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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Jun 2022

Provision of Education Supports for Ukrainian Students

We now move on to the provision of education supports for Ukrainian students. I call Senator Flynn to be followed by Deputies Ó Ríordáin, Jim O'Callaghan and Ó Cathasaigh.

Many of us around this table, as parents, know of the genuine demand for early childhood education. How will we meet the needs of Ukrainian children?

The Minister of State with responsibility for special education will know that representatives of AsIAm appeared before the Joint Committee on Disability Matters a few weeks ago. They spoke about meeting the needs of young people from Ukraine. Is money being put into special education services? How is it working? What money is being allocated to it? What are the supports for those with additional needs, especially when neither English nor Irish is their first language? How will SNAs support the students given the language barrier?

I will answer the Senator's latter question first. Our understanding is that many children from Ukraine with very complex needs are being supported in countries very close to Ukraine probably because of the travel and that a country like Ireland is so far away. Officials in the Department of Education are in close contact with the HSE. It has confirmed that the number of adults and children with disabilities arriving here is quite small. My understanding is that only about seven or eight children from Ukraine are in special classes or special schools. That is not to say there will not be more.

The approach at the moment is that children should be facilitated in local settings and that they should not be assessed in the very first instance. We want to get them settled first of all. That is based on a psychological first-aid model. It is better to do that given that they can be so traumatised coming from a war-torn country. Obviously, the NCSE has the information and they would be put into a specialised setting if that is needed. The special educational needs organiser, SENO, meets parents with the aid of an interpreter. The NCSE has also translated about 56 different documents into Russian and Ukrainian to help with the language barrier. The NCSE so is engaging on an ongoing basis where children with autism or any type of additional need are identified.

They are part of the regional education and language teams, REALT, that the Minister, Deputy Foley, mentioned. They know where the children are and they support them through that. They are obviously in touch with the education welfare service and the Tusla education support service, TESS. The National Educational Psychological Service helps with psychological supports.

The other part of the response relates to summer provision. We hope the Ukrainians will avail the dedicated inclusion programmes this summer. Evidence would suggest that particularly for younger children an activity-based environment is better than learning the language. It is the best way for them to integrate in that way. Considerable good work is being done for Ukrainians. They are fully supported and if they need more special education teaching, SET, support - obviously the language comes under that as well - they can be given that. They can also be given more special needs assistance, SNA, support.

Provision for the younger children will come under the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. The Senator mentioned language. More than 918 schools requested additional support relating to English as an additional language or additional teaching hours and that has been granted.

We are also considering the live issue of tutors to teach English to speakers of other languages, ESOL, for those who do not have English as a first language. That tutor programme is being made available to post-primary students and to families because there is recognition that a whole community approach must be taken. Throughout the summer, tutor supports will be available to adults within families and to post-primary students.

I know the Department, the Minister and the Minister of State will join me and other members of the committee in thanking and congratulating school communities around the country. Those communities came out of the traumatic period of the pandemic and all the challenges that had to be overcome in that regard and are now embracing the new challenge of thousands of children without English as a first language falling into their care. Those children are suffering from all sorts of trauma as a result of what they have witnessed and where they have come from as they settle into a new environment. They have concerns about their family members at home. The teaching profession and those who work in schools, including SNAs, secretaries, caretakers and boards of management, have stepped up to welcome those thousands of students to their schools. We totally accept it was never going to be perfect. There were always going to be teething problems. However, there are a number of issues. It has come to my notice, for example, that in certain circumstances a child may be in a school for a number of weeks and with very short notice, the student and his or her family may be relocated to another part of the country. A number of families were going to schools in my constituency and with short notice were moved to Youghal. I understand these things have to happen and that in an emergency scenario not everything is going to be done perfectly. Will the Minister speak to how such situations are communicated and managed? How is a school informed of those sorts of situations?

A particular young person in the neighbouring constituency of Fingal has special educational needs and is utilising the available resources in a school setting. The change of location for that young person is going to be even more challenging as they move from one setting to another. What communications are the different agencies having about the individual needs of children when they are being moved from one part of the country to another? What kind of communication takes place with the school and the education partners? Does special educational need come into that discussion? We previously thought that the child and the family may be moved elsewhere. Should we reconsider that?

I hope my next point does not come across as unfair but I feel strongly about this issue, as the Minister will be aware. A Ukrainian child who is now trying to access a secondary school place will be disadvantaged by the fact that certain schools retain 25% of their intake for the children and grandchildren of past pupils. A Ukrainian is very unlikely to have a parent or grandparent who attended a secondary school in a locality in Ireland. Does that not again expose how unfair that provision is?

As I said in my opening remarks, I concur that excellent work has been done, and continues to be done, by our schools. The Deputy clearly articulated the situation when he said they have come out of the challenges of the pandemic and moved into a new challenge. It has been my good fortune to have had the opportunity to visit many schools and see all of the work going on seamlessly and generously on the ground. I acknowledge that, as I did at the outset of the meeting.

I appreciate the point the Deputy has made about children settling in a school and families settling in an area only to be moved on. Even with the best will in the world, there are significant challenges relating to the availability of accommodation from the point of view of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. This is an emergency. It is a remarkable achievement that 30,000 people who have arrived into the country in recent weeks are being accommodated with respect not only to accommodation but also in wider society, including our schools. There is unprecedented demand but all of society is stepping up in response. It means some accommodation is available on a more short-term basis than others. We are liaising clearly with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. We know where we have more or less capacity. The priority of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is to provide accommodation first. That is its primary consideration. Up to this point, the Department of Education has been able to provide for education in areas in which the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has found accommodation. It is a challenge and there is no doubt about that but we liaise closely with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

The Deputy asked specifically about children with special educational needs and the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, has articulated a response on that point. I will invite her to come in on that point but she has referenced the numbers involved and the fact that we are managing our way through that situation. The important point is that we must find a place to accommodate all children who require it within the school setting.

The Deputy also spoke about admission policies in schools. As I said to him earlier, we know we have capacity within our schools to meet the needs of the students as they arrive and we are doing that. We also know that our invocation of the capacity of schools in terms of their admission is in very limited circumstances. The important thing here is that every child has access to a place. That is what we are intending to achieve. I have also outlined to the Deputy that it is my intention to gather data to measure how that admissions policy is working, the impact it is having and the available opportunities, going forward. That notwithstanding, it is important to remember that we are talking about children and young people from Ukraine. We are currently meeting their needs and the schools on the ground, full credit to them, are providing the accommodation and places for them.

The Deputy referred to a child in a particular school in Fingal. If that child is moving to another school, the special educational needs organiser, SENO, should already be aware of the child. As I said earlier, there are only seven or eight children in a special class or special school at the moment. The regional education and language teams for Ukraine, REALT, include representatives of the National Council for Special Education and the National Educational Psychological Service. They will be aware of children with special educational needs and should be able to assist wherever they are at the moment.

I hope that in the circumstances of the settling down period this person has had with the supports around them, it will be considered best not to move to a different part of the country because a break in the resource the child is getting is not ideal.

I appreciate what the Deputy is saying. The difficulty is the accommodation in which that person is living.

I take the Deputy's point.

I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials for coming before the committee late on a Wednesday evening. I acknowledge and commend the generosity of the Irish people, the Government and the school communities who have accommodated up to 6,000 children from Ukraine. They have done so seamlessly and without complaint, and that needs to be acknowledged.

The Minister mentioned in her introduction that 6,000 children from Ukraine have now enrolled in schools. Approximately 4,000 children are in primary schools and 1,900 are in our post-primary schools. Do she have any idea of the demand for places in primary schools in September? If not, is that something about which she is concerned or does she think we will be able to accommodate that demand?

I thank the Deputy. As I referenced earlier, we have a clear understanding of where we have capacity within our schools. It was for that reason I said in reply to Deputy Ó Ríordáin that we are working closely with the Department of Children, Equality Disability, Integration and Youth. It would be very helpful if we could match accommodation with our capacity.

It is very hard at this point to be clear on the enrolments that might be required throughout the summer. We know that families are continuing to come. Enrolments will continue over the summer and REALT will be operating. We have roughly 20,000 places at primary school level and approximately 25,000 places at post-primary level. We are currently finalising a survey of primary schools but our geographic information system and data tell us we have in and around 25,000 places. We may well have in excess of that. We are confident we can meet the challenges, notwithstanding these are challenges faced every day by schools on the ground.

I also acknowledge that schools on the ground have always been accommodating of students coming from other places and other countries. The difficulty and greater challenge this time is that it is in such significant numbers and at such high volume. I again acknowledge the schools are generously meeting that challenge on the ground.

Language is another issue that may affect children coming from Ukraine. I suspect the vast majority of them will not be proficient in English and may not even have learned English. Can anything be done to provide language support hours for them? Is that an issue we may need to revisit in future?

I referenced that more than 918 of our schools applied for additional hours under English as an additional language teaching posts, which were granted. We also have the ESOL tutors. These are tutors who make themselves available, and will do so throughout the summer, particularly to adults but also to our post-primary students. We also have initiatives in our schools, for example, the Say Yes to Languages programme for third to sixth class pupils, to facilitate students who arrive and our own students in having an understanding of their language. The Ukrainian language will also be included in that programme from September. There are a variety of different streams, including English as an additional language, the ESOL tutors and the Say Yes to Languages programme. A particular emphasis is being placed on language supports.

