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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 29 Jun 2021

Traveller Education: Discussion

On behalf of the committee I would like to welcome Mr. Bernard Joyce, director of the Irish Traveller Movement, Ms Tracey Reilly, Pavee Point, and Ms Maria Joyce, co-ordinator of the National Traveller Women's Forum. The witnesses are here today to discuss Traveller education with reference to inequality, the digital divide and the impact of reduced timetables. Before we begin, on behalf of the committee I would like to congratulate Ms Reilly on being awarded a first class honours degree in community and youth work with Maynooth University. This is an outstanding achievement in its own right and makes her an important role model for Traveller children and other Traveller learners. It demonstrates that, given the opportunity, Travellers can excel in third level education.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite Mr. Joyce to make an opening statement, followed by Ms Reilly and Ms Joyce. The statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a six minute slot, and that will allow the member to ask the questions and the witnesses to respond within that six minute slot. The committee will publish the opening statement on its website following today's meeting.

Before we begin I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. As the witnesses are giving evidence remotely from a place outside of the parliamentary precincts, as such they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does and they have been advised of this by the clerk.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I ask Mr. Joyce to make his opening statement, followed by the other witnesses. They have four minutes each.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

Thank you, Chair, Deputies and Senator. The Irish Traveller Movement welcomes the opportunity to meet with the committee on matters relating to Traveller education with reference to inequality, the digital divide and the impact of reduced timetables. The Irish Traveller Movement is mandated by our members to bring forward policy related to matters of national policy structures and in this context, we sit on the education working group sub-group to the national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy, NTRIS. This is co-ordinated under the Department of Education. However, during 2020 the committee met only twice due to the Department’s demands across mainstream education.

Impacts from cuts to Traveller education supports in 2008 have taken more than a decade to erase and there is little evidence to date of changes in terms of investment in Traveller education. In 2019 almost 1 million pupils were enrolled nationally in primary and post-primary education in Ireland and of these more than 11,000 were Traveller pupils, which is a tiny number in comparison. More than 3,000 of those students were in second level and it is estimated that 300 Travellers took the leaving certificate in 2020, half took the traditional exam and half took the vocational or applied certificate.

These numbers are important because they indicate that achieving greater ambition for Travellers in education should not be a substantial problem, or require massive investment. What it requires is drive, ambition and the implementation of the long-awaited national Traveller education strategy across primary, post-primary and higher and further education. It also requires dedicated staff and resources to co-ordinate it. Full consultation with Traveller organisations is critical to ensure closer links between schools and families in any new plan.

The Minister, Deputy Harris, announced ring-fenced funding of €300,000, in recognition of lower than expected outcomes under targeted schemes running in the previous three years, for transfer to and progression within higher education.

While this is welcome in terms of retention in post-primary it must also be given a priority focus to defeat early school leaving. The report of research commissioned by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth established a baseline of the experiences of Travellers and Roma in school. It has not been published. It should be expedited and actioned now.

In 2021, €16 million was allocated in grants to schools in the Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS, programme but only half of all Traveller pupils are in DEIS schools. The capitation grant for Travellers was marginally enhanced last year, but well below the level of other named groups. Overall, there are no ring-fenced moneys allocated to Traveller primary and post-primary education.

I want to bring up the matter of reduced timetables. Reduced timetables for Travellers is widespread. Department guidelines for schools were not advanced in 2020, as planned. When they are advanced, they will require greater oversight by an independent central body with responsibility, such as Tusla or the school inspectorate. This is not currently planned for. We know of one southern-based school where there are approximately 60 Travellers who are on a reduced timetable. The practice needs to be completely eradicated, with a new approach adapted towards retention and progression for Travellers. Those schools should be held responsible for taking the easy option and for operating under a policy that shows little value to Traveller education and learning.

The specific educational disadvantages caused by Covid-19 needs immediate redress. The impact on Traveller pupils taking their leaving certificate examinations in 2020 and 2021 are unknown. Inequity in accessing broadband and digital supports was acknowledged by Government but Travellers were not named in supports applied to vulnerable pupils. Without adequate data collection, the extent of problems encountered can only be anticipated, without an action plan to make up for those affected.

Addressing interculturalism and anti-racism in schools and in teacher training is critical. The Teaching Council is due to publish a report. However, the module should be included as mandatory to the continued professional development of all school teachers. Expediting the anti-bullying research report commissioned by the Department of Education is important now. Applying a mandatory requirement to current anti-bullying guidelines and recommendations should be featured in actions going forward. Ensuring the continuation of work initiated towards curriculum inclusion of Traveller culture and history by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, is critical. However, there are no plans for it beyond its first phase.

I am happy to indicate other recommendations in respect of the matters raised here. I thank the committee and I look forward to the further discussion.

I thank Mr. Joyce for his contribution. The next speaker is Ms Reilly.

Ms Tracey Reilly

I will start off by thanking the committee for congratulating me on the first class honours degree. I would also like to congratulate Mr. David Joyce, who is Marie Joyce’s nephew, on finishing his master’s degree in teaching, also with first class honours.

I would like to thank the committee on behalf of the Pavee Point Traveller and Roma Centre, which welcomes the opportunity to make a submission to the committee on Traveller education with reference to inequality, digital divide, and the impact of reduced timetables. Pavee Point is a national, non-governmental organisation that promotes the realisation of human rights and equality for Travellers and Roma in Ireland.

From our start in 1985, Pavee Point Traveller and Roma Centre has given central importance to pursuing full and equal participation for Travellers throughout the education system. This was, and is, based on our understanding of education’s key importance to human dignity and rights. Our work more recently expanded to include Roma. Now, in the field of education, we are firmly committed to the system change that is essential.

The Department of Education's guidelines on Traveller education in primary schools and post-primary schools states that its central policy aim is the meaningful participation and highest attainment of the Traveller child so that, in common with the children of the nation, he or she may live a full life as a child and realise his or her full potential as a unique individual, proud of and affirmed in his or her identity as a Traveller and a citizen of Ireland.

The system change Pavee Point believes essential needs to be reflected as a key component of the national strategy on Traveller education, which was promised in the programme for Government. This strategy should cover all levels and issues. It needs to be developed in association with Traveller and Roma organisations, to have clear targets and timelines, and resources, and to continue to be monitored and implemented in partnership with Traveller organisations.

According to enrolment figures, Travellers transfer from primary school into the secondary school and begin dropping out in later years. Across the first three years of the secondary cycle, about 74% of Travellers aged 12 to 15 years are enrolled. The dramatic drop is at the point of transfer to senior cycle, in which about 30% of Travellers aged 16 to 19 years are enrolled.

Since 2007-08 the Higher Education Authority, HEA, has conducted an equal access survey of each cohort of new entrants, tracking enrolments from marginal populations, including Travellers. In 2015, it published a National Plan for Equity of Access to Higher Education 2015-2021. In the action plan for increasing Traveller participation in education from 2019 to 2021, the targeted numbers for increasing Traveller participation has had some modest success. It has been a useful tool in the promotion of Traveller education and ambition. Such targets and associated special measures are needed at all educational levels.

Further education and training participation from 2019 to 2020 included 1,527 Travellers and 431 Roma. More than 40% were in adult literacy groups or in Youthreach. Almost 60% were under 25 years of age. Some 43% were men, while 57% women. Of those enrolled, 88% partially or fully completed a course in 2019, and 60% of those who completed a certified course achieved. Travellers comprise 0.6% to 1% of Irish society, but 0.1% of new entrants to third level institutions. The disaggregated data are essential to track baseline information and progress in achieving targets and objectives, but it is important to understand that there are real people behind these figures.

