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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 1 Jun 2021

School Bullying and the Impact on Mental Health: Discussion (Resumed)

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Damian White, president of the Irish Primary Principals' Network, IPPN, Ms Rachel O'Connor, vice-president of the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD, and Mr. John Irwin, general secretary of the Association of Community and Comprehensive Schools, ACCS. The witnesses are here to discuss school bullying and the impact on mental health for students. The format of the meeting is that I will invite Mr. White to make an opening statement, and he will be followed by Ms O'Connor and Mr. Irwin. The statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee, with each member having a six-minute slot to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond.

Witnesses are probably aware that the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting. Before beginning, I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. As witnesses are giving evidence remotely from a place outside of the parliamentary precinct, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness who is physically present. Witnesses have already been advised of this.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I call Mr. White to make his opening statement, followed by the other witnesses. They each have three minutes.

Mr. Damian White

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to address the committee on this important issue. While all schools are now obliged to have an anti-bullying policy, it requires serious and continuous attention to ensure that school personnel are aware of the ever-increasing catalogue of ways in which bullying can occur, particularly cyberbullying. Where once the victim had the sanctuary of home at least when bullying might have occurred at school or elsewhere, now they are only a click away from those causing their discomfort and stress at any time, day or, particularly, night.

Research by the Dublin City University, DCU, National Anti-Bullying Research and Resource Centre reveals that cyberbullying incidents have soared in number during lockdown. Research has also shown the severe impact of bullying on the victim, their friends and family, those who witness the bullying, and even on the perpetrator. Mental health issues can result, including social isolation, stress, anxiety, depression, and even psychotic episodes and suicide. Physically, heart disease and other serious illness may be the consequences of bullying.

While we usually think of bullying at school as being between children, it can happen at every other interface between people. School leaders can be bullied by staff members or vice versa. Teachers, special needs assistants, ancillary staff and parents can be victims or perpetrators like anyone else. If unchecked, it can have a devastating effect on the well-being of those involved and on school morale in general.

The IPPN suggests a number of measures that will help to reduce the likelihood of bullying and its many consequences. More support is required for school leaders and boards with HR and the development of an appropriate dignity at work policy to ensure everyone can attend school free of potential bullying situations. Updated resources and continuing professional development, CPD, must be available on cyberbullying, racist bullying and homophobic, transphobic and gender-based bullying. A stand-alone policy to counter racism should be in every school and templates must be developed to support schools with this. As part of a centrally-approved and updated anti-bullying programme, emotional counselling and therapeutic supports for victims and perpetrators, and appropriate CPD would benefit all schools. A fully trained staff member is required in each school, with allocated time as a behaviour support teacher, to provide support and guidance, and to liaise with external agencies.

Through our IPPN leadership support service, since September 2017, we have advised on 25 cases of bullying among children and 29 adult workplace grievance procedure-type cases. Many of the school cases do not arrive on our desks. School leaders are often left to deal with staff bullying problems, which should be the remit of the board or even the management body. Research carried out for the IPPN and the NAPD by Dr. Philip Riley shows that school principals experience nearly twice the incidence of threats and actual physical violence at work than other population groups, with a higher incidence rate for female principals.

To conclude, a multi-departmental approach is required to strategically explore the development of multidisciplinary teams in and around schools to focus on bullying and other emotional needs of children, and to provide support for pupils and their families who experience socio-economic inequalities that may result in bullying.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

I am the principal of Ramsgrange Community School in County Wexford since 2013 and the incoming president of the NAPD. I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak to this topic today. I will briefly speak to three headings, namely, bullying procedures in schools, the impact of Covid and what needs to be addressed to proactively support schools that are incredibly proactivearound promoting anti-bullying behaviour.

According to the Department of Education, responsibility for tackling bullying in school falls to the level of each individual school. The anti-bullying procedures for primary and post-primary schools, as have been well documented and discussed here, were published almost eight years ago in September 2013. Society and the educational landscape have changed almost beyond recognition since then so I call for an urgent review of these procedures.

In all our schools anti-bullying campaigns, positive behaviour strategies, restorative practices, etc., highlight behaviours that may be more obvious such as name-calling, exclusion and even general pushing and shoving. Most schools are aware of these behaviours and are well equipped to deal with them.

Looking, however, at the past 15 months and the overnight move to the online space, it has been far more difficult to monitor bullying and bullying behaviour. Schools have had to play catch-up in respect of online etiquette, rules and guidelines for all stakeholders. A major issue with the anti-bullying procedures of 2013 is that schools are responsible for dealing with any negative impact within school of bullying behaviour that occurs elsewhere. Bullying that occurs online and outside of school gives no boundaries to the remit of the responsibility of the school. That is a very large task and very different from what schools faced in 2013. Schools need to be adequately resourced to face the modern-day challenges of preventing bullying and promoting positive behaviour. Appropriate investment is needed to support parents to resource an effective link between home and school to identify, call out and tackle the issue.

The fallout from Covid, the move to the online space and the impact on mental health has exposed a lot of shortcomings in mental health services for students. The reality is that schools can plug the gap of the lack of intervention supports only for so long. There are cases in which expert treatment and intervention is essential, and schools do not have the resources to tackle these situations. The focus of schools should be on prevention rather than intervention. More resources should be allocated to schools. As the Department of Education is engaging in the new digital learning strategy, why not ring-fence some of that money for targeted online cyberbullying prevention? NAPD, nationally, is gravely concerned about access to youth mental health supports. I can speak about my region, the south east, where there is a lack of expert intervention and supports outside of school. I will name but a couple of examples. There is one full-time child and adolescent psychiatrist position in Wexford, which has yet to be filled in a permanent capacity. This has been the case for several years now. CAMHS is under-resourced and is failing to meet the needs of our vulnerable students, particularly students who fall between the ages of 16 and 18. I am aware of colleagues who have had cases which have been referred through a GP after self-harm, suicidal ideation or threats of violence to themselves or others and who have been told there is a waiting list of between eight to 12 months. I am also aware of three parents in the past 12 to 18 months who have resorted to bringing their children to accident and emergency departments and refusing to leave until their children were prioritised to be seen by a member of a CAMHS team. However, even when students have been through the CAMHS process and received a diagnosis, there is no link-in with the school and no follow-up in the form of school-based support. In such circumstances many must turn to Pieta House for help. CAHMS, in its letter, states that it has no expertise in education. A determination as to the child's care or educational needs in the school setting can be made only by the relevant professionals in the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS. In the past two years, in my school in Ramsgrange, we have had no NEPS as our fantastic psychologist has been on maternity leave. The school is then assigned assessments by the scheme for the commissioning of psychological assessments, SCPA, but most find there is a severe shortage of people who are willing to complete these, mostly due to our geographical location. In the past academic year alone my school was sanctioned two SCPA assessments. We approached 12 psychologists from the prescribed list and we failed to get anybody to complete these assessments. NEPS needs to be resourced adequately to cater for 2021 demands. Occupational therapist services in Wexford are currently working through their January 2018 list, which means some children will be on that list for five years before they are seen.

To finish where I began, our schools aredoing fantastic work providing the "one good adult", which suits most students, but we need help. Our students and society at large need help now. Our schools are at the coalface. Educators are experiencing the societal fallout from Covid and will do so for the school generation to come. I call for more investment in restorative practices and supports to create a culture of dialogue and openness in our schools. I am happy to expand on any issues raised in my opening remarks as well as the February submission made on behalf of NAPD.

Mr. John Irwin

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to be here with the committee. I will provide a little context. The ACCS is a management body for 96 post-primary schools right across the country. Ms O'Connor is the principal of one of those schools. It is great to see her here. Our schools involve a joint patronage model and are very democratic in their set-up. At the core of the inclusive nature of our schools is our provision of a comprehensive education for all the children of the community. That is provided for in our deed of trust, which established our schools.

Today's topic of school bullying and its impact on mental health is a significant cause for concern for many across the education sector. Ms O'Connor has referred to a lot of the legislation and the procedures that are in place. Going back to the fundamental legislation, the Education (Welfare) Act 2000, there are the guidelines issued by the National Educational Welfare Board, NEWB, and, from 2013, the anti-bullying procedures for post-primary schools. All of these identify key personnel and were at that time useful in many ways. The concept of the relevant teacher and the identification of relevant personnel in particular areas; the need for agreed strategies across schools; school procedures for dealing with investigations; follow-up recording of bullying behaviour; and the role of the boards of management were all provided for in those documents.

Probably the most significant pieces among all those, though, are the promotion of a positive school culture; a climate in which people can feel free to speak out; and the question of how to try to manage conflict of this nature within the school while engaging the entire school community. A key comment made by one of our principals, who has been very much part of the research involved in a lot of what we do and is referred to in the submission we made, is that bullying will not thrive in a school where people can talk openly. People will feel free to talk openly and honestly where there is a climate of acceptance and a culture of respect. Ms O'Connor and Mr. White have both said that schools are doing tremendous work in this regard and are being supported in many ways by voluntary organisations outside. Ms O'Connor mentioned the "one good adult" that Jigsaw provides, which has now moved on to the "one good school" project. These are all hugely supportive but they are not systemic. We are depending on the support of these initiatives on a voluntary basis.

