Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Nov 2015

Special Needs Provision in Second Level Schools: SNPA, NCSE and NAPD

Chairman

I ask all those present to switch off their mobile telephones or set them to the safe or flight mode. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss special needs provision in second level education. The joint committee is examining the wider area of special needs in education and will publish a report on the matter, for which Senator Mary Moran has been appointed rapporteur. I welcome, from the Special Needs Parents' Association, SNPA, Ms Lorraine Dempsey and Ms Teresa Maher; from the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD, Mr. Clive Byrne and Mr. Paul Byrne; and from the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, Ms Mary Byrne and Mr. Sé Goulding.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of a long-standing parliamentary practice or ruling of the Chair to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

It has been decided for a number of reasons to take as read the presentations provided. The opening statements will be published on the joint committee's website after the meeting. We will proceed immediately to questions and witnesses may refer to parts of their presentations if they consider them relevant.

Deputy Jim Daly

I welcome the witnesses and apologise for the delay in starting the meeting. Special needs provision in education has been transformed in the past ten years. The perception, which I appreciate is not always correct, is that much more progress has been made at primary level than at second level. As a politician who deals with parents, I have the impression that parents find it much more difficult to access resources at second level. A common challenge they face is that the role of principal in a large school is very different from the role of principal in a small primary school. For this reason, parents feel much more secure approaching the principal of a primary school to have issues addressed. This is not always practical in the case of a large secondary school.

The joint committee is interested in hearing the views of the witnesses on two pinch points, the first of which is the transition from primary to secondary school. Continuity needs to be ensured in this regard and I ask the witnesses to outline their experiences in this regard and make any suggestions they may have for improving policy in this area. The second area is the question as to whether secondary education is lagging behind primary education in special needs provision and, if so, the reasons for this. I would also welcome suggestions on changes in policy that could be made to improve the position.

Ms Teresa Maher

Transition is a major difficulty for children and their families. Where a child falls within a family can also be either a help or hindrance. In the case of a first child, for example, because it will be the first experience of second level education, it can be much more daunting for parents than when the child is the third or fourth sibling to enter the same school. Very little work is being done on the transition from primary to secondary school for children with special needs. There is little enough work being done on the transition for mainstream students. Primary school pupils can filter into three, four or five different secondary schools when they leave sixth class. One issue that can help is the concept of an education passport where a specific selection of information would be written down and certain questions would be asked, such as how a child's needs could be addressed in certain circumstances and what circumstances would make life very difficult for the child. It would be very helpful if a standardised passport could be developed.

A one-size-fits-all approach is not the answer to special educational needs and children with difference. This makes the issue most challenging for school principals. For example, a school may have had one deaf pupil in the past and then believes it knows everything about deafness. However, the needs of the next 16 deaf or hard-of-hearing children will be totally different. Comorbidity of disabilities, an issue of which I have personal experience because my son is deaf and has Down's syndrome, becomes even more challenging because the child does not fit neatly into the mould of deaf or the mould of having Down's syndrome. It is difficult to work out whether special classes will support the child's overall needs or speak to one specific part of the child's needs. That is my starting position.

Mr. Sé Goulding

A student in primary school who transitions to post-primary school and qualifies for resource teaching support will be entitled to access that support at second level. As such, students who have access to supports at primary level will continue to have such access at second level. To illustrate this point, we had approximately 1,500 applications in this year's application cycle from the second level sector. In addition, for students who cannot access or have their needs met in a mainstream setting, we have increased the number of special classes in mainstream schools. This year, the number increased from 205 classes nationwide to 254 classes, a rise of almost 25%.

We recognise that an increasing number of students making the transition from primary to post-primary education expect to be educated in their local community and we are making every effort to ensure this can take place.

Ms Mary Byrne

In listening to the question, I note the Deputy was interested in guidance we might give on policy that would improve the situation. The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, is to publish guidelines shortly - they are at the final stage of preparation - on the transition from primary to post-primary for parents and schools. The NCSE is aware from our various consultations that there is very good practice in place on the transition of students in certain areas and in certain schools. We want to share what we know to be good practice and to make it available more widely. We know the kinds of things that make a difference, including some already mentioned by Ms Teresa Maher. We consider it to be really important that schools and parents understand the need to plan well in advance. It is not enough to do this in sixth class, as one must be thinking about this long before the child reaches that point. One must think about the kinds of supports the child will need in post-primary education, and some of these supports take time - for example, being obliged to adapt a school building. Similarly, making sure the resource supports and so on are available as soon as the child transfers also takes time. Consequently, we will be advocating for schools to plan well in advance and we intend to give guidance to parents and to schools about what information needs to be exchanged and how that information will be used in a post-primary school. We will put forward the idea of parents perhaps being given the opportunity to share what they know about how their children learn in primary school - for example, by bringing a little communication passport with them. The NCSE will raise the importance of having open days and things like that. In addition, some students with special educational needs will need more assistance in deciding on what subjects to be taught. These guidelines are in preparation and hopefully will be of some assistance in this transition.

Mr. Paul Byrne

On the transition from primary to post-primary, we recognise that this is a huge jump for all students, not just students with special educational needs. One thing I have found is that students with special educational needs probably are making the transition better than some students without those needs. I am speaking from the perspective of a practitioner who still is in school working at the job. When a student with special needs comes in, I see where the communication between the primary and secondary schools is at a much higher level to prepare for that student's arrival. We also consider it to be very important that such students, the special needs assistants who are with the students and any other people who are supporting them at primary school come to make their first visit as such students approach the end of their primary school career. We make a couple of visits during the summer in order that the student can become familiar with the school.

As for general transition from primary to secondary school, every secondary school must have a good transition programme. I was involved, in my school, with the National Behaviour Support Service, NBSS, approximately five years ago and we developed a transition programme. We also have employed an educational psychologist who works with us in making sure that programme is correct. However, it is not just about the initial transition. When the students have been in the school for a couple of weeks, we must undertake what we call a settling-in programme. We use a system of mentoring in which we use fifth-year students who are associated with a certain group of first years. We then follow that on with a big brother/big sister programme. That happens in the school in which I work, and such good practice must be spread to each school in the country. I am not really sure how to do that, but our organisation is very interested in spreading best practice like that and will do so through the conferences and seminars that we hold throughout the year.