I am one of the 110 students who are enrolled in universities, according to the HEA 2019-20 data. I was an early school leaver. I left school after primary school, due to isolation, exclusion, and marginalisation. After a few days' absence, I was asked what the point was in me coming back, as I would never amount to anything. I left that school crushed. I went back to third level education as a mature student and successfully completed my degree in May of this year with a first class honours, despite the challenges and barriers that Covid-19 created and on top of the challenges and barriers that pre-existed long before Covid-19.

On the digital divide and reduced timetables, our previous submission to the committee discussed a number of concerns for Travellers in education. These have been further exacerbated by the conditions created by Covid-19. The concerns include inequalities associated with the marginalisation and discrimination that existed pre-Covid-19 for Traveller students across every level of the education system. The reality of ongoing prejudice, racism and discrimination against Travellers, including in the education system, should not be ignored or underestimated.

Unconscious bias, an important issue that needs to be addressed for a variety of discriminations, needs to be understood as potentially masking real underlying racism and its effects and the indirect discrimination described in our equality legislation. This is of particular concern for Traveller students completing examinations, including the leaving certificate.

Another concerning issue is the implementation of remote learning and the difficult impacts of the digital divide, which Covid-19 has exposed. This is presenting as an issue for Travellers, in terms of access and participation in primary, post-primary and higher education. These concerns were particularly highlighted in the national education forums that Pavee Point organised in association with the National Traveller Women’s Forum, NTWF, to examine the education implications of Covid-19 for Travellers and Roma.

This year’s forum report indicates that the issues continue and can have long-term consequences.

Traveller students were left at an extreme disadvantage given the issue of access to IT facilities, high costs of broadband, lack of access to devices, resources, books, libraries and private quiet spaces to study. As someone who has spent the last few years studying in Maynooth during the pandemic, I know that better than anyone. Lack of broadband is a serious concern for those living on halting sites and it may have had an impact on the ability of some to register for the predicted grade process for the leaving certificate. Online learning presents its own difficulties, including for Traveller and Roma parents, in respect of language or literacy skills. It also holds the possibility of missing lectures due to bad Wi-Fi, inability to ask questions and difficulties with engagement.

I must interrupt Ms Reilly there as she has exceeded the four minutes. The rest of the statement will be published on the website. I have no doubt that all members have read her opening statement and will ask questions on it. I call Ms Joyce who has four minutes.

Ms Maria Joyce

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on Traveller education with reference to inequality, the digital divide and the impact of reduced timetables. At the outset, I also congratulate Tracey Reilly on her first class honours degree. I also congratulate my nephew, David Joyce, who received first class honours in his master's last week. This shows that when Travellers are given the education opportunities, they do not just get through it but excel.

I am Maria Joyce, co-ordinator with the National Traveller Women’s Forum, the national network of Traveller women’s organisations. I will start by rejecting any perception that Travellers have no interest in education. We have an interest and an ambition, especially for our children. As a community we also have a collective experience of discriminatory and segregated education provision, which took many forms both formal and informal, and that fundamentally was underpinned by racism. This negative legacy of segregation remains for Traveller parents and there continue to be low expectations of Traveller learners, as well as racism within the education system, which has a detrimental impact on participation in and outcomes from education for Traveller children.

Systemic change is required and that needs to be set out in the promised Traveller education strategy. That strategy needs to set out a clear vision for Traveller education that is underpinned by equality. Resources, targets and monitorable actions are also needed.

In the context of the current pandemic and school closures over the past two academic years, there is a real risk of deepening educational disadvantage among Travellers. School closures and online learning were a challenging disruption for Traveller learners. There were great expectations that everything could be moved online and that every child must have access to Wi-Fi and equipment or at the very least a phone. Many Traveller families had limited or in most cases a complete lack of IT equipment necessary to stay connected with school and college and to submit work. In our submission to the committee, we outline recommendations including the need for targeted resources, monitoring those resources for impact and the equitable roll-out of the national broadband strategy.

Reduced timetables are still a major concern for us. This system is operating without any guidelines or monitoring. The Department of Education has developed guidelines and plans to circulate them to schools in September 2021 as far as we are aware. We need those guidelines to be rolled out, which should be done by way of a departmental circular. We have continually highlighted that the guidelines must be accompanied by strict timelines and clear processes. Supports must be put in place and rigorous monitoring will be needed to ensure that poor practice with reduced timetables is eradicated. The inspectorate should also play a role and that monitoring. Children have a right to an education and reduced timetables deny them that right. The reduction of hours in school is often the wrong response to the needs of children when an increase in supports is often what is required.

It is important to acknowledge the achievements of Travellers who have progressed through to higher education. There are Travellers who are working in and making contributions to education at policy level and in teaching. That number is set to increase in coming years. As Ms Reilly has said, the specific inclusion of Travellers in the new equity of access plan and the naming of Travellers as a target group in all access initiatives would be crucial developments.

We welcome this opportunity to give input to the committee today but it is frustrating to look back at the recommendations in the 2019 reports of the Joint Committee on Education and Skills, which have not been progressed as those present who sat on that committee are aware.

I will finish with a question for the committee members. What will they do to ensure we are not back again in two years' time having the same discussion?

I thank Ms Joyce. I call Deputy Ó Laoghaire who has six minutes, followed by Senator Dolan.

I thank all the witnesses for appearing before the committee this afternoon. The presentations have clearly highlighted the enormous obstacles that Travellers face in accessing education, whether that is early years, primary, secondary or higher and further education. The playing field is not even remotely level. They face a huge uphill battle. I congratulate Ms Reilly on her recent achievement and everyone who has had to climb up that hill and to achieve what they have done against an enormous prevailing wind.

I have a question for Mr. Joyce. I recall the 2008 cut, which was heavily criticised at the time as being a really cynical cut for what is a relatively small part of the budget and caused enormous harm. Has the funding returned to the 2008 level? Where does it need to go from here?

My next question is for Ms Reilly. What jumps out at me is that 70% of Travellers are involved in secondary education up to the age of 15 or 16, at which point there is an enormous drop-off. What is causing that and what can we do to fix it? I know she identified the issue of not all Travellers going to DEIS schools. Is it a question of ensuring that all schools have access to school completion? Is increased investment in home school community liaison required? Do we need Traveller-specific school completion programmes? They may already exist but I am not aware of them. What are the causes and what are the actions we need to take?

I also have a question for Ms Joyce. Educational disadvantage for Travellers and others is built into the system and it can be seen at all tiers, including in higher and further education but it starts at a very young age. Like other disadvantaged children, in many instances Traveller children started from behind at a very young age. What is the level of participation of Traveller children in early years education? Do we need to do more to make pre-primary early years education more accessible and more easily available? Cost, obviously, has a big impact.

I need to suspend the committee for less than a minute to address a technical issue here in the committee rooms. I will allow the Deputy latitude at the end to come in with an additional question.

Sitting suspended at 3.59 p.m. and resumed at 4 p.m.

We are back on track. I am not sure who was taking the questions from Deputy Ó Laoghaire.

I had a question for each of the witnesses but Mr. Joyce was going first.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

I thank the Deputy and it is good that he allocated a question for each of us. There is the question of whether the cuts were sinister and where the investment should go now. At a time of such need in education and during the past session, there was progress being made in terms of investment and supports, along with having liaison teachers between schools, parents and pupils. There was some investment and approximately 40 visiting teaching services but pretty much overnight, they were gone, with no replacement, plan or strategic approach. There have been other cuts as well.

