Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022

Review of Out-of-School Provision Report and Education and Supports Provision for Ukrainian Students: Discussion

Chairman

No apologies have been received. Can members please ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment of the Houses even on silent mode? The draft minutes of the meeting on 21 May have been circulated. Are the minutes of that meeting agreed to? Agreed.

We will meet with the Minister for Education, Deputy Norma Foley, in session one and with the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris, in session two. On behalf of the committee, I would like to welcome the Minster, Deputy Norma Foley, and the Minister of State at the Department of Education with special responsibility for special education and inclusion, Deputy Josepha Madigan, and their officials here today.

The report on the review of out-of-school provision was published by the social inclusion unit at the Department of Education on 12 May. Why was the joint committee not informed of the publication of the report? What are the Minster's intentions regarding sustainable funding at the Cork Life Centre as there is no funding model contained in the report? What is the rational behind the decision to only focus on 13 to 15-year-old students in the review? What plans are in place for students who are 16 years old and older who are at senior cycle in an alternative education setting as the review makes no provision for this cohort?

The second issue in this session is education and supports provision for displaced Ukrainian students. I propose that we take the first issue, the review of out-of-school provision report, at the start of the meeting, separately from the Ukrainian issue. If members put their hands up, I will call them. Members have a number of specific questions.

I ask the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, to make their brief openings statements.

Minister for Education and Skills. (Deputy Norma Foley)

I thank the Chair and the members of the committee for the invitation to attend today to discuss the important issues of the review of out-of-school education provision, and education and supports for Ukrainian students. We are joined today by a number of officials from our Department, including Tomás Ó Ruairc and Ms Martina Mannion, assistant secretaries general, and by Ms Anne Murray, Ms Mary Cregg and Mr. Neville Kenny, principal officers.

I will speak first about the review of out-of-school provision report. Out-of-school services are typically a provision of education, outside of the mainstream school setting, for children and young people who have encountered difficulties staying in mainstream education. This sector has expanded over time and most often as a response to a local need. For these students, out-of-school education provision is generally the final option within the education system, when all other supports, options and pathways have been tried and have not proved successful in maintaining their engagement with mainstream education.

The Department committed, as part of the Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS, plan, to review the current provision of out-of-school education to inform future supports in this area. The aim was to research current provision, to identify how best the sector should be served, and to make recommendations for future policy development. This review encompasses the out-of-school education sector in general, nationwide, and is not specific to any one particular setting.

The report, which was just published on 12 May, acknowledges the need for out-of-school provision for a small number of students, for whom the mainstream school system faces challenges in meeting their diverse and individualised needs. It also acknowledges that education provision for students, both in school and out of school, is best delivered by ensuring the voice of the child or young person is at its heart.

The next steps will involve the establishment of a working group to consider and work through the recommendations. It is important to state that this is very much a first step in providing a policy platform for the out-of-school sector. The working group will be tasked with considering the recommendations of the review of out-of-school education provision, and, critically, engaging with relevant stakeholders as part of this process. The recommendations allow for consideration of possible approaches and funding models to be developed. The working group is tasked with developing criteria for structure, governance and level of education provision, including scoping out costs associated with the implementation of the recommendations. I am keen to progress this work and can assure the committee that these students will be supported.

I will turn now to the second issue the committee referred to in its invitation, namely, education and supports for Ukrainian students. First, I want to highlight the fantastic work that our schools have done in welcoming so many children and young people from Ukraine into their communities over the last three months. As I visited schools around the country, I witnessed first hand this exceptional effort by all members of our school communities from principals, teachers, special needs assistants, SNAs, staff, students, families to their wider communities.

I want to assure the committee that meeting the educational needs of children and young people from Ukraine is a priority for me, as Minister, and for my officials. We are determined to continue our support for those huge efforts we are seeing from our school communities on the ground. Members will appreciate the scale of the response needed, given that well over 30,000 people have arrived in Ireland from Ukraine since the beginning of this war. Figures show that just under 6,000 children from Ukraine have now enrolled in schools in every county across the State. To date, approximately 4,000 children from Ukraine have enrolled in primary schools, while almost 1,900 have enrolled in our post-primary schools.