I am conscious many adults who have come from Ukraine have academic or professional qualifications. It may be the case people have come from Ukraine who have the academic qualifications to be teachers in Ireland. It is obviously a different education system. The courses are different but these Ukrainians may have qualifications in maths, physics or chemistry. I am also aware the EU Commission agreed a recommendation on 5 April this year in respect of recognition of the qualifications of academic and professional people who have come from Ukraine. Can anything be done to give recognition to people coming from Ukraine who have the academic qualifications to be teachers?

That is a very good point because they will very much enhance provision. We have reached out to those who have teaching qualifications and teaching backgrounds. We have invited them to register with the Teaching Council. A number have already done so. The numbers are small at this point, which is understandable, for a variety of reasons. Some 48 or 49 people have currently registered with the Teaching Council. That is being progressed by that body, which will be a great addition in future.

This is a very significant challenge. I acknowledge the excellent work being done by schools, by REALT and by school communities. I also acknowledge the Department has been under very severe pressure on this. I am sure not everything is perfect but significant work is going on. I acknowledge the work of the Department in ensuring these children who are coming from a very grim situation are getting an education. I commend it on that.

We have talked a little about additional educational needs. The numbers in that regard are small but, generally speaking, when it comes to additional needs, we can be sure the vast majority of children coming to Ireland will have suffered a fairly severe trauma. Some of the impacts of that may take time to play out and it may take time before these children feel they are in a position to articulate that trauma. Are we looking at the budget for additional counsellors within schools, or additional therapeutic supports or anything like that? It is not just about the child. Schools themselves may not have the skills to help or be able to respond to a child's needs in a trauma-informed way. That can be very challenging.

I can see where we are at with the numbers but at some stage in the midst of this, the Taoiseach talked about potentially 200,000 Ukrainians, or at least in excess of 100,000, coming here. It is probably not possible to have a picture in the long term but what has the pattern been for the past month or two? Is there any way of having a projection of the capacity that will be needed within the next 12 months? Is that possible at all?

I will briefly pick up on a point Deputy Ó Ríordáin made on the case of the children in the northside of Dublin who ended up being brought down to Youghal. In addition to all the points made about settling in, a practical consideration is that some of those children had bought a uniform and so on. It might be worth putting out the message that for a while, until there is a clearer picture about where these children will end up, there should be flexibility regarding things such as uniform.

I will make a specific point about secondary schools. Ukrainian children who are coming towards the end of secondary school are in a very challenging place because the learning is of a much higher order. Even the English language support would generally be of a different nature, because people who might require additional support would usually have some, whereas some of these Ukrainian children might have none at all. Are some of them being integrated remotely with Ukrainian education? What way can they be supported? Is it worth those children sitting the leaving certificate or should they be sitting Ukrainian exams? I have no answers to that myself; I am just asking the question.

The Minister engaged previously with the Ukrainian Minister of Education and Science, Serhiy Shkarlet. I engaged with him myself during an online event. One of the matters I brought up with him was that if there are Ukrainian teachers here, one of the challenges may be Garda vetting. I ask for an update on how that is going. Even with the best will in the world, I am sure the Ukrainian police are under very severe pressure, as is the rest of civil society.

On future projected numbers, I reiterate we are clear of our capacity in having a potential 25,000 places at primary school and 20,000 at post-primary. REALT, which has been an invaluable resource to us, and I acknowledge the work of the 16 ETBs in leading that, is liaising very closely with the planning and building unit to manage our projected enrolments. References were made to families still coming over the summer. REALT will have access to the capacity limits and otherwise that are available to the planning and building unit. That will be a useful resource for them as we source places for students as they arrive over the summer to be ready for September.

In respect of the children and young people who come with particular traumatic experiences, to be fair, and I have met many of the students, it is very difficult, especially with the younger ones, to know exactly what they have seen and what their little minds are processing. I acknowledge the work of our National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, psychologists on the ground. Significant work is being done by NEPS on programmes for schools and webinars, in particular its great emphasis on a psychosocial response in our schools. Ensuring that the school environment for children and young people is safe and calm, and a place of connectedness for them, is a point consistently raised with me.

I want to acknowledge that work and any additional supports, and that is not just the supports from a NEPS point of view but across the board. The Department has not been found wanting in making those supports available. In terms of the leaving certificate, the Deputy raised a very good point that many of the students who come here are probably in the upper senior cycle. I want to acknowledge that some of them - just over a 1,000 of them - continue to engage with the online Ukrainian system of education. Again, I want to salute the schools that have made this possible for those who want to do it. Many others are very happy to move into different year groups. The inspectorate is working very closely with the schools in helping them to identify what year groups at the senior level, as raised by the Deputy, are appropriate to the students.

Is the Department looking at exam centres for people to do Ukrainian exams?

That is a fair point on the Ukrainian exams. The Ukrainian equivalent of our leaving certificate, the matura, has been cancelled this year. It is not running. It did not run last year or the previous year either because of Covid. The students were given a type of school completion certificate, or a version of that. They recently confirmed this is their intention this year as well. I want to acknowledge again that we are very happy to work with students in terms of meeting their needs, whatever they are.

I am going to stop the Minister because I am going to bring in Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. We are approaching six o'clock and I have four people to get in. I do not want to give them just two or three minutes each.

Thank you Chair. I wish to note my frustration that we are having a truncated meeting of 45 minutes. I pushed for this session. We are talking about an issue that affects 6,000 children and, by extension, our entire school community. I do not think 45 minutes is enough to cover the huge number of questions I have.

I thank the Ministers for their presentations and for passing along the briefing notes. They raise a large number of questions for me. The Russians invaded Ukraine on 24 February, so we are approaching 100 days since that happened. I said from the start that we would have to think about how we were going to approach this to try to ensure we got the best educational outcomes for the children we knew were going to arrive on our shores. I cannot help but feel we have just defaulted to folding them into our regular school community. If we had considered all factors and decided that was the best approach, that would be fine. I am not sure I see the evidence of considering all of the factors. I accept as in Maslow's hierarchy of needs that we needed to get these children accommodated. We needed to make them feel safe and secure within our schools but I think we need to be thinking beyond that as well.

I note in the briefing note that even when we talk about curriculum, it states explicitly that in the immediate term that we are focusing on ensuring that school places can be secured for students from Ukraine and that in the medium to longer term, the Department is seeking advice from the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment regarding the model of curriculum provision. We are still not at the point where we are considering specific curricular needs. That is going to be complex in terms of planning because the children are going to present as complex in the first place. Obviously, they are coming from a very different cultural and social background but also they are arriving with very complex emotional needs which will have been caused by their trauma. We also need to be thinking about how long these children are going to be staying with us and making educational decisions around that.

I will begin with some questions because I have a large number of questions. There are organisations that have experience in planning for the educational needs of displaced people. UNICEF would be one of the organisations that jumps out in the first instance. Have we engaged with it? Have we spoken to people who have expertise and experience in these contexts? It will not be the exact same context because an Irish primary school is a million miles removed from a Syrian displaced persons camp, for example. Surely there are lessons to be learned from that.

If we have engaged with the Ukrainian education minister, what is it we have learned in terms of what they are hoping for in education not just here in Ireland but across Europe? My third question is on whether we have engaged with education ministers across Europe. Many of these people will arrive first in Poland or Moldova and will then arrive in Ireland and will remain mobile, as has been mentioned, even within our school communities. They may arrive into Dublin or Waterford. Tramore is a good example. Many people were accommodated there first. The schools have done an outstanding job in terms of folding them into the school community but how long with they be in Tramore? We do not know. Have we given any consideration to trying to standardise a curriculum?

Deputy Ó Laoghaire referred to school uniforms. What about school books? As they move from one school to another, are they going to be accommodated? How many of these children who finished school in Tramore, Youghal, Dublin or wherever in June, will be in that same school in September? Are we modelling for that? I have probably 1 million more questions but I will leave it at that for the moment.

In the first instance, I want to acknowledge that there is considerable experience in this country too, which should not be underestimated, of dealing with students and families who have been displaced from different countries and of welcoming them into our schools. It is certainly not at the current level we are being asked for-----

There is a vote. I propose the Minister, Deputy Foley, pairs with someone from the opposition. I could get a Senator to Chair the meeting. Deputy Ó Laoghaire, do you mind pairing with the Minister, Deputy Foley? We can get a Senator to chair the meeting.

We could suspend the meeting.

I would like to get the answers.

I think that should be okay.

I will give the answers in writing.

There is agreement. I propose the Vice Chairman takes the Chair.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin took the Chair.

I am going to suspend the meeting for two minutes until the Ministers come back in.

Sitting suspended at 6.49 p.m. and resumed at 7.10 p.m.

Welcome back. I now invite the Minister to respond to the Deputy's questions.

The Deputy asked about the engagements we have had on behalf of Ukrainian students and I can confirm that initiatives are under way with the Ukrainian ministry, the EU and UNESCO. We are also looking at what is happening in other jurisdictions. We already have considerable experience ourselves of dealing with students coming from different educational backgrounds and systems, albeit not at the level we are dealing with at present. We do have our own unique experience in that respect.

