wrong with the way the child is processing - Mr. Walsh knows what I mean.

Mr. Páraic Walsh

We certainly deal with complaints actively where families or parents are seeking access to resources, supports, advice or guidance.

Appropriate supports, yes.

Mr. Páraic Walsh

Appropriate supports on behalf of children. That takes on our approach of trying to link in with other agencies involved, whether it is NEPS or CAMHS. It shows the full spectrum of what we do at times in trying to ensure that principals who are doing a good job of trying to advise and support families have accurate information. It is an ongoing thing. Two complaints are never the same in that area, but it is something that we are involved in. There are items that may never make it as far as an investigation but if, on examination, there is a lack of clarity between mum and dad and the school, or there is no meeting of minds on an issue, that is where clarity can sometimes be brought to bear. There may never be an investigation.

I am grateful to say that Mr. Walsh would have a role in this area. I am referring to an emerging pattern whereby quite a number of parents feel this misdiagnosis is being made and therefore the child is not being understood in the first place. Second, they cannot access the appropriate supports because they are being given supports for the wrong issue. Does Mr. Walsh know what I mean?

Mr. Páraic Walsh

I do.

I will come in myself because I want to make a couple of points. I will then take supplementary questions. I know that Deputy Jim Daly wants to speak again. It is important for this to be said at the committee. I know a lot of people through politics, people who are on school boards of management. I have been on one myself for a local community school. There has been a democratic and legal tradition whereby elected representatives were appointed to school boards of management. It is part of the whole VEC and education and training boards structure, whereby there was a notion of democratic accountability, and that schools were for the community. I know a lot of people on school boards of management and they are thoughtful and they put a lot of work into it. They do a lot of soul searching when particular dilemmas come up before them on school boards of management. We need to recognise that while one gets bad cases, there is so much good work done also. If I was asked whether it should be autonomous or State-controlled, I would say that the answer is somewhere in the middle with democratic accountability. Many schools do not have that. It is in the VEC sector - now the education and training boards - but one does not have it in the majority of other schools. That is what I feel.

I have a question about Mr. Walsh's presentation. He said it would appear that no agency is tasked with examining schools, annual reviews or any trends or anomalies that emerge from them in the context of bullying. What about the schools inspectorate? I would have thought it would have a remit with school reports. Am I correct there?

They do not have those powers when it comes down to it.

I have another point. We looked at the issue of school admissions that Deputy O'Brien raised. I personally think that there are constitutional issues, and that is our advice. There are a lot of soft barriers. In his submission, Mr. Walsh mentioned that and the parental rule, which constitute blatant discrimination. When an audit of enrolment policies was done by the Department and the ESRI, they found that the soft barriers were as big an issue - things like the "first come, first served" policy, which is in the legislation. Very often soft barriers can be the real issue. Are Travellers more likely to be stopped from going to school on the basis of a "first come, first served" enrolment policy than by the parental rule? The latter rule is in so few schools. Very often, soft discrimination can be hidden but is more prevalent.

I am not familiar with the case that was mentioned. Obviously, it is a damning indictment of the system that someone could be refused a place on that basis and that a school could get away with that. However, was it because of the framing of the legislation around a school's ethos and being allowed to organise education around the religious ethos? Was that the crucial issue? Most schools are the opposite of that. I know of so many cases in which schools have gone out of their way to keep people in the education system. It is very bad that a school would get away with that, but I wonder what the crucial factor was there if they got away with it.

Does anyone else want to come in at this stage?

I will be as brief as I can. I thank Mr. Walsh and Dr. Muldoon for their responses. I wish to echo what the Chair said and I did not introduce that in my opening remarks. The amount of appreciation across the sector for the voluntary nature of boards of management, the time commitment and dedication from us as parents is enormous. It is voluntary, but the issue I am getting at is that there could be a bad apple in the bag of a hundred. Grievances carried by parents are difficult to listen to, and they feel frustrated. I absolutely concur with the Chairman on that.