To address the second part of the Deputy's question - that is, what are the problems we are experiencing - I could go on at length on that. However, the main thing is that for a successful special educational needs, SEN, system in the school, one must have a person who is suitably qualified in SEN to co-ordinate the work being done in the school. Without that, it will be piecemeal. Areas with which we have difficulty include students coming from primary school with unidentified mild learning disabilities. Sometimes one may find they are not identified until, quite possibly, late into second year. We carry out testing when the pupils enter school, and I note that we ceased using one test because it was not giving us the results we were expecting. It was still missing out in respect of some students. We find the best method of identification is when the teachers are teaching the students. If the teachers are aware of indicators of different special educational needs and they bring them to the SEN co-ordinator, then we can work out how best to deal with or help the students.

Another point is that sometimes for students who are identified with special educational needs the school puts in place something that will operate on a continuous basis. If matters were left at that, without assessing how effective the system is for these students, one would be doing the students a disservice. One system we use is the performance of a six-week review, whereby the allocation of resources is maintained for a six-week period before assessing whether it has worked. Sometimes, in certain subject areas - because we aim for as full integration as possible - we realise that after six weeks some students have benefited hugely in certain subject areas but may need more work in other subject areas, and we adjust the programme thereafter. Again, this is an example of good practice and it must be spread, but the key to that is that we have reduced a teacher's timetable load sufficiently to enable that teacher to co-ordinate this approach. It is a fluid approach that is extremely labour-intensive. In addition, I believe every teacher in the school should be trained in SEN. They must be able to identify and to put in place strategies to help get the best outcomes for the students concerned. Hopefully, this goes some way towards informing the joint committee on the information it seeks.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the three sets of witnesses for taking the time to appear before the committee today to discuss this issue. There are a few matters on which I seek their comments. I will direct this question at the NCSE in the main. I am interested in finding out what sort of lessons it expects to get from the new pilot model that has been established and in which I understand 20 schools are taking part. A key concern schools have expressed regarding the change proposed by the 2014 report of the working group chaired by Eamon Stack is that it may mean some schools will end up with fewer resources while other schools will have more. If the overall number remains the same but the method of distributing the resources is different, then if some gain, others may lose. Nevertheless, there will be no change of resources for the schools that are taking part in the pilot model. Consequently, I am interested in ascertaining what will be the key lessons from this pilot. I am sure some will be valuable. In addition, how can the main concern raised, which pertains to the subsequent changing of resources, be allayed by a pilot model that does not include those types of change?

While primary and secondary schools have been discussed, I seek the comments of the three sets of witnesses on the post-secondary school situation. I acknowledge that this is not necessarily something the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD, would deal with directly but, that said, there is now a massive gap there. Positive progress has been seen over the past ten or 15 years in mainstreaming children with special educational needs at primary and secondary levels. This has been a positive experience and development for those with special educational needs. At present, however, once such people turn 18 and leave the secondary school environment in which they were with their peers and were given additional assistance required to support them, in many cases no follow-on service is available that is appropriate to their needs. Many such people attend day-care facilities from the age of 18, where they are with people of all age groups. From my experience, the training and experience there is in no way representative of or similar to the type of life experience they have had through their teenage years. This is traumatic for the children concerned and is highly traumatic for their parents. There is a big gap in our system in this regard. I would be interested in hearing the witnesses' feedback on this matter.

As for the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, the NAPD in particular referred to how one might get two to three assessments for a school of 600 students. The representatives of the NAPD should flesh out this point in further detail and outline how that is having an impact. In addition, I welcome any comments witnesses may have on the capacity planning for special autism units attached to schools.

I have come across several cases where there is no capacity. There is an excessive demand but we do not seem to be trying to build it into the system and future planning, so that it is available for students when they require it.

The witnesses might also comment on part-time students. I heard of a primary school which was taking a student for 2.5 hours a day because the child had behavioural issues. How does that work and what type of supports should be put in place to enable schools to do that? Can they decide to take a student for only a small part of the day rather than full-time?

Chairman

Could members please concentrate on second level education? The chairperson designate for the National Council for Special Education will be here next week, so there will be an opportunity then to pursue those issues. Members should keep their focus on second level. If some of the questions feed into second level issues, the witnesses might briefly return to them. We do not want to get into too broad a discussion.

Senator Mary Moran

I thank everybody for coming in. It is good to see Ms Maher again. I know what a strong advocate she is and the excellent work she does. Mr. Byrne is on the same wavelength as me and I commend what he said. I have many years’ experience of teaching too. Mr. Byrne hit the nail on the head when he said that the teachers need to be suitably qualified. Since becoming a Member of the Seanad, I have been saying that we need to expand our programme for teaching children with special educational needs, SEN. I know there have been some advances but everybody in a mainstream school should be suitably qualified in SEN. In particular, those who teach in special schools should have special qualifications. My experience, anecdotal and personal, is that people who have good intentions need to be suitably qualified to teach in this area. I say that as a teacher with no SEN qualifications but as a mother. I could teach so much better when I understood the children. That is what is needed to be a very good, proactive teacher.

The reference to the transition programme with the educational psychologist is a fantastic idea. I wish to God it was available everywhere. Who paid for that educational psychologist? Did the school have to raise funds? How did it get around reducing the teacher’s timetable in respect of funding?

In County Louth, where I am from, there are nine special classes at national school level for children with special educational needs but there is only one second level school for those children in the county. There are huge anomalies. A child cannot be taken from one situation and put into another.

It came to my attention recently that a special needs assistant, SNA, in the classroom refused to take the child to the toilet or was told not to do that. Since starting this study, I have encountered many different roles for the SNA and would like clarification on the role. Is it the SNA’s job to do that? My impression was that the SNA was to look after the child’s hygiene and personal needs. The continuing professional development, CPD, courses should be rolled out everywhere. They are not compulsory but how many people take them?

Speaking again as the mother of an 18 year old, who finishes school next June, I am petrified about what will be there for him. He is not because I do not think he understands. A group has come in to talk to the children about taking them on a visit here or there. I have made inquiries about what is available, which is very limited. However, many parents, who have absolutely no idea, are sailing along. There has been no preparation for these children to leave school at the age of 18. They should be prepared as they progress through secondary school for life after they reach 18. My son turned 18 two weeks ago and suddenly went from child services to adult services. I was told he had to stop physiotherapy because that is not available in the adult services. I said he was still the same child on the Monday he was on the previous Friday but his birthday fell on the Saturday. The continuity of services is hopeless.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

In respect of the guidelines on transition due to be published, one of my bugbears with guidelines is that some schools will implement them very well and some will not. We have seen that with guidelines issued in respect of bullying and mental health problems, some schools are excellent and some are not so good. When guidelines are published, there must be some oversight of how they are implemented. The witnesses might tell me who will be responsible for that. Will it be the teachers, the principals or the boards of management, or will the NCSE have some role?