We are co-ordinating with the Ukrainian authorities to provide online access for students who wish to avail of schooling in Ukrainian. Many of them wish to engage in the Irish education system as well. We have, at this point, more than 1,000 students who have availed of the online facilities and I want to acknowledge that our schools have made that possible. There is also the role of our inspectorate who work with the schools on the ground to ensure that the students are placed in the level that is appropriate to their needs. Equally, we have put huge resources into supporting students whose level of access in terms of language might not be what is required. More than 900 schools have been granted additional posts or additional hours, including English as an Additional Language, EAL, tutors, support teachers, and English to Speakers of Other Languages, ESOL, tutors. We also have the Say Yes to Languages programme at primary level where students would make themselves available to learn Ukrainian as a measure to integrate the students. In the main, every possible opportunity that is appropriate to give to students is being provided. We are ensuring that where they wish to draw down the support of the Ukrainian education system, that is made available to them. If digital devices are required or any other supports in that respect, they are being provided. We are also giving them the opportunity to avail of the Irish education system. I have met many parents who came to the schools when I visited and I have met parents in communities as well who have been very appreciative of the opportunity for their children to avail of the Irish education system. It is a marriage of both. We are not in any way prohibiting students from availing of their own accommodations at home or what is being provided here in Ireland.

I will allow Deputy Ó Cathasaigh to ask another question, given that he requested this meeting.

I will be cheeky and sneak in two questions. The Minister said some Ukrainian students are availing of a school completion certificate while they are here. Where does that put them in terms of access to third level education? On summer provision, it has been difficult to find people to work at summer provision. Are we providing something specific around the needs of Ukrainian students? Are we designing a curriculum for it and are we confident that we can staff it?

As I said, we have engaged with the Ukrainian department of education. The Ukrainian mature exam, which is the equivalent of our leaving certificate, was cancelled this year and in the previous two years because of Covid and students are getting a certificate of completion. In terms of third level, there is an online university entrance exam and, as I understand it, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science is engaging with the Ukrainian department of education on making provision for students in that regard.

I have forgotten the Deputy's second question-----

It was on summer provision. Are we designing an English as second language curriculum? Obviously that could be activity based but are we designing it as a curriculum that people can follow and are we confident we can staff it?

On summer provision, the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, has already translated 56 different summer programme documents which should help. There is an inclusion programme at primary level and at post-primary level for mainstream pupils with complex needs and those at greatest risk of disadvantage and that would include children from Ukraine. As I said earlier, for children who are coming here, particularly younger children, an activity-based approach to learning the language is better than more intensive instruction, which would be done at a later age. There is already support available for migrant children and that has been integrated into the summer programme. By the time the summer provision is over we should have a fair idea as to how many Ukrainian children have participated in it. At the moment, they are in the process of enrolling and registering to do it.

There will be qualified teachers graduating this summer who should be able to help in terms of trying to get the participation up and making sure that we have enough staff. Undergraduate students who have registered with the Teaching Council should also be able to support summer provision.

We have also made other provisions in terms of accessibility for the schools. Rather than responsibility for summer provision being undertaken by school principals, there will now be an overseer role as well, which means another individual can take responsibility for it. There will be, for the first time, an online payment made available for staff working on the summer provision programme. Our absolute aim, as the Minister of State has said, is that the maximum number of children and young people are facilitated to avail of the programme.

Senator Dolan is next, to be followed by Senator O'Loughlin and then Deputy Alan Farrell.

I welcome the Minister, Minister of State and officials from the Department of Education and thank them for their time.

Obviously the students coming here from Ukraine have endured a lot of trauma, upset and stress. I very much welcome what the Minister and Minister of State said about the importance of the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, teams and the educational psychologists that are there to support these children. As the Minister noted in her opening statement, more than 30,000 people have come here from Ukraine, including more than 6,000 children. As I understand it, there are approximately 4,000 Ukrainian children in primary school and the remainder are in secondary school.

The Regional Education and Language Teams, REALTs, are important in terms of securing school places. I ask the Minister and Minister of State to comment on whether there have been challenges in that regard. An update provided on 13 May by way of a press release from the Department shows that in my area of Roscommon and Galway, there were 208 children at primary school and 94 at post primary in the Galway area, while Roscommon had lower numbers, with 64 at primary school and just nine at secondary level. Have there been challenges around school capacity? I am very aware of schools in my area where there would be challenges, particularly in some urban settings. How is it working in the more rural schools?

The Minister of State mentioned that the NCSE personnel are a crucial part of the teams that are being rolled out from the ETBs. How is that working from the perspective of the Special Education Needs Organisers, SENOs, and the NCSE? Have there been any challenges in accessing places? I am very appreciative of the fact that St. Teresa's Special School in Ballinasloe got funding for additional accommodation. How do we ensure we have adequate capacity?

The Minister also mentioned educational welfare services, working with the HSE disability services and English language supports, which are absolutely crucial. We are focusing here on children who are under 18 but I have a query based on meeting a lot of Ukrainian families who have been living here for decades and whose grandparents are now coming here. They are bringing their older family members here from Ukraine. Is there any English language support or training through ESOL tutors being offered through the ETBs to them? I accept that this is a little outside the remit of the Department and the primary and post-primary sectors.

I have one other question for the Minister relating to senior cycle students and career guidance teachers. A lot of support is being provided to schools through the REALTs to help students but what about the career guidance teachers and the options for Ukrainian senior level students? Of particular interest is the Further Education and Training Course Hub, FETCH, whereby students can attend local ETBs and do not have to travel, which keeps costs low for students.

I thank Senator Dolan. In reference to the two points she raised, the REALTs have been an invaluable source for working through and finding pathways forward for us in this current situation. I acknowledge their effectiveness and the manner in which they are operating. There are 16 REALTS operating out of the ETBs, with a variety of supports, whether it is NEPS or the linking in with community response or whatever else. The idea is to make access to school places as seamless as possible for children and families.

The Senator referred to the challenges. Capacity is always a forefront challenge in terms of finding suitable places for the students but I acknowledge that the schools have met those challenges. It has been a priority for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to find the accommodation. We know we have specific capacity in certain areas but the REALT has the ability to look at all schools within an area. While there may not be capacity in one or two schools, there could be capacity in a third or fourth school and the REALT will make the necessary provision in terms of transport or whatever access is required for pupils to get to school. This has been an invaluable opportunity for us to make it as seamless as possible for the schools and especially the families concerned.

On English language supports for adults, as the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, said, we are placing particular emphasis on language supports in schools, whether EAL or ESOL, which is made available to the post-primary children. ESOL will also be made available to families, particularly adults, and those opportunities will be available in the summer months. There is capacity in ESOL but online recruitment is under way for additional tutors to take up positions. It will be beneficial to families that they will be almost like a community response to English language access.

I apologise for interrupting but I would like to hear a response from the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan.

On SENOs and special educational needs, the NCSE is part of the REALT and the REALT co-ordinators are engaging extensively with schools, families and housing bodies to ensure any child with an additional need receives appropriate education.

We are talking about 6,000 children. If we take the average that 1% of children require special classes and a further 1% need to go to special schools, we will have approximately 60 children in each category. As I stated, we only have seven or eight Ukrainian children in special classes and special schools because we are not assessing them at this time. The advice is not to assess children when they are coming from war-torn countries but to take the psychological first-aid approach first. NEPS is there to support and as the enrolments proceed over the summer, we will get a better idea of how many children we have. I expect that those with extremely complex issues tend to stay closer to Ukraine because of travel difficulties. We do not have a large number with disabilities or complex needs in the country.

I thank the Minister of State. I ask the Minister to respond separately on career guidance teachers.

If the Minister reverts to the clerk to the committee, we will forward the reply to the Senator.

I welcome the Minister and Minister of State. I thank all of those who have put in place so many positive systems to ensure that Ukrainian students at this time of major trauma have welcome places in schools. I thank in particular school principals and teachers and, of course, the other children in the classes who have made our guests welcome.

I will ask about some particular areas, one of which is the summer programme as there has been comment and queries on it. I welcome the extra funding and support for the programme and the decision to provide special capacity for those who have been displaced. Having spoken to teachers and SNAs, I have a concern about the uptake of professionals to be able to roll out the programme. While it is welcome that the principal does not have to be present, the fact that there has to be a named teacher from each school can be a problem. I understand from SNAs that payment for last year's programme was not made until January of this year. There seems to be a reluctance to take up those positions again. We need to get that right.

The home-school liaison scheme is one of the best programmes in the education system. It has provided substantial support to families and children. Has consideration been given to providing extra home-school liaison teachers to schools with high numbers of Ukrainians? I am thinking of the trauma the children and their parents - it is mainly the mums who are here - have gone through. The connection with the school and community the home-school liaison programme provides is very important.

While most schools have co-operated and tried to ensure that children have places, we are aware of schools that do not have places. I know of a small number of Ukrainian families who have not secured a school place in the community in which they have been placed. I am speaking specifically of Newbridge. The closest school available is in Halverstown. That has been suggested but transport has not been put in place. The young boy in question has been in Ireland for two months now and has not had an opportunity to access education, which concerns me. We need to ensure school transport is in place, particularly in September when the new school year starts.