Creating this climate is a considerable amount of work for schools. What does it involve? We have programmes in place, and over recent years curricular change has taken place such as in the area of social, personal and health education, well-being, and the development of positive transition programmes between primary and post-primary to make sure that students entering the school are inducted in a positive way. However, significant training for staff is required. There is a strong emphasis in a lot of schools on restorative practices and trying to facilitate the student voice. Going back to the comment made by the principal to whom I referred, they are very much involved with the Lundy model and in the idea of the circle and in trying to provide safe spaces for students to be able to engage and to be involved. We in the ACCS, as a management body, have been involved with the NCCA and UCC for the past two years on a significant project about the student voice. We are just about to produce a journal on that which we would be very happy to share with the members of the committee when it comes in. While the student voice has got a hell of a lot more to do than just address bullying, its power and the transformative nature the student voice can have within school communities cannot be overestimated.

I agree with Mr. White and Ms O'Connor: we have looked at the traditional - if that is the correct word - forms of bullying involving an intention of harm, repetition over time and a power imbalance. However, the whole area of cyberbullying has exploded in recent years. Mr. White and Ms O'Connor have referred to research. We have more research again referenced in our submission to the committee about the numbers involved. The Joint Committee on Media, Tourism, Arts, Culture, Sport and the Gaeltacht recently reviewed the online safety and media regulations Bill and brought in students from two of our schools. Their research, which was pretty much up to date as they prepared for those talks, was very consistent with everything we are hearing today. They would say that around 16% of students have experienced direct bullying online and that 26% of students have witnessed bullying online. That is all consistent with what we are hearing from EU research, DCU and the WHO. They came up with excellent recommendations for that committee as to how we might address some of the issues, and it might be worth liaising between the committees and taking a joint approach across them. One of the things we have found is-----

Could I ask you, Mr. Irwin, to conclude in the next couple of seconds, please?

Mr. John Irwin

I will indeed. What does not work? Punitive sanctions.

To have restorative conferencing we will need to provide training for people and peer mentoring where training is poor. The concept works well. As commented by one of our schools - this is set out in the submission - we have access to a skilled psychotherapist and counsellor and their knowledge, expertise and guidance in this area is vital. It would be transformative if schools had some level of access in house to this sort of skill set and service.

I welcome our guests and thank them for their thoughtful contributions. My first question is to Ms O'Connor. I was very interested in what she has to say in respect of the past 15 months or so and how it appears to be noticeable that schools have to deal with the consequences of bullying by way of cyberbullying taking place outside of the school context. Are we putting too much of an obligation on teachers and schools to try to resolve the problem of bullying that happens outside of the school and, if schools do not play a part in it, where does that leave us with children and trying to respond to it?

Ms Rachel O'Connor

I thank the Deputy. One of the common misperceptions is that, under the 2013 guidelines, schools have to deal with issues that arise inside of school and carry on outside of school, but the guidelines state that schools are responsible for dealing with issues that happen outside of school that have a negative impact inside of school. In other words, the issue carries over. It could happen at the Saturday night disco or on Snapchat at 9 o'clock on a Friday night. It is not necessarily the case that there is too much emphasis or onus on schools but that schools need to be supported in supporting parents in that space.

In terms of tackling bullying and in terms of being preventative in mental health, we need a partnership approach. Schools need to be resourced to support parents. They should not have to bat issues back to parents on the basis that they are in loco parentis for 167 days of the year between 9 a.m. and 4 p.m. and that, outside of school hours, they are not getting involved. If a matter is having a negative impact in school, there is some onus on the school. It is the boundaries of that that are at issue. We need to support parents. Our school is in its third year of its restorative practice journey. We can see a real and concrete impact of restorative practice in reducing bullying in our school, but that is because parents are on board. It is a very transparent system.

I thank Ms O'Connor. In terms of the role parents have to play, as a principal, what does Ms O'Connor like to see parents do to meet the challenge of bullying?

Ms Rachel O'Connor

I like to see them buy into restorative practice and to buy into the piece of work we are undertaking. To do that, we need to have time and resources to train our parents. In September, I will be facing 550 sets of parents. We need the time and resources to train them in their understanding of restorative practice such that we get buy-in. If we can get buy-in from parent stakeholders, it is a win-win situation because they will understand what is happening inside of the school.

My next question is in regard Mr. Irwin's statement that the culture of the school is very important when it comes to responding to bullying and deterring bullying. How is that school culture formed and what can we as legislators do to try to ensure that positive culture exists throughout most of our schools?

Mr. John Irwin

There has to be an openness on the part of the school management to engage with all the stakeholders which, I would say, is happening in the vast majority of schools. As stated by Ms O'Connor, schools must engage parents, but they also must engage students. There must be a feeling there are safe spaces where people can speak openly. Ms O'Connor mentioned restorative practices. These are very important. One of the key issues is that the problem is the problem. The person is not necessarily the problem. Schools have to be able to separate the problem and the person. Mr. White has spoken on this issue as well. It is about being able to say to the student he or she is good but his or her behaviour in a particular situation might not have been great. I have heard Mr. White quote that many times. There has to be openness and all stakeholders - teachers, students and parents - must be involved.

Would Mr. White like to comment on what we can do to mould schools' culture?

Mr. Damian White

Mr. Irwin stole my favourite line, but I do not mind repeating that it is important to separate the child from the behaviour. If it is a child on child bullying incident or incidents, it is important at all times to try to make sure it does not happen again, that the victim is okay and that the perpetrator learns from it and so on.

As previously referenced by Mr. Irwin and Ms O'Connor, it is important parents buy into the culture of openness. Much of what was said by previous speakers is reflected in primary schools as well. Children are more aware of their rights now. In our school and, I am sure in every other school, the UN Charter of Rights is displayed for every child to see. As I said, children are more aware of their rights. Whatever applies to the older children applies at primary level also. That culture and openness starts with the principal. The school has to have an open door policy, but a parent must be an approachable adult, must not seek to lay the blame with anybody and must be willing to come to an agreement on how to solve the problem. It is important when bullying or any incident arises that it is addressed early. If a parent comes into my office, I will walk him or her up the corridor towards where the problem lies and we start at it straight away. It is important to stop the dribble before it becomes a flood.

Is punishment successful in trying to change the culture or behaviour of a child?

Mr. Damian White

It is a last resort. Every school has a code of discipline. A code of behaviour is probably a better phrase for it. If the behaviour persists and every other element that has been tried fails, punitive action may have to be taken. I would see that happening only as a last resort when other well-tried and trusted strategies have failed.

I thank the witnesses for joining us and for their compelling submissions. We have been dealing with this issue for a couple of weeks now. It is always worth remembering as we get into the thickets of the different approaches and so on the weight and seriousness of this issue and the damage it can do for a long time into people's lives, not only students but staff, because school is a workplace and bullying can occur there as well.

My first question is to Mr. Irwin. There is a lot of emphasis on the restorative approach and it is very compelling and interesting. While that will immediately sit well with some schools and the culture within them, in other schools that is a big challenge in that their tradition might be more hierarchical. Does Mr. Irwin believe this philosophy can be easily applied across a broad range of schools? Has he come across resistance to it from teachers or, perhaps, parents and, if so, how were those challenges overcome? The philosophy behind it in terms of ensuring the perpetrator sees the wrongdoing and can improve on his or her behaviour is very compelling.

Mr. John Irwin

It takes some time to implement because a significant amount of training is required for staff. There has to be a commitment from the outset that the school is going to provide training and there must be buy-in from each of the stakeholders. Ms O'Connor mentioned that her school is three years into implementing a programme of restorative practice. It takes time but the evidence is very compelling in terms of its success.

A research piece was written a number of years ago about the whole idea of forgiveness in dealing with bullying in schools. There is significant evidence that it is a key element in what has to happen for all parties involved. As Mr. White mentioned, the punitive measures must be a last resort. They may have to be resorted to if people will take no accountability for their actions but if we have strong training of staff, strong training of peer-to-peer mentors and strong engagement from parents, restorative practice can really work in schools, but it takes time.

I would expect so. I am certainly very persuaded by it. I have two more questions which I might direct to Mr. White or to Ms O'Connor or to both of them. They relate to proposals that came forward at recent committee hearings. The first concerns the links between the school and the wider community in terms of staff. I think specifically of home school community liaison staff but also, to some extent, perhaps school completion officers. Could the witnesses comment on the role they play, whether within the historical approach or otherwise and their value, as well as whether more schools should be able to avail of them?

The other proposal that was made by the Association of Secondary Teachers in Ireland, ASTI, was that there would be a person within some of the key social media platforms to help schools navigate problematic and challenging cases, who could liaise with schools and school management bodies. Are they proposals Mr. White thinks should be taken on board and implemented?

Mr. Damian White

I would be very much in favour of an increase in the home school community liaison service. It has a great effect where it is available, and schools are at a loss where it is not. It is not needed to the same extent everywhere, but where it is available one can see the devastating effect when it is taken away.

We all acknowledge that a lot of money is spent on education. Sometimes we need to look at bespoke solutions for schools in particular areas and examine what might benefit an area. What might work in one area may not be necessary in another. If home school community liaison teachers and people who assist with school completion programmes would be useful that is what the money should be spent on in those areas. I will hand over to Ms O'Connor.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

We are a rural DEIS school, so we have both a home school community liaison teacher and a school completion project worker. They are worth their weight in gold at all times, but in particular during the lockdown. The two ladies here, for example, delivered more than 6,000 food hampers to families. They also delivered work to homes and collected work. They remained a physical connection between home and school during lockdown. They break down those important barriers when one is trying to get buy-in from parents and to create a partnership model. It is the home school community liaison teachers and the project workers who link directly to the home and who are invaluable in delivering the ParentsPlus programme. We invest our resources into the home school community liaison and project worker and they deliver the ParentsPlus programme for free to parents online, offering cookery, woodturning, art and gardening. They are breaking down the barriers. If we can break down the barriers between home and school, we can get buy-in from parents and the reach out into the community, which is priceless.