I know a child who has dyslexia, dyscalculia, dysgraphia, dyspraxia, Asperger's syndrome and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, ADHD. He is aged nine and the assistive technology he uses has totally transformed his educational potential. He feels confident and part of the class. He does a lot of his work on an iPad. There are many apps that will highlight words and read them back. One of our concerns is that when he moves to post-primary school and sits State examinations, there is no guarantee that he will get a reader or a scribe for those examinations, even though he started using assistive technology in third class, on the recommendation of the psychologist in consultation with the parents, the student, the principal and teachers in his primary school. Those parents face the dilemma that when he gets to that stage, he may not qualify for a scribe and a reader. That is a huge worry for them.

It transforms the way he is learning and improves his educational outputs before he gets to a State examination. I am sure we have all had people make representations who have been refused access to a scribe or reader, despite having one in the lead-up to a State examination. That area needs to be given more priority.

The idea of a passport system is excellent and I have advocated it for a long time. We should get students for transition in fourth and fifth classes and not just sixth classes. In larger urban areas we also have the difficulty of the choice of schools that can be accessed. The Louth case is one example but we have schools in Cork city that do not have special classrooms and the schools that have them are over-subscribed. There seems to be no planning between primary and post-primary schools. In a primary school setting, we know how many children with special educational needs are in a particular locality and so why are we not looking at the post-primary setting in the same locality. We should know that in five years there will be X amount of students coming into the post-primary system and we need to put in places the resources now rather than leaving it until a student is transitioning from sixth class, only to find that he or she cannot access the services or resources because they are not in place. That does not make sense.

Resources should follow the student and it should not be a case that when a student reaches sixth class, the resources available at primary school end for that person and he or she must go through a process of applying all over again for what will probably be the same level of resources at post-primary level. We should be moving to a system where the resources transition with the student. One of the difficulties with many children in special educational needs is that they need to build a relationship with teachers and special needs assistants but the relationship stops at the end of primary school. They have to rebuild the relationships again at post-primary level, which can be very difficult and detrimental to a child's educational outcome. These are some of the ideas we should consider.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I say to the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD, that although we may not have always sung from the same hymn sheet in a former professional life of mine, I know the work it does in preparing principals to deal with all the issues we are talking about is incredible. I have seen the agenda for the conferences, along with some of the work and training being done. I compliment the delegation on embracing the area of special educational needs.

Special educational needs is such a broad term that it covers every sort of disability under the sun. In itself, that causes a problem. In further education - my former career - we would have seen parents trying to hide the fact that their child had special educational needs coming through the system, with half a year lost by the time they get into system. This goes back to Deputy O'Brien's comments about a passport. I would almost argue that the passport should bring the special educational needs child with it, moving from one sector to the next. At least there would be a continuity and security of dealing with the same person all the time. That concerns me.

Like my colleague, Senator Moran, I am anxious to know how the educational psychologists would be financed, as it seems like a brilliant idea. It is a pity we do not have it in every school. The witnesses spoke about a special educational needs trained co-ordinator but will this be a teacher or assistant principal, for example? Does it refer to a line of promotional posts available to special educational needs operatives in a school? I am interested in how this would be done.

I know how inventive principals have to be from time to time with regard to reduced timetables. The less said about that, the better. How they manage to do things is sometimes better left unsaid. The transfer from second level to further education is of concern and there is little enough in the guidance area. It strikes me that a guidance person with the special educational needs co-ordinator is required in the step-up to further education, with all parties working together. Sadly, that does not happen in many cases. With regard to assistive technology, Mr. Byrne knows that when we see students moving from second level to higher education, the technology can take six months to catch up with the student, and by then almost an entire year is lost. We discussed readers and scribes a couple of weeks ago. A parent may be reluctant to bring information at the outset of a transition from primary to second level or from second level to further education so people may not be aware of a problem. Sometimes the issue arises so late it can be in an exam period. If that arises, we default to what is best for the student, even if that means we give a scribe and reader to somebody who really does not need it. I am interested in the view of the delegation on that.

I do not want to get into how the timetables are managed as that is an issue for the principals in schools. If they are inventive with that, I congratulate them on that. With regard to the training programmes laid on by the NAPD, we have education conferences every year for the trade unions but we know they are about industrial relations, although there is some degree of education. I would love to see an approach where all our baggage could be left outside the door of an education conference. I know the Education and Training Boards of Ireland is doing something this coming week but I would like to see something more in the area.

Senator Mary Moran

I have to step out for approximately ten minutes so could my questions be answered when I return? I apologise but I said before the start of the meeting that I would have to leave.

Chairman

That is fine. There are many questions for the witnesses.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

This is not necessarily my area but I want to ask a generalised non-political, perhaps apolitical, question. In certain cases of middle and profound intellectual disability, have we created a kind of rod for our own back by integration? I say that with all the quality in the world. I came from a background of education and as an educationalist - I came to the Seanad as one - but I wonder about this. There is a move from first to second to third level. A nephew of mine is profoundly handicapped but we know the path which is good and qualitative but very limited. The lives become a little more blurred sometimes with what Senator Moran described. There is a sameness. One day we are trying to be the same but the next we are trying to be different. Sometimes we do not know what we are trying to be. We are all trying to be a qualitative human being. I know this is a philosophical educational question but do the witnesses wonder about what we have done that could have been done better? Sometimes people are not allowed speak about integration because there is the idea that it is in some way educationally prejudicial, which I am not at all. It is a question we need to ask as the fall is huge. I do not know what people around the table think but I am asking the philosophical question.

Chairman

I had a question that fits with that. I support the integration and mainstreaming of children, moving children with special needs into mainstream education.

Anecdotally, I am aware of some people who put their children into mainstream primary school but then when it comes to second level they move them to special needs. Is that a big phenomenon? If so, what is going on? Does it signify something along the lines of what Senator O'Donnell has said?

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

I heard a saying once that will always stick with me. It was said by a parent of a special needs child. She said that the only disability that her child had was the disability that the State imposes. That is a relevant point because sometimes the lack of resources compounds the disability rather than addressing the child's ability. Perhaps that feeds into the question.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

With respect, I fully understand what Deputy O'Brien is saying but I am unsure whether those anecdotes are necessarily the answer in certain instances. It is a fair enough question. With all the resources in the world-----

Chairman

It is food for thought.