From the early days of the crisis, the Department has moved quickly to respond appropriately. This is why, in the early phase, we moved to establish regional education and language teams, REALT, across the country to co-ordinate school enrolment for Ukrainian families.

The primary role of REALT is to build on existing regional education support structures and the initial focus is on assisting families in securing school places when they are ready to engage with the school system. REALT will also support schools in the area to meet the needs of these children as they emerge, to advise and support the Department in developing new capacity where required, and to co-ordinate the provision of education services to schools and families across their defined areas.

The Department is aware, through the work of the REALT co-ordinators and inspectors on the ground, that some Ukrainian pupils are accessing Ukrainian curricular material - for example, through the all-Ukraine online school, which is supported by the ministry of education and science of Ukraine. I would like to thank those schools which have facilitated a pragmatic approach for these pupils.

The issue of appropriate language supports is an important one. All children in the education system are provided with the supports they require to fulfil their potential. The allocation of specialist resources to schools takes account of the needs of pupils, including where appropriate, English as an additional language, EAL, needs. Figures show that 724 primary and 194 post-primary schools have applied for, and are now receiving, EAL teaching resources.

The Department and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science have collaborated, in conjunction with SOLAS and ETBI and in wider consultation with other management bodies and stakeholders to agree the recruitment of additional capacity for ESOL tutors, that is, English for speakers of other languages, in every ETB. This capacity will be flexibly deployed into post-primary schools, adult education centres, or wherever intensive English language development classes need to be facilitated for Ukrainian adults and post-primary age students. This resource will be available to Ukrainian children and young people over the summer period.

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend today and to provide an update on the review of out-of-school provision report and on the actions being taken to support the educational needs of students arriving in Ireland from Ukraine.

I now invite the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, to address the committee.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Josepha Madigan)

I am pleased to be here today to provide an update to the committee on education and supports for Ukrainian students, particularly with regard to special educational needs. My Department is committed to providing every support possible to all those fleeing war in Ukraine and seeking protection in Ireland including those with special needs. The Minister, Deputy Foley, has outlined the important work of the regional education and language teams, REALT. The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, is a critical member of each of these regional teams in supporting families to access the educational supports they need. NCSE staff are spending time with these families as they adjust to new school placements across the country. While the most appropriate place for children is in the most inclusive environment in a mainstream setting, where there are known complex needs, the NCSE will work with families to get the right setting for these children. The NCSE special education needs organisers, SENOs, are linking with other relevant State agencies, including the education welfare services and the HSE. In addition, officials in my Department are working closely with the HSE disability services so that there is a joined up response and flow of information.

One of the key supports we can offer to children arriving from other countries is English language supports. These supports are available generally in schools which have a large number of children for whom English or Irish is not their first language. It has been of particular importance recently to support the large number of children from Ukraine enrolled in our schools. I am pleased to say an allocation of English language support hours is provided to schools which have recently enrolled Ukrainian pupils.

The Minister, Deputy Foley, and I were delighted to announce this year’s summer programme. It is anticipated that it will support up to 48,000 children with special educational needs and children at most risk of educational disadvantage, which is a huge priority for this Government. For the 2022 programme, the inclusion programme at primary and post-primary levels offers an opportunity for schools to address the needs of migrant students, such as addressing English language skills and integration. This includes students who have recently arrived in Ireland from Ukraine. This is a key part of the offering and I can confirm that it includes English as an additional language support.

Finally, it is also important to mention that I recently visited the Muslim school in Clonskeagh at the invitation of the school principal, John McDonnell, and the CEO of the Islamic Cultural Centre for Ireland, Ahmed Hasain. In a gesture that truly illustrates the meaning of community spirit, the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland is willing to offer up to four classrooms to the Muslim national school to facilitate newly arriving children and young people from Ukraine, irrespective of their religion.