That was an indictment of the treatment of the community, which had already been left behind for decades within education. It was now at the front line of these cuts. We have not progressed much since that time in terms of those investments. There has not been the same investment in 2021 as there would have been at that time, despite the need and demand created by issues such as early leaving and transfers from primary to post-primary education. People talk about third level but that is only 1% of the total Traveller population. We are not talking about 5% or 10%. It is nothing to take pride in and we want that to become the exception rather than the norm. We want to get to a position where it is normalised for people to get access and opportunities to access third level. This will absolutely not be done, given the lack of investment and budgets currently available.

At present, there is no budget. We could not say what the budget would be because we do not know. There is no dedicated budget in the Department. We can say that if there was investment, there is a need to ramp up the supports that specifically target Traveller children. There must be supports through initiatives. There is a pilot initiative under way but we must ensure that right across the country, in every county, there are supports to work with schools, parents and young people in supporting them getting from primary to post-primary education.

Ms Reilly could probably explore this further but at present, the investment goes to the school. In the case of a DEIS school, for example, the investment goes to the school. We have been seeking for the investment to be in the young person, regardless of what school he or she is in. That is whether the young person is in primary or secondary education. We must invest in their needs and ensure they can be supported. Currently, half of the Traveller children are not in DEIS schools and they may not be getting any support.

That probably answers the Deputy's question. We are seeking ramped-up investment in the budget and a follow-the-child policy when it comes to education.

Ms Tracey Reilly

Although 70% of young people are enrolled, that is not the same as 70% participation, to be honest, or getting an outcome. Special measures are needed and should be linked in with Traveller organisations. The Deputy put a question on the 2008 cuts to Mr. Joyce and I can comment as well. Returning to 2008 participation is not the same as the cuts being reversed when Covid-19 struck, to be honest.

Ms Maria Joyce

Before coming to the specific question, I will make a brief comment on the cuts. Since resources were cut between 2008 and 2010, they have not been restored in any way, shape or means. Local Traveller organisations have picked up much of the support work on education and they are not resourced to do so when it comes to supporting parents and children. That has had a knock-on impact as well.

One of the key points is we have seen visible rowing back on some of the progress made up to 2008 and 2010 with some of the investment that had taken place. It was not all an example of best practice in how the investment was done but at least there were specific resources. We want from 100% transfer rates from primary to secondary but as a result of those cuts and over the subsequent years, we know, anecdotally, that we no longer have 100% transfer rates from primary to secondary level.

This is a big indictment, as children are still under the age for the legal requirement to attend school. Traveller children are slipping through the cracks and not all schools have the commitment to follow up and ensure Traveller children are transferring and that the work is being done on the ground. It is an indictment of the lack of targeted resources going into Traveller education.

Resources are essential in implementation but so is a very clear vision to be set out by the Department of Education. As long as we lack a Traveller education strategy going across all levels of Traveller education, through early years, primary, post-primary and third level, we will not see the progress we need to.

On the early years element, there is currently a consultation with the Department with responsibility for children and equality; I will not go into its full name as my mind will get dizzy with all the initials. We have inputted to that. The key points we have made are that early years processes are not delivering for all Traveller children. There must be a fully funded public model of free early years childcare and education to ensure this can deliver. Local Traveller organisations should have specific supports around early years education in preschools and those models must be supported, resourced and expanded. There should be a free public model with clear engagement strategies and engagement with the Traveller community and its organisations about these spaces.

It is recognised that not all Traveller children who can access early years education are doing so. There were consultations with different stakeholders who were not just Traveller organisations, and these recognised that discriminatory practices exclude some Traveller children from taking up places. One of the fundamental points, critical to all of this, relates to engagement with early years education and childcare in the sector.

An emerging issue relates to the privatising of early years education and the parental needs, as opposed to the child's needs. Children whose parents are not working or in education will have reduced free hours available to them for early years care, which is an exclusionary practice when it comes to the most marginalised and disadvantaged children. We can put that in the context of how important is early years education to lifelong learning, so it must be got right as well.

That slot was a little over 12 minutes so I have allowed the Deputy as much latitude as possible.

I ask the witnesses to please keep an eye on the clock because I want to keep the speaking slots as fair as possible. The next speakers are Senator Dolan followed by Deputy Jim O'Callaghan. I will cut the witnesses off and ask them to stop after the six or seven minutes.

I welcome Ms Reilly, Ms Joyce and Mr. Joyce. Well done to Ms Reilly on her exams and receiving the degrees. It is great altogether and such excitement. Mr. Joyce and I met just last week where we had an engagement with Young Fine Gael, which reached out and spoke with the Irish Traveller Movement. It was about issues affecting Traveller youth in particular and some of the concerns have been raised here again today. It was really lovely to get that opportunity to speak with Mr Joyce and to hear his concerns. I have also spoken with Senator Flynn on the amendments that are coming through the Traveller Culture and History in Education Bill 2018. As the Fine Gael spokesperson for further and higher education, research, innovation and science, I am very supportive of this.

Mr. Joyce's submission also referred to unconscious bias, which I too have spoken about previously. It is crucial that we all understand we have biases. It is about how we manage and deal with it. Over the last weeks and months, our committee has been dealing with the issue of bullying and how children can be picked out if they are seen as different. It is very important that we have early educational measures in there from primary school time.

I am conscious of my time and am keeping an eye on the clock. We are here to discuss inequality, the digital divide and reduced timetables. Mr. Joyce referred to 1 million students and he is so right. There are some 4,000 schools altogether, with 3,200 being primary schools and the rest being secondary schools. Mr. Joyce said that 11,000 students are in primary school and that perhaps only 3,000 go to secondary school. Mr. Joyce was looking at that drop-off in numbers as well, and I will open this topic up to other speakers too. What type of measures do the witnesses believe would encourage more retention of children going into secondary schools? It is about those transition points from primary to secondary and from junior cycle to the senior cycle. What measures could be put in place or what role models and how could we support that more? As we already have children who are in learning, how do we keep them?

I understand that sometimes there are cultural differences at different ages, and particularly with young marriage and so on in Traveller culture. Opening this up, the witnesses have referred to further education and training, FET. Ms Reilly spoke more on this and Mr. Joyce spoke about the drop-off in numbers. On further and higher education, and particularly for young women and Traveller women, how does Ms Reilly believe that we could encourage women in their early 20s to come back in possibly to do apprenticeship programmes or to engage in FET? The college of further education in Ballinasloe has nursing and healthcare courses and it is really popular. We have had a lot of students coming through there, including students from Traveller backgrounds. It has been very positive and popular.

On the digital divide, reference was made to a number of supports and funding that came through from the Minister, Deputy Harris, of €300,000. We have also had funding for laptops at third level under the digital divide. Some €15 million has been allocated for students with disadvantage. Access to space is also a very big issue, which was mentioned by Ms Reilly.

I very much appreciate what Ms Joyce said about the early years education during her last contribution with Deputy Ó Laoghaire. A lot has been done by this Government and the previous Government into looking at affordable childcare and how to support families getting affordable childcare. In this instance, it is about how we support people getting back into education. A number of points have been given but is there anything else we can do to encourage older people coming back into education again? I put those questions to Mr. Joyce first then Ms Reilly and Ms Joyce.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

It was lovely to meet with Senator Dolan and Young Fine Gael. It was the first time that we were ever invited into that space and it was a very welcome conversation and discussion. There was good energy and momentum.