On plans to support intensive English language learning, we do not know how long the students will be here, although we all hope the war will end soon. There will be a need to rebuild Ukraine. What plans are in place to provide for examinations in Ukrainian and offer intensive English language teaching, particularly for older students who are taking their other subjects through English?

The Minister stated that 49 people had registered with the Teaching Council. I appreciate that vetting and so on are a difficulty. I am aware of three teachers from Ukraine who applied some time ago and have still not heard whether they will be accepted and can start teaching.

On the summer provision, Senator O'Loughlin mentioned an issue with payment. There will be an online claims system for schools to submit payment details for those staff taking part in the school-based summer programme. That should provide for faster and more streamlined payments to staff.

It is important to stress when we are talking about this year's summer provision that extensive consultation was done last year through the inspectorate with advocacy groups and education stakeholders. We introduced a number of measures to encourage schools to participate. All 4,000 schools can participate. I hope the double pay for staff will be an incentive. We appreciate, of course, that staff have been under considerable stress with Covid, and are now dealing with Ukrainian children coming into schools. We have tried to listen to any concerns that staff had previously and reflect those in the new measures. As the Minister indicated, there is an overseer, better preparation times and faster payments for staff. We eased the administrative burden on schools and given greater guidance materials. There is flexibility regarding when schools run the programme, giving them autonomy in that regard. We have also provided for the recruitment of final-year students who are graduating this summer, undergraduates and newly-qualified teachers. We hope that will help as well.

That centralised application process should make a difference. Schools may engage substitute staff and special needs assistants from another school if they are not available in their own school. I hope those measures will make a difference. For Ukrainian children in particular, there is a real opportunity to integrate and have those sort of arts-based activities for well-being, as well as music and drama for language development. It will go a long way in helping them to integrate properly in our schools system.

As we have already said, considerable resources have been put in place in schools for intensive English as an additional language, EAL. More than 918 of our schools have applied for additional resources there either in terms of EAL hours or additional teaching hours. As I referenced, we have the English to speakers of other languages, ESOL, tutors coming on stream, specifically working with senior cycle and post-primary students and wider families. We also have initiatives like the "Say Yes to Languages" programme in our schools, which again will support communication among children and young people.

On the specific point around registration, we have had 48 or 49 who have applied to be registered from a teaching perspective. It is worth noting that some of those applications have been general rather than specific to an area where they might have a qualification. That demands another investigation by the Teaching Council as to what area they might be best suited to. There is a body of work to be done, as well as reference vetting and all of that. It is absolutely the objective and the intention that this would be streamlined as quickly as possible. This would be a rich addition to our schools and we are determined to do it. We must ensure as well that the accreditation would be for the area and appropriate.

There was a specific question on transport and school accommodation being made available. As the committee has already referenced, we have more than 6,000 students and by the time the next numbers come out, we will probably have in excess of those 6,000 students placed in our schools. For a variety of reasons, students present at different times. Some, on arrival, immediately want to go into a school setting and for other reasons, others may wish to take some time, as is absolutely appropriate. Every child's needs must be individualised. I am not sure of the circumstances referenced by the Senator but it is quite an achievement by the schools and regional education and language teams, REALTs, to ensure we have more than 6,000 students placed. There is also an absolute determination from the Department that where accommodation is required in terms of school transport, it is provided, whether that is on a bus route or another route to get them to school. That is the first time the matter has been raised with me and I am interested if the Senator wishes to share the detail. There has been a general acceptance that there has been an excellent job on the ground by the schools and REALTs.

The Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, has dealt with the question of summer provision very well, including the aspects and consultation we have had to ensure it is more appealing for people to become involved in administration or working through it. We will continue that engagement going forward and where there are opportunities to reimagine it or do it differently, both the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, and I are totally committed to doing it. Our singular and sole objective is to ensure the maximum number of children get the opportunity to avail of summer provision. We are very appreciative of the schools and staff currently in a position to do it but maybe there could be opportunities for others if we did things differently or in other ways. The Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, and I will continue to engage on that as well.

I thank the Minister and Minister of State for coming before us. This is a broadly positive conversation about provision for Ukrainian children and I acknowledge the flexibility that the Department has shown on the back of a very difficult period with Covid-19 and facing into another difficult period in accommodating children from Ukraine. The Minister and Minister of State should be commended on the work they have done, along with school communities, teachers and principals who have worked in every corner of the country.

My question has been answered, somewhat, in that it concerns the integration aims that the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, and the Minister, Deputy Foley, touched on with the REALTs. At this stage of the discussion, there could be more very specific questions, notwithstanding the reference by the Minister, Deputy Foley, to the period where some children may need to adjust to our life in Ireland before attending school. Is the Department aware of any children not attending school after a certain period has elapsed? Is there a mechanism to ensure students are either participating in Ukrainian online schooling or in an Irish classroom?

The measures announced by the Government very recently regarding Citywest poses a question. If we put that many Ukrainian families into such a large facility, with over 700 rooms, will it put too much pressure on schools in that community? Related to Senator O'Loughlin's question and the response of the Minister, Deputy Foley, is the question of whether we are confident in the transport systems in place for those children to be bussed to the school to which they have been allocated or which they have selected, depending on availability? Ensuring the children have seamless access to education is critical.

My final question relates to the number of students in Ireland accessing online learning. Do we have a breakdown of that for primary and secondary levels? Is it concentrated in the students' equivalent of the leaving certificate. I note the Minister mentioned that it was suspended. Do we have any Ukrainian students in sixth year in the Irish education system and are they going to be sitting the leaving certificate? What mechanisms have we in place for those students? I apologise if I missed an answer to this in prior questioning.

The Deputy asked the number of students who have not presented to schools and it is our understanding approximately a third of students are in this category for a variety of reasons. It is important for us to allow the children and families to make that judgment call and to suit themselves.

Children may initially have a reluctance to attend but may see others settling into school. We are very happy to go at the pace that best suits the individual child. We estimate the figure to be in or around a third of the total. That may include older students.

I apologise for cutting across the Minister but is that a third of the 6,000 or all the children?

No, it is a third of all children. These could include those aged 18 or so and moved to some other type of education experience or work. Their education might be finished.

I referenced students presenting for exams earlier and the facility is being made available for students who wish to follow the Ukrainian education curriculum. It is interesting to note that although many choose to do that, they also choose to avail of part of the Irish system as well. There are three students who will present for the leaving certificate exam and two who will present for the junior cycle exam. That is my current understanding.

The Deputy asked about Citywest.

I suppose the question could pertain to other facilities of that kind of size.

Absolutely. We are working very closely with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth on this, as I mentioned. There is a clarity from our perspective about where we have clear capacity. It is totally understandable that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has a priority for the families to have accommodation. It is our hope and expectation that as things settle, there will be a greater opportunity for the accommodation needs to match the capacity we have in education. In the short term, our schools are operating magnificently on the ground and rising to the challenge where there may be a greater concentration of families at any given time.

Perhaps there is an opportunity for that to be more streamlined.

Some 1,000 students are availing of the Ukrainian online learning.

Is there any information on that and the supports the Irish education system is or, as the case may be, is not offering them?

I understand it is approximately 1,000. I do not have the full breakdown. As I said, it is interesting to note that they are availing of both, including online. There is an awareness also that for the past three years, there has not been a Ukrainian leaving certificate senior exam. They are mindful of that and are availing of the Irish system too.

I thank the Minister.

In the first part of our meeting, I received correspondence from Cork Life Centre to say that officials from the Department have not met representatives from the centre regarding the future of the school but that they have met to discuss social inclusion. I encourage the Minister to understand members' frustration regarding this matter and their interest in it. We ask the Minister's officials to engage with the Cork Life Centre.

I thank the Minister and the Minister of State for coming before-----

I will just clarify on that. I was asked if there had been meetings and engagements between the Cork Life Centre and my Department. There absolutely has been. Social inclusion also comes under the remit of the Department. I just want to be clear. We were asked the question. There has been no reluctance on the part of my departmental officials to meet with representatives form the Cork Life Centre. I just wanted to reiterate that.

If the Minister's officials could engage with the Cork Life Centre, the members here would very much appreciate it.

I thank the Minister and the Minister of State for appearing before the committee. We have had a worthwhile discussion on both issues. We will suspend proceedings for two minutes while we wait for Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, and his officials to join us.

Sitting suspended at 7.42 p.m. and resumed at 7.43 p.m.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. The Minister is here to discuss education supports and provision for displaced Ukrainian students. I will invite him to make a brief opening statement, if the Minister wishes to make a statement, and this will be followed by questions from members. We will reduce the time slots to six minutes.

I thank the Chairman. I will go through my statement because there is information within it that I want to share with colleagues. I will go through it quickly if that is okay with the Chairman.

I thank the committee for having me and my officials here today. Like the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, and their officials, we are working tirelessly to enact the view of the Irish people and that of the Government to the effect that we must, and we will, be unequivocal in welcoming people fleeing Ukraine. It is our collective determination to deliver on our obligations to support access to education, social income and accommodation. Of course this is challenging. There are no two ways about it, but we are legally obliged to respond and, more importantly, we are morally required to do the right thing.