Mr. Teresa Maher

I am keen to speak to the specific question. I fully agree that we constantly have to review and ask whether we are on the right path. I am the parent of a moderate to severely IQ disabled son who has Down's syndrome and is profoundly deaf. His first language is Irish Sign Language. From our family perspective and Killian's perspective, going to mainstream secondary school was the making of his life. Killian had a chequered history through school but we ended up in Ashbourne Community School to see how it would work. Killian's first lesson on his first day in school was that he could not take out his mobile telephone. His second lesson on his first day in school was that he could not rat on the other students who took out their mobile telephones. In answering this question we should ask what education is and what it is about. Why on earth would we limit the potential, aspiration or expectations of any human being?

It is true that Killian sat his leaving certificate. He became famous and got 485,000 hits on his Facebook page because he was the first student who had Down's syndrome - a moderate intellectual disability - and who was deaf to sit and pass a State examination. He got his leaving certificate applied course. It was not by accident. It was down to remarkably hard work and belief in the people around him as well as a belief that it was not about the certificate but the process and the things he would learn for life along the way. My view on education for anyone is best represented by asking, "Why not?" and that we should see what people can get from it.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

That is my argument.

Mr. Teresa Maher

I have an idea of what we mean by equal. When Killian was going to school, he was not the same as his peers. He knew it and we knew it. It is rough. I will read out something I got from Facebook. This is what equal is: for those who are tall, they get a small box to stand on; for those who are middling, they get a middling box to stand on; and for those who are quite short, they get an incredibly large box to stand on. That is part of the idea of it not being a matter of one size fitting all. Would mainstream secondary education suit every child who is profoundly deaf with an intellectual disability and Down's syndrome? The answer is "No". However, for those whom it does suit, please leave the doors open and give them every support they need.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

That is a good answer, but I would never separate the quality of education from any child. I did not mean that. I was simply asking the question for those who might not be suitable. Perhaps it is a parental matter. I have seen where parents insist on sending the child to mainstream secondary school, which does not serve many people's needs whether they have intellectual disability. It may not serve them subject-wise, talent-wise, passion-wise or interest-wise. That was the question I was asking and Ms Maher answered it well.

Mr. Teresa Maher

I wish to put on record that parents do not make choices for their children lightly. Thanks to Google we can get far more information than 20 years ago. When a child goes to mainstream education, the parents have to work very hard. It is not a path they take lightly. Why do some children transition to special education or services subsequently? It is because the journey gets too tough. That is the reason. Parents get worn out or the system breaks. When Killian started in secondary school we never saw him doing the leaving certificate or any examination. This was not because we did not believe he was able but because we presumed the system would not support and facilitate him. He was very lucky that it did. It can work.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

What is he doing now?

Mr. Teresa Maher

He has just completed a three-year literacy course in Mater Dei Institute of Education. He graduated with the mainstream graduates last week. He has taken a year out because he has a health problem. Next year he will go to a FETAC 3 course. His passion is drama.

There is another problem when students go on, because they cannot get through the door. A student can go for an interview only to be told that the option is not suitable or that the organisation cannot support them without even asking for an assessment or report. The enrolment policies of FETAC level 5 and 6 courses are problematic. It is easier to get into college and undertake a third level degree than study a FETAC level 5 course. If someone goes to the vocational training opportunities scheme or back to education initiative there are no supports for people with special educational needs. A student cannot get an interpreter. Killian is deaf and his first language is Irish Sign Language. It is not possible to get an interpreter for the VTOS or BTEI programmes. There are many challenges and the challenges are there because no one has asked for change up to now. However, there is a cohort of students finishing secondary school now who are going to come asking for change. The transition planning needs to happen in fifth year in future.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I went to Finland some time ago. We visited a number of schools. One of the things I looked for in every school was the mixed ability class and the special education student. We visited four large second level schools but they were unable to show me one.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Why?

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

They said to us that the schools in question were new and they had not yet enrolled anyone. They said they were to be found in the school 25 km away, but that the travelling party did not have time to get there.

The Irish education system does a good job. We have to look at it. I am like Ms Maher. I want all doors open and I want the three boxes. However, when one special needs child comes into a school, it causes huge resource issues that have to be dealt with as well. We do a good job in this country in meeting those requirements overall. It may not be as good as we like-----

Mr. Clive Byrne

There is a point about Ms Maher's personal circumstances. Access to resources at second level generally comes through the National Educational Psychological Service, although the new model or pilot may change that. As students move from post-primary into further education, institutes of technology and so on, access to resources is appalling because it must be consultant-led and that is difficult. Oftentimes, by the time all the documentation has arrived, the course is almost halfway through.

Chairman

Ms Byrne, can you cover some of the other questions?

Ms Mary Byrne

I am conscious that there are many questions but I will finish on this point. I support what Ms Maher has said. We should think about the educational system in Ireland as a continuum of provision. We recognise that the majority of students should be included with their peers in mainstream education to the greatest extent possible. However, we also recognise that there are some children for whom that may not be possible for all of the day or week. Therefore, we have special classes and special schools as well. The National Council for Special Education has looked into this in other countries. Most European countries have a continuum of provision in place in some shape or other. We have both here. It should be individualised for the child.

My colleagues can address some of the other questions.

Mr. Sé Goulding

I will work through the questions and leave Senator Moran's questions until the end.

Deputy McConalogue mentioned the new model of provision of allocation of supports to schools and the pilot. Currently there are approximately 47 or 48 schools engaged in the pilot for primary and post-primary schools. The pilot is being rolled out by the Department of Education and Skills. The Minister announced it last February and it started in September.

The Deputy asked what to expect and what the students were learning. In the selection of schools, the Department ensured a full spectrum, including primary and post-primary, smaller rural schools as well as urban schools and disadvantaged schools, etc. The idea was to get a true representation of the school sector at primary and post-primary levels.

What are we expecting to learn? This is a model of allocation of supports. However, in addition we are asking schools to focus on the needs of students. Reference was made earlier to the labels attached to children. This model will not necessarily work off labels. It works by identifying the needs of the students. Then the schools plan how those needs will be met through the management and deployment of the teaching supports allocated to the schools.

The Department wanted to identify how the model is working. Schools did not lose out in the pilot process. However, it is not only about the model of allocation per se because the Department still has to see how the model will work. The Department has not yet come to its final conclusions, as far as I am aware, on how the resources will be allocated to schools but, equally, it wants to see how the schools will manage and deploy the supports in the best interests of the students concerned.