I thank the witnesses.

I thank all today's witnesses. I am sure they have been listening in to previous sessions. We have done a significant amount of work, as have the witnesses, which goes to show the importance of the kind of work in which they are engaged. What strikes me from listening to some of the statements and some of the responses that have been given is how much more is involved in the education of children than imparting information. For too long we have not had the broadest idea of what education means. I would love to hear the thoughts of the witnesses on what we are imparting to children through these programmes that they can take with them after school, for the rest of their lives, in terms of their mental health and how to have resilience in an ever-changing society. The word "resilience" is overused when it comes to young people because often they, and many of us, are not as resilient as we would like to think. A lot of work goes into it.

What part is played by having good nutrition in schools and ensuring that people are simply fed when they are in school? Behavioural issues can be addressed when we look at how well cared for children are in society. It is not simply a case of going in and being a bully. There is a lot more behind it. We could invest in other kinds of projects rather than simply at the end of the road looking at the bullying and addressing it.

Mr. Damian White

The food programme needs to be substantially expanded. That has been discussed at previous sessions of this committee. It would plug a gap in so many ways. Many children are experiencing food poverty. It was never clearer than during the pandemic when there was serious appreciation for the food that was distributed by schools and the fact that schools set it up. An Post and various voluntary agencies helped in every way they could. Food is vital for everything. A child who comes to school in bad humour and does not get any decent food during the day will not be easy to teach in the evening, no matter what level they are at – from junior infants to sixth year. It makes a difference if they get a nutritious meal during the day. The committee acknowledged in previous hearings that food should be available during holidays. We are a reasonably well-off country and we should be able to support the neediest children and get them to the point where they are out in society and can make decisions for themselves.

Senator O'Reilly mentioned wider society and where we should be going. What we are trying to do is create global citizens in school. They get a rounded experience in school. They get good example from staff. The way staff and pupils interact is probably miles different from when I was in school. It is less hierarchical and there is much more consultation. There are committees within schools. Even in primary school now there are student councils where ideas are taken on and accepted and people can see the power of negotiation. There is a hell of a lot more opportunity now for children to shine and less reason for them to be overlooked or to feel their opinion does not count.

There is a great opportunity out there. For the most part, we are using the opportunity to drive good citizenship and good behaviour. Perhaps if the pandemic has done nothing else, it has humbled us a little and brought us back to the point where we realise what is important – good nutrition, good relationships and so on. I will hand over to another speaker.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

I will take over. Senator O'Reilly is dead right: it is more about education. When we look at the sociology of education, we are also talking about schooling. The amount of schooling that takes place while students are with us on a day-to-day basis is beyond recognition. It is not just about the delivery of a curriculum. To go back to the restorative practice piece again, as educators we cannot take for granted that the teenagers in front of us know how to have a two-way conversation and know how to give and receive feedback. The Senator hit the nail on the head with her point about resilience, because now they are taking responsibility for their actions, they can acknowledge where they went wrong, and they are coming to the conversation focused on a solution. There is a really important piece there in terms of life skills when they leave school with something in their back pockets, even if that is to have a two-way conversation, which is really powerful. At times, they have to learn how to be number two.

It is not all about winning.

In terms of good nutrition, I absolutely agree. I have been in post for eight years and I have seen kids and met students for whom school is the only place where they get fed during the day. That is the stark reality of it. We are a DEIS school, so we have school meals provision. Everyone is entitled to a free breakfast and lunch. The students who are involved in after-school activities also get fed. According to Maslow before Bloom, our kids need to feel safe, they need to be fed and to have a warm and secure place before they can start learning. Schools play that vital role. That is often overlooked, not by the committee but by society at large. It overlooks the role schools play in terms of providing the basics day to day basis so that students can engage in the curriculum.

Mr. John Irwin

Mr. White and Ms O'Connor have covered many of the points. One thing I would say about students in schools is that we have been remarkably encouraged by the return of students to schools. Many of the DEIS schools and large DEIS schools in urban settings have reported a 100% return to school after the lockdown of the new year. That is very encouraging. I hope some of the news that came out this morning will not be reflected in September. We sincerely hope the students will continue to engage. The resilience young people have shown over the past year in schools has been remarkable in many ways. They have been tremendous participators, in the main, in the education process in what has been a difficult and challenging time for them.

I agree with Mr. Irwin on that point.

I thank the contributors. I confirm I am in Leinster House. As I have said, we have been having these meetings for quite a number of weeks now, and every week we get increasingly impressive contributions. I am always advised not to say it, but I was a school principal for a time. The point Senator O'Reilly made is a most important one. As we all know, bullying comes from a place of deep unhappiness. Most of the conflicts I dealt with with children, whether in the case of bullying or negative interactions, would have been with children who were hungry. Before getting into who had done what, if I asked them a very simple question, namely, whether they had had their breakfast that morning, more often than not they would not have had their breakfast. They would not have had anything to eat since whatever time on the previous night. It may have been 12 hours since they had eaten something. Therefore, a teacher is always aware of issues as basic as food, the comfort of the child in the classroom and whatever is going on at home. If the child is comfortable in his or her own skin and is feeling secure, he or she is less likely to lash out. Having said that, bullying does not come exclusively from a place of poverty. There are any number of middle-class children who also engage in it.

I ask the witnesses the following in turn. In respect of the online space, is it the witnesses' view that bullying has moved online or that it is an extra layer on top of what they are already dealing with? Previous contributors to this committee have stated there is a lack of data and that schools need to provide more data as to the nature of bullying, for example, in respect of the age, gender and ethnicity profiles. Would the witnesses agree with that? How can we deal with that? I also ask the witnesses to speak to the need for a specific racism policy in schools and more guidance from the Department. Some schools have policies and procedures that are outdated. The witnesses have spoken about waiting lists of 12 to 18 months for child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS. The more things change, the more they stay the same. With those questions in mind, I would appreciate the responses of the witnesses.

Mr. Damian White

I will go first again. I acknowledge the Deputy's final point on racism. It is an area in respect of which I have come out quite strongly in a few public forums. We do not just need to have a racism policy, we need to have anti-racism policies. When we look at what is happening in the world and what has happened over the past 18 months, two years or five years, there has been an increase in racist attacks and crimes across the world. As a country, we should be, and can be, an exemplar in this area if each school has an anti-racism policy which is a stand-alone policy. We have around six key policies. The issue of racism comes under the scope of bullying and some other policies. There should be a stand-alone policy. I am firmly convinced of that. It would go a long way, particularly where children help to develop the policy within schools, to make racism something that is completely unacceptable and that people do not even understand in the next generation. That is my sincere hope in respect of the issue of racism.

I wish to ask a follow-up question. Are we doing enough to encourage teachers within the profession from ethnic minority backgrounds as role models within education? Is there more we could do?

Mr. Damian White

Yes. It will not happen overnight, but we certainly can. It is not just about ethnic minorities. There are Travellers and people from various backgrounds for whom the route to teaching is not as simple. A simple thing happened recently when funding was cut. I noticed a lady posted a tweet on the issue. She is trying to become a primary school teacher but the funding cut has ruled her out because she is a member of the Travelling community and is on a low income. She wants to become a primary school teacher, but the fact the grant has been reduced means it is impossible for her currently.

We should be digging up trees to make teaching a more racially diverse profession. A very small proportion of teachers come from anything other than the white Irish group. That is a fact and there is no getting away from it. Ten years down the line, it will be different. As people learn the Irish language from day one going into school, we will see greater diversity among teachers, but currently it is an issue we fall down on.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

I echo Mr. White's comments about racism. Going back to the Deputy's first point on bullying in the online space, I agree it has been prolific in the past 15 months. However, in my experience over the past 15 months, what I was dealing with in school moved to the online space, and when we came back to school it moved back into school and the physical space, give or take a certain percentage. We have all of our systems in place, all of my staff are trained in restorative practice, we have our student support team and everything in place in the physical space in the building. However, when we moved to the online space, we were told overnight to change our practices and move online, but there was no supporting material, guidelines, or etiquette. Principals were sitting at their laptops, coming up with etiquette. It is much more difficult to monitor, intervene and, for example, to get two teenagers and parents involved to resolve bullying issues online. Bullying happens continuously, but it ebbs and flows. It was exacerbated by the fact we were working remotely.

In respect of data, I agree completely with the Deputy. At every board of management meeting I attend, I provide data. They are not broken down as the Deputy has proposed, but I state how many cases of bullying have occurred, if they have been resolved, and if they have not been resolved since the previous board meeting, I outline why this has not happened. I must justify that as a school leader. The data sit with the board of management. I do not understand why they are not sent somewhere else or why they are not gathered by the Department for analysis to get real raw data to put supports and resources in place for schools. We are reporting the data, but they remain with the board.

That needs to be addressed.

Mr. John Irwin

I will be brief because many points have been covered. Bullying occurs both in school and online. It is how the issues are addressed that is important. The great challenge in the online sphere is that very often the potential for the bully to feel remorse or guilt for their actions is blunted because they do not see the immediate impact on the victim. Therefore, it becomes much more challenging to deal with at times. Let us be honest, the online space is not one which my generation have grown up with. We do not necessarily understand all the nuances the children do.

