Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 May 2021

School Bullying and the Impact on Mental Health: Discussion (Resumed)

Vice Chairman

The committee is meeting today for our third session on bullying and its impact on the mental health of our students. Apologies have been received from Deputies Paul Kehoe and Pádraig O'Sullivan. I remind attendees to ensure that their phones are switched off for the duration of this meeting; even if they are working remotely from their office and their phones are on silent, phones can still interfere with the sound and the broadcasting equipment. The minutes of the meeting on 11 May 2021 have been circulated to all members. Are the minutes agreed by the members? Agreed.

The second item on the agenda is to meet with teachers and students unions on the topic of school bullying and the impact on mental health. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Matthew Ryan, welfare officer with the Irish Second-Level Students' Union, ISSU; Ms Anne Piggott, president of the Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland, ASTI; Mr. David O'Sullivan, assistant general secretary of Irish National Teachers' Organisation, INTO; and, Mr. David Duffy, education and research officer of the Teachers' Union of Ireland, TUI.

Witnesses are here today to brief the committee on school bullying and its impact on mental health. The format of the meeting is that I will invite Mr. Ryan to make an opening statement, then Ms Piggott, followed by Mr. O'Sullivan and then, finally, Mr. Duffy. Statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a six-minute slot in which they can ask questions and the witnesses can respond. I ask members to stick rigidly to the six minutes.

Before we begin, I remind members of the longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. As witnesses are giving evidence remotely from outside of the parliamentary precincts, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness who is physically present does. Witnesses have already been advised that they may think it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. They are reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. I ask members, when it is their turn to speak, to confirm that they are in the precincts of Leinster House.

I call on Mr. Ryan to make his opening statement, followed by the other witnesses, as outlined. Witnesses have three minutes each, and I would appreciate if they could respect the three minutes.

Mr. Matthew Ryan

Go raibh maith agaibh, a Chathaoirligh and members of the committee, for the opportunity to speak before you today. I am the welfare officer of the Irish Second-Level Students’ Union, ISSU. I want to express my views on how we can implement long-lasting solutions, as opposed to incremental quick fixes to bullying. One thing that has always been apparent is that with issues like bullying, we often try to work from the top down and eradicate the issue as a whole. Instead, I want to highlight the importance of the straightforward and pragmatic actions that, when combined, could yield a much more practical and useful solution.

We can begin to build the groundwork of a more accepting and inclusive school culture if we tackle issues such as our relationships and sexuality education, RSE, and social, personal and health, SPHE, curriculums, investigate and improve our referral system, look to how we can fully support our staff and pastoral care teams and implement a more holistic and realistic approach to education.

A lack of education can lead to animosity, so we need to teach our students as soon as they enter education about real world issues and use practical, up-to-date language. Language is vitally important when it comes to tackling bullying. The use of passive slurs and derogatory language in schools normalises the victimisation of certain groups. The passing of a simple, snide remark can often snowball into full-on bullying. We need an education system that is constantly adapting and evolving to the vernacular and vocabulary of each generation, something that is constantly changing.

It is also the belief that no one becomes a bully for no reason. A reform, not reprimand, approach is needed. This aims to help students who have bullied to learn and grow personally and help them in becoming more open and accepting of others. We need to help both victims and perpetrators in this scenario. We all have a duty to do everything possible in our power to help re-educate students who have bullied, so that they do not repeat this behaviour. Where do we start? The role of the parent or guardian in this process cannot be understated. It is crucial that we upskill parents to help them become the key parties that they can be in tackling bullying. It is also vital that we look at the mental health aspect of this. Being the victim of bullying can manifest itself as intrusive or self-destructive thoughts. It can cause a young person's belief in themselves to waiver. They have thoughts of “Why me?”, “What did I do?” and “What is wrong with me?” We need to support these students and equip them with the proper coping mechanisms they need.

Private psychotherapists can be expensive and this issue is particularly prevalent among young people from more disadvantaged backgrounds. I ask the committee to look into how we can better equip our pastoral care teams to deal with serious cases of bullying. I ask that all educational stakeholders and the National Educational Psychology Service, NEPS, are engaged in this process. I would also urge the committee to look at the mental health funding available. In 2021, only €50 million was allocated to mental health services.

This needs to improve. There is a dire need for greater funding, but also for better management of how and where it is spent. It is sometimes the case that the default is the typical posters or awareness campaigns but the truth is that these are often not enough. I ask that the committee work to aid the establishment of student councils across the country as they provide invaluable insight to schools when they are drafting or reviewing their anti-bullying policies.

I wish to finish with the message that we need to have strong and solid foundations before we can build anything on them. We need to look at the way we educate as a whole. The tangible solutions I have mentioned and those outlined in our written submission are but a start. I welcome any and all questions the committee may have. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Vice Chairman

I now move to Ms Piggott, president of the ASTI. She is very welcome.

Ms Ann Piggott

"Easy access to the internet on her phone meant that she was exposed to potentially upsetting communications 24 hours a day; and she was able to return to, and re-read, the upsetting messages at a later time, and therefore appears to have continued to ruminate about them." This extract is from a coroner’s report in America about a girl who was described in a newspaper as "a beautiful sensitive and capable teenager". I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak about bullying, which is potentially devastating for its victims and can have fatal consequences.

Many definitions of bullying abound. The Department of Education defines it as "unwanted negative behaviour, verbal, psychological, or physical, conducted by an individual or group against another person (or persons) which is repeated over time". Clinical definitions do not capture the impact of the relentless, emotional and painful torture caused by bullying, or the loss of self-esteem, hindered opportunities, feelings of uselessness and lifelong implications of persecuting behaviour. This often occurs where there is a power imbalance.

The stereotype of the schoolyard bully taking lunch money fails to encompass the wider reality. Bullies are often charismatic and charming. They please and impress superiors and demand the respect of others for whom they show little regard. Definitions often omit how subtle bullying can be. It is often the case that the victim wonders if they imagined or even deserved it. Bystanders witnessing events stay quiet out of fear or perhaps for personal gain.

Cyberbullying is a significant concern. It is intrusive and constantly on. Digital devices delve into worlds where just one abusive comment or a displayed photograph may always exist to the victim's utter dismay. Perpetrators can be anonymous and the distress of the sufferer may be unknown to anyone. Victims are often fearful of further reprisals or may not want others to know about their embarrassing online abuse. They can lose concentration and become withdrawn, isolated and depressed.

Schools have a duty of care and, although they are required to have policies and procedures, it is difficult to know who is being targeted and how much victimisation occurs, particularly with regard to cyberbullying. Several improvements need to be made in order to control intimidation in school environments. Measures must include more guidance counsellors, restoration of middle management positions, prioritisation of well-being, relevant training for teachers and smaller classes. A reduction in work overload would allow time for extra-curricular activities and room to foster school connectivity.

Vice Chairman

I thank Ms Piggott. I invite Mr. O'Sullivan of the INTO to address the committee.

Mr. David O'Sullivan

I thank the committee for the opportunity to be here today. The INTO recognises the impact that school bullying can have on the mental health of pupils and teachers and is committed to tackling all forms of bullying. We endeavour to provide as much support and assistance as possible to our members and schools.

When members think back to their own school days, they may remember the culture and classroom environment that predominantly prevailed, where there was much focus and emphasis on achievement. The sands have shifted and are continuing to shift to a greater focus and emphasis on pupil well-being. Nowadays, there are a range of policies, procedures, practices and strategies in schools to promote pupil well-being. Fostering well-being is one of the competencies that will underpin a revised primary school curriculum currently being prepared by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. Although we are on the right track, there is still some way to go in terms of supporting pupil well-being in schools. Teacher professional development and learning programmes should include a dimension on well-being.

Bullying can be overt or subtle and can be racial, homophobic, disability-related or based on any form of difference. Bullying, regardless of form or type, can have an impact on mental health. As regards LGBT+ bullying, in February 2020 the INTO published the results of a survey carried out with teachers. The survey found that the majority of respondents reported that they had not received any training in how to educate about and prevent homophobic or transphobic bullying and a large cohort stated that they would like training in this area. We recommend that there is a need for the updating of the anti-bullying procedures for schools, as well as for professional development and strategies and supports to address identity-based bullying and cyberbullying.