Deputy O'Brien asked about post-secondary education. The NCSE recognises that there are deficiencies once one moves beyond the post-primary sector. We conducted research in 2013 on post-school transitions and highlighted a number of issues which need to be addressed, including equity of assessment, eligibility requirements for the disability access route to education, DARE, scheme, lack of early school and career planning and a profession by school professionals that they lack specific knowledge on aspects of supports in further and higher education. It is one of the strategic priorities on which the council has focused over recent years. We are trying to review what provision is available in further and higher education. The council's main focus since it was established has been on the allocation of supports to students in a school setting. Everyone recognises now, however, that the issue moves beyond the school sector.

Deputy O'Brien also mentioned the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, and the number of assessments that would be carried out in a school. A fair few of the assessments required by schools are required in order to access resources. It is necessary to put the label on a student. Should the new model be adopted, that particular aspect of NEPS may not be as relevant. It would be relevant in assisting schools determine what strategies they would employ in meeting the needs of the student through, as Ms Byrne mentioned, the continuum-based approach.

Special autistic spectrum disorder, ASD, classes were also mentioned. I will speak in terms of the national provision. We have now moved for the first time to a situation where we have more than 1,000 special classes in mainstream primary and post-primary schools. The majority, approximately 65% or 75%, of those classes would be ASD classes. We recognise that there is a demand for them and the demand is beginning to emerge at second level as well. Over the past four to five school years, we have increased the number of special classes in post-primary mainstream schools from approximately 106 to 254. We also have plans in place to open more classes next year.

We recognise that in some cases there is a lead-in time in the establishment of such classes. The schools may have to go through a planning process and apply to the building unit of the Department of Education and Skills for access to the capital expenditure programme. We are trying to ensure places are available in schools but we recognise that there will be a lead-in time. In some cases, it may be that we are not quite clear where parents will enrol their children in second level schools. We may expect a demand in area A but it may end up in area B. We try to identify where the demand will be as early as possible. We roll out our applications process for schools generally in February or March each year so that we can have resources in place in schools well in advance of the start of the school year. The schools can then plan for how they will manage and deploy the resources allocated for the start of the school year.

A child being taken for only a part of the school day was mentioned. The lead agency dealing with the issue would probably be Tusla. We would also have concerns if that were the case. If there is a specific case, I am happy to discuss it further after the session. Obviously, we cannot comment on a specific case during this hearing. In fairness, I am aware of situations where, as part of the programme, schools have commenced with a reduced school day in order to allow the student to adapt to the school setting. If that is the context for a reduced school day, there can be a logic to it. However, no one would agree that it would be used on a permanent basis as it would exclude a child from access to education.

Deputy O'Brien also mentioned a specific case where assistive technology has helped. We agree it helps but, if assistive technology helps, it helps because the student is able to access the learning the teacher is providing. The assistive technology in itself will not be the solution. This concerns how the student and the teacher interacts in the classroom setting. Assistive technology is a tool or a means to make that happen. At junior certificate level, schools can determine themselves to what extent a student may require access to reasonable accommodation. At leaving certificate level, a report is required which will enable a student to access it but it is done on a needs basis.

I referred to special classes. Deputy O'Brien mentioned that resources should travel with students. The resources do travel with students but we have approximately 4,000 schools in the country, comprising 3,300 primary and approximately 750 post-primary schools. There is significant movement of students between those schools and there is a significant movement of students out of those schools. We resource the schools in terms of teaching and SNA supports to enable them to meet the special education and care needs of the students. There is quite an ebb and flow of resources. There is no question that the student supports will not follow them, in particular the resource teaching, but it may impact on the overall level of supports allocated to the school in question which could alter from year to year. This is why we put our allocations process in place well before the start of the school year. For the past few years, we have allocated supports to schools in mid to late May. The school knows in advance precisely what resources it will have the following September. The applications process at present is the manner in which resources are allocated. The new model, if piloted successfully and adopted, would not require an applications process because the model of allocation would be different. The allocation would be made to the school.

Chairman

Did Ms Maher wish to comment?

Ms Teresa Maher

Parents have reported that even though their child may be allocated resource hours, he or she does not access the resource hours in second level education. This is partly a result of timetabling. If a student has an exemption from Irish, he or she can be rounded up with other students who also have an exemption and they all may receive joint or group work with educational support. This is not always great. A student with a very high IQ who is doing English, mathematics and every other subject at honours level might be exempt from Irish because he or she has severe dyslexia or dyspraxia. This student is then grouped with students who may be doing foundation level work. As the allocation is made to the school and not to the child, and it takes parents a long time to get their heads around that fact. Parents often report that the allocation is used elsewhere and is not directed towards their child.

Another problem concerns equipment. A child might have an iPad or a computer in sixth class but is required to hand it back to the school. Someone else said it already but it could be six months before it is replaced. It would make a big difference if the equipment was given to the child and not the school.

A partial day really only has a place as part of a bigger plan. Nothing will be resolved where partial days are used to relieve stress on the class teacher and students in the class without being part of a bigger plan and the child rather than the system will constantly be seen as the problem.

Someone touched on the issue but children in special classes in primary schools experience inclusion on a daily basis. They are included for part of the day, be it art, PE or another subject. Students in special classes in secondary school seldom experience inclusion. They spend the full day and possibly the full five years in the special class. This is particularly obvious or easy to observe for the leaving certificate applied, LCA, class. Most schools do not include a section in the timetable during which LCA students join with mainstream students for art or some other such subject. I know it is difficult to do it because the curriculums are very different but part of being in a mainstream school is experiencing that inclusion.

Something that was not touched upon but which I have to bring up is the idea of enforced isolation and seclusion of students with special educational needs.

This is happening throughout Ireland in schools without a proper system in place. Some schools manage it very well; others do not. As parents, we believe that in order for exclusion rooms or forced isolation to be put in place there needs to be a unified system that is sanctioned by the Department of Education and Skills. That includes copious reporting and specialist training for the staff who are working with the child in isolation. Parents report that teacher training and teachers' skills are the biggest indicator of positive outcomes for their children. Nothing else replaces the quality of a teacher and their understanding of teaching.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

No computer ever will.

Ms Teresa Maher

The last thing to say is that there is one factor that is often low down in people's priorities when they look at transitioning and that is the idea of social isolation. We do not make pals by accident. It does not come naturally and easily to a lot of people. School can be a horrific place for any kid without special educational needs. Usually it is our pals and friends who get us through those six years. Systems have to be put in place in schools to support students so that they are not isolated socially. The funny thing is that all of these recommendations are included in the inclusive education framework, which is a guide for schools presented by the National Council of Special Education. We know all of this but we need to get it implemented.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

I completely agree that assistive learning technology is a tool and no more than a tool. It is a tool that, if used properly, can have significant positive impacts. I agree with Ms Maher that the quality of a teacher cannot be substituted. In the case I mentioned, the teacher involved did a training course on assistive technology, dyslexia and dyspraxia which benefited not only the child in question but every other child coming up through the school. I completely agree that it is a tool, but it is a tool that can have a positive impact. There is the issue of IEPs and the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act, but when schools invite us in and give us an educational plan for the year outlining what they will prioritise and their areas of focus, it is a collaborative approach. That is where the assistive technology is brought into it. It is brought in in conjunction and partnership with the teachers, parents and student. I agree that it is only a tool; it is not the answer. It is a tool that has the ability to transform somebody's educational experiences.