I fully appreciate the Deputy's point on anti-racism policies . However, I would prefer it if we tried to switch it into perhaps a more positive context and look at inclusive policies.

We need inclusive policies. We need to build in inclusivity. Sometimes being anti can have a negative connotation.

I have heard it said in schools that during anti-bullying week bullying is off the charts because the focus is on it.

Mr. John Irwin

If the issue were anti-racism, I would be speaking about promoting inclusion and diversity. To become a secondary teacher in Ireland it is predestined that the student will need to be from a middle class background given the cost. That is a fact of life. Unless we support people on that journey we will not break that cycle. It is important that cycle is broken and we have more diversity among teachers in schools.

I thank Mr. Irwin for his strong contributions.

Mr. Irwin made some very interesting points in regard to the people who become teachers. The next speaker is Deputy Conway-Walsh, followed by Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan.

I confirm that I am in Leinster House. I have been listening to the discussion and I thank all of the witnesses for their submissions. The witnesses will know that it takes time to create a culture of zero tolerance to bullying behaviours in a school to enable everybody within that school environment to feel safe. The more bureaucracy and demands placed on teachers within the school environment, the more difficult it is to create a positive culture. I have seen it done, but it has been done more in spite of the situation than because of the resources, recognition or supports provided to the schools. We have models of very good practice.

A couple of things stand out for me. It was cited earlier that a fully trained member of staff should be available with allocated time as a behaviour support teacher. I agree that would be a really good idea. Do the witnesses foresee that teacher having teaching responsibilities as well and, if so, how can that be done? Often, somebody is appointed to a particular role, but realistically he or she does not have the time to do what is needed to do the job properly. I ask the witnesses to address the issue of time. It was also suggested by Mr. Irwin of the ACCS that schools should have access to a psychotherapist or a counsellor. I agree those therapies are certainly not available within the schools when they are needed, but is that a reasonable ask? What is the cost to the school in education terms of not having those personnel appointed or allocated?

Mr. Damian White

I will address the first question. The reality is that the appointment of a person to that type of position would require bespoke solutions for different types of schools and so on. There are schools with 25 or 26 children and others with 1,000 children. The solution would have to be index linked. It is unrealistic to expect that schools would have a teacher totally devoted to this area. We appreciate that we cannot have everything we want. As part of the allocation for special educational needs, additional time could be allocated for a person to deal with that work specifically. For example, in an average sized school of 200 children, there would be an allocated time during the week when the appointed person would not have teaching duties and would be able to attend to such matters with the support of the principal. It would make a significant difference. Schools would be able to deal with matters in a considered and less emotional way. Sometimes when an incident arises in a classroom it is difficult to address it because there are other children present and so on. The teacher has to deal with everything as well as the particular incident. When there is a person available who is a step removed it makes things easier and more considered. An allocation of time specifically for dealing with behaviour and such issues is required.

I ask Mr. Irwin to comment on schools' access to counsellors and other supports such as psychotherapists.

Mr. John Irwin

As a management body, the ACCS supports the NCSE pilot projects in regard to supports for schools. It is a good concept. In the Irish context, we do not do therapies well a lot of the time because we do not invest enough in them. Some of the larger schools are investing and buying in expertise in terms of therapies. I gave an example earlier of psychotherapy provision in one of the schools. That school finds that provision invaluable. When a person is dealing with a mental health issue a specialist skill set is required to support him or her. The same applies with regard to the therapies. I refer to the Cluny centre for children with autism. We found it very difficult in our health area to get access to occupational or speech therapies so we purchased that provision. If the desired result is inclusive education, we have to support that. Inclusive education is not cheap. It is very expensive. To achieve the best outcome, we have to invest. I believe every school in the country should have access to a psychotherapist, although not on a daily basis. I am sure Mr. White and Ms O'Connor, as principals, would love to be able to call on a trained psychotherapist when they have children who are presenting with significant challenging needs, perhaps as a result of bullying, but for other reasons as well.

I agree 100%. I refer to Mr. Irwin's comments in regard to autism and behaviours. As a committee, we have been told that particular behaviours are part of the condition that may occur from time to time. Where schools state they need a particular amount of resources to be able to deliver positive outcomes for a child they need to be given those resources, but in the case of SENOs, there is a specific allocation regardless of the number of pupils for whom it is proposed to provide education. That is extremely destructive. It is not only destructive, it is dangerous. How can we ensure better collaboration between schools, SENOs, NEPS and so on?

Mr. John Irwin

It can be done through significant resources for the NCSE and Department of Education school support programme. The Government needs to invest in it. It is being piloted at the moment, but it is proposed to establish ten regional support teams with significant personnel, be that speech therapists or occupational therapists. This means children will have access to personnel on a consistent basis and, more important, they will be consistently able to meet with the same person.

I thank Mr. Irwin. The next speaker is Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan, followed by Deputy Alan Farrell.

I confirm I am in Leinster House. I have been following the debate and it has been very interesting. I will focus my contribution on following up on issues that have been already raised and trying to flesh them out further. Ms O'Connor called for a review of anti-bullying procedures. Many of us attending this meeting have been involved in education for most of our working lives or we serve on boards of management and so on and we have some knowledge of how the anti-bullying procedures work at board of management level and within schools. For the benefit of the wider public, I ask Ms O'Connor to flesh out specifically where there is a failing or a lacking in regard to the current procedures.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

In the current climate, the procedures are outdated in that they do not take into account the online space.

There are references to procedures but more focused procedures and guidelines need to be put in place for schools. When schools shut down on 12 March 2020, I spent all evening trying to come with up with etiquette and guidelines because my teachers asked me what could they do in this space or whatever.

Regarding the guidelines and procedures, we need resources for schools to strategically implement those procedures. The biggest issue with them is that they are not bespoke. Each school has its own school context, school issues, bullying issues, etc. When one gives a once-off template, changes the name of a school and there is no strategic training and no resources input then teachers are not brought together and school leaders are not trained. If I am not trained in it, then I am sending out my policies to all of my stakeholders, they have nothing to add, we have been told what to do and it comes back again. The guidelines and procedures are not bespoke for schools and they do not really engage with the online space so they need to be updated to engage that.

To return to what the Deputy Ó Ríordáin said about data gathering, a strategic and systematic way of getting that data back to a central place, wherever that may be, should be built into the procedures and then schools resourced accordingly because we do not want the inequity gap to widen. Where some schools have all of the resources in the world, they can train their teachers in restorative practice and implement all these different programmes but the schools that to do not have the resources and have the biggest bullying issues fall further and further behind. Therein, the Department is helps to create that positive school culture and climate that a lot of the members have asked about.

I echo some of the sentiments that have been expressed. I am a former teacher so with much of the training that teachers received over the years, even back to my old HDip days, I still never felt fully prepared to deal with the most serious bullying instances that might present themselves in a school. Much of the bullying was low-level stuff so required little intervention. In terms of the more serious type of incidents, I never felt fully trained up or prepared to deal with many of instances that presented themselves over the years.

My next question on data is for all three of the witnesses. There is legislation coming through in Northern Ireland that will oblige the Department for Education to compile the data that was discussed earlier. I suppose they will make use of it whether it is, to target any response or support at specific schools and areas where there is a demonstrable problem or a surge in bullying behaviour, cyberbullying or whatever. Can I take it from what the witnesses have said that they broadly support something? Would they support a similar initiative here whereby somebody in the Department of Education would be responsible for data collection? As they said, at many board of management meetings, that data on the various types of bullying instances is probably being hoarded across the country. The big thing about the legislation in the North, which will be brought in, is that it details the specifics of the bullying accusation so whether it is gender-oriented, based on somebody's sexual orientation, ethnicity-based or whatever the case may be. I ask the witnesses to expand on the role of a database here.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

A lot of data is collected by the inspectorate. In the parent and student surveys that are part of the whole-school evaluation, management, leadership and learning, WSE-MLL in schools, two of the questions that parents are asked include the phrases "my child enjoys going to school" and "my child feels safe and well looked after in school", and the same questions are put to students. The inspectorate gathers all of that information but there is a disconnect between the data that are gathered, the data that I present to my board of management and the resources that are provided. There are wonderful resources such as Webwise, which a Department of Education initiative. We provide an awful lot of data and to tell schools that more data are needed when they have been provided but stop with the inspectorate and with the boards of management means there needs to be consistent joined-up thinking to decide what can be done with all of those data.

Mr. Damian White

As Mr. Irwin mentioned earlier, it would be good if a school had a psychologist and some of the resources when it is apparent that there is a need. I am not so sure that the collection of more data would improve anything other than just something else that could be hacked into. To be honest, that would be a fear of mine. Where it emerges that there has been a serious level of cyberbullying say, over a weekend or a couple of children have reported, a psychologist and supports can be brought in. The Garda are terrific because they will come in and talk, particularly at primary level, about the dangers of cyberbullying and what it can do. There are companies that provide training and schools fund this themselves plus bring in experts on cyberbullying and so on. Rather than something as black and white as data being assembled in that way, the power and the finance to be able to bring in the supports when they are needed would be more significant.

Mr. John Irwin

I agree with Ms O'Connor and would not collect data for data's sake any more than it is collected at the moment. There are a lot of data collected and they could be used more effectively at times. I would not go down the line of collecting data for the sake of it. It would have to be very targeted.