On the question of role models within second-level education, Ms Reilly is here and has done her degree, as have Ms Joyce and many others, including myself. The fact that we are sitting here and having this conversation gives credence to the importance of education and why it is important. On the other side, for many of us it has been a personal challenge going through the education system. In some cases there is a legacy around education and the past. It is a dark history in how Travellers were segregated from wider society with specialised schools and structures. It was not progressive in any way. Even now there are examples of this when one considers Canada and the Native Americans. Travellers were very much treated in a similar fashion. We were removed from the general population, put into Traveller schools and taught very much around the settled education. When we move further forward it is important to remember this and that we do not want to revert back to that. It is not just about role models it about the opportunities, the supports and the structures that are in place for people who want to go on to third level education, or for those who want to finish second level education. This can be done by putting in investment and structures, and by making the environment within the schools a welcome, inclusive and supportive environment. It is hard enough to learn but it is a lot more challenging when a person is facing bullying because of his or her identity, if the student is not learning about his or her culture and history and feels like an outsider within the school. We want to try to reverse that and make the school a more inclusive place for every child including members of the Traveller community. That is very important.

There can be other challenges with regard to gender and there is a need to make sure that young women are supported within education and to make sure that the structures are there. People have this kind of notion around education or being in a particular position and that a person cannot have both. One can have an identity and an education, we do not pick one or the other, and a person can have a career on top of that. This is why it is important to have people like Senator Flynn, and others who are studying law so we are not tunnelled into a particular path, we are in the public, the private and the third sectors and that opportunities are available to all of us.

Perhaps Mr. Joyce will allow the other two witnesses to give a reply to the Senator.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

I thank the Senator, I hope that answers her questions.

I thank Mr. Joyce.

Ms Tracey Reilly

A few of our requirements and our views are very similar to Mr. Joyce's, to be honest. When it comes to role models I am hoping that Travellers will look at the likes of Senator Eileen Flynn, me and other people who have come through it. It comes with personal challenges and perhaps you can think of it being a cultural thing, with Traveller women or men leaving school early because of marriage, for example, being in the culture. This can be true at times but also not true. I left school at a very young age due to isolation and marginalisation. I was put into a special class for additional supports that I actually did not need. I was missing out on valuable subjects. It is about trying to empower people to put them back into education and to get them to see the value of education. With all my ability I will do that going forward if I can. We still cannot forget the experiences those young people have been through within the education system. Within school I was told "What would you come back for? It is not as if you are going to do well." That left me with very low confidence and I never went back. To be honest, I was never looked for to come back into school or anything like that. All of those experiences have a cost and I am sure that many other Travellers can see themselves reflected in them too. It is hard to get around that and to encourage them to go back into education. There is still a lot of high hope of that, perhaps by linking through organisations that have links to the young people out on the ground. It can happen. It happened to me. I was very much empowered and encouraged by courses that I did with Pavee Point, which led me onto the pathway into the National University of Ireland at Maynooth. It is definitely possible. We cannot forget, however, what has happened in the past.

I will call Ms Joyce back in but I must be very strict on the time because we must be out of here at 5.30 p.m. There is a two hour limit for all committee meetings because of Covid. I will let her back in. I apologise if I come across as interrupting but as Chair, I am trying to be fair to everybody and allow everyone in.

I thank Mr. Joyce, Ms Reilly and Ms Joyce for coming in to the committee today. I extend my congratulations to Ms Reilly on her very important achievement on securing a first class honours degree. Mr. Joyce spoke on the national Traveller education strategy. We all know we need one. What would he like to see in that strategy in order that Irish Travellers can benefit fully from the Irish education system?

Mr. Bernard Joyce

A strategy was there previously but unfortunately, it was not implemented. We are a long way off that. We would like it to include investment and clear, tangible actions in terms of supports from primary to post-primary. Some say it is from cradle to grave and that it requires a whole holistic approach in education. Education has to be tailored towards needs as opposed to trying to fit Travellers into a system. We do not just fit in like a parcel into a box. At the moment, we are being asked to engage in a system that does not meet the needs in some cases. For example, we want to see the elimination of reduced times. We want to see investment in children. Early education is also really important, before a child goes to school. We know the importance of pre-education before a child goes to primary and then on to secondary. There is a massive deficit in literacy and numeracy at present so that by the time a child gets to post-primary, they are falling way behind. It is not about attendance but support structures. As for outcomes, we want to see an increase in third level and finally we want to see opportunities in employment. Some 82% of Travellers are unemployed. We must get to the stage where there is a ramp-up in investment and supports, as well as a strategic approach and actions as Ms Reilly and Ms Joyce said, especially around interventions. That is the only way we will get out of this and ensure that our community has the best possible opportunity into the future.

In her opening statement, Ms Joyce said there needed to be systematic change introduced through the national Traveller education strategy. Is there anything she would add to what Mr. Joyce said that she would like to see as a priority?

Ms Maria Joyce

The focus has to shift. The onus can no longer be on Travellers when it comes to the lack of equality of outcomes in education. The system has to look at itself. It has to come from that perspective and not what has to change from a Traveller perspective. It has to focus on the education system and not on Travellers. It must also look at critical points of transfer, which has already been spoken about. It has to look at the points of transfer, including from early years to primary. It is more difficult from primary to second level, and certainly, from second to third level. So many times, we have put forward recommendations for what is needed. The solutions are known and the overriding issue is the absolute lack of implementation. There are a couple of members of this committee who were sitting on the Joint Committee on Education and Skills in 2019 when it looked at inequalities for Travellers in education and at reduced timetables. We are no further on in respect of any of those issues. None of the recommendations that committee made in two reports have been progressed any further. That is the really challenging bit. We are not seeing implementation and we are not seeing the focus shifting that the system has to change, not Travellers, to make the system work.

I thank Ms Joyce. I printed off the recommendations from that committee. I assume I am correct in stating that the last thing she wants is just another glossy publication, which sets out goals that are not implemented.

Ms Maria Joyce

There is something I forgot to say. Grants need to be made available to Travellers for education, that is, tangible, real resources that are not complicated. Any Travellers entering third level should have grants available without question to get them through that.

Ms Reilly's statement emphasised the impact that the restrictions and the closure of schools had on Traveller children. A lot of research has been done around the world on the impact that depriving children of education had on them. Can I ask Ms Reilly to once again emphasise the detrimental impact that she says the restrictions and the closure of education facilities had on Traveller children?

Ms Tracey Reilly

Many of the parents who were doing home schooling were very early school leavers. There were challenges with very low literacy skills, no IT skills and nothing to support them. They were just handed out these booklets of information on homework that needed to be done and was very challenging, and to be honest, could not be done. I saw that on the ground and it was very challenging in halting sites, mobile homes and the back of houses, not having electricity, not having study space or having anyone to turn to for additional support. Letters or text might have been sent out to parents who could not read them. We could go on all day about the challenges and barriers but these existed long before Covid. That is clear in the report we did in 2020, and the one in 2021 is to follow. Looking at the form, it is basically repeating the same things. There were a lot of challenges.

I thank the three guests. We did not get to hear everything Ms Reilly wanted to say but we will all read it and it is all taken into consideration. A lot of the comments and criticisms are very fair. I sit on the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community with Senator Flynn and I am very well aware of some of the things the witnesses are highlighting but there is nothing like hearing from people themselves of all the hoops they have to jump through to get to where Ms Reilly got to. In some ways it is great that she is able to hold herself up and for us to be able to hold her up as a model but it is also somewhat unfair on individuals to have to be that. Everyone has unique experiences and they all need to be met at whatever level and whatever way they want to experience the world and education.

I am interested in the witnesses' views on something the other committee has looked at, namely, accommodation and the failure of local authorities to draw down funds. I am from Galway where year on year, there has been a failure to draw down funding for Traveller accommodation, as well as general failures to prioritise children in halting sites that were supposed to be transient and have become permanent.

What part does all that play in educational achievement?

As Deputy O'Callaghan said, research shows that the pandemic has had an impact on all children in some ways but it has had an impact on the more marginalised more so than anyone else. Beyond that, there is another level, as I see it, namely, the racism experienced by Travellers that is not experienced by some other the vulnerable groups in society.