Teachers have a strong sense of responsibility towards their pupils. However, they are not psychologists or psychiatrists. Psychological, socio-emotional and mental health supports are practically non-existent for primary pupils. Both the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, and Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services, CAMHS, are understaffed and should be expanded. The INTO recommends that schools should have counsellors and therapists available to pupils who require such interventions and supports when they have experienced bullying or engaged in bullying behaviours. Such supports would go a long way in having a positive impact on mental health.

Schools are also places of employment. Teachers are often subject to inappropriate behaviour. Although not often named, but identifiable in some cases, teachers are often subject to negative comments and untoward behaviour from parents on social media platforms. The importance of an inclusive school environment for all members of the school community cannot be overstated. The INTO is concerned that teachers who identify as LGBT+ may not always feel accepted or represented in their workplaces. That has to change. We recommend that teachers are provided with comprehensive professional development, training and support in LGBT+ inclusion and visibility within the school environment. All teachers, irrespective of their sexual orientation, race or disability, must be treated with dignity and respect in their workplaces.

In conclusion, as there must be a shared responsibility to tackle bullying in society, this should also be the case in schools. School leaders and principal teachers must be adequately supported through a further restoration of middle management posts. This is vital in order to create and-or maintain a culture of inclusion and acceptance. Go raibh maith agaibh as an gcuireadh bheith anseo agus is féidir liom ceisteanna a thógáil.

Vice Chairman

The final witness is Mr. David Duffy, education and research officer of the TUI.

Mr. David Duffy

The TUI thanks the Chair and the committee for the opportunity to make this opening statement. I will be pleased to answer any questions thereafter. Bullying is a damaging experience for students and the wider school community. The TUI and its members are committed to the prevention and elimination of bullying in schools and are proactively engaging with school communities to this end. Research points to the fact that Irish children and students are significantly less likely to encounter chronic bullying than the OECD average. A recent survey found that bullying of young people has halved in the past 20 years and is now significantly lower than the international average.

While certainly a cause for optimism, these facts must be viewed in the context of the emergence of online bullying. Online bullying can be more harmful than traditional forms of bullying. It is relentless, has the potential to reach a large audience and is nameless and faceless. It often encourages others to participate in commentary which means that, even when very little of it is published, it can have far-reaching consequences for the victims.

The use of online platforms has also allowed the bullying of school staff to become a problem. Staff are entitled to dignity and safety in their workplace. School leaders and teachers are sometimes the subject of derogatory and even defamatory comment on social media sites. They are easy targets. Online bullying is particularly harmful and, in extreme cases, can lead to teachers leaving the profession, which will further exacerbate the teacher supply problem. To protect staff and the whole school community, clear guidelines and processes for investigation are essential in order to deal with the perpetrators.

The TUI is concerned that post Covid there may be a rise in certain types of bullying in schools. Covid-19 has exacerbated and highlighted socio-economic and educational disadvantage. In light of the in-school teaching time that has already been lost, it would be horrendous if a fear of bullying were to cause students to refuse to return to school. Concerns have been raised that teachers may become the victims of bullying as a result of their engagement in the accredited grades process.

Bullying does not just occur in schools. It is often a matter for parents and communities to address and occasionally, in very severe incidents, for the Garda to investigate. Schools cannot be held accountable for matters that arise outside of their control. Schools are doing what they can to minimise bullying when students are in school and when they are informed of the problem.

The TUI makes the following recommendations to the committee.

It is essential that guidance allocation, middle management posts and pastoral care supports to schools be dramatically increased. While recent changes in middle management are a small step in supporting students in difficulty, a much larger move in terms of full restoration is required. Significant investment is needed in out-of-school supports such as CAMHS and NEPS if the schools are to adequately support the affected students, both victims and perpetrators. Such supports are currently inadequate or lacking. Addressing the issue of bullying requires a whole-school partnership approach of students, parents and school staff. The provision of home school community liaison officers, HSCLOs, in every school in this context would be invaluable. Appropriate training, resources and time need to be put in place for the entire school community, including the board of management. Staff need time to engage in continuous professional development. The anti-bullying procedures for primary and post-primary schools, which were published in 2013, should be updated.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

The past couple of weeks during which we have been examining this issue have been fascinating but upsetting and very worrying. There is no doubt but that the impact of bullying on so many families and individuals, children and adults, can be really profound. It is appropriate that we reflect here that a lot of discussion has concerned the bullying of children and rightly so, but we also need to remember that schools are workplaces and employers have a responsibility to support their staff when instances of bullying emerge and protect them from bullying. While schools and school staff, including SNAs, have a very significant role to play, we cannot expect our schools and our teachers to solve all the problems relating to this issue. It is vital that schools have access to relevant professionals, such as psychologists, when they are needed.

I will not get a response from all four witnesses in the limited time available to me so I might come back to the INTO at the end if I get in again. My first question is for Mr. Ryan. Regarding the submission from the ISSU, there is a fair bit of comment on the reform of relationships and sexuality education, RSE, which has been in the news a lot to the effect that it is outdated and inconsistent. Does Mr. Ryan have any views on how it can be improved? Is it his experience that it in some way contributes to the "othering" of students or people feeling excluded?

The ASTI and the TUI have raised very interesting points as proposals we can address. Could we get further comment from the witnesses from both unions? HSCLOs play such an important role in ensuring that not every crisis in a school ends up on the principal's desk. They can address some of these issues and build relationships. Could the witnesses comment on the benefits of that? The proposal that there be a liaison officer within the major social media platforms to work with schools is very interesting because these issues constantly evolve. Obviously, we must all ensure that we are as up-to-date as possible but it is a really interesting proposal and I would appreciate some elaboration on it.

Mr. Matthew Ryan

RSE has been in the spotlight lately. From our experience, if students receive RSE at all, it is very inconsistent regarding when and how they receive it. It is very heteronormative and exclusive. It focuses on the average white straight couple and does not include anything about intimacy or maintaining relationships. A lot of students would say that they learn more about sexuality and sexuality education from the biology course than from the RSE course. There is a big fear of language and the stigmatisation around it in RSE. It is difficult for a teacher to stand up in front of a class of 30 students and talk about pleasure, orgasms and things like that without there being that natural fear of what they might hear back. However, we need to remember that if we are not giving students this adequate RSE, every year, a massive cohort of students graduate from sixth year and move on to third level without any education in this area. The only education they have received regarding RSE is from third party sources and the Internet, which oftentimes can be very inconsistent and dangerous. So the lack of an RSE curriculum leads to a lack of understanding, which leads to animosity and a lack of inclusion. It leads to a very negative school environment so I would encourage us engaging with the NCCA to reform the RSE curriculum, roll it out and get it working properly so that we can educate students on what they need to know because they are learning it themselves. The age of consent is 17 but students are becoming sexually active long before that and are learning these things as they go by trial and error, which is a dangerous precedent to be setting for young people. We need to listen to young people on that issue and hear what they want as opposed to telling them "this is what you need from an RSE curriculum". It is about them saying "well this is what we actually would benefit from in an RSE curriculum".

Vice Chairman

That was top class. Deputy Ó Laoghaire said he had a question-----

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Yes - my question was directed at Mr. Duffy and Ms Piggott.

Mr. David Duffy

There are a few strands to the Deputy's question. There is a need for a HSCLO in every school. At the moment, HSCLOs are only available in DEIS schools. We are looking at around 30% of all schools in the country but bullying is not restricted to any one sector or individual school. We must deal with it across the system so there needs to be a HSCLO for that vital liaison between, as Mr. Ryan mentioned, the home and the school. As the Deputy noted, this is not just an issue where a school, home or community can fix a problem. It is across the entire system, so HSCLOs play a vital role in that.

Ms Piggott mentioned the importance of guidance. There has been an increase in guidance support over the past few years, which needs to be recognised, but we do not have the ex-quota guidance support we had previously. I note the second topic with which we are dealing today is the impact on mental health. Guidance counsellors in post-primary schools are the main line of defence in respect of this. Year heads are the very first line of defence in post-primary schools. Again, as Ms Piggott mentioned, we have seen a significant cut in middle management posts of the order of almost 50%. There has been some alleviation over recent years, including one quite recently, but we are still a very long way off where we were ten years ago. They are often the ones who will see a student is having difficulties.