I thank the contributors for their strong opening statements and for providing briefing documents. I also thank the Chair for allowing an extended period for us to delve into this issue. If the witnesses had been part of the first session, their report to us would have been much more hurried and a lot less detailed. What we have seen laid out in front of us will build on the previous discussions, which is welcome. We are getting to delve into issues such as restorative practice in a meaningful way. I hope that we will produce a good report from this and make some recommendations that we can follow up on. We have also provided a space to talk about an environment where children can thrive. We are coming to a deeper understanding that schools are about much more than curriculum delivery alone.

Ms O'Connor, in using the phrase "Maslow before Bloom", gave me a very simple thing to latch on to and redefine my own thinking a little. In a more common-sense way, Mr. Irwin said that we should have a psychologist when one is needed. That is so simple yet it could make a big difference.

Over the weeks there has been a great deal of emphasis on cyberbullying and it is clear that cyberbullying is a new issue. It has always been the case that bullying happens where adults are not present. We must equip children with tools but there is something qualitatively different about cyberbullying as it can travel inside and outside of the school gates, it can travel over weekends and it can travel countrywide in a short time.

I echo the comment Ms O'Connor made about youth mental health services, CAMHS and NEPS. Like her, I am from the south east and there is a significant deficit in the region. I worry for the young people who live in that corner of the country.

One of the presentations mentioned the need to have one good adult. As well as having one good adult, we need an adult like me, which has been referenced. For many children when they look at the person who stands at the head of their classroom they do not see anybody who looks like them and that can be to do with race, ethnicity, sexual orientation or religion. The religion and sexual orientation issues come back to the ethos in some of the schools and they are still a barrier. I ask the witnesses to comment on the matter. Are we doing well enough in making staffrooms a welcoming enough place as well? Can people acknowledge that difference in staffrooms? I worry that sometimes people feel they cannot fully be themselves within their staffrooms.

There is a major question around the space to do this work because there is massive curriculum overload both at primary and secondary levels. When we address the issue of curriculum reform we must ask ourselves how can we provide space for initiatives such as restorative practice to be engaged with meaningfully or, as I have referenced previously, SPHE, which is scheduled for 30 minutes a week at primary level. That is not nearly enough.

The other thing I will give Mr. White the chance to dig into in more detail is the bullying he mentioned and the physical intimidation experienced by principals, particularly female principals. He is here to represent the IPPN but can he say if that is reflected in the general staff as well as principals?

Mr. Damian White

The Deputy mentioned patronage and that whole area. It is true that patronage is overwhelmingly religious but in the vast majority of schools there is huge openness. My experience, as a principal on secondment from a Catholic school I will be going back to in September, is that no child who ever came through the door was made uncomfortable because of religion, race or anything else. Everyone was welcome and we made provision and always will for children who are of different faith or persuasion in any way.

On staffrooms and teachers who are alternative in their own way, I think staffrooms are generally welcoming places. The atmosphere in the vast majority of staffrooms is very good. At primary level, everybody is trained to teach the same thing so it is easy to focus everyone's mind on the same thing. At second level, it breaks down to subjects and subject areas but primary teachers have to work together in a successful school. It is the same at secondary but particularly in our case. There is no room for that kind of thing. There may be someone here or there who has an experience that suggests otherwise but, as a principal and knowing as many principals as I do, it would not be tolerated that any teacher be made uncomfortable.

I referenced adult bullying in my submission. I said it happens. Wherever there is an interface between people, adult bullying can happen and somebody can be made to feel uncomfortable for whatever reason. We have supported, I think, 29 cases involving adult bullying over the last five years with our supports and services. That would not detail all of those cases. A principal has to stand up and make a decision around who teaches what class, or what class a child is allocated to. Parents will come in, there may be an interaction and it might not be pleasant at times. We are trained and we deal with it and de-escalate wherever we can to return it to normal. In normal circumstances, it sorts itself out. There are occasions, however, where principals feel threatened. There is no denying that. It has happened and does happen. We deal with it and support those where it has happened. It is an issue principals deal with.

On where that research came from, Dr. Phil Riley looked at principals' health a couple of years ago. He did a huge wide-ranging study across IPPN and NAPD members and came up with the results.

I think there should be more SPHE. There is a lot of incidental SPHE. There is a need for more but the curriculum is quite full already. We need more physical education as well. We are trying to look at where to take the time from. Every subject can make its own case so it is a question of striking a balance.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh is dead right about one good adult. Schools have a certain amount of autonomy under the new continuum of support that we have in schools. We moved to the hour timetable in our school so every member of staff gives 20 minutes back under the special educational needs, SEN, model of continuum of support and delivers the NBSS check and connect programme. That is for the middle students who may fall below our radar. There are 54 students in our school who have one good adult who meets with them regularly for 20 minutes a week in a structured conversation. That has a really powerful impact. An adult like me is a powerful example of where we could take the one good adult model. It is something I will take back to my school and possibly roll out in our tutor time.

On the continuum of support, it needs to be emphasised to school leaders that there is a bit of autonomy in how support is delivered. I echo what was said in terms of the time, space and resources to do that. A positive school culture and school climate inside and outside of staffrooms comes from the top down. If school leaders are not trained in this and do not have the awareness, empathy and resources to filter it down through the troops, it will not happen. If school leaders are cooped up in their offices all day every day doing paperwork and administration, they are far less effective in the corridors where they need to build the relationships that will lead to a more positive school climate.

I thank Ms. O'Connor, Mr. White and Mr. Irwin for their testimony and for this interesting conversation. There has been some reference to curricular reform. The witnesses will be aware the Minister, Deputy Foley, has indicated she will look at leaving certificate reform. If there was one thing the witnesses would ask in terms of leaving certificate reform to address the concerns raised today, what would it be?

Ms O'Connor mentioned the challenges over the Covid period and we talked about grief and some of those issues. Coming immediately out of Covid, what supports do we need to have in place for September?

I sit on the Oireachtas media committee and had the privilege of listening to those students from Tallaght and Kinsale talking about the online safety and media regulation Bill. It is an important piece of legislation. We are talking about establishing an online safety commissioner as part of the media commission. It will regulate the tech companies. Mr. Irwin, Ms O'Connor and Mr. White might want to express what they want to see in that legislation with regard to the regulation of social media.

Much of the focus has been on the pressure students face, but I am conscious of the pressure staff often face. Students told us the staff may not have a clue about the challenge of social media. Ms O'Connor mentioned Snapchat; I would say a fair number of teachers may not understand what Snapchat is. I was struck by the case of a good school in Carlow where allegations were made that certain things were said. Suddenly, there was a social media frenzy and pile-on that was completely unfair to male teachers in that school. It was appalling and it took off and spread around the world. This is about a responsibility to truth. Will the witnesses talk in that context about the challenges facing teachers?

Ms Rachel O'Connor

I will speak to the first couple of items. I have already asked and spoken to the Minister on this but if I was to meet with her in the morning on senior cycle reform, I would say we really need to end the overemphasis on end-of-term assessment in the leaving certificate. We need to engage in more continuous assessment and look at other ways of assessing our students that would place them appropriately after the leaving certificate.

It cannot be all based on a three-hour exam. The mental health impact that has on our students is profound and we need to reassess that. I am aware that process is happening. My biggest fear is that much of that review took place pre-Covid. There almost needs to be an addendum to the review to take into account the impact on students during the Covid period.

In terms of the challenges of immediately taking over post Covid, NEPS was very clued in on the need for connection over content as we move forward. That period of minding everybody and of reconnecting with people needs to be carried forward for a little while but therein lies the issue. NEPS is very good at helping us. It moved from an inspection model to a support model during Covid. As school leaders, we welcomed that. That needs to continue. If we are promoting connection over content, we need help, support and advice on how to do that but, unfortunately, we are teaching to an exam model. There needs to be a strategic way of looking at the next generation of school students with respect to how we will mind them through the system and place them appropriately afterwards. Those would be my biggest concerns post-Covid. We have to mind them but we have to get the course covered. There is the issue of how we balance that as we are not resourced to do it as effectively as we possibly can. I will happily pass over to either of the other gentlemen to take the other points.

Mr. John Irwin

Regarding the senior cycle reform, I could not agree more with what Ms O'Connor said about assessment at senior cycle. It is archaic in many respects and it is very limiting in the range of abilities it tests. It has improved in recent years as subject specifications have tended to take in another component other than what we call the terminal exam, which is an awful name. At a recent debate on assessment, one area was raised where people should be challenged, namely, what it says about how accessible assessment is in this country when we have to put in reasonable accommodation for a significant number of candidates. People should ask how accessible is our assessment model if one of the key cornerstones in it is RACE. Many of us who have worked in schools know how difficult it is and how much work goes into that space in preparing the RACE applications. It is something to consider.

In terms of the other joint committee the Senator is a member of, I liked the dichotomy students described. They want freedom of speech but, by the same token, when it goes pear-shaped they want somebody to deal with it. As for the idea that it takes 48 hours to get material taken offline, having worked with schools and having had to engage with some of social media companies to take down outrageous material online, it would be brilliant if it was 48 hours. They are very slow to respond. They hide behind, on occasion, the argument that there is freedom of speech where clearly very adverse and damaging material about individuals has been put up online.

Without naming an incident, could Mr. Irwin outline an experience he had with one of the social media companies?

Mr. John Irwin

I am not in the Dáil, therefore, I will be very careful in what I say. One case relates to one of the mapping apps. If one picks a location and clicks on it, comments are written about that particular area. Some of the comments posted about an individual were horrendous. They were allowed on the basis of freedom of speech. There was no basis for the allegations that were published. I thought it was horrendous what an individual was being subjected to on a public forum without any right of reply and those comments were never taken down. We had no comeback. I would like there to be an ombudsman or somebody in that position who could independently look at these and address the issues directly with the companies.