I am very proud to see that this approach is widely reflected throughout our society and in the education sector. I am also pleased to say that we remain united with our fellow European Union member states in our condemnation of and revulsion at Putin’s war in Ukraine. On 18 March, alongside our European partners, I signed a statement on behalf of Ireland condemning Russia's aggression against Ukraine. The key aim of this statement was to signal support for higher education students and staff in Ukraine and to suspend Russia’s rights of representation on all structures and activities of the European higher education area.

In March, I asked Commissioner Mariya Gabriel, who has responsibility for innovation, research, culture, education and youth to convene a special Education Council meeting in order that we might adopt a common approach and response across all member states on the continuance of access to education. I am very glad this meeting took place. We had a very useful discussion, and it allowed for a clear and united message to be sent to Russia that EU member states are united in their stance on Russia’s illegal, immoral and unjustified war. The Ukrainian Minister also took part in that meeting. The picture of destruction of education infrastructure in Ukraine provides a further imperative for me and for us to respond as generously as possible to the plight of Ukrainian students now residing in Ireland.

Sadly, the numbers fleeing the destruction and violence visited on their homeland continue to grow, and facilitating the significant numbers of people arriving is challenging, not least for the education sector. I would like to put on record with this committee my appreciation for all working in the sector and working with us to address these challenges throughout the period. The Irish higher education sector has been open and generous in its response to the crisis. The sector has worked constructively with my Department to facilitate the further studies of those arriving from Ukraine.

In line with the European Council decision of 4 March, the Government has committed to ensuring access to the labour market and to the education system to qualified persons on the same basis as citizens of Ireland. My officials have written to the Irish University Association, IUA, and the Technological Higher Education Association, THEA, confirming that qualified persons, people from Ukraine residing here, should be treated as Irish students - not international students - in terms of fees.

Furthermore, my officials are examining how these students may be further supported, including financially, to facilitate their continuing education in Ireland. I plan to bring a memorandum to Government to agree additional supports for Ukrainian students within the next few weeks. I am happy to share some initial proposals with colleagues and this will confirm that Ukrainian students will not pay international fees. We will also provide student supports, which will be equal to the SUSI grant scheme. This memorandum to Government will also ensure that displaced Ukrainians living in Ireland can access our post-leaving certificate courses for free. Crucially, additional funds will be made available for mental health services in order to ensure that adequate services are available to Ukrainian students. This memorandum will be considered by Government shortly and I will then be happy to share more details with the committee.

Colleagues may also know that we have tried to co-ordinate the response across the higher education sector. We have established a national student and researcher helpdesk for Ukrainian students, researchers and higher education staff. This has been operational since last month. It is hosted in Maynooth University, and I thank the university for that. It involves all universities and higher education institutions across the State. They have seconded individuals from admissions offices, career guidance support and other areas. It is now a single point of contact for all displaced students who are seeking access to higher education. This will guide applicants through the documentation required to support their continued access to higher education, and the helpdesk will then be able to direct students to a local college equipped to meet their individual educational needs.

In agreeing to fund this helpdesk, I am aware that it is very well staffed by admissions and research advisers, who are the best-placed people to give advice to students and researchers. I am happy to tell the committee that since its establishment, the helpdesk has dealt with more than 500 queries. This number is expected to grow over the summer months. I would encourage colleagues here - and anyone watching these proceedings - who receive calls or emails from students looking for assistance to direct them to the national helpdesk. This is where they will be able to meet with the experts who will be able to look at the individual circumstances and guide them on what is best in the context of the continuation of their education.

I will be honest with the committee and state that one of the biggest challenges we are facing in my Department is the issue of English language supports. English language supports are, obviously, essential to people arriving from Ukraine. The 16 ETBs are offering ESOL courses right across the country in response to demand presenting locally. I am happy to share with this committee details of each ETB contact person. Again, there is a specific contact point within each ETB for the provision of English language courses. Ukrainians wishing to learn English or to improve their English, can contact their local ETB for an assessment of their English language competency in reading, writing, speaking and listening. The ETBs will identify appropriate language and additional learning supports. Of course, this service is free of charge. In some ETBs such as in Kerry, Limerick and Clare, ESOL provision is delivered on an outreach basis in the centres and in the accommodation facilities where Ukrainians are living. This has the benefit of enabling their participation around childcare in a familiar setting but also has the function of providing information and orientation, not only in terms of their education and training options but also in accessing local services.

The ETBs are also exploring the possibility of continuing professional development courses over the summer months to upskill or retrain Ukrainian teachers to provide tutoring services. I saw this work very well in Clare recently where a Ukrainian teacher is now upskilled to teach English to other Ukrainian people. They are also reviewing the possible use of e-college for this provision. Following a survey of ETB staff, Education and Training Boards Ireland ran a webinar on the topic of psychological first aid. This is important. We must remember that these staff are dealing with people who have fed from a war zone and with people who may be presenting with trauma.

We need to make sure that we continue to beef up the provision of English language support. I am being honest with the committee - and it is important that we are honest here - that when I go around the country I hear a variation in the intensity of English language supports. It is provided everywhere and is provided in every ETB. We are in the business of now trying to recruit and train more people so that adults in particular can get that intense level of English language they may require.

I have met some Ukrainians who are very grateful for the English language training being provided but who tell me they could do with more classes more regularly. We are working through that. As colleagues will know, the level of English language competency required to participate in higher education is different from that provided by the ETBs. With that in mind, a working group comprising representatives from the higher education sector has been established to support the acquisition of English language competency for academic purposes. Proposals designed to support Ukrainian students for the coming academic year will be submitted to my Department imminently.

Many people ask me what is to happen in the case of Ukrainian students who have not yet accessed higher education. I refer here to the equivalent of our leaving certificate students. These students have not done a leaving certificate or the Ukrainian equivalent. It has always been clear to me that Ukraine is very keen to maintain its connection with its student population. The Ukrainian Minister has made that clear to me and to my European counterparts. To help maintain this link, Ireland has committed to hosting sessions of this year’s Ukrainian higher education entrance examinations. I am pleased to inform the committee of this. It is quite a significant development. There will be three exams. There will be one exam for entrance into higher education, the national multi-subject test, and two entrance exams for master's level: the master's test for educational competence for admission into master’s degrees and the master’s comprehensive test for admission into a speciality subject. The examinations will be taken online in a dedicated testing centre and my officials are working with the IUA and THEA to source the necessary staff, testing centres and equipment. As of 30 May, only a few days ago, my Department has been made aware of 229 students who wish to take the undergraduate test in July.

There is an ongoing commitment to provide every support possible for Ukrainian citizens who are seeking the recognition of their qualifications. As I am sure is also the case for colleagues, I meet many people from Ukraine who are living in Ireland and who are very keen to work. They want to get back working. Many of them are highly skilled and highly qualified. My Department is responsible for the implementation of the EU directive on professional qualifications and, in that regard, we provide critical support to the work of the appropriate competent authorities by sharing best practice material supplied by the European Commission. This includes working with and supporting these authorities as they implement the recently published Commission recommendation on the recognition of qualifications for people fleeing Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

Where professions are regulated, such as the professions of doctor, nurse and teacher, the decision to recognise qualifications rests with the relevant national independent regulator or competent authority. For example, if a person wishes to practise as a doctor, he or she will need to engage with the Medical Council, while those wishing to practise as nurses will need to engage with the Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland. Ireland has more than 45 such authorities covering a very wide range of professions from surgeons to security door personnel. Many of these authorities have already reached out to engage with the Ukrainian community and have published dedicated material on their websites to support Ukrainians. My Department is continuing to work with our national competent authorities, their parent Departments, the European Commission and other member states on this issue. Through the National Academic Recognition Information Centre, NARIC, Ireland, a service hosted and operated by QQI, advice can be readily obtained on the academic recognition of foreign qualifications. I direct colleagues to that service, which is free of charge, fully online and available in a wide range of languages spoken by Ukrainians. I am very pleased to say that, in addition, SOLAS has scheduled the first of two Ukrainian language Safe Pass programmes with an approved Ukrainian interpreter used to help with delivery. Fourteen people from Ukraine have been granted the Safe Pass to date. As members will know, the pass is required for people who wish to work on a construction site. We have made sure that training is provided in a wide range of languages used by people from Ukraine.

I will also update the committee on another matter, which I am sure we will get into during questions. We are working to ensure that Irish students who were studying in Ukraine can continue their studies here. Approximately 60 Irish medical and dental students were forced to abandon their studies. In the interests of time, perhaps we can come back to that through members' questions rather than dealing with it now.

As the Chair will know, we are also working on making student accommodation available on a short-term basis during the summer period. It is not a long-term solution nor can it be but it may provide a little bit of breathing space as our housing authorities and local authorities work to put longer-term arrangements in place.

I thank the Minister for coming before us this evening. He was very comprehensive in his account of the services and supports available to Ukrainian students. I was somewhat heartened to hear about the mental health supports he has announced, although the details are yet to be agreed. In particular, the psychological supports he very briefly referenced will be key to ensuring that students from Ukraine have the opportunity to complete their studies.