Consequently, there are three levels that have to be recognised. Targeted funding has to be part of this. We need to consider universality when we discuss preschool education and education in general. Targeted funding has to be part of that. Senator Dolan referred to funding to address the digital divide. What has to be front and centre is the fact that these cannot be one-off things; rather, there has been a failure over a long period that has to be made up for. I am happy to hear the views of the witnesses on my comments and questions.

Who wants to take those questions?

Mr. Bernard Joyce

I do not mind covering accommodation. Others might come in after that. As we see it, for many families and children accommodation was a humanitarian crisis prior to Covid-19. Covid-19 showed up that many children and families on this island are living without basic water, sanitation and electricity. The HSE issued guidelines on what was required in order to reduce the spread of Covid-19, for example, having warm water, which is a basic need, shower and sanitation facilities and electricity. Many families living in overcrowded substandard accommodation do not have these facilities. I can only imagine the situation for children.

The report of the Ombudsman for Children was damning and reflected the perspective of children. I want to quote from one child, who said that they felt like garbage. We are in 2021. Children having to go to school without showers, water or the basic humanitarian needs that we would expect every single child on this island to have is damning and is an indictment and a shame on the society that we live in. Absolutely no one, in any political party, Government or Department can stand over that. It is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Obviously, we welcome the expert report on implementation and the work done by the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, who is overseeing the recommendations. The only way out of this is for the recommendations to be fully implemented in a timely manner so as to eradicate the inhumane living conditions many Traveller children and families are living in across the country.

Ms Maria Joyce

I want to add a point on education and accommodation. Chronic overcrowded living conditions and substandard accommodation are a result of the persistent failure of local authorities over the past 20 or 30 years to deliver Traveller accommodation at local level. That has had a direct impact on the current chronic overcrowding and substandard accommodation Travellers have to live in. That, in turn, had a direct impact on those children who had the technology and Wi-Fi to enable them to try to study at home. We recognise that far fewer had that available to them than should have been the case.

Having a space to be able to study and focus on education was a significant barrier to being able to engage in online learning. We will have to learn to live with Covid and the different crises that will emerge. We will be talking about these issues again in another five or ten years if the combination of the delivery of accommodation and education, as well as the lessons learned from Covid, are not addressed.

Travellers were one of the groups most disproportionately impacted by Covid in terms of contracting it and living in accommodation types where the spread of it occurred more easily than in other areas. Children were trying to home school in overcrowded conditions alongside parents and siblings who had Covid. That is the lived reality. Learning from Covid and the disproportionate impact it has had on Travellers has to inform the lessons learned.

I refer to the Senator's comments on racism. It is the fundamental barrier when it comes to access to equality of participation in and outcomes from education with regard to Travellers. There is peer-led racism but there is also systematic racism, the racism experienced by Traveller children from teachers and bias. Solutions have been put forward.

The visibility of Travellers in the curricula is another critical factor. Travellers are not visible in the curricula. Teacher training is another critical issue, and Travellers need to be part of core teacher training and ongoing professional development. The reality is that the solutions are known. They need to be put in place. The Department of Education and other sectors responsible for third level and early years education need to put in place the systems to ensure they are delivered, rather than focusing on the responsibility of Travellers.

The education system should respond to Travellers at all stages of their learning. Marriage is not a barrier to third level education. As a matter of fact, the predominant cohort of Traveller women who entered third level education did so through the mature student route once the opportunities were available and resource and supports were put in place for them. That has to be recognised. The barriers are not within the community. Rather, they are within the education system.

I thank Ms Joyce.

I thank Mr. Joyce, Ms Joyce and Ms Reilly. I was not on this committee the last time around and I am learning a lot from their contributions. It is clear to me that, as Ms Joyce stated, the system needs to look at itself. That is the major message from today. We need to examine the reasons why the previous strategy was not implemented, and who is responsible for that and why. There is a new strategy despite there being an implementation deficit, which cannot be allowed to happen again.

I congratulate Ms Reilly on her first class honours degree and Mr. David Joyce on his first class honours master's degree. It is a fantastic achievement.

I will ask a couple of questions and the witnesses can answer them. Was one significant thing different for Ms Reilly in enabling her to reach her potential as she has done so far? I am not sure what her plans are for the future. Did one thing make a difference, be it a teacher or school? What was it?

My area of interest is higher education, in particular.

In response to a question I asked of the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, he informed me there were 48 new entrants of students to higher education who identified themselves as Travellers in the 2019-20 academic year. That is significantly below the target of 80 new entrants set in the national access plan in 2015. That document states the number of Travellers progressing to third level was so low they used numbers rather than percentage figures. The target was to go from 35 to 80 over the lifetime of that plan, which has now finished. Given the Department is in the process of forming a new national access plan, what should those targets be? Ms Joyce might respond to that question. Why have we fallen so short of reaching the last very modest target? Ms Joyce, in the opening statement she provided, stated "to ensure full access to education and lifelong learning, grants should be made available to all Traveller students". Will she elaborate on that and provide further detail on why she thinks the means-tested Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, grants are not working for Traveller students? I have more questions but Ms Joyce might answer those questions first.

Ms Maria Joyce

I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh for her questions. I apologise but there was some drop-out on my Wi-Fi as she was asking her questions. I will answer them as best as I can but I may have missed some of the context. On the question of the grants being made available, it was stated earlier that more than 80% of Travellers are unemployed. That is a crisis and there is a need for a strategy to address that. There are also multiple intersections of inequality and disadvantage. Travellers are not coming to the third level education system from a intergenerational perspective. We have had decades of inequality and disadvantage in education and when you combine that with high unemployment rates and poverty, specific targeted measures need to put in place to ensure the monetary factor will not be a barrier to Travellers engaging in and completing third level.

Could Ms Joyce give examples of specific grants that would be useful? It would be good to have tangible examples.

Ms Maria Joyce

Grants that cover fees and registrations. For Travellers who have survived primary and second level education and arrive at the door of a third level intuition, the worst thing facing them is being bogged down in red tape and all the procedures and hoops they have to jump through. There are grants available for students who are coming from educational disadvantage and marginalisation. Those procedures and hoops need to be removed from the system. We need straightforward grants that would cover fees. If we want more women to go into the third level education system, we need to be mindful of family commitments. Therefore, supports and resources that would allow that to be addressed are needed, particularly for Traveller women who are lone parents and are engaging in the education system as mature students. There are significant financial burdens on them and a system that has easily accessible resources or supports available is important. For Travellers who are in the third level system, and it will not be for all for of them, where there is a need for support and resources on the academic side, it is important those would also be available.

Ms Reilly might respond.

Ms Tracey Reilly

A very small number of our community are in the higher education sector. The Deputy asked me if there was a person who helped me to get to where I am today. I have got to where I am through doing courses such as the training of trainers in Pavee Point in which I got a merit. Then I got an opportunity to do the community work in a changing Ireland course, which is part of a programme called ROMED and was also a Maynooth certificate course. Twenty-four Travellers and Roma throughout Ireland participated on that course. It was that course that put the fire in my belly and empowered me to go forward. It gave me a taste for education that I had missed out on for so many years. I went to Maynooth and those who helped me to stay with the course and gave me an insight and in-depth knowledge of education were the people in the department of applied social studies or social science who were over my course. They were all very friendly and supportive and they helped me to get through it. They did not do the work for me in terms of assignments and reports. I was left to do that myself during Covid but I got through it fine. I am where I am today but were it not for those courses, which empowered me and put a fire in my belly, I do not think, if I am to be honest, I would be where I am today. I suppose I will hear people saying that I do not know where I will head to in the future or what my plans are. Being in college opened my eyes and gave me a new understanding. Getting experience from engagement with other minority, marginalised and disadvantaged groups made me realise that as a Traveller women sitting here today, there is no better place to be than in my own corner with my own community challenging the inequality we face and fighting for our basic human rights. That is what I will be planning for the future.