I take this opportunity to acknowledge the great work done by our schools and communities to welcome children and young people from Ukraine, as well as their families. Once again, Chair, I thank the committee for the invitation to attend today to provide an update on the important work that is being done to support learners from Ukraine with special educational needs.

Chairman

Thank you very much. The first part will be on the special report. I will take Deputies Ó Ríordáin, Ó Laoghaire and O'Sullivan.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I thank the Minister and the Minister of State. We have all been very impressed with the Cork Life Centre, in particular. It has been in front of the committee and we have met the representatives on a number of occasions. I do not think there was one member of the committee who was not incredibly impressed by the service it provides. I met Mr. Don O' Leary yesterday and he was anxious that there would be some light at the end of tunnel in terms of what the centre is trying to do. The Minister, Deputy Foley' presentation speaks again of a review. Unfortunately, for people in the Cork Life Centre, that is not going to give them an awful lot of comfort.

I am intrigued by the phrase "out-of-school provision" and not "alternative education". When dealing with the Department of Education, you always have to be very cognisant of the fact that it knows language very well. The Department knows language very well, so the choice of the phrase "out-of-school provision" is a deliberate one. It gives a connotation of something that is odd or unusual. It has negative connotations in terms of what the provision does, that is, it is out-of-school rather than being part of the educational provision by the State.

Will the Minister speak specifically on the Cork Life Centre? What support will be provided to ensure those young people can continue? Can I ask specifically about this phrase "out-of-school provision" which the Department has chosen to use? Does the Minister agree that it does not really fit well with those who are working in alternative education? For those who attend services such as the Cork Life Centre, it is school and it is their educational experience. They are being provided with an alternative to what many people might consider the mainstream, but it is not "out-of-school". I have an issue with that phraseology.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. In the first instance, I take the Deputy's point in terms of language. This report was a report about out-of-school provision which was put in place in late 2017. That is the report we are here to discuss. However, I take the Deputy's point. It is important to note that in the report there is an acknowledgement of the need for the provision of education types, whatever name or title we want to give them, for a particular group of students whose needs are not met in the mainstream education setting. It is very important that acknowledgement exists within this report. That is the first stepping stone forward.

At the end of the day what we want to ensure is that the maximum number of our students feel their needs are being met in education, and I know Deputy Ó Ríordáin would share this view. Where that is not possible in one particular type of education, then we will support their opportunities in the type of education that meets their needs. The provision of a different type of education from mainstream education is acknowledged here. High level recommendations are made here. The recommendations include the need to secure that type of provision for the students and the need to find a starting point, so that we can be clear in terms of how provision of that nature will work, be funded and how there will be consistency across different centres or providers.

On the Cork Life Centre specifically - and I acknowledge the work of the Cork Life Centre and of all the other centres - this report is not specific to any one centre. It looks in the round at all of the types of provision that are made. The Department has provided funding and has worked closely with the Cork Life Centre.

There is a pathway forward or starting point now, where we will look at future potential in terms of funding mechanisms, co-ordination, delivery and types of education and so on. This report is significant because it is a stepping stone in terms of the necessary work which will be undertaken by the working group.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I notice the Minister did not use the phrase "alternative education". I do not know if that was deliberate or not. Regarding the Cork Life Centre and the fears and concerns they have, is the Minister in a position to give them comfort as to their future?

Deputy Norma Foley

We have not been found wanting in terms of the Cork Life Centre. We have worked closely with it and will continue to do that. It is important to say the entire purpose of this review was to look across all settings and secure a mechanism via the working group to ensure there is funding available, coherence of delivery of education and of governance and a variety of necessary measures to ensure everything operates as it should.

I do not have any particular preference one way or another for the name. My absolute preference is to ensure children and young people are being provided for and their needs are being met. The name is not of concern to me. There is a provision of education in non-recognised settings in the Education (Welfare) Act. Perhaps that is where it comes from but the name is not the concern. The concern is to ensure children and young people are being catered for. I say that sincerely and know that is the Deputy's interest as well.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I thank the Ministers and officials for attending. My first question is more of a procedural one. There are a number of capable people listed as being on the review group but it is not entirely clear which of them wrote the report. Will the Minister clarify who was responsible for drafting the report and if it was agreed at a meeting of the review group? Did anyone make amendments?