The Minister referenced online learning with regard to entrance examinations for third level for Ukrainian students in Ireland. It is fantastic to know that the Ukrainian authorities are in a position to facilitate that. Will there be academic supports available for those students in Ireland? Online learning is obviously one component. Will academic supports be made available to students who are continuing their studies online, perhaps through the ETB supports the Minister mentioned?

The Minister touched on transport needs. Perhaps he might like to provide a little more information. What supports are being provided for students who are accommodated in a facility in or around a major city while attending a university or third level institution and by what means? The Minister has not actually provided the number of third level students. He might do so. Are there already students enrolled or is that something we can expect in September and thereafter?

The Minister mentioned the assistance with student accommodation. If these students are being treated like Irish students and their families are being accommodated in hotels or reception facilities, they will clearly need transport or student accommodation. Will the Minister drill into that a wee bit?

My final point is on the recognition of qualifications and what I would refer to as language support or additional support in the classroom at primary and secondary level, although that might not be the right term at third level. The Minister referenced the importance of English language training and additional modules of education for those wishing to enter the Irish workforce. Is it the intention of the Department or the universities and third level institutions to absorb academic teachers and third level lecturers into the third level system to support students? There are 6,000 primary and secondary students. I believe 1,500 are secondary students. I did not quite catch the total number but I believe three are doing the leaving certificate. It is absolutely amazing that they would do that after only a few weeks in Ireland. What will happen to them and what supports will be made available if they enter third level education given the precarious or temporary nature of their accommodation? Will the Minister respond to those questions?

The Minister has two minutes and 20 seconds. I am being generous and giving Deputy Alan Farrell six minutes.

The Deputy has hit on a really valid point. We have to recognise that every student is going to be in a different scenario. That is the beauty - if I can call it that - of this national line and contact point. Students can come in have a conversation, say that they were a third-year engineering student, to take a random example, and ask where they fit in the education system, what their options are and what are the local colleges. Crucially, they may want to continue their link with their Ukrainian university online but use a given university's library and attend some tutorials or lectures there. We are very much in the business of facilitating that. At the start, Ukrainian students and ourselves, when we got individual queries, would have to navigate the higher education system and go to the local university. We are now trying to put in place a bespoke plan for each individual student as to what is best for him or her. It is more straightforward with some programmes than with others. Where people are with their medical studies in Ukraine may be very different from where medical students would be at the same stage in Ireland. We are very eager to provide any support for Ukrainian students, including those who are learning online. They may wish to become full-time students in an Irish university, and that is no problem. They may wish to continue to study with their Ukrainian universities but to access some lectures, tutorials or facilities. That is also facilitated.

With regard to transport and accommodation needs, what we might generally call financial needs and supports, without getting ahead of the Government decision, I will say that I have been working very intensely at a European level with my colleague, Mr. Ian McKenna here, to try to use the Erasmus scheme to support students because it provides at least the SUSI level of support.

I will not get ahead of the Government decision, but I have been working intensely at European level, with my colleague Mr. McKenna, to try to use the Erasmus scheme to support students because it provides at least the SUSI level of support. If we can register all Ukrainian students at whatever level they are at, be it postgraduate or undergraduate, as Erasmus students, not only here in Ireland but throughout the European Union, we can actually provide them with a significant level of support through that initiative. I commend Commissioner Gabriel on her work on that.

I will share with the committee some figures I received before coming to this meeting. The national student and researcher helpline has received 535 unique inquiries so far. I will provide a breakdown of where each student is at in his or her studies. Some 266 of them are undergraduates, 40 are postgraduates and 25 are researchers. I can also provide a geographical breakdown of where those queries are coming from.

I should have said that staff are included in the same way as students. The beauty of the Erasmus programme is that it is for staff and students. It is our intention to provide opportunities for any higher education member of staff from Ukraine who is in Ireland to work in our institutions. Ukrainian teachers working at primary or secondary level, as was referenced, could really benefit. I think we will see the same there. They can also register under the Erasmus scheme for staff. I will pick up the recognition of qualifications in the next round.

If there are any outstanding replies, the clerk will send them to the members.

I thank the Minister for a comprehensive opening statement and the briefing document which contained considerable extra information. My first question may lie outside the Department's remit. The Minister said there are 64 full-time Ukrainian students in Ireland and 229 applying for this undergraduate test. However, the figures opening the Minister's briefing document suggest approximately 3,000 Ukrainian people. I am accounting for 300 people participating in third level education, which would only be approximately 10% of the 3,000 figure. Do we know what the remaining 90% are doing? Are they in the International Protection Accommodation Service, IPAS?

It strikes me that the English language skills training course is an extremely valuable capacity to build within the ETB sector. Is that available to non-Ukrainians, as well as Ukrainians? I know there has been an uptake in IPAS applications, as people arrive in from Ukraine. One will always have people who are English language learners. I know from being a language learner and a language teacher that when trying to learn a second language, it is better to be in a mixed language background. Two Ukrainians sitting beside each other in a language setting will tend to speak Ukrainian to one another rather than English, as they are supposed to do.

What the Minister said about the Erasmus scheme was very interesting. It answered a question that I have about how we would fund people coming into third level. There was also reference to the MSCA4Ukraine funding, which is a €25 million direct-aid package as part of the EU response. Will the Minister tell me how that will work? It sounds very promising.

I will send the clerk to the committee a detailed note on MSCA4Ukraine. It will be done through the Irish Universities Association. I will get Deputy Ó Cathasaigh more detail on that. My best answer on the difference in the figures, about which the Deputy is right, is that the larger figure is the number of people who we know fall within an age group that may well be in third level education or likely to access it. That compares and contrasts with the number who have come forward so far. This is a world of anecdote but I have been in many parts of the country recently and have been talking to people from Ukraine. For many people who have fled a war zone, the priorities are shelter, food, family and safety. Only as people begin to settle more in our country will they begin think about what is next. That is why I indicated in my opening statement that I expect the number to grow and for that to converge more in the weeks and months ahead, especially over the summer period, as we begin the new academic year. We are certainly seeing the number of calls to the central point tick up in a way that suggests that is probably the case.

With regard to the English language, anyone who arrives here through section 60 is covered. There is a broader point, which is not for today because I will not have time to answer, about some of the very good things we are doing in welcoming to our country people who have fled war zones. Perhaps we can learn from that more broadly. I am thinking of people from Afghanistan as an example. I met a very good organisation today called Open Door. It works with people from marginalised groups, beyond just displaced people from Ukraine. There are lessons we can learn more broadly.

Does Deputy Ó Cathasaigh want to come back in?

We will go to vótáil. As one of the Whips-----

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh better make sure that happens.

I have a proposal to make with which the Minister might agree. I propose that a member from the Opposition pair with the Minister and one of the Senators take the chair. I will go to the vote and the meeting can continue. Will one of the Sinn Féin Deputies pair with the Minister. Will whichever Deputy pairs with the Minister ask him the question as well?

I am not sure the Whip is amenable to that idea.

He will have to get used to it. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Somebody should probably agree on my behalf as well.

Sitting suspended at 8.06 p.m and resumed at 8.08 p.m.
Senator Aisling Dolan took the Chair.

The opening statement is comprehensive and some of my questions have been answered. I certainly welcome the fact the Erasmus system will be used. Do we have an indication of the figure? Did we get €27 million for Erasmus last year? That has been committed to. That means there will not be any cost to the Exchequer for third level grants. It would purely come from Erasmus. Is that paid the same way as Erasmus, with 80% being paid upfront?

Could the Minister speak to that point, which I think is important?

Yes, it is an important point. It will be paid for in the same way that an Erasmus+ student is paid. They will be Erasmus+ students for all intents and purposes. Support is paid for through the Erasmus+ office in any given higher education instruction. We have to update the Government and subject to the Government decision, we will make this information available through the helpline. I want students to know - and I want public representatives to know for their for own work - that any Ukrainian student at any level in higher education, undergraduate or postgraduate, will qualify to be registered as an Erasmus+ student. That position is not unique to Ireland. It is a good proposal and it has been agreed at a European level. The funding will come through the Erasmus+ programme. We have been asked through the European Commissioner that the money that was due to have been spent later in the programme, in 2027 or so, will be front-loaded to earlier. I think that is sensible. That is how it will be funded, so that it does not place an additional financial strain.

If this information is of use to the Deputy, it just so happens that the Erasmus+ payment is almost identical, if not slightly higher, than that of a SUSI payment. It is therefore quite a good fit. It also shows European solidarity, which is important.

Indeed. It sends out a clear message and it is the right thing. I very much welcome that.

In terms of the anticipated demand, we spoke about how 229 students were to take the undergraduate test. Have we any idea at this stage about the total demand for place, and on which courses the students will be demanding places? What provision have we made for the extra courses that they will be demanding? Can the Minister indicate the type of courses in which they have expressed an interest so far?

Yes. I can give the Deputy a note on this. The first answer is, to be very honest, that we do not, nor could we, have a full sense of the total demand. Deputy Ó Cathasaigh got to the heart of that. We know that more than 3,000 of these people are within the age group that might be considered the typical college-going age. However, only a fraction of that number so far has even contacted the helpline. Therefore, we do not know the full demand. We do not know what will happen in the weeks and months ahead.