I thank Ms Reilly for that response. Senator Flynn cannot contribute today but she has submitted questions. I want to acknowledge the difference she has made on the committee in education. We are continuously learning from her. The witnesses have a great voice in her in holding people to account. That is important and it will be important as we move forward with a new strategy and the forthcoming legislation. My time is probably up. I wanted to ask another question on further education.

I will allow the Deputy a minute and half, as I have allowed other members some latitude.

Great. Mr. Joyce might answer this question. Are there specific recommendations on the further education provision and how it can do more? I know from dealing with further education there is flexibility to allow local colleges of further education to meet the needs of the communities and such flexibility may not be available in higher education. Does Mr. Joyce believe strengthening the pathways to further and higher education, as was outlined with respect to Ms Reilly, would be of benefit? A great deal of money is being invested in the development of apprenticeships and broadening the range of them available. Do they meet the needs of some of the Traveller community? Are there specific changes that need to be made there?

Mr. Bernard Joyce

There are opportunities to enhance the pathways to further education. I want to return to the thresholds applying to bursary applications. The thresholds applying to the 1916 bursary for Travellers and the SUSI grant could be increased given the intergenerational and historical context of that around unemployment and economic disadvantage. The Deputy may not be aware that for a part-time student to go back to third level education involves a financial burden and challenge. Ms Joyce highlighted that. Given only 1% of Travellers are in third level education, there should not be an issue in terms of investment and targeted interventions to get us to a stage where we increase the target to 20%, 25% or 30% over the next number of years. That would be a help. In terms of mature students participating in higher education under the new national access plan, Travellers should be named in that and supports should be targeted. The supports that have been put in place by the Traveller sector should be complemented.

We call for resources to support that current work within the Traveller sector to enable further progression into primary, post-primary and third level education.

Ms Maria Joyce

May I comment on apprenticeships? Across the board in the context of higher education and apprenticeships, it is important to set ambitious targets and put in place measures underneath them to ensure it is not just about mainstreaming. There is a need to ensure targeted provision to get to the mainstreaming levels we need to be at. Apprenticeships are another important route for young Travellers to access skills, trades and professions. It is important that they be viewed from the perspective of gender and that they include Travellers in their design. Participating bodies and businesses must be compliant with their public sector duty and there should be anti-racism training. The State carried out some work in recent years on apprenticeships with a view to making them less gendered. The question was how to get more women into traditional apprenticeships, which were male dominated. When the State views anything in the context of gender, it has to view it through an equality lens to ensure that women from ethnic minorities, the most marginalised groups of women, can access these programmes-----

I have to stop Ms Joyce there in order to be fair to everybody.

It is good to see Ms Joyce and Mr. Joyce again, both of whom I have had the pleasure of engaging with many times before, and it is nice to meet Ms Reilly for the first time, albeit virtually. I will take this opportunity to congratulate Ms Reilly and Mr. Joyce on their educational and academic achievements. I take my hat off to them and say "Well done". May it bring them many other great horizons.

I have found the engagement interesting. As our guests will be aware, I have been examining this issue for some time. Ms Joyce referred to the report we produced in the previous education committee and the recommendations that came from that. They were good recommendations, arising from much thought and interaction. It is disappointing. As was noted, we do not want to be sitting around the table in a further two years' time saying the recommendations that came out of this process still have not been implemented. I completely agree on that point. For me, the main message to emerge from this meeting is one on which I too beat the drum, namely, as Mr. Joyce stated, that the money should follow the child. Some DEIS schools' programmes are excellent but many children in non-DEIS schools suffer from many different types of inequality and disadvantage. On the other hand, some children who attend DEIS schools do not suffer from disadvantage. It really annoys me when we talk about DEIS schools as the recipient of so much. The entire model needs to be evaluated. Moreover, I do not like the labelling of schools as either DEIS or non-DEIS.

During Covid and the closure of schools, a time when many children slipped behind, access to broadband was shown to be a big issue. The digital divide, as well as the socioeconomic divide, was also a problem. Was enough done to ensure that Traveller children had access to broadband and digital devices?

Our guests will know from previous engagements where I stand on restricted timetables. It is an appalling method to have been introduced in schools and to have become almost commonplace. I fully agree about the guidelines being implemented and monitored, which was one of our key asks, and I appreciate the impact the timetables have had on Traveller students. At one of our previous engagements, a Traveller boy from Galway, who had done some work experience with Deputy Rabbitte before she was appointed a Minister of State, spoke to us about his experience in education. It seemed the biggest plus for him in education was the fact that a homework club had been set up for young Traveller students. That was the key for him and his peers. He provided terrific leadership among his community and encouraged his siblings and friends to attend the homework club. All he wanted to do was become a community garda because he saw the positive influence a community garda had had in his life. I recall thinking what a difference he would make to his peers if he became a community garda and could encourage others. Our guests might expand a little on some of those points.

On the inclusion of Traveller history and culture in school curricula, I understand positive recommendations were made earlier at Cabinet. I thank the former Senator Colette Kelleher for all the work she did, which Senators Flynn and Ruane have taken up. The post of visiting teacher for Travellers in schools was, unfortunately, withdrawn, something I had always felt was a very positive model in schools.

Finally, what three specific asks would help level the playing field?

Ms Maria Joyce

I might come in first with a couple of brief points. For clarity, there has never been a Traveller education strategy. What we did have, launched by the then Minister for Education and Science in 2006, was a report with recommendations for an education strategy but it was never followed through on. In that context, there is now an education strategy in the programme for Government and commitments in that regard. We know from working at a national level and engaging with local Traveller organisations that there is a significant need for a vision and education strategy, outlined with an implementation plan, to deliver what is needed.

I am not sure whether it was Senator O'Loughlin or Deputy Conway-Walsh who made a point about accountability. Many of the recommendations remain unimplemented because there is no accountability or consequence for the arms of the State that are responsible for delivering equality of access to, participation in and outcomes from education for Traveller children. That is why there has not been the progression that is needed.

As for whether enough was done during the Covid restrictions with regard to the digital divide, Wi-Fi and broadband, my straight-up answer is "No". Efforts were made, and perhaps at third level it was done a bit more comprehensively than at primary and post-primary level, but we know the reality from the work that local Traveller organisations did on the ground, engaging with families and children. One local Traveller organisation carried out a survey throughout its county that found that only one in every five Traveller families had adequate technology, which meant that four of every five children went without technology that would have allowed them to engage in remote and online learning. Enough was not done, therefore, and now we are dealing with the consequences of that. Already, there are deep undertones of inequality and disadvantage regarding the outcomes of education, with gaps in attendance at school of significant numbers of months, and that learning and those opportunities need to be recouped. We need structured supports, on an ongoing basis, to address that in a vision and policy context.

All that we are asking is to have an equal opportunity for Traveller children to engage fully in an education system that will deliver equality of outcomes in order that they have the opportunities to go directly to third level from second level. They should have a right to education from that perspective.

I agree with Senator O'Loughlin about the restricted timetables. There was an interim report of a committee which she chaired with regard to reduced timetables and the impact that they were having on Traveller children and on children with disabilities. We are not seeing the work that needs to be done. We have guidelines that have still not been implemented in the schools. There is a role for the inspectorate, when monitoring, to ensure that guidelines on reduced timetables are adhered to in order that we can eradicate a really bad practice that is impinging on the rights of and doing harm to Traveller children with regard to education outcomes.