I am not surprised that the Ombudsman for Children is not supportive of an ombudsman for education. The Department is not supportive either, nor is the Teaching Council. I do not think the Minister or the unions would be that supportive, although I cannot speak for them. That does not derail me from where I am going, however. As a legislator my job is to legislate and I do not react to the say-so of the more permanent government. My job is to legislate where I see a need to do so, and I will continue with that. Saying that the Ombudsman for Children can deal adequately with what I am raising here is the equivalent of saying that the Minister for Children is responsible for the Department of Education and Skills. I do not think one can say that. Education is difficult and complex, and there are many avenues to it. It has been built up over many decades with archaic structures in place which are difficult to understand.

I have been closely associated with a number of constituents who have contacted the Office of the Ombudsman for Children, and people who have come to me since I raised this issue. They have found some of the language used by the office to be difficult. I explained this before when I met with Dr. Muldoon. Much of the language used by his office can be off-putting. An ombudsman for education would be far more approachable than the Office of the Ombudsman for Children because of its very limited remit.

I asked specifically for numbers as opposed to percentages, which is what I sought from Dr. Muldoon's office. I appreciate if he cannot give them to me today, but I would appreciate it if he could do so in future. I would like to know the number of complaints that were education-related, since the inception of the office in 2004, and the number of these that went on to investigation.

I am referring to numbers rather than percentages because my issue is that, for a variety of understandable reasons, the Ombudsman for Children does not investigate many of the complaints. Many parents receive letters saying it is not appropriate or whatever.

Boards are voluntary in nature. When I was a principal I was told by a union official that there were three requirements for the chairperson of the board of management, namely, that he or she was Catholic, GAA and Fianna Fáil. I know that is an antiquated view, but it is still relevant in a small number of places. That was the mindset once upon a time. That is not to say that there is anything wrong with being Catholic, GAA or Fianna Fáil.

Teachers are often the victims of decisions taken by boards of management or are bullied by other teachers. That is nothing to do with the Ombudsman for Children. I am anxious to see their rights vindicated. An ombudsman for education would further protect the reputation of a teacher. I could allege that my child is being bullied by a teacher, and there is no avenue to appeal that claim or make a complaint. Such a teacher would never be vindicated and the charge can stand.

If I cannot get the numbers for which I asked today, I would like them at some stage. I again thank the witnesses.

After leaving these meetings, Dr. Muldoon must feel nothing but education exists in our heads. I can reassure Deputy Daly in that I do not think the teaching unions would have any difficulty whatsoever with an education ombudsman, provided he she did not stray into the area of teacher discipline. We have the Teaching Council to look after that.

That brings me back to Dr. Muldoon's office and its engagement with various groups. He mentioned he engaged with the IPPN and the NAPP. Having been involved in the drafting of school policies in the early days, I was always concerned about the fact that there are recommended templates from an office such as the ombudsman or elsewhere. My experience has been that boards of management usually rubber-stamped a policy that was put in place by staff. That was great if staff were discerning, well up to speed and prepared to share. Indeed, most of the policies with which I was engaged were the result of shared knowledge across the sector. I am concerned that standards are not in place. If the Ombudsman for Children is not engaged in that process I would like to see him so engaged.

Dr. Muldoon mentioned section 5 of the Teaching Council Act. I would hate to think his office was starting to dabble in that because we have enough trouble with section 5, in terms of allowing those who are allowed to engage with the area to deal with it and be damned.

We recently passed the Gender Recognition Act. Only two weeks ago I was approached by teacher who asked whether I knew the school would be admitting a boy who has become a girl. I pleaded ignorance for a few minutes. The person concerned said she would not go to the toilet, nor would anybody else, while he was in the school. It always strikes me that we close the door after the horse has bolted. Surely processes and procedures should be in place to deal with such issues.