Deputy Norma Foley

This was commissioned in late 2017. A group was put together and the report was finalised and delivered to me. On the overall responsibility or charge for the writing of the report, the report was born of consultation with a wide variety of parties and agreed by the entire group. There is no one individual. It is an agreed report by the group as a consequence of the public and on-line consultation and submissions that came from the wider public. I believe around 46 personal submissions were received.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Can the Minister not identify the person who came up with the first draft?

Deputy Norma Foley

There is no one person. It is an agreed report.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Okay. There are two major points I want to raise. I raise again the situation in the Cork Life Centre. I know this was an overall review but this saga has been going on for some time. There has been back and forth but it seems to be difficult to finally get to an arrangement that allows Cork Life Centre to continue in a sustainable way and to retain the staff who are committed to the centre. I urge the Minister to do whatever is necessary to get that over the line and get the deal that will ensure the centre continues. This saga has been going on for three years, at least, in its latest iteration, and longer than that in different guises.

Another thing surprised me. I was not an education spokesperson when this report was commissioned. I did not realise until it was published that this did not include the national Youthreach programme, which to me is peculiar. It is the largest, by a distance, provider of "out-of-school education", which is the phrase in the report, or of alternative education. I know it is saying that the Minister, Deputy Harris's, Department will be represented on the implementation group but it is not clear how there is a single unified vision here for alternative education. This report, which has some good and some bad aspects, does not take the Youthreach picture into account. That is surprising. The report is done but it is about how we ensure it is all tied together and there is a unified vision because Youthreach does invaluable work. It could be described as further education but I am not sure it naturally belongs in that Department. There is an argument it might better belong in this Department. Be that as it may, will the Minister comment on why Youthreach was not included? How do we ensure there is a coherence to it all in the end?

Deputy Norma Foley

It is my understanding, although it predates both of us in that respect, that the review of Youthreach was ongoing at the time the ESRI report was published. This report states that Youthreach will be taken into account. I acknowledge the report focuses very much on 13 to 15-year-olds.

The Deputy and many here have personal knowledge and have engaged with Cork Life Centre. I acknowledge the work and role of the centre and that there has been long-standing engagement between it and the Department. The priority now is to look at all provision of all centres and ensure there is sustainability from a funding point of view. That is one of the tasks, the Deputy will see from the report, that the working group will focus on, as well as that there is consistency in the curriculum that is provided for. The working group will be charged with all of that function to ensure the issues that have heretofore challenged in this area are smoothed over or worked through in consultation and in collaboration.

The bottom line is, as the report acknowledges, that there is a place for this type of education. We have consistently said and I acknowledge that everybody here has recognised that no one size necessarily suits every student. That is clear here, so a different approach is being taken. We need to find a consistency and a suitable funding model around that. The working group will be tasked with doing that work.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

The response to queries raised regarding the life centre for at least a year has been that this review was forthcoming. I do not know that that was entirely fair to the centre or to people like us who asked questions in good faith about it. The Department knew the report only dealt with children up to 15, while the Cork Life Centre deals with children up to 18. This review, no matter how well authored, was never going to have all the answers to their situation. The fact it was used as the basis for telling them to hold tough a while does not seem totally fair, in hindsight.

Deputy Norma Foley

While the review focuses primarily on children as defined by the Education (Welfare) Act, the overall aim of the report and the overall aim full stop is to ensure the greatest retention to leaving certificate. There is sufficient scope provided for within this working group to address all aspects, whether students in the 13 to 15 age bracket or those who are moving on towards leaving certificate level. It is important that scope be given to the working group and it is my ambition and intention that such scope will be provided for.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I thank both Ministers for coming in. Following on from the two previous Deputies and, I note, from the Minister, I think language is extremely important and is what shapes the report. It is the first protocol. I agree it needs to be changed because we are making the students who avail of these supports lesser and suggesting they are not getting the same education as young people in a school setting, though in many cases they are getting the same education.