Ms Tracey Reilly

To add to what Ms Joyce said, our message of the day is that money needs to follow the child, to support all Travellers who get to third level. All education is a connected process as well as an individual achievement. The role of the national Traveller organisations here today and the important support of local Traveller organisations require resourcing and support. Travellers have a right to education as themselves and as role models and many of us are determined to do the best that we can. Our education is our right, however, and the public sector duty needs to be used to help to create jobs.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

On the digital divide, you cannot just look at education and then not look at, for example, Traveller accommodation and where it is. There is a digital void in some areas because there is no access to Wi-Fi. Even in Dublin, some areas do not have coverage to access the Internet. There was a question about whether there was an opportunity to ensure that people have access to it. It is becoming easier to go into towns and cities and be able to access the Internet. It was not just about laptops and technologies but also about access to be able to study remotely.

Ms Joyce highlighted that it is important that the investment and supports are in place. In the last committee process in which I participated and which Senator O'Loughlin chaired, there were key recommendations. How do you progress those key recommendations across the political parties here? When people talk about accountability, they should ask how they ensure that their own parties are informed and put accountability in place as policy and in the actions in future. We welcome working with all the parties on how they might do that and on the key recommendations from today.

I thank Mr. Joyce. I have three questions from Senator Flynn. I do not normally do this but because Senator Flynn is an advocate for the Traveller community, I will ask three questions on her behalf because she is unable to be here this afternoon.

The Traveller community has experienced educational discrimination and segregation at every single level for decades. Not only is it important for us to actively support the Traveller Culture and History in Education Bill, it is also important to have a Traveller education strategy that is created and developed by Traveller groups and provides mandatory training for our educators. Senator Flynn would like the witnesses to speak about the impact of discrimination towards Travellers in progression through the education system.

The digital divide has been raised already. Senator Flynn noted it has been a significant concern of hers. Although the Government introduced funding to bridge the divide, which in fairness she acknowledged, Travellers were not named for the supports offered to vulnerable students. She would like the witnesses to speak about the importance of targeted supports for Traveller students to bridge the digital divide.

The third question relates to reduced timetables. She acknowledges that it is a widespread practice and that until recently, her own nephew was on a reduced timetable. The discrepancies in data collection for issues concerning the Traveller community mean that national data are not reflective of reality. She would like the witnesses to speak about the discriminatory practices in our education system that hinder the participation in and access to education for Traveller students. I ask Mr. Joyce to come in first and then I will ask the other witnesses to reply to the Senator's questions.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

I will not be too long. We have probably covered some of these questions. On discrimination, we await anti-bullying measures for when Travellers experience discrimination in education based on their identity. That issue is of great concern. Four out of ten children experience bullying in education based on their identity. It is a fundamental issue that needs to be addressed. Discrimination impacts on children's participation and engagement in education. It can also impact on relationships both inside and outside school and on retention. In some cases, young people will clock out because of isolation and exclusion and it becomes a daunting and challenging place. I know the committee is supportive of the Traveller Culture and History in Education Bill, which is important.

The other question was about targeted supports. When I referred to the strategy previously, which Ms Joyce mentioned, cuts were introduced for the visiting teacher service and other actions. The cuts were a challenge and concern. I mentioned targeted supports earlier for young Travellers in education, specifically children who may not be in DEIS schools. It should go from primary to post-primary and into third level education, so it should follow the person and not the school.

Will the Chair remind me of the last question?

Does Mr. Joyce want to let the other two witnesses come in first?

Ms Maria Joyce

On the issue of discrimination and racism, it is recognised across the board that a high percentage of Traveller children who are in the education system experience racist bullying and discriminatory practice. That is from their peers and from teachers. As I said earlier in this session, it is fundamentally underpinned by institutional and systematic racism. A fundamental change to the system is needed. There is racist name-calling and the issue of even having access to the school. For many Travellers of a certain generation in this country, segregated provision, its long legacy and its negative impact on Traveller parents is also a fundamental issue in respect of Traveller parents wanting to protect their children.

I appreciate we are talking about the experience of discrimination and racism but it is really frustrating that we have to lay bare these experiences to try to achieve the long-needed change in the system to deliver outcomes for Traveller children. We should not have to do that continuously. I fully appreciate where Senator Flynn is coming from, as someone who has been in the system and experienced the blatant racism that many Travellers, including the three Travellers speaking at this meeting, have experienced. Any of us who has children in the system will have experienced blatant racism. It is so frustrating that we must constantly lay bare those experiences to achieve basic rights in this context.

We spoke comprehensively about the digital divide. It is crucial that the gaps created as a result be addressed for both children still in school and the Traveller children who have dropped out of the system as a result of Covid and school closures. Furthermore, there must be learning from Covid to ensure these problems will not happen again in the context of online learning.

I will hand over to Ms Reilly because I am conscious of the time.

There is one further question for Mr. Joyce from the Senator, about whether the use of reduced timetables is a widespread practice. Until recently, her nephew was on a reduced timetable. She states that until recently, discrepancies in regard to data collection and the issues concerning the Traveller community mean that national data are not reflective of the reality. She would like the witnesses to speak to discriminatory practices within our education system that hinder Traveller students' participation in and access to education.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

The level and scale of use of reduced timetables is shocking. The Constitution gives every child a right to a full-time education and that applies to every child, including Traveller children. As far as I am aware, that is the only enshrined legislation that gives such a right. That is why the recommendations are so important. The previous committee issued clear recommendations that sought to eliminate the use of reduced timetables, which affect both Traveller children and other groups in society.

On the legacy point Ms Joyce raised in the historical context of segregation, as I mentioned, not long ago there was institutionalised racism and segregation in Irish society. The separation of Traveller children from the mainstream, settled population was a significant indictment of society. That institutionalised racism needs to be acknowledged, both in the context of the past and to ensure that Travellers' current circumstances change rapidly. In recognising that, there need to be positive actions on the part of the State, including through the Traveller Culture and History in Education Bill, to ensure our culture and history will inform the educational curriculum and allow the vast majority of students to learn about Traveller culture and history. It has a significant and important role not only for Travellers today but also for Irish society.

Ms Maria Joyce

One direct outcome from the levels of racism within the education system relates to the poor expectations, or lack thereof, of teachers for their Traveller pupils, which directly impacts on their opportunities to transfer through each respective level, whether primary to post-primary or post-primary to third level. If children go through a system that constantly reinforces everything negative and the perception that they will not get on and achieve, what is the point in investing in and teaching them because they will just drop out of school? Many of them drop out of school because of those low expectations and because of their negative experience of the education system. Part of it relates to the fact that they do not see outcomes from education, such as the link to employment or other higher education opportunities. All of this occurs in tandem, but that does not take away from the overarching responsibility of the fundamental change needed in the context of the education system.

Ms Tracey Reilly

I was cut off a moment ago, so Ms Joyce and Mr. Joyce may have covered some of my points. In short, racism is the key issue. The guidelines due on reduced timetables need to be promptly published. The timetables should not be used to discriminate against Travellers and they should be monitored meticulously. The Traveller Culture and History in Education Bill needs to be supported as a first and essential step to include all who are now part of Ireland.

I have a couple of questions. Do our guests know what percentage of Traveller children in mainstream schools have the assistance of special needs assistants, SNAs? Ms Joyce spoke about the education strategy for Travellers, something I would very much support, but there has to be a buy-in from the Traveller community as well. One issue I have most often come across in mainstream town and country schools where I come from in Wexford relates to the absenteeism of Traveller children. It is not as big an issue as it was but it is an issue nonetheless. Specifically in the transient community, where children move from place to place and may move on as soon as they have settled somewhere, it is still an issue. What are our guests' views on that? Does it occur to them as a current issue?