Ms Ann Piggott

I agree that there should be links between home and school and then at least we would see from every angle how troubled a student may or may not be. I also think we should have links with corporate companies involved with online media platforms. At least then they could be told to take down material. The Deputy also mentioned adult bullying in schools, which is very serious. That needs further investigation following on from when the committee has finished looking at the bullying of children and how they feel and cope.

Vice Chairman

That is a succinct answer.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I thank Mr. Ryan for his contribution. He mentioned parents. I was curious about that as I feel it is more a matter for schools. How do we upskill parents and get them more involved? I have a couple of ideas but I would like to hear Mr. Ryan's views.

I am a bit surprised regarding teachers' unions. Over the past number of weeks with the contributions to the debate on bullying we have heard, what has emerged is how important the school environment is. Not one of the groups here has tackled that. I was also surprised by Mr. Duffy's statistics and the optimism he indicated when it comes to bullying when everything we have heard over the past year has shown that over one in three students have suffered from bullying.

Perhaps cyberbullying was not included in the statistics. I am very surprised by them.

I understand that teachers also suffer from bullying but the focus here is on children who take their own lives due to bullying. In the past few months, the committee has heard about terrible cases of severe bullying.

Mr. O'Sullivan from the INTO indicated there is no training for teachers in primary and post-primary schools. In that regard, a number of groups have not been mentioned, including Dublin City University's anti-bullying centre, the FUSE programme, which has been rolled out, and SOAR, which does early intervention in transition year. Why was training not part of the presentations? How important is it? There is training available. The tacklebullying,ie and webwise.ie websites are available and there is information available to teachers and parents. I am a little annoyed to be honest.

I ask each of the representatives from the teaching unions to give an example of a positive school environment. I understand we need more training for career guidance. There has been investment in NEPS. What is a positive school environment versus one that does not embrace a culture of engaging with bullying, not just an anti-bullying policy?

Dr. David Duffy

I thank the Senator for her questions. One of the first points I made was that bullying is a damaging experience for students and the wider school community. We certainly believe it a very serious problem.

The Senator referred to the statistics. People are quite surprised that the statistics that I use are from UNICEF, the OECD and a study by Rawdon et al. I am more than happy to give the Senator more details on that study later. I cited international statistics from organisations like UNICEF and the OECD.

On the role of schools, schools definitely have a significant role to play but that is not say others do not also have a role. Of course, bullying is a serious issue.

If I understood the Senator correctly, she asked about the school climate. I believe the vast majority of schools have a very positive climate but that is not to say that individual problems cannot arise. Sometimes they can be quite serious. I am certainly not minimising the issue. There are supports that are essential to schools, for example, NEPS and CAMHS, which are beyond the control of schools.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I asked the witnesses to give an example. What is the ideal way to handle an instance of bullying?

Mr. David O'Sullivan

I thank the Senator for her questions. On training, while I am aware of the FUSE programme provided by DCU and other initiatives such as Webwise, I was drawing the attention of the committee to a national programme of training. There is no national central policy on what training should in place. Other agencies have devised programmes but we are seeking a national programme for training.

There is a shared responsibility. We all have the same shared objective in trying to address school bullying. Schools take preventative measures by having awareness weeks and posters. They create a culture of openness so that parents can come into schools to address any issues and concerns. It is important that parents do that sooner rather than later in order that schools can invoke their anti-bullying policies. When issues arise, teachers are well versed in engaging in restorative practice.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I very much appreciate that this is not solely the responsibility of schools and other stakeholders are involved. Will Mr. O'Sullivan give an example of the measures a school will take when there is an instance of bullying?

Mr. David O'Sullivan

It would depend on the nature of the bullying incident. It is all about the proportionality and, again, it is about mending relationships. Schools have their anti-bullying policies that they will invoke. They will engage with the parties and consider strategies because it is important that all relationships are mended. That is what teachers spend some of their time doing. It is the person who has been bullied and the perpetrator. These pupils must share a classroom, sometimes in groups of 30. Teachers invest their quality time in restorative practice and mending those relationships. There are problems and sometimes it can be a little more challenging to mend relationships but teachers are wholly committed to having relationships restored.

Vice Chairman

We have run over time but I will let Ms Piggott respond and ensure she gets in earlier the next time. I ask her to give an example, as requested by Senator Dolan.

Ms Ann Piggott

Sometimes the examples are very hard to see. If it is physical, for example, somebody has a black eye or students are caught fighting, that is easy to deal with because it is visible. However, there are other very subtle cases going on and if somebody does not speak up, the teacher will not know. Teachers must make sure they have the best possible relationship with their students so they feel they can talk to their teachers. Maybe a school, through the student council, could go through the policy on bullying. Every student council member should then go back to their class and inform their classmates. We need to create a culture whereby students know it is real if it is happening and they can talk. According to a report issued earlier this week by the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, sometimes young people just need one good adult. If every student could have one good adult, that would be a huge achievement for us.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I appreciate the contributions. This is a very serious topic and I thank the witnesses for their help.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I confirm that I am in Leinster House. I thank the witnesses for attending before the committee this afternoon.

I will start by asking Ms Piggott and Mr. Duffy a question. I am conscious that society in general and politicians in particular very frequently ask teachers to solve issues concerning society, whether it be issues concerning sexual development, sexual education or issues pertaining to consent. Bullying is one of those issues as well. Describing bullying as school bullying narrows it down because it is an issue that extends much beyond schools. Rather than putting all responsibility on teachers, what responsibility to tackle bullying should be placed on social media companies or other actors outside teachers?

Ms Ann Piggott

To begin with, social media companies should monitor their sites. Some bullying instances are obvious because they involve really bad or negative comments that encourage others to join in and jeer at people. There could be a large number of comments. I am sure politicians get these readily. Even adults find it hard to cope with such comments, so it must be devastating for children of 13 or 14 years. As soon as social media companies see such comments, they should remove or take them down or be found responsible and fined. Legislation should be in place to prohibit this, particularly with regard to young people.

In terms of wider society, parents could get involved in helping us. Local businesses that are located close to schools might observe things that we do not see. There is also a major role to be played by the inspectorate. Whole-school evaluations should focus on bullying. Likewise, there should even be special inspections that focus solely on bullying, survey and interview students and work from there. That is how we can go forward.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I ask Mr. Duffy the same question. What is the general response of parents when it is brought to their attention that their child has been involved in bullying? Is there a universal response or is there a lack of concern on the part of parents in general?

Dr. David Duffy

It is a very complex area. An awful lot of organisations have responsibility - the social media companies, schools, parents and the general community. Bullying, particularly cyberbullying, is not restricted by time or place so we all have a responsibility to make sure we prevent it as much as we possibly can and deal with it as well as we can when it does happen.

On where bullying can take place, an interesting report during lockdown - in February last - indicated that the incidence of cyberbullying rose dramatically when the schools were closed. That is not to say that schools do not have cases to deal with as well. It is interesting that bullying takes place in many different contexts. Schools have to deal with bullying that happens within their control and jurisdiction when they become aware of it.

I will address the question on the conversation with parents where possibly a child may be suspected of engaging in bullying. I can say from personal experience that it is an incredibly difficult conversation. It is important to remember that the research suggests the vast majority of people who engage in bullying are themselves victims of bullying in a different context. That has to be borne in mind. It can be a difficult conversation. Naturally, parents will be deeply concerned if there is a fear around that of if a child is suspected of any misconduct in the school, whether it is bullying or anything else. Understandably, the parents are going to be worried and can be distressed. There needs to be support and understanding all round. That is why guidance counsellors, home school liaison officers and year heads are important in mediating and in showing everyone that we all have responsibility.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

My question is for Mr. O'Sullivan. We sometimes forget that many teachers are young people themselves. Often they are young people in their early 20s. I am interested to hear about the incidence of bullying of teachers. Is that an ongoing problem in schools? Is it an infrequent occurrence? If it is a problem, how is it dealt with?