I would welcome the report if it guaranteed a safety net. When we first met the young people of Cork Life Centre, they described the arrangement as a safety net, a safe space. Education is not for all young people and, as the Minister said, one shoe does not fit all. Our education system has to be able to work with young people where they are at. As said, Cork Life Centre works with young people up to the age of 18. This should be included in the review.

To move on a little from the report, I wish to refer to supports for Ukrainian refugees. Who is responsible for early schooling, including preschool and early childhood services? As everyone who is a parent at this table knows, there is a minimal number of spaces available for children at present. How is what is provided being funded? Is there fair access? Are there spaces for toddlers or children from three years of age?

A representative of AsIAm attended a meeting of the disability committee a few weeks ago when we were talking about meeting Ukrainian people where they are at in respect of providing special needs education-----

Chairman

Could the Senator leave the Ukrainian issue until the next part of the meeting?

Senator Eileen Flynn

Yes.

Deputy Norma Foley

The Senator, like Deputy Ó Ríordáin, raised the matter of the title. I want to be absolutely fair to and honest with both members in that I do not have any issue with the points they make on the title. The current title is the one that was given to the report when it was first commissioned in late 2017 and that is why I assume it remains in place; however, I have no issue with working with whatever is appropriate or whatever the students themselves deem to be the appropriate title. The core objective is to ensure educational provision that meets the needs of students and young people who, for whatever reason, cannot have those needs met at present in mainstream education. The objective is to ensure cohesion and financial sustainability regarding provision. As the Senator and students have said — nobody puts it better than the students themselves — they want a safe space. The working group now has an opportunity to work through the various points to ensure cohesion regarding governance and the curriculum, in addition to financial sustainability. That is the chief objective. The report is the catalyst for the next stage of engagement and delivery.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I welcome the Minister and Minister of State. Like previous speakers, I believe we have debated this issue for a good while. The report was instigated in 2017 and I suppose it must be welcomed that it is now being published. At least we know where we are at. Many of us were waiting eagerly for the report. When I got a chance to read it a couple of weeks ago, my initial reaction was that it was a stepping stone, as the Minister said. Considering that it was commissioned in 2017 and it is now 2022, when will we get to the destination? For five long years, the organisations have waited, unsure of their funding from year to year. I concede that we have provided funding for Cork Life Centre more than ever before in the past few years. That must be acknowledged, as must the additional hours given, but at the same time the report refers to a sustainable model. All the models and centres are different. As Senator Flynn said, there is no one size that fits all, and that must be acknowledged. The majority of people running the centres just want to know the resources they have and the contractual status of their teaching staff. We are all speaking about Cork Life Centre. A sizeable proportion of the staff there are qualified teachers and some of them have a masters degree. They are not being paid at the same rate as their equivalents in mainstream education. I would like some feedback on when we will reach the final stepping stone or destination where there are definitive answers for each of the centres.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. I acknowledge his personal interest in and engagement on this. I appreciate his point on progress between 2017 and now. I cannot say what the initial delay was. No doubt Covid had an impact but the important thing concerns where we are now and what we are going to do next. I see this report as a catalyst to allow the working group to go through each of the points the Deputy has made, which points I have made previously.

I believe the centres themselves would acknowledge that, in many instances, it has been a struggle for them. There have been challenges and difficulties for them. I appreciate the Deputy’s acknowledgement of the supports given when the matter is raised with us. The centres themselves need a definitive standing regarding supports that can be offered, and that is why we will move as quickly as possible, through the working group, specifically to examine the recommendations so as to find a funding mechanism that will remove the challenges that have arisen heretofore for the centres. It is a matter of achieving coherence of delivery and governance across the centres. The purpose is to work with the centres collectively to find a model that best meets and suits the needs of the students. In the next step, with the working group, there will be wide consultation. I assure the members that there will be consultation with the students involved in the process, in particular. I cannot speak for what happened up to this point; I can speak only to what my ambition is. It is to make progress as quickly as possible via the working group to answer the very significant questions that the centres themselves want answered and that need to be provided to ensure sustainability.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

When is the working group due to conclude its deliberations? Will it be in six months or 12?