Mr. Irwin might like to comment on the Carlow school experience and the social media storm there?

Mr. John Irwin

It is very difficult but good news does not sell that well while the sensational story will. This was a sensational story. In most of these cases if we were a management body advising the school, we would tell it to batten down the hatches and weather the storm. One is powerless and if one gets involved in the argument one is only fuelling the flames. It is challenging and if something gets misconstrued one finds it very hard to defend oneself but, unfortunately, I would say to schools that, on occasion, they just have to batten down the hatches and weather the storm. It is not right but that is what happens.

Mr. Damian White

The leaving certificate question is not relevant other than to say we have a leaving certificate student and he asked me today why are emotional teenagers forced to learn off Sylvia Plath, especially in a year like this. I will leave that one sit.

On the issue of the impact on students of Covid and on schools getting back after Covid, many schools are just asking for some guidance and the measures that can be put in place for September in order that people can get a break over the holidays and will not have to come back halfway through the holidays or early in August to implement some of measures that will come out then. An early decision on what the regulations will involve and the level of contact that might be expected at that time would be helpful. It is difficult to foresee from three months out, but we could have an outline of the guidance at least.

On the online safety and media regulation Bill, there is need for an ombudsman office to which people could take their complaints. It is only the bones of an idea but it is a consideration. As Mr. Irwin said regarding the Carlow school, sometimes schools end up weathering these issues because they get out of their control. If there was an office to which people could turn, which could, in turn, hold somebody to account, even a private individual, for comments that were posted, it might ease the posting of some of those comments.

Staff do not know who posted comments. Many staff members will be on Facebook but they are on Snapchat or Instagram and there is where much of the material appears. There have been posts on the rate your teacher website and the most vile comments have been posted on some of those sites about perfectly good teachers by somebody who has a gripe for one reason or another and thinks it might be funny or whatever. Perhaps my suggestion of an ombudsman could deal with those issues.

We as politicians can empathise.

I thank the guests for those responses. I call Senator Mullen.

I welcome our guests and thank them for their interesting contributions. I will pick up on the social media issues and ask a devil's advocate-type question. I note from the NAPD's submission the need for a separate and exhaustive investigation into the abuse of social media, its destructive bullying and the impact on young people’s mental health. In this culture we live in where there is a strong emphasis on nurturing of people and minding people’s mental health, and the unfairness of bullying behaviour, I wonder if bullying is a small subset of a wider problem about the abuse of social media. Young people’s experience of social media can involve exhaustion, sleep deprivation, unrealistic aspirations about life, negative body image, and perhaps over sexualisation or desensitisation to violence. Some of those issues are connected to bullying but many are not. Is bullying the minor theme and are social media and its various problems the major theme?

Mr. Damian White

For us in schools, bullying is a very major theme. All of those others things are contributing to the normal sea of certain behaviours that in the past we would not have accepted or seen as being acceptable. People can hide behind the security of a screen and it is amazing what people would do behind a screen that they would not do in public. Bullying is a major constituent part.

A footballer recently took a case against a teenager who racially abused him over a game of virtual soccer that the teenager was playing. The player had nothing to do with the goal not being scored, yet he was racially abused. That kind of behaviour is in wider society but it is a form of bullying. It was bullying to the victim. We are considering the wider point but bullying, specifically, is a massive issue. It is at second level but also at primary level. We are dealing with it. Now and again, it crops up in almost every school.

It can crop up in games. There are games in which children in two different houses can dress up dolls. I have heard of serious cases of bullying in a child’s game that simply involves dressing dolls. A child might say he or she is going to make a doll look like another child who is not present to defend himself or herself and does not know what is being said about him or her. With regard to online activity, there is a space for bullying everywhere.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

A very interesting point has been raised. My school took part in the My World Survey in 2018 and 2019. Some 10,500 students across the country took part in it. At the time, 92% of our students said they had a social media account and 53% of students said they reported spending more than three hours online per day. In my office, I have to deal with parents and guardians who are bereft over Johnny being online until 2 a.m., 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. and the impact it is having on him. I did not have a clue what the game Fortnite was. All the students in the school were obsessed with it. One of the times that most impacted our students was when Fortnite went offline for no reason for 24 or 48 hours. The impact was because of students' dependency on interacting with others online and engaging in this game. I will never forget it. Social media in itself, aside from the bullying aspect, is having a massive impact. Students are digital natives; we are digital migrants. I am constantly trying to keep up with what they are using. We are constantly playing catch-up.

Can I ask Ms O'Connor how parents have lost their nerve to a point where it is even possible for children to have access to technology at such a young age and so late at night? Even with the discussions that have gone on at this committee, I worry that we have such a therapeutic-type culture that we do not call out poor parenting for what it is anymore. Do we need to talk about education for parents before their kids go to school? If parents cannot regulate the level of access their children have to a technology that is causing them danger, what the hell can schools do to pick up the pieces? Surely it is too late by the time they get to school.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

Absolutely. It is probably one of the most frustrating parts of my job. To return to my opening comments, we need to get buy-in from parents. We provide online cyberbullying talks every year. In conversations I have had in my office, I have said to mothers and fathers that they should please just turn off the Wi-Fi. The Wi-Fi can be turned off from 9 p.m. and parental controls can be used. Parents can control the device in the house and have full access. However, they have a fear about their capacity to do that because they are operating in a space in which they are not 100% comfortable. It is the role of the school to create awareness but it is impossible for us to educate all parents in this space. It is our job to create awareness and point parents in the right direction to find support. The parent section on Webwise is incredibly informative. However, this is one of the most difficult spaces in which we operate. Where does our parenting piece end, and where do mam and dad have to step in? This can be very difficult at times.

Mr. John Irwin

There are challenges associated with social media but we are not going to roll back the tide at this stage. The Internet is a very important medium for young people. There are many positives so it is not all negative. I agree with Ms O'Connor about what goes on in a lot of the schools and I agree there is very practical advice on Webwise and very practical advice given by schools. It can be a case of educating parents to instruct that the mobile phone be left in the kitchen, not up in the bedroom, and to turn off the Wi-Fi. With Netflix, I am not too sure whether people will turn it off. There are many positives. Let us not demonise something that has been quite revolutionary.

We know the good it does but there is clearly something wrong. It is a question of some kind of access.

Mr. John Irwin

Some, but let us not completely demonise social media. There is a lot of good that happens on social media, too. Is that okay?

I use a smartphone myself; I am not a complete Luddite.

I thank Mr. White for a comment he made. I have heard so much at meetings of this committee from people obsessing over faith-based schools and constantly implying they are somehow soft on bullying of a certain kind. It is often due to a misunderstanding over the culture of inclusion in our schools. Sometimes it is anti-religious prejudice. I was glad Mr. White said earlier that there is a need to be fair regarding the good work being done across the sector in trying to combat bullying at any level.

I thank the Senator. I have a couple of questions for the witnesses. It was very interesting listening to them and the questioners. Ms O'Connor spoke about Fortnite. I could educate her on it. I did not know much about it until about 12 months ago but I could now give her a good, solid education on it and, I am not ashamed to say, the rows it causes in my house and, I would think, every other house.

I feel very strongly about this issue. I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh for his remarks on my raising this subject as Chair. We put a great deal of work into it. I also thank the clerk to the committee and assistant clerk to the committee for the amount of work they have put into it. I feel very strongly about it. Every member of the committee feels equally strongly about it. Over recent months, it has been like opening up Pandora's box. What has sprung up at each meeting has been very interesting. I have no doubt that we will have a comprehensive and interesting report when we conclude our hearings.

Several witnesses, both today and at previous meetings, have called for anti-bullying procedures for primary and post-primary schools to be updated. The committee published a report on the impact of Covid-19 on primary and secondary education recently. It recommends the updating of the guidelines to include homophobic and transphobic bullying. It will be interesting to hear from the witnesses whether they would like other forms of bullying to be included in the revised guidelines.

In its report, the committee recommends that emotional and therapeutic supports be provided in all schools. I do not expect the Department of Education to roll that out tomorrow morning in every school but there should be a public programme. I have stated this at previous committee meetings. Others have also sought a pilot programme. I do not refer to a role for a career guidance teacher but to dedicated emotional and therapeutic supports in primary and post-primary schools. They would help to alleviate pressure on teachers who may not feel they have the specific qualifications to address the issues that arise. Could we have a brief reply from the three witnesses on it?

Mr. Damian White

Homophobic and transphobic bullying have probably come to the fore relatively recently. Perhaps they always existed but they have become more evident recently. There might be a development of older forms of bullying, such as slagging people off because of the clothes they wear or their fashion sense. They may be slagged off where their appearance, lunch or whatever indicates very evident poverty. These kinds of things have moved on but old-fashioned bullying is encountered and must be dealt with at school.

It is an ever-changing scene. As teachers, we have to keep up with it. We have called for continuing professional development, CPD, so that all teachers would be able to recognise it when those kinds of bullying incidents happen. I think someone said earlier that teachers are not always aware of what is going on with social media and so on. Through CPD, which we could all get on a reasonably regular basis, we would be able to notice and stop something in its infancy. I think that would help.

The Deputy mentioned emotional support and therapeutic services. A pilot is always a great way of getting a snapshot of how things can roll out. Many different agencies have operated pilots, including the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and various other bodies. They give a snapshot. One can see what things would be like if they were applied on a broader scale. I welcome the support of this committee for emotional and therapeutic supports. The sooner a pilot could be put in place, the better.