Mr. Sé Goulding

We completely agree with that. What I was trying to say in the context of it being a tool is that if the teacher is clued in it can be really valuable. To put that in context, in most cases where a student has access to such technology at primary level, it should transfer to second level. We would deal with probably 1,500 or 1,700 applications each year from the primary and post-primary sectors. The question is whether the second-level school will be in a position to obtain the equipment. Under the current scheme operated by the Department, it is an asset of the school and the school has to track its assets. That is the scheme that we operate. We provide the reports to the Department and it allocates the supports to the schools.

On reasonable accommodation, I should have said that the scheme, as the Deputy is probably aware, is administered by the State Examination Commission because it relates specifically to the junior certificate and leaving certificate examinations and it determines the regulations that are put in place on access to reasonable accommodation.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

One will also find that a lot of schools are fundraising for those iPads and laptops themselves. It is the parents' associations that are funding them. They do not become the property of the school; they become the property of the parent. In my own experience, they become the property of the student, and when they transition, the equipment goes with them. That is one way that some parent associations and schools are getting around the issue of it being a school asset.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

On the issue of ownership of assistive technology, I managed the assistive technology in my school for a number of years. We could have as many as 20 or 25 laptops to hand out to students. Technology ages very quickly - the software rushes ahead and the technology chases behind. That has always been the way. If one is lucky, one finishes up after two years with 20 laptops that are obsolete. I am interested in what Mr. Byrne has to say about managing the updating of the software when laptops or other assistive technology is returned to the school. It is a nightmare to manage and it makes no sense. If a student is given a piece of technology that will help them to learn, why can they not bring it with them? Even if they are finished their education forever, they should bring it with them and keep all their files, learning and technology. I understand the Department has to try to manage its resources but a laptop probably costs them €250 and a student has it for three or five years. Today an iPad, depending on the particular model one is working with, costs a couple of hundred euro. I am interested in what Mr. Byrne has to say on this. One cannot recycle an awful lot of this stuff. It finishes up in a storeroom for somebody to count because there is nothing else that can be done with it. It might be passed onto staff to use in their staff rooms. Keeping technology alive is nonsense. We should give it to the students and tell them that it is to assist them for the rest of their lives and that they can take it with them.

Chairman

Will Mr. Clive Byrne and Mr. Paul Byrne respond to as many of those questions as they can, including the earlier questions?

Mr. Paul Byrne

I will answer the question about what we do with assistive technology and laptops first. Normally when a student finishes up, some of the parents will come in and ask what the laptop is worth and they are prepared to pay for it. That is what we do. It is no good to any other student in the school. A laptop has a lifespan of three years. When a student has been using it for five years, it is so slow that it is of no use to anybody else. The operating system may have changed twice in that time. The operating system on a laptop can be changed once, but one should forget about trying to put a second one on it.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Yes.

Mr. Paul Byrne

The other thing we found was that we had to remove all encryption from the laptops, because when the system is updated to another one the encryption messes it up completely. With regard to using assistive technology to help SEN students, one of the things we did was to try to form links outside the school. There is a dyslexia club every Tuesday which is run mainly by primary school teachers who come in voluntarily in the evenings. We provide the IT room and any classrooms they want. They use programmes such as Touch-type Read and Spell, which is fantastic. By doing that, we are building a link. The transition from primary to secondary has been mentioned. Many of the students who come from our feeder schools are already used to the school from coming in and out and they know that the school has an awareness of the needs of SEN students. It has done an awful lot for the students. It also assures parents that they are sending students to a school that is already prepared to help them. Even with all that, we still find that sometimes a student slips through the net and it is only when there is an assessment, mainly when they are looking for some sort of assistance for SEC exams, that something is identified.

On the funding for psychologists, that came about because we had two to three NEPS assessments per year for 600 students. We also identified that there were other students who definitely needed an assessment to prepare us to help them in their education. They were falling behind but did not have behavioural problems. We work on different strategies for behavioural problems with NBSS.

This is a priority, so we used our school support fund. We worked with the psychologist and found he had an outstanding input to make on the transition of students from primary to post-primary level. I listened to him speak a fortnight ago. Basically, he slated secondary schools. Ours is one of the schools that is running a transition programme and a settling-in programme. He asked now that we have those in place what are we doing about the transition of students from second level to third year. He asked how we were preparing the students for that jump as he said that is the next thing we need to examine. That is all part of progressive planning within a school. To put this in the context of the our submission, all that is dependent on good leadership in a school. It is also dependent on the leaders having the time to do this, and their time not being taken up dealing with trivial matters that should have been dealt with, and traditionally were dealt with by middle management. The problem is that middle management has been eroded to the point where principals and deputy principals are acting as year heads, with some of them looking after book schemes, because they do not have the necessary middle management structures in place to do that. To progress the way special educational needs are looked after in schools, the middle management structures need to be put back in place. That is one of the elements we are seeking.

Senator Craughwell asked about the co-ordination of the special educational needs provision within the school and the issue of continual professional development, CPD. We have incentivised teachers to do CPD training. We had a fund in place from the board of management for any teacher who undertook CPD training. If it was one teacher, he or she would get a maximum of €1,500 towards whatever course he or she was pursing. If there were five teachers, the maximum we would pay out was €300 and the money was divided on a pro rata basis. It encouraged five of our staff to engage in high-quality CDP training. One of them zoned in on the special educational needs area and on completing his training he has given back 100-fold what we gave him towards doing his CPD training. He has put a structure in place.

Reference was made to creative timetabling. My view on timetabling is that we would use the timetable to the best effect for the students we have, to best use our resources to get the best outcomes for the students. In terms of timetabling in the school in which I work, I have provided that every teacher works to the maximum of 22 hours and every teacher has involvement with special educational needs. That is why the programme is successful. It is a major job to do that and keep it rolling over every six-week period. Sometimes issues arise in certain subject areas where a student suddenly finds that they are struggling. If we deal with that quickly and give them the help they need, six weeks is all it may take for that student to be able to keep up. We use team teaching a great deal. The value of team teaching is very high.