Does Dr. Muldoon's office have any role in preparing for legislation he knows will be passed in order that we have policies in place to protect children? We have agreed that gender recognition can be dealt with for those to aged as young as 16, I understand, with medical and parental support, etc. That means children as young as those of junior certificate age are having to cope with these things.

I refer to direct provision, which Deputy Daly mentioned. If the Ombudsman for Children had the power of enforceability we would never have encountered the refusal of education to children in direct provision some years ago. I support Deputy Daily on the notion of an education ombudsman. I am not so sure that I want such an office to operate outside the Office of the Ombudsman for Children, but I support the concept and would do everything I could to support such a proposal as it made its way through the Houses.

This has been a good conversation. The Chairman said Dr. Muldoon's role needs to be somewhere between democratic and making people accountable. I take his point that he does not want a court-based approach. This is about helping the child, and the child will lose too much time in resolving an issue that affects his or her life if there is a court-based approach which could take years. Children learn at critical times in key stages in their development. What approach would Dr. Muldoon advocate based on the current democratic approach, which involves encouraging, cajoling, advocacy and compatibility? Can the committee to anything to deliver a midway approach?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

The essence of the work of the Ombudsman for Children is to work with people and make sure they work together. I would recommend to legislators those elements of support for a system that allows the board of management to report within the system and Department of Education and Skills systems in a different way. I called it a recalibration of autonomy. I am not quite sure what it looks like, but it could possibly involve a change of direction.

As Deputy Daly said, it has taken a long time to build up the current system. To redirect it in a way that creates a little bit more oversight is something legislators need to examine and the Department needs to discuss. I have not had any discussions with the Department but it is something that needs to come into play. It is important that we start thinking about how that happens.

I do not want to put out any direct suggestions at this stage, having not had any discussions with some of the parties directly around the issue, but things are moving in that direction. Once the system is in place, I will have oversight of it. While I may not necessarily be compelling a board of management directly, if somebody in the Department of Education and Skills has oversight on a board I would have interaction there.

Dr. Muldoon is saying to us that we can change it.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I am saying that within the legislation it is a State recommendation.

Ms Ward referred to the office being very effective. My contribution was never to highlight otherwise. It is a very effective office and it has never been my issue or contention that the Office of the Ombudsman for Children is not doing its job. My contention is that it is not responsible for the ills that exist within the education system, but neither is it the solution. That is in no way a reflection of the calibre and execution of Dr Muldoon's duties within his office. I want to clarify that point.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I want to make sure that it is on the record that when we use the term "investigation" we are referring to a very small number of situations in which very difficult issues have not been resolved as quickly as we would like, where complications have arisen and people have become entrenched. It is important, as the Deputy presents our argument, to point out that the failure to reach an investigation level is not the same as a failure in our office to carry out a proper examination of a complaint.

People like their issues to be investigated, but we conduct a lot of examination and other stuff before reaching that level. It is important to put on record that while 95% of our cases do not meet a level of investigation, a large amount of work is done before that and many cases are resolved. That is part of the way we work. Not reaching an investigation level is not the same as a case not having been worked on by our office. May I continue? Is there a division?

Yes, unfortunately that is what happens towards the end of meetings with votes and so on.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I will ask Ms McAuley to deal with bullying, the role of inspectors and soft barriers.

Dr. Karen McAuley

I thank the Chairman for her question on this issue. Our understanding in respect of anti-bullying procedures for primary and post-primary schools introduced in 2013 is that they include a requirement for schools to undertake an annual review of their anti-bullying policies. An increased focus by the Department of Education and Skills inspectorate as regards promoting positive whole-school cultures and examining how schools are dealing with bullying is envisaged.

From our perspective, we are concerned that there is no agency or mechanism in place that is tasked with examining schools' annual reviews of their anti-bullying procedures. While there is an internal review mechanism within schools and a broader review by the inspectorate in the context of the whole-school evaluation, we believe there is need for the establishment nationally of an annual monitoring and review mechanism that could address any issues or anomalies that may arise.