I would encourage people to look at things from a primary school's point of view. Obviously, there are many small schools and, therefore, things apply slightly differently. However, in the parish where I live, we have six small schools, all with teaching principals. The word “bespoke” has been used a lot here. Perhaps something bespoke to that kind of situation could be developed in order to see how one could apply those kinds of supports across a range of small schools. A number of different solutions are probably necessary. I would certainly love to see a pilot, because we can learn much in a year with a pilot, and a year is a short enough time.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

I absolutely agree in terms of the procedures. They should be updated. It would be great to include homophobic and transphobic bullying, as well as bullying based on disabilities and on socioeconomic backgrounds. We see much of that. In a school like mine, there is a full spectrum of economic backgrounds, of abilities and of disabilities. It is important that awareness is created in that space, too. We should go back to basics on the use of derogatory language among our teenagers, such as calling people “gay”, or “a bender” and other really horrible derogatory terms that are used on a daily basis in the yard. We should go back to zero tolerance on that. We should almost retrain the vernacular of our teenagers. This is an important piece of this. It is a good and simple place to start to create awareness.

When the new guidelines, Children First, were launched, every teacher in the country had to complete a professional development service for teachers, PDST, and a Tusla e-learning course. There is no reason that the PDST cannot be mandated to do a "bullying first", bullying intervention, or bullying awareness programme, whereby before coming back to school, every teacher in the country would have to sit down for an hour or two to complete an online e-learning course. Then we would be well on the way to creating awareness and to putting it back into schools and staff rooms, so that we can start having conversations about the impact of bullying. We have to name it to tame it. If we do not know about it, we cannot do anything about it. It is timely to do simple, actionable things to create awareness around this important topic. I would very much welcome the intervention of a pilot programme.

I call Mr. Irwin.

Mr. John Irwin

Very briefly, I agree a programme should be developed around the area of anti-bullying strategies in schools. The guidelines should be revised. Both Mr. White and Ms O’Connor have already mentioned this. I would fully agree with them on the socioeconomic background, in particular, because it can be quite a divisive thing in very inclusive schools, where all the children in the community are in attendance. When we look at the training programmes, they should be to equip and train teachers with the language and the vocabulary around bullying, so that they can train students in the vocabulary of how they address their issues. If we are serious about the student voice in schools, we have to equip students with skills. Part of that is the vocabulary that they use and how they interact in a respectful and positive manner. Again, there are vocabulary skills that have to be learned around that.

I thank Mr. Irwin.

I have another couple of comments to make. I have spoken about this in larger primary schools. They do not have a similar problem in secondary schools. In my local primary school, St. Aidan’s Primary School, Enniscorthy, where my own children are going to school, there could be a little over 900 pupils. It is a fantastic school, run by the principal, Mr. Frank Murphy. I ask Mr. White to make a brief comment on the following, although I know I am outside the remit here but it is part of it. It is hard for a walking principal in a very large primary school to identify some of what is going on. I know he or she has the co-operation of all the teachers, but in a post-primary school, there are maybe two deputy principals. However, in a large primary school, there is only one permanent walking principal. I have mentioned this to the Minister for Education, Deputy Norma Foley, on numerous occasions when she has been before the committee. I ask Mr. White whether this is an issue for larger primary schools which do not have a permanent walking vice principal.

Mr. Damian White

I think it is. In order to have a walking vice principal or deputy principal, there has to be 24 teachers. That threshold is way too high. One is dealing with a huge number of people, across a great range of ages, a great deal of socioeconomic backgrounds and with all the issues that have been outlined. This is an area where we fall down. That threshold should move. I agree with the Chair 100%. This is an area where we probably clash with our second level colleagues, where they have certain advantages over us. The Chair mentioned a fortnight. If he had a month, I could fill them in on some of the others.

I would agree with the Chair and echo his comments on St. Aidan’s Primary School, Enniscorthy, and on Mr. Frank Murphy. It is a fantastic school and one of the biggest in the country. A school like that should be adequately catered for, by way of having staff available to deal with these issues, outside of class time.

I have a question for Ms O’Connor and Mr. Irwin on cyberbullying. Parents play an important role when it comes to bullying. When I was going to school, and it is still happening, there were students bullying teachers, students bullying students, and teachers bullying students. That happened, and it is still happening. It is one of the reasons I have such a huge interest in this. Parents have an important role to play here. If their son or daughter is identified as the bully, parents often do not want to know about it. They refuse to even engage with the school on it. Often, parents are slow to come forward when their son or daughter is being bullied because, maybe, they do not have the confidence to come to the school. Parents have a huge role here.

The other issue is educating parents on cyberbullying. I did a booklet a number of years ago, and I got the copyright from Deputy Alan Farrell. I gave it to schools. A huge number of schools came back to me afterwards, asking me to print more for parents. The amount of feedback I got back from parents was huge. I was blown away by it, because they did not understand Snapchat, Facebook, and maybe less Twitter. There were social media platforms that they were not aware of, as well as the meanings and the dangers of them.

The witnesses are dead right when they talk about parents. Parents have spoken to me about their children being on social media at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. I would not be able to operate the next day if I was up until 2 a.m. or 3 a.m., or lying awake in bed at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m., let alone a student who needs sleep. This is a huge problem. Could the witnesses give a tip on what this committee could do, or what could be done, to make parents more aware of the dangers of social media because I can tell them that parents' sons or daughters are not going to tell them about its dangers? They have to educate themselves. It is difficult to leave it up to the school principal or the board of management to make the parents aware of it, or to run public meetings, or whatever. Is there anything specific that the witnesses would like to add that would make parents more aware of the dangers of social media?

Ms Rachel O'Connor

It starts with creating awareness. I am absolutely banging my head against a wall. If I organise an information session for families in the middle of the day, working families cannot attend. If I organise it at 7 p.m., it is bedtime or dinner time and parents cannot attend. If I organise it later at night, there will be people who work night shifts.

It is not possible to get everybody. The sign-up to parental talks on issues other than subject choice, etc., is very low. The committee can start by creating awareness. There are wonderful resources available, such as Webwise. I know from teachers on my staff who are parents and attend the cyber-bullying training we provide for our students that their minds are blown by how many new developments there are every year and, aside from all the positives, that there are so many different dangers and threats for teenagers. The important thing is going back to the simple guidelines and etiquette around the use of the online space. Parents should be involved in their child's online world, as they are very much entitled to be, although I do not know whether many of them realise they have that entitlement. It is almost like their children are living in the physical world at home at the dinner table but they also live in this online space of which the parents are completely unaware. I have encountered many cases where I have a mammy telling me she has access to all her son's accounts, but she does not have access to the fake accounts he has set up. There is a trust and communication piece there between mammy and child. It is a massive cultural thing in respect of which we are playing catch-up but, by creating awareness, we can catch up. We are trotting behind our teenagers but the committee can create awareness and it is a very powerful and privileged place to be.

I will allow other members to come back in. Ms O'Connor referred to opportunities for younger people to become teachers and that most current teachers may come from a middle-class background. I presume she was referring to primary and post primary. That is very concerning because I think everybody should have an opportunity to follow their dream in life, whatever that may be. I know education can be seen as expensive. I ask Ms O'Connor to flesh out that point a little.

In autumn, the committee will be starting a conversation on leaving certificate reform. I believe the leaving certificate is totally outdated. This idea of having to put everything into three hours in June after six years of secondary education is crazy, particularly when one considers the pressure that puts on students. This has been talked about for years but the talking should stop. We will definitely be bringing in the witnesses' organisations when we are doing that work on leaving certificate reform. I ask the witnesses to comment briefly on those points.

Mr. John Irwin

On the first point, we have to acknowledge that there are access programmes at third level to accommodate people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds or those who may be challenged in terms of getting a college place and may find it extremely difficult. In terms of the current situation with regard to post primary, there are educational values in having a two-year professional master of education, PME, programme but it is extremely costly. It is quite a journey to go through a four-year degree, followed by a two-year PME. There is a need to provide an opportunity for trainee teachers undertaking a PME, particularly those in the second year of the course, to earn money. These are costly programmes and, on top of the cost of the programmes, the students have to be able to support themselves. We do not want there to be anything that will act as a barrier to good people who want to come into education. I know access programmes work to a degree but a lot of the opportunity dissipates once one goes into post-graduate education. A two-year post-graduate course is a significant additional cost, particularly when one is not earning. We have talked to many students on PME programmes. Before Covid, they were financing themselves by working part-time jobs in pubs at night or working in shops and everything else. They could be net contributors to the system when they are in the second year of a PME.

I am sure Ms O'Connor will agree that there is a need for greater access to PME programmes because accessing teachers in specific subject areas can be very challenging. There will have to be consideration of trying to promote diversity in the teaching profession. Mr. White described the current teacher cohort as predominantly Irish, white and middle class. I do not have the exact figures in that regard. It may be worthwhile carrying out a survey on the issue. There is a need to incentivise people from other cultures and backgrounds to engage in education. One has to incentivise it and make it attractive for them such that they see it is a profession in which they can have a meaningful career. When we were dealing with the Ombudsman recently, who has responsibility for human rights, he referred to the idea of a student being able to see his or her image somewhere within the school. Is the school a mirror reflecting what the students are? On some occasions, unfortunately, that might not be the case. We have to consider ways of incentivising participation in teaching. It may be worth looking creatively at the two-year PME, which is there for good and valid educational reasons, in the context of providing opportunities for people to make some sort of financial living out of it, particularly in the second year of the course. Those are some of the issues in that regard.