Mr. David O'Sullivan

First, we have to recognise that schools create a culture. Ideally, schools have open engagement whereby if parents have any issues or concerns they are encouraged to address them with the school. There have been incidents of commentary online relating to teachers. Where that has arisen our members generally raise the matter with the school management, who would generally tend to engage with the parents in question, set out what the policy is and explain that any issues or concerns should be addressed directly to the school, because that is the appropriate platform on which issues should be addressed.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

My six minutes are up.

Vice Chairman

Thank you, Deputy O'Callaghan. You are spot-on timewise. We will move on to Senator Rónán Mullen.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I welcome all our speakers and thank them for their submissions, which I read carefully. As I read through them I found things that I strongly endorse as well as some things with which I disagree with equal enthusiasm. It is probably the case that we need more than six minutes to hear ourselves out fully.

What struck me most was that I strongly endorse the need to focus more on the issue of teenage suicide. We all have to be careful how we speak about the topic. Importantly, the Teachers' Union of Ireland draws the link between the unacceptable waiting list for a first appointment with the HSE child and adolescent mental health services and the fact that Ireland has the fourth highest incidence of teenage suicide in the European Union.

Reference was made to a staffing problem. Of all the things I have seen I would put that close to the top, if not at the top. It is a remarkable statement around our society that we have such a major social threat but that we are so behind in resourcing the problem.

I note what the Irish Second-Level Students' Union said. The union talked rightly about the strong referral system that is imperative to lower rates of self-harm, suicidal ideation and suicide among students. That is important and I am keen to join the ISSU in putting the stress on that.

Where I disagree with several of the submissions is in the attempt to draw a causal link between relationship and sexuality education as it now stands where it does not meet the aspirations of some students, parents or representative groups and the problem of bullying. I believe we need to think that out more carefully.

From my point of view the Christian gospel proposes a message of unconditional love. However, in all areas of life, including, but not confined to sexuality, there is often a challenge as well. The history of Irish education has provided much of the inspiration and rationalisation of so much that we take for granted as being necessary for an education system, especially in the whole area of inclusion. One thinks of the outreach in the developing world and outreach to people with disabilities.

I come from a generation whereby I witnessed children with intellectual disabilities being beaten in my school, so I am not claiming anything. We have come a long way in many areas. Yet, as long as there are free and thinking people in our society the ethics around human sexuality will be contested. There are people who have what one might call a traditional Christian view - even non-believers may have a traditional view around human sexuality - and who propose that in education respectfully with the support of parents. They do not simply see sexuality in recreational terms. They see it in terms of human beings honouring each other. It seems that those people are among the greatest allies in the fight against bullying. There is a real danger of demonising them if we portray their ideas and values as somehow causative of bullying. Far more work needs to be done there and I would invite comments from the representatives present on that.

The last thing I would invite comments on from the representatives is something I have mentioned to various contributors in recent weeks. Are we talking enough about building resilience among students in respect of bullying? I have heard much about the need to promote upstanding and about getting people to stand up when they witness or encounter bullying against a third party, and I am all for that. I believe in building resilience in helping young people to understand what is happening to them and not to let it cripple them, as it were, and to help them to be strong enough to push back against that. That is an important area of endeavour but it is not being given enough attention by those who are working and speaking about combatting bullying. I have used up four minutes. I would be delighted to hear what the representatives have to say and to continue this conversation at some other point.

Vice Chairman

I will call on Mr. Ryan first.

Mr. Matthew Ryan

I will touch on the point about relationship and sexuality education. I disagree with the point made because there are major links between the RSE course and the way students interact with each other. I will read out some quotations from a survey I conducted within our union before drafting my policy. These are all anonymous quotations.

I often felt left out when I was younger, especially when I came out. People would ask inappropriate questions and harass me and my girlfriend. People tried to grab her other hand while we held hands and asked if we had kissed or had had sex. We were 13.

This happens if we are not educating our students with adequate RSE. That is the realistic view of students. It is very out of touch with students to say that sex is a big huge thing. It is not anymore these days with young people. It is a very different thing from what it was 30 years ago. We need to educate young people on the issue as opposed to telling them what we think was right 30 years ago, because it is a completely different timeframe. If I have the time I will read out the second quote:

People would make inappropriate comments and harass me about being gay. Either I was being made fun of or ignored, even before I came out. In first year, the boys thought it was funny to make weird comments to all the girls by talking about condoms and making lewd suggestions. One boy even rubbed his crotch on the corners of the girls' tables asking if they wanted to use his ruler. Another held up a drill piece asking if they wanted it up their fannies. This happened repeatedly.

That only stems from a lack of education. A remark like that is only made through a lack of education and ignorance. We need to educate our young people from the age of 13, because we know that is how young this is happening. I strongly disagree that there are no links between the RSE curriculum and bullying.

Ms Ann Piggott

Some people are vulnerable and more likely to be targeted. Anyone can be bullied at any point for any particular reason. A person may be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A person may be jealous or maybe someone got 100% in a test. I do not believe we can narrow it to any one reason but we should keep talking about it and make people aware that it is happening. We need to highlight that people have to talk to others. That is where we have to go in future.

Mr. David O'Sullivan

I will come back to Senator Mullen's point on building resilience. The inclusion of well-being on the curriculum is welcome. It should be underpinned by supports, training and resources for these key skills. If interactions occur, then pupils can deal with them through certain skills. This can help to build capacity in pupils to deal with incidental matters as they arise as well.

Dr. David Duffy

My thanks to the Senator for the reference to the TUI submission. Suicide and suicidal ideation are incredibly serious.

NEPS and CAMHS are agencies on which schools rely very heavily if a student is in a crisis. A report published in 2018 by an Oireachtas committee found that NEPS was significantly understaffed, while a study published by the Department of Education in 2020 found referrals to CAMHS had risen by more than 50% in seven years. The committee needs to bear in mind that student numbers will rise dramatically in post-primary schools in the coming years. When there is a crisis, schools need to be able to rely on these services. I need to make clear that I am not criticising the staff involved in those services, who are dealing with caseloads that are simply unmanageable.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank all of our guests. I enjoyed listening to their perspectives, as always. I will first address the issue of RSE, on which I fundamentally disagree with Senator Mullen. People need to see their families and their lives reflected in the kind of education they get and they need to feel comfortable in their own skin to be resilient and show compassion and empathy for others. That is essential. I welcome any comments in that regard because a point that has not been addressed is that of empathy and how linked it is to whether people go on to bully. Having empathy means you have to see other people and respect them equally. Mr. Ryan may have some perspectives on that.

One of the issues is the patronage system we have. It means people do not always have a choice and their religion or lack of religion is not always reflected in the school they attend. That means we need a broader kind of education in terms of sex education and relationship education that caters for everybody across all schools. Alternatively, we need to dismantle the patronage system, or do both. In the immediate term, RSE certainly needs to be brought in in a way that reflects the whole of society in every school.

On the bystander point that was raised, and particularly in the context of the point of view of teachers and young people, it was brought up at the committee meeting before last that the issue of the bystander can be quite challenging. It is difficult to put people in the position of always having to be the ones to take action. Are we putting too much on young people to try to sort out problems when the problems are structural? I have not heard anything from the teachers' unions in particular around whether there are structures within education that could change and could be easier to implement before it gets to the point where there may be a need to call in other people. I refer to structures with which teachers would feel comfortable, such as mentoring and having the student voice involved in coming up with the decisions around how schools function for everybody while showing equal respect for adults and young people.

Vice Chairman

Are the Senator's remarks directed to all four witnesses?

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Yes; I addressed my deep philosophical points to all four witnesses.

Mr. Matthew Ryan

I will touch briefly on the first point raised by the Senator because I do not want the whole conversation around bullying to become about RSE. It is crucially important we have an unbiased RSE curriculum and an unbiased curriculum in general. As I stated, the current RSE curriculum is based around the stereotypical, heteronormative white couple and that is simply not reflective of what students are. If students cannot see themselves in a curriculum, they will not engage with it. If they see people who are nothing like them, they will not engage with that because it is not them.