Ms Joyce spoke about how teachers may not have the same expectation of Traveller children. This is about encouragement but that includes encouragement in the home. As we all know, if children get encouragement from their parents in the home, they will make much better progress because they will have assistance and so on. Could Traveller children get greater assistance or encouragement from the home to support their educational needs and to reach their full potential? It is fantastic that Ms Reilly has achieved what she has in her own right. The new phenomenon of Travellers being able to access third level education is fantastic and it is only right and proper that they are able to access second and third level education and to reach their full educational potential. I think it was on "Nationwide" a number of months ago that I saw that someone from the Traveller community had trained to be a primary school teacher. All of this is brilliant and a great deal of work has been done in this regard. In my constituency, Wexford, I was involved in the organisation of homework clubs targeted primarily at Traveller children, who were brought in after school for an hour or so to do their homework and be encouraged to reach their full potential. Should there be more homework clubs?

Has the issue of racism in schools improved?

My own kids go to St. Aidan’s Parish School in Enniscorthy. I have to say I would never hear of any racism towards Traveller children in that school, in that they are very much made part and parcel of the school community and encouraged to be part of the school community. I know many Traveller families who attend St. Aidan’s in Enniscorthy and, to my knowledge, there are many other schools across the country which make sure that Traveller children are very much part and parcel of the school community. That is only right and proper. I feel the racism is perhaps not as bad as it was. Do the witnesses have other examples of it? If so, they might inform the committee of that.

Mr. Bernard Joyce

On racism, people seem to think racism is the name-calling or that it is very direct but there is a subtleness in terms of how people engage with children but also with parents. For example, when the Chairman suggests it might not be as visible, people need to check and ask where are the play dates or the interaction between a child going over to a person's home and meeting up. We know a lot of informal relationships happen not in school but outside the school, and those relationships are bonded outside the school although they transpire within education. What we are highlighting is the expectations of teachers with regard to these children. We are talking not about anecdotal evidence but about a real evidence base. Some children are going into school with this great energy and confidence from the home and they are really geared up. Then they come out and they move from this confidence to holding their head down in shame. That is what we are looking at. They come out of the school with their head down in shame because they have just been isolated or it is the very first time they have been discriminated against. The very first time you can get discriminated against can be in school. That is where you are told you are different but you are not sure exactly what that difference is. How do we explain to five-year-olds that they are different? People do it in a certain way. They are treated in such a way and they come home and they are so upset that they do not want to go back to the school or the classroom.

I know that, for most people in society, the one thing we have in the community is our family and we cherish them and care for them. We want them to succeed and do well but we do not want them to go into a jungle or a hostile environment where their confidence is tarnished and brought from a high to flat on the ground and where they are nearly crawling out of the school. That is not what we want. Nor do we want people off their own backs to need to have drive. People call it resilience but it nearly needs resilience to be a Traveller now in that they have to go through these challenges to retain their culture and their identity. They do not want that. It should be accepted, acknowledged and supported.

Many schools may not have things like Traveller culture and posters. My daughter has done the leaving certificate and it is great that she has done that, so we know that people come out at the other end and they are often the first to do that. When they talked about diversity in school, she had the confidence to go up and ask whether Travellers would be covered in that but there was a silence and a dismissiveness about it. They wanted to talk about diversity but not talk about Travellers within that diversity. How do we reconcile that? There is a selectiveness in terms of looking at diversity and excluding Travellers within it, as if somehow being a Traveller is an issue. I think that is part of the problem. When we talk about Travellers, it is as if it becomes an issue or something we have to address. We need to get beyond that. We all need to check ourselves. We need to check in order that if there are opportunities to excel in education, the supports, the structures and the environment are created to achieve that.

Anti-racism needs to be embedded within education in order that it is supported and there is ongoing professional training to deliver anti-racism. Those are my points with regard to racism.

Ms Maria Joyce

There are a couple of points I want to make with regard to racism. In some ways, it does not surprise me too much that the Chairman may not be aware of the racism in schools but Travellers and other ethnic minorities are. It is well recognised that there are issues of racism, discrimination and anti-Traveller bias impacting on Traveller children in education, right across primary and post-primary in particular. If people found themselves in a Traveller child's shoes even for one day in any school across this country, they would probably not go the full day without the negative experience that very many Traveller children have.

I am going to say this again without apology, and I know it has been said right across this session. Unless the education system looks at itself and addresses its failures with regard to Traveller children, nothing will change and these conversations will still be happening in a number of years. Change is required with the system, not with the Traveller child that is in it.

In regard to moving from one place to another, what impacts that is the need to stop evictions and improve housing and accommodation provision for Travellers, and to recognise the diversity of the school population. A core element for Travellers is nomadic movement. Much less of that is happening due to legislation like the trespass legislation, which has impacted in an incredibly negative way on Traveller nomadism. If we have an education system that recognises the diversity of all students, measures like that will be put in place. Much of the time, movement has occurred because of evictions and because of substandard accommodation or lack of accommodation. If we address that, we will address some of those other issues.

Is it any wonder there are still issues of absenteeism when Traveller children have very negative experiences and are unhappy in the education system? That is because the education system is continuing to fail them, not them failing the system. We need to address those core issues.

The Chairman's first point on data is a critical one and Ms Reilly has answered it well in regard to the need for ethnic data on education and segregation in education to measure and monitor the outcomes from education, and to put in place the supports that are needed.

Ms Tracey Reilly

I want to address the point on expectations within the school system. To be honest, unfortunately, on a personal level, there was no expectation for me from the teachers when I was in school. If there was, I would not have dropped out and would have stayed in. I was told that I was not going to get anywhere and that was basically why I dropped out of school straight away.

There is also the point about encouragement from Traveller parents. I am going to be brutally honest. My mother and father came from very similar experiences as me. They were literally dragged out. Within a classroom of however many pupils, they were brought down to be washed and brought back up and left in school. They thought the very same thing was happening to me when I came back and told them what the teacher said. Parents should know that their children are going to be respected for who they are, and I am not just talking about Travellers but about all minority groups. There is still racism and discrimination out there today. My nephew is only eight years old and had just started back in school and pupils aged eight were telling him them he was living in a halting site.

He was being told he lived on a smelly halting site and that was why he was not at the online classes, as his family could not afford Wi-Fi. That was not the fact. My sister lives on an authorised halting site, had no access to Wi-Fi and did not have the equipment for Wi-Fi. If she did, she has low literacy skills, with no IT skills or anything like that to support or help him. It is great that some schools do not experience any levels of racism but it is still present in 2021.

I acknowledge the good work of my former colleague, Colette Kelleher, in the previous Seanad, in bringing forward the Traveller Culture and History in Education Bill, as well as Oein de Bhairdúin, who worked with her. It is important. She did significant work in my time in the Seanad.

I thank the Deputy. I thank Mr. Bernard Joyce, director of the Irish Traveller Movement, Ms Tracey Reilly from Pavee Point, and Ms Maria Joyce, co-ordinator of the National Traveller Women’s Forum. As Chair, I try to be as fair as possible in getting everybody in. Unfortunately, with Covid, all of our meetings are restricted to two hours. The two-hour ruling is strict. I thank all the witnesses for coming to share their insight and knowledge about this issue. It has been beneficial for the committee's ongoing work in this area. It has gone on for a number of weeks. The witnesses' dedication and commitment to Traveller education came across genuinely. There are many other questions I would like to have asked about school meals and such. Unfortunately, our two hours is up. I thank the witnesses.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.32 p.m. until on 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 July 2021.
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