We do know, as the Deputy has said, that over 200 students have said that they want to sit what I am calling the matriculation exam. We know from the queries that are coming through the helpline that approximately 50% are for places in areas such as business, engineering, psychology, music and art. Approximately 50% of them are in areas like medicine and computer science. That does not mean that because a person wants to study medicine at first, second or third year that they will automatically slot into a place in medicine at first, second or third year. There is therefore a matching exercise under way by this office as to where the person would fit within the Irish higher education system.

On the issue of places, the number is a small fraction of the overall number of places that we will have available. We are trying to keep the discussion going as to how we will manage that demand separate to the CAO process. This is because nobody wants any sort of them and us mentality-----

-----because that is not what we are about.

To return to the point I raised with Deputy Alan Farrell, there will also potentially be a significant proportion of students who will want to keep doing their Ukrainian programme. Quite a number of universities in Ukraine provide online education. Therefore, they will be relying on our colleges for support, wrap-around services and additional tutorials, rather than being a full-time student there. We are working our way through this on a case-by-case basis at the moment. I will keep the Deputy and the committee up to date on the issue. I get a read out from the helpline and I am happy to share it with the committee on a monthly basis. If it is useful to let the committee see what information is coming through, I would be very happy to do that.

That is good. In terms of the provision for student accommodation, will that be purpose-built on campus? Will it be in the private sector? How are we going to manage that?

It is both. This has been passed to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, which is co-ordinating accommodation. In the first instance, my Department wrote to all of the universities, higher education institutions to ask them to help and to ask them what they could do. Approximately 1,000 beds came through that exercise. A further exercise was done and the Department got the number up to approximately 2,000. In addition to that, and separate to and distinct from our work, a number of conversations have been held between the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and private providers, in other words, people who are not within our direct ambit. That is where that stands. It is a mix of public and private. The figure is approximately 2,000 in the higher education institutions, which are college owned. The figure is approximately 2,000 or 2,500 in the private sector. We are very clear that student accommodation is student accommodation. This is welcome in the short term but it cannot be a medium-term solution, for obvious reasons. However, it can be a release valve or breathing space while other solutions are put in place. Any of the higher education institution combinations that are being contracted or offered are specifically for that summer period.

I want to address the point of the 60 medical students who are returning to Ireland. The Minister referred to this point in his statement. When will we have a clear roadmap for those students, as well as for the dental students who have been studying and who are now coming back into the Irish system? The Minister mentioned that he had been in communication with them. That will be my last question.

I did not get to this question in my opening statement, so I am grateful to the Deputy for asking the question. There is a group of 60 Irish medical and dental students who were forced to abandon their studies in Ukraine for their safety. My officials - and I thank Mr. Ian McKenna and his team - have been liaising with the deans of the medical schools in Ireland. Those deans are currently undertaking an assessment of the medical schools in Ukraine. They are trying to match where the students were with their medical education in Ukraine with the equivalent in the Irish education system. As I have suggested, a key element of this process is understanding the alignment between the Ukrainian programme and the Irish systems of medical and dentistry education. Where issues arise regarding the accreditation by the professional bodies, this will allow us to see how we can best facilitate those who fled in continuing their studies. However, to be clear, we maintain our commitment to ensuring that they can continue their studies. We have written to them or are about to write to them. We have written to them directly as recently as last week. My Department has been painstakingly making sure that we keep in regular contact with them and that we keep them informed. We wrote to them, as my note says, as recently as last Friday. I will send the Deputy and the committee some more detail on this.

I thank the Minister for coming before the committee today. As members have already said, I welcome everything the Department has done to support Ukrainian people coming into the country. It is the right thing to do. I give credit to the Department for that.

Without repeating questions or going into the numbers, I will focus on the point that this situation will evolve. This time next year, we will have a different conversation about the numbers of, for example, mature students from Ukraine who are going into third level education. I raise the issue of people with learning difficulties going into higher education. I understand that at the moment there is not a high number of these people in third level education, and I accept that. However, I am sure that people at any age can get diagnosed with dyslexia. Are there supports for people from Ukraine who have learning difficulties? On the issue of pathways, because I am sure there are different levels of economic inequality in Ukraine just like there are here in Ireland, are there pathways in place for these students to go to colleges, in terms of QQI levels, colleges etc.? My question is probably for this time next year. However, even if we only had ten people going to college, it would be important that we would meet their needs. This is especially the case for people with learning difficulties. I am sure that is tough when English is not your first language, as well having a learning difficulty.

I would be interested to know about interpreters. Sitting here, I do not even know what kind of interpreters there are for people who are deaf, for example. How will we deal with this? I know that I have raised many questions, many of which will need to be addressed next year, rather than here and now. However, I would be interested to know where we are with people with learning disabilities and what supports have been put in place for third level. Those are my questions.

I thank the Senator. Her analysis is right and honest. This is a situation that will evolve, as the Senator noted. We are at the early stages, from the point of view of our sector.

The first thing you need when you arrive in a new country having fled war is not higher education, but accommodation, food, safety, checking in with your family, learning the English language in the community, and getting your kid into school. These are the immediate needs. The front-line response that my Department has been involved in is English language provision in the community. That is going well but it is under a great deal of demand. We need to beef it up and do more. The Senator is right, in that this issue will undoubtedly grow, if that is the right phrase, over the next 12 months.

Regarding a student from Ukraine with a learning disability - the Senator referenced dyslexia - or additional educational needs, I will give two answers. That student will have the same access as an Irish citizen to the range of supports that are in place. Any support that is in place for an Irish student with a disability in college - we will be announcing more policy on this matter tomorrow - will be available to Ukrainian students. They will be treated no differently and will not miss out on any of those supports. We have a fund for students with disabilities that works well in our colleges. In fact, people often tell me that the level of support in higher education compares well to other sectors of society.

I am sorry, but perhaps I was not clear. Are we putting in place additional services or staff to support them?

The student assistance fund will also be available for students from Ukraine to draw down if they have specific needs. In the memo that I am bringing to the Cabinet, probably within the next two weeks, there will be specific funding for additional psychological support services for students from Ukraine. I will reflect on what the Senator has said about whether there is a need to do more. As a country, we have shown that we will not allow money to be a barrier to providing the necessary supports. I am satisfied that, between the fund for students with disabilities, the student assistance fund, the Erasmus+ scheme and the psychological supports, which will entail additional money, we will be able to meet the aim of ensuring that everyone can continue in education regardless of additional needs.

The Senator and I both referenced the English language. There is a difference between providing the English language for someone who wants to continue in academic studies and general English language provision. We have a working group, which will conclude shortly, on what we need to do for the student, who could be at an advanced stage of his or her studies, for example, a masters, and needs the English language in an academic setting. The committee can expect proposals from my Department on this matter shortly. We will share them with the committee.

Since the Senator has no further questions, I might get to ask a few questions now, at least until the other members return and I get ejected from this seat.

I welcome the Minister and thank him for attending. It is a traumatic situation for the people coming to Ireland from Ukraine. We discussed this matter with the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan. It is excellent to see what is being put in place to support these people.

The Minister, Deputy Harris, spoke about trying to identify the numbers. We know of 6,000 - 4,000 going into primary school and approximately 2,000 going into secondary school. The number doing the leaving certificate has been mentioned. I understand that approximately 250 students have stated that they would like to sit the Ukrainian entrance exams in Ireland. It is phenomenal that we are able to host those exams, so I wish to pay tribute to the Department, THEA, the IUA and the universities that are supporting that.

Even though they are more for the other Department, the Minister might have some thoughts on questions that I asked in our previous session. I raised some interesting questions about the secondary school career guidance teacher's role in respect of Ukrainian students. I do not know how many of the 2,000 are at senior cycle level. As the Minister mentioned, the role of ETBs is important. There are colleges of education in many towns around Ireland. The breakdown of where these secondary level students are shows that there are more than 250 in County Galway, for example. How can we deliver courses where the costs are lower, the students do not have to travel and they can do pre-nursing courses or other early study courses to reach level 5 while also doing their English language courses so that, in the following year, they will be able to engage with third level fully instead of all of the pressure being applied immediately?

The national student and researcher, NSR, help desk is fantastic. It has dealt with more than 535 queries, which is amazing. It can just be contacted via phone and email at the moment, though. Does it have a web page yet or is one going to be set up? Something with FAQs would be useful, particularly when everyone is googling and doing quick searches.

The Minister stated that students from Ukraine would be treated the same way as Irish students, they would not pay fees and SUSI supports would be available. He also stated that post-leaving certificate, PLC, courses would be free for them. That would be fantastic.

Regarding grants under the Marie Skodowska-Curie Actions, MCSA, the Minister referred to €25 million in direct aid at European level to fund fellowships. This is crucial. There is such a level of education in Ukraine that we can only benefit. When I had a chance to visit the Donamon Fáilte Centre in Roscommon, I met many young people from Ukraine who were chomping at the bit to give something back to the community. Be it fellowships, competency courses or something done through the National Academic Recognition Information Centre, NARIC, that will be crucial.