On the point in respect of bystanders, I point out how important it is to start with the grassroots and the small changes we can make. In a group of six people, for example, there may be one person who could be considered a bully, while the other five may be complete bystanders who have never engaged and would never engage in bullying. However, when their friend decides to bully another person, it is very difficult for them to stand up against their friend for fear of retaliation or being seen as lesser by that person. It is very important to acknowledge in the context of the bystander and standing up that it is very difficult because bullying often happens purposefully out of sight, such as when a person walks into a bathroom and tries to get to the stalls but is slammed on the way in or comments are made or anti-Semitic comments are written on the walls of the bathroom. It is very difficult to escape it but it is also very difficult to ask teachers to intervene if that is happening in bathrooms and such places. That is why it comes back down to education and working on the smaller level to stop it at the grassroots.

Vice Chairman

I will cut Mr. Ryan off there because I am conscious we are going way over time. I ask Ms Piggott, to be followed by Mr. O'Sullivan and Mr. Duffy, for a very brief response to Senator O'Reilly.

Ms Ann Piggott

I am interested in the Senator's remarks about empathy because bullies have no empathy whatsoever and sometimes show no remorse either. It is very important that bystanders speak out and stand up, but the bystander may not even see the bullying. For example, if a student who had an incident in the bathroom with a bully meets the perpetrator on the corridor the next day, the perpetrator might sneer at the victim. A friend who sees that may not realise there is anything in it or realise the seriousness of the situation. Some schools have mentoring programmes through which they match sixth years with first years, which helps the first years to settle. It is a very good idea and could be used to progress this idea.

Mr. David O'Sullivan

Obviously there is the Stay Safe programme in primary schools which addresses the topic of bullying and the issue of the bystander in the context of encouraging where issues arise between pupils and telling a trusted adult when issues occur. Although the Stay Safe programme has been in schools for several years, there has been a distinct lack of training for teachers in that regard. It is now mandatory in schools and it is checked by inspectors as part of child safeguarding inspections and so forth. The rolling out of a suite of training on that issue may go a long way to addressing it and giving the bystander not the power but the confidence to address issues as they arise in schools.

Mr. David Duffy

The bystander issue is a very complex one. As Mr. Ryan and Ms Piggott have referenced, bullying can sometimes be very obvious, especially if there are physical injuries, whereas in other cases it can be insidious and very difficult to pick up on. That is why everyone needs to be vigilant.

As regards possible solutions to it in the post-primary sector, the well-being programme at junior certificate level covers some of this area. Obviously, more could be covered in that regard. There needs to be continuing professional development for everyone, including members of boards of management, who, ultimately, are the ones who have to deal with much of the fallout. The other thing that needs to happen is an update of the anti-bullying procedures from the Department. The procedures were published in 2013 but, through no fault of anybody, the system has changed quite dramatically since then, so the procedures could do with an update.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I confirm I am in Leinster House. I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I am slightly taken aback by some of the adversarial comments by some Government representatives towards the trade unions in particular, particularly given they are all on the front line and doing their best to deal with the issue of bullying.

Bullying can start in school but, obviously, it moves away from school by the nature of it. As a result of the advent of smartphones, you can never really hide from it. In years gone by, you could go back to the bosom of your family and worry about it on Monday but now smartphones give the ability for bullies to be at you, intimidate you, hurt you and harm you at all hours of the day and night.

I am also taken aback by comments about the nature of the RSE programme. A total of 90% of primary schools are under the patronage of a church that believes women are second-class citizens and LGBT people are disordered. As regards the patronage issue, we only managed to amend section 37(1) of the Employment Equality Act a few years ago. I was involved in that. If a teacher is gay, divorced or a single parent, he or she is kind of under that ethos and is disadvantaged in trying to advocate for a more equal society and to point out homophobic or transphobic bullying or bullying that others people.

I refer back to something said here last week by Saoirse Brady, the legal officer for the Children's Rights Alliance. She said one challenge we have is the lack of data and that schools sometimes struggle to ascertain proper data so that we can have a proper overview of when bullying starts, how much of it is racially motivated, how much is homophobic, or gender oriented? I mentioned the age profile. We do not know how violent it is, is it about exclusion, violence or is it about taunting? That question was for everyone.

Does Mr. Ryan believe the promised Government citizens' assembly on education is an appropriate avenue for us to deal with the totality of education, how our system is structured, how the patronage model works and how within that we can have a system where the Department plays an active role in the day-to-day management of schools? Under our current system a huge amount of responsibility is left by the Department of Education to boards of management and patron bodies and therefore it dilutes the capacity of the elected representative or the constituted Department to have more of an influence than the patron bodies do.

Mr. Matthew Ryan

The Department having a more active role in schools is very important. I echo what was said on this topic at previous committee meetings in that there could be three schools on the same road, each dealing with bullying in a completely different way because it is very much up to the school at the moment. It is also very difficult for the schools to engage with the Department, there is a very large gap there. Many students do not even know who the Minister for Education is. There is a fundamental gap between the students and teachers on the ground and the Department of Education at the top. It is very difficult to tackle a bullying problem when one does not feel supported from the top. There absolutely must be a more active role for the Department with schools on an every day basis. Our report did call for an annual review of the Department's anti-bullying policies, just as schools have to, because we are working with outdated material so it is very difficult for schools.

Ms Ann Piggott

The data that exists is the really bad data, which is the number of students who have died by suicide. Perhaps we need to start looking at schools and see where the high numbers are, monitoring those and going into those schools. Every school should have templates that are filled out by teachers when students are bullied. That has to be the unfortunate starting point, and work from there. Otherwise, who can tell when it starts? It probably never finishes.

Mr. David O'Sullivan

Here we are in 2021 calling for a longitudinal empirical Irish study to be undertaken on this topic of the impact that school bullying has on mental health, not only of pupils but also teachers. We call on the committee to make that recommendation that such a study be undertaken.

Mr. David Duffy

The issue of data is very complex, not only because it is hard to gather in terms of whether bullying took place but also the whole context of where it may have taken place and who becomes responsible for data, etc. Schools have very clear responsibilities here. The Deputy mentioned cyberbullying which is a particularly insidious thing because one can never actually get away from it, as the Deputy mentioned. If cyberbullying takes place at 10 p.m. on a Saturday night, there is a limit as to what a school can do about it in the immediate case, even if it becomes aware of it. This is why everyone needs to work together on it. Cyberbullying is something one will never escape from.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the contributors. It is a really interesting discussion. To Mr. Ryan, how important are student councils? What resources do student councils need to enable them to represent the realities as he described, to be able to communicate that within a school and then outward from the school?

Mr. Matthew Ryan

Student councils are one of the most important bodies in a school for students because it is the main way they can have their voices heard. Students provide invaluable insight to schools when they are reviewing their bullying policies on an annual basis because only students know what students are going through and they can say clearly what is happening and what they need supports for. It is sometimes difficult. One of the biggest challenges ISSU faces is the establishment of student councils and how they are treated. They are often set up so that schools can say they have done it but then they are not actually engaged with and they have to push and fight to be heard. When they are met with, they are treated as students, as though they are just giving a student opinion, as opposed to representatives of the student body which is what they are - they are bringing their peers' views to the higher bodies in the schools so that they can actually do something about it. The main things are, first, to support the establishment of the councils and making sure that every school in the country has one so the student voice can be heard. Second, ensuring that they are treated as equal stakeholders because they do make up the largest stakeholders in the education system. When they are not treated like that it is infuriating, especially on an issue such as bullying where students can offer such invaluable insight because they have been and are going through it themselves. It is imperative that the councils are set up and supported.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Good, I thank Mr. Ryan. To the INTO and TUI, how can we introduce a higher value on social and emotional intelligence? The whole curriculum is designed around stuffing in as much information as possible and vomiting it out on a paper for an exam. What is needed in schools to prioritise social and emotional intelligence?

Mr. David O'Sullivan

There is now a move towards well-being and it is being introduced on the curriculum, which is to be welcomed, to develop pupils' skills and build on their capacity in how they engage with society and their peers in general. The introduction of well-being on the curriculum is a very welcome step and we would obviously call for resources, appropriate training and the supports to be put in place as well.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Rather than having it as an add-on we need to ensure that there is a culture of promotion of social and emotional intelligence that is embedded into a school culture rather than tacked on to something else. That is why we need a radical reform of the whole curriculum, particularly at second level. I am very conscious that we are talking about schools here, but not all schools are the same. Some are excellent, very outward looking, and embrace all these things. However, I am conscious of the level of bureaucracy and the high levels of work for teachers in schools and the impact of pupil teacher ratios in all of this in striving to do what is required of them and the load they have on them all the time.