Deputy Norma Foley

The terms of reference have not been completed yet but I will inform the Deputy as soon as they are.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I have one other point, a substantive one. It seems from reading the report that there is an emphasis on students aged up to 15. A sizeable proportion of the students of the life centre with whom I am most familiar are above that age. I realise the report is to emphasise the return to mainstream education. That is the ideal scenario, but the Minister, having taught in a classroom for long enough, like me, will know that is not always the end result and that a certain percentage of students will never return to mainstream education. What is the plan for students over 16 if that eventuality transpires?

Deputy Norma Foley

In the first instance, the focus is on those aged between 13 and 15 because Youthreach was in existence. People have said Youthreach itself is a very significant programme that meets a great need for many students. However, I hear the point being made on centres offering a facility to students beyond the 13-15 age bracket. There is scope for the working group to consider this and determine how it can be managed. I will not in any way be limiting the scope of the working group. There is an opportunity for it to consider the leaving certificate cohort. Ultimately, the chief objective is to ensure as much retention and completion at leaving certificate level as possible.

If that is the sole objective, we will look at the widest possible opportunities to ensure that.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

This committee has had correspondence with the Department regarding continuing engagement with the life centre. Have officials met them or is it the intention to meet them to continue those discussions?

Deputy Norma Foley

Is this the Cork Life Centre?

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Yes.

Deputy Norma Foley

There have been a number of engagements between departmental officials and Cork Life Centre.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Are officials due to meet them anytime in the future to discuss this report?

Deputy Norma Foley

I cannot say that unequivocally to the Deputy now. I will revert to him in due course. There has been engagement.

Chairman

Members of the committee were invited to the Cork Life Centre and 90% of us visited. As Chair of the committee, I was delighted to lead the delegation. We were very impressed by the ongoing work by the principal and staff there. The Minister mentioned her ambition. I presume her ambition would be to be very supportive of the Cork Life Centre and similar centres throughout the country. I am not sure if the Cork Life Centre is the only one that caters for these students.

Deputy Norma Foley

I again acknowledge that this report is not specific to any one centre.

Chairman

I know that, but I am asking specifically about the Cork Life Centre.

Deputy Norma Foley

My objective is to ensure we give the maximum opportunity to our students to reach leaving certificate level, to achieve to the best of their ability and to be happy as they do so. I recognise and welcome that the report acknowledges the need for different types of education provision. That is very positive step forward. I would be supportive of any mechanism to meet the needs of children and young people to attain to the best of their capability. That includes the centres the Chairman referenced. It includes any mechanism we need to allow them the facility to achieve as they should achieve, particularly for those who have found that the existing system does not suit their needs.

Chairman

Can the Minister give a commitment that the centre will be given the financial lifeline needed to keep its doors open? If it does not get the financial lifeline needed, I could envisage this place closing. While is not in my constituency, I took a real interest in it having spoken to their staff and the pupils. It has achieved amazing results. Can the Minister give a commitment that she wants to see it remain open and that she will give it the financial lifeline to allow it to remain open?

Deputy Norma Foley

We need to be very clear here. Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan already acknowledged that considerable supports have been provided by the Department of Education. Throughout the Covid pandemic teaching hours and financial supports have been made available. The priority here is to ensure cohesion of delivery and a mechanism of funding. There needs to be cohesion of governance across these centres. The objective of the working group is to find a pathway forward. It is very clearly set out in the report and we will do everything we can to deliver that as quickly as we can for the benefit of the centres and especially for the students who are availing of a different provision of education.

Chairman

I was asked to put this question to the Minister by staff and pupils in the Cork Life Centre. If her diary allows, will she visit the Cork Life Centre to see the work going on there?

Deputy Norma Foley

I have already received an invitation from the centre. I will do all that I can to see if I can fulfil that. I was very pleased to meet some of the students here. They also extended an invitation. I will do all that I can.