The Minister referred to queries from approximately 25 researchers and he spoke about the specific English language competency for academics and researchers at that level. In some science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, subjects, English is the international language. Are specific sectors being considered? University research teams can be very international.

The Senator is right about career guidance. We have linked in and are utilising the ETB career guidance service. I am grateful that the Senator mentioned ETBs because it provides me with an opportunity to thank them. I have visited quite a number of ETB centres in several counties over the past month and have been blown away by the level of work they are doing and the skills on show across the range of programmes that they offer. With SOLAS and using translators, they provide Safe Pass classes. They also provide access to cookery classes. I met many women displaced from Ukraine who were teaching our learners about their national foods and exchanging ideas. Nice intercultural work is happening. The ETBs are also ramping up provision of English language teaching. The further education and training, FET, colleges are playing a major part and the work is already happening. The Senator is right about the appeal – it is local and we have waived the fees, so there is no cost.

Regarding the NSR help desk, there is no web page at the moment because we are trying to use gov.ie, which has a Ukrainian section to co-ordinate everything. We will keep the matter under review. At the moment, though, it is an email address and a phone number. The FAQs should be on gov.ie, but if there is a gap that people believe we need to fill, they should let me know.

I have stated several times that students coming from Ukraine will be able to access all of the same supports, including SUSI. To be clear, they will not be accessing SUSI. Instead, they will be getting the equivalent of SUSI through the Erasmus+ programme.

No. I needed to clarify that, given my previous comments about SUSI. They will get the SUSI level of support through the Erasmus+ agreement that we have reached at European level.

The Acting Chair and Deputy Ó Cathasaigh raised an issue about research. We are in receipt of a proposal from a university working with the Irish Research Council, IRC, and Scholars at Risk for funding to support displaced Ukrainian researchers, but we are awaiting further developments from the European Commission on the operation of the additional funding. The IUA is the contact point for the scheme. It will form part of the brief for the NSR help desk, which will then become the contact point. In another good European initiative, there are specific bursaries for researchers from Ukraine. I will send the committee a note on that.

Deputy Paul Kehoe resumed the Chair.

We discussed the entrance exam into higher education and a national multi-subject test. Will those apply to entry into Irish third level institutions as well so that there will be a pathway for people taking the qualifying exam?

Senator Dolan referenced some FET work. There has been a great deal of discussion about the promotion by this committee and the Minister of the apprenticeship pathway. Will that be available to, and supported for, Ukrainians?

I wish to ask something about the 3,000 people in the age range in question, although the Minister might not have this information. I imagine that there is a stark gender breakdown and that they are predominantly female.

I may be wrong in that. If we are offering further education opportunities or apprenticeships, are we trying to promote those in the right way to get the right people into the right courses?

I thank the Deputy. Yes, that entrance examination, the leaving certificate equivalent if you like, can and will be a route into third level education. We have talked a lot about CAO reform and how there must be other pathways. The university system takes in many students through the mature student application route every year so it is not without precedent that there would be another entry route. This is one for Ukrainian students. It is what people want and expect us to do and it is the right thing to do.

The apprenticeship scheme is open to Ukrainians. I do not have data here and I am not sure we compile data but I will check. I have met Ukrainian students in colleges of further education doing apprenticeship courses and pre-apprenticeship courses. We very much need more apprentices. Anybody here in Ireland is very welcome to get involved and will be supported to do so. The ETBs will be instrumental in helping with that work. I will reflect and feed back what the Deputy said. The overwhelming number of people of adult age who have come here are female and I would be very surprised if the position was dramatically different in this age group. I will discuss and consider how we reach out to this group.

I will not keep the Minister long. As with the previous Department, I commend the work being done by his Department and people on the ground in further and higher education institutions to support people in the area of English language. It is obviously very important.

While it is not the same with respect to scale, Ukrainians are not the only refugees. I think of the people fleeing horrendous oppression in Afghanistan. Ukrainian students will not pay international fees and students supports will be provided to match the SUSI scheme. Will that also apply to Afghan refugees?

To the best of my knowledge, it is specific to Ukraine at the moment. I alluded earlier to the fact that a policy question will have to be addressed in this regard because these matters relate specifically to people who are displaced in Ireland and under the protection directive issued at European level. It may present a significant policy contradiction as regards how other refugees in this country are treated but these supports currently apply to people who have entered from Ukraine.

The Minister is right. If the Afghans were programme refugees, as the Syrian refugees were, perhaps they would qualify. I understand that to be the case and they would enjoy particular entitlements.

I do not understand the exact modalities of how the protection directive applies to Ukraine but the oppression and suffering Afghans have suffered is no less and in some instances may be greater. It is invidious to try to compare conflicts in any event-----

-----but, either way, I ask the Department to look at that. The numbers involved are not enormous. I am aware that when people come here and seek asylum there has to be a determination made of their status and everything connected to that. I also know there are scholarship schemes at certain universities run for people in direct provision. Having said that, I do not believe we can continue to deal with this issue in an ad hoc way. I will leave that question but I ask the Minister to continue to-----

I will do that. The Deputy is right. A universities of sanctuary initiative is run through a number of universities. We have made significant changes to the level of financial support available and made it easier for people in direct provision to qualify for support in higher education. However, I also want to be honest with the Deputy. We have the Dr. Catherine Day report on this issue and we are not where we need to be on this and it would be dishonest for me to suggest we are. I will consider the issue of those who come here from Afghanistan and revert to the committee on it. I also want to be honest about the legal framework that applies to people entering from Ukraine under the protection directive. Let me revert to the Deputy on the matter.

I gave that example because I had an experience that caused me to reflect on the situation. I visited a number of schools in Waterford and at one school I happened to ask the principal if the school had any Ukrainian students. He said he had been late to meet me because I was finding a place for two Afghan children. It is just that we should not forget those children either.

I emphasise the point made previously that Ukrainian students coming here will in many instances have suffered severe trauma. The Minister alluded to mental health supports. I emphasise that point on which I do not need a response.

The issue of apprenticeships has been addressed, as far as I can gather. When tradespeople who arrive here need their papers, does that fall under the remit of the Department? For example, electricians must register with a certain body. I think it is called Safe Electric.

Yes, that is right.

They must register with some board or other. We have a trade shortage. Are there tradespeople who could come into our system?

Yes, recognition of qualifications and the like fall under the Department. The Deputy will be delighted to know that there are approximately 45 competent independent regulators and authorities within that. To give an example, SOLAS, which deals with many of the trades and crafts, is operating a system where an individual who comes to Ireland with a foreign qualification, trade or apprenticeship can apply to it to have these qualifications assessed for their equivalency. We are doing that at the moment. SOLAS is individually assessing the equivalency of each applicable construction skill qualification received. This is being done under a specific statutory instrument. SOLAS is also seeking to provide, where required, opportunities to take any reskilling or upskilling course that may be required. To be blunt, we want people who have trades here to be able to work here. They want to work and we want them to work.

I do not wish to use up the Deputy's time but the position is similar in the case of nursing. The Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland and the Medical Council are working through issues. It might be useful if I provided some of the notes I have to the committee. It is basically about each independent regulatory or competent authority, which is SOLAS in the case of the trades, working through what we have from Ukraine and how that measures up with what we have here. It is also about trying to be practical in recognising that when people have fled a war zone they may not necessarily have the paperwork. Work is ongoing on that assessment process.

I thank the Minister.

I will be brief as I am aware we are near the end of the meeting. What assessments have been done on the impact the influx of students will have on our education system? It is my understanding that we are talking about more than 40,000 students in the education system. We have never been faced with these numbers before. I am concerned in responding to one crisis that we do not cause another. What level of planning and assessment has been done?

On collaboration, I recognise and welcome that there is collaboration with SOLAS on the apprenticeship issue. Is there collaboration with the boards of the individual universities?

I am also concerned about special needs. Our resources are seriously stretched. How will students get support at third level? Will that have implications for the students who are already receiving the supports within our system? Does it mean they will get less or do we have additional experts and trained people going into that area to cover the numbers that will be needed? I am concerned about that, in particular, the overall assessment.

The short answer is that this is about additionality and working to ensure we put an individual support and information structure around anybody who comes here. I can only speak for the numbers in further and higher education. So far those numbers have been quite small and especially so in the context of the overall numbers. There are probably around 500,000 people in third level education in Ireland and we are talking about 535 calls to the helpline. I expect that number to grow and as Deputy Ó Cathasaigh reminded us, slightly more than 3,000 people between the ages of 18 and 24 years have come from Ukraine. From our point of view, it is very much about putting additional support in place. For example, when I go to Government in the next two weeks I will seek additional funding for psychological services in recognition that a higher education student from Ukraine will obviously have fled a war zone and the pressures that will bring. That is the space we are in.

That is fine. I thank the Minister.

I thank the Minister for that response. I also thank him for coming before the committee today. It has been a very productive discussion on an important issue. I apologise to the Minister's officials for the delay in starting the meeting and for keeping them so late. They should have been long gone by now. We will adjourn until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 14 June 2022, when we will meet in private session first and then go into public session.

The joint committee adjourned at 8.41 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 14 June 2022.
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