On the impossible caseloads of CAMHS and NEPS, we must ask when is a service not a service? It is when it is not accessible or not accessible in a timely way. That is no reflection on either those working within NEPS or CAMHS but it is just not fit for purpose. We are told that millions and billions of euro are being made available for mental health. As public representatives, we all get calls from parents all of the time who need their children to access CAMHS and NEPS, but the service is just not there. It is not even there in the form of a call back.

For teachers and parents who do not have that, no matter how well intentioned they are, it is causing a blockage. What can be done for CAMHS and NEPS in this regard?

Mr. David Duffy

There are three aspects, namely, social and emotional intelligence, the well-being programme in the junior cycle and the forthcoming senior cycle review from the NCCA, which is due to go to the Minister soon. The TUI, in its commentary on that report, believes that education should be respected in its widest sense. While it has a role in preparing for the labour market and for further and higher education, it also has a role in the sense of education for education's sake, and much of the social and emotional aspect will come into that.

As for CAMHS, NEPS and so on, staff, through no fault of their own, are under severe pressure. Schools find it difficult to get support for students in crisis.

On the other supports needed for schools to deal with social and emotional intelligence and students in crisis, there are pastoral supports such as guidance counsellors, middle management and home school and community liaison officers, HSCLOs. The Deputy referred to the pupil-teacher ratio. If staff have fewer students at any point, they are more likely to be able to pick up on those small triggers that show that a student is possibly displaying the first signs of difficulty.

Vice Chairman

I will let the Deputy back in if there is a second round of questions. I call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

As Senator Flynn is under time pressure, I am happy to swap my slot with her if she wishes to go ahead.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh and appreciate him doing that. I thank Mr. Ryan for attending. His facial expression, like mine, said it all as Senator Mullen spoke. I felt a little embarrassed for the Senator and had to turn off my webcam as I was listening to some of his inappropriate comments. I apologise for them.

I am a member of the Traveller community. I have not heard Travellers mentioned once in this discussion or in our guests' submissions, although they mentioned racism and discrimination. The same is true of the Muslim community and Muslim women who have to wear a hijab. Last year and early this year, in the context of the Black Lives Matter movement, we heard from many people. A young woman from County Kildare spoke about being bullied at school and about many young Black students being bullied at school. Mr. Ryan spoke about how the curriculum system needs to speak to communities and individuals, with the inclusion of people who look like them.

We are still under-represented professionally. There are not enough Black, Traveller or trans teachers in the education system. How can the curriculum system be made more inclusive to educate students about racism and discrimination? At present, I am waiting for the Minister, Deputy Foley, to progress a Bill that has already been debated, although it does not seem as if that will happen any time soon. It is called the Traveller History and Education Cultural Bill 2018. It is very important for members of the Traveller community that that be included in the curriculum system. It is not Travellers who need to be educated about Travellers, however, but rather students from the general population. I am interested in hearing all our guests' opinions on how the curriculum system can be made more inclusive and how we should educate both teachers and students about people from ethnic minority groups. Trans people are a big part of that. Should there be a module on racial discrimination and fairness within the school system?

Finally, we have not touched on the yellow flag programme, which is delivered by the Irish Traveller Movement. It is an inclusive flag and every school should fly it.

I thank all our guests for their attendance and Deputy Ó Cathasaigh for allowing me to contribute before him.

Vice Chairman

Does the Senator wish to direct those questions to any guest in particular?

Senator Eileen Flynn

No, they are relevant to all of them.

Mr. Matthew Ryan

I thank the Senator for those important comments. We must not speak for anyone but rather with them. In education, there is often a default of speaking for people and saying this is what people need to be educated about on these issues. Even in religion classes, where a White teacher might educate on, say, the Muslim faith, the Muslim students may be sitting there and wondering why they are not included in the conversation, or why they are being spoken for instead of being spoken with. Language and the way we speak with people instead of about them is very important.

Language can be so much more inclusive than it normally is. We have the default of using "he or she", whereas if we change that to "they", it will be much more inclusive of students who might be non-binary and might not identify with the "he or she" pronouns. Little things like that can make the school culture more inclusive. If a student is sitting in class and is not feeling represented, or if someone is speaking about only "he or she" or one particular group people, and if the student does not identify with that, immediately that student will feel ostracised and will not feel part of the conversation. That culture change that needs to happen. It has to happen actively; we cannot just say it needs to happen.

Ms Ann Piggott

I have taught civic, social and political education, CSPE, and many times I have shown students Traveller films such as "Pavee Lackeen" or "King of the Travellers", and they have been engrossed and engaged. There is plenty of scope, under the nine grounds of discrimination and so on, where there would be an avenue for that. There are brilliant displays of the Senator's culture and its crafts. Perhaps members of the Traveller community should be more commonly invited in to schools as guest speakers.

Mr. David Duffy

There are a few aspects on discrimination. Sadly, it happens in society and schools are a microcosm of society, so sometimes it happens in schools. We need to address it every time it happens.

The TUI has always argued that the teaching workforce has to be diverse. The longer period of teacher training that has been in place in recent years has in some ways created a greater difficulty in trying to achieve that because it means that if a teacher comes from certain socioeconomic backgrounds, it will be harder for him or her to engage in the process.

On anti-racism, a few very good programmes operate in schools, such as Anti-Racism Week and so on. As Ms Piggott and Mr. Ryan quite rightly said, it needs to be a part of the curriculum. Programmes such as the leaving certificate politics and society course, the junior certificate CSPE course and the social, personal and health education, SPHE, programmes are very important.

I am delighted that Senator Flynn mentioned the yellow flag programme. It is a very good programme and the TUI has been involved in it for a long period. I was the TUI representative on the programme for quite a few years. It is an excellent programme that does very good work in schools, and the TUI has been doing its best to promote it in schools where it does not exist.

Mr. David O'Sullivan

The INTO is very supportive of inclusion within schools and we too have been supportive of the yellow flag initiative. We recognise the importance of seeing evidence of one's identity being reflected in the school context.

In a submission to the Department a few months ago, we made reference to diversity in teaching, as the Senator mentioned, regarding members of the Travelling community, those from other religions and so forth.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank all the witnesses for their contributions. My first question is for Mr. Ryan. He made a very eloquent case for the importance of the student voice. It should be front and centre in how we deal with any of these things. Much of today's discussion has centred on RSE and cyberbullying. In secondary schools, is that the predominant form or the kind of bullying that most affects the student population? In my experience, most bullying tends to be blended; it is not just one type. Are we placing too much emphasis on cyberbullying in this conversation or is this very much the lived experience?

Mr. Matthew Ryan

It is not a black-and-white answer; it very much depends. The problem of cyberbullying has been exacerbated during the Covid pandemic. We have been using things like Microsoft Teams and it is possible to private message on Teams. There is an instant opportunity for bullying when someone can private message someone else at any time of the day. It is very difficult for teachers to monitor that, if they are not trained properly in IT skills. It is also hard to know whose jurisdiction it falls under if it is happening outside the school, as the Deputy mentioned.

The cliché of the schoolyard bully walking around beating people up, taking their lunch money and so on was mentioned earlier. That is quite outdated. It happens, but I feel it is a much more blended approach to bullying. There is not one type that is more prevalent or less prevalent. It is not about which is more or less prevalent; it is about the impact it has on students. Whether they are cyberbullied, physically bullied or excluded, what is important are the impact it has, as opposed to what happened to them, and how we can prevent that no matter what type of bullying it is.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have a question for Mr. O'Sullivan from an INTO perspective. There has been mention of diversity in the classroom. It is sometimes difficult for children to see themselves at the front of the classroom if they are not from a traditional background. The Employment Equality Act provides that a school should not be taken to discriminate against a person for the purposes of this Act if "it gives more favourable treatment, on the religion ground, to an employee or a prospective employee over that person where it is reasonable to do so in order to maintain the religious ethos of the institution". That will naturally go against people from a different religious background or from none. I think it also has a cooling effect on teachers feeling they can be openly gay within a school setting. The Act also provides that a school should not be taken to discriminate against a person if "it takes action which is reasonably necessary to prevent an employee or a prospective employee from undermining the religious ethos of the institution".