In regard to the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill, we agree, based on our experience as an office over a number of years, that there are soft barriers in existence relating to enrolment. This was one of the reasons the office initially welcomed publication of the then general scheme of the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill. Having reviewed the subsequent Bill published earlier this year, we are satisfied that a number of our concerns have been addressed. We welcome in particular the retention in the Bill of the section 29 appeals committees. However, we have a number of outstanding concerns which I think some members of the committee share, one being the past pupil criterion issue mentioned earlier. We are of the view, for reasons that may be similar those of the committee, that the past pupil criterion should be removed as a possible derogation in cases of oversubscription.

Another of our concerns, which was also touched on earlier, relates to section 7 of the Equal Status Act. To be helpful, I would like to clarify our view on this issue. In our submission on the general scheme of the earlier Bill we recommended that section 7 of the Equal Status Act be amended to provide that in general no child should be given preferential access to publicly funded education on the basis of religion. We appreciate that there may be constitutional barriers to making this an unqualified provision due to a prospective tension between Articles 42 and 44 of the Constitution, as referenced in the committee's report on the general scheme of that Bill. We suggested in our submission that this be addressed by way of amendment of the Equal Status Act to provide that a derogation could be granted to a denominational school where the operation of that principle would give rise to a situation where the school student body would no longer reflect the school's denominational character. Like the committee, we are conscious that given the constitutional framework within which the Bill and subsequent Act will need to operate, there may be an impediment to progressing change through an amendment to the Act.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

In regard to the school and the young girl who was pregnant, the crucial issue was the religious ethos of the school and how it was maintained. The use of the inspectorate was more about ensuring the policies were in line with what they should be in that situation.

Senator Craughwell asked about the possibility of our assisting with templates. It is an issue we have examined. We are in the early stages of trying to devise a child-friendly administration scenario which may result in the development of tools that can help various administrators. We are always trying to create policies that are child-friendly and child-appropriate and will look at the issue raised by the Senator in that context.

In regard to the issue of gender recognition and the transgender child, we agree on the need for appropriate training in all schools in the context of the huge change in culture for everybody in that regard. While the number of children involved in this regard is not high, it is important that schools are prepared when this issue presents for them. Damage can be done if the appropriate training is not in place in a school at the time the issue arises. We will be encouraging that sort of support for teachers and hope they will get it.

Dr. Karen McAuley

The committee may be aware that we had the opportunity to attend a recent round-table discussion on this issue organised by the Minister for Education and Skills. The focus of the discussion was on how the Department can support schools to support transgender students who are going through transition. It is matter that I understand is being examined.

Does Dr. Muldoon have the numbers I asked for?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I apologise I do not have the accurate numbers with me but I will get back to the Deputy with them in the next week. It is unlikely I will be able to provide the full numbers from 2004 because our statistics collection system was not always that accurate, but we will provide as clear a picture as possible.

It is not my intention to distort the figures in any way, which I know Dr. Muldoon was not suggesting. The point I was making is that in my view the remit of the Office of the Ombudsman for Children is in many cases too narrow. For a parent to take up an issue with the ombudsman requires him or her to have been seriously aggrieved. Many parents who have been aggrieved never think of taking up the matter with the ombudsman such that those who have done so must have been seriously aggrieved. It is my contention that many parents do not get what they consider to be a satisfactory outcome. Grievances can be real or imagined. The point I am getting at is that the ombudsman's office is a suitable cover for the Department. In reality, the system is not working as well as it should be, although that is no reflection on Office of the Ombudsman for Children.

I thank Dr. Muldoon and the other representatives of the ombudsman's office for attending today's meeting. This is an issue we will need to monitor. I thank the witnesses for their submissions on the issues relevant to education and the ombudsman's office.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.40 p.m. until 1 p.m. on Wednesday, 4 November 2015.
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