As regards the leaving certificate, I could not agree more with the Chairman. It needs to be reformed. If the pandemic has shown us anything, it is the fragility of the leaving certificate. When it was knocked for six last year, we were suddenly left scrambling. Lessons probably have been learned in the context of this year, with accredited grades and attempt to streamline the exam a little, but there really is a need to consider reforming it. There should be consideration of the need to semesterise or to have alternative forms of assessment, as well as of how inclusive the assessment models are in the first place.

I thank Mr. Irwin. A parent to whom I spoke in recent days told me that his son told him it must have been the most boring childhood ever when there was no Fortnite or iPads. That says a lot about students and the concerns we have.

Does Deputy Ó Cathasaigh wish to come back in?

I will take the opportunity to do so. I have been listening to the discussion for the past two hours and have found it riveting. To pick up on the last point made by Mr. Irwin, I think Mr. White slightly misunderstood my earlier point with regard to patronage. I know from personal experience that children from different faith backgrounds are more than welcome in all primary schools but I worry that in 90% of primary schools such children do not see themselves reflected at the top of the classroom as a result of the patronage model. I was struck in a humorous way by some of the earlier advice for parents. I once told a parent during a parent-teacher meeting that I was far better at dispensing parenting advice before I had children. That goes a little bit to what the Chairman was talking about. I am holding back Fortnite in my house but that will not last much longer.

I have a wider question regarding the influence of social media other than in the cyber-bullying space but going to the issue of young adult mental health and the unrealistic expectations created through social media. Ms O'Connor referred to mental health services in the south east. It is worth noting there are no eating disorder beds anywhere in the south east either. Do those two things feed off each another? Do bullying and cyber-bullying also feed into that level of unrealistic expectation that our young people are being fed through social media?

Ms Rachel O'Connor

I am happy to comment first. I see daily the impact social media can have, particularly on young girls in the context of body image. It is a travesty that the only place to treat eating disorders is a private hospital in Dublin. There is no particular specific help for young people in that regard these days. I see the impact on young boys in terms of pressure. In my experience, it is boys spending time online in the evenings, engaged in gaming, and that is the most negative impact of social media. The interaction between girls can be very negative. I refer to the exposure to what is the ideal body shape, the ideal body image, eating disorders and self harm. The incidence of self harm has increased exponentially in schools across the country. It is a really worrying trend and my fear as a school principal is that we do our best in terms of prevention but, when it comes to intervention, we do not have the supports outside school to back up what we do within schools. There is a massive gap in supports there. I refer to the use of social media. Social media is not the issue - social media is here to stay. Rather, it is about the use of social media and the responsible use of social media.

I think Mr. White said they have half an hour per week for social, personal and health education, SPHE, on the primary curriculum. We have one hour. Within that, we have great programmes, like Be In Ctrll and Lockers. They should be provided for every student in the country on a roll-out basis in a meaningful, non-tokenistic and impactful way. Responsible use of social media is the key here.

I thank the witness and the Chair for allowing me to come back in again.

Maybe ten or 12 years ago there was drug testing in post-primary schools. Students or parents would sign that their sons or daughters would voluntarily take a drug test. It was not mandatory; it was totally voluntarily. I remember tabling a couple of questions to the Department of Education. The issue of drugs a big problem in terms of peer pressure and bullying. I would be interested to hear Ms O’Connor’s views on this.

I would like to ask Mr. White about another issue. A huge number of school meals programmes have been rolled out across the country, specifically in the Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS, schools. I have no doubt that this is an opportunity to pick up eating disorders among students earlier on. The company supplies the food and the student gets it. It is almost up to the teacher to see if there is an issue, and maybe that is unfair. Maybe this is where it comes back into emotional therapeutic supports. A teacher could say to the person giving the emotional therapeutic supports that a child in his or her class is not eating, or that they might eat today, but might not eat tomorrow. I would be interested in his views on this.

Voluntary drugs testing is a hot issue. Could Ms O'Connor briefly comment on this? I will allow Senator Byrne to come back in for another question after this. Will Ms O'Connor reply briefly to that? I will ask Mr. White to reply to my question on eating disorders.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

This is an interesting aspect of school life. My immediate reaction is that if it is voluntary, someone who is misusing or abusing substances will not engage. It is important that we have substance misuse and abuse policies up to date. Again, it is back to information, to creating awareness and to getting buy-in from parents. There is a space here in terms of the size of schools. If one is in a school with more than 1,000 pupils, it will be much harder to regulate and to keep an eye on everybody in the building. Supports need to be put in place, particularly for larger schools, where these kinds of issues can manifest themselves in an insidious way in the background. Very often, schools have a good handle on issues where drugs are involved, and strong substance misuse policies. Again, it comes back to awareness and getting in early, in first year. Again, parent buy-in is important. The Deputy has an interesting proposal.

I call Mr. White.

Mr. Damian White

School meals are dispensed in classrooms. They are eaten while the teacher in the same room. It would not be long before a teacher would notice, because teachers notice. As teachers, it is part of our DNA to watch out for things. We see trends. We may see somebody slipping food into his or her bag, or whatever, to hide it and so on. A teacher would note it one day and bring it up if he or she saw it happening again. The teacher might whisper to a parent and ask why a student is not eating. The teacher would not embarrass the child. It is part of what the teacher does and does naturally. I was a school principal but we were not on the school meals programme before I left to take up this job. However, if somebody was not eating his or her lunch, a teacher might whisper that to me, as principal. I might call in that parent and so on. It is one of those soft skills a teacher has; he or she spots a lot. When one is on yard duty, one sees many things from a fair distance. One logs them and deals with them as they come up. Teachers certainly pay a part in spotting trends like that.

Would Senator Byrne to come back in? There are about three minutes left.

I will be very quick, Chair. With the Sylvia Plath reference earlier, I wish all in the White household, and everyone facing exams, the very best. I want to end in a positive note on the role of students. There are often negative connotations when talking about mental health. However, there are huge positive roles that students and young people play. I am conscious of what we see in the BT Young Scientist & Technology Exhibition, in Young Social Innovators, in Young Social Entrepreneurs, YSE, in Comhairle na nÓg, with the student councils in place and with the central roles of students themselves. Even when we had that engagement with Kinsale and Tallaght Community Schools, they both talked about the idea of young people as ambassadors. In Wexford, we had the Meitheal programme in the past. We need to stress positive mental health and the role of young people and students.

Mr. Damian White

Our second level colleagues might be too shy to say it, although I am not so sure, knowing Mr. Irwin as I do, but I attended a virtual graduation the other day and it was an outstanding ceremony. I was almost moved to tears with pride in all the children and in how they spoke of their school, the fond times they had in it, in the good programmes they did and in the relationships they had. I am talking about Killina Presentation Secondary School in County Offaly. It is an outstanding school and is representative of schools across the country. I will always vouch for teachers at primary level, but I will certainly vouch for our colleagues at second level and for how they have looked out for their students during the last dark and difficult 15 or 16 months.

Mr. John Irwin

We are coming to the end of a two-year collaboration with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, University College Cork, UCC, and the Student Voice project. We had our education conference recently. To listen to the students presenting their stories to adults was remarkable. We should have great hope for the future. I believe the area of the student voice is potentially transformative across schools. Ms O’Connor is a great supporter of it, and they encourage it greatly in Ramsgrange Community School. When one talks about trying to develop a positive school culture, this is where one gets the buy-in. Students feel they are being listened to and that their views are being taken into consideration in terms of decision-making. It does not mean that they get everything they want, but that there is positive engagement and it forms part of the decision-making process in schools.

Ms Rachel O'Connor

In conclusion, I would like to point out that students are our core business. They are our bread and butter. That is why we are in the jobs that we are in. I would go further and say that it is not only about the student voice, but the learner experience in the classroom and in our schools. That is where the feedback comes in both ways. If they are not engaged and not part of it, we are up to nothing at the end of the day. I thank the Senator for pointing that out.

I thank Senator Byrne.

In conclusion, I ask both organisations, the primary principals and the secondary school principals, to go back to their respective principals to say well done, and I know I speak for every member of the committee. It has been a difficult number of months since September of 2020 or, even, since March of last year, during Covid-19. They did a fantastic job in getting our schools reopened back in September and continuing right through, although there was a blip in January. Well done to all the school principals for their work and dedication on that.

We mentioned the school meals programme and we wrote to the Minister for Education, Deputy Norma Foley. We are yet to get a response with her considered views on the roll out of school meals for national schools. With the agreement of members, I will ask the clerk to the committee to write to the Minister again looking for a reply.

Ms O'Connor spoke about Webwise. Ben Holmes, another Wexford man from FCJ Secondary School Bunclody, represented the youth advisory panel of Webwise at the committee. It was very informative on the work it has done. Being a Wexford man, I compliment Ms O’Connor on the fantastic school she runs down in Ramsgrange. She represents the most south-easterly point of County Wexford.

I no doubt speak on behalf of Senator Byrne as well regarding what I have said about Ms O'Connor and all her staff.

Again, I thank Mr. White, Ms O'Connor and Mr. Irwin for attending today's meeting. The committee has had many meetings but this has been one of the most informative it has had over recent months, specifically on school bullying and the module we are working on. The witnesses have represented all their schools very well today and I thank them for that.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.41 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 8 June 2021.
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