We may have put too much emphasis on RSE in this discussion today. At last week's committee hearing, it was stated that homophobic bullying was rife in our secondary schools. I am concerned that our RSE programme at primary level does not really allow us to talk about homosexual relationships in a way that I think would be healthy and positive. We need to get to children before that age of 13 that Mr. Ryan was talking about. In this context, is there a need to go back to the Employment Equality Act to include the things we are talking about, diversity in the classroom and revisiting our RSE norms, to ensure it is fit for purpose?

Mr. David O'Sullivan

I thank the Deputy for his question. In February 2020 we produced a very interesting survey on this matter. Some of our members refuse to come out in the workplace for fear of being overlooked for promotion or for fear of not getting a job. They become more comfortable in expressing their sexual identity in their workplaces when they are more secure in their employment. We would probably need to give further consideration to anything else within section 37 of the Employment Equality Act that might need to be amended. It would be heartening for our members to get some statement when they apply for jobs that everybody would be treated equally and that nobody would be disadvantaged in the workplace because of their sexual orientation.

Regarding strategies within schools, in 2011 there was a commitment in the programme for Government at that stage to encourage schools to develop antibullying policies and in particular strategies to combat homophobic bullying to support students. In the survey I mentioned, the majority of our members are aware that schools must implement education and preventative strategy to deal with homophobic bullying. However, 89% said they had not received any training in how to educate about and how to prevent homophobic and transphobic bullying. That is a startling statistic. There is an urgent need to roll out training. More than 80% said they would welcome training in that regard. Our members feel very passionately about ensuring that nobody is bullied because of their sexual orientation in their school environment.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Mr. O'Sullivan mentioned that the NCCA is looking at primary school curriculum reform and an increased focus on well-being. He will know as well as I do that the SPHE programme is only afforded half an hour per week. Unfortunately, it is one of the easiest lessons within the school week to skip or to get rolled into the extra maths lesson or whatever else. Will more time be allocated for well-being education if we are moving in that direction?

Mr. David O'Sullivan

That is something that the INTO is seeking. Obviously, it is important to get the balance right in the curriculum, but well-being is now crucial in the school environment. Obviously, we will need to look at other areas of the curriculum. Thirty minutes is not enough time in the school week to deliver a well-being programme. We have had well-being programmes, such as Walk Tall and others. Schools must now go it alone in implementing those initiatives themselves. We need a centralised approach to the provision of training for well-being. It needs to be adequately resourced and supported when the curriculum change takes place.

Vice Chairman

Deputy Farrell indicated that he would be happy to give his time to Senator Dolan.

Senator Aisling Dolan

This is a topic that is close to my heart. I am a member of the Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health and I am aware of the importance of the issue. I believe it will blow up in terms of mental health and well-being, particularly given everything we have had to endure over the past year both for our students and our teaching staff.

Cyberbullying and homophobic bullying have been mentioned. It is about the tools we need to support the teaching staff, students and parents. What form should that training take? Could it be online? Could it involve role play? How does that work in a school setting? What would be the most useful for teachers, school board members and parents? How do we strengthen career guidance teachers in terms of mediation, particularly at post-primary level? What are the ways the witnesses feel would be useful to connect?

Ms Ann Piggott

Even basic training in the whole world of computers is needed. Children at the age of two can turn on their mother's phone whereas the Covid pandemic saw many teachers using computers regularly for the first time. That is a start. Training is needed, even simple basic training on bullying because many people might not fully appreciate what it is if they have never experienced it. They might not appreciate the depths of it or might dismiss it as being not so bad for people.

Guidance counsellors, of all staff, are very well trained so it is more a question of having more time to spend with each student and of listening to them. After all, guidance counsellors have two roles, namely guiding students on their career paths and counselling them. If the rest of the teachers could have some of the guidance and counselling training, it would help enormously.

Mr. David O'Sullivan

We would welcome training, be it face to face, online or involving a blended approach. With regard to training, we need to look out for the signs of bullying. That is crucial. Bullying could be happening in the yard or at home so it is difficult for a teacher to spot it. A teacher could be in a classroom with 30 pupils. In this regard, we would welcome a reduction in class size. It is crucial to be able to identify the signs of bullying. On homophobic bullying, teachers would welcome comprehensive training in understanding LGBT+ terminology. LGBT+ inclusion and visibility within the school setting and curriculum are issues. How many of the books used in school make reference to same-sex families and so forth? There are several initiatives in this regard that can be used in any training programme. We are happy to expand further on that if the Senator wishes.

Mr. David Duffy

The mode is probably not as important as availability. At present, there is simply not enough continuous professional development. As Mr. O'Sullivan rightly pointed out, it needs to be extensive for all parties and needs to cover all forms of bullying. It needs to cover homophobic bullying, cyberbullying, traditional bullying, racist bullying, etc. The same principle applies to some extent to the question on guidance support and the training of guidance counsellors. Again, it is possible that the mode is not as important as the availability of ex-quota guidance, which sadly has not existed for the best part of ten years. As Mr. Duffy rightly pointed out – this applies as much in the post-primary sector as the primary sector – a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio is important in preventing problems in the first place. The restoration of year-head provision at post-primary level is also important in terms of prevention. We could all agree that prevention of the problem is a lot better than trying to fix it later.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Is there a way to help parents to engage? Maybe Mr. Duffy would like to comment on that.

Mr. David Duffy

Training should be available for all stakeholders. Everyone needs to be involved in this, including boards of management, parents, local communities and, of course, teachers and students.

Vice Chairman

Everybody has had an opportunity to contribute. It will be possible to allow some members to contribute again. They may indicate if they wish to do so. I skipped my time slot because, as Chair, I ask my questions at the end. I thank all the witnesses for our incredibly engaging discussion and debate. I am passionate about the subject. As a former teacher, I note from year to year the difficulties young people have because of bullying and a lack of support. I note the isolation they perceive themselves to be in. Society has a huge responsibility to try to do what it can to prevent bullying and to intervene and support those who need support. We must also support the perpetrator in seeing why his or her behaviour is completely wrong. This is why I believe restorative justice is very important. The committee regards this as a major part of its work. This is our third session on this matter, and there are three to follow to ensure that we will come forward with really strong recommendations for the Minister and the Department.

I agree with much of what has been discussed regarding the update of the RSE curriculum. This is important if we are to engender respect for those who are different, for whatever reason. The update of the anti-bullying procedures, which have been committed to since 2011, is exceedingly important. I was surprised to learn that data on schools around the country have not been compiled. They are important. Mr. O'Sullivan mentioned that many schools are doing their own thing. Are principles of good practice shared in the unions in respect of how schools are dealing with the matter?

I thank all the witnesses. Every time I have an opportunity to engage with the ISSU, I am incredibly impressed by the young people involved. I really am in awe of how articulate they all are and how they respond. We are talking about developing resilience in young people. Mr. Ryan is an ambassador for young people and students. Every one of the representatives has been incredible. I am always enthused by what I hear. We are on a good path when we have people like Mr. Ryan representing their peers. As a matter of course, we have always made sure we have included the voice of young people in dealing with every issue at meetings of this committee. Mr. Ryan does everybody proud.

I have a few brief questions. I will start with Mr. Ryan. I am looking for short responses, if possible. As a committee, we believe the voice of young people is exceedingly important in finding solutions to the issue of school bullying. How does Mr. Ryan believe schools can develop their own policies. How can young people be included better in this regard? Senator Dolan asked how parents could be included. We must consider the whole school community if we are to be successful. How does Mr. Ryan envisage parents becoming involved?

At our last meeting, on 11 May, one of the members of the advisory panel from Webwise said he felt that when teachers and gardaí go into schools to talk about bullying, it is more a case of lecturing rather than discussing. It is important that we examine this. Does Mr Ryan believe former students with experience of bullying should go into schools? How can this be addressed?