Chairman

What is it?

Mr. Paul Byrne

It is where one puts a second teacher into a classroom and sometimes one may even need to put in a third teacher. To take the example of the subject of mathematics, one could take three students out of a class and do work on a ratio of 1:3 with them but in the time they would have been taken out of the class and would not be following the flow of the class. Whereas if a second teacher is put into the classroom and the three students are strategically placed, that teacher can help those three students to keep up. It is a very good use of resources. It also opens the door to teachers accepting the idea of peer review. It opens the door for those teachers to show good practice and for them to communicate on what is the best way of teaching a subject. It provides a great opportunity and more schools should use the concept. I will now pass over to Mr. Clive Byrne.

Mr. Clive Byrne

I am not sure about what the Chairman wants me to do in regard to responding to Senator Moran's questions. I am conscious of the time.

Chairman

At this stage, her questions might be answered and she can read the transcript of the meeting.

Mr. Clive Byrne

She will be able to note it from the record.

Chairman

Yes.

Mr. Clive Byrne

On the pressure or pinch points to which Deputy Daly referred at primary level and moving to post-primary level, a serious issue was that the primary schools were very reluctant to hand over information to second level schools. There are 3,500 primary schools and 700 post-primary schools. The school in which Mr. Paul Byrne is based in Carrick-on-Shannon is the stand-alone school within that town and the primary schools feed into it. In many urban areas parents are chopping and changing between which second level schools their children will attend.

Deputy Daly, Senator Moran and the Chairman spoke about policy provision. The school administration package user group, which is a working group within the Department of Education and Skills, is very keen to work on post-primary and primary databases. My understanding is the work it is doing will mean that when a second level school offers a place to a particular student in primary school, the school will be able to download information on the system which will travel to the second level school. In those circumstances when that happens and the place has been offered, another second level school will be precluded from picking up information about that student. That would be worthwhile in terms of making sure that the proper information follows to the second level school in order that the needs of the student can be taken on board.

Initial teacher training is now a two-year professional master's course. In the past with the old HDip course, one might have found a minority of students doing an optional module in special needs education but there is no reason in terms of the current initial training that teachers should not be equipped to deal with the differentiation issues that arise in students with special education needs coming into classes. From a policy point of view, it would be a very strong recommendation coming from the committee that this should be a key part of the training. Our primary colleagues are much better trained in areas to do with differentiation than our second level teacher colleagues.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Yes. That is because they are in teacher training colleges.

Mr. Clive Byrne

Correct. That would makes great sense from my point of view.

Deputy McConalogue wanted more information about the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, and spoke about three assessments in a school of 500 or 600, but that is completely down to capacity. There has been significant investment in the NEPS over the last while in terms of an increase in staffing. Much of the time of the NEPS psychologist in the past was taken up with completing the necessary paperwork to enable resources of scribes and readers to be made available for leaving certificate students. Some of my colleagues made the point that discretion is given to principals in many incidents at second level, whereby they can offer particular resources. The State examinations body will give schools the autonomy that if a student requires a reader or a scribe that such resources can be offered. Often parents look for those resources at junior cycle level because they hope to be able to access those resources at leaving certificate level. This is not always guaranteed because the NEPS will be involved in applications for special resources. Regarding the point Deputy O'Brien made about students not having a certainty that a scribe or a reader would be allocated to a student with the needs he described, it would be most unusual if either the State examinations body or the school would not be in a position to ensure that this happened.

Senator Moran raised a question about the role of a special needs assistant, particularly in regard to refusal to toilet a student. Some rare incidents arise, but on the question of having special needs assistants in the system, that provision has expanded into post-primary level. Our colleagues from the NCSE may know this, but I believe there may be 15,000 or 16,000 individuals in 10,000 wholetime equivalent positions in terms of special needs assistants. Their types of duties and responsibilities are as many and as varied as the individual schools in which they work. I can recall a person applying for a special needs assistant position but not being interested in any toileting duties that might be associated with the student. If a student has such care needs, I would take it as read that the special needs assistant should be required to perform those duties for the student. In view of the particular responsibilities of special needs assistants and there being a renegotiation of their contract, their hours and their availability for work during June and other times of the year, there are particular arrangements in different schools, and as long as they are working for the best needs of the school and for the children, I believe it is worth leaving well enough alone, as Senator Craughwell might have implied earlier on the issue of timetabling.

It makes perfect sense that the assistive technology should stay with the student. The pupil passport was an initiative that the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD, and our primary colleagues Irish Primary Principals Network, IPPN, started in a particular region to ensure that appropriate information was transferred between the primary and post-primary sectors. At the time industrial relations issues were strained and the INTO forbade the principals of the primary schools to pass on any of that information. Now that issue has been worked out, the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, working with the Department will have primary passports where the appropriate information can be transferred. The NAPD president, Mr. Paul Byrne referred to the continuous professional development of principals and he was generous in his comments. We do our best to provide continuous professional development for our members in the areas of special education needs because our policy is that all schools should be inclusive and welcoming.

Part of the reason we welcomed the Stack report was the concept of a baseline allocation to all schools. If all schools have a baseline allocation from the NCSE, then no school can have the soft barriers that are often spoken about by saying that one would be better able to have one's son or daughter catered for if one were to move to a school down the road. Certainly working with the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and the research conferences and research papers they provide, we find constant supports and resources are made available. The difficulty, as my colleague said, is in regard to the current climate in school, where pressures on principals and deputy principals and everybody else in the teaching profession as a result of moratorium on posts, cutbacks and changes to pupil teacher ratios is affecting what is happening in school. There is no doubt that in terms of a policy position, the most serious policy recommendation that could come would be that somebody should be allocated a role as a senior SEN co-ordinator within a school to enable appropriate services to be put in place to meet the needs of the students in the school in the context in which they find themselves.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I wish to touch briefly on the issue of middle management, as the point made by the NAPD is vital

Chairman

Will the Senator please wait? He can comment after other speakers comment on the issues raised by Senator Moran.

Mr. Sé Goulding

I dealt with the issue of special classes at second level. Senator Moran's point is that there are not enough such classes. I pointed out the increase in numbers in the past four to five years. The role of the SNA is to meet the significant care needs arising in the school setting. Two of the traditional care needs which are often referenced are feeding and toileting and these would have been some of the primary care needs that were addressed at the start of the scheme. The number of SNAs in post-primary schools has increased in the past four to five years from around 2,000 to 2,400 so there has been a 20% increase, which would reflect the number of students transitioning through from primary to post-primary education. The numbers are increasing and the number of teachers and SNAs in the post-primary sector has increased to meet that need. We would recognise that there are soft barriers in place but in the main the majority of students are transitioning through in mainstream. As I mentioned earlier, schools are open to establishing special classes, but there are lead-in times and there are difficulties sometimes in terms of where they are needed and sometimes there are difficulties in opening the classes. However, we need to recognise that a great deal of progress has been made.

Senator Moran asked about the numbers taking continuous professional development courses. We would not have those numbers. That information is primarily available from the Special Education Support Services, SESS, and if necessary we will go back to the SESS and obtain the information and let Senator Moran have it. From our contacts with the Special Education Support Service it is very active in trying to let schools know what continuous professional development courses are available. In fairness to schools, there are issues in respect of substitution but the SESS places a heavy emphasis in trying to ensure that as many teachers as possible are upskilled in meeting the special education needs of the students enrolled.

Senator Moran also mentioned the transition to adult service. She is correct. I referenced that earlier. In many cases the students will be leaving the education sector and perhaps moving into areas other than education, such as employment or to supports provided by the HSE. That is the reason I mention that the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, has identified it as a priority in trying to see what supports are available in further and higher education for adults with special education needs.

Ms Teresa Maher

Enrolment policy is a significant barrier. There are many soft barriers to inclusion. Parents do not have confidence that the new enrolment legislation will fully address all of these aspects. Parents believe that a roadmap for the implementation of the outstanding parts of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs, EPSEN, Act 2004 is required, in particular the individualised education plans, IEPS, the independent appeals and also the implementation of the NCSE policy advice on the education of deaf and hard of hearing children in Ireland. Both of these policies have been articulated for a number of years. We need a roadmap to know if this will happen and if so, how it will happen. Parents have noted the lack of second level education places, even though there are classes at primary school level. There are a small number of special classes at primary level for specific speech and language impairment but there is no provision for this at post-primary level. Specific speech and language impairment is a lifelong and enduring condition. There is a major issue when a child has multiple and complex needs due to comorbidity, as in two equal but totally separate disabilities. They are often excluded from special schools and special classes as these have a very strict enrolment. If one is deaf and also has autism, one may not be accepted into a deaf unit and one may also not be accepted into the autism unit. These children have a very difficult path.

The parents suggest a partial exemption from Irish, that is, a person could be exempted from the oral or written section of the exam but not necessarily from both. The Ombudsman for Children looked to the application of reasonable accommodation and has suggested that there must now be more transparency and parents must be given the reason for the rejection, and then allowed to appeal. The final decision must be made much earlier.

The July provision has not been mentioned but it is a significant issue for post-primary school students. This educational support happens in July. Students finish towards the end of May and resume school at the beginning of September. They find it very difficult to get tutors because tutors are not paid until November but also because this happens in the middle of the secondary school teaching holidays. Parents are suggesting that this funding could be allocated to parents and could be used at the end of August to help the student prepare for re-entry into school in September.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

Prior to coming into the Seanad, I spent a great deal of time visiting schools all over the country. I do not know how some principals are still alive, let alone managing their schools. As well as being the principal of the school, the principal is the secretary to the board of management, is in charge of continuous professional development, and must take responsibility for up to 1,000 students. On top of all of that one will find that some principals are acting as year head for two classes. I met with a principal who told me he sat in his car at night monitoring social media for the particular class for which he was the year head because there had been a fatality in the school. He sat in his car at night until 10 p.m. because his wife could no longer take the stress that had befallen the family.

We have stripped our schools of middle management. God be with the days when there were special duties teachers and assistant and deputy principals. One is lucky to have two or three assistant principals and they are so over-worked they do not want any additional work. Schools are now running on goodwill. This is not a trade union issue; it is a real issue for principals. Mr Clive. Byrne, in particular, would know that I have been up against many a principal in my time as a trade union leader but he would also know that I think it is the loneliest post in the world. We need to put back in the middle management.

Chairman

That is a broader issue. I would have come across primary schools where half the teachers all had a special post, which I think goes too far the other way. A special post-----

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

We should be listening to the managers.

Chairman

It is not just about giving people the extra money.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I do not think that is what Mr. Byrne is looking for.

Chairman

It is a question of striking the right balance.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

The Chairman should talk to the NAPD and find out what it wants. Its members are the experts on the ground.

Chairman

There are different stakeholders in that regard, but it all forms part of the debate.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

Although this is not my area, it is in the very good hands of Ms Maher who is an extraordinary advocate because it comes from the well of herself, in that she has her own beautiful son. Senator Mary Moran was saying the same. One understands it only because one has walked in the shoes. Somebody like Ms Maher can make such a difference to other people's lives, as Senator Mary Moran pointed out. Ms Maher is a wonderful conduit for children and parents who cannot speak for themselves or are not in a position to do so. I know that there is a lot to be done. This has been one of the most interesting education committee meetings I have attended. The delegates have been so alive and involved. I congratulate Mr. Paul Byrne on what is happening in his school in Carrick-on-Shannon. The two delegates come from two ends of the spectrum and are trying to come together through Mr. Clive Byrne and his organisation. I say well done to them.

Mr. Clive Byrne

Next week two important national events will take place, one of which is part of the Stand Up! campaign for LGBT students in schools. The other is College Awareness Week, the aim of which is to promote awareness of educational opportunities post completion of compulsory education. It has to do with life-long learning, those with a disability and others. There will be over 500 events in all 26 counties, organised through schools, institutes of technology, higher education institutions and so on. The purpose is to enable students and their parents to have quality discussions about the opportunities available to individuals with special educational needs, including those who are coping well in mainstream schooling.

Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell

This has a tenuous link with what Mr. Byrne is saying, but last weekend I happened to be in the west when Robert Fisk was speaking. He had been invited to attend a book festival and the Paris tragedy had occurred. He said it was only in Ireland, in a place like Westport, that he could find such an educated audience. What he meant was that the audience members were from all walks of life and included all kinds of people - educated, non-educated and self-educated - as well as people of all ages. He said he would rarely find this in parts of England, an audience that was aware, informed, well read, interested and alive. I think it has something to do with what Mr. Byrne is talking about - our striving to be educated in a republic, into which great effort is put. The most important thing we will ever do is educate our young, middle-aged and ageing population consistently. It is linked tenuously with what Mr. Byrne is saying and how we can move and are moving forward in that way.

Chairman

I thank all of the delegates and members for their input. We will continue to look at this issue. Next week we will meet the chairperson designate of the National Council for Special Education, NCSE.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.25 p.m. until 1 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 November 2015.