Mr. Matthew Ryan

To answer the first question, on how we can engage students, our view is simple: talk to them. They always have plenty to say. People should not be afraid to ask them for their opinion. We are often afraid of asking students what they think because there are differing opinions, opinions clash and everybody has something to say, but we should celebrate that as opposed to keeping discussion with students as a reserve in case it is needed. It is not always easy. If there are 800 students in a school, talking to all of them is not easy. Again, the establishment of student councils cannot be understated, nor can supporting them appropriately. Councils can articulate their students' views and talk to their peers. Nobody knows what students are going through apart from students.

On the question on gardaí and teachers, even from some of the comments made today we can see that, from generation to generation, there are many out-of-touch views on what youth are experiencing. We are often spoken for as opposed to spoken to in a conversation. We are often told bullying is bad and that we should not bully because it hurts people rather than being supported and having our expectations met.

The last point I would like to make is one I have tried to raise a lot today. It is all about the importance of language in this whole thing, especially when it comes to suicide, which can be the result of bullying. When we say things like "committing suicide", we insinuate that suicide is a crime or a sin. Making simple changes like this to our language can make a great difference to students. Even this morning, when we were advised about parliamentary privilege, we were asked not to mention "him or her" by name. This could be changed to "them". Simple changes to our language allow us to include more people and, to bring it back to society, make society a more inclusive place. Schools and society are massively interlinked. If society is more open, young people see that and bring it back into their schools.

Vice Chairman

I have a brief question for our three remaining witnesses. I completely agree with the call for extensive continuing professional development, CPD, for the whole school community, including boards of management, which have been mentioned. Teachers need to be given more upskilling with regard to language and empathy. It is certainly difficult with large classes but developing our teachers to be that significant person who can listen and provide support is of great importance.

The idea of the online safety commissioner came up quite strongly at the last meeting. Do the witnesses have any comments on that? Some schools take the firm view that if bullying happens off school property outside of school hours, the school does not have a role to play. I contest that. If the bullying is between students, the school does still have a role. Will the witnesses comment on that? They have addressed the whole area of middle management, which is really needed, but will they address those two issues? I will ask Ms Piggott for a very quick response first.

Ms Ann Piggott

I like the idea of the online safety commissioner but, if I could leave the committee with anything, it is the idea that this must be open and that there must be discussions. That is what it boils down to. Pupils who are bullied, who clam up and do not tell anyone and who feel very bad, need to know it is okay to tell someone, that somebody will do something or listen and that they will not be ridiculed. Their friends also need to tell. Sometimes friends or other people who see things do not tell simply because they are afraid they do not have enough evidence, that they will be bullied next or they will be considered tell-tales. That all needs to be done.

I agree with regard to the students' voice through the student council. I was at the Irish Second-Level Students' Union, ISSU, online event for a few hours last Sunday week. I heard that it is trying to get direct links to every student council. There is a member of management in charge of every student council. Perhaps there is potential for the setting-up of committees either nationally or locally in every school. There is a parent who has suffered in every town. They will probably make themselves available to go into schools and talk to students.

Mr. David O'Sullivan

I thank the Senator. With regard to the online safety commissioner, this is obviously something which would be welcomed. We need to give it further thought and consideration and revert to the committee with regard to the specific role this individual would have. We will come back to the committee on that.

With regard to bullying that happens outside of the school, it can sometimes start at school before continuing outside. It is a matter of trying to get the balance correct. Schools cannot be responsible for every single thing that happens in society but, at the same time, issues do come back into the school setting. It is a matter of achieving balance, getting parents involved and getting the wider school community to address those particular issues. Everybody wants a safe and harmonious school environment. Issues that arise outside tend to end up in schools. Schools are well versed in trying to restore harmony between parties when issues arise. The Senator mentioned restorative practice. Perhaps something more in that line would be appropriate. The Professional Development Service for Teachers ran a pilot programme on that last year and produced a report on restorative practice. It is about getting relationships re-established so that everybody can work together.

Mr. David Duffy

I will briefly address the issue of bullying happening off site. It is a very complex issue. There are cases of bullying happening in schools and cases of bullying happening entirely outside of schools, for example, in a local sports club or between two next-door neighbours. Such cases can and, in many ways, should be resolved outside of the school complex. The complex bit is where something happens outside of the school environment but which nonetheless has an impact on the school, as Mr. O'Sullivan has mentioned. An example might be something that happens over a weekend that causes tension between two students which manifests in the school context on the Monday or Tuesday. This then becomes an issue for the school to deal with. It is a complex issue. There are issues that are entirely within the school's remit and issues that are entirely outside it. The difficulty arises in the grey area in the middle where schools have a responsibility but are often unaware of the background to a situation. It is sometimes a matter about which they cannot do an awful lot anyway but that should not stop us trying.

Vice Chairman

I appreciate all of the witnesses' responses. I now have the opportunity to allow members in with some very brief questions. Is anybody indicating? If not, we can finish up. Senator Dolan has already come in twice so I was going to see if anybody else wanted to come in before her but, if not, I will certainly let her in.

Senator Aisling Dolan

That is no bother.

Vice Chairman

The Senator can go ahead.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I will follow on from the last comment. The witnesses have said that a lot of things happen outside of the school environment. Is there any link with sports clubs and so on? If a young person is having difficulties in one environment, is there any sort of connection or link with the other environment? I am not aware of any. I do not know. Perhaps someone who sits of the board of management of a school might also sit on the board of a GAA club or something like that. I suppose I am thinking more of rural areas.

Mr. David Duffy

The Senator mentioned rural areas. Often in rural areas the schoolteacher is the heart of the local GAA club. There are often possibilities there with regard to the transmission of information. We also need to be careful not to make schools responsible for investigating things that happen in the local GAA club which the club itself is well able to manage. I am using the GAA club as an example; I am not referring exclusively to GAA clubs. If the school got involved in such matters, it could end up making matters worse by spreading the issue across the community. It is an issue of boundaries for different organisations.

Mr. David O'Sullivan

Obviously, teachers are wholly committed to investigating incidents of bullying as they occur. They are often left in a very invidious position when trying to establish the facts of issues, whether they relate to matters within or without the school environment. Sometimes parents may be upset with the outcome from either side. We know that they may move on to other forums. We help them with that. They may go to the Ombudsman for Children or the Teaching Council to make complaints about teachers who are genuinely trying to do their jobs and trying to restore harmony in the school environment. Such teachers may find themselves with complaints that may travel with them for a considerable period. Education is also required for parents, as we mentioned earlier.

Mr. Matthew Ryan

On the point on clubs, it is a very grey area. As has been mentioned, it is very difficult for the school to take on something that happens in a club just because it involved a student of that school. It is a very grey area, but where I see a link is where derogatory language and so on is not challenged and allowed to happen in a club, from where it is brought back into the school. That is the biggest link. Education must run through the whole of society and everything in which students are involved.

We cannot put all of the work to educate the students on everything on schools. It needs to be a whole-of-society approach as opposed to just saying that schools alone are responsible for ensuring that our students are educated because that is a mammoth task for them to undertake.

Ms Ann Piggott

Somebody mentioned the idea of social bonding in school earlier. There used to be far more extra curricular activities in school in the past. Teachers are worn out with workloads, particularly due to junior certificate reform and then with Covid we have not had all of that. If workloads could be decreased in certain ways, there could be a focus on more activities, even just for students to feel good or to bond. It might be worth thinking about trying to bring back what we used to have in the great way it worked.

Vice Chairman

I thank all the witnesses for coming here and for sharing their insights and expert knowledge on this issue. This has been of enormous assistance to the committee in our examination of bullying and its impact on the mental health of our students. I would particularly like to commend Mr. Ryan for coming before the committee and sharing his individual insights and knowledge. As I said earlier, the committee is committed to hearing the voices of young people. The one message that is becoming clear on this issue is that young people must be directly involved in the recommendations that we make and the solutions we will be suggesting to combat bullying and to promote positive mental health. Mr. Ryan has certainly displayed and demonstrated with enormous conviction that young people must play a key role in resolving this issue. That is not taking away from the engagement we have had with the ASTI, the TUI and the INTO. That has been very positive and we appreciate the input of Ms Piggott, Mr. O'Sullivan and Mr. Duffy. I thank all of our members as well for their engagement.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.22 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 25